February 24, 2025 • 67 mins
Examining the power of hard goals reveals that authentic self-esteem and fulfillment come from overcoming challenges, as discussed with Caroline Adams Miller. By understanding the roles of relationships, investments, and grit through the Bridge Framework, listeners are empowered to pursue meaningful aspirations.
• Emphasizing the importance of hard goals in building self-esteem
• Distinction between learning goals and performance goals
• The significance of surrounding oneself with supportive relationships
• Criticality of identifying necessary investments and resources
• The impact of decision-making and flexibility in goal pursuit
• Promoting grit and resilience through focused efforts
• Importance of continual growth and reassessment in personal goals
Join Caroline Adams Miller and gain the tools necessary to take your goals to the next level by utilizing the Bridge Framework!
Connect With Caroline!
Website
Book - BIG Goals: The Science of Setting Them, Achieving Them, and Creating Your Best Life
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Keep in touch below!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You asked me about challenging and specific.
I just want to quickly say thisone thing the research is very
clear that at the end of everyday we scan our days for what we
did that day that were hard,because those are the things
that actually give us authenticself-esteem and there's no other
way to get it.
It's by going outside of yourcomfort zone in pursuit of
(00:21):
meaningful goals and doing hardthings.
That allows us to become thebest version of ourselves, and
the world rewards that behavior.
The world rewards that behavior.
The world does not reward peoplewho set easy goals and that is
fascinating, and Locke andLatham grappled with that,
(00:42):
because they kept finding peoplewho were setting low goals were
happier as they went along, butthe real and they were like why
?
Why are people having thissustained well-being as they
accomplish these short termgoals?
But the longer term goals are alittle bit miserable while
they're pursuing it.
And then they went bingo.
Because the world rewards hardgoals that you're not always
(01:04):
happy about while you'repursuing them, because you're
acquiring skills and you'refailing at times.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome to the Wednesday podcast, a weekly
resource thoughtfully crafted tohelp people build and refine
discipline, accomplish theirgoals, fortify their mindsets
and be of service to somebody inthis world.
My name is Ryan Cass and I amyour host, and it is my mission
and commitment to deliveramazing episodes to you every
week where you will learn frommyself or a renowned expert in
(01:36):
their field.
We love helping people win inevery aspect of their lives, and
you can help us win by sharingthe show with somebody that you
believe will benefit from it,subscribing and leaving a rating
and review.
We believe that everybody inthis world is meant to do
something great with their lives, and we're here to help play a
(01:57):
role in that.
Thank you for tuning in andlet's win today.
Thank you.
(02:50):
They knew a secret that couldmake your life happier and more
successful.
Would you want to know what itwas?
Of course you would, and todayis your lucky day because this
chapter contains that secret.
And, unlike the runawaybestseller, the Secret of the
1980s, this secret isn't one ofmagical and fantastical promises
(03:11):
about how to make your dreamscome true.
This secret is the elusiveknowledge that I learned in
October 2005 that had been inacademic and management
textbooks for years, but ithadn't reached the mass markets
until my book, creating yourBest Life, was published in 2008
.
15 years later, there are stillonly a few books that have
(03:33):
shared this secret with thepublic, so let's make sure that
you and those around you learnit now.
And that's exactly what we'regoing to learn today, as we have
the queen of grit and goalswith us today, caroline Adams
Miller, who is the author ofnine books, including the one
(03:54):
that y'all just heard from BigGoals, the Science of Setting
them, achieving them andCreating your Best Life,
caroline, welcome.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Amen.
Thank you, what an opening Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
We just heard some cool stuff there and if we went
to your website, we can see thatyou've been a successful author
.
You've worked with prominentcompanies, organizations.
Author.
You've worked with prominentcompanies, organizations,
athletes all over the world, butwhat's really the most
(04:36):
important thing for people toknow about Caroline Adams Miller
?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
and how you serve the world.
I've never been asked thatquestion, but the first thing
that comes to mind are mychildren, because I'm so proud
of them and I can't call themgoals.
But I have three remarkablechildren who have all achieved
amazing goals and they've alsohad amazing failures which ended
up being so important in theirlater success.
(04:58):
And they've all married their,their people, and I have to say,
as a parent, I'm not sure itgets a whole lot better than
that.
So I'm just going to say that.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I love that.
I always love to start withthat question, caroline, because
I believe in creating meaningbefore content, meaning that we
could go straight into businessand straight into books.
But I believe it's important toget to know really what makes
somebody human.
(05:30):
And what I find to be soamazing is that the vast
majority almost every singleperson that I asked that
question to that's done a lot ofamazing things in this world
and continues to do amazingthings.
Is they go back to their familyin some way, shape or form?
Isn't?
that interesting and it's neatto see that many folks,
(05:57):
regardless of what they'veachieved, what really matters to
them isn't the you didn't saywell, it's really important that
everyone knows I'm an amazingauthor.
You went back to something deepand I can appreciate that and
it's my wish that every timethat question is asked, that you
know listeners can understand.
(06:17):
Maybe it's not all about thethings, but it's about the heart
and what really pushes us there.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
May I say two things about that, because it's such a
moving way to start this podcast, can I say two?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
quick things, please, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So in that first year of positive psychology.
So I was in the first ever inthe world Masters of Applied
Positive Psychology class at theuniversity of Pennsylvania, so
I got to learn from the mostamazing professors.
Um and anyway, this science ofhappiness is fantastic, but what
we were told over and over itboiled down to was, no matter
(06:57):
what angle you looked athappiness from, it all boiled
down to three words other peoplematter, and that is the
foundation of all well-being inlife is your relationships with
other people.
And that reminds me, because wejust had this horrible crash
here in DC of a Black Hawkhelicopter and a commuter plane
(07:18):
and we lost these amazing figureskaters and other men and women
who were on the plane.
But I went to the mostundervisited national park in
the country a few years ago andit's the Flight 93 Memorial in
Shanksville, pennsylvania, andthere is an exhibit in this very
silent national park where allyou hear is people crying and
(07:44):
you're invited to pick up thephones that include the last
messages people left for lovedones.
They knew they had 90 secondsto live, they knew they were
going to die and I just embracedmyself to go listen to them.
Every single message peopleleft was about their love for
(08:04):
their family.
And I get choked up.
But it's just you know to startour conversation this way.
Just you know we're going totalk about goal setting and
getting things done and all therest of it, but really at the
heart of happiness are people,the right people.
And so again and again and again, you see the lesson if you look
(08:26):
for it.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
Other people matter and I satthere and just envisioned for a
second what it would be likepicking up those phones.
And yeah, it's often.
I feel as if it can be oftenfor some people that it's not
(08:48):
until the last moment that werealize or reflect on what's
really the most meaningful thingin life, and I believe hearing
what you said is a reminder andmaybe even a call to action for
people to do some inventory.
What are you really placing themost value on right now?
So it's a beautiful startingpoint and I appreciate you
(09:13):
offering those two contributionsthere and wow, we're already
rolling so with that.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Where do we go from here?
What do you say, say hello.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
One thing we didn't cover before we started well, I
understand from you is what ledyou down this journey of being
so passionate about helpingpeople achieve their goals and
also develop the frameworks thatyou did, but more so around
(09:44):
goal achievement of all thethings that we could do in this
life and the endlesspossibilities.
What led you to land on thisLike for me personally and we
talked a little before the bigreason why you see that goal
board behind me really goes backto my earliest years and from a
very traumatic place and goalsetting for me and discovering
(10:09):
that is my way of ensuring thatthe generational curse of
alcoholism and trauma and abusein my family dies and it's done
and the more I focus on that,the further I get from ever
creating that possibility.
So if you could go into theorigin story of Caroline and
(10:32):
goals and where do we go there?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Gosh.
Wow, this is a deepconversation.
First of all, congratulationson all that you've done to
distance yourself.
I have been sober for 40 years,so I understand that journey as
well.
I guess, if you reverseengineer my life, it really all
started when I overcame bulimia,when I was 22.
So in the early 1980s I justgraduated from Harvard, which
(10:59):
was filled with other peoplewith heating disorders.
I mean, it was truly anepidemic.
I was a swimmer Swimmers werenotorious for this, runners,
gymnasts, whatever and I thoughtI was going to die because
there was no cure, there was nohope, and I thought getting
married would take it away.
(11:20):
And sure enough, I was purgingon my honeymoon in Jamaica and I
just remember looking in themirror, thinking this thing is
going to kill me, I don't evenhave a future.
And I stumbled into a 12-stepmeeting for compulsive eaters in
Baltimore a few months laterand that was where I heard this
sentence that changed my life,and the sentence was my name is
(11:41):
Betsy and I'm recovering frombulimia, one day at a time.
And I remember my head jerkedup.
I had never heard all thosewords in a sentence and I didn't
know people talked about it.
I mean, you got to rememberthis was Karen Carpenter died,
and it was just shame, and thatwas the day I knew I was going
to get better.
So something inside of mekicked in, and so overcoming
(12:04):
bulimia and then writing thefirst autobiography by anyone
who recovered my Name isCaroline is the book.
I realized I could do hardthings and I realized that I
could cultivate grit, and I did.
And so I think that that, allpiled together with Olympic
athletes or Olympic goldmedalists in my family, et
cetera, I just realized that Iam a competitive person.
(12:27):
You can take it to the darkside, which I think I did.
But how do you become your verybest self without developing
stupid grit?
And how do you help otherpeople raise their profile of
who they think they can be?
How do you help them dreambigger?
And that's what I love to domore than anything.
(12:47):
So, discovering goal-settingtheory when I went back to
school at midlife, oh my God, itwas like I don't know.
It was like a match to a torch.
I just I could not believethere was science to goals, and
my whole life changed in 2005.
(13:08):
I honestly couldn't believethere was a science to goal
setting and I thought I knew itand then I found out I knew
nothing.
So that's been the missionsince 2005, but probably earlier
than that, in a different form.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I appreciate how you've converted we'll call it a
trauma into triumph as well.
And then it led you down thisroad and perfect segue, as you
brought up the discovery in 2005, which is what I opened up with
at the start of chapter threethe 800-pound gorilla.
(13:45):
And this is what I've been mostexcited to talk with you about,
because up until this point, upuntil the very recent future of
getting this book, I figured Iknow plenty about goal setting
(14:06):
and share some stats and figuresand love to talk about it.
And then I'm sitting herescratching my head like how the
heck did I not know this?
What is going on?
So what do we get wrong, webeing society, and what do we
(14:29):
fundamentally get wrong aboutgoal setting and its classic
teachings, or the lessons thatwe hear the most, or the
acronyms such as SMART, which wewere talking about before?
starting what's fundamentallywrong with those things.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Oh gosh, I think we get a lot of things wrong.
But, like you, I really thoughtI knew goal setting.
I owned all the books ZigZiglar, brian Tracy, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
I quoted from them.
The Harvard study of 1950,write your goals down.
3% of people write their goalsdown.
Then they, I mean, I reallythought I knew science because
(15:12):
these books had it.
Then I'm, you know, I'm assignedgoal setting theory by Locke
and Latham and I realized whatthere's a science that's stuck
in academia.
And then I went home and lookedat every book not one footnote,
not one reference, all urbanlegends and snake oil.
So I went on a mission to startsharing this.
And what we get wrong is thatwe don't realize there's a
science and it's not our faultbecause I think it has been
(15:33):
stuck in academia.
I've done my best to bring itto the world.
But as a woman, I tell you, theone area where women have made
zero progress in the lasthundred years is in being seen
as agentic.
We are not allowed to beagentic and goal-directed
because we pay quite a penaltyfrom both men and women.
So I'm walking into the mouthof the lion by being a woman
(15:54):
writing about the science ofgoal-setting.
But what we get wrong is there'sgoal-setting theory.
It divides goals into two goalsand if you get two kinds of
goals, if you get it wrong, youknow you're you're off on the
wrong foot right away.
And that's.
There's learning goals thingsyou've never done before.
You have to acquire skills andknowledge.
It's a whole different processfor proceeding.
And then they call itperformance goals.
(16:14):
I call it checklist goals,because those are things you
have done before that fit on thechecklist.
So we get that wrong.
And what we've all fallen forare these acronyms like SMART
goals, which was created by aconsultant in 1981.
He didn't know science and itwas published and it was sticky
and problem is there are 55definitions for it.
(16:35):
Outcome to any goal learning orchecklist is challenging and
specific.
The minute you look at theSMART breakdown, you realize
it's doing you a disservice whenit says attainable or realistic
.
That's not how you're going toget your best outcome.
So that's just one thing thatwe get wrong.
(16:56):
And then there's so many othersthat we can go into.
But first is you got to knowgoal setting theory and I hope
I've made it easy and readablefor people to learn in this book
.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Let's break it down a little bit, because you
described goal setting theory asthe engine for your bridge
framework, which I believe thiswill lead us into, and you
mentioned that the research fromLocke and Latham breaks goal
setting theory down intolearning and performance goals,
(17:27):
and what I really interpretedfrom it as well in the book and
through some additional researchis that it sounds like the
harder the goal or the moredifficult the goal, that's
actually better because it'sgoing to bring the best out of
you.
Am I misinterpreting that atall?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
No, you're right, so you shouldn't be attaining all
your goals.
That shows that maybe youdidn't stretch hard enough, you
weren't creative enough in theways in which you went about
pursuing your goals.
But they did find, over andover hundreds of studies.
This is why it's ranked numberone of 73 management theories,
number one with no replication,crises, no challenges, no
(18:10):
cheating, no made-up data.
I mean that's really roilingthe field of psychology and
sociology is all this made-updata.
They've never had a challenge.
So what's super important isthat you set the goals and that
you break them down, and I'lljust give you a great example of
(18:30):
a learning goal and aperformance goal.
That happened yesterday.
Was it yesterday the Super Bowl?
Okay, so if you are pursuing alearning goal, it's the first
time you've done it.
What I was looking at andthinking about Patrick Mahomes
or any quarterback there's areason why there's training camp
is because when teams gettogether in the spring to start
(18:50):
training together, it's alearning goal.
They haven't played with eachother before.
Maybe it's a new offensivecoordinator.
You know how to play football,you're there, but you're
learning new ways of interactingwith people.
A new playbook, a newquarterback, whatever.
That's a learning goal, aperformance goal.
I was listening to how the NFLgoes about picking the cities
for hosting the Super Bowl andthey said they have a checklist.
(19:14):
So they have a checklist of allthe things you have to do,
starting two years before theSuper Bowl, because it's a
checklist goal.
But you know each city, kind ofyou know New Orleans is
different from Denver orwhatever.
But that is a great example ofwhy some goals are checklist
goals and you can say there'sthe date by which I'll
accomplish it and here's theexcellence I'm striving for.
(19:35):
And then learning goals are.
You know you're learning how todo it and by the time you're
playing the game or whatever,you will have adapted to a
certain level of excellence thatyou can keep pushing yourself
on.
But when you asked me aboutchallenging and specific, I just
want to quickly say this onething the research is very clear
that at the end of every day wescan our days for what we did
(20:00):
that day that were hard, becausethose are the things that
actually give us authenticself-esteem and there's no other
way to get it.
It's by going outside of yourcomfort zone in pursuit of
meaningful goals and doing hardthings that allows us to become
the best version of ourselvesand the world rewards that
behavior.
The world rewards that behavior.
(20:22):
The world does not rewardpeople who set easy goals.
And that is fascinating, andLocke and Latham grappled with
that because they kept findingpeople who were setting low
goals, were happier as they wentalong and they were like why
are people having this sustainedwell-being as they accomplish
(20:42):
these short-term goals, but thelonger-term goals are a little
bit miserable while they'repursuing it?
And then they went bingo.
Because the world rewards hardgoals that you're not always
happy about while you'repursuing them, because you're
acquiring skills and you'refailing at times.
So you develop self-esteem,authentic self-esteem, and the
(21:05):
world rewards that.
And that's why when you watchthe Olympics, there are no
participation trophies.
It's first, second, third, Iand what I see a lot of now, is
you know?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
just 10X, your goals and whatever you think is
challenging.
Multiply that by 10 and nowthat's your goal.
And because even if you don'tget there, you may achieve 5X,
which is still monumental versusmaybe what was easy at 0x or at
baseline.
So are there validity in thosethings or is it a little bit
(21:56):
more intricate or simple, as itrelates to where do we draw a
line between making somethinghard?
Where do we draw a line betweenmaking something hard?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
So I'm not a fan of just saying10x your goals or double what
you did last year.
It has to be based on somethingspecific.
So too often venturecapitalists, for example, or
investors they'll buy a companyand they'll say 5x your profits
by the time we cash out in twoyears or whatever, but it's not
based on any real conversation.
(22:26):
Is there some learning going on?
Do you have to build artificialintelligence into how this
company operates?
We've just had a black swanevent the coronavirus.
How are you going to delivergroceries to people if nobody's
accepting deliveries?
How do you sell a car when youcan't see people?
So to just go, oh, let's 10exit without any kind of
(22:46):
conversations, like is thereanything new here that we have
to learn?
We got to take the time toactually do that.
That's what you really have tohave are nuanced conversations,
and I just finished reading theMercer Global Workplace Report,
which is a lot of fine print.
But one of the things everycorporation, like over 90%, say
(23:06):
is they're going to have to havelearning goal conditions,
because they have to stop andfigure out how is this
artificial intelligence going tomake them more excellent and
efficient?
And they have to stop trainpeople.
There's upskilling going on.
You can't just say 10x what youhad last year.
You got to add a lot of skillsand knowledge to see really what
you can be capable of.
(23:27):
But still make it hard.
Just don't automatically sayit's got to be this number.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Or pieces of the puzzle, rather.
So going to People willdisengage.
Is there any research thatsuggests a percentage breakdown
(23:53):
between learning goals andperformance goals?
Because what I heard islearning goal is something
you're doing for the first time,and then performance goals.
They're not new things, butthey could be those checklist
items, as we're still relativelyfresh into 2025, caroline, is
there an ideal breakdown that30% of your goals should be
(24:15):
first-time learning goals and70% performance, or is there not
really an ideal mix between thetwo?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, I think what Locke and Latham found is that
most of our goals are learninggoals, and learning goals become
performance goals or checklistgoals.
I'll call it checklist for therest of the the rest of our
interview, because you get aperformance out of both kinds of
goals.
So it gets confusing for people.
But the reason why learninggoals are so important is
(24:43):
because when people are engagedin the process of curiosity and
acquiring knowledge and beingopen to the learning and it's
okay to fail, it's okay to takesome time to add this knowledge
they're more engaged at work,and disengagement at work is one
of the biggest problems thatcompanies have because it leads
to a lack of productivity.
So you want to be able toidentify your goals correctly at
(25:06):
the outset, whether you're in acompany or these are your
personal goals.
Because in the process ofgiving yourself the grace to
find a mentor on YouTube, tofind, you know, maybe just
whatever a class on YouTube, amentor out there that you reach
out to you really have to takethe time to figure out what's
this platform I'm building formyself.
(25:27):
So I don't think there's anideal breakdown, but I think
it's far more learning goalsthan people even suspected and
even if let's say I've got agreat story that I always tell
in speeches about one of the topcar salesmen or Dodge Jeep
salesmen in Pennsylvania, andwhen coronavirus hit, the whole
(25:47):
showroom shut down and he didn'tknow how to sell a car because
he had always been a backslapper.
He rode in the cars with peopleand he went home and said to his
kids teach me how to text, getme on Facebook.
I got to figure out a whole newway to sell cars and so he gave
himself time to understandtechnology.
And then you know what's sointeresting when you read the
(26:08):
story about him in the newspaperbecause this is where I found
it he had his best month everafter he gave himself time to
learn these new things, to geton the computer, to text people,
to go on Facebook Instead ofgoing in a car with them.
He would FaceTime them whilethey were driving, and so, yes,
that was a checklist goal forhim, but he had to add some
learning components to it and itbecame a checklist goal for him
(26:30):
again and he's having his bestyear ever and continues to have
best years.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
What's interesting about what you said there is
that he took time, and I believein the world that we live in
now, it's often suggested thatwe shouldn't take time to maybe
slow down, to speed up If we'rethinking about incorporating
(27:07):
this goal setting theory intoour playbook and as this episode
will likely release in secondquarter of 2025.
So if we were to break down theyear into quarters, we'll call
it a new quarter.
Maybe first quarter didn't goso well for people, but folks
are listening now and they'rethinking okay, I want to go
ahead and test some of thisstuff out.
Is there some sort of questioninventory that you go through
(27:33):
Like, okay, what are some, whatare, what's one thing that I
want to do differently this yearthat I didn't do in 2024?
Or how can we really prepourselves to adopt goal setting
theory?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, it's really good question.
So the first thing you want tosay is why am I pursuing this
goal?
What's its meaning in my life?
So the first thing you have tomake sure is it's it's got some
relevance to your values and whoyou want to become and what you
want to be remembered for.
So these, these are reallyimportant goals that we have to
consider every year.
So let's say, you want to quitsmoking and you have tried to
(28:15):
quit smoking two other times andit didn't succeed and you're
wondering well, why didn't I?
That is still a learning goalfor you because you have not
quit successfully yet.
So what you want to do is goback and say what parts of it
did work for me With beingaround a different group of
people.
Did I abstain longer?
Was there a gum that I used?
I mean, what pieces that workedfor me before can I bring back
(28:38):
in?
And then, what's new?
What's out there that I couldtry?
That's different.
So it could be acupuncture, itcould be anything.
But what you do when you have alearning goal is you cast the
net wider for information, youfind more mentors, you find more
sources of knowledge, but youalways ask yourself what's new?
What have I not tried before?
(29:02):
Make it a high goal for you totry a new approach to learning
this, but make it aggressive.
By Friday I will have, forexample, you want to learn how
to salsa dance.
By Friday, I will have gone tothree different studios to look
at the teachers and I want tosee if the classes speak to me.
It's not like, hey, I'll go onthe internet and just check it
(29:23):
out.
By Friday I'll go to threeplaces and I will have an
opinion at the end of Friday.
So you want to make it hard foryourself to you know, acquire
the knowledge and then begin toexperiment.
Will this help me accomplishthat goal?
So that's, that's the firstthing.
If it's a checklist goal, ifit's something you've done
before, go back to yourchecklist.
If you're missing the mark, goback.
(29:44):
Is there something you didbefore that you are skipping now
?
Because we find, like surgeonsbefore, they had checklists
going into surgery, these highlyskilled doctors.
They were sure that theyremembered every step that
needed to be taken in order tosuccessfully remove a
gallbladder, but people werestill dying on the table until
they found.
(30:04):
Checklists matter.
So when you're packing yoursuitcase, when you're doing
surgery, when you're a pilottaking off, make sure you have a
checklist and then again askyourself what's new?
Is there a way to improve yourchecklist?
Check it out with other peopleand then you want to set a hard
date and a hard outcome so thatyou're seeking excellence and I
(30:25):
really believe in my bridgemethod, ours relationships you
really have to have the rightgroup around you, holding you
accountable and cheering for youand holding your feet to the
fire, so it's more than just thelearning and performance.
Once you get that, you go intothis next set of steps you have
to go through in order to reallymake it possible for yourself
(30:47):
to succeed.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Do you ever find that and perhaps have you even
struggled with this yourself attimes?
Being a high performer and usambitious folks, sometimes we
may wrestle with hard not beinghard enough, Like, do you ever
look at something and you knowthat somebody else where you
(31:14):
have a strong sense thatsomebody else would say, holy
smokes, that's insane, Caroline,but to you it's not hard enough
because you're a high performer?
And if so, how have youovercome that?
Discipline is a key componentof this podcast and a key thing
(31:40):
that we preach.
We view discipline as the fuelto help you create the life that
you ultimately desire, anddiscipline being the fuel that
gets your habits and systems incheck so that you can actually
accomplish your goals.
If you're looking to level upin 2025, I am happy to be a part
of that and encourage you tojoin the Unshakable Discipline
(32:02):
Mastermind Group.
This has been my baby for acouple years and we're finally
launching it here in 2025.
The group consists of aself-paced course that teaches
you how to form core habits andmindset that will allow you to
accomplish your goals, a dailyaccountability channel to keep
you on track, motivated and inalignment with our members, and
(32:26):
weekly mastermind sessions whereyou're going to learn from
either myself or a suite ofrenowned guests many who have
been on the podcast that aregoing to share pieces of their
winning playbooks directly withyou.
I've learned that being a partof groups over the years has
helped propel me to so many newlevels in life.
(32:50):
If you want to go fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, then gotogether, and it's my wish that
the Unshakable Crew is a choicethat makes sense for you in 2025
.
We are growing up to 100members this year and have
limited time founding memberpricing for 12 more folks before
(33:14):
we permanently increase pricingto $97 a month.
You can get in now for $67 amonth, locked in for life, and
be a part of the adventure thatwe're creating with our members.
If you're somebody that cravesdiscipline, seeks it or wants it
this year, and you're reallycommitted to making lasting
(33:37):
changes in your life and beingaround others that are committed
to winning and serving theworld and sharing what they
learn with others so that wemake this world a better place,
then join the Unshakeable crew.
Go to unshakabledisciplinecomand you can sign up.
It is also in the show notesUnshakeable shake, as in
(34:00):
milkshake,unshakabledisciplinecom, and
we're excited to have you in2025.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
You know that's such a good question.
So around the corner from me isKatie Ledecky.
She grew up in my neighborhood,right, and so just this adorable
little swimmer I choose to taketo swim practice, um or just
you know she was in the sameswim practices as my kids and I
just watched this ebullientlittle girl set ridiculous goals
(34:31):
, starting at the age of six,seven, eight, nine, 10.
And she had goals that otherpeople would say were completely
unattainable.
Except Katie was made ofsomething different.
Katie had a mindset and a workethic that her coach recognized
and he pushed her to set thosekinds of goals.
So if you know somebody, orsomebody who knows you well and
(34:52):
whose judgment you trust, thinksthat maybe you are
undershooting the mark becauseyou haven't really given
yourself credit for what youreally are made of, then you
might want to go a little bitharder or seek the kind of
advice from a board of directorsthat would help you to do that.
Sometimes I do that, but Ithink it's also important.
There are times when you don'thave to set just the hardest
(35:14):
possible goals and when you lookat the research on resilience
and stress, sometimes whenpeople have had a big failure,
an epic fail, they just have toget back on the horse that threw
them and they just have to geta win, and maybe it's a quick
win, but it's a win.
It's a feeling of mastery.
We all have to have that.
So I think that when you knowpeople are judging other
(35:35):
people's goals, they don'talways understand what's hard
for me may not be hard for you,and it may not be hard enough
because you don't believe inyourself enough and someone else
does.
So mastermind groups can beincredibly helpful in helping
people to dream bigger, gobolder and celebrate.
(35:56):
So I know you're intomastermind groups too, but I do
think everyone should be in oneor two mastermind groups of the
right people who help them toanswer these kinds of questions.
But you have to have a board ofdirectors people who look at
you and you're willing to havethem look at you, which requires
humility, and humility is a keyingredient of grit, and I don't
(36:17):
think most people understandthe link between humility and
grit.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Amen to that and we're going to get into the
bridge framework, but I'll speakon the relationships piece and
board of directors, as youmentioned, as maybe something
that will help at least oneperson.
And one thing I do every year isI obviously write out my goals
and then I type them up and Iwrite a personal letter to
(36:42):
myself and I send that out to myboard of directors or a bunch
of my mentors.
And because I also believe inthe fact that, if one stat that
I love to share is my twofavorite stats in the world, dr
Abigail Matthews did a study onpeople that write their goals
(37:02):
down versus don't write theirgoals down and found that just
by writing your goals down,you're 42% more likely to
achieve them.
Additional studies showed thatwhen you share your goals with a
group of people, your odds ofachieving it increased to
roughly 70%, because now youknow there's a group of folks
(37:23):
that not only are they informed,but you, being a person that
values your word, probably wantsto work a little bit harder now
that somebody's involved andthere's always one mentor of
mine, bill Bill Stephens, that Iknow when I send my goals out
and they're often very loftyhe'll either.
(37:47):
Yep, that's definitely astretch.
Or sometimes he'll come backand say did you think about that
?
Or are we leaving a little biton the table and I can speak to
the benefit of having thosefolks around, because there's
been some where I've increased,because my board of directors
(38:09):
say, hey, you got more in youthan you think.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, that's humble to do that, to send that out.
Let me make a comment onwriting goals down.
So I would love to have yousend me that study, in
particular the Abigail Matthews,because chasing down some of
the research on writing downyour goals is really elusive at
times, because it's usuallywriting down your goals and then
(38:35):
the other piece is specifyingthe when and where you're going
to do that.
So it's not enough to write itdown, you have to actually go
that.
Next step.
You know, if this happens, thenI'll do that the if, then
implementation intentions.
Next step If this happens, thenI'll do that the if-then
implementation intentions.
Also, people get into what'scalled positive fantasizing, and
that's really destructive.
So when you write your goalsdown and don't back it up with
(38:57):
any kind of work oraccountability, what you often
find is people begin to believethey've done more to accomplish
that goal than they've done.
That's Gabriel Ottingen's work,and so it's called mental
contrasting, and so you don'twant to dwell too often in like
visualization boards or you knowall these things that we've
(39:18):
been told.
Imagine yourself on the topstep of the podium.
That's actually destructive,and so you, you, if you do too
much of it.
So you want to imagine yourself.
It's like you write this letterto yourself in the future.
You want to imagine yourself inthat place, that place you want
to be, but not for long.
You want to then turn aroundand go back to the present day
(39:38):
and go.
What are the obstacles in frontof me, what are the evils I'm
about to meet on this road?
And that's what the ancientStoics called premeditatio
malorum premeditate the evilsthat are going to happen as you
walk down the road towards yourdestination.
And so that's what GabrielAdagin this whoop method, she
came up with.
But that's basically what it isWish you know, and then you've
(40:01):
got these obstacles, and thenyou overcome them, and that's
your plan.
You overcome them and that'syour plan.
So that's why I think we got totake a little bit of a grain of
salt.
When you write it down, there isa way to write it down and when
you tell people here's theother piece this is really,
really, really important.
(40:21):
There's research on what'scalled goal shielding, and goal
shielding is when you share yourgoals with the wrong people,
and it has the power to dissuadeyou from pursuing your goals if
you share them with the wrongpeople and if they do not
(40:43):
respond.
With this form of respondingthat's been studied, active,
constructive responding,curiosity and enthusiasm you may
very well have dug the gravefor your goal before you even
start.
So it's not just sharing itwith other people.
It's sharing it with people whoyou know have a track record of
(41:03):
curiosity and enthusiasm aboutyour goals.
They're happy for you.
There's very few words in theworld, in any language, that
mean I'm happy because of yourhappiness.
That's because people don'talways do it.
There's a lot of schadenfreude.
I spent years and years lookingfor the opposite of
schadenfreude because we wereasked in 2005 to find it.
(41:24):
I found it in Australia andit's um fear gun.
It's an untranslatable Yiddishword.
I'm happy because you're happy.
And then there's mudita, inSanskrit Um.
But you know what?
What you really have to becareful of is who are the people
who are privy to your dreamsand goals?
It shouldn't just be anybody,and maybe it shouldn't even be
(41:45):
people in your family, becausemaybe you're shaking up the
family by having these big goalsand people are going wow, how
am I going to look when heachieves that running thing that
he's doing?
So you got to be careful.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
This is fantastic, caroline.
This is absolutely fantastic.
On that last note, is it fairif someone doesn't avoid doing
that and getting the wrongperson on the bus?
Is it a fair question to ask?
Do I believe that this personis genuinely curious and
(42:20):
invested in me?
Challenge that with someadditional inventory that we
should take before we, before weshoot this off to somebody I
know unknowingly, potentiallyunknowingly, dissuading
ourselves from the goal and andkilling any chance that we have
of getting there.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, a couple of things.
One is the research is by awoman named Shelly Gable at the
University of California, santaBarbara, and she talks about
doing an experiment.
And it's like the red button onthe smoke detector Don't just
assume somebody is going to becurious and enthusiastic because
you know they should be.
You know it's your sister, it'syour mother, it's you know it's
somebody who should be happyfor you.
(43:01):
She said push the red button onthe smoke detector with a fake
piece of good news or a bigdream fake and see how they
respond, because if they don'trespond with curiosity and
enthusiasm, they just told youwho they are.
Believe them, believe them.
So goal shielding means shieldyour dreams and goals,
particularly in the nascentstage, in the earliest possible
(43:24):
stage, like a tree that's justbeen planted and it's got the
wire around it to keep it fromblowing out when the big winds
come.
Treat your goals and dreamslike that, don't just
willy-nilly share it with otherpeople without that proof.
And then the second thing Iwant to say is women are really,
really bad at being happy forother women who succeed at their
(43:46):
goals, and that's for all kindsof reasons.
It's called biosocial theory.
There's a lot of reasons whywomen are not happy for other
women.
There's scarcity theory, etcetera.
84% of women admit they'resurrounded by friends who are
enemies, frenemies, and for thatreason they do not take care of
their goals.
(44:07):
And so well, two things happen.
One is, if they share theirgoals and they're surrounded by
frenemies because they wanteveryone to think they're nice,
then it's a good chance thatyour dream will be rained on.
And the second thing is there'sso much research showing that
women who are agentic andgoal-directed are going to piss
(44:27):
both men and women off andthey're going to pay a huge
penalty.
So women in particular have tobe very, very careful about who
knows their dreams and goals andwho's going to celebrate with
them.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Wow, now I'm going to go ask my girlfriend, who all
she's told yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Or ask her how often does she put something on
LinkedIn or Instagram, somethingshe's proud of and not get
likes?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
You'd be surprised how wounding it is, because
women are wired to need otherwomen.
It's called tend and befriend,and what women do so well and so
cruelly is they ghost otherwomen and they shut them out of
the tribe by ignoring them orshaming them.
Because that's what littlegirls learn to do.
While boys learn to fight,little girls learn to fight with
(45:18):
their words and with shamingand ghosting other women.
And it goes on for the rest ofyour life.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I hate to say goes on for the rest of your life.
I hate to say, as I was doingmy prep and listening to other
podcasts that you've been on.
You talk a lot about what thelatest research shows as it
relates to men and women andgoals, and so I'd love, since
we're on that track right now,what are some of the not nuances
(45:50):
, but we'll call it fundamentaltopics or things to consider as
it relates to men and women andgoals, Because I always
envisioned that it was universal, that, hey, everybody should
have goals and they're likelymotivated in the same ways.
But you've showed that that'snot the case and it's important
(46:13):
that we bring this to theforefront, in addition to things
like goal setting theory,because they're not discussed
enough.
So what are some of the keythings that we should understand
here?
Speaker 1 (46:24):
So there's a couple things.
One is we're just starting nowto ask the questions of the
research and parse it in newways.
To say, does that finding holdfor women as well as it does for
men?
One example I gave you beforewe started was Adam Grant's book
Give and Take, which talkedabout being a giver, and if
you're a giver and you givewithout strings, you will reap
(46:45):
all the rewards in terms ofsuccess, because other people
will be at your side.
And then, if you overgive andyou give to takers, you end up
at the bottom.
So that was designated thebusiness book of the year in
2017.
The problem is, the researchdoes not show that women who
give get rewarded.
Women who give are expected togive, and so if they do not give
(47:05):
, if they guard their time, ifthey have boundaries because
they have their own work to getdone, they will pay a social
penalty again.
They will be seen as they'reall kinds of words you know
self-absorbed mean cruel, cold,whatever, but men who have
boundaries, they never pay apenalty for it.
So that's just one thing thathappens when men and women are
(47:26):
onboarding at the same companyand they're um, they are asked
to go to happy hours to meettheir new colleagues, et cetera.
Women who follow through and goto those get to know you.
Events are seen as cold andself-absorbed and abrasive and
whatever.
Um and too ambitious.
And men who go to the happyhours they're seen as well.
That's what men do.
Ambitious and men who go to thehappy hours they're seen as
well, that's what men do.
That's just another example.
(47:49):
So women pay a price, even whenthey're told to go do this.
When men and women are giventhe same tasks at work and women
finish on time and do it well,but men take longer maybe do it
as well, but always take longerwork nights and weekends they're
actually rewarded for thatbehavior.
They're seen as more dedicatedto the company.
So when women finish things ontime, they're penalized as well.
(48:16):
Women don't have role modelsthe way men do.
So we know that self-efficacycomes from reading stories and
hearing stories about womenwho've succeeded at things, and
Wikipedia has acknowledged thatonly 18% of the biographies in
there are of women.
82% are of men.
And that's because there's ahuge problem with men deleting
(48:37):
women's biographies, and evenone woman who got the Nobel
Prize for physics, they deletedher biography the year she won
the Nobel because they said shewasn't noteworthy enough, and
that matters, because you beginto shoot too low in goal setting
if you don't see and hearexamples of success that sound
like you, that look like you,and that just isn't happening
(49:00):
enough.
I told you that there's thisproblem with dude podcasts.
I mean, I've listened tosuccess podcasts for hours at a
time and one day I realized forseven hours all I'd heard were
men talking to other men aboutmen.
You know, ceos, presidents,special forces, special forces,
special forces and there wasn'tone example used that was about
(49:21):
women.
So women end up shooting toolow, shooting too low.
And then there's one more thingI'll just say.
There's so many things to say,but in the workplace, women do
not get feedback that matchestheir efforts.
So in performance reviews,they're told very general things
, whereas men are givenleadership kind of feedback, and
(49:42):
feedback is a huge moderator ingoal setting theory.
You have to get accuratefeedback in order to know if
you're on the right path.
So women have to seek outpeople who will give them real,
accurate feedback or at leastchallenge the feedback they're
getting if it doesn't match whatthey've actually done.
So the deck is very muchstacked against women and Mark
(50:03):
Zuckerberg, when he said theworkplace has to get more
masculine just recently, saidhe's talking about the kinds of
behaviors that are not rewardedin women, that are rewarded in
men.
So the workplace is now tiltedmore against women.
So there's a lot of ways inwhich women's goal setting is
penalized, and it's just tragic.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Is this something that you often bring up with the
companies that you're speakingto or work with, and if you are
consulting with any companies tocombat that, what does that
look like?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
to talk about it, because they see, let's say, one
woman getting onto a board andnever pulling other women along
with her, or there's a mean girlin the office.
There's something calledkicking and climbing.
That's very common inmale-dominated professions law,
medicine, et cetera where, aswomen rise, they don't climb and
lift, they kick and climb.
And so, pointing this out,there is something called
climbing and lifting where womenlook up in a company and they
(51:11):
see other women at the top andit's a female dominated company.
What they see are climbing andlifting.
So you need to educate people,you need to bring it up.
It is painful because there isa myth that the sisterhood
supports all women.
So you have to at least talkabout it, and I have all kinds
(51:32):
of ideas about how to deal withit, but one that I hope will
stick is ampli-ship.
I think that we are missing aterm when it comes to talking
about whether or not we helpother people or women helping
women.
We've got mentorship,sponsorship and allyship, and
(51:55):
they're not muscular enoughbecause they don't determine
whether or not that behavioractually took place with
witnesses.
So I talk about ampli-ship.
I think it's important toamplify the good news and
successes of other women infront of witnesses, because if
you don't, if it's not witnessed, it's too easy to say it
happened when it didn't happen.
And so those are the kinds oftough conversations you have,
(52:17):
but people are forewarned.
They bring me in if they knowI'm going to talk about it,
because I think it's the hiddenhand that holds women back.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I appreciate you being anadvocate and voicing this out
and educating us, because youknow, and again, one thing I
truly, truly appreciate aboutyou, caroline, and your work, is
that this is, this is soprofound and I and I wish that
(52:47):
I'm like, why the heck didn't welearn about this earlier?
And I'm excited for where yourwork takes you, as specifically
as it relates to the opportunitythat we have with women and
goal setting.
Now, one thing that I want tomake sure we don't miss is that
(53:07):
we've danced around the bridgenow and we threw smart out the
window early on and youdeveloped the bridge framework
which we can apply to our goals,with goal setting theory being
the engine, bridge beingbrainstorm, relationships,
investment, decision-making,good grit and excellent.
(53:32):
So how can we apply the bridgemethod?
And let's break that down.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, thank you for circling back to this.
So I do think Locke andLatham's goal setting theory is
just a fundamental, importantpiece of setting any goal.
You start there and then buildfrom there.
What has happened since theypublished goal-setting theory in
1990 and then updated it in2013 with the work on priming is
that there's been a lot ofnewer research on things like.
(54:02):
There's a really powerfulfinding in positive psychology
that happiness precedes success,which is stunning.
When you think about it, youknow success doesn't follow.
Success doesn't come.
Wait a minute.
You don't become happy becauseyou're successful.
It's the opposite, which meansthat when you're studying goal
setting, you have to take a lookat wellbeing and what are the
(54:23):
wellbeing measures that we havefor ourselves.
So we're looking at things likecharacter strengths.
So there's a whole world of newfeedback, including this gender
work, that has come out sincegoal setting theory, and I've
been I was pondering for 15years how do I integrate this
new research and put it on topof goal setting theory?
And finally, um, a man, um, aprofessional colleague of mine
(54:46):
woke up after having a dream,but he saw a bridge in his dream
and it was like my method andI'd been playing with other
acronyms and he called me out.
He's bridge, caroline's bridge.
It's the gap it's from here tothere.
It's like, oh my God, you'rebrilliant.
Okay, so it is what it is isit's a series of prompts.
It's like artificialintelligence.
If you go through promptsaround, brainstorming, what's
new?
If there was a Star Treksolution to this challenge, what
(55:09):
would that look like?
You have to ask yourself out ofthe box questions that I have
in the book.
You have to brainstormeffectively, not just sit in a
room with people who look likeyou and sound like you and all
went to the same school that'sdead on arrival.
So there's brainstorming, andthe brainstorming includes is
this a learning goal or aperformance goal?
Actually, you start right there.
Relationships who needs to bepart of my goal setting pursuit?
(55:32):
Who do I need to keep away fromme?
That's just as important, ifnot more important.
You have to have boundariesaround people who will take your
energy, be Debbie Downers,whatever you want to call them.
But you also have to look aheadand say do I need this person
in this department of my companyin a month or two to be part of
my solution?
If so, I got to tell thatperson now.
(55:53):
So relationships matter.
Investments People don't alwaysthink about how much time do I
have to invest, how much energy,how much money Do I have to get
into therapy in order to beable to face that challenge?
Do I have to invest in that?
Do I need a coach?
If I want to speak publicly, doI have to get a speech coach?
I mean, people don't thinkthrough the investments.
Then the really cool thing wasdecision-making.
(56:15):
I got way into the rabbit holein decision-making science
because most people don't knowtheir decision-making tree and
they haven't thought throughwhen have I made my best
decisions and when have I mademy worst decisions?
And then I started to look atin the book Annie Duke's work on
poker and things like resultingand having quit criteria.
(56:35):
So you have to have adecision-making process.
When are you going to pivot?
When are you going to turnaround?
You're heading up to themountain and the Sherpas say the
whiteout's coming.
When are you just going toabort?
So you got to have all that inplace too.
Good grit Do you have thepassion, the persistence, the
purpose?
Do you have the ability toself-regulate, to have this good
(56:55):
grit?
And then excellence you got toshoot for the excellence.
That's going to help you havethe right kind of self-esteem
and self-confidence.
So if it's too low, if yourexcellence bar is too low,
you're going to end up feelingmediocre and not as purposeful
as you might otherwise.
So you have to set theexcellence and off you go from
there.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
I love the framework, and so if someone were to set a
new learning goal, they wouldget clear on okay, here I'm
going to choose.
Let's say, my learning goal isgoing to be what's something?
I've never competed in atriathlon.
Okay, so I'm going to competein an ironman triathlon, so
(57:41):
that's my, that's my learninggoal, because I've never done
that, I've never competitivelyswam, never competitively cycled
, and and it's and it'simportant because this will be a
new way to challenge my bodyand mind, in which I can then
inspire other people tochallenge their body and minds
(58:03):
and do hard things, and ideallyalso to raise money for families
that have a loved one battlingcancer, since I tie a lot of my
ultra marathons to that.
So that's my learning.
Now do we go into the bridgefrom there?
Is that kind of the progressionpath?
Speaker 1 (58:22):
Yes.
So you get.
You say, yeah, it is a learninggoal.
What's so interesting is you'rea runner, you run a lot of
miles, but so you're not justsaying I'm going to do this
Ironman thing and boy, it's aperformance goal.
I got to get.
I got to finish my first one byOctober because I know how to
run.
Yeah, you know how to run, butyou've never put it all together
in a race.
So the first thing you say isokay, it's a learning goal.
I can't have a specific outcomeby a specific date, but I got
(58:45):
to give myself time, got to givemyself time to learn.
How have other people trainedfor it?
There's lots of books, there'swebsites, there's conferences.
So I'm going to go learn frompeople who look like me, who
have my body type, who have myage, whatever.
And so you figure out how toflatten your learning curve as
fast as possible that way.
And then you always say what'snew?
(59:06):
Is there a new way to do this?
Well, there's augmented reality.
Gosh, maybe I can wear GoogleGlass and I can go in augmented
reality and simulate what it'slike to do the whole thing.
So you always say what's new?
That's part of brainstormingRelationships who will I need.
I may need a coach, I may needsomeone to help me with my
stroke.
I'm going to have to get abicycle.
Well, that's the investmentsBicycle.
(59:26):
So the relationships.
And there's a guy in my book whoswam the English Channel last
year.
We went through his wholerelationships thing his
nutritionist, his acupuncturist,whatever.
Who do I need?
Who do I need to keep away fromme?
Investments yeah, you're goingto need a bike.
You're probably going to need abathing suit.
You're going to need like 10pairs of goggles.
(59:46):
You're going to need the rightkind of shampoo to get the
chlorine out of your hair.
If you train, you might have tojoin a pool, you know.
So you just go through all ofthat really carefully.
Another thing is this guy,dennis, who swam the English
Channel.
One of the investments he hadto make to swim the English
Channel was he had to hire, hehad to pick a slot two years
ahead of time and pay for it twoyears ahead of time.
So sometimes investments inIronman triathlons involve
(01:00:09):
putting a lot of money downright there, okay.
So there's investments, andthen there's decision-making.
Well, when do I want to do thefirst one?
How will I decide when I'mready?
So you go through all of thatprocess.
Does that make?
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
sense so far.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Okay and okay.
So, and how will I know when topivot?
If I have a broken ankle, am Igoing to keep training for it or
am I going to pivot and dosomething else?
You got to have your quitcriteria as part of your
decision-making Grit.
Do I have the right self-talk?
So when I want to quit becausesomething's getting really hard
(01:00:43):
and I want to quit because Ijust want to quit, do I have a
place I can go in my brain likea pain cave that will get me
through this?
I'll bet you have a pain cave.
I'll bet you've got a heck of apain cave.
And then excellence what isexcellence to you?
It might mean just finishing,you know, finishing your first
one.
And then, after you do a bunch,it becomes a checklist goal and
(01:01:05):
that's when you can say, bynext October, I can shoot for
this particular time becauseI've already, you know, done all
the learning.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Right Right.
That's so well illustrated andunderstandable and I appreciate
you breaking it down andproviding that context.
One thing I love about thebrainstorming portion and folks.
This book truly is packed withtons of research, studies,
stories, a lot of supplementalresources and there's 24
(01:01:37):
brainstorming no, 30brainstorming questions.
I'll pick out my favorite oneor unique one.
If an intelligent aliencivilization offered advice on
our goal, what unconventionalwisdom might they provide based
on their unique perspective?
So there's so many differentquestions we can go through in
(01:02:00):
this brainstorming process tohelp us create clarity.
It doesn't need to be this onequestion.
Think a little bit Right, Thinkoutside the box a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yes, yeah, can I give you a story about the Star Trek
question in there, please yeah,can I give you a story about
the Star Trek question in there,please yeah.
So I worked with Nadine Haram,who is the CEO of a company,
proxime, and she was doingDoctors Without Borders.
She's a surgeon, she's inEngland, in London actually, and
she would go do these tripswhere she would fix cleft
(01:02:31):
palates and do all this, youknow, surgery for free in these
third world countries or placeswhere they didn't have access to
surgery, and she would comeback and be on a high for a few
weeks and then she'd go.
My God, I'm barely moving theneedle.
So what if?
And then one day she had watchedStar Trek as a kid.
One day she saw like all theseoperating theaters connected
(01:02:53):
like Star Trek and she sawholograms of surgeons in all
these operating theatersconnected like Star Trek.
And she saw holograms ofsurgeons in all these operating
theaters and damned if shedidn't turn that into a company.
So now, Proxima, doctors canbeam into third world operating
rooms and their hands can hoverover the hands of a surgeon
(01:03:17):
who's doing surgery for thefirst time.
So, from this Star Trek thing,how could you solve this.
If it was Star Trek, it waslike beam me up, scotty.
She beams in surgeons all overthe world and this company is
changing the face of hospitalsnow and surgery.
Because she asked herself thatout of the box question what if
(01:03:38):
it was a Star Trek solution?
I find that so cool.
Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I love the story behind it.
That's amazing.
Caroline.
Do you have anything excitingcoming up or things that you'd
like to share, and how can wekeep up with you and all of the
amazing work that you're doing?
Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Gosh, thank you.
This has been a really movinginterview.
So I first want to thank you.
I am creating a certificate Irealize I can't get to enough
people with books and interviewsso certificate system where
people are going to comevirtually learn this process,
then go teach it in your school,your athletic team, whatever in
a company, so that I've alreadycreated it.
Now I have to film it.
So that's happening.
(01:04:18):
I'm writing a fuller book onwomen supporting women, because
I really do believe that we haveto learn ampli-ship.
So that's coming up and then Ijust, you know, keep doing the
work I'm doing.
I'm just really excited bysharing this knowledge.
And Locke and Latham are stillalive and gosh, those decades of
scholarship.
We all need to salute them.
(01:04:39):
I'd love to see them get theirjust due.
Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Yes, Amen to that.
It's customary on the podcastto end with a rapid fire session
and this is called One Gem, OneStep, One Book.
So imagine that we get to meetface-to-face someday and we're
going to lunch at a cool spot inDC and we're going in an
(01:05:01):
elevator.
We're going up three floors anda new person is going to enter
the elevator on each floor andthey're going up one floor.
They recognize you and each ofthem is going to ask you a
question.
So the amount of time you haveto answer the question is the
amount of time it takes to go upone elevator floor.
All right, so the first person,the first person gets in the
(01:05:23):
elevator.
They recognize you, they'veread, they've read your book,
they've read one of your ninebooks and they they come in and
say, Carolyn, what's one gemthat you have, whether it be a
quote or a mantra that you liveyour life by?
That I can put in my backpocket and live my life by as
well.
Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
You can't keep what you don't give away.
Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
That's what someone told me at a 12-step meeting for
compulsive eaters when I wasgetting better from bulimia, and
she went that's great, but youcan't keep it if you don't give
it away.
You better go give away yourrecovery if you want to keep it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
That's so beautiful, next person gets on.
What's one step that I can taketoday to begin my goal-setting
journey using your methods?
Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
my goal setting journey using your methods.
First thing I would tell peopleto do is make a list of things
they will regret not doing ifthey don't pursue them.
Start pursuing them now.
They're looking back on theirlife.
What are the things they wouldregret not pursuing?
Pick one and then walk throughthe bridge method and goal
setting theory and go after itthis year with the right set of
accountability partners.
Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
The last person gets on, and this might be the most
challenging question what's onebook besides yours that you
recommend reading in 2025 tohelp us reach our goals, improve
our mindsets and our way ofbeing?
Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
I'm going to give you a weird answer.
I read Ron Chernow's biographyof George Washington last year
and it was one of the mostextraordinary books I'd ever
read and I didn't realize thefragility of our democracy until
I read how we almost lost.
I didn't realize how close itwas.
And there's true leadershipexamples in that book, humility,
(01:07:22):
and I just thought everyAmerican should read this book
and every American should go toNormandy and see what happened
at D-Day.
I think we need to exposeourselves to exemplars of awe,
and when we find books thatevoke awe in us, like I'm
reading a Harriet Tubmanbiography right now, that's
where I want to live is in astate of awe.
Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
It's a very unique offering there and one we
haven't had, and I appreciatethat.
Caroline, this has been anabsolutely fantastic discussion.
I've truly enjoyed it, trulyenjoy your work, and if I had
any regrets, it's that I didn'tdiscover it until just recently,
and it's my wish that thisconversation prompts many people
(01:08:08):
to really dig into goal settingtheory and apply the bridge
method, because it is going tohelp them win today.
Thanks so much, you.
You asked me about challenging and specific.
I just want to quickly say thisone thing the research is very
clear that at the end of everyday we scan our days for what we
did that day that were hard,because those are the things
that actually give us authenticself-esteem and there's no other
way to get it.
It's by going outside of yourcomfort zone in pursuit of
(00:21):
meaningful goals and doing hardthings.
That allows us to become thebest version of ourselves, and
the world rewards that behavior.
The world rewards that behavior.
The world does not reward peoplewho set easy goals and that is
fascinating, and Locke andLatham grappled with that,
(00:42):
because they kept finding peoplewho were setting low goals were
happier as they went along, butthe real and they were like why
?
Why are people having thissustained well-being as they
accomplish these short termgoals?
But the longer term goals are alittle bit miserable while
they're pursuing it.
And then they went bingo.
Because the world rewards hardgoals that you're not always
(01:04):
happy about while you'repursuing them, because you're
acquiring skills and you'refailing at times.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome to the Wednesday podcast, a weekly
resource thoughtfully crafted tohelp people build and refine
discipline, accomplish theirgoals, fortify their mindsets
and be of service to somebody inthis world.
My name is Ryan Cass and I amyour host, and it is my mission
and commitment to deliveramazing episodes to you every
week where you will learn frommyself or a renowned expert in
(01:36):
their field.
We love helping people win inevery aspect of their lives, and
you can help us win by sharingthe show with somebody that you
believe will benefit from it,subscribing and leaving a rating
and review.
We believe that everybody inthis world is meant to do
something great with their lives, and we're here to help play a
(01:57):
role in that.
Thank you for tuning in andlet's win today.
Thank you.
(02:50):
They knew a secret that couldmake your life happier and more
successful.
Would you want to know what itwas?
Of course you would, and todayis your lucky day because this
chapter contains that secret.
And, unlike the runawaybestseller, the Secret of the
1980s, this secret isn't one ofmagical and fantastical promises
(03:11):
about how to make your dreamscome true.
This secret is the elusiveknowledge that I learned in
October 2005 that had been inacademic and management
textbooks for years, but ithadn't reached the mass markets
until my book, creating yourBest Life, was published in 2008
.
15 years later, there are stillonly a few books that have
(03:33):
shared this secret with thepublic, so let's make sure that
you and those around you learnit now.
And that's exactly what we'regoing to learn today, as we have
the queen of grit and goalswith us today, caroline Adams
Miller, who is the author ofnine books, including the one
(03:54):
that y'all just heard from BigGoals, the Science of Setting
them, achieving them andCreating your Best Life,
caroline, welcome.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Amen.
Thank you, what an opening Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
We just heard some cool stuff there and if we went
to your website, we can see thatyou've been a successful author
.
You've worked with prominentcompanies, organizations.
Author.
You've worked with prominentcompanies, organizations,
athletes all over the world, butwhat's really the most
(04:36):
important thing for people toknow about Caroline Adams Miller
?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
and how you serve the world.
I've never been asked thatquestion, but the first thing
that comes to mind are mychildren, because I'm so proud
of them and I can't call themgoals.
But I have three remarkablechildren who have all achieved
amazing goals and they've alsohad amazing failures which ended
up being so important in theirlater success.
(04:58):
And they've all married their,their people, and I have to say,
as a parent, I'm not sure itgets a whole lot better than
that.
So I'm just going to say that.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I love that.
I always love to start withthat question, caroline, because
I believe in creating meaningbefore content, meaning that we
could go straight into businessand straight into books.
But I believe it's important toget to know really what makes
somebody human.
(05:30):
And what I find to be soamazing is that the vast
majority almost every singleperson that I asked that
question to that's done a lot ofamazing things in this world
and continues to do amazingthings.
Is they go back to their familyin some way, shape or form?
Isn't?
that interesting and it's neatto see that many folks,
(05:57):
regardless of what they'veachieved, what really matters to
them isn't the you didn't saywell, it's really important that
everyone knows I'm an amazingauthor.
You went back to something deepand I can appreciate that and
it's my wish that every timethat question is asked, that you
know listeners can understand.
(06:17):
Maybe it's not all about thethings, but it's about the heart
and what really pushes us there.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
May I say two things about that, because it's such a
moving way to start this podcast, can I say two?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
quick things, please, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So in that first year of positive psychology.
So I was in the first ever inthe world Masters of Applied
Positive Psychology class at theuniversity of Pennsylvania, so
I got to learn from the mostamazing professors.
Um and anyway, this science ofhappiness is fantastic, but what
we were told over and over itboiled down to was, no matter
(06:57):
what angle you looked athappiness from, it all boiled
down to three words other peoplematter, and that is the
foundation of all well-being inlife is your relationships with
other people.
And that reminds me, because wejust had this horrible crash
here in DC of a Black Hawkhelicopter and a commuter plane
(07:18):
and we lost these amazing figureskaters and other men and women
who were on the plane.
But I went to the mostundervisited national park in
the country a few years ago andit's the Flight 93 Memorial in
Shanksville, pennsylvania, andthere is an exhibit in this very
silent national park where allyou hear is people crying and
(07:44):
you're invited to pick up thephones that include the last
messages people left for lovedones.
They knew they had 90 secondsto live, they knew they were
going to die and I just embracedmyself to go listen to them.
Every single message peopleleft was about their love for
(08:04):
their family.
And I get choked up.
But it's just you know to startour conversation this way.
Just you know we're going totalk about goal setting and
getting things done and all therest of it, but really at the
heart of happiness are people,the right people.
And so again and again and again, you see the lesson if you look
(08:26):
for it.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
Other people matter and I satthere and just envisioned for a
second what it would be likepicking up those phones.
And yeah, it's often.
I feel as if it can be oftenfor some people that it's not
(08:48):
until the last moment that werealize or reflect on what's
really the most meaningful thingin life, and I believe hearing
what you said is a reminder andmaybe even a call to action for
people to do some inventory.
What are you really placing themost value on right now?
So it's a beautiful startingpoint and I appreciate you
(09:13):
offering those two contributionsthere and wow, we're already
rolling so with that.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Where do we go from here?
What do you say, say hello.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
One thing we didn't cover before we started well, I
understand from you is what ledyou down this journey of being
so passionate about helpingpeople achieve their goals and
also develop the frameworks thatyou did, but more so around
(09:44):
goal achievement of all thethings that we could do in this
life and the endlesspossibilities.
What led you to land on thisLike for me personally and we
talked a little before the bigreason why you see that goal
board behind me really goes backto my earliest years and from a
very traumatic place and goalsetting for me and discovering
(10:09):
that is my way of ensuring thatthe generational curse of
alcoholism and trauma and abusein my family dies and it's done
and the more I focus on that,the further I get from ever
creating that possibility.
So if you could go into theorigin story of Caroline and
(10:32):
goals and where do we go there?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Gosh.
Wow, this is a deepconversation.
First of all, congratulationson all that you've done to
distance yourself.
I have been sober for 40 years,so I understand that journey as
well.
I guess, if you reverseengineer my life, it really all
started when I overcame bulimia,when I was 22.
So in the early 1980s I justgraduated from Harvard, which
(10:59):
was filled with other peoplewith heating disorders.
I mean, it was truly anepidemic.
I was a swimmer Swimmers werenotorious for this, runners,
gymnasts, whatever and I thoughtI was going to die because
there was no cure, there was nohope, and I thought getting
married would take it away.
(11:20):
And sure enough, I was purgingon my honeymoon in Jamaica and I
just remember looking in themirror, thinking this thing is
going to kill me, I don't evenhave a future.
And I stumbled into a 12-stepmeeting for compulsive eaters in
Baltimore a few months laterand that was where I heard this
sentence that changed my life,and the sentence was my name is
(11:41):
Betsy and I'm recovering frombulimia, one day at a time.
And I remember my head jerkedup.
I had never heard all thosewords in a sentence and I didn't
know people talked about it.
I mean, you got to rememberthis was Karen Carpenter died,
and it was just shame, and thatwas the day I knew I was going
to get better.
So something inside of mekicked in, and so overcoming
(12:04):
bulimia and then writing thefirst autobiography by anyone
who recovered my Name isCaroline is the book.
I realized I could do hardthings and I realized that I
could cultivate grit, and I did.
And so I think that that, allpiled together with Olympic
athletes or Olympic goldmedalists in my family, et
cetera, I just realized that Iam a competitive person.
(12:27):
You can take it to the darkside, which I think I did.
But how do you become your verybest self without developing
stupid grit?
And how do you help otherpeople raise their profile of
who they think they can be?
How do you help them dreambigger?
And that's what I love to domore than anything.
(12:47):
So, discovering goal-settingtheory when I went back to
school at midlife, oh my God, itwas like I don't know.
It was like a match to a torch.
I just I could not believethere was science to goals, and
my whole life changed in 2005.
(13:08):
I honestly couldn't believethere was a science to goal
setting and I thought I knew itand then I found out I knew
nothing.
So that's been the missionsince 2005, but probably earlier
than that, in a different form.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I appreciate how you've converted we'll call it a
trauma into triumph as well.
And then it led you down thisroad and perfect segue, as you
brought up the discovery in 2005, which is what I opened up with
at the start of chapter threethe 800-pound gorilla.
(13:45):
And this is what I've been mostexcited to talk with you about,
because up until this point, upuntil the very recent future of
getting this book, I figured Iknow plenty about goal setting
(14:06):
and share some stats and figuresand love to talk about it.
And then I'm sitting herescratching my head like how the
heck did I not know this?
What is going on?
So what do we get wrong, webeing society, and what do we
(14:29):
fundamentally get wrong aboutgoal setting and its classic
teachings, or the lessons thatwe hear the most, or the
acronyms such as SMART, which wewere talking about before?
starting what's fundamentallywrong with those things.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Oh gosh, I think we get a lot of things wrong.
But, like you, I really thoughtI knew goal setting.
I owned all the books ZigZiglar, brian Tracy, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
I quoted from them.
The Harvard study of 1950,write your goals down.
3% of people write their goalsdown.
Then they, I mean, I reallythought I knew science because
(15:12):
these books had it.
Then I'm, you know, I'm assignedgoal setting theory by Locke
and Latham and I realized whatthere's a science that's stuck
in academia.
And then I went home and lookedat every book not one footnote,
not one reference, all urbanlegends and snake oil.
So I went on a mission to startsharing this.
And what we get wrong is thatwe don't realize there's a
science and it's not our faultbecause I think it has been
(15:33):
stuck in academia.
I've done my best to bring itto the world.
But as a woman, I tell you, theone area where women have made
zero progress in the lasthundred years is in being seen
as agentic.
We are not allowed to beagentic and goal-directed
because we pay quite a penaltyfrom both men and women.
So I'm walking into the mouthof the lion by being a woman
(15:54):
writing about the science ofgoal-setting.
But what we get wrong is there'sgoal-setting theory.
It divides goals into two goalsand if you get two kinds of
goals, if you get it wrong, youknow you're you're off on the
wrong foot right away.
And that's.
There's learning goals thingsyou've never done before.
You have to acquire skills andknowledge.
It's a whole different processfor proceeding.
And then they call itperformance goals.
(16:14):
I call it checklist goals,because those are things you
have done before that fit on thechecklist.
So we get that wrong.
And what we've all fallen forare these acronyms like SMART
goals, which was created by aconsultant in 1981.
He didn't know science and itwas published and it was sticky
and problem is there are 55definitions for it.
(16:35):
Outcome to any goal learning orchecklist is challenging and
specific.
The minute you look at theSMART breakdown, you realize
it's doing you a disservice whenit says attainable or realistic
.
That's not how you're going toget your best outcome.
So that's just one thing thatwe get wrong.
(16:56):
And then there's so many othersthat we can go into.
But first is you got to knowgoal setting theory and I hope
I've made it easy and readablefor people to learn in this book
.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Let's break it down a little bit, because you
described goal setting theory asthe engine for your bridge
framework, which I believe thiswill lead us into, and you
mentioned that the research fromLocke and Latham breaks goal
setting theory down intolearning and performance goals,
(17:27):
and what I really interpretedfrom it as well in the book and
through some additional researchis that it sounds like the
harder the goal or the moredifficult the goal, that's
actually better because it'sgoing to bring the best out of
you.
Am I misinterpreting that atall?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
No, you're right, so you shouldn't be attaining all
your goals.
That shows that maybe youdidn't stretch hard enough, you
weren't creative enough in theways in which you went about
pursuing your goals.
But they did find, over andover hundreds of studies.
This is why it's ranked numberone of 73 management theories,
number one with no replication,crises, no challenges, no
(18:10):
cheating, no made-up data.
I mean that's really roilingthe field of psychology and
sociology is all this made-updata.
They've never had a challenge.
So what's super important isthat you set the goals and that
you break them down, and I'lljust give you a great example of
(18:30):
a learning goal and aperformance goal.
That happened yesterday.
Was it yesterday the Super Bowl?
Okay, so if you are pursuing alearning goal, it's the first
time you've done it.
What I was looking at andthinking about Patrick Mahomes
or any quarterback there's areason why there's training camp
is because when teams gettogether in the spring to start
(18:50):
training together, it's alearning goal.
They haven't played with eachother before.
Maybe it's a new offensivecoordinator.
You know how to play football,you're there, but you're
learning new ways of interactingwith people.
A new playbook, a newquarterback, whatever.
That's a learning goal, aperformance goal.
I was listening to how the NFLgoes about picking the cities
for hosting the Super Bowl andthey said they have a checklist.
(19:14):
So they have a checklist of allthe things you have to do,
starting two years before theSuper Bowl, because it's a
checklist goal.
But you know each city, kind ofyou know New Orleans is
different from Denver orwhatever.
But that is a great example ofwhy some goals are checklist
goals and you can say there'sthe date by which I'll
accomplish it and here's theexcellence I'm striving for.
(19:35):
And then learning goals are.
You know you're learning how todo it and by the time you're
playing the game or whatever,you will have adapted to a
certain level of excellence thatyou can keep pushing yourself
on.
But when you asked me aboutchallenging and specific, I just
want to quickly say this onething the research is very clear
that at the end of every day wescan our days for what we did
(20:00):
that day that were hard, becausethose are the things that
actually give us authenticself-esteem and there's no other
way to get it.
It's by going outside of yourcomfort zone in pursuit of
meaningful goals and doing hardthings that allows us to become
the best version of ourselvesand the world rewards that
behavior.
The world rewards that behavior.
(20:22):
The world does not rewardpeople who set easy goals.
And that is fascinating, andLocke and Latham grappled with
that because they kept findingpeople who were setting low
goals, were happier as they wentalong and they were like why
are people having this sustainedwell-being as they accomplish
(20:42):
these short-term goals, but thelonger-term goals are a little
bit miserable while they'repursuing it?
And then they went bingo.
Because the world rewards hardgoals that you're not always
happy about while you'repursuing them, because you're
acquiring skills and you'refailing at times.
So you develop self-esteem,authentic self-esteem, and the
(21:05):
world rewards that.
And that's why when you watchthe Olympics, there are no
participation trophies.
It's first, second, third, Iand what I see a lot of now, is
you know?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
just 10X, your goals and whatever you think is
challenging.
Multiply that by 10 and nowthat's your goal.
And because even if you don'tget there, you may achieve 5X,
which is still monumental versusmaybe what was easy at 0x or at
baseline.
So are there validity in thosethings or is it a little bit
(21:56):
more intricate or simple, as itrelates to where do we draw a
line between making somethinghard?
Where do we draw a line betweenmaking something hard?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
So I'm not a fan of just saying10x your goals or double what
you did last year.
It has to be based on somethingspecific.
So too often venturecapitalists, for example, or
investors they'll buy a companyand they'll say 5x your profits
by the time we cash out in twoyears or whatever, but it's not
based on any real conversation.
(22:26):
Is there some learning going on?
Do you have to build artificialintelligence into how this
company operates?
We've just had a black swanevent the coronavirus.
How are you going to delivergroceries to people if nobody's
accepting deliveries?
How do you sell a car when youcan't see people?
So to just go, oh, let's 10exit without any kind of
(22:46):
conversations, like is thereanything new here that we have
to learn?
We got to take the time toactually do that.
That's what you really have tohave are nuanced conversations,
and I just finished reading theMercer Global Workplace Report,
which is a lot of fine print.
But one of the things everycorporation, like over 90%, say
(23:06):
is they're going to have to havelearning goal conditions,
because they have to stop andfigure out how is this
artificial intelligence going tomake them more excellent and
efficient?
And they have to stop trainpeople.
There's upskilling going on.
You can't just say 10x what youhad last year.
You got to add a lot of skillsand knowledge to see really what
you can be capable of.
(23:27):
But still make it hard.
Just don't automatically sayit's got to be this number.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Or pieces of the puzzle, rather.
So going to People willdisengage.
Is there any research thatsuggests a percentage breakdown
(23:53):
between learning goals andperformance goals?
Because what I heard islearning goal is something
you're doing for the first time,and then performance goals.
They're not new things, butthey could be those checklist
items, as we're still relativelyfresh into 2025, caroline, is
there an ideal breakdown that30% of your goals should be
(24:15):
first-time learning goals and70% performance, or is there not
really an ideal mix between thetwo?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, I think what Locke and Latham found is that
most of our goals are learninggoals, and learning goals become
performance goals or checklistgoals.
I'll call it checklist for therest of the the rest of our
interview, because you get aperformance out of both kinds of
goals.
So it gets confusing for people.
But the reason why learninggoals are so important is
(24:43):
because when people are engagedin the process of curiosity and
acquiring knowledge and beingopen to the learning and it's
okay to fail, it's okay to takesome time to add this knowledge
they're more engaged at work,and disengagement at work is one
of the biggest problems thatcompanies have because it leads
to a lack of productivity.
So you want to be able toidentify your goals correctly at
(25:06):
the outset, whether you're in acompany or these are your
personal goals.
Because in the process ofgiving yourself the grace to
find a mentor on YouTube, tofind, you know, maybe just
whatever a class on YouTube, amentor out there that you reach
out to you really have to takethe time to figure out what's
this platform I'm building formyself.
(25:27):
So I don't think there's anideal breakdown, but I think
it's far more learning goalsthan people even suspected and
even if let's say I've got agreat story that I always tell
in speeches about one of the topcar salesmen or Dodge Jeep
salesmen in Pennsylvania, andwhen coronavirus hit, the whole
(25:47):
showroom shut down and he didn'tknow how to sell a car because
he had always been a backslapper.
He rode in the cars with peopleand he went home and said to his
kids teach me how to text, getme on Facebook.
I got to figure out a whole newway to sell cars and so he gave
himself time to understandtechnology.
And then you know what's sointeresting when you read the
(26:08):
story about him in the newspaperbecause this is where I found
it he had his best month everafter he gave himself time to
learn these new things, to geton the computer, to text people,
to go on Facebook Instead ofgoing in a car with them.
He would FaceTime them whilethey were driving, and so, yes,
that was a checklist goal forhim, but he had to add some
learning components to it and itbecame a checklist goal for him
(26:30):
again and he's having his bestyear ever and continues to have
best years.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
What's interesting about what you said there is
that he took time, and I believein the world that we live in
now, it's often suggested thatwe shouldn't take time to maybe
slow down, to speed up If we'rethinking about incorporating
(27:07):
this goal setting theory intoour playbook and as this episode
will likely release in secondquarter of 2025.
So if we were to break down theyear into quarters, we'll call
it a new quarter.
Maybe first quarter didn't goso well for people, but folks
are listening now and they'rethinking okay, I want to go
ahead and test some of thisstuff out.
Is there some sort of questioninventory that you go through
(27:33):
Like, okay, what are some, whatare, what's one thing that I
want to do differently this yearthat I didn't do in 2024?
Or how can we really prepourselves to adopt goal setting
theory?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, it's really good question.
So the first thing you want tosay is why am I pursuing this
goal?
What's its meaning in my life?
So the first thing you have tomake sure is it's it's got some
relevance to your values and whoyou want to become and what you
want to be remembered for.
So these, these are reallyimportant goals that we have to
consider every year.
So let's say, you want to quitsmoking and you have tried to
(28:15):
quit smoking two other times andit didn't succeed and you're
wondering well, why didn't I?
That is still a learning goalfor you because you have not
quit successfully yet.
So what you want to do is goback and say what parts of it
did work for me With beingaround a different group of
people.
Did I abstain longer?
Was there a gum that I used?
I mean, what pieces that workedfor me before can I bring back
(28:38):
in?
And then, what's new?
What's out there that I couldtry?
That's different.
So it could be acupuncture, itcould be anything.
But what you do when you have alearning goal is you cast the
net wider for information, youfind more mentors, you find more
sources of knowledge, but youalways ask yourself what's new?
What have I not tried before?
(29:02):
Make it a high goal for you totry a new approach to learning
this, but make it aggressive.
By Friday I will have, forexample, you want to learn how
to salsa dance.
By Friday, I will have gone tothree different studios to look
at the teachers and I want tosee if the classes speak to me.
It's not like, hey, I'll go onthe internet and just check it
(29:23):
out.
By Friday I'll go to threeplaces and I will have an
opinion at the end of Friday.
So you want to make it hard foryourself to you know, acquire
the knowledge and then begin toexperiment.
Will this help me accomplishthat goal?
So that's, that's the firstthing.
If it's a checklist goal, ifit's something you've done
before, go back to yourchecklist.
If you're missing the mark, goback.
(29:44):
Is there something you didbefore that you are skipping now
?
Because we find, like surgeonsbefore, they had checklists
going into surgery, these highlyskilled doctors.
They were sure that theyremembered every step that
needed to be taken in order tosuccessfully remove a
gallbladder, but people werestill dying on the table until
they found.
(30:04):
Checklists matter.
So when you're packing yoursuitcase, when you're doing
surgery, when you're a pilottaking off, make sure you have a
checklist and then again askyourself what's new?
Is there a way to improve yourchecklist?
Check it out with other peopleand then you want to set a hard
date and a hard outcome so thatyou're seeking excellence and I
(30:25):
really believe in my bridgemethod, ours relationships you
really have to have the rightgroup around you, holding you
accountable and cheering for youand holding your feet to the
fire, so it's more than just thelearning and performance.
Once you get that, you go intothis next set of steps you have
to go through in order to reallymake it possible for yourself
(30:47):
to succeed.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Do you ever find that and perhaps have you even
struggled with this yourself attimes?
Being a high performer and usambitious folks, sometimes we
may wrestle with hard not beinghard enough, Like, do you ever
look at something and you knowthat somebody else where you
(31:14):
have a strong sense thatsomebody else would say, holy
smokes, that's insane, Caroline,but to you it's not hard enough
because you're a high performer?
And if so, how have youovercome that?
Discipline is a key componentof this podcast and a key thing
(31:40):
that we preach.
We view discipline as the fuelto help you create the life that
you ultimately desire, anddiscipline being the fuel that
gets your habits and systems incheck so that you can actually
accomplish your goals.
If you're looking to level upin 2025, I am happy to be a part
of that and encourage you tojoin the Unshakable Discipline
(32:02):
Mastermind Group.
This has been my baby for acouple years and we're finally
launching it here in 2025.
The group consists of aself-paced course that teaches
you how to form core habits andmindset that will allow you to
accomplish your goals, a dailyaccountability channel to keep
you on track, motivated and inalignment with our members, and
(32:26):
weekly mastermind sessions whereyou're going to learn from
either myself or a suite ofrenowned guests many who have
been on the podcast that aregoing to share pieces of their
winning playbooks directly withyou.
I've learned that being a partof groups over the years has
helped propel me to so many newlevels in life.
(32:50):
If you want to go fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, then gotogether, and it's my wish that
the Unshakable Crew is a choicethat makes sense for you in 2025
.
We are growing up to 100members this year and have
limited time founding memberpricing for 12 more folks before
(33:14):
we permanently increase pricingto $97 a month.
You can get in now for $67 amonth, locked in for life, and
be a part of the adventure thatwe're creating with our members.
If you're somebody that cravesdiscipline, seeks it or wants it
this year, and you're reallycommitted to making lasting
(33:37):
changes in your life and beingaround others that are committed
to winning and serving theworld and sharing what they
learn with others so that wemake this world a better place,
then join the Unshakeable crew.
Go to unshakabledisciplinecomand you can sign up.
It is also in the show notesUnshakeable shake, as in
(34:00):
milkshake,unshakabledisciplinecom, and
we're excited to have you in2025.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
You know that's such a good question.
So around the corner from me isKatie Ledecky.
She grew up in my neighborhood,right, and so just this adorable
little swimmer I choose to taketo swim practice, um or just
you know she was in the sameswim practices as my kids and I
just watched this ebullientlittle girl set ridiculous goals
(34:31):
, starting at the age of six,seven, eight, nine, 10.
And she had goals that otherpeople would say were completely
unattainable.
Except Katie was made ofsomething different.
Katie had a mindset and a workethic that her coach recognized
and he pushed her to set thosekinds of goals.
So if you know somebody, orsomebody who knows you well and
(34:52):
whose judgment you trust, thinksthat maybe you are
undershooting the mark becauseyou haven't really given
yourself credit for what youreally are made of, then you
might want to go a little bitharder or seek the kind of
advice from a board of directorsthat would help you to do that.
Sometimes I do that, but Ithink it's also important.
There are times when you don'thave to set just the hardest
(35:14):
possible goals and when you lookat the research on resilience
and stress, sometimes whenpeople have had a big failure,
an epic fail, they just have toget back on the horse that threw
them and they just have to geta win, and maybe it's a quick
win, but it's a win.
It's a feeling of mastery.
We all have to have that.
So I think that when you knowpeople are judging other
(35:35):
people's goals, they don'talways understand what's hard
for me may not be hard for you,and it may not be hard enough
because you don't believe inyourself enough and someone else
does.
So mastermind groups can beincredibly helpful in helping
people to dream bigger, gobolder and celebrate.
(35:56):
So I know you're intomastermind groups too, but I do
think everyone should be in oneor two mastermind groups of the
right people who help them toanswer these kinds of questions.
But you have to have a board ofdirectors people who look at
you and you're willing to havethem look at you, which requires
humility, and humility is a keyingredient of grit, and I don't
(36:17):
think most people understandthe link between humility and
grit.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Amen to that and we're going to get into the
bridge framework, but I'll speakon the relationships piece and
board of directors, as youmentioned, as maybe something
that will help at least oneperson.
And one thing I do every year isI obviously write out my goals
and then I type them up and Iwrite a personal letter to
(36:42):
myself and I send that out to myboard of directors or a bunch
of my mentors.
And because I also believe inthe fact that, if one stat that
I love to share is my twofavorite stats in the world, dr
Abigail Matthews did a study onpeople that write their goals
(37:02):
down versus don't write theirgoals down and found that just
by writing your goals down,you're 42% more likely to
achieve them.
Additional studies showed thatwhen you share your goals with a
group of people, your odds ofachieving it increased to
roughly 70%, because now youknow there's a group of folks
(37:23):
that not only are they informed,but you, being a person that
values your word, probably wantsto work a little bit harder now
that somebody's involved andthere's always one mentor of
mine, bill Bill Stephens, that Iknow when I send my goals out
and they're often very loftyhe'll either.
(37:47):
Yep, that's definitely astretch.
Or sometimes he'll come backand say did you think about that
?
Or are we leaving a little biton the table and I can speak to
the benefit of having thosefolks around, because there's
been some where I've increased,because my board of directors
(38:09):
say, hey, you got more in youthan you think.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, that's humble to do that, to send that out.
Let me make a comment onwriting goals down.
So I would love to have yousend me that study, in
particular the Abigail Matthews,because chasing down some of
the research on writing downyour goals is really elusive at
times, because it's usuallywriting down your goals and then
(38:35):
the other piece is specifyingthe when and where you're going
to do that.
So it's not enough to write itdown, you have to actually go
that.
Next step.
You know, if this happens, thenI'll do that the if, then
implementation intentions.
Next step If this happens, thenI'll do that the if-then
implementation intentions.
Also, people get into what'scalled positive fantasizing, and
that's really destructive.
So when you write your goalsdown and don't back it up with
(38:57):
any kind of work oraccountability, what you often
find is people begin to believethey've done more to accomplish
that goal than they've done.
That's Gabriel Ottingen's work,and so it's called mental
contrasting, and so you don'twant to dwell too often in like
visualization boards or you knowall these things that we've
(39:18):
been told.
Imagine yourself on the topstep of the podium.
That's actually destructive,and so you, you, if you do too
much of it.
So you want to imagine yourself.
It's like you write this letterto yourself in the future.
You want to imagine yourself inthat place, that place you want
to be, but not for long.
You want to then turn aroundand go back to the present day
(39:38):
and go.
What are the obstacles in frontof me, what are the evils I'm
about to meet on this road?
And that's what the ancientStoics called premeditatio
malorum premeditate the evilsthat are going to happen as you
walk down the road towards yourdestination.
And so that's what GabrielAdagin this whoop method, she
came up with.
But that's basically what it isWish you know, and then you've
(40:01):
got these obstacles, and thenyou overcome them, and that's
your plan.
You overcome them and that'syour plan.
So that's why I think we got totake a little bit of a grain of
salt.
When you write it down, there isa way to write it down and when
you tell people here's theother piece this is really,
really, really important.
(40:21):
There's research on what'scalled goal shielding, and goal
shielding is when you share yourgoals with the wrong people,
and it has the power to dissuadeyou from pursuing your goals if
you share them with the wrongpeople and if they do not
(40:43):
respond.
With this form of respondingthat's been studied, active,
constructive responding,curiosity and enthusiasm you may
very well have dug the gravefor your goal before you even
start.
So it's not just sharing itwith other people.
It's sharing it with people whoyou know have a track record of
(41:03):
curiosity and enthusiasm aboutyour goals.
They're happy for you.
There's very few words in theworld, in any language, that
mean I'm happy because of yourhappiness.
That's because people don'talways do it.
There's a lot of schadenfreude.
I spent years and years lookingfor the opposite of
schadenfreude because we wereasked in 2005 to find it.
(41:24):
I found it in Australia andit's um fear gun.
It's an untranslatable Yiddishword.
I'm happy because you're happy.
And then there's mudita, inSanskrit Um.
But you know what?
What you really have to becareful of is who are the people
who are privy to your dreamsand goals?
It shouldn't just be anybody,and maybe it shouldn't even be
(41:45):
people in your family, becausemaybe you're shaking up the
family by having these big goalsand people are going wow, how
am I going to look when heachieves that running thing that
he's doing?
So you got to be careful.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
This is fantastic, caroline.
This is absolutely fantastic.
On that last note, is it fairif someone doesn't avoid doing
that and getting the wrongperson on the bus?
Is it a fair question to ask?
Do I believe that this personis genuinely curious and
(42:20):
invested in me?
Challenge that with someadditional inventory that we
should take before we, before weshoot this off to somebody I
know unknowingly, potentiallyunknowingly, dissuading
ourselves from the goal and andkilling any chance that we have
of getting there.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, a couple of things.
One is the research is by awoman named Shelly Gable at the
University of California, santaBarbara, and she talks about
doing an experiment.
And it's like the red button onthe smoke detector Don't just
assume somebody is going to becurious and enthusiastic because
you know they should be.
You know it's your sister, it'syour mother, it's you know it's
somebody who should be happyfor you.
(43:01):
She said push the red button onthe smoke detector with a fake
piece of good news or a bigdream fake and see how they
respond, because if they don'trespond with curiosity and
enthusiasm, they just told youwho they are.
Believe them, believe them.
So goal shielding means shieldyour dreams and goals,
particularly in the nascentstage, in the earliest possible
(43:24):
stage, like a tree that's justbeen planted and it's got the
wire around it to keep it fromblowing out when the big winds
come.
Treat your goals and dreamslike that, don't just
willy-nilly share it with otherpeople without that proof.
And then the second thing Iwant to say is women are really,
really bad at being happy forother women who succeed at their
(43:46):
goals, and that's for all kindsof reasons.
It's called biosocial theory.
There's a lot of reasons whywomen are not happy for other
women.
There's scarcity theory, etcetera.
84% of women admit they'resurrounded by friends who are
enemies, frenemies, and for thatreason they do not take care of
their goals.
(44:07):
And so well, two things happen.
One is, if they share theirgoals and they're surrounded by
frenemies because they wanteveryone to think they're nice,
then it's a good chance thatyour dream will be rained on.
And the second thing is there'sso much research showing that
women who are agentic andgoal-directed are going to piss
(44:27):
both men and women off andthey're going to pay a huge
penalty.
So women in particular have tobe very, very careful about who
knows their dreams and goals andwho's going to celebrate with
them.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Wow, now I'm going to go ask my girlfriend, who all
she's told yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Or ask her how often does she put something on
LinkedIn or Instagram, somethingshe's proud of and not get
likes?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
You'd be surprised how wounding it is, because
women are wired to need otherwomen.
It's called tend and befriend,and what women do so well and so
cruelly is they ghost otherwomen and they shut them out of
the tribe by ignoring them orshaming them.
Because that's what littlegirls learn to do.
While boys learn to fight,little girls learn to fight with
(45:18):
their words and with shamingand ghosting other women.
And it goes on for the rest ofyour life.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I hate to say goes on for the rest of your life.
I hate to say, as I was doingmy prep and listening to other
podcasts that you've been on.
You talk a lot about what thelatest research shows as it
relates to men and women andgoals, and so I'd love, since
we're on that track right now,what are some of the not nuances
(45:50):
, but we'll call it fundamentaltopics or things to consider as
it relates to men and women andgoals, Because I always
envisioned that it was universal, that, hey, everybody should
have goals and they're likelymotivated in the same ways.
But you've showed that that'snot the case and it's important
(46:13):
that we bring this to theforefront, in addition to things
like goal setting theory,because they're not discussed
enough.
So what are some of the keythings that we should understand
here?
Speaker 1 (46:24):
So there's a couple things.
One is we're just starting nowto ask the questions of the
research and parse it in newways.
To say, does that finding holdfor women as well as it does for
men?
One example I gave you beforewe started was Adam Grant's book
Give and Take, which talkedabout being a giver, and if
you're a giver and you givewithout strings, you will reap
(46:45):
all the rewards in terms ofsuccess, because other people
will be at your side.
And then, if you overgive andyou give to takers, you end up
at the bottom.
So that was designated thebusiness book of the year in
2017.
The problem is, the researchdoes not show that women who
give get rewarded.
Women who give are expected togive, and so if they do not give
(47:05):
, if they guard their time, ifthey have boundaries because
they have their own work to getdone, they will pay a social
penalty again.
They will be seen as they'reall kinds of words you know
self-absorbed mean cruel, cold,whatever, but men who have
boundaries, they never pay apenalty for it.
So that's just one thing thathappens when men and women are
(47:26):
onboarding at the same companyand they're um, they are asked
to go to happy hours to meettheir new colleagues, et cetera.
Women who follow through and goto those get to know you.
Events are seen as cold andself-absorbed and abrasive and
whatever.
Um and too ambitious.
And men who go to the happyhours they're seen as well.
That's what men do.
Ambitious and men who go to thehappy hours they're seen as
well, that's what men do.
That's just another example.
(47:49):
So women pay a price, even whenthey're told to go do this.
When men and women are giventhe same tasks at work and women
finish on time and do it well,but men take longer maybe do it
as well, but always take longerwork nights and weekends they're
actually rewarded for thatbehavior.
They're seen as more dedicatedto the company.
So when women finish things ontime, they're penalized as well.
(48:16):
Women don't have role modelsthe way men do.
So we know that self-efficacycomes from reading stories and
hearing stories about womenwho've succeeded at things, and
Wikipedia has acknowledged thatonly 18% of the biographies in
there are of women.
82% are of men.
And that's because there's ahuge problem with men deleting
(48:37):
women's biographies, and evenone woman who got the Nobel
Prize for physics, they deletedher biography the year she won
the Nobel because they said shewasn't noteworthy enough, and
that matters, because you beginto shoot too low in goal setting
if you don't see and hearexamples of success that sound
like you, that look like you,and that just isn't happening
(49:00):
enough.
I told you that there's thisproblem with dude podcasts.
I mean, I've listened tosuccess podcasts for hours at a
time and one day I realized forseven hours all I'd heard were
men talking to other men aboutmen.
You know, ceos, presidents,special forces, special forces,
special forces and there wasn'tone example used that was about
(49:21):
women.
So women end up shooting toolow, shooting too low.
And then there's one more thingI'll just say.
There's so many things to say,but in the workplace, women do
not get feedback that matchestheir efforts.
So in performance reviews,they're told very general things
, whereas men are givenleadership kind of feedback, and
(49:42):
feedback is a huge moderator ingoal setting theory.
You have to get accuratefeedback in order to know if
you're on the right path.
So women have to seek outpeople who will give them real,
accurate feedback or at leastchallenge the feedback they're
getting if it doesn't match whatthey've actually done.
So the deck is very muchstacked against women and Mark
(50:03):
Zuckerberg, when he said theworkplace has to get more
masculine just recently, saidhe's talking about the kinds of
behaviors that are not rewardedin women, that are rewarded in
men.
So the workplace is now tiltedmore against women.
So there's a lot of ways inwhich women's goal setting is
penalized, and it's just tragic.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Is this something that you often bring up with the
companies that you're speakingto or work with, and if you are
consulting with any companies tocombat that, what does that
look like?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
to talk about it, because they see, let's say, one
woman getting onto a board andnever pulling other women along
with her, or there's a mean girlin the office.
There's something calledkicking and climbing.
That's very common inmale-dominated professions law,
medicine, et cetera where, aswomen rise, they don't climb and
lift, they kick and climb.
And so, pointing this out,there is something called
climbing and lifting where womenlook up in a company and they
(51:11):
see other women at the top andit's a female dominated company.
What they see are climbing andlifting.
So you need to educate people,you need to bring it up.
It is painful because there isa myth that the sisterhood
supports all women.
So you have to at least talkabout it, and I have all kinds
(51:32):
of ideas about how to deal withit, but one that I hope will
stick is ampli-ship.
I think that we are missing aterm when it comes to talking
about whether or not we helpother people or women helping
women.
We've got mentorship,sponsorship and allyship, and
(51:55):
they're not muscular enoughbecause they don't determine
whether or not that behavioractually took place with
witnesses.
So I talk about ampli-ship.
I think it's important toamplify the good news and
successes of other women infront of witnesses, because if
you don't, if it's not witnessed, it's too easy to say it
happened when it didn't happen.
And so those are the kinds oftough conversations you have,
(52:17):
but people are forewarned.
They bring me in if they knowI'm going to talk about it,
because I think it's the hiddenhand that holds women back.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I appreciate you being anadvocate and voicing this out
and educating us, because youknow, and again, one thing I
truly, truly appreciate aboutyou, caroline, and your work, is
that this is, this is soprofound and I and I wish that
(52:47):
I'm like, why the heck didn't welearn about this earlier?
And I'm excited for where yourwork takes you, as specifically
as it relates to the opportunitythat we have with women and
goal setting.
Now, one thing that I want tomake sure we don't miss is that
(53:07):
we've danced around the bridgenow and we threw smart out the
window early on and youdeveloped the bridge framework
which we can apply to our goals,with goal setting theory being
the engine, bridge beingbrainstorm, relationships,
investment, decision-making,good grit and excellent.
(53:32):
So how can we apply the bridgemethod?
And let's break that down.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, thank you for circling back to this.
So I do think Locke andLatham's goal setting theory is
just a fundamental, importantpiece of setting any goal.
You start there and then buildfrom there.
What has happened since theypublished goal-setting theory in
1990 and then updated it in2013 with the work on priming is
that there's been a lot ofnewer research on things like.
(54:02):
There's a really powerfulfinding in positive psychology
that happiness precedes success,which is stunning.
When you think about it, youknow success doesn't follow.
Success doesn't come.
Wait a minute.
You don't become happy becauseyou're successful.
It's the opposite, which meansthat when you're studying goal
setting, you have to take a lookat wellbeing and what are the
(54:23):
wellbeing measures that we havefor ourselves.
So we're looking at things likecharacter strengths.
So there's a whole world of newfeedback, including this gender
work, that has come out sincegoal setting theory, and I've
been I was pondering for 15years how do I integrate this
new research and put it on topof goal setting theory?
And finally, um, a man, um, aprofessional colleague of mine
(54:46):
woke up after having a dream,but he saw a bridge in his dream
and it was like my method andI'd been playing with other
acronyms and he called me out.
He's bridge, caroline's bridge.
It's the gap it's from here tothere.
It's like, oh my God, you'rebrilliant.
Okay, so it is what it is isit's a series of prompts.
It's like artificialintelligence.
If you go through promptsaround, brainstorming, what's
new?
If there was a Star Treksolution to this challenge, what
(55:09):
would that look like?
You have to ask yourself out ofthe box questions that I have
in the book.
You have to brainstormeffectively, not just sit in a
room with people who look likeyou and sound like you and all
went to the same school that'sdead on arrival.
So there's brainstorming, andthe brainstorming includes is
this a learning goal or aperformance goal?
Actually, you start right there.
Relationships who needs to bepart of my goal setting pursuit?
(55:32):
Who do I need to keep away fromme?
That's just as important, ifnot more important.
You have to have boundariesaround people who will take your
energy, be Debbie Downers,whatever you want to call them.
But you also have to look aheadand say do I need this person
in this department of my companyin a month or two to be part of
my solution?
If so, I got to tell thatperson now.
(55:53):
So relationships matter.
Investments People don't alwaysthink about how much time do I
have to invest, how much energy,how much money Do I have to get
into therapy in order to beable to face that challenge?
Do I have to invest in that?
Do I need a coach?
If I want to speak publicly, doI have to get a speech coach?
I mean, people don't thinkthrough the investments.
Then the really cool thing wasdecision-making.
(56:15):
I got way into the rabbit holein decision-making science
because most people don't knowtheir decision-making tree and
they haven't thought throughwhen have I made my best
decisions and when have I mademy worst decisions?
And then I started to look atin the book Annie Duke's work on
poker and things like resultingand having quit criteria.
(56:35):
So you have to have adecision-making process.
When are you going to pivot?
When are you going to turnaround?
You're heading up to themountain and the Sherpas say the
whiteout's coming.
When are you just going toabort?
So you got to have all that inplace too.
Good grit Do you have thepassion, the persistence, the
purpose?
Do you have the ability toself-regulate, to have this good
(56:55):
grit?
And then excellence you got toshoot for the excellence.
That's going to help you havethe right kind of self-esteem
and self-confidence.
So if it's too low, if yourexcellence bar is too low,
you're going to end up feelingmediocre and not as purposeful
as you might otherwise.
So you have to set theexcellence and off you go from
there.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
I love the framework, and so if someone were to set a
new learning goal, they wouldget clear on okay, here I'm
going to choose.
Let's say, my learning goal isgoing to be what's something?
I've never competed in atriathlon.
Okay, so I'm going to competein an ironman triathlon, so
(57:41):
that's my, that's my learninggoal, because I've never done
that, I've never competitivelyswam, never competitively cycled
, and and it's and it'simportant because this will be a
new way to challenge my bodyand mind, in which I can then
inspire other people tochallenge their body and minds
(58:03):
and do hard things, and ideallyalso to raise money for families
that have a loved one battlingcancer, since I tie a lot of my
ultra marathons to that.
So that's my learning.
Now do we go into the bridgefrom there?
Is that kind of the progressionpath?
Speaker 1 (58:22):
Yes.
So you get.
You say, yeah, it is a learninggoal.
What's so interesting is you'rea runner, you run a lot of
miles, but so you're not justsaying I'm going to do this
Ironman thing and boy, it's aperformance goal.
I got to get.
I got to finish my first one byOctober because I know how to
run.
Yeah, you know how to run, butyou've never put it all together
in a race.
So the first thing you say isokay, it's a learning goal.
I can't have a specific outcomeby a specific date, but I got
(58:45):
to give myself time, got to givemyself time to learn.
How have other people trainedfor it?
There's lots of books, there'swebsites, there's conferences.
So I'm going to go learn frompeople who look like me, who
have my body type, who have myage, whatever.
And so you figure out how toflatten your learning curve as
fast as possible that way.
And then you always say what'snew?
(59:06):
Is there a new way to do this?
Well, there's augmented reality.
Gosh, maybe I can wear GoogleGlass and I can go in augmented
reality and simulate what it'slike to do the whole thing.
So you always say what's new?
That's part of brainstormingRelationships who will I need.
I may need a coach, I may needsomeone to help me with my
stroke.
I'm going to have to get abicycle.
Well, that's the investmentsBicycle.
(59:26):
So the relationships.
And there's a guy in my book whoswam the English Channel last
year.
We went through his wholerelationships thing his
nutritionist, his acupuncturist,whatever.
Who do I need?
Who do I need to keep away fromme?
Investments yeah, you're goingto need a bike.
You're probably going to need abathing suit.
You're going to need like 10pairs of goggles.
(59:46):
You're going to need the rightkind of shampoo to get the
chlorine out of your hair.
If you train, you might have tojoin a pool, you know.
So you just go through all ofthat really carefully.
Another thing is this guy,dennis, who swam the English
Channel.
One of the investments he hadto make to swim the English
Channel was he had to hire, hehad to pick a slot two years
ahead of time and pay for it twoyears ahead of time.
So sometimes investments inIronman triathlons involve
(01:00:09):
putting a lot of money downright there, okay.
So there's investments, andthen there's decision-making.
Well, when do I want to do thefirst one?
How will I decide when I'mready?
So you go through all of thatprocess.
Does that make?
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
sense so far.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Okay and okay.
So, and how will I know when topivot?
If I have a broken ankle, am Igoing to keep training for it or
am I going to pivot and dosomething else?
You got to have your quitcriteria as part of your
decision-making Grit.
Do I have the right self-talk?
So when I want to quit becausesomething's getting really hard
(01:00:43):
and I want to quit because Ijust want to quit, do I have a
place I can go in my brain likea pain cave that will get me
through this?
I'll bet you have a pain cave.
I'll bet you've got a heck of apain cave.
And then excellence what isexcellence to you?
It might mean just finishing,you know, finishing your first
one.
And then, after you do a bunch,it becomes a checklist goal and
(01:01:05):
that's when you can say, bynext October, I can shoot for
this particular time becauseI've already, you know, done all
the learning.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Right Right.
That's so well illustrated andunderstandable and I appreciate
you breaking it down andproviding that context.
One thing I love about thebrainstorming portion and folks.
This book truly is packed withtons of research, studies,
stories, a lot of supplementalresources and there's 24
(01:01:37):
brainstorming no, 30brainstorming questions.
I'll pick out my favorite oneor unique one.
If an intelligent aliencivilization offered advice on
our goal, what unconventionalwisdom might they provide based
on their unique perspective?
So there's so many differentquestions we can go through in
(01:02:00):
this brainstorming process tohelp us create clarity.
It doesn't need to be this onequestion.
Think a little bit Right, Thinkoutside the box a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yes, yeah, can I give you a story about the Star Trek
question in there, please yeah,can I give you a story about
the Star Trek question in there,please yeah.
So I worked with Nadine Haram,who is the CEO of a company,
proxime, and she was doingDoctors Without Borders.
She's a surgeon, she's inEngland, in London actually, and
she would go do these tripswhere she would fix cleft
(01:02:31):
palates and do all this, youknow, surgery for free in these
third world countries or placeswhere they didn't have access to
surgery, and she would comeback and be on a high for a few
weeks and then she'd go.
My God, I'm barely moving theneedle.
So what if?
And then one day she had watchedStar Trek as a kid.
One day she saw like all theseoperating theaters connected
(01:02:53):
like Star Trek and she sawholograms of surgeons in all
these operating theatersconnected like Star Trek.
And she saw holograms ofsurgeons in all these operating
theaters and damned if shedidn't turn that into a company.
So now, Proxima, doctors canbeam into third world operating
rooms and their hands can hoverover the hands of a surgeon
(01:03:17):
who's doing surgery for thefirst time.
So, from this Star Trek thing,how could you solve this.
If it was Star Trek, it waslike beam me up, scotty.
She beams in surgeons all overthe world and this company is
changing the face of hospitalsnow and surgery.
Because she asked herself thatout of the box question what if
(01:03:38):
it was a Star Trek solution?
I find that so cool.
Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I love the story behind it.
That's amazing.
Caroline.
Do you have anything excitingcoming up or things that you'd
like to share, and how can wekeep up with you and all of the
amazing work that you're doing?
Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Gosh, thank you.
This has been a really movinginterview.
So I first want to thank you.
I am creating a certificate Irealize I can't get to enough
people with books and interviewsso certificate system where
people are going to comevirtually learn this process,
then go teach it in your school,your athletic team, whatever in
a company, so that I've alreadycreated it.
Now I have to film it.
So that's happening.
(01:04:18):
I'm writing a fuller book onwomen supporting women, because
I really do believe that we haveto learn ampli-ship.
So that's coming up and then Ijust, you know, keep doing the
work I'm doing.
I'm just really excited bysharing this knowledge.
And Locke and Latham are stillalive and gosh, those decades of
scholarship.
We all need to salute them.
(01:04:39):
I'd love to see them get theirjust due.
Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Yes, Amen to that.
It's customary on the podcastto end with a rapid fire session
and this is called One Gem, OneStep, One Book.
So imagine that we get to meetface-to-face someday and we're
going to lunch at a cool spot inDC and we're going in an
(01:05:01):
elevator.
We're going up three floors anda new person is going to enter
the elevator on each floor andthey're going up one floor.
They recognize you and each ofthem is going to ask you a
question.
So the amount of time you haveto answer the question is the
amount of time it takes to go upone elevator floor.
All right, so the first person,the first person gets in the
(01:05:23):
elevator.
They recognize you, they'veread, they've read your book,
they've read one of your ninebooks and they they come in and
say, Carolyn, what's one gemthat you have, whether it be a
quote or a mantra that you liveyour life by?
That I can put in my backpocket and live my life by as
well.
Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
You can't keep what you don't give away.
Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
That's what someone told me at a 12-step meeting for
compulsive eaters when I wasgetting better from bulimia, and
she went that's great, but youcan't keep it if you don't give
it away.
You better go give away yourrecovery if you want to keep it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
That's so beautiful, next person gets on.
What's one step that I can taketoday to begin my goal-setting
journey using your methods?
Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
my goal setting journey using your methods.
First thing I would tell peopleto do is make a list of things
they will regret not doing ifthey don't pursue them.
Start pursuing them now.
They're looking back on theirlife.
What are the things they wouldregret not pursuing?
Pick one and then walk throughthe bridge method and goal
setting theory and go after itthis year with the right set of
accountability partners.
Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
The last person gets on, and this might be the most
challenging question what's onebook besides yours that you
recommend reading in 2025 tohelp us reach our goals, improve
our mindsets and our way ofbeing?
Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
I'm going to give you a weird answer.
I read Ron Chernow's biographyof George Washington last year
and it was one of the mostextraordinary books I'd ever
read and I didn't realize thefragility of our democracy until
I read how we almost lost.
I didn't realize how close itwas.
And there's true leadershipexamples in that book, humility,
(01:07:22):
and I just thought everyAmerican should read this book
and every American should go toNormandy and see what happened
at D-Day.
I think we need to exposeourselves to exemplars of awe,
and when we find books thatevoke awe in us, like I'm
reading a Harriet Tubmanbiography right now, that's
where I want to live is in astate of awe.
Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
It's a very unique offering there and one we
haven't had, and I appreciatethat.
Caroline, this has been anabsolutely fantastic discussion.
I've truly enjoyed it, trulyenjoy your work, and if I had
any regrets, it's that I didn'tdiscover it until just recently,
and it's my wish that thisconversation prompts many people
(01:08:08):
to really dig into goal settingtheory and apply the bridge
method, because it is going tohelp them win today.
Thanks so much, you.
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