Dr. Hilary Cauthen, a clinical sports psychologist for Olympians and elite athletes, shares how fear of failure and evaluation often block peak performance—and how to reframe those fears for growth. In this episode, she reveals how shifting from “avoid failure” to “pursue success” unlocks freedom, focus, and motivation. We also explore how high standards and emotional authenticity can coexist in elite sport, and why trauma can serve as a hidden source of strength when properly integrated. Dr. Cauthen's simple "five minute mind" practice proves that mental mastery starts with stillness, not struggle.
3 Key Takeaways:
- Reframing fear unlocks performance breakthroughs.
- Vulnerability and excellence are not opposites.
- Mental fitness is daily maintenance, not a crisis response.
Thank you for tuning in! If you feel led, please subscribe & share the show to others who you believe would benefit from it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
He gave me a book to read and then he also told me at
the end of the day, you'regonna graduate and you're gonna
get on the bus.
You're gonna get on the busthat you know, you're gonna
graduate here and you have todecide did you get on the bus
that made it or did you get onthe what if bus he goes?
Only you can decide what busyou get on, but you have to
decide what bus that's gonna be.
And it then flipped everythingon it.
(00:20):
So much more control of myactions and my behaviors, of
what I wanted to do.
And I was getting in my own waybecause I was blaming everyone
else.
The environment, my coachdidn't like me.
This was happening.
It wasn't good enough that he.
He challenged me and said look,you're going to get out of here
.
Just which bus are you going toget on?
And only you can answer that.
And it's been something I tellall my athletes Um, I, I got
(00:40):
little buses that I give themfor transitional objects and
it's been a really powerful tool.
Do I want to be on a bus thatmade it and I get to define what
making it looks like, or do Iwant to be on a what-if bus?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Welcome to the Wednesday Podcast, a weekly
resource thoughtfully crafted tohelp people build and refine
discipline, accomplish theirgoals, fortify their mindsets
and be of service to somebody inthis world.
My name is Ryan Cass and I amyour host, and it is my mission
and commitment to deliveramazing episodes to you every
week where you'll learn frommyself or a renowned expert in
(01:17):
their field.
We love helping people win inevery aspect of their lives, and
you can help us win by sharingthe show with somebody that you
believe will benefit from it,subscribing and leaving a rating
and review.
We believe that everybody inthis world is meant to do
something great with their livesand we're here to help play a
(01:38):
role in that.
Thank you for tuning in andlet's win today.
Today's guest is someone whosework sits at the intersection of
elite performance, mentalresilience and human potential.
Dr Hilary Cawthon is a licensedclinical sports psychologist
and the founder of Texas OptimalPerformance and Psychological
(02:01):
Services.
She has worked with Olympians,professional athletes and high
performers across the globe.
She helps people strengthentheir minds the same way that
they train their bodies, throughintentional repetition, clarity
of purpose and deepself-awareness.
Dr Cawthon, it's an honor tohave you on the show today.
(02:22):
Welcome aboard.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Thank you so much.
What an intro.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
There's a lot of cool things that we can read about
you and we'll certainly get into.
But before we do that and getinto all the amazing things that
a Google search would yield,what do you believe is the most
important thing for the world toknow about you?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Definitely.
Well, there's a lot One.
I am a mom of four amazing,beautiful little humans.
My daughters are probably thecentral essence of my heart.
You know I have a tattoo on myarm that says my heart is your
heart.
Your heart is my heart, becausethe first sound they ever heard
is my heart.
Um, because the first soundthey ever heard was my heartbeat
and the first time I ever heardof them was their heartbeat.
(03:09):
And so being a mom is probablythe best gift I've ever been
given.
So raising my four daughtersand having the opportunity to
empower them as a female leaderin the space that I am and the
work that I do is a really fun,uh, beautiful thing about me, um
, on top of and the work that Ido is a really fun, beautiful
thing about me On top of, I'm avery large sneakerhead and
always have amazing shoes andtalk about shoes all the time.
(03:30):
So those are the two otherthings that are probably about
me.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
What are you rocking right now?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Oh, my goodness, I'm so glad you asked.
They're the Adidas new shoethat they partnered with a
hidden opponent and they'retheir mental health shoe and
they are amazing.
They have little serotoninmolecules on the Adidas stripes.
They have the mental healthgreen ribbon on the back of the
tag.
So it's my essence to mentalhealth and athletics combination
(03:57):
.
So if you're a big mentalhealth advocate, check out the
Adidas hidden opponent brand.
It's called growing togetherwith the shoes that they have.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Wow, look at that Learned something really cool
today and something that I couldshare with my fellow
sneakerhead friends.
But, going back, what Iappreciate most that you
mentioned is that, in additionto all of the amazing things
that we know you for, that areon the paper, you mentioned that
the most important thing issomething that may not be at the
(04:27):
top of a Google search, butmore so that you have four
amazing, beautiful girls, and italways strikes a special chord
for me to hear from people likeyou that are highly regarded and
have certainly influencedpeople all over the globe.
To come back to that as themost important thing and I
(04:49):
believe that really speaks toyour character, who you are,
your amazing heart, and you'rethe type of person that I love
to create these conversationswith, because it just makes it
that much more meaningful andallows us to connect on a much
deeper level.
So I appreciate how you servethe world and your family.
(05:11):
How would you describe theproblem set that you solve for
the people that you get to workwith and high performing
athletes and folks that havethat have competed literally at
the highest echelon of sport inthe Olympics?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, you know, I always say that I have the
pleasure of working on thiscontinuum of care model right,
and I treat the person withinthe player and at the true
essence of it, whether they're afive year old or an or an
eight-year-old when I get thepleasure of doing some group
work with these little kids, orthey're at the highest level,
28-year-old peak professional toeven a 55-year-old professional
(05:54):
pickleball player that I mightwork with, right.
It all boils down to two maincomponents that my athletes get
stuck on, and it's usually fearof failure or fear of evaluation
.
You know they're at this pointand they're playing good enough
and they're great compared toother people.
But in the high athletic world,high performing world, where
they're at, they're good andthey're trying to find this
breakthrough of how can I begreat?
(06:16):
And oftentimes I say, ok, well,are you looking to how not to
fail?
Are you looking to the fears ofthe evaluation, right?
Is your brain stuck on thisfailure thing and doing
everything not to fail, or areyou actually looking towards
success and what it would taketo be successful and striving
for success?
And so I just try to flip theway they're looking, because
they're spending so much timetrying not to fail and doing all
(06:37):
the things not to fail.
That it's making them feelstuck and pressured and in a
pressure cooker really.
And when we flip it and say, ok, imagine if your what ifs were
not what if this happened orwhat if this happened, but what
if I was successful, what if Icould reach my goals Like the
relief and the excitement andthe joy that comes over their
face, imagining what it wouldfeel like if they reached their
(06:58):
goals, and then switching theway they frame it to what does
it take to be successful and howcan I strive for success, then
that taps into that growthmindset framework that we look
for and the ability to reachyour goals, knowing that failure
is always on the other side ofthe continuum, but not what
they're going for.
And so it's really simple theyjust fear failure or fear
evaluation, and you got them toactually tap into how could they
(07:20):
be successful, and then theproblem can be solved.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Would that be advice that you would suggest to anyone
, regardless of anyone that maypossess a fear of failure or
fear of evaluation?
But fear of failure, I feellike, is the one that we hear
the most, and I certainly hearthe most from friends and a lot
of former athletes and a lot offormer athletes Is it, hey,
(07:46):
present what the other side mayhave to offer, meaning well,
what if it does go well?
Or what would?
What if you are successful?
Is it that simple reframe thatyou would offer to anybody, or
are there other types ofinventory that you would
encourage one to take beforethey choose that as their
(08:09):
reframe?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I mean, it's always important to understand how big
is that fear, right, and where'sthe fear coming from?
I often tell anyone and highperformer or not, right, humans,
we're all performing insomething you know.
Everyone's been scared of thedark at some point in their life
and you know, in order to getthrough the fear of the dark,
you turn on a nightlight or acloset light or hallway light,
some sort of guide, to help youmake it less scary, and then
(08:32):
you're able to make meaning ofthe fear and then you don't need
the nightlight anymore.
This is the same thing for aperformance, right?
Once you name whatever thatfear is, you take the power away
from it, and then you can startusing the night light and
figuring out okay, how can I seethings differently and how can
I be less?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
scared and then imagine a world differently.
That allows me to be successful.
Is fear of failure oftensomething that isn't generated
from sport alone?
Do you find that most peoplethat possess this fear any fear?
In general, I have a sense,based off doing some research
and speaking to people, that itoften is generated from
(09:15):
something back in childhood.
Most of our fears are often ourinner child that is paying us a
visit in some way, shape orform.
Do you find that to ring truefor the most part with athletes,
or is it sport that is creatingthose fears, independently of
what they may have experiencedin early years?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I mean, both can be true, right.
But when we look at sport ingeneral, we hyper focus this
pressure around outcomes andthis need to succeed.
And we look at jobs are basedon wins and losses.
Getting on a team andperformance and maintaining your
contract is about results.
So it's heightened more in thatmicrocosm of sport itself.
(09:58):
It allows that fear to broodeven more.
But in general, us as humans,we're always looking to perform.
We look at the school systemsit's about grades, it's about
accolades, end of the yearawards.
All of our society is based onhow good you're doing and a
reflection of that is on theperformance of what we've deemed
as successful right.
So I think there's a part ofour non-athletes that are still
(10:20):
in this performance-based fearof not being enough.
You know, not doing enough, notfitting in enough, not sales
job, right, you don't hit yourquota, you're fired, right.
So all of the world we functionin is about performing at a
high level.
Those that impact the most iswhen it impacts their
self-esteem and their self-worth, and then we see that as being
more problematic for them,because the anxiety can show up,
(10:43):
the depression can show up, youknow, the dropout rates can get
higher in different areas ofwhat they're working through.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Would you say that the folks that you work with do
they struggle more withreleasing fears or having an off
switch or something else, orperhaps a combination of those
two things and whatever else youmay add to.
Here's what I really find thatwe have to break down so that
(11:13):
they can perform at theirabsolute best as an athlete, as
a professional, as a servant tothe community and whatever else
that may bring them pleasure.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, and it's interesting, the word choice
right, because when I hear youwhat do we have to break down, I
flip it.
I'm like what do I have tobuild up?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
in that athlete.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
What skills do I have to add into their toolbox?
Right, because naturally thehigh performers I work with they
don't realize it, but they'realready coming in with a very
strong skillset of the mentaltools that I utilize.
They just maybe are using themin the wrong way.
Their training methodology isnot working for them anymore
because they wouldn't have gotto a certain level if they
didn't know how to set goals, ifthey didn't have certain work
(11:53):
ethic and determination anddrive and grit.
But something's happening intheir life now that's
interfering from them, allowingthem as successful as they want.
Or, on the flip side, I havesome athletes that come in that
are already successful and theyjust want to continue to be more
successful.
Which is a harder athlete towork with is how do you maintain
the success?
And there's different thingsthat show up, but I'm always
looking at what do we need tobuild to allow you to get to
(12:15):
that next level and remove anyobstacles?
I think to your question isthere fear in some of them
admitting and having aself-awareness to actually feel
emotions?
It's really hard as society ingeneral, but especially as
athletes, to have properemotional regulations.
We don't teach them how toexpress their emotions
appropriately.
We define what emotions areacceptable, especially in high
(12:38):
performance, especially betweenmen and women.
There are certain emotions thatwe say this is societally
acceptable and this is not.
We see people bash them on theInternet if they respond and
behave a certain way.
And so I think that componentof how can they be a human, how
can they emotionally expressthemselves?
They've never been taught toact a certain way, or this is
weak, and so I have to teachthem on how to be emotionally
(12:59):
vulnerable and how to beempathetic and have the
self-awareness to feel thosethings and regulate their
emotions at a level.
And then, on the other side, Ithink we have to look at yeah,
how do they not allow sport tobe their entire identity?
How do they allow that to be alarge component of who they are?
But outside of that, what arethe other areas that they can
(13:19):
excel in that they can turntheir off, switch on and go do?
That's why you look at StephCurry as an example.
He talks about playing golf allthe time.
He plays golf and he's a goodgolfer, but he plays golf
because it's a mindful routinefor him.
That's not basketball, right.
You have people that love tocook and be artists and then it
becomes a job and they're okayif they would ever lose that,
and those are things that I tryto build within them.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It's try to build within them is like who are you
beyond the sport?
Because you'll be way better ifyou're happy in life.
Your sport will be way easier.
On the emotional regulationpiece, or the ability to
experience emotions, is theresomething?
Are there?
Is there a clear distinctionbetween where men and women may
struggle with this and whatemotions that they'll either
invite in or turn away?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, and so it's interesting.
So we're seeing a shift and theopposite, which I love to see.
But society before had thesepro prescribed emotions that men
were strong and in sport you'remasculine and you cannot show
weakness, and weakness would beoverly emotionally expressive
and showing tears and crying andand discussing openly what was
bothering you, right.
(14:32):
So men would not do that.
They would internalize theiremotions, where women would be
more outward, externalprocessors and you know, that's
why we had this like hysteriaright, they were so hysterical
in their drama and we look atold terms of like depression
that existed is women werecrying all the time, expressing
other emotions.
Sports a funny world, though,because it's very masculine and
(14:52):
male dominated, and so women areprescribing to the male norms
and so female athletes are notshowing the emotions in the way
that they normally would expressin societal ways is what we
deem feminine to the point whereyou look at our female athletes
that start trash talking nowand are competitive on the court
.
Especially the WPA is a greatexample about this that they're
(15:13):
talking on the court, they'retrash talking, and people are
like you can't do that.
And these women are like whycan't I?
Like if I were crying, youwould think that was a problem.
And now I'm trash talking whichmen can do.
Think that was a problem.
And now I'm trash talking whichmen can do.
But now you're saying that Ican't do that.
On the flip side, we see thesemen who will cry and express
emotion and at first society hada hard time being like why are
these men crying?
That's weak, they shouldn't cry.
(15:33):
And now we praise men forexpressing such vulnerability
and empathy and emotionalexpression to it.
But we're very harsh criticsabout what we expect our
athletes to demonstrate andthat's partly because we've
romanticized these athletes toact a certain way, be a certain
way.
They're superpowers, they'resuperheroes in certain ways of
what they can do that wedehumanize them.
(15:55):
And I always try to come backin and like humanize sport as
best as possible.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
You got me thinking about to your point there.
First person that came to mindwas Caitlin Clark, and man,
she's getting tossed aroundright now on the court.
You know, in the NBA, where itwas real intense, people are in
(16:30):
your face, there's hard fouls,and then on the flip side, with
men, I certainly see exactlywhat you're saying and that you
know even men are crying afterthey win a championship or the
finish line at a marathon, whereyears ago I could see how that
(16:53):
would happen and people be likeoh, you're being a wuss.
You know what?
That?
What the heck.
Men don't cry and right I findit to be pretty encouraging.
What's your take on it, andalso from your colleagues?
Do you feel like there'sadditional room to grow here, or
(17:16):
any other shifts that y'allwould love to see in this
evolving world of sport?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
would love to see in this, in this world of sport,
evolving world of sport.
Yeah, I think I love it.
I love when any emotion isexpressed, right, because we
have these universal, sixuniversal emotions, and I love
that it's not men can do thisand women can do this, and that
we're highlighting them at sucha high level.
And there will always becriticism, and I think the
conversation is important, right?
Oh, why can this guy cry andthis woman can't?
Or X, y or Z?
(17:45):
Right?
Oh, why can this guy cry andthis woman can't?
Or X, y or Z?
Right, having the dialogue andhaving the athletes follow
through with who they are, theathletes, taking power of their
voice and their actions, isessential and we see a lot of
them advocating now for mentalhealth needs and the mental
performance stuff and utilizingsports psychology and, you know,
going to therapy, and I thinkthat is so beautiful for them to
highlight at the level thatthey're at going to therapy, and
(18:06):
I think that is so beautifulfor them to highlight at the
level that they're at.
When I talk to a lot of theseelite athletes, I always ask
them you know, if you were tohave exposure to mental
performance, to sportspsychology.
When would it be right?
Because the first time theywere exposed is maybe at the pro
level, maybe at the collegelevel, and they're like, oh, I
wish I had it as a kid, at thebare minimum, I wish I had it in
college, right?
So we see that they're saying Iwish I had it because they
didn't utilize it or they didn'thave it, and now they're saying
(18:27):
it would have been so helpful.
The transition that really needsto shift is from coaches and
the coach education and thecoaches creating these
psychologically safe and secureenvironments.
There's such a disconnect withallowing feelings to be present
and having a standard ofexcellence.
(18:47):
Anytime you bring up havingthese players that have feelings
, they think that now we don'thave to have a standard of
excellence and discipline and wemust be soft on them and then
they can perform.
And so they create these such,these harsh environments that
are really toxic for ourathletes.
And I'm saying no, create apsychologically safe environment
, but have the standard ofexcellence.
Have the standard of.
This is what it takes to winand here's the expectations I
(19:10):
have for you and hold true tothose boundaries, but you can
still be empathetic and you canstill create a space that allows
them to emotionally expressthemselves, and we haven't got
there yet, and that's where weneed to grow into.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, when we previously spoke into yeah, when
we previously spoke.
It's interesting.
I feel like there is a shifttaking place in terms of where
rigidity has a place in sportsand it sounds like, based off
what you're saying, it still canand should exist to some extent
(19:43):
, or maybe there's an asteriskwe put on there, but it can't be
the only driving force forperformance.
I think about wrestling, beinga former wrestler, and Penn
State has had a dominant programnow for the last roughly 15
years.
Now for the last roughly 15years.
(20:11):
Wrestling isn't a sport wherethere's much mincing of words,
it's one-on-one, it'sdog-eat-dog and it's scrappy,
it's ruthless.
Penn State has figured out a wayto continue to dominate and
when you look at their wrestlingroom, what's interesting is
their warmups.
They'll play dodgeball, theywill play some sort of game.
(20:32):
They don't have everybodywearing full sweats and hoodies
versus.
If you look at Iowa anotherstoried program uh, still very
much old school.
It feels like rigidity is thedriving force and I'm not sure
if that's the reason why theyhaven't been able to crack the
(20:52):
code much over the last 15 years, but it feels like some of
these programs that are evenallowing their teams to have a
little bit more fun, even ifthat means in warmups it looks
like they're doing better.
And Penn State also has theirathletes talking about their
team psychologists and the rolethat they've been playing.
(21:14):
So I'm curious to know whatexcites you most about where the
sports world is going in thatsense and that more teams are
having psychologists.
Like should coaches havepsychologists as well?
Like what's your ultimate dreamwith this?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
yeah, I think that's the next shift.
Right, we?
We haven't got every program umon board to have enough
psychologists or mentalperformance coaches in place.
Right?
Sometimes it's still one personfor 900 athletes and no one can
do that Right?
So there's still room to growand there's still job creation
that needs to be out there.
I view the mental performanceand sports psychology world in a
(21:55):
growth phase.
How strength and conditioningathletic trainers were, now we
have five strength andconditioning coaches and five
athletic trainers for differentteams, or at least three big
departments, and I eventuallysee this shifting where more
organizations will have fivemiddle performance sports
psychologists on staff to helpall the athletes.
The next shift beyond that,though, has to be for the
(22:17):
coaches and the organizationalwellness side of things Like how
do you educate the keystakeholders and the decision
makers in creating the sameculture that you want your
players on field and on court tohave?
Right, and so there has to bethat, especially for your
coaches, where you know thattheir job relies on winning.
Their contract is based on.
(22:37):
They got a short period of timeto maintain that success, and
if they don't reach that level,we look at a team just lost a
job and he got to the EasternConference Finals, right, and
NBA, and it's like that wasn'tgood enough, right, you know.
So I think that the coachesneed it.
They're taking a lot ofemotional weight on their
shoulders and they're away fromtheir families, and and the time
(22:59):
spent on being a coach rightyou need to have someone who can
talk to and understand you aswell.
So that is, for sure, anevolution that needs to happen.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
I would love to see that more people in the world,
sports or not, make investmentsin.
You know we talk about likeeverybody in life, whether
you're on an actual team, likesports team or whatever, we all
have a team that surrounds us,our family, everybody's got a
(23:29):
doctor, a dentist.
I look forward to the day whereit's more and more common that
people are also saying, yeah,and I've got my mental
performance coach, I've got mytherapist.
I invested in therapy over thelast few months more, I would
(23:49):
say, as a preventativemaintenance and also recognizing
that I felt some wounds that Ithought had closed up were
opening back up from the pastand I didn't want that to take
over and go into therapysomething.
(24:10):
Five years ago I would havesaid the heck with that, that's
weak sauce.
And now part of me is kickingmyself a little bit like man.
I wish I would have done thatsooner.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Well, even myself as a clinical sports psychologist,
like knowing I wish I hadsomeone when I was in high
school, which I had someone whenI was in college.
Like it took me years before Ieven went on my own and it was
actually before I had my firstchild is when I went and I was
like I'm not even practicingwhat I speech.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Like I should be like doing this Cause I'm telling
everyone they should do it, butI wasn't, cause I was are the
biggest misconceptions that youfind or hear, as it relates to
mental performance, training andhow people view or talk about
(24:59):
the work that you do in thefield that you're in and that
you wish people would understandlike hey, it's actually not
that and this is what it is.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, you know it's it's interesting with mental
performance or for me, who'sduly trained, right as a
clinical sports psychologist, Ithink the misdemeanor is people
only come to us when there's aproblem and it's very
solution-based and solutionoriented.
And in my private practiceworld I've been able to flip
that script essentially and Ihave the privilege of seeing a
lot of young adolescent you know, 13, 14 year old kids and my
(25:30):
whole goal is I want to be apart of your team in the good
and the bad and you come and goas you need to with me and I'm
here to support you.
And there's different flows inyour life and when I had someone
who's 14 and now he's 23 andhe's come back and foreseeing me
, it's like this is a beautifulrelationship.
Now you've bought into whatthat dynamic looks like and it's
not just when things are bad,like you can come see me when
(25:51):
things are good.
We just don't have to meetweekly, Right.
But you know, there's thisessence of I'm fixed now and I
think that's that's been astruggle for for myself and
other colleagues, Like I've lostcontracts or I haven't had
contracts renewed and I've beentrying to figure out like why
did I not get my contractrenewed Right.
Like this team was successful,they won championships, Like
they've hit all the accolades.
(26:11):
If we were trying to measurewhat success looks like, and
they don't renew a contract andit's like, well, did the team
not have money?
Did they stop believing inmental performance?
Did they think they got itfigured out now Cause they were
winning?
Those parts are hard to figureout.
Like you put yourself out of ajob because you make people feel
better and you make people winand then it's like, oh okay, so
(26:32):
getting people to understandlike this is someone you want on
your team.
Like at a consistent level, ata preventative level, not just
an intervention, fix it level.
You need someone who'sconstantly there to work through
things, because you can'tpredict when life happens and in
organizations, somehowsomething's gonna happen for
somebody on that organization,whether it's a family member
(26:53):
passes, the birth of a child, aninjury, or how do I handle all
this pressure from school?
Like things happen, life's notpredictable, and so if you have
someone who's stable in thatenvironment, who's constantly
there, who can help you navigatethese things, that's a lot
better than oh, and now I needto call that person.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, and what I heard you say there really is
that this work is never trulydone and it's it's like, for
instance, when we get in shape,we don't stop working out.
We continue to work out tomaintain that shape and maintain
the benefits of working out,which are far beyond physical,
and we keep doing it because wemay want to continue to
experience just the good feelingit brings to you.
(27:36):
And that's certainly, I feel,like an opportunity that we have
in society.
Is that, hey, this isn't justto quote, fix whatever's wrong
right now.
It's also good service to yourbody, mind and soul that you
maintain having this person orthese group of people on your
(28:00):
team.
And you mentioned there thatit's especially important
because we don't know when lifewill happen to us and a perfect
segue into some of the otherwork that you've done as an
author and your book.
Hello Trauma, our InvisibleTeammate.
We've all had, or my sense isthat just about everybody in
(28:24):
this world has something thathas taken place, something
significant that has taken placein their life that they could
have never predicted, and it maydrive what they do today.
It may also hold them back fromdoing the things that they
dream of doing, and that couldbe simply because of their
relationship with trauma.
The book helps us to find thegood and how our trauma can
(28:53):
serve us.
Talk about the driving forcefor the book and also how you
get people to experience thegood side of whatever trauma
they've experienced and what itcan bring them.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, ever since I started going through this, I
went through my own kind ofdifferent traumatic events as a
youth athlete to differentthings that shaped me in college
and when I was studying sportspsychology, I really just was
fascinated with the unspokenthings that were happening the
dark side of sport, and I waslike why are we having these
conversations behind closeddoors and we're not talking
(29:34):
about them publicly, we're notputting a name to them out?
Like why aren't we doinganything about this?
I really struggled with that.
Like why isn't anyone sayingthe things that aren't good
about sport?
And I love sport in my heart.
I still compete, my kidscompete, like I have such a
passion for it.
It's what I built my careeraround, but part of that is I
(29:56):
want it to be a place that'ssafe and good and for anybody
right.
I want it accessible to allpeople and functions at
different stages of life, andwhat I found through my own
experience and the athletes Iwork with that sport actually is
really toxic.
And so I had an opportunity todo a TEDx at Texas State
University and it was the mostchallenging thing in my career
at the time and I was so proudof it.
Until then I wrote my book,which was then the most proud
(30:17):
thing I had, but it was the TEDxwas on the toxic culture of
sport around athletes' mentalhealth, and it was the first
time in my career I was about 10years into my career now now
where I was really naming what Itruly was passionate about and
what I was focusing on, whichwas athletes' mental health and
how this was not okay and wecan't create these environments
that are causing such harm tothese athletes and we need to do
(30:39):
, we need to be better, right,we need to do something about it
.
And then, four years past that,I had the opportunity.
I started working in pro spacesand my career was kind of
taking off at different levels,at the highest level you could
be at, and I was stillwitnessing these dysfunctional
organizations and things thatwere not okay.
And I had an opportunity whereI was like, okay, well, I need
(30:59):
to speak to this and I need toput words to paper and speak to
things that people can't makemeaning of and they weren't able
to describe, and I wanted tocreate a book that would be
healing for those that werenever able to make sense in the
meaning behind what they wentthrough and to take ownership
and have a voice that could bethe voice for everyone and to
help people understand.
(31:20):
So I created it.
It's a twofold book.
It's really hard to explainbecause the first half of the
book is very emotionallyexperiential of helping people
understand what trauma is andthe stages that someone would go
through and making apsychological reason behind it.
Right you emotionally evokesyou into the process of what a
victim of trauma is and thenhelps you psychologically
understand it.
(31:41):
And then there's this call toaction, using sport as a
microcosm of society, sayingthis is how it reinforces it to
exist if we don't get it better.
And it's kind of a call toaction of like anyone can read
this book if they're not anathlete.
I just use sport as an example.
But any organization, anyleader, any human can now
empathetically understand whattrauma is.
(32:02):
They can heal independently,they can show up for people
differently and they can shapetheir work environments and
their cultures differently.
That's my hope.
It's a very aspirational hope,but it's been a mission that
I've been on and I finally waslike you know what I need to
actually put words to the action, to the things that I speak
about.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
If someone listening is having difficulty putting a
positive spin on their trauma orcoming to terms with it, how
would you guide them throughthat?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, first I would just sit and listen and really I
think that that's the beautifulthing is like people just need
to be listened to, they need tobe seen and heard and I don't
need to minimize your experience.
Or I don't need to minimizeyour experience or I don't even
have to make meaning myself foryour experience.
I want you to make meaning ofyour own experience for yourself
.
But the trauma doesn't go away.
It's psychologically inside you, right, and that's why I say
(32:59):
it's our invisible teammate.
Like.
It can be the best teammate foryou and you can use it as a
powerful way to put into actionand work through things and make
change.
But it also can be a verydetrimental, toxic teammate to
you where it makes you isolateand be depressed and hyper
vigilant.
And no one wants to experiencethese mental illness.
You know subsidiary diagnosesyou get from trauma.
(33:21):
They don't want to haveflashbacks and panic attacks.
It's not something that they'relike, hey, I can't wait for
this to happen, like, but it's.
It's the process of not knowinghow to work through that and
not being taught how to managethat.
And so this is saying hey, it'snot going in there, you have to
learn to address it and itdoesn't make you less thing
because you went throughsomething and it doesn't make
(33:41):
you amazing because you wentthrough something either.
It's just a part of you and youget to define the next chapter
of your story and I think that'sthe essence of hope that I put
in there.
And I bounce around this idea ofdoes healing actually exist?
Is it?
Is it a process?
You know?
And and I've really workedthrough people always ask me are
(34:01):
you writing another book?
And I and I had this idea ofyou know, hello, healing our
biggest fan right, and I thoughtthat's gonna be my next book.
But as I was working throughsome and as someone who's gone
through traumatic things, andvery publicly, I realized I
don't know if we're those thathave been through something
(34:23):
traumatic would ever want to saythat they're healed, because
admitting or owning that you'rehealed feels like it takes away
from what you went through.
And those of us that have gonethrough something don't ever
want our story to be forgotten.
We don't ever want the pain tobe forgotten to others.
We don't want to feel the painanymore, but we don't want
(34:43):
something that was so impactfulto us be taken away if we say
we're healed.
And so it's this reallychallenging thing of maybe we're
just always healing, but we'renever healed.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
You've got my mind running now.
That's so.
That's so unique.
I've never I think about.
I think about the trauma thatI've experienced and how I can
tell you right now with a smileon my face, and I'll stand on
stages with a smile on my facesaying it's the best gift I've
(35:14):
ever received in my life,because it is it's packaged a
little differently and I thinkabout am I healed from that or
am I healing, or what's adifferent way that I would that
we can suggest or offer topeople beyond, beyond a healing
(35:39):
journey?
I don't know.
It makes me think like what, ifsomeone does want to argue that
no, I am healed from it?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, and, and I and I could say yeah, like when I
think, when I compare this toinjury, because it's an
emotional injury that you exist.
Maybe we are healed from theinjury and the trauma itself,
but did you heal well, right?
So I think about an ACL injuryand did you do the proper rehab
and take the time?
And now you have a great newknee and you can be faster and
(36:07):
you can run faster, but maybeyou had Tommy John and you
rushed it back and you can neverthrow a baseball again at the
same level, right?
Or you didn't take care of yourscar and your scar shows.
So I think that the injuryitself we can close up, but the
aftermath of that may cause usto still have a limp or to still
have pain or to still show up,and I think that's what trauma
(36:30):
does.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It still emotionally shows up for us if we don't take
the proper steps to recover themental barriers that may be
holding them back and when theydiscover one, let's say it's
(36:52):
that I'm always.
I know, one that I struggledwith in the past with,
especially with, my mom, is Iwould get reactive anytime I
thought that she didn't believeI was capable or felt like she
didn't trust me.
Like, hey, it's cold out, Didyou get your jacket and I'd find
myself snapping.
(37:13):
And it's this conditionedresponse that I had formed, that
hey, this person doesn't trustme or doesn't believe in me.
Now I'm going to defend myself.
How can people be awake to whatit is that may be holding them
back and work through thosemental barriers or conditioned
(37:34):
responses that they want torewire once they become aware of
?
Oh crap, like I'm doing thisthing and it's got to stop.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, I mean, oftentimes people only show up
to explore that work when aproblem exists right, maybe a
relationship is failing orthey're not reaching their goals
or they're on the brink ofsomething traumatic, and so then
they're like no, I got to gofix it Right.
However, the work doesn't stopthere and I think those that are
more curious and actually likeview it differently.
(38:06):
Like how could I be better, howcan I be vulnerable enough to
understand my weaknesses or myblind spots and ask the right
questions, not with judgment,but with curiosity.
And that takes a lot of growth,because we're all wired to be
defensive, right?
It's hard to hear feedbackSometimes, it's hard to not feel
like we're good enough andworking through things, and so I
(38:27):
think it takes a lot of timeand patience and grace within
yourself to choose to do thiswork, to choose to say, hey, I'm
curious about this because Iwant it to be better, and I want
to be better in certain domains.
And I think when you canidentify why you're curious and
want to answer those questions,then you'll be able to work
through things and find theanswers you want to have.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Is there a particular exercise or set of questions,
or perhaps a mentor, that was sotransformative to you along
your journey that you keep goingback to the lessons or the
(39:06):
experience and and what it gaveyou and it continues to serve
you to this day.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, I can think about one specifically and I use
it in my work a lot.
So it was actually the men'strack and field coach at the
university of New Hampshire, um,and he was actually the
director of the whole trackfield program, but he was never
my direct coach, um, his namewas coach B and I was actually
the director of the whole trackfield program, but he was never
my direct coach.
His name was Coach B and I wasreally struggling in undergrad
as a track athlete.
I had such high desires andpassions and you know, everyone
comes in to college and they'rethe best athlete from where they
(39:39):
were right and everyone's thenumber one or two person and so
I was used to being the best andnow I'm not the best and I feel
like I'm getting ignored by mycoach and half my teammates
probably have eating disordersand I'm struggling with body
image and it's just liketraumatic for me.
I'm like I'm not at home and Iwasn't reaching my goals and
then I got hurt and I was justlike this is a disaster.
And he was so wonderful torecognize that I had such a
(40:01):
passion and desire, but I neededsomeone to care about me.
I needed someone to see me as ahuman and we would have coffee
every Tuesday at this placecalled the Dairy Bar.
It's like this little liketruck stop, like across from our
athletic department.
We'd walk over there, we'd havecoffee, we'd come back to his
office and he was the type ofcoach who would like study GRE
(40:22):
words with me and quiz me oncertain things and get to know
me as life.
Like when my dog died, he wasthe first person I ran to and I
was like my dad had to put mydog down, like he was a human
and saw me as a human.
But he also challenged me andhe gave me the best advice I'll
never forget.
It was my sophomore year.
Now I'm studying sportspsychology Like you think I'm
like in it.
But he sat down with me and hegave me a book to read.
(40:43):
And then he also told me at theend of the day, you're going to
graduate and you're going toget on the bus.
You're going to get on the bus.
That that you know you're goingto graduate here and you have
to decide.
Did you get on the bus thatmade it, or did you get on the
what if bus he goes.
Only you can decide what busyou get on, but you have to
decide what bus that's going tobe.
And it then flipped everythingon it that I had so much more
control of my actions and mybehaviors, of what I wanted to
(41:06):
do, and I was getting in my ownway because I was blaming
everyone else, the environment.
My coach didn't like me.
This was happening.
I wasn't good enough that hechallenged me and said look,
you're going to get out of here.
Just which bus are you going toget on?
And only you can answer that.
And it's been something I tellall my athletes.
I got little buses that I givethem for transitional objects,
and it's been a really powerfultool.
(41:27):
Do I want to be on a bus thatmade it and I get to define what
making it looks like or do Iwant to be on a what if bus?
And so since then, I nowchallenge my athletes.
Now, every day, when you lookin the mirror and you're
brushing your teeth, can you askyourself did I do enough today?
Can I be proud of what I didtoday?
And you know, only you can lookyourself in the eye and to know
if you've done enough, and so Iconstantly come back to that
(41:49):
and I'm so grateful and happy tosay I had to get on the bus
that made it and got my goalsthat I wanted to out of college.
I was very happy with that, butit was a hard road to get there
, for sure.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Amen.
So it's now the athletes whoyou work with.
You can ask them which bus areyou hopping on?
That's powerful.
I'm going to share that with mymastermind group tomorrow.
Which bus are you getting on?
And tell me if I'm saying thiswrong, repeating it wrong.
You got on the you made it bus,or the what if bus?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, at the end of the day, you're getting on a bus
.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
You're going to the destination.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Are you on the bus that made it or are you on the
what if?
Bus?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
I love that.
That sounds like a very simpleand powerful mindset shift,
which leads me into the mindshift masterminds.
Talk through what you'recreating with that, Dr Cawthon,
and your vision with yourupcoming MindShift Masterminds.
(42:49):
What can people learn?
What do you wish that they walkaway with and what brings you
the most joy with that?
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah.
So I wanted to create a spacethat was for professional
leaders to go into, that wasmore intimate in nature so
they're smaller nature, 35 to 50people with the intention that
you're getting leadership,professional development through
other leaders and building highnetworks at the same time.
And so there's panel experts atany event that we do, but
(43:23):
there's also integrated holisticwellbeing and care, and so I'm
putting on one that's a women'sevent and empower her event,
which I'm really excited.
So all the panelists are goingto be female leaders, female
entrepreneurs in differentspaces, but within that we'll
have like a mindfulnessmeditation to start this
intentionality.
So I'm teaching these leadershow to take care of themselves
while learning how to take careof other people.
(43:44):
And so there's veryintentionality in the space that
we're doing, beyond the panelsand the shares that you're doing
.
They're really innovative andfun and hopefully will be
sustainable networks for otherpeople to then be able to
connect, because in thisentrepreneurial space, a lot of
these founders and executivesfeel like they're often alone
and isolated, and so I wanted tobe very intentional about
(44:06):
creating a group where peoplecould share stories and connect
and then build that beyond justthe mastermind event.
So I'll have a women's eventonly.
Stay tuned on my website forother events that show up,
because there'll be, you know,multiple different leadership to
professional development spacesin these masterminds.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
What's the best way for people to keep up with you
and support you and eventuallyjoin one of these MindChef
masterminds?
What's the best way for peopleto keep up with you and support
you and eventually join one ofthese Mind Chef masterminds?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, so I'm very active on Instagram, dr C
Mindsets, my handle, also onLinkedIn, or our direct website,
which is wwwtxoppscom, soeverything will be kind of
highlighted in all those areas.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Dr Cawthon, you know this from our trial run.
We'll call that the lastconversation we had, that the
closing tradition on thispodcast is a rapid fire session.
One gem, one step, one book.
And imagine we're going to grabbreakfast or lunch at a cool
spot and we're going up threeelevator floors.
On each floor a new person'sgoing to enter the elevator.
(45:07):
They recognize you and theyhave a question for you, and the
amount of time you have toanswer it is the amount of time
it takes to go up one elevatorfloor.
So with that first person getsin, they've read your book,
perhaps they even attended oneof the MindShift masterminds.
Dr Cothin, what's one gem thatyou have, whether it be a quote
(45:28):
or a mantra that you live yourlife by, that I can put in my
back pocket to serve me well inthe future.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, my motto is be happy, healthy and full of love.
So can you ask yourself at theend of every day did you do
something that made you happy,are you living a healthy
lifestyle and did you share lovetoday?
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Hearing that makes me smile from ear to ear.
Next person gets on Dr Cotham.
What's one step that we cantake today to bolster our mental
performance and wellbeing?
Speaker 1 (46:04):
I would say the five minute mind is my game changer,
so can you sit and seekstillness for five minutes every
day.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
You know, I just released a podcast episode today
about the power of stillnessand that being a key enabler for
self-mastery.
Love that practice Last one.
Love that practice last one.
Dr cothen, what's one book inaddition to yours that you
(46:31):
recommend people read in 2025 toimprove their mental game?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
power of moments.
Um, I can't think of the author, but the book is so essential
because it talks about theintentionality of creating
moments and how impactful thatcan be for people's mental and
emotional well-being.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Beautiful, dr Cothen.
This was an amazingconversation.
Love that we got to connectagain and very appreciative of
the insights that you sharedtoday from everything.
Everything from encouragingpeople to experience their
(47:09):
emotions, not be afraid toexperience who they really are
at the heart and not allow thatto stop them to encouraging
people that mental performanceand having people on your team
isn't just something that we doto feel better in a given moment
(47:32):
or get over something.
It's something that isimportant to achieve our
greatest level of performanceand it's an amazing maintenance
activity.
In addition to the mentalworkout, to everything that you
have coming up with, your mindshift masterminds.
Love to see the continuedimpact that you are creating in
(47:57):
this world and it's my, it's mywish that people follow along
your journey, take their mentalperformance seriously, so that
they can win today.
Thank you so much.
He gave me a book to read and then he also told me at
the end of the day, you'regonna graduate and you're gonna
get on the bus.
You're gonna get on the busthat you know, you're gonna
graduate here and you have todecide did you get on the bus
that made it or did you get onthe what if bus he goes?
Only you can decide what busyou get on, but you have to
decide what bus that's gonna be.
And it then flipped everythingon it.
(00:20):
So much more control of myactions and my behaviors, of
what I wanted to do.
And I was getting in my own waybecause I was blaming everyone
else.
The environment, my coachdidn't like me.
This was happening.
It wasn't good enough that he.
He challenged me and said look,you're going to get out of here
.
Just which bus are you going toget on?
And only you can answer that.
And it's been something I tellall my athletes Um, I, I got
(00:40):
little buses that I give themfor transitional objects and
it's been a really powerful tool.
Do I want to be on a bus thatmade it and I get to define what
making it looks like, or do Iwant to be on a what-if bus?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Welcome to the Wednesday Podcast, a weekly
resource thoughtfully crafted tohelp people build and refine
discipline, accomplish theirgoals, fortify their mindsets
and be of service to somebody inthis world.
My name is Ryan Cass and I amyour host, and it is my mission
and commitment to deliveramazing episodes to you every
week where you'll learn frommyself or a renowned expert in
(01:17):
their field.
We love helping people win inevery aspect of their lives, and
you can help us win by sharingthe show with somebody that you
believe will benefit from it,subscribing and leaving a rating
and review.
We believe that everybody inthis world is meant to do
something great with their livesand we're here to help play a
(01:38):
role in that.
Thank you for tuning in andlet's win today.
Today's guest is someone whosework sits at the intersection of
elite performance, mentalresilience and human potential.
Dr Hilary Cawthon is a licensedclinical sports psychologist
and the founder of Texas OptimalPerformance and Psychological
(02:01):
Services.
She has worked with Olympians,professional athletes and high
performers across the globe.
She helps people strengthentheir minds the same way that
they train their bodies, throughintentional repetition, clarity
of purpose and deepself-awareness.
Dr Cawthon, it's an honor tohave you on the show today.
(02:22):
Welcome aboard.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Thank you so much.
What an intro.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
There's a lot of cool things that we can read about
you and we'll certainly get into.
But before we do that and getinto all the amazing things that
a Google search would yield,what do you believe is the most
important thing for the world toknow about you?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Definitely.
Well, there's a lot One.
I am a mom of four amazing,beautiful little humans.
My daughters are probably thecentral essence of my heart.
You know I have a tattoo on myarm that says my heart is your
heart.
Your heart is my heart, becausethe first sound they ever heard
is my heart.
Um, because the first soundthey ever heard was my heartbeat
and the first time I ever heardof them was their heartbeat.
(03:09):
And so being a mom is probablythe best gift I've ever been
given.
So raising my four daughtersand having the opportunity to
empower them as a female leaderin the space that I am and the
work that I do is a really fun,uh, beautiful thing about me, um
, on top of and the work that Ido is a really fun, beautiful
thing about me On top of, I'm avery large sneakerhead and
always have amazing shoes andtalk about shoes all the time.
(03:30):
So those are the two otherthings that are probably about
me.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
What are you rocking right now?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Oh, my goodness, I'm so glad you asked.
They're the Adidas new shoethat they partnered with a
hidden opponent and they'retheir mental health shoe and
they are amazing.
They have little serotoninmolecules on the Adidas stripes.
They have the mental healthgreen ribbon on the back of the
tag.
So it's my essence to mentalhealth and athletics combination
(03:57):
.
So if you're a big mentalhealth advocate, check out the
Adidas hidden opponent brand.
It's called growing togetherwith the shoes that they have.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Wow, look at that Learned something really cool
today and something that I couldshare with my fellow
sneakerhead friends.
But, going back, what Iappreciate most that you
mentioned is that, in additionto all of the amazing things
that we know you for, that areon the paper, you mentioned that
the most important thing issomething that may not be at the
(04:27):
top of a Google search, butmore so that you have four
amazing, beautiful girls, and italways strikes a special chord
for me to hear from people likeyou that are highly regarded and
have certainly influencedpeople all over the globe.
To come back to that as themost important thing and I
(04:49):
believe that really speaks toyour character, who you are,
your amazing heart, and you'rethe type of person that I love
to create these conversationswith, because it just makes it
that much more meaningful andallows us to connect on a much
deeper level.
So I appreciate how you servethe world and your family.
(05:11):
How would you describe theproblem set that you solve for
the people that you get to workwith and high performing
athletes and folks that havethat have competed literally at
the highest echelon of sport inthe Olympics?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, you know, I always say that I have the
pleasure of working on thiscontinuum of care model right,
and I treat the person withinthe player and at the true
essence of it, whether they're afive year old or an or an
eight-year-old when I get thepleasure of doing some group
work with these little kids, orthey're at the highest level,
28-year-old peak professional toeven a 55-year-old professional
(05:54):
pickleball player that I mightwork with, right.
It all boils down to two maincomponents that my athletes get
stuck on, and it's usually fearof failure or fear of evaluation
.
You know they're at this pointand they're playing good enough
and they're great compared toother people.
But in the high athletic world,high performing world, where
they're at, they're good andthey're trying to find this
breakthrough of how can I begreat?
(06:16):
And oftentimes I say, ok, well,are you looking to how not to
fail?
Are you looking to the fears ofthe evaluation, right?
Is your brain stuck on thisfailure thing and doing
everything not to fail, or areyou actually looking towards
success and what it would taketo be successful and striving
for success?
And so I just try to flip theway they're looking, because
they're spending so much timetrying not to fail and doing all
(06:37):
the things not to fail.
That it's making them feelstuck and pressured and in a
pressure cooker really.
And when we flip it and say, ok, imagine if your what ifs were
not what if this happened orwhat if this happened, but what
if I was successful, what if Icould reach my goals Like the
relief and the excitement andthe joy that comes over their
face, imagining what it wouldfeel like if they reached their
(06:58):
goals, and then switching theway they frame it to what does
it take to be successful and howcan I strive for success, then
that taps into that growthmindset framework that we look
for and the ability to reachyour goals, knowing that failure
is always on the other side ofthe continuum, but not what
they're going for.
And so it's really simple theyjust fear failure or fear
evaluation, and you got them toactually tap into how could they
(07:20):
be successful, and then theproblem can be solved.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Would that be advice that you would suggest to anyone
, regardless of anyone that maypossess a fear of failure or
fear of evaluation?
But fear of failure, I feellike, is the one that we hear
the most, and I certainly hearthe most from friends and a lot
of former athletes and a lot offormer athletes Is it, hey,
(07:46):
present what the other side mayhave to offer, meaning well,
what if it does go well?
Or what would?
What if you are successful?
Is it that simple reframe thatyou would offer to anybody, or
are there other types ofinventory that you would
encourage one to take beforethey choose that as their
(08:09):
reframe?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I mean, it's always important to understand how big
is that fear, right, and where'sthe fear coming from?
I often tell anyone and highperformer or not, right, humans,
we're all performing insomething you know.
Everyone's been scared of thedark at some point in their life
and you know, in order to getthrough the fear of the dark,
you turn on a nightlight or acloset light or hallway light,
some sort of guide, to help youmake it less scary, and then
(08:32):
you're able to make meaning ofthe fear and then you don't need
the nightlight anymore.
This is the same thing for aperformance, right?
Once you name whatever thatfear is, you take the power away
from it, and then you can startusing the night light and
figuring out okay, how can I seethings differently and how can
I be less?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
scared and then imagine a world differently.
That allows me to be successful.
Is fear of failure oftensomething that isn't generated
from sport alone?
Do you find that most peoplethat possess this fear any fear?
In general, I have a sense,based off doing some research
and speaking to people, that itoften is generated from
(09:15):
something back in childhood.
Most of our fears are often ourinner child that is paying us a
visit in some way, shape orform.
Do you find that to ring truefor the most part with athletes,
or is it sport that is creatingthose fears, independently of
what they may have experiencedin early years?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I mean, both can be true, right.
But when we look at sport ingeneral, we hyper focus this
pressure around outcomes andthis need to succeed.
And we look at jobs are basedon wins and losses.
Getting on a team andperformance and maintaining your
contract is about results.
So it's heightened more in thatmicrocosm of sport itself.
(09:58):
It allows that fear to broodeven more.
But in general, us as humans,we're always looking to perform.
We look at the school systemsit's about grades, it's about
accolades, end of the yearawards.
All of our society is based onhow good you're doing and a
reflection of that is on theperformance of what we've deemed
as successful right.
So I think there's a part ofour non-athletes that are still
(10:20):
in this performance-based fearof not being enough.
You know, not doing enough, notfitting in enough, not sales
job, right, you don't hit yourquota, you're fired, right.
So all of the world we functionin is about performing at a
high level.
Those that impact the most iswhen it impacts their
self-esteem and their self-worth, and then we see that as being
more problematic for them,because the anxiety can show up,
(10:43):
the depression can show up, youknow, the dropout rates can get
higher in different areas ofwhat they're working through.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Would you say that the folks that you work with do
they struggle more withreleasing fears or having an off
switch or something else, orperhaps a combination of those
two things and whatever else youmay add to.
Here's what I really find thatwe have to break down so that
(11:13):
they can perform at theirabsolute best as an athlete, as
a professional, as a servant tothe community and whatever else
that may bring them pleasure.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, and it's interesting, the word choice
right, because when I hear youwhat do we have to break down, I
flip it.
I'm like what do I have tobuild up?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
in that athlete.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
What skills do I have to add into their toolbox?
Right, because naturally thehigh performers I work with they
don't realize it, but they'realready coming in with a very
strong skillset of the mentaltools that I utilize.
They just maybe are using themin the wrong way.
Their training methodology isnot working for them anymore
because they wouldn't have gotto a certain level if they
didn't know how to set goals, ifthey didn't have certain work
(11:53):
ethic and determination anddrive and grit.
But something's happening intheir life now that's
interfering from them, allowingthem as successful as they want.
Or, on the flip side, I havesome athletes that come in that
are already successful and theyjust want to continue to be more
successful.
Which is a harder athlete towork with is how do you maintain
the success?
And there's different thingsthat show up, but I'm always
looking at what do we need tobuild to allow you to get to
(12:15):
that next level and remove anyobstacles?
I think to your question isthere fear in some of them
admitting and having aself-awareness to actually feel
emotions?
It's really hard as society ingeneral, but especially as
athletes, to have properemotional regulations.
We don't teach them how toexpress their emotions
appropriately.
We define what emotions areacceptable, especially in high
(12:38):
performance, especially betweenmen and women.
There are certain emotions thatwe say this is societally
acceptable and this is not.
We see people bash them on theInternet if they respond and
behave a certain way.
And so I think that componentof how can they be a human, how
can they emotionally expressthemselves?
They've never been taught toact a certain way, or this is
weak, and so I have to teachthem on how to be emotionally
(12:59):
vulnerable and how to beempathetic and have the
self-awareness to feel thosethings and regulate their
emotions at a level.
And then, on the other side, Ithink we have to look at yeah,
how do they not allow sport tobe their entire identity?
How do they allow that to be alarge component of who they are?
But outside of that, what arethe other areas that they can
(13:19):
excel in that they can turntheir off, switch on and go do?
That's why you look at StephCurry as an example.
He talks about playing golf allthe time.
He plays golf and he's a goodgolfer, but he plays golf
because it's a mindful routinefor him.
That's not basketball, right.
You have people that love tocook and be artists and then it
becomes a job and they're okayif they would ever lose that,
and those are things that I tryto build within them.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It's try to build within them is like who are you
beyond the sport?
Because you'll be way better ifyou're happy in life.
Your sport will be way easier.
On the emotional regulationpiece, or the ability to
experience emotions, is theresomething?
Are there?
Is there a clear distinctionbetween where men and women may
struggle with this and whatemotions that they'll either
invite in or turn away?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, and so it's interesting.
So we're seeing a shift and theopposite, which I love to see.
But society before had thesepro prescribed emotions that men
were strong and in sport you'remasculine and you cannot show
weakness, and weakness would beoverly emotionally expressive
and showing tears and crying andand discussing openly what was
bothering you, right.
(14:32):
So men would not do that.
They would internalize theiremotions, where women would be
more outward, externalprocessors and you know, that's
why we had this like hysteriaright, they were so hysterical
in their drama and we look atold terms of like depression
that existed is women werecrying all the time, expressing
other emotions.
Sports a funny world, though,because it's very masculine and
(14:52):
male dominated, and so women areprescribing to the male norms
and so female athletes are notshowing the emotions in the way
that they normally would expressin societal ways is what we
deem feminine to the point whereyou look at our female athletes
that start trash talking nowand are competitive on the court
.
Especially the WPA is a greatexample about this that they're
(15:13):
talking on the court, they'retrash talking, and people are
like you can't do that.
And these women are like whycan't I?
Like if I were crying, youwould think that was a problem.
And now I'm trash talking whichmen can do.
Think that was a problem.
And now I'm trash talking whichmen can do.
But now you're saying that Ican't do that.
On the flip side, we see thesemen who will cry and express
emotion and at first society hada hard time being like why are
these men crying?
That's weak, they shouldn't cry.
(15:33):
And now we praise men forexpressing such vulnerability
and empathy and emotionalexpression to it.
But we're very harsh criticsabout what we expect our
athletes to demonstrate andthat's partly because we've
romanticized these athletes toact a certain way, be a certain
way.
They're superpowers, they'resuperheroes in certain ways of
what they can do that wedehumanize them.
(15:55):
And I always try to come backin and like humanize sport as
best as possible.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
You got me thinking about to your point there.
First person that came to mindwas Caitlin Clark, and man,
she's getting tossed aroundright now on the court.
You know, in the NBA, where itwas real intense, people are in
(16:30):
your face, there's hard fouls,and then on the flip side, with
men, I certainly see exactlywhat you're saying and that you
know even men are crying afterthey win a championship or the
finish line at a marathon, whereyears ago I could see how that
(16:53):
would happen and people be likeoh, you're being a wuss.
You know what?
That?
What the heck.
Men don't cry and right I findit to be pretty encouraging.
What's your take on it, andalso from your colleagues?
Do you feel like there'sadditional room to grow here, or
(17:16):
any other shifts that y'allwould love to see in this
evolving world of sport?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
would love to see in this, in this world of sport,
evolving world of sport.
Yeah, I think I love it.
I love when any emotion isexpressed, right, because we
have these universal, sixuniversal emotions, and I love
that it's not men can do thisand women can do this, and that
we're highlighting them at sucha high level.
And there will always becriticism, and I think the
conversation is important, right?
Oh, why can this guy cry andthis woman can't?
Or X, y or Z?
(17:45):
Right?
Oh, why can this guy cry andthis woman can't?
Or X, y or Z?
Right, having the dialogue andhaving the athletes follow
through with who they are, theathletes, taking power of their
voice and their actions, isessential and we see a lot of
them advocating now for mentalhealth needs and the mental
performance stuff and utilizingsports psychology and, you know,
going to therapy, and I thinkthat is so beautiful for them to
highlight at the level thatthey're at going to therapy, and
(18:06):
I think that is so beautifulfor them to highlight at the
level that they're at.
When I talk to a lot of theseelite athletes, I always ask
them you know, if you were tohave exposure to mental
performance, to sportspsychology.
When would it be right?
Because the first time theywere exposed is maybe at the pro
level, maybe at the collegelevel, and they're like, oh, I
wish I had it as a kid, at thebare minimum, I wish I had it in
college, right?
So we see that they're saying Iwish I had it because they
didn't utilize it or they didn'thave it, and now they're saying
(18:27):
it would have been so helpful.
The transition that really needsto shift is from coaches and
the coach education and thecoaches creating these
psychologically safe and secureenvironments.
There's such a disconnect withallowing feelings to be present
and having a standard ofexcellence.
(18:47):
Anytime you bring up havingthese players that have feelings
, they think that now we don'thave to have a standard of
excellence and discipline and wemust be soft on them and then
they can perform.
And so they create these such,these harsh environments that
are really toxic for ourathletes.
And I'm saying no, create apsychologically safe environment
, but have the standard ofexcellence.
Have the standard of.
This is what it takes to winand here's the expectations I
(19:10):
have for you and hold true tothose boundaries, but you can
still be empathetic and you canstill create a space that allows
them to emotionally expressthemselves, and we haven't got
there yet, and that's where weneed to grow into.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, when we previously spoke into yeah, when
we previously spoke.
It's interesting.
I feel like there is a shifttaking place in terms of where
rigidity has a place in sportsand it sounds like, based off
what you're saying, it still canand should exist to some extent
(19:43):
, or maybe there's an asteriskwe put on there, but it can't be
the only driving force forperformance.
I think about wrestling, beinga former wrestler, and Penn
State has had a dominant programnow for the last roughly 15
years.
Now for the last roughly 15years.
(20:11):
Wrestling isn't a sport wherethere's much mincing of words,
it's one-on-one, it'sdog-eat-dog and it's scrappy,
it's ruthless.
Penn State has figured out a wayto continue to dominate and
when you look at their wrestlingroom, what's interesting is
their warmups.
They'll play dodgeball, theywill play some sort of game.
(20:32):
They don't have everybodywearing full sweats and hoodies
versus.
If you look at Iowa anotherstoried program uh, still very
much old school.
It feels like rigidity is thedriving force and I'm not sure
if that's the reason why theyhaven't been able to crack the
(20:52):
code much over the last 15 years, but it feels like some of
these programs that are evenallowing their teams to have a
little bit more fun, even ifthat means in warmups it looks
like they're doing better.
And Penn State also has theirathletes talking about their
team psychologists and the rolethat they've been playing.
(21:14):
So I'm curious to know whatexcites you most about where the
sports world is going in thatsense and that more teams are
having psychologists.
Like should coaches havepsychologists as well?
Like what's your ultimate dreamwith this?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
yeah, I think that's the next shift.
Right, we?
We haven't got every program umon board to have enough
psychologists or mentalperformance coaches in place.
Right?
Sometimes it's still one personfor 900 athletes and no one can
do that Right?
So there's still room to growand there's still job creation
that needs to be out there.
I view the mental performanceand sports psychology world in a
(21:55):
growth phase.
How strength and conditioningathletic trainers were, now we
have five strength andconditioning coaches and five
athletic trainers for differentteams, or at least three big
departments, and I eventuallysee this shifting where more
organizations will have fivemiddle performance sports
psychologists on staff to helpall the athletes.
The next shift beyond that,though, has to be for the
(22:17):
coaches and the organizationalwellness side of things Like how
do you educate the keystakeholders and the decision
makers in creating the sameculture that you want your
players on field and on court tohave?
Right, and so there has to bethat, especially for your
coaches, where you know thattheir job relies on winning.
Their contract is based on.
(22:37):
They got a short period of timeto maintain that success, and
if they don't reach that level,we look at a team just lost a
job and he got to the EasternConference Finals, right, and
NBA, and it's like that wasn'tgood enough, right, you know.
So I think that the coachesneed it.
They're taking a lot ofemotional weight on their
shoulders and they're away fromtheir families, and and the time
(22:59):
spent on being a coach rightyou need to have someone who can
talk to and understand you aswell.
So that is, for sure, anevolution that needs to happen.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
I would love to see that more people in the world,
sports or not, make investmentsin.
You know we talk about likeeverybody in life, whether
you're on an actual team, likesports team or whatever, we all
have a team that surrounds us,our family, everybody's got a
(23:29):
doctor, a dentist.
I look forward to the day whereit's more and more common that
people are also saying, yeah,and I've got my mental
performance coach, I've got mytherapist.
I invested in therapy over thelast few months more, I would
(23:49):
say, as a preventativemaintenance and also recognizing
that I felt some wounds that Ithought had closed up were
opening back up from the pastand I didn't want that to take
over and go into therapysomething.
(24:10):
Five years ago I would havesaid the heck with that, that's
weak sauce.
And now part of me is kickingmyself a little bit like man.
I wish I would have done thatsooner.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Well, even myself as a clinical sports psychologist,
like knowing I wish I hadsomeone when I was in high
school, which I had someone whenI was in college.
Like it took me years before Ieven went on my own and it was
actually before I had my firstchild is when I went and I was
like I'm not even practicingwhat I speech.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Like I should be like doing this Cause I'm telling
everyone they should do it, butI wasn't, cause I was are the
biggest misconceptions that youfind or hear, as it relates to
mental performance, training andhow people view or talk about
(24:59):
the work that you do in thefield that you're in and that
you wish people would understandlike hey, it's actually not
that and this is what it is.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, you know it's it's interesting with mental
performance or for me, who'sduly trained, right as a
clinical sports psychologist, Ithink the misdemeanor is people
only come to us when there's aproblem and it's very
solution-based and solutionoriented.
And in my private practiceworld I've been able to flip
that script essentially and Ihave the privilege of seeing a
lot of young adolescent you know, 13, 14 year old kids and my
(25:30):
whole goal is I want to be apart of your team in the good
and the bad and you come and goas you need to with me and I'm
here to support you.
And there's different flows inyour life and when I had someone
who's 14 and now he's 23 andhe's come back and foreseeing me
, it's like this is a beautifulrelationship.
Now you've bought into whatthat dynamic looks like and it's
not just when things are bad,like you can come see me when
(25:51):
things are good.
We just don't have to meetweekly, Right.
But you know, there's thisessence of I'm fixed now and I
think that's that's been astruggle for for myself and
other colleagues, Like I've lostcontracts or I haven't had
contracts renewed and I've beentrying to figure out like why
did I not get my contractrenewed Right.
Like this team was successful,they won championships, Like
they've hit all the accolades.
(26:11):
If we were trying to measurewhat success looks like, and
they don't renew a contract andit's like, well, did the team
not have money?
Did they stop believing inmental performance?
Did they think they got itfigured out now Cause they were
winning?
Those parts are hard to figureout.
Like you put yourself out of ajob because you make people feel
better and you make people winand then it's like, oh okay, so
(26:32):
getting people to understandlike this is someone you want on
your team.
Like at a consistent level, ata preventative level, not just
an intervention, fix it level.
You need someone who'sconstantly there to work through
things, because you can'tpredict when life happens and in
organizations, somehowsomething's gonna happen for
somebody on that organization,whether it's a family member
(26:53):
passes, the birth of a child, aninjury, or how do I handle all
this pressure from school?
Like things happen, life's notpredictable, and so if you have
someone who's stable in thatenvironment, who's constantly
there, who can help you navigatethese things, that's a lot
better than oh, and now I needto call that person.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, and what I heard you say there really is
that this work is never trulydone and it's it's like, for
instance, when we get in shape,we don't stop working out.
We continue to work out tomaintain that shape and maintain
the benefits of working out,which are far beyond physical,
and we keep doing it because wemay want to continue to
experience just the good feelingit brings to you.
(27:36):
And that's certainly, I feel,like an opportunity that we have
in society.
Is that, hey, this isn't justto quote, fix whatever's wrong
right now.
It's also good service to yourbody, mind and soul that you
maintain having this person orthese group of people on your
(28:00):
team.
And you mentioned there thatit's especially important
because we don't know when lifewill happen to us and a perfect
segue into some of the otherwork that you've done as an
author and your book.
Hello Trauma, our InvisibleTeammate.
We've all had, or my sense isthat just about everybody in
(28:24):
this world has something thathas taken place, something
significant that has taken placein their life that they could
have never predicted, and it maydrive what they do today.
It may also hold them back fromdoing the things that they
dream of doing, and that couldbe simply because of their
relationship with trauma.
The book helps us to find thegood and how our trauma can
(28:53):
serve us.
Talk about the driving forcefor the book and also how you
get people to experience thegood side of whatever trauma
they've experienced and what itcan bring them.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, ever since I started going through this, I
went through my own kind ofdifferent traumatic events as a
youth athlete to differentthings that shaped me in college
and when I was studying sportspsychology, I really just was
fascinated with the unspokenthings that were happening the
dark side of sport, and I waslike why are we having these
conversations behind closeddoors and we're not talking
(29:34):
about them publicly, we're notputting a name to them out?
Like why aren't we doinganything about this?
I really struggled with that.
Like why isn't anyone sayingthe things that aren't good
about sport?
And I love sport in my heart.
I still compete, my kidscompete, like I have such a
passion for it.
It's what I built my careeraround, but part of that is I
(29:56):
want it to be a place that'ssafe and good and for anybody
right.
I want it accessible to allpeople and functions at
different stages of life, andwhat I found through my own
experience and the athletes Iwork with that sport actually is
really toxic.
And so I had an opportunity todo a TEDx at Texas State
University and it was the mostchallenging thing in my career
at the time and I was so proudof it.
Until then I wrote my book,which was then the most proud
(30:17):
thing I had, but it was the TEDxwas on the toxic culture of
sport around athletes' mentalhealth, and it was the first
time in my career I was about 10years into my career now now
where I was really naming what Itruly was passionate about and
what I was focusing on, whichwas athletes' mental health and
how this was not okay and wecan't create these environments
that are causing such harm tothese athletes and we need to do
(30:39):
, we need to be better, right,we need to do something about it
.
And then, four years past that,I had the opportunity.
I started working in pro spacesand my career was kind of
taking off at different levels,at the highest level you could
be at, and I was stillwitnessing these dysfunctional
organizations and things thatwere not okay.
And I had an opportunity whereI was like, okay, well, I need
(30:59):
to speak to this and I need toput words to paper and speak to
things that people can't makemeaning of and they weren't able
to describe, and I wanted tocreate a book that would be
healing for those that werenever able to make sense in the
meaning behind what they wentthrough and to take ownership
and have a voice that could bethe voice for everyone and to
help people understand.
(31:20):
So I created it.
It's a twofold book.
It's really hard to explainbecause the first half of the
book is very emotionallyexperiential of helping people
understand what trauma is andthe stages that someone would go
through and making apsychological reason behind it.
Right you emotionally evokesyou into the process of what a
victim of trauma is and thenhelps you psychologically
understand it.
(31:41):
And then there's this call toaction, using sport as a
microcosm of society, sayingthis is how it reinforces it to
exist if we don't get it better.
And it's kind of a call toaction of like anyone can read
this book if they're not anathlete.
I just use sport as an example.
But any organization, anyleader, any human can now
empathetically understand whattrauma is.
(32:02):
They can heal independently,they can show up for people
differently and they can shapetheir work environments and
their cultures differently.
That's my hope.
It's a very aspirational hope,but it's been a mission that
I've been on and I finally waslike you know what I need to
actually put words to the action, to the things that I speak
about.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
If someone listening is having difficulty putting a
positive spin on their trauma orcoming to terms with it, how
would you guide them throughthat?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, first I would just sit and listen and really I
think that that's the beautifulthing is like people just need
to be listened to, they need tobe seen and heard and I don't
need to minimize your experience.
Or I don't need to minimizeyour experience or I don't even
have to make meaning myself foryour experience.
I want you to make meaning ofyour own experience for yourself
.
But the trauma doesn't go away.
It's psychologically inside you, right, and that's why I say
(32:59):
it's our invisible teammate.
Like.
It can be the best teammate foryou and you can use it as a
powerful way to put into actionand work through things and make
change.
But it also can be a verydetrimental, toxic teammate to
you where it makes you isolateand be depressed and hyper
vigilant.
And no one wants to experiencethese mental illness.
You know subsidiary diagnosesyou get from trauma.
(33:21):
They don't want to haveflashbacks and panic attacks.
It's not something that they'relike, hey, I can't wait for
this to happen, like, but it's.
It's the process of not knowinghow to work through that and
not being taught how to managethat.
And so this is saying hey, it'snot going in there, you have to
learn to address it and itdoesn't make you less thing
because you went throughsomething and it doesn't make
(33:41):
you amazing because you wentthrough something either.
It's just a part of you and youget to define the next chapter
of your story and I think that'sthe essence of hope that I put
in there.
And I bounce around this idea ofdoes healing actually exist?
Is it?
Is it a process?
You know?
And and I've really workedthrough people always ask me are
(34:01):
you writing another book?
And I and I had this idea ofyou know, hello, healing our
biggest fan right, and I thoughtthat's gonna be my next book.
But as I was working throughsome and as someone who's gone
through traumatic things, andvery publicly, I realized I
don't know if we're those thathave been through something
(34:23):
traumatic would ever want to saythat they're healed, because
admitting or owning that you'rehealed feels like it takes away
from what you went through.
And those of us that have gonethrough something don't ever
want our story to be forgotten.
We don't ever want the pain tobe forgotten to others.
We don't want to feel the painanymore, but we don't want
(34:43):
something that was so impactfulto us be taken away if we say
we're healed.
And so it's this reallychallenging thing of maybe we're
just always healing, but we'renever healed.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
You've got my mind running now.
That's so.
That's so unique.
I've never I think about.
I think about the trauma thatI've experienced and how I can
tell you right now with a smileon my face, and I'll stand on
stages with a smile on my facesaying it's the best gift I've
(35:14):
ever received in my life,because it is it's packaged a
little differently and I thinkabout am I healed from that or
am I healing, or what's adifferent way that I would that
we can suggest or offer topeople beyond, beyond a healing
(35:39):
journey?
I don't know.
It makes me think like what, ifsomeone does want to argue that
no, I am healed from it?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, and, and I and I could say yeah, like when I
think, when I compare this toinjury, because it's an
emotional injury that you exist.
Maybe we are healed from theinjury and the trauma itself,
but did you heal well, right?
So I think about an ACL injuryand did you do the proper rehab
and take the time?
And now you have a great newknee and you can be faster and
(36:07):
you can run faster, but maybeyou had Tommy John and you
rushed it back and you can neverthrow a baseball again at the
same level, right?
Or you didn't take care of yourscar and your scar shows.
So I think that the injuryitself we can close up, but the
aftermath of that may cause usto still have a limp or to still
have pain or to still show up,and I think that's what trauma
(36:30):
does.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It still emotionally shows up for us if we don't take
the proper steps to recover themental barriers that may be
holding them back and when theydiscover one, let's say it's
(36:52):
that I'm always.
I know, one that I struggledwith in the past with,
especially with, my mom, is Iwould get reactive anytime I
thought that she didn't believeI was capable or felt like she
didn't trust me.
Like, hey, it's cold out, Didyou get your jacket and I'd find
myself snapping.
(37:13):
And it's this conditionedresponse that I had formed, that
hey, this person doesn't trustme or doesn't believe in me.
Now I'm going to defend myself.
How can people be awake to whatit is that may be holding them
back and work through thosemental barriers or conditioned
(37:34):
responses that they want torewire once they become aware of
?
Oh crap, like I'm doing thisthing and it's got to stop.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, I mean, oftentimes people only show up
to explore that work when aproblem exists right, maybe a
relationship is failing orthey're not reaching their goals
or they're on the brink ofsomething traumatic, and so then
they're like no, I got to gofix it Right.
However, the work doesn't stopthere and I think those that are
more curious and actually likeview it differently.
(38:06):
Like how could I be better, howcan I be vulnerable enough to
understand my weaknesses or myblind spots and ask the right
questions, not with judgment,but with curiosity.
And that takes a lot of growth,because we're all wired to be
defensive, right?
It's hard to hear feedbackSometimes, it's hard to not feel
like we're good enough andworking through things, and so I
(38:27):
think it takes a lot of timeand patience and grace within
yourself to choose to do thiswork, to choose to say, hey, I'm
curious about this because Iwant it to be better, and I want
to be better in certain domains.
And I think when you canidentify why you're curious and
want to answer those questions,then you'll be able to work
through things and find theanswers you want to have.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Is there a particular exercise or set of questions,
or perhaps a mentor, that was sotransformative to you along
your journey that you keep goingback to the lessons or the
(39:06):
experience and and what it gaveyou and it continues to serve
you to this day.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, I can think about one specifically and I use
it in my work a lot.
So it was actually the men'strack and field coach at the
university of New Hampshire, um,and he was actually the
director of the whole trackfield program, but he was never
my direct coach, um, his namewas coach B and I was actually
the director of the whole trackfield program, but he was never
my direct coach.
His name was Coach B and I wasreally struggling in undergrad
as a track athlete.
I had such high desires andpassions and you know, everyone
comes in to college and they'rethe best athlete from where they
(39:39):
were right and everyone's thenumber one or two person and so
I was used to being the best andnow I'm not the best and I feel
like I'm getting ignored by mycoach and half my teammates
probably have eating disordersand I'm struggling with body
image and it's just liketraumatic for me.
I'm like I'm not at home and Iwasn't reaching my goals and
then I got hurt and I was justlike this is a disaster.
And he was so wonderful torecognize that I had such a
(40:01):
passion and desire, but I neededsomeone to care about me.
I needed someone to see me as ahuman and we would have coffee
every Tuesday at this placecalled the Dairy Bar.
It's like this little liketruck stop, like across from our
athletic department.
We'd walk over there, we'd havecoffee, we'd come back to his
office and he was the type ofcoach who would like study GRE
(40:22):
words with me and quiz me oncertain things and get to know
me as life.
Like when my dog died, he wasthe first person I ran to and I
was like my dad had to put mydog down, like he was a human
and saw me as a human.
But he also challenged me andhe gave me the best advice I'll
never forget.
It was my sophomore year.
Now I'm studying sportspsychology Like you think I'm
like in it.
But he sat down with me and hegave me a book to read.
(40:43):
And then he also told me at theend of the day, you're going to
graduate and you're going toget on the bus.
You're going to get on the bus.
That that you know you're goingto graduate here and you have
to decide.
Did you get on the bus thatmade it, or did you get on the
what if bus he goes.
Only you can decide what busyou get on, but you have to
decide what bus that's going tobe.
And it then flipped everythingon it that I had so much more
control of my actions and mybehaviors, of what I wanted to
(41:06):
do, and I was getting in my ownway because I was blaming
everyone else, the environment.
My coach didn't like me.
This was happening.
I wasn't good enough that hechallenged me and said look,
you're going to get out of here.
Just which bus are you going toget on?
And only you can answer that.
And it's been something I tellall my athletes.
I got little buses that I givethem for transitional objects,
and it's been a really powerfultool.
(41:27):
Do I want to be on a bus thatmade it and I get to define what
making it looks like or do Iwant to be on a what if bus?
And so since then, I nowchallenge my athletes.
Now, every day, when you lookin the mirror and you're
brushing your teeth, can you askyourself did I do enough today?
Can I be proud of what I didtoday?
And you know, only you can lookyourself in the eye and to know
if you've done enough, and so Iconstantly come back to that
(41:49):
and I'm so grateful and happy tosay I had to get on the bus
that made it and got my goalsthat I wanted to out of college.
I was very happy with that, butit was a hard road to get there
, for sure.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Amen.
So it's now the athletes whoyou work with.
You can ask them which bus areyou hopping on?
That's powerful.
I'm going to share that with mymastermind group tomorrow.
Which bus are you getting on?
And tell me if I'm saying thiswrong, repeating it wrong.
You got on the you made it bus,or the what if bus?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, at the end of the day, you're getting on a bus
.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
You're going to the destination.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Are you on the bus that made it or are you on the
what if?
Bus?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
I love that.
That sounds like a very simpleand powerful mindset shift,
which leads me into the mindshift masterminds.
Talk through what you'recreating with that, Dr Cawthon,
and your vision with yourupcoming MindShift Masterminds.
(42:49):
What can people learn?
What do you wish that they walkaway with and what brings you
the most joy with that?
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah.
So I wanted to create a spacethat was for professional
leaders to go into, that wasmore intimate in nature so
they're smaller nature, 35 to 50people with the intention that
you're getting leadership,professional development through
other leaders and building highnetworks at the same time.
And so there's panel experts atany event that we do, but
(43:23):
there's also integrated holisticwellbeing and care, and so I'm
putting on one that's a women'sevent and empower her event,
which I'm really excited.
So all the panelists are goingto be female leaders, female
entrepreneurs in differentspaces, but within that we'll
have like a mindfulnessmeditation to start this
intentionality.
So I'm teaching these leadershow to take care of themselves
while learning how to take careof other people.
(43:44):
And so there's veryintentionality in the space that
we're doing, beyond the panelsand the shares that you're doing
.
They're really innovative andfun and hopefully will be
sustainable networks for otherpeople to then be able to
connect, because in thisentrepreneurial space, a lot of
these founders and executivesfeel like they're often alone
and isolated, and so I wanted tobe very intentional about
(44:06):
creating a group where peoplecould share stories and connect
and then build that beyond justthe mastermind event.
So I'll have a women's eventonly.
Stay tuned on my website forother events that show up,
because there'll be, you know,multiple different leadership to
professional development spacesin these masterminds.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
What's the best way for people to keep up with you
and support you and eventuallyjoin one of these MindChef
masterminds?
What's the best way for peopleto keep up with you and support
you and eventually join one ofthese Mind Chef masterminds?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, so I'm very active on Instagram, dr C
Mindsets, my handle, also onLinkedIn, or our direct website,
which is wwwtxoppscom, soeverything will be kind of
highlighted in all those areas.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Dr Cawthon, you know this from our trial run.
We'll call that the lastconversation we had, that the
closing tradition on thispodcast is a rapid fire session.
One gem, one step, one book.
And imagine we're going to grabbreakfast or lunch at a cool
spot and we're going up threeelevator floors.
On each floor a new person'sgoing to enter the elevator.
(45:07):
They recognize you and theyhave a question for you, and the
amount of time you have toanswer it is the amount of time
it takes to go up one elevatorfloor.
So with that first person getsin, they've read your book,
perhaps they even attended oneof the MindShift masterminds.
Dr Cothin, what's one gem thatyou have, whether it be a quote
(45:28):
or a mantra that you live yourlife by, that I can put in my
back pocket to serve me well inthe future.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, my motto is be happy, healthy and full of love.
So can you ask yourself at theend of every day did you do
something that made you happy,are you living a healthy
lifestyle and did you share lovetoday?
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Hearing that makes me smile from ear to ear.
Next person gets on Dr Cotham.
What's one step that we cantake today to bolster our mental
performance and wellbeing?
Speaker 1 (46:04):
I would say the five minute mind is my game changer,
so can you sit and seekstillness for five minutes every
day.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
You know, I just released a podcast episode today
about the power of stillnessand that being a key enabler for
self-mastery.
Love that practice Last one.
Love that practice last one.
Dr cothen, what's one book inaddition to yours that you
(46:31):
recommend people read in 2025 toimprove their mental game?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
power of moments.
Um, I can't think of the author, but the book is so essential
because it talks about theintentionality of creating
moments and how impactful thatcan be for people's mental and
emotional well-being.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Beautiful, dr Cothen.
This was an amazingconversation.
Love that we got to connectagain and very appreciative of
the insights that you sharedtoday from everything.
Everything from encouragingpeople to experience their
(47:09):
emotions, not be afraid toexperience who they really are
at the heart and not allow thatto stop them to encouraging
people that mental performanceand having people on your team
isn't just something that we doto feel better in a given moment
(47:32):
or get over something.
It's something that isimportant to achieve our
greatest level of performanceand it's an amazing maintenance
activity.
In addition to the mentalworkout, to everything that you
have coming up with, your mindshift masterminds.
Love to see the continuedimpact that you are creating in
(47:57):
this world and it's my, it's mywish that people follow along
your journey, take their mentalperformance seriously, so that
they can win today.
Thank you so much.
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