October 15, 2024 • 36 mins
What happens when a $6 billion medical billing company faces rapid growth? Join us as industry leader Greg Martinez from Athelas shares strategies for maintaining team morale and trust under pressure. Through personal stories, Greg highlights the importance of understanding the "why" behind daily operations and working alongside passionate individuals. He reveals how adaptability and the right mindset can turn chaos into opportunity, even in high-stakes situations.
Key Takeaways:
- Maintaining team morale and trust during rapid growth
- Turning chaos into opportunity through adaptability and mindset
- Overcoming friction points with trust and open communication
- Leveraging diverse perspectives to innovate in healthcare technology
- AI's role in streamlining tasks and enhancing decision-making
- Speed and transparency as drivers of product development and trust
Virtual Rockstars specialize in helping support or replace all non-clinical roles.
Learn how a Virtual Rockstar can help scale your physical therapy practice.
Subscribe here to our completely free Stress-Free PT Newsletter for your weekly dose of joy.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
One of the challenges rock stars, when we grow our
company that we face is theresistance that we get from our
team.
Have you ever tried that before, where you try to grow your
company and it starts to burnout the current team?
Maybe there's even people onthe team who aren't the best
fits, who use that opportunityto make their complaints vocal
and bring the morale down.
Well, today's episode is foryou.
Complaints vocal and bring themorale down.
(00:25):
Well, today's episode is foryou.
This is Greg Martinez fromAthelas, a $6 billion medical
billing company wanting to gopublic in the next four years.
That type of growth is sointense that it's nothing I've
ever seen before and, as aresult of that, greg's going to
share the lessons learned fromgrowing a company that
aggressively and that strongly.
It will shock you how theyapproach growth and will give
you inspiration on how you cantalk to your team in a way
(00:48):
that's going to be collaborativebut also not be slowed down by
the resistance that we get fromsome of the people on our team.
My hope is that you'll learnhow to grow in a way that will
make your life easy.
Enjoy the show All right.
Well, greg, we've had a greatconversation about the secret to
success.
Why don't you share what youthink success looks like for you
professionally?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think one is the passion onwhat it is that you actually do
right, the why behind theday-to-day grind, but more so
the combination of the why withthe people that you do it with.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, and that's what we were talking about.
This idea that, like, who we doit with really matters 100%.
Describe that for me.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
I didn't know that I cared thatmuch about it until we started
scaling things right andexpanding our team and you hire
all these people and yourecognize they have these
attributes and characteristicsthat can help you succeed.
But more so, what I foundfulfillment is in is seeing them
be successful, so theirfamilies are taken care of, and
(01:51):
when you care about them asindividuals and humans and you
enjoy spending time with them,and then their success actually
means more to you than justhitting a number or achieving a
goal, then work doesn't feellike work anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah Well, you have to do that because what you're
doing right now is so intenseand your team is so amazing.
I was surprised, you know, withour billing company, katie and
I, we were just amazed and we'vesaid this to everybody as big
as your company is, how personalit is.
The most amazing individuals,daniel, kevin, like so many
people that, and everyone youmeet.
(02:27):
They're so amazing.
How did you guys find eachother?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
It's a good question.
It's a really good question.
It's kind of like thoselifelong things that you talked
about, right?
So Daniel is one of thosepeople, for me for sure.
He was my last student.
His last clinical rotation wasin my practice and we just
talked about business and ideasand big picture stuff and what
was wrong with the field and whywe couldn't make an impact on
it right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(02:50):
And so the first time I gotapproval to actually create this
clinical team inside ofAthellas, he was the first
person I called and I knew he'dcome.
He immediately gave his noticeand you know, he's been my
right-hand guy since that dayand if anything were to change,
we'd go everywhere together,like we are going to work
together in the future, nomatter what.
(03:11):
And then others have beenclassmates, I mean our first
three people we hired.
Todd was my classmate in PTschool, one of my closest
friends now, and then Jordan wasactually I grew up with his
family's brother and he was oneof my assistants, my aides, and
I wrote his letter to PT schooland those are the first three
letters we made.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
So you've known these people forever.
Is the relationship moreimportant than the skill set?
Because, I mean, these werereally intense positions that
you've hired them for at Othello, a $6 billion company.
Your scaling goals are superhuge.
Your vision, of course, is totake the PT industry and use AI
to totally transform theirrevenue cycle.
So when you're bringing peopleover, my first thought is like,
yeah, I'm sure Daniel is amazing, but how did you know he'd be
(03:50):
amazing at this?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And you don't always.
Honestly, the true answer is youdon't know, right, you can't
know exactly, because when wescale this quickly in a business
like this and the valuationcontinuously expands, right,
right, you just adjust on thefly.
You do what you have to doevery single day and it's a
little bit different.
You just have to recognize likeit's not going to be perfect
and structured and that's okay,like living in chaos is how it's
(04:14):
going to go, and I thrive inthat, I love that environment.
So you can't know, but I doknow that, from a skillset
standpoint, like he thinksoperationally, he understands
big picture, he's strategic,yeah, and you can't teach
someone a thing like that, so Iknow he's going to figure it out
.
And also, he's super driven andvery reliable and it's like
(04:36):
that's more important thananything else to me, right?
And the rest of them, from arelationship standpoint, it's
the same thing.
Yeah, I trust them.
As humans, we can teach themthe skill set They've translated
their provider skill sets, very, very quickly into a sales
management role in less than ayear.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's amazing and it's such a cool concept because
you have these two things atplay that are really famous
concepts.
So, rockstars, as you'relistening, one thing that we
talk a lot about is that youhire on mindset and you train on
skillset.
So that's what you're talkingabout with Daniel's strategic,
high-level thinking capabilities.
You know him well enough toknow that piece.
But the second thing is trust.
My favorite book of all time forbusiness no kidding is a book
(05:16):
by Stephen Covey Jr called theSpeed of Trust.
It's actually not thatwell-known Everyone knows his
dad for Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People.
But the speed of trust was toldto me by one of my mentors as
his favorite book and I thoughthe was exaggerating.
And I read it and I was likedude.
This is so crazy, because whenwe have trust with our team
members, you can really lean oneach other.
(05:38):
For all the hard stuff and Iknow for me as an owner, greg
like the hardest things was andI couldn't trust that someone
would show up every day.
I couldn't trust that they werelike.
The person I was hiring wasn'tgoing to talk crap about me when
I made a mistake, but it's soeasy to pick on the leader in
that group, and so the trustthat you guys have with that
team is evident, as as is provedby the fact that I see you guys
(06:00):
talking to PTs and they're justtotally feeling that connection
, despite the fact that you arebacked by a very large company
in artificial intelligence.
Yeah, yeah, so, man.
So every quarter, obviously,you guys focus on growth.
So what challenges do you guysface on those relationships, as
you're, you know what I mean,because there's so much stress.
(06:20):
How does that stress therelationships that you've built?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, it's honestly, it sounds cliche, yeah, but when
you go through these reallychallenging situations together
and you win right, you hit thesegoals that seem unattainable at
the time and in the last second, seem impossible.
And you know personally, it'snot exactly what I'm talking
about.
Firstly, is that exactly whatI'm talking about?
Like it builds this increasedlevel of trust and camaraderie
(06:49):
and just buy-in right to eachother and to this bigger picture
of what we're building togetherthat it's like, hey, I would go
to battle with you whereverwe're at right, and it's just
become so much more bindinglong-term because you've done
something so hard together thatyou can't experience any other
way.
Right, if it was easy, itwouldn't be the same at all.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Right, you wouldn't have the strength of the
relationship.
That trust gets re-fortified iswhat you're saying, 100%.
So do you ever have frictionpoints?
Do you guys ever have pointswhere there's like you have to
talk things out, or All the time.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I mean, the challenge with scale, right, is you can't
map things out perfectly and sothere's never like a fair, just
way to have everybody benefitequally as we grow, create new
territories, create new teams.
You know scale at a really,really fast pace, right?
We're over 50 providers, yeah,and to do that and keep it fair
(07:44):
for everybody is impossible.
So you have to have thoseconversations of like hey, you
have to recognize early on myintention is not to harm you.
I would do anything possible tohelp you be successful
long-term here.
But you have to recognize, asmuch as we try to keep it fair,
it can't ever be perfect.
If you trust me enough toremember that and give a little
bit here and there so we can allwin together, it's going to
(08:08):
work out in the end, you know inthe wrong run.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Okay, I love that.
How it came back to trust too,because you know you have that
trust with people saying you cantrust.
I'm not intentionally trying tohurt you, yep, because we're
organizing chaos, which is all.
Growth is Right.
We're taking this unorganizedmatter and we're organizing it
to grow or scale.
We're in this position wherethere's going to be lots of
mistakes.
(08:30):
That's one of my favoritethings that I've heard is we're
either learning or winning,right, and so the learning is
more like what others would callfailure, maybe friction within
the team.
Have you guys ever broughtsomeone on?
That's not a fit.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, and again, the intention.
I will literally tell everysingle person I interviewed this
right, Our intention is to makethis a win-win.
You need to be interviewing usas much as we're interviewing
you.
Yeah, this has to be along-term fit for both sides and
unfortunately sometimes itdoesn't work out and what we try
to do is paint that path andpicture for them to say, hey,
our intentions were good, we dideverything we could to make the
(09:04):
best fit possible, but I thinkwe both recognize this probably
isn't the best path or fittogether long-term.
How do we help you find abetter opportunity moving
forward so it does happen?
It's, again, not been verycommon, luckily, thus far, but I
think the odds show that it'sgoing to happen sooner or later
on occasion.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Well, what's cool about that, too, is, I think,
that a lot of times, when wethink that we have a dream team
going, that we don't havefriction points, and that's
quite opposite.
A team, for it to grow and scale, well, clearly has to be
growing is one of the thingsthat you're saying, yep, and so
you're in this environment withAthelas, where you guys are
growing super fast.
You've got lots of energybehind it and I will say this
(09:44):
all the way up to yourleadership.
You know, hirsch and theseamazing people that like kind of
make you feel stupid, to behonest, like I'm twice their age
and they're like super humansand you just, but they're so
kind you can't dislike them.
(10:04):
Like they're just, but it's theidea that, like you have this
trust, but you also have theseclear focuses on outcomes that
allow you to have these safearguments about, like, what's
going to be productive and whatwe should do or shouldn't do,
because everyone knows andtrusts that, at the end of the
day, they're all wanting thesame for all.
They all want everybody to win,and so I think that is
something that people getconfused with when they have
teams that, or they've neverexperienced a dream team they
think that that's just notpossible at all.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, no, I agree a hundred percent, and I think
it's fascinating.
It makes me think of two things.
Number one is, again, you haveto be aligned to the big picture
because, it will never beperfect, like we talked about.
Right, you cannot expect thingsto just run smoothly.
You have to be willing to adaptall the time and recognize that
, not if, but when things don'tgo the way you hoped they would.
(10:45):
That is not personal.
It's going to happen and youcan control how you respond, but
not all the circumstances thatyou're put under.
The other thing is fun for meis PT was so amazing.
You know how passionate I amabout our profession Totally,
100%, believe in what we'redoing.
Some of the dynamicrelationships that I've been
(11:08):
able to, like experience at acompany like this.
I don't know how to really put avalue.
How do you measure the valuelong-term to working with
someone like you just mentioned?
Yeah, right, and it's not evenjust like their resume, because
resumes are crazy.
Right, there are people fromall over every Ivy league school
you can imagine, from fromHarvard and Stanford.
You know they're amazing.
(11:29):
But to sit in the same room aspeople that think and see things
a different way than you and toabsorb the way that they
analyze and process things andthen bring our own personal
experience to the table and seethose things kind of mesh
together is a pretty excitingexperience, right, and in PT it
becomes so common because we'realways with the same people all
(11:50):
the time.
It's not necessarily bad, it'sjust not the same experience,
right.
And so they needed a bridgebuilder, right.
They are so smart, so good attechnology, so good at
automation.
They think of things in waysthat providers don't, yeah, but
they're also building tools forproviders, right.
So they had to have a connector, a bridge, between end user and
(12:12):
most brilliant minds in theworld, yeah, and we created that
bridge of value that couldn'thave come in another way, and so
our value is great.
It's just very different thanwhat they bring, and when you
put those together, it becomessomething great.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, I love that story because we sometimes get
trapped by being too similarwith each other, but the thing
we don't want to be afraid to be, the thing that matters most in
being similar in thinking, isvision Like values and vision,
because even if one person's atech background and I'm a
healthcare background, if weboth want to disrupt physical
therapy and make it the leaderin musculoskeletal industries, I
(12:48):
think there's a hugeopportunity in my world.
When I started getting coachingback in 2008 for physical
therapy ownership, I almostwalked away right Like it was
just too hard.
I got to this point where mywife said why don't you get a
coach?
And there was no coaches inphysical therapy that I could
find.
There may have been, but like Inever found them.
So I joined Entrepreneur'sOrganization EO.
(13:09):
It's the largest in the worldfor just business networking and
they train you.
They'll give you a mentor 5,000a year, so kind of like this
low expense but high impactexperience.
None of the people who coachedme were in physical therapy and
I'm so grateful for that.
Having a CPA talk to me aboutnumbers, having a roofing
construction worker tell meabout team building Like you
(13:31):
just never know what valueeveryone has.
But the big thing was, we'rewanting to help people and make
a difference.
And when you're at Athelas, Imean it's really interesting
because what you're doing thereis.
It's always been interesting tome that you guys are
hyper-focused on physicaltherapy, right, like you have AI
, you're focused on revenuecycle as well as a handful of
other things.
Now, sure, why did you guyslike double down on PT?
(13:53):
Because a lot of critics wouldsay why would anyone double down
on PT.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
It's a totally fair question and again, the obvious
answer at the service level isthat I was the first provider
they hired.
That was my background, thatwas my network, it was what I
knew, what I was familiar with.
And at the time you have tojust say, hey, we're building
this new tool, this suite oftools.
We need someone to use it.
Yeah Right, it yeah Right.
And early on it's like how canwe get in front of people as
fast as possible?
And that's my network.
(14:20):
So it started just like great,this is convenient, right.
Then what we learned down theline and again that's the honest
answer is that's my network.
That's why we started.
I am biased.
I'm going to continue to pushfor PT.
Yeah, I want us to have thegreatest tools and skills you
know and opportunities possible.
But down the line they saw thatPTs have a lot of opportunity
in private practice.
(14:40):
Most other medical specialtiesdon't have as many private
practice opportunities.
They're part of a largerumbrella system, like working at
a hospital.
But PT is so common to justbreak off and say I'm going to
create my own thing and I'mgoing to figure out how to run
this thing on my own and I'mgoing to scale it and very few
(15:04):
other medical professions orspecialties have that many
entrepreneurs that are justbuilding something great with a
really, really diverse skillsetlike PT, and so I think it
aligns really well with howwe're building.
They think the same way.
There's a lot of synergy andit's made sense.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I love that you have that.
It's so cool because we did anepisode last week with someone
by the name of Tim Spooner.
He's got the largest privatepractice owner here in Arizona
and he was talking about howthis is the single best time to
become a PT and start a practice.
And the reason being is becausewhat we don't realize as PTs is
that this is a $600 billionindustry called musculoskeletal
(15:38):
stuff.
Versus musculoskeletal recovery, versus just the physical
therapy rehab portion, that'slike 30 to 40 billion, sure, so
there's this massive industry tocome in.
So I think that's another reasonwhy Athelas and other larger
companies are starting to really, you know, jump in here,
because you guys jumped inbecause you grew where you were
planted.
They planted a guy named Gregand he grew from PT.
(16:00):
So that's where you continuegrowing.
But now, as you guys aregrowing and scaling, there's
just tremendous opportunity fordisruption, scaling and man,
what you guys do in the AI spaceis so fun.
So I know a lot of people aregonna be tuning into this
episode because they want tohear about how AI functions with
revenue cycles.
So talk to me about that.
What does AI?
What does that even mean?
(16:20):
Artificial intelligence helpingpeople get their money as
physical therapy practice.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's so broad.
There's just so many places youcan start.
Yeah, I think the easiest wayto explain it is to think about
the repetitive or monotonoustasks that are generally
required to successfully createand submit a claim and then
actually get paid on it in atimely manner.
Yeah, right, there's so muchrepetitive patterns that have to
(16:47):
go into place in order toactually get paid fairly.
Yeah, so the question becomeswhy do we have to do that every
single claim, every single time,and then adjust that for each
payer individually?
Can there be a way to automatethat, right?
So the simple way of looking atit is do monotonous tasks at
scale immediately.
Let's take that piece out rightnow, right, yeah, and then,
(17:08):
when you start automatingportions of it, what you start
to get is data, and when youhave data, you can make more
informed decisions aboutefficiency.
And then you drive yourdecision-making process based on
actual results and objectivenumbers that are coming from
some of the automations you'vestarted and that drives more
automation.
And so it's gone from.
Hey, you know, we could probablystreamline querying portals for
(17:32):
remittances and the numbers wethrow out, right, like, we're
going to get these 1,800remittances in about six seconds
.
So we scrape these portals, getthe data we need, post them
directly back into our platformand it's called Insights, and
that would take a human abouttwo weeks working full-time,
nonstop doing right.
And so I was like, wow, that'sreally amazing Now that we can
do that, how do we drive thatdata we're getting from
(17:55):
remittances or eligibilitychecks right Into more
purposeful or meaningfulautomations, right?
And then it just starts to addon to that and the next layer
comes, and then we get userslike physical therapists and
practices starting to use it andthey say, hey, this is amazing,
what if you used it in this way?
And then our engineers like,that's a great idea, let's,
(18:16):
let's try it right, because youhave so many engineers that can
adapt, so fast, so many.
We ship new code every two weeks, jeez.
So we have well over 200engineers full-time engineers
now based in the Bay Area and,again, top talent in the world.
Right, it's like we'rerecruiting from.
We can now handpick theseengineers from Facebook and Uber
(18:37):
and SpaceX and you know allthese Bay Area companies and
plug them into something that'straditionally so boring, like
nobody likes to do billing,right, no one.
But if we plug in automation,llms, large language models
right, these automations, like,they get to move faster than
they did at Google.
Yeah, right, they're iteratingthat quickly.
Yeah, faster than they did atGoogle.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, right, they're iterating that quickly.
Yeah, because those are suchlarge companies, yes, you guys
have they get to reallyimplement change and see it
impact immediately, exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Exactly.
And again they get to be on thefront lines of like wait a
minute, here's a use case forsomething I can build that could
be immediately implemented intoa practice.
We see results from that sameday.
Same day, that's fun, yeahRight.
And so now billing isn't likeugh, this old drawn out,
monotonous, boring task.
(19:30):
It's like I could buildsomething great that could be
used at scale immediately, likeI want to work for a company
like that.
And then we grow that quicklyand it's like great.
Now there's opportunity forequity and progression and
everything else.
And then you have these teamsthat just get bigger and bigger
with higher and higher levels oftalent, and it becomes this
(19:50):
momentum that's just hard toslow down.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Dude, I love hearing the enthusiasm on the back end
from your perspective, Becausehere's where I get excited about
it.
It's from my misery of being abusiness owner, as a PT owner, I
don't know, no one ever taughtme how to do those things and I
felt super shameful notunderstanding revenue cycle.
So it was like, okay, I don'tunderstand how to do my billing,
but I'm too embarrassed to askfor help.
So I usually would invest in acompany or an individual and
(20:15):
that's why I started in theblack right, Because I had Katie
Archibald, who used to be thatone in a billion who was this
amazing person who could growand scale it.
So I found myself reallypassionate about medical billing
, as boring as that might sound.
Because what really got meexcited was fighting the
insurance companies and in ourheyday, when we had this team
just of amazing rock stars, itwas like these team meetings
(20:38):
were almost like rallies, likepolitical rallies.
We're like you know what I justgot this payment from?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Aetna.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I stuck it to the man and everyone's applauding.
And because what you realize.
I mean, look, in today'spolitical climate you can't say
anything without offending halfthe population.
Right, correct.
But you can literally sayinsurance, the insurance system
is evil, and everyone goes yeah,that's right, like there's no
offense to that.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
We're united, we're united.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
And so what's fun is fighting the suppression?
Because, again, until I owned abilling company, I didn't
realize that, like there werethese automated systems that
were absolutely just meant tomake it hard for me to get paid
for my partners, and with thisautomation coming in, I mean 600
remittances in eight seconds,or something like that.
1,806, yeah, I mean.
There's no human being on theplanet that can play the game at
(21:27):
that level.
It's almost like we're going tothe insurance companies with
this new playbook and we canjust play at a much different
level.
Do you worry at all, do youworry at all at Athelas, that
they're going to come back withtheir own AI sabotage systems to
make it harder?
Have you seen anything likethat?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's a fair point.
With all the technology thatcomes out, you have to recognize
everyone's going to try toutilize it in their favor, right
, yeah, it's who can adapt tothe technology the fastest and
then again, who has urgency.
I think that the thing is withpayers.
They don't have to be urgentbecause they have all the
control, that's true.
They've been in the driver'sseat for so long.
(22:03):
They can change the ruleswhenever they want.
Right, where's the urgency?
And so, for us, we can holdthem more accountable because we
have a lot of urgency for thepractices that we represent and
we can iterate so quickly.
You get an update of technology.
You'll hear it in the news.
It's implemented into our techstack the next day for real, a
(22:24):
hundred percent, because we canmove so quickly, right, yeah,
and so that's exciting.
So, so, yes, to go back to yourquestion, payers are using
technology right now against us,right?
They are using AI to denyclaims, and there's just an
article I can reference.
But yeah, you know, cigna isdenying 1.2 seconds per claim,
(22:44):
is taking them 1.2 secondsdenial, right, we know that's
not ethical.
It has to be a physician thatactually reviews the claim
itself.
Like it's impossible you can'teven open the claim in one, to
start reviewing one for twoseconds, right?
So they did.
300,000 claims in less than twomonths, 300,000 denials Come on
, crazy, yeah, crazy.
(23:05):
And unfortunately, even thescarier part is we're so all
overwhelmed with the day-to-dayand the grind and trying to keep
up and everything else.
Yeah, less than 5% of those300,000 denials were ever even
resubmitted by practices.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Less than 5% Just because they are so busy and
they get overwhelmed and frankly, they're so busy the owners
have no idea that it's evenhappening behind the scenes.
Their billing companies are toobusy trying to fight all the
bigger fights, not going afterthe higher hanging fruit, so it
puts them in that position wherethey just disappear and people
just learn to accept their lowerreimbursement for what it is
they just basically go with thestatus quo because they don't
(23:39):
know there's a better way?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, right.
And again they're trying tojust survive.
Like can I get my currentclaims out?
Yeah, if I can't do that, I'mnot going to stay afloat.
I'm going to focus on thatfirst.
Maybe I'll get resubmit themand hope it goes well, but not
make any adjustments, and maybethe insurance company won't
catch it, or that's not asustainable way to run a
(24:04):
business or to scale.
And so it's like how do we plugtechnology in and make it do
that for them?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, and let them focus on what they want to do,
which is treat and focus on theclaims.
There's a book that we'reteaching a seminar tonight
called AI and Physical Therapyhere physically in Arizona, and
there's a book that I'm handingout to everyone who attends that
I'll put in the show notes forall the rock stars who want it,
because I can't remember thename of it right now, but the
whole book is exploding on theNew York Times bestseller list
(24:33):
because it's all about AI howit's offloading providers so
they can focus on better care.
I mean, there's all thesetrends virtual assistants for
replacing non-clinical staff.
You have AI filling in systemsso that the provider can just
hyper-focus on their care andget super impactful with the
community, like they wereintending to do from the
beginning.
One of the things that you guyshave developed is a scribe
(24:54):
technology to help offload thebiggest headache of all time,
which is notes and documentation.
There's a lot of greatsoftwares coming out there and I
think many of them arefantastic.
Yours has had some tremendousresults.
Why do you think that you guyslike what I've seen people?
I'll just say it this onefriend of mine in Arizona told
me the first day theyimplemented it.
That night, two of his PTscried on their way out because
(25:18):
they realized they would neverhave to do a note again because
your AI just sits there on thephone and actually plugs
everything in.
Tell me about how you were ableto get to that point as quickly
as you guys did.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, again, one of our main main values at Athos is
speed above all else, speedabove all else, speed above all
else, speed above all else.
We move fast because we again,waiting, analyzing, trying to be
perfect at something just slowsdown iteration.
The faster we get it in frontof users, the faster we get
(25:50):
feedback, the quicker we caniterate and refine and actually
improve the product inday-to-day use.
So what we did is we had a lotof practices that are
PT-specific, right, like wetalked about.
They were already using otherproduct lines, they were using
RCM, right, and they were happyand we basically said, hey,
here's the new technology anddocumentation.
(26:11):
We know it's a pain point,would you mind using it and
giving us feedback?
So we had them just pilot itand pilot it, and pilot it.
And we got so much feedback thatwe could iterate over and over
again in a safe place.
And even our most basic versionwas like game changing.
They were like oh my gosh,there's no templates, there's
nothing but the fact that I canjust turn something on to record
(26:35):
an encounter, have it tell whatmy voice is compared to the
patient's and have it spit out atranscription that then is
formatted to what I wanted tosay at all to look like a soap
note was game-changing, yeah,and then you just iterate.
And now we're I don't know howmany versions in now.
Right, but now it can basicallycompletely free you from doing
any documentation outside of theclinic.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Dude, I would have killed for that it's so crazy,
because there's this whole thingin the book of speed of trust.
I feel like this is our theme,because speed above all else,
right, yep?
So the biggest thing thatcreates trust in a quick way is
results.
So you talk about speed aboveall else.
It begs the question,especially when you're piloting
things, knowing that you're notproducing ideal results, how do
(27:17):
you not break trust when you'rein this mode of going so fast
that you're like openly knowingthat you're not going to get it
right the first hundred times,but you're trying to get through
those hundred times as quicklyas possible to get it to where
it's productive?
How do you not break trust?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
with those individuals.
It's the name of the game.
I mean you hit it on the head,will.
Yeah, that is hard to do andthat's where I think honestly
our background as providersright, having empathy, being
able to communicate clearly,like wanting sincerely to serve,
right, like the team that Ihave we don't tell them to sell
it Like, how can you serve thesepeople?
(27:52):
And when you come with a servantmindset and you are very clear
on communication, expectationsetting, yeah, and we are here
to help you.
We recognize it is not readyand it's not perfect in its
current state, but togetherworking on this and
communicating about it throughthis process will get us to a
point, uh, that will help usboth long term.
(28:13):
And then we obviouslyincentivize them like, hey, what
can we do to help you, toreward you for taking a risk and
piloting with us, so that it isthis joint risk that we share
and this joint venture long-termthat benefits us both.
And I really do think that,again, a clinician or provider
PT-specific background has beenessential to set those early
(28:37):
expectations so that we buildtrust and they recognize and
come straight to us with honestand open feedback that we'll
listen to and apply and not feellike they just have to suffer
in silence and hope that it oneday gets better down the line.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I think that's something that's very new to a
lot of our listeners and rockstars.
This is a masterclass onimplementing change in general,
because what Greg's talkingabout here and I love this is
this concept around transparency.
The way we get around.
It is number one serving thepeople in our teams.
If we're changing somethingwithin our company, as an
example, we want to betransparent around the risks and
the rewards.
(29:12):
We want to always say we'repiloting it.
I always tell people, never sayyou're changing anything, but
you're piloting every idea,first to see if there's traction
and then from there makingadjustments based on their
feedback quickly, because whatbuilds trust more than anything
is results and being transparent.
That there's going to be someout points almost sets you up
for building trust when we arein a position where we can gain
(29:35):
their feedback and makeadjustments quickly, so
transparently.
Greg doesn't know I'm going tosay this, but we had a chance to
meet with dozens of peoplewho've been on Athelas and I got
to meet with them kind of afterhours when you know no one was
around except for us and they'vehad a few drinks and it's
amazing what people tell me whenthey've had a few drinks.
Honesty comes out.
Honesty comes out.
And I was like so what's itlike really?
And they all said the ones whowere the earliest adapters were
(29:57):
like the first reiteration ofthese things was rough, but they
were always transparent aboutit and there was incentives to
stick through it.
Like you said, there's got tobe an incentive, Like there's an
exchange always present.
We can't just expect people tomake changes without that
happening.
And then the and so, becausethose pieces were there that
couldn't go on indefinitely.
But the way that going back tospeed above all else, going back
(30:20):
to the book, Speed of Trust,going back to fighting the
insurance companies, even thefact that technology gets
released on a Tuesday and youguys are implementing it on a
Wednesday, because it's the mostimportant value that you guys
have is vital to building thattrust and keeping results.
So it's fun to see how you guysare pivoting in that space.
As you look to the future, Greg, what is it that you see?
(30:41):
I mean, look, man, like you andI both are big fans of Athelas.
What do you think is going tohappen with Athelas in the
future?
What would you like to seehappen?
You know, for the industry as areal, not just Athelas, but
like AI, Like what the industryas a real, not just a fellow,
but like AI, like what would youlike to see down the road?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, there's some personal bias here, for sure.
So, like surface level, whatI'd say is can we create enough
integrated technology on aday-to-day user experience to
where a provider can choose ifthey wanted to see more patients
without feeling any additionalburden, if that's their choice,
great.
If they don't want to, great.
(31:22):
It's up to them.
They can actually makedecisions based on what they
think is best for their personalprofessional life yeah.
And then the balance of homeand spending time and quality
time with family they get tochoose.
Right now, it's like you eitherdo it or you're not going to
survive.
Yeah, man, and you feel likeyou're a victim every day.
(31:44):
You just have to do things acertain way because they're
dictating all the rules at youand no one understood that when
they went into medicine, right?
So that's where I'd say itstarted.
Can we get enough automation inplace?
Right, continuously on thedocumentation, the revenue cycle
(32:05):
side, the EHR side, combiningthese things to have such an
amazing day-to-day experiencethat the essence of going into
the field is returned?
Yeah, they're doing what theylove because they get paid
fairly.
Again, right, that's number one.
Bigger picture is man.
Can we actually fundamentallychange the way healthcare is
rendered.
That's where I get reallyexcited, right?
(32:27):
I mean, it is so important torecognize how broken a system is
that says we go to school right, we pay all this money for an
advanced degree, we have thisamazing skillset, we offer
amazing care, we have all thisoverhead and cost, we render
this excellent experience for apatient, and then we have no
guarantee we're going to getpaid.
(32:48):
Yeah, man.
And then we go pay someone totry to get us help us get paid,
and we still have no guaranteethat we're going to get paid.
Right, just broken, broken,broken.
And so could we actually holdpayers accountable Because we're
doing such a good job atcollecting that they have to
fundamentally pause and say canwe continue to operate in this
manner or not?
(33:08):
Right, that's what I would loveto see happen.
There's some personal bias inthere, I recognize.
If you ask our CEO, he may saysomething different.
Yeah, but I want to hold payersaccountable.
I want providers to practicehow they feel like they should
practice, because it's the rightthing to do and not because
they're playing by rules thatthey had no control over making.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, I love that vision and I think what's so
when I hear you say that, itmakes me think about what AI
really is.
You know, it's like money.
It's not good or bad.
Inherently it's a tool and asPTs, as leaders in PT, guys rock
stars.
The more we can harness thisfor our benefit to push forward
(33:46):
the thing that we love the most,which is this industry.
You know, my favorite people inthe world are PT owners and
leaders and people who want tobe leaders in our industry,
because they're the ones who areclearly choosing it not to be
rich right now.
These are people who lead withtheir heart in such a big way
that I just want to challengeeveryone to look for technology,
look at profitability as thetool that it is for us to make
(34:08):
the change that is coming.
Because it is coming.
People are starting to fight andthey're starting to win their
battles against insurancecompanies.
With tools like AI, we are ableto hold people accountable in a
way that they've never beenheld accountable before, and
when you were describing thingsearlier, Greg, like this thought
occurred to me how we're likethe least of their worries, Like
they would never see it coming.
(34:29):
This movement in physicaltherapy their smallest industry
of healthcare, the weakestprofessional in terms of how
we've been structured, but yetwe're still around for a reason,
and the reason is because thedemand of what we do is so high
and because we're so passionateabout what we do.
I defy other healthcareproviders to be as passionate as
PTs.
I'm sure they're out there, butfor us to come together, we're
(34:51):
going to have to use technologylike AI and other technologies
to help us grow and scale.
So I hope we get to hear morefrom you, Greg, in future
podcasts.
Man, this was a phenomenal time.
I really appreciate you beinghere.
If people want to get a hold ofyou and learn more about
Athelas or anything about whatyou see as an AI expert in the
physical therapy space, how canthey get a hold of you?
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, I think the easiest way is email my email is
greg at getathelascom.
And then again, if you go toour website, you can look at
more opportunities of what'sthere and you can certainly
learn more.
But if you do fill out like ananonymous form of learning more
information, you're going to geta random person calling you.
That's probably not a PT, sosorry, Audience being PT I would
(35:33):
say the best thing would be tocome directly to myself or one
of my team members that canspeak more specifically to the
PT experience through AItechnology.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, and I can tell you firsthand I've talked to at
this point probably 50 pluscompanies that have been working
in this space.
I've never heard a problem.
I haven't heard that.
There hasn't been a problemthat hasn't been overcome.
Better said, and I am a bigbeliever.
So, guys, thank you so much fortuning in.
Greg, thank you for being onthe show.
No problem, all right.
(36:03):
See you guys next time.
Guys, thank you for taking timeto listen to today's episode.
If you found today'sinformation to be useful, could
you take a minute and help me?
I would love it if you couldleave a podcast review in your
app so that other people who arelooking for this information
can find it.
Plus, my dream is to have thelargest network of medical
entrepreneurs and leaders in theworld so that together, we can
change healthcare to make itbetter for all.
So, in addition, if you canthink of anyone that you can
(36:25):
send this to, not only wouldthat mean a lot to me personally
, but it would build thisnetwork so that we can make
healthcare the way that we wantit.
One of the challenges rock stars, when we grow our
company that we face is theresistance that we get from our
team.
Have you ever tried that before, where you try to grow your
company and it starts to burnout the current team?
Maybe there's even people onthe team who aren't the best
fits, who use that opportunityto make their complaints vocal
and bring the morale down.
Well, today's episode is foryou.
Complaints vocal and bring themorale down.
(00:25):
Well, today's episode is foryou.
This is Greg Martinez fromAthelas, a $6 billion medical
billing company wanting to gopublic in the next four years.
That type of growth is sointense that it's nothing I've
ever seen before and, as aresult of that, greg's going to
share the lessons learned fromgrowing a company that
aggressively and that strongly.
It will shock you how theyapproach growth and will give
you inspiration on how you cantalk to your team in a way
(00:48):
that's going to be collaborativebut also not be slowed down by
the resistance that we get fromsome of the people on our team.
My hope is that you'll learnhow to grow in a way that will
make your life easy.
Enjoy the show All right.
Well, greg, we've had a greatconversation about the secret to
success.
Why don't you share what youthink success looks like for you
professionally?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think one is the passion onwhat it is that you actually do
right, the why behind theday-to-day grind, but more so
the combination of the why withthe people that you do it with.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, and that's what we were talking about.
This idea that, like, who we doit with really matters 100%.
Describe that for me.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
I didn't know that I cared thatmuch about it until we started
scaling things right andexpanding our team and you hire
all these people and yourecognize they have these
attributes and characteristicsthat can help you succeed.
But more so, what I foundfulfillment is in is seeing them
be successful, so theirfamilies are taken care of, and
(01:51):
when you care about them asindividuals and humans and you
enjoy spending time with them,and then their success actually
means more to you than justhitting a number or achieving a
goal, then work doesn't feellike work anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah Well, you have to do that because what you're
doing right now is so intenseand your team is so amazing.
I was surprised, you know, withour billing company, katie and
I, we were just amazed and we'vesaid this to everybody as big
as your company is, how personalit is.
The most amazing individuals,daniel, kevin, like so many
people that, and everyone youmeet.
(02:27):
They're so amazing.
How did you guys find eachother?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
It's a good question.
It's a really good question.
It's kind of like thoselifelong things that you talked
about, right?
So Daniel is one of thosepeople, for me for sure.
He was my last student.
His last clinical rotation wasin my practice and we just
talked about business and ideasand big picture stuff and what
was wrong with the field and whywe couldn't make an impact on
it right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(02:50):
And so the first time I gotapproval to actually create this
clinical team inside ofAthellas, he was the first
person I called and I knew he'dcome.
He immediately gave his noticeand you know, he's been my
right-hand guy since that dayand if anything were to change,
we'd go everywhere together,like we are going to work
together in the future, nomatter what.
(03:11):
And then others have beenclassmates, I mean our first
three people we hired.
Todd was my classmate in PTschool, one of my closest
friends now, and then Jordan wasactually I grew up with his
family's brother and he was oneof my assistants, my aides, and
I wrote his letter to PT schooland those are the first three
letters we made.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
So you've known these people forever.
Is the relationship moreimportant than the skill set?
Because, I mean, these werereally intense positions that
you've hired them for at Othello, a $6 billion company.
Your scaling goals are superhuge.
Your vision, of course, is totake the PT industry and use AI
to totally transform theirrevenue cycle.
So when you're bringing peopleover, my first thought is like,
yeah, I'm sure Daniel is amazing, but how did you know he'd be
(03:50):
amazing at this?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And you don't always.
Honestly, the true answer is youdon't know, right, you can't
know exactly, because when wescale this quickly in a business
like this and the valuationcontinuously expands, right,
right, you just adjust on thefly.
You do what you have to doevery single day and it's a
little bit different.
You just have to recognize likeit's not going to be perfect
and structured and that's okay,like living in chaos is how it's
(04:14):
going to go, and I thrive inthat, I love that environment.
So you can't know, but I doknow that, from a skillset
standpoint, like he thinksoperationally, he understands
big picture, he's strategic,yeah, and you can't teach
someone a thing like that, so Iknow he's going to figure it out
.
And also, he's super driven andvery reliable and it's like
(04:36):
that's more important thananything else to me, right?
And the rest of them, from arelationship standpoint, it's
the same thing.
Yeah, I trust them.
As humans, we can teach themthe skill set They've translated
their provider skill sets, very, very quickly into a sales
management role in less than ayear.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's amazing and it's such a cool concept because
you have these two things atplay that are really famous
concepts.
So, rockstars, as you'relistening, one thing that we
talk a lot about is that youhire on mindset and you train on
skillset.
So that's what you're talkingabout with Daniel's strategic,
high-level thinking capabilities.
You know him well enough toknow that piece.
But the second thing is trust.
My favorite book of all time forbusiness no kidding is a book
(05:16):
by Stephen Covey Jr called theSpeed of Trust.
It's actually not thatwell-known Everyone knows his
dad for Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People.
But the speed of trust was toldto me by one of my mentors as
his favorite book and I thoughthe was exaggerating.
And I read it and I was likedude.
This is so crazy, because whenwe have trust with our team
members, you can really lean oneach other.
(05:38):
For all the hard stuff and Iknow for me as an owner, greg
like the hardest things was andI couldn't trust that someone
would show up every day.
I couldn't trust that they werelike.
The person I was hiring wasn'tgoing to talk crap about me when
I made a mistake, but it's soeasy to pick on the leader in
that group, and so the trustthat you guys have with that
team is evident, as as is provedby the fact that I see you guys
(06:00):
talking to PTs and they're justtotally feeling that connection
, despite the fact that you arebacked by a very large company
in artificial intelligence.
Yeah, yeah, so, man.
So every quarter, obviously,you guys focus on growth.
So what challenges do you guysface on those relationships, as
you're, you know what I mean,because there's so much stress.
(06:20):
How does that stress therelationships that you've built?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, it's honestly, it sounds cliche, yeah, but when
you go through these reallychallenging situations together
and you win right, you hit thesegoals that seem unattainable at
the time and in the last second, seem impossible.
And you know personally, it'snot exactly what I'm talking
about.
Firstly, is that exactly whatI'm talking about?
Like it builds this increasedlevel of trust and camaraderie
(06:49):
and just buy-in right to eachother and to this bigger picture
of what we're building togetherthat it's like, hey, I would go
to battle with you whereverwe're at right, and it's just
become so much more bindinglong-term because you've done
something so hard together thatyou can't experience any other
way.
Right, if it was easy, itwouldn't be the same at all.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Right, you wouldn't have the strength of the
relationship.
That trust gets re-fortified iswhat you're saying, 100%.
So do you ever have frictionpoints?
Do you guys ever have pointswhere there's like you have to
talk things out, or All the time.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I mean, the challenge with scale, right, is you can't
map things out perfectly and sothere's never like a fair, just
way to have everybody benefitequally as we grow, create new
territories, create new teams.
You know scale at a really,really fast pace, right?
We're over 50 providers, yeah,and to do that and keep it fair
(07:44):
for everybody is impossible.
So you have to have thoseconversations of like hey, you
have to recognize early on myintention is not to harm you.
I would do anything possible tohelp you be successful
long-term here.
But you have to recognize, asmuch as we try to keep it fair,
it can't ever be perfect.
If you trust me enough toremember that and give a little
bit here and there so we can allwin together, it's going to
(08:08):
work out in the end, you know inthe wrong run.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Okay, I love that.
How it came back to trust too,because you know you have that
trust with people saying you cantrust.
I'm not intentionally trying tohurt you, yep, because we're
organizing chaos, which is all.
Growth is Right.
We're taking this unorganizedmatter and we're organizing it
to grow or scale.
We're in this position wherethere's going to be lots of
mistakes.
(08:30):
That's one of my favoritethings that I've heard is we're
either learning or winning,right, and so the learning is
more like what others would callfailure, maybe friction within
the team.
Have you guys ever broughtsomeone on?
That's not a fit.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, and again, the intention.
I will literally tell everysingle person I interviewed this
right, Our intention is to makethis a win-win.
You need to be interviewing usas much as we're interviewing
you.
Yeah, this has to be along-term fit for both sides and
unfortunately sometimes itdoesn't work out and what we try
to do is paint that path andpicture for them to say, hey,
our intentions were good, we dideverything we could to make the
(09:04):
best fit possible, but I thinkwe both recognize this probably
isn't the best path or fittogether long-term.
How do we help you find abetter opportunity moving
forward so it does happen?
It's, again, not been verycommon, luckily, thus far, but I
think the odds show that it'sgoing to happen sooner or later
on occasion.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Well, what's cool about that, too, is, I think,
that a lot of times, when wethink that we have a dream team
going, that we don't havefriction points, and that's
quite opposite.
A team, for it to grow and scale, well, clearly has to be
growing is one of the thingsthat you're saying, yep, and so
you're in this environment withAthelas, where you guys are
growing super fast.
You've got lots of energybehind it and I will say this
(09:44):
all the way up to yourleadership.
You know, hirsch and theseamazing people that like kind of
make you feel stupid, to behonest, like I'm twice their age
and they're like super humansand you just, but they're so
kind you can't dislike them.
(10:04):
Like they're just, but it's theidea that, like you have this
trust, but you also have theseclear focuses on outcomes that
allow you to have these safearguments about, like, what's
going to be productive and whatwe should do or shouldn't do,
because everyone knows andtrusts that, at the end of the
day, they're all wanting thesame for all.
They all want everybody to win,and so I think that is
something that people getconfused with when they have
teams that, or they've neverexperienced a dream team they
think that that's just notpossible at all.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, no, I agree a hundred percent, and I think
it's fascinating.
It makes me think of two things.
Number one is, again, you haveto be aligned to the big picture
because, it will never beperfect, like we talked about.
Right, you cannot expect thingsto just run smoothly.
You have to be willing to adaptall the time and recognize that
, not if, but when things don'tgo the way you hoped they would.
(10:45):
That is not personal.
It's going to happen and youcan control how you respond, but
not all the circumstances thatyou're put under.
The other thing is fun for meis PT was so amazing.
You know how passionate I amabout our profession Totally,
100%, believe in what we'redoing.
Some of the dynamicrelationships that I've been
(11:08):
able to, like experience at acompany like this.
I don't know how to really put avalue.
How do you measure the valuelong-term to working with
someone like you just mentioned?
Yeah, right, and it's not evenjust like their resume, because
resumes are crazy.
Right, there are people fromall over every Ivy league school
you can imagine, from fromHarvard and Stanford.
You know they're amazing.
(11:29):
But to sit in the same room aspeople that think and see things
a different way than you and toabsorb the way that they
analyze and process things andthen bring our own personal
experience to the table and seethose things kind of mesh
together is a pretty excitingexperience, right, and in PT it
becomes so common because we'realways with the same people all
(11:50):
the time.
It's not necessarily bad, it'sjust not the same experience,
right.
And so they needed a bridgebuilder, right.
They are so smart, so good attechnology, so good at
automation.
They think of things in waysthat providers don't, yeah, but
they're also building tools forproviders, right.
So they had to have a connector, a bridge, between end user and
(12:12):
most brilliant minds in theworld, yeah, and we created that
bridge of value that couldn'thave come in another way, and so
our value is great.
It's just very different thanwhat they bring, and when you
put those together, it becomessomething great.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, I love that story because we sometimes get
trapped by being too similarwith each other, but the thing
we don't want to be afraid to be, the thing that matters most in
being similar in thinking, isvision Like values and vision,
because even if one person's atech background and I'm a
healthcare background, if weboth want to disrupt physical
therapy and make it the leaderin musculoskeletal industries, I
(12:48):
think there's a hugeopportunity in my world.
When I started getting coachingback in 2008 for physical
therapy ownership, I almostwalked away right Like it was
just too hard.
I got to this point where mywife said why don't you get a
coach?
And there was no coaches inphysical therapy that I could
find.
There may have been, but like Inever found them.
So I joined Entrepreneur'sOrganization EO.
(13:09):
It's the largest in the worldfor just business networking and
they train you.
They'll give you a mentor 5,000a year, so kind of like this
low expense but high impactexperience.
None of the people who coachedme were in physical therapy and
I'm so grateful for that.
Having a CPA talk to me aboutnumbers, having a roofing
construction worker tell meabout team building Like you
(13:31):
just never know what valueeveryone has.
But the big thing was, we'rewanting to help people and make
a difference.
And when you're at Athelas, Imean it's really interesting
because what you're doing thereis.
It's always been interesting tome that you guys are
hyper-focused on physicaltherapy, right, like you have AI
, you're focused on revenuecycle as well as a handful of
other things.
Now, sure, why did you guyslike double down on PT?
(13:53):
Because a lot of critics wouldsay why would anyone double down
on PT.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
It's a totally fair question and again, the obvious
answer at the service level isthat I was the first provider
they hired.
That was my background, thatwas my network, it was what I
knew, what I was familiar with.
And at the time you have tojust say, hey, we're building
this new tool, this suite oftools.
We need someone to use it.
Yeah Right, it yeah Right.
And early on it's like how canwe get in front of people as
fast as possible?
And that's my network.
(14:20):
So it started just like great,this is convenient, right.
Then what we learned down theline and again that's the honest
answer is that's my network.
That's why we started.
I am biased.
I'm going to continue to pushfor PT.
Yeah, I want us to have thegreatest tools and skills you
know and opportunities possible.
But down the line they saw thatPTs have a lot of opportunity
in private practice.
(14:40):
Most other medical specialtiesdon't have as many private
practice opportunities.
They're part of a largerumbrella system, like working at
a hospital.
But PT is so common to justbreak off and say I'm going to
create my own thing and I'mgoing to figure out how to run
this thing on my own and I'mgoing to scale it and very few
(15:04):
other medical professions orspecialties have that many
entrepreneurs that are justbuilding something great with a
really, really diverse skillsetlike PT, and so I think it
aligns really well with howwe're building.
They think the same way.
There's a lot of synergy andit's made sense.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I love that you have that.
It's so cool because we did anepisode last week with someone
by the name of Tim Spooner.
He's got the largest privatepractice owner here in Arizona
and he was talking about howthis is the single best time to
become a PT and start a practice.
And the reason being is becausewhat we don't realize as PTs is
that this is a $600 billionindustry called musculoskeletal
(15:38):
stuff.
Versus musculoskeletal recovery, versus just the physical
therapy rehab portion, that'slike 30 to 40 billion, sure, so
there's this massive industry tocome in.
So I think that's another reasonwhy Athelas and other larger
companies are starting to really, you know, jump in here,
because you guys jumped inbecause you grew where you were
planted.
They planted a guy named Gregand he grew from PT.
(16:00):
So that's where you continuegrowing.
But now, as you guys aregrowing and scaling, there's
just tremendous opportunity fordisruption, scaling and man,
what you guys do in the AI spaceis so fun.
So I know a lot of people aregonna be tuning into this
episode because they want tohear about how AI functions with
revenue cycles.
So talk to me about that.
What does AI?
What does that even mean?
(16:20):
Artificial intelligence helpingpeople get their money as
physical therapy practice.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's so broad.
There's just so many places youcan start.
Yeah, I think the easiest wayto explain it is to think about
the repetitive or monotonoustasks that are generally
required to successfully createand submit a claim and then
actually get paid on it in atimely manner.
Yeah, right, there's so muchrepetitive patterns that have to
(16:47):
go into place in order toactually get paid fairly.
Yeah, so the question becomeswhy do we have to do that every
single claim, every single time,and then adjust that for each
payer individually?
Can there be a way to automatethat, right?
So the simple way of looking atit is do monotonous tasks at
scale immediately.
Let's take that piece out rightnow, right, yeah, and then,
(17:08):
when you start automatingportions of it, what you start
to get is data, and when youhave data, you can make more
informed decisions aboutefficiency.
And then you drive yourdecision-making process based on
actual results and objectivenumbers that are coming from
some of the automations you'vestarted and that drives more
automation.
And so it's gone from.
Hey, you know, we could probablystreamline querying portals for
(17:32):
remittances and the numbers wethrow out, right, like, we're
going to get these 1,800remittances in about six seconds
.
So we scrape these portals, getthe data we need, post them
directly back into our platformand it's called Insights, and
that would take a human abouttwo weeks working full-time,
nonstop doing right.
And so I was like, wow, that'sreally amazing Now that we can
do that, how do we drive thatdata we're getting from
(17:55):
remittances or eligibilitychecks right Into more
purposeful or meaningfulautomations, right?
And then it just starts to addon to that and the next layer
comes, and then we get userslike physical therapists and
practices starting to use it andthey say, hey, this is amazing,
what if you used it in this way?
And then our engineers like,that's a great idea, let's,
(18:16):
let's try it right, because youhave so many engineers that can
adapt, so fast, so many.
We ship new code every two weeks, jeez.
So we have well over 200engineers full-time engineers
now based in the Bay Area and,again, top talent in the world.
Right, it's like we'rerecruiting from.
We can now handpick theseengineers from Facebook and Uber
(18:37):
and SpaceX and you know allthese Bay Area companies and
plug them into something that'straditionally so boring, like
nobody likes to do billing,right, no one.
But if we plug in automation,llms, large language models
right, these automations, like,they get to move faster than
they did at Google.
Yeah, right, they're iteratingthat quickly.
Yeah, faster than they did atGoogle.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, right, they're iterating that quickly.
Yeah, because those are suchlarge companies, yes, you guys
have they get to reallyimplement change and see it
impact immediately, exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Exactly.
And again they get to be on thefront lines of like wait a
minute, here's a use case forsomething I can build that could
be immediately implemented intoa practice.
We see results from that sameday.
Same day, that's fun, yeahRight.
And so now billing isn't likeugh, this old drawn out,
monotonous, boring task.
(19:30):
It's like I could buildsomething great that could be
used at scale immediately, likeI want to work for a company
like that.
And then we grow that quicklyand it's like great.
Now there's opportunity forequity and progression and
everything else.
And then you have these teamsthat just get bigger and bigger
with higher and higher levels oftalent, and it becomes this
(19:50):
momentum that's just hard toslow down.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Dude, I love hearing the enthusiasm on the back end
from your perspective, Becausehere's where I get excited about
it.
It's from my misery of being abusiness owner, as a PT owner, I
don't know, no one ever taughtme how to do those things and I
felt super shameful notunderstanding revenue cycle.
So it was like, okay, I don'tunderstand how to do my billing,
but I'm too embarrassed to askfor help.
So I usually would invest in acompany or an individual and
(20:15):
that's why I started in theblack right, Because I had Katie
Archibald, who used to be thatone in a billion who was this
amazing person who could growand scale it.
So I found myself reallypassionate about medical billing
, as boring as that might sound.
Because what really got meexcited was fighting the
insurance companies and in ourheyday, when we had this team
just of amazing rock stars, itwas like these team meetings
(20:38):
were almost like rallies, likepolitical rallies.
We're like you know what I justgot this payment from?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Aetna.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I stuck it to the man and everyone's applauding.
And because what you realize.
I mean, look, in today'spolitical climate you can't say
anything without offending halfthe population.
Right, correct.
But you can literally sayinsurance, the insurance system
is evil, and everyone goes yeah,that's right, like there's no
offense to that.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
We're united, we're united.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
And so what's fun is fighting the suppression?
Because, again, until I owned abilling company, I didn't
realize that, like there werethese automated systems that
were absolutely just meant tomake it hard for me to get paid
for my partners, and with thisautomation coming in, I mean 600
remittances in eight seconds,or something like that.
1,806, yeah, I mean.
There's no human being on theplanet that can play the game at
(21:27):
that level.
It's almost like we're going tothe insurance companies with
this new playbook and we canjust play at a much different
level.
Do you worry at all, do youworry at all at Athelas, that
they're going to come back withtheir own AI sabotage systems to
make it harder?
Have you seen anything likethat?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's a fair point.
With all the technology thatcomes out, you have to recognize
everyone's going to try toutilize it in their favor, right
, yeah, it's who can adapt tothe technology the fastest and
then again, who has urgency.
I think that the thing is withpayers.
They don't have to be urgentbecause they have all the
control, that's true.
They've been in the driver'sseat for so long.
(22:03):
They can change the ruleswhenever they want.
Right, where's the urgency?
And so, for us, we can holdthem more accountable because we
have a lot of urgency for thepractices that we represent and
we can iterate so quickly.
You get an update of technology.
You'll hear it in the news.
It's implemented into our techstack the next day for real, a
(22:24):
hundred percent, because we canmove so quickly, right, yeah,
and so that's exciting.
So, so, yes, to go back to yourquestion, payers are using
technology right now against us,right?
They are using AI to denyclaims, and there's just an
article I can reference.
But yeah, you know, cigna isdenying 1.2 seconds per claim,
(22:44):
is taking them 1.2 secondsdenial, right, we know that's
not ethical.
It has to be a physician thatactually reviews the claim
itself.
Like it's impossible you can'teven open the claim in one, to
start reviewing one for twoseconds, right?
So they did.
300,000 claims in less than twomonths, 300,000 denials Come on
, crazy, yeah, crazy.
(23:05):
And unfortunately, even thescarier part is we're so all
overwhelmed with the day-to-dayand the grind and trying to keep
up and everything else.
Yeah, less than 5% of those300,000 denials were ever even
resubmitted by practices.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Less than 5% Just because they are so busy and
they get overwhelmed and frankly, they're so busy the owners
have no idea that it's evenhappening behind the scenes.
Their billing companies are toobusy trying to fight all the
bigger fights, not going afterthe higher hanging fruit, so it
puts them in that position wherethey just disappear and people
just learn to accept their lowerreimbursement for what it is
they just basically go with thestatus quo because they don't
(23:39):
know there's a better way?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, right.
And again they're trying tojust survive.
Like can I get my currentclaims out?
Yeah, if I can't do that, I'mnot going to stay afloat.
I'm going to focus on thatfirst.
Maybe I'll get resubmit themand hope it goes well, but not
make any adjustments, and maybethe insurance company won't
catch it, or that's not asustainable way to run a
(24:04):
business or to scale.
And so it's like how do we plugtechnology in and make it do
that for them?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, and let them focus on what they want to do,
which is treat and focus on theclaims.
There's a book that we'reteaching a seminar tonight
called AI and Physical Therapyhere physically in Arizona, and
there's a book that I'm handingout to everyone who attends that
I'll put in the show notes forall the rock stars who want it,
because I can't remember thename of it right now, but the
whole book is exploding on theNew York Times bestseller list
(24:33):
because it's all about AI howit's offloading providers so
they can focus on better care.
I mean, there's all thesetrends virtual assistants for
replacing non-clinical staff.
You have AI filling in systemsso that the provider can just
hyper-focus on their care andget super impactful with the
community, like they wereintending to do from the
beginning.
One of the things that you guyshave developed is a scribe
(24:54):
technology to help offload thebiggest headache of all time,
which is notes and documentation.
There's a lot of greatsoftwares coming out there and I
think many of them arefantastic.
Yours has had some tremendousresults.
Why do you think that you guyslike what I've seen people?
I'll just say it this onefriend of mine in Arizona told
me the first day theyimplemented it.
That night, two of his PTscried on their way out because
(25:18):
they realized they would neverhave to do a note again because
your AI just sits there on thephone and actually plugs
everything in.
Tell me about how you were ableto get to that point as quickly
as you guys did.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, again, one of our main main values at Athos is
speed above all else, speedabove all else, speed above all
else, speed above all else.
We move fast because we again,waiting, analyzing, trying to be
perfect at something just slowsdown iteration.
The faster we get it in frontof users, the faster we get
(25:50):
feedback, the quicker we caniterate and refine and actually
improve the product inday-to-day use.
So what we did is we had a lotof practices that are
PT-specific, right, like wetalked about.
They were already using otherproduct lines, they were using
RCM, right, and they were happyand we basically said, hey,
here's the new technology anddocumentation.
(26:11):
We know it's a pain point,would you mind using it and
giving us feedback?
So we had them just pilot itand pilot it, and pilot it.
And we got so much feedback thatwe could iterate over and over
again in a safe place.
And even our most basic versionwas like game changing.
They were like oh my gosh,there's no templates, there's
nothing but the fact that I canjust turn something on to record
(26:35):
an encounter, have it tell whatmy voice is compared to the
patient's and have it spit out atranscription that then is
formatted to what I wanted tosay at all to look like a soap
note was game-changing, yeah,and then you just iterate.
And now we're I don't know howmany versions in now.
Right, but now it can basicallycompletely free you from doing
any documentation outside of theclinic.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Dude, I would have killed for that it's so crazy,
because there's this whole thingin the book of speed of trust.
I feel like this is our theme,because speed above all else,
right, yep?
So the biggest thing thatcreates trust in a quick way is
results.
So you talk about speed aboveall else.
It begs the question,especially when you're piloting
things, knowing that you're notproducing ideal results, how do
(27:17):
you not break trust when you'rein this mode of going so fast
that you're like openly knowingthat you're not going to get it
right the first hundred times,but you're trying to get through
those hundred times as quicklyas possible to get it to where
it's productive?
How do you not break trust?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
with those individuals.
It's the name of the game.
I mean you hit it on the head,will.
Yeah, that is hard to do andthat's where I think honestly
our background as providersright, having empathy, being
able to communicate clearly,like wanting sincerely to serve,
right, like the team that Ihave we don't tell them to sell
it Like, how can you serve thesepeople?
(27:52):
And when you come with a servantmindset and you are very clear
on communication, expectationsetting, yeah, and we are here
to help you.
We recognize it is not readyand it's not perfect in its
current state, but togetherworking on this and
communicating about it throughthis process will get us to a
point, uh, that will help usboth long term.
(28:13):
And then we obviouslyincentivize them like, hey, what
can we do to help you, toreward you for taking a risk and
piloting with us, so that it isthis joint risk that we share
and this joint venture long-termthat benefits us both.
And I really do think that,again, a clinician or provider
PT-specific background has beenessential to set those early
(28:37):
expectations so that we buildtrust and they recognize and
come straight to us with honestand open feedback that we'll
listen to and apply and not feellike they just have to suffer
in silence and hope that it oneday gets better down the line.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I think that's something that's very new to a
lot of our listeners and rockstars.
This is a masterclass onimplementing change in general,
because what Greg's talkingabout here and I love this is
this concept around transparency.
The way we get around.
It is number one serving thepeople in our teams.
If we're changing somethingwithin our company, as an
example, we want to betransparent around the risks and
the rewards.
(29:12):
We want to always say we'repiloting it.
I always tell people, never sayyou're changing anything, but
you're piloting every idea,first to see if there's traction
and then from there makingadjustments based on their
feedback quickly, because whatbuilds trust more than anything
is results and being transparent.
That there's going to be someout points almost sets you up
for building trust when we arein a position where we can gain
(29:35):
their feedback and makeadjustments quickly, so
transparently.
Greg doesn't know I'm going tosay this, but we had a chance to
meet with dozens of peoplewho've been on Athelas and I got
to meet with them kind of afterhours when you know no one was
around except for us and they'vehad a few drinks and it's
amazing what people tell me whenthey've had a few drinks.
Honesty comes out.
Honesty comes out.
And I was like so what's itlike really?
And they all said the ones whowere the earliest adapters were
(29:57):
like the first reiteration ofthese things was rough, but they
were always transparent aboutit and there was incentives to
stick through it.
Like you said, there's got tobe an incentive, Like there's an
exchange always present.
We can't just expect people tomake changes without that
happening.
And then the and so, becausethose pieces were there that
couldn't go on indefinitely.
But the way that going back tospeed above all else, going back
(30:20):
to the book, Speed of Trust,going back to fighting the
insurance companies, even thefact that technology gets
released on a Tuesday and youguys are implementing it on a
Wednesday, because it's the mostimportant value that you guys
have is vital to building thattrust and keeping results.
So it's fun to see how you guysare pivoting in that space.
As you look to the future, Greg, what is it that you see?
(30:41):
I mean, look, man, like you andI both are big fans of Athelas.
What do you think is going tohappen with Athelas in the
future?
What would you like to seehappen?
You know, for the industry as areal, not just Athelas, but
like AI, Like what the industryas a real, not just a fellow,
but like AI, like what would youlike to see down the road?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, there's some personal bias here, for sure.
So, like surface level, whatI'd say is can we create enough
integrated technology on aday-to-day user experience to
where a provider can choose ifthey wanted to see more patients
without feeling any additionalburden, if that's their choice,
great.
If they don't want to, great.
(31:22):
It's up to them.
They can actually makedecisions based on what they
think is best for their personalprofessional life yeah.
And then the balance of homeand spending time and quality
time with family they get tochoose.
Right now, it's like you eitherdo it or you're not going to
survive.
Yeah, man, and you feel likeyou're a victim every day.
(31:44):
You just have to do things acertain way because they're
dictating all the rules at youand no one understood that when
they went into medicine, right?
So that's where I'd say itstarted.
Can we get enough automation inplace?
Right, continuously on thedocumentation, the revenue cycle
(32:05):
side, the EHR side, combiningthese things to have such an
amazing day-to-day experiencethat the essence of going into
the field is returned?
Yeah, they're doing what theylove because they get paid
fairly.
Again, right, that's number one.
Bigger picture is man.
Can we actually fundamentallychange the way healthcare is
rendered.
That's where I get reallyexcited, right?
(32:27):
I mean, it is so important torecognize how broken a system is
that says we go to school right, we pay all this money for an
advanced degree, we have thisamazing skillset, we offer
amazing care, we have all thisoverhead and cost, we render
this excellent experience for apatient, and then we have no
guarantee we're going to getpaid.
(32:48):
Yeah, man.
And then we go pay someone totry to get us help us get paid,
and we still have no guaranteethat we're going to get paid.
Right, just broken, broken,broken.
And so could we actually holdpayers accountable Because we're
doing such a good job atcollecting that they have to
fundamentally pause and say canwe continue to operate in this
manner or not?
(33:08):
Right, that's what I would loveto see happen.
There's some personal bias inthere, I recognize.
If you ask our CEO, he may saysomething different.
Yeah, but I want to hold payersaccountable.
I want providers to practicehow they feel like they should
practice, because it's the rightthing to do and not because
they're playing by rules thatthey had no control over making.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, I love that vision and I think what's so
when I hear you say that, itmakes me think about what AI
really is.
You know, it's like money.
It's not good or bad.
Inherently it's a tool and asPTs, as leaders in PT, guys rock
stars.
The more we can harness thisfor our benefit to push forward
(33:46):
the thing that we love the most,which is this industry.
You know, my favorite people inthe world are PT owners and
leaders and people who want tobe leaders in our industry,
because they're the ones who areclearly choosing it not to be
rich right now.
These are people who lead withtheir heart in such a big way
that I just want to challengeeveryone to look for technology,
look at profitability as thetool that it is for us to make
(34:08):
the change that is coming.
Because it is coming.
People are starting to fight andthey're starting to win their
battles against insurancecompanies.
With tools like AI, we are ableto hold people accountable in a
way that they've never beenheld accountable before, and
when you were describing thingsearlier, Greg, like this thought
occurred to me how we're likethe least of their worries, Like
they would never see it coming.
(34:29):
This movement in physicaltherapy their smallest industry
of healthcare, the weakestprofessional in terms of how
we've been structured, but yetwe're still around for a reason,
and the reason is because thedemand of what we do is so high
and because we're so passionateabout what we do.
I defy other healthcareproviders to be as passionate as
PTs.
I'm sure they're out there, butfor us to come together, we're
(34:51):
going to have to use technologylike AI and other technologies
to help us grow and scale.
So I hope we get to hear morefrom you, Greg, in future
podcasts.
Man, this was a phenomenal time.
I really appreciate you beinghere.
If people want to get a hold ofyou and learn more about
Athelas or anything about whatyou see as an AI expert in the
physical therapy space, how canthey get a hold of you?
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, I think the easiest way is email my email is
greg at getathelascom.
And then again, if you go toour website, you can look at
more opportunities of what'sthere and you can certainly
learn more.
But if you do fill out like ananonymous form of learning more
information, you're going to geta random person calling you.
That's probably not a PT, sosorry, Audience being PT I would
(35:33):
say the best thing would be tocome directly to myself or one
of my team members that canspeak more specifically to the
PT experience through AItechnology.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, and I can tell you firsthand I've talked to at
this point probably 50 pluscompanies that have been working
in this space.
I've never heard a problem.
I haven't heard that.
There hasn't been a problemthat hasn't been overcome.
Better said, and I am a bigbeliever.
So, guys, thank you so much fortuning in.
Greg, thank you for being onthe show.
No problem, all right.
(36:03):
See you guys next time.
Guys, thank you for taking timeto listen to today's episode.
If you found today'sinformation to be useful, could
you take a minute and help me?
I would love it if you couldleave a podcast review in your
app so that other people who arelooking for this information
can find it.
Plus, my dream is to have thelargest network of medical
entrepreneurs and leaders in theworld so that together, we can
change healthcare to make itbetter for all.
So, in addition, if you canthink of anyone that you can
(36:25):
send this to, not only wouldthat mean a lot to me personally
, but it would build thisnetwork so that we can make
healthcare the way that we wantit.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.