October 20, 2025 • 54 mins
What if spiritual practice didn’t pull you out of your body—but brought you deeper into it? After a month of eclipses, team changes, and heartfelt goodbyes, Christine turned to Tantra not as dogma, but as a grounded, embodied way to meet life. With guest (and her beloved) Jim Macdonald, they unpack what Tantra means to them: a practice of self-love that integrates sexual energy with spirit through the simple, potent tools of breath, movement, and sound.
We start by clearing the fog around Tantra. Forget the hype and the rigid scripts—this approach welcomes solo practitioners and couples alike. Jim shares the SkyDancing Institute's lineage of neo-tantra, where the focus is raising energy from root to crown for expanded awareness and everyday ecstasy. Christine bridges Tantra with her Shamanic Reiki background, showing how energy work becomes more alive when you let the body move, the breath deepen, and the voice open.
In today's episode, we'll cover:
- Reframing spiritual practice as embodiment, not escape
- Demystifying and de-hyping Tantra
- 3 Keys of Tantra: breath, movement, and sound
- Accessibility for solo practitioners and couples
- Christine’s fusion of Tantra with Shamanic Reiki
- Mythic archetypes: Shiva/Shakti, Isis/Osiris
- Inner union of steadiness and fluidity
- Emphasis on safety, consent, and boundaries
- Letting go of goals to reduce performance pressure
- Sacred communication for healing intimacy
Ready to explore further? Join our free webinar on Sacred Space and The 3 Keys to Creating a Sacred Sex Life, then continue with our five‑week masterclass, Intro to Tantra: Awakening Aliveness through the Tantric Arts of Breath, Movement, and Sound.
Subscribe, share with a friend who needs this reframe, and leave a review to help more listeners find their way to embodied wisdom.
...............
Wednesday, Oct 22nd at 6pm PT/ 7pm MT/ 9pm ET - Free Online Webinar: Sacred Space & the 3 Keys to Creating a Sacred Sex Life - Register Here!
Wednesdays beginning Nov 5th through Dec 10th at 4pm PT/ 5pm MT/ 7pm ET - 5 Week Intro to Tantra Masterclass - Learn More & Register Here!
Moon Rising Shamanic Institute Links:
Website: https://moonrisinginstitute.com/
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/moonrisinginstitute
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/moonrisingmystics
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/moonrising.institute
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@moonrisinginstitute
Subscribe to the Newsletter: https://moonrisinginstitute.kit.com/spiritguide
Book a session with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/90-minutes-intensive
Book a FREE 10 minute connect call with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/10-minute-connect-call-srpt
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
It's time to remember your divine purpose and
limitless potential.
Welcome to Wisdom Rising, theofficial podcast of Moon Rising
Shamanic Institute.
Join shamanic Reikipractitioners Christine Renee,
Isabel Wells, and Chantel Ochoaas we guide you on a journey of
radical self-discovery andspiritual guidance.
(00:27):
Each week, we'll dance throughthe realms of shamanism,
mysticism, energy healing, andpersonal development to
illuminate your path to truehealing and self-sourced wisdom.
Through weekly inspiredconversations and interviews
with leading spiritual andshamanic practitioners, we are
here to help you acknowledge,reconcile, and balance your
(00:50):
energy so that you can awaken tothe whispers of wisdom rising
from within.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
While I typically don't emphasize astrological
events to the degree thatChantel does, their impact was
undeniable, affecting not onlymy personal life and moon
rising, but also many of ourclients and students.
Let me provide a timeline.
The full moon lunar eclipse onSeptember 7th initiated energies
(01:37):
of emotional clarity,revelation, and trust.
During this time, we wereactively launching Soul Rising,
striving for success.
However, enrollment numbers werelower than anticipated,
necessitating adjustments inmany areas of the business as a
new moon solar eclipse andequinox arrived on September
21st.
Our team then underwent atransition, realigning with new
(02:00):
callings and passions, whichbrought forth emotions,
including grief.
This upheaval wasn't limited tomoon rising.
It felt like every area of mylife was shaken, with the sole
exception of my stablerelationship with my partner.
We recorded this podcast episodeon September 30th.
(02:21):
Subsequently, on October 3rd, Iwrote a blog post titled Free
Falling into Love, detailingthis personal tower moment,
which is now available on ourmoonrisinginstitute.com website
and linked in the show notes.
The podcast recording needed tohappen when it did because Jim
McDonald, our guest for today'sepisode, has been traveling for
(02:43):
his Tantra teacher training withthe Sky Dancing Institute
throughout most of October.
Knowing the episode wouldn't bepublished for a few weeks, I did
my best to remain present as wediscussed the meaning of Tantra
for us.
Jim is quite a flirt.
So for those who'd like to seeme flustered while trying to
stay on topic, I recommendwatching the YouTube version.
(03:05):
On October 10th, the 1010portal, representing trust in a
higher purpose and positiveunfolding of events, I
experienced a noticeable shiftin energy towards a state of
flow.
This past Monday, October 13th,we had a heartfelt ceremonies
and said our goodbyes to Isabel,bringing a sense of completion.
(03:26):
Today's episode introducesTantra, and I can confidently
say that it has helped menavigate the emotional
fluctuations of the past month.
I'm excited to share what Tantrameans to me and to my beloved
Jim and us as a couple.
This serves as an introductionto Tantra before our free live
webinar this Wednesday onOctober 22nd on sacred space and
(03:50):
the three keys to creating asacred sex life, which is will
not be covered in this episode.
The webinar will be available onthe podcast prior to our
five-week online masterclass,Intro to Tantra Awakening
Aliveness through the tantricarts of breath, movement, and
sound.
For more details, please referto the link in the show notes.
(04:13):
And with that, let's dive in.
Please welcome our wisdom risingguest and the love of my life,
Jim McDonald, to the show.
Welcome back to another episodeof Wisdom Rising.
Today we have on a specialguest.
My beloved is with me, JimMcDonald, who we are um coming
(04:36):
together to talk about Tantrabecause it's one of our favorite
things to practice together andshare with the world through
workshops and hopefully amasterclass soon.
And so I'm really excited tohave you on the show.
Thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
I'm really excited to be here too.
It's not my first time on yourpodcast, though.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
No, it's not.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Like if you all the first time as a couple that I've
been on your podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh you were on about a year anda half ago, and we talked about
facilitation, particularly forchakra dance, which is something
you're licensed andfacilitating.
And I really do enjoy wheneveryou put those on.
Like that was that was great.
Good times.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Good times, but we're not doing that tonight.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
We're not doing that tonight.
What are we doing?
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
We're not doing any chakra dance tonight.
But we might have chakras.
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
We might talk about chakras.
That will that might uh touch onthat.
So yeah, I'm really excited forthe conversation because I think
there's a lot ofmisunderstanding out in the
world about what Tantra is.
And you know, I feel like I'mstill a novice compared to how
(05:47):
much you've studied over theyears, but I still So I'm
supposed to come here and be thefull understanding of Tantra and
impart my wisdom to your podcastlisteners that they have the
true no, I not that intention.
I literally loved it.
Like I kind of went throughpodcasts today on what other
(06:09):
people have podcasts on on thistopic.
And I was like, wow, it's likeeither gurus telling them they
have all of this wisdom and orinformation, or there's just
like not a lot of I don't know,diversity or something I really
resonated.
It felt like there's theseexperts that were just trying to
convince people of something.
(06:30):
So I'm I was like, I wanted tocome on and do something
different, like have it be moreconversational, more real life,
more yeah, like learn like whatis this actually all about and
how can it be practiced, butmake it something that is a
little bit more fun than a dryconversation of and a lesson of
what tantra is.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
Okay, so I'll tell you about Tantra and I won't be
a guru.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
So you probably want me to talk about it, what it
starts with, but I'd be reallycurious when I say the word
tantra, what is evoked for you,or maybe what was evoked for you
before you ever started studyingit?
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
You know, I I think this might sound silly, but I
think I first got introduced toTantra.
It was always something that waskind of in the background of
something I would I knew Iwanted to study or be interested
in.
And I thought it had to be acouple thing.
And I think that was my firstunderstanding was like I would
see pictures on tantra treats,and it sees two people gazing
(07:34):
into each other's eyes and doingLati Han and all of these, this,
this, these intimacy practices,but it was very much the
Facebook advertisement versionof what Tantra was.
And I was just like, whateverthat, whatever they're doing, I
I want that in my relationship,right?
And um, I ended up really beingfirst introduced to Tantra at an
(07:58):
all-women's retreat, which kindof blew that image out of the
water that it had to be a couplething.
Yeah, it was just peeling backmisconceptions every ever since,
and also recognizing thatthere's not one true answer that
everyone's gonna agree upon.
Like I think that's something Ialso have discovered that it's
(08:18):
like you can look at what tantrais from all these different
angles, and like it's likelooking through a prism, and
which angle are we looking atit?
And are two people looking atthe same way, but someone else
could perceive it a completelydifferent way.
And I think that's what makes itso dynamic.
And I don't think there'snecessarily the right way or
wrong way, it's justmulti-faceted spiritual
(08:40):
practice.
SPEAKER_02 (08:41):
So there's a lot possibly to Tantra, but when you
first it was about couples, wasit about sex?
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Not necessarily.
I think it was more aboutintimacy.
SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
I think that's intimacy between couples.
SPEAKER_01 (08:53):
I think that's what I originally gravitated towards.
And I think I had come fromrelationships that didn't have
availability for vulnerabilityor to be fully who you are or to
be vulnerable, whether that's incommunication or in sexual
practices, right?
And so I think there was ayearning for whatever that is, I
(09:16):
want to explore that.
But I was never in arelationship that had a partner
that would be willing to gothere till now till now.
Now it's been amazing.
So um, yeah, I feel like ourfirst real encounters really
were tantric in its in theirnature, right?
(09:38):
And so I was like, oh when we'redoing that podcast about chakra
things, I was no, I meant as asa couple, as a couple, like I
feel like we've always had thatfooting or foundation of being
real.
I think that was one of thethings that I was like, you
could draw me into a vulnerablespace state within a matter of a
(10:01):
few moments.
And I was like, he can have realconversations, he can actually
hold like hold not only holdspace, but like also be
vulnerable with me.
And that was even before we weredating, you know.
Pretty curious how I can yeah, Ido because it because it was a
long, I know it was a a longwhile ago.
SPEAKER_02 (10:24):
It was, it was yeah, I was first started to be
interested probably about 12years ago.
And I like you, I had theconception that tantra was for
couples, but I wasn't interestedin it until I was in a really
dark place in my life, and I wastrying to come out of it and
(10:45):
trying to find love for myself,and I was starting to do
practices that try to that wereencouraging that.
And a very dear person suggestedmaybe I'd be interested in
studying tantra.
And for once that resonated, andI don't know why it resonated,
(11:05):
but for once it resonated, and Ithought to myself, okay, I'm
gonna study tantra, but I'm notgonna do it as a couple, I'm
gonna do it as a gift to myself.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
And little did I know that the the woman I
started studying who wrote abook called The Art of Sexual
Ecstasy, a woman named MargotAnand, that that that was the
premise of her book, that thetantra starts with self-love,
loving of yourself.
And if you recognize that youare a complete person, then
(11:38):
you're ready for reclaiming yournature, which is bliss.
But I didn't know any of that.
So I first went thinking I wasbeing quite the rebel by going
as a solo and uh deciding I amnot here to hook up, meet
anybody.
I did have the sexual sense thatI had a sexual overtone to it,
(12:00):
and I am just going to be hereas an act of love for myself,
and then by accident, I ended upthere for all the right reasons.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
I love that.
I think that's that's where I'mlike, well, the divine conspired
with you, orchestrated things toput those breadcrumbs in front
of you to lead you right whereyou needed to be.
SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:22):
But I don't think we really get gotten much of a
sense of what tantra means ormeans to me.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:31):
Because I think there's a lot of different
meanings.
When someone comes to me andsays, one of you came to me and
said, What is tantra?
I would, or I practice tantra, Iwould have no idea what they
were talking about, even thoughI study tantra.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Right, right.
And I think that's part of, Idon't know if it's necessarily a
problem, but it's definitelylike there isn't one set
definition.
And there's so much diversityand and variety, and um it can
get kind of confusing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
So why don't we do a little thing where I sort of go
over what I think tantra is, andyou go over then what you
studied?
Because I know we've studiedslightly different things, and
then how we're coming togetherto practice it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Yeah, I like it.
Let's do that.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
All right.
So tantra, uh, the tantra Istudy is considered a branch of
what's called neo-tantra, tantrathat's really hasn't existed
since the 19th century, it'sonly existed since the 1970s.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
And like I said, it comes from the teachings of a
woman named Margot Anand whowrote the art of sexual ecstasy
in 1989.
But of course, tantra roots inIndia and Nepal, way back in
from the 8th to the 11thcenturies AD.
But so there are people whopractice what they call
traditional tantra.
(13:56):
And I would argue there mightnot really be such a coherent
thing as traditional tantra.
Others would disagree.
There's a whole online group youcan go to.
There are books, many bookswritten about traditional
tantra.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
But the word tantra comes from a Sanskrit word that
means to weave, and it soundsreally spiritual and religious,
but really what they meant wasthat it was written, there were
things that were written down.
And then in the 19th century,English scholars in India,
British scholars, found thesetexts and they called them
(14:30):
tantras because they werewritten down, and they seem to
have some things in common.
And among them, a very tinyfraction of those texts talked
about sexuality, and otherstalked about other things that
were more rebellious, eatingmeat, or trying different
practices to get enlightenmentbecause people were not in the
(14:53):
Brahmin class, the Brahmin classwas the highest class, and those
were the people who were theonly ones thought to be able to
reach enlightenment, and therewere people who are resisting
that.
So a lot of these tantra attacksare people trying to find other
practices to come into thatenlightenment, but they're not
(15:15):
necessarily coherent, there'snot like a religious point of
view to them.
You know, there's a lot of youneed a guru for this, you need
to do this practice here, thispractice there.
Another one might say somethingcompletely different.
Um so, and then there wasn'treally a practice, it just kept
(15:35):
going, right?
There wasn't some people callingthemselves, we practice tantra
since the 800s, because that theword didn't it really exist to
describe it until the 19thcentury.
So people practicing tantra arereally the traditional tantra,
are those who are practicingwhat they take from the
traditions that come out ofreading those old texts.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Yeah.
And typically finding like theirown guru and some lineage,
right?
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (16:03):
Correct.
And that and in the past thattended to be still
male-centered.
unknown (16:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
There is a story of a Buddha, you know, named uh
Padma Sambava, who took a uhconsort named Yeshit Soigal, and
and uh he with her, it said thatthrough their sexual union she
danced in the sky, and thatreally impressed um Margot
Anand.
And so she called her lineagesky dancing, and that's the
(16:31):
lineage I follow, but it's stilla newer practice, yeah.
And that newer practice is is isa fusion of Western Jungian
psychology, other Westernpractices, other eastern
practices, and also justMargot's generally own
experience of what she feltfound worked.
SPEAKER_03 (16:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
And so through experiment and experiment and
experiment, she found a methodthat helped raise our energy up
from the earth up through ourcrown, bringing our sexual
energy up into a spiritual placeand a blissful place.
So she called, she said that ournature is bliss, that if we do
(17:15):
these practices, we can beecstatic pretty much most of the
time.
Uh, and once you're ecstatic andin that place, you can even
manifest things and do magic.
And so I come from a lineagethat is about integrating sexual
energy with our spirit spirit,you know, the entire chakra
(17:37):
system and moving that energyalways from the ground up so
that we can then connectoutward, but then still come
back to the ground.
So it's a body spirit practice.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
You know, I'm I'm kind of giggling over here is
because so everyone who'slistening to this probably knows
that I've been doing Reikiforever.
And I was always kind of a rebeland did things out of the box.
Reiki?
Yes, I do Reiki for like a longtime, right?
So, but one of the things thatlike one of the first things I
(18:08):
broke the rules on was you'resupposed to work, do Reiki head
down.
And I was like, no, no, no, itneeds to be root up, and we're
gonna use the chakras and we'regonna move the energy from the
root up.
And so even when I would beteaching Reiki, I would teach
them like, this is the wayyou're quote unquote supposed to
do it.
This is what I find works betterfor a lot of people.
(18:31):
And I um I find that that youcan energy is energy, is energy.
It doesn't matter if it's Reikienergy or sexual energy or earth
energy or divine energy, likeit's all energy.
And I think for me, the tantrapractice is really about
recognizing that energy withinus and all around us and how do
we move it.
(18:52):
And I I think for me, it's likeI've I already knew how to move
energy within me from my Rickybackground, which made just this
lens of this practice even moreexpressive or more easy easy to
like, oh, I I know how to dothis.
(19:15):
Like, and it's been really umfun to bring it into more of a
movement.
You know, I think that there'sbeen some of the practices that
that I've been introducedthrough with Tantra, that I've
been like, oh, I've done thispractice for years, but now I'm
doing it with movement.
(19:35):
Now I'm doing it with sound, nowI'm doing it with breath.
That was different than just mytraditional, very uh, I don't
know, it feels very it feelsvery masculine to like hold your
body still, and we're gonna likebring energy from above in, you
know, it's just and then we'relike flip it on its head, it
(19:57):
feels much more feminine andflowing and moving and sounding,
and that can be a little bitmore uh and I don't know,
intuitive and wild.
And I I think that's what I loveabout around Tantra, but that
doesn't necessarily explain.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
So I want to ask you a question, and I know we're we
want to get to what what tantrais for you and what your
definition is, but but I butwhat I heard you say was uh
traditionally Reiki is a verymasculine energy.
If anything, it's bringing thespirit down into your body,
right?
It's like the spirit is thepureness that your body needs to
(20:35):
contain it.
And and uh as I understand it,you do shamanic Reiki, which is
uh more wild and and feminine.
So would you say shamanic Reikiin the sense it's like a
tantric?
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah, it can be.
And I think the oftentimes wehear Reiki in and of itself
being the energy is feminine,but we need this masculine
practice to make us disciplinedand hold still and have your
hands in a certain way, and likeall these the the rules feel
very masculine in Reiki, right?
(21:07):
But the energy itself, with allenergy, you're gonna get both,
right?
I mean, I don't I would say Idon't think tantra energy or
Reiki energy is just masculineor feminine.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
Like I just I don't think it has yeah, we wouldn't
even call it tantric energy,right?
Right sexual energy.
Tantra is that union of of Shivaand Shakti that we have within
us.
So Shiva being traditionally themasculine energy, Shakti, the
feminine, or let's not sayenergy, this masculine and the
(21:41):
feminine.
And energy is Shakti.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
And Shiva is the can is the vessel, the container,
the holder of the energy.
And a lot of what we're doing inTantra is is working with having
both of those feel it, you know,in harmony within us, even as
we're playing different roleswith each other.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Right.
And so there's like love thatlens.
And right.
And so some of what I've studiedis that like you have these two
internal snakes, and one ismasculine, one is feminine, and
there's two, and one's Ida andone's pingola, and they swirl
through your chakras and come upto your third eye until they
like open and you getenvisionings, right?
And I'm like, that's that's fun,that feels good, right?
(22:27):
And how do you get them toawaken from with you within you,
right?
Like, and how do we move thatenergy?
So I um I and I think that'swhere it's like, I don't know if
there's necessarily a I don'tthink there needs to be a right
or wrong as long as people arefeeling it.
Right.
I think the more it feels moreimportant to understand that we
(22:50):
can have this ecstatic lifestyleor this tuning into our full
selves and know that we have thecapacity to be liberated in this
way.
That's what it feels like.
Is that uh your energy, yourconnection, your it's your
responsibility to be able toflow and move and cultivate that
(23:14):
energy flow within you.
And that's what feels reallygood.
SPEAKER_02 (23:19):
It does.
So, what is tantra to you andmaybe a little of your journey?
SPEAKER_01 (23:25):
Okay.
Um, tantra to me feels like anembodied practice, and I think
I've come to this and and verymuch of kind of what I explained
earlier.
Well, it's not that and it's notthat, and it's not that.
And that's how I kind of came towhat it is for me, because I've
been in the the very more of aBuddhist background with Reiki
(23:49):
and going on these Japanpilgrimages and and learning how
to meditate their way and how todo Zen meditation, how to do,
how to do these practices totranscend.
And it feels like you're leavingthe body to experience
enlightenment, experienceSatory.
(24:10):
And I just got to a point in myown practice of going, well, so
what?
We we chose to come here.
Like my belief is that we choseto come here in this body to
have these experiences.
Why am I trying to escape it?
So I've come to Tantra and theunderstanding that this is going
to allow me to fully experiencethe fullness of life and to live
(24:35):
ecstatically in that and reallybe able to utilize our physical
body containers to feel thefullness of life and feel
everything in a more heightenedway.
And that's not like I could seethe my Buddhist counterparts
going, well, that's going toincrease suffering.
And I'm like, it increases joy,it increases pleasure, it
(24:57):
increases uh love, right?
It increases this availabilityto really feel it all.
And to me, that's really theessence of what tantra is for
me, is like, if I can know howto tap into this energy flow,
one, it it is very enlighteningto where things are stuck in
(25:19):
your body.
Like I know that, and when Ifirst started practicing, I
could feel where the energycould move up to, and then get
like you could reach somethingand go, oh, there's something
there.
And it was we were using theframework of the chakras, which
I was very familiar with, andgoing, Oh, there's there's grief
in my heart.
And so now I can move thatenergy, and I'm gonna have this
(25:40):
huge emotional uh experience torelease that stagnant energy
that was there that hadn't had achance to move and be processed,
right?
Like it's not that I'm denying,not like I'm not shoving away
and not looking at my grief.
It's just you might not even beaware that your body is still
holding on to it.
(26:00):
So you're allowing your body torecognize where things are
flowing with ease and wherethings are getting stuck.
SPEAKER_02 (26:07):
Does that happen to you recently?
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
I feel like I blow through things really easily at
this point.
But yeah, I mean, I think that'sso true.
Like when there's big, heavyemotions and you are available
for them, you get a fully, youget to fully express what how
how they feel and what they needto move through in a really uh
(26:31):
it feels like a really potentway, but it's it's like emotions
get all swirled together.
Like you can move from ecstaticbliss and grief and pain and
whatever is showing up for you,and it's all available to just
move.
And I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
So tantra for you is an embodied practice that moves
energy, gets through blocks,allows it, allows you to be
integrated and connected.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
And is there anything like I know you study a
different tradition?
And sure.
Do you want to talk about that?
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Yeah, I totally can.
I think that's where you know Iyou have to like from my
tradition, it's like you have toenjoy mythology.
You have to to be willing tocreate stories around the myths
and really understand mythologybecause it oftentimes comes back
to Egyptian stories of Isis andOsiris and their story, or Jesus
(27:33):
and Mary Magdalene, or likethese prototypes of the sacred
union or the beloved, or youknow, these relationships,
recognizing that within each ofus we have both these energies
of feminine and masculine.
And how are we cultivating thatwithin?
And then how do we match thatwith a partner who's also doing
(27:55):
the work?
And how in that union you canhave bliss together, have more
of an experience of oneness, notonly with each other, but with a
divine essence.
SPEAKER_02 (28:09):
So would you say it's fairer?
It's partially aboutrelationship with yourself,
partially about relationshipwith each other through those
relationships, relationship withthe divine.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:20):
So it's like different prototypes.
So Egyptian, Middle Eastern sortof ones is where it rooted in,
but they'd be open to Shiva andShakti and Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
Right?
It's it's all about like reallyunderstanding the myths and what
these stories were.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
So this is probably different from what other people
do with tantra.
I know it is, right?
Like there are some people forwhom sexuality has almost
nothing to do with tantra, orit's just a simply spiritual
experience.
SPEAKER_03 (28:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
Right.
Right.
And then there are other tantrasthat are about completely about
learning sexual union and a lotless about how that connects to
divinity, more aboutinterpersonal connection.
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:03):
So that's probably where we got the couples idea.
SPEAKER_01 (29:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (29:06):
And then there are all kinds of tantras in between.
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
There's all kinds of tantras in between.
And I think it's like working onyourself first, like really
understanding and coming to aplace of self-love is feels for
me, it always feels like thefirst step, like really
recognizing the energy withinyou and being able to willing to
look at what's there, what'sgetting in the way.
(29:30):
How are you cultivating your ownflow and enjoyment with life?
So it could just be go hoohooping outside or floating the
river or whatever it is, likewhatever brings you joy.
Like it's saying yes to thataspect of yourself that I think
society oftentimes, because ofthe productivity has been pushed
(29:53):
and programmed into us.
How do we say yes to those basicpleasures of?
Life enjoying the freaking pieceof cake and not worrying about
how many calories are in it, orwhatever it may be, like just
fully indulging in our senses.
It's a sensory experience.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Sensory.
So, in that sense, again, anembodied experience.
So, I what I heard was a lot ofagreement, really, right?
That there's that there arethese different aspects within
us.
Some of them are wild andenergetic, some of them are
maybe more containing andspace-holding, you know,
masculine and feminine for lackof a better word, but that all
(30:34):
exists within us, whatevergender or gender binary or
whatever we are, yep.
All of that exists.
An embodied experience of movingenergy for fuller integration
and ultimately for greaterenjoyment of the life that we're
living now, right?
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
Yes.
I'm not trying to escapeanything.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
To be feel more alive.
And if you happen to escape,like whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (31:00):
If it's gonna be a moment of escape, I'll take it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
But that can't be the focus of your life because
then that becomes um a stressfulgoal-oriented thing.
The goal is the goal is tosimply be right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
I think that's it.
Like I'm I I think um if we ifwe as a society could take out
goals, like I get that we wantto keep your goal.
I don't know.
I just feel like God, I mean,whether it is a couple coming,
going to the bedroom with thegoal of like, I have to have an
orgasm, or it's I'm going towork and I need to make I need
(31:39):
to hit this sales quota, or youknow, like there's this always
this push.
And what if we found the flowwith divine?
What if we found the the divinewithin us and found our own
internal flow?
What what if what if it wasabout alignment?
Like, how are things lining upfor me?
Like, I think it's like the wayyou came to tantric a goal,
(31:59):
right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:59):
In a sense that, but it's a shifting of the goal.
Instead of that goal beingsomething outside of us, I want
to be rich, I want to have Iwant to have amazing orgasms, I
want to have um the whatever itis, right?
If the goal simply is I want tobe true to my nature, I want to
(32:20):
be connected.
SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
Yeah, I think that's it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:22):
That's connected, then all the other stuff becomes
irrelevant.
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Right.
Well, and I think that's how wewere born to be.
We are born to be connected, weare born to be alive in the
fullness of who we are.
We were born to utilize oursenses and not deny them, right?
Like if I'm like to use I didn'tlike that, I like to use our
senses.
It's good, all very yummy,right?
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
We're animals after all, right?
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Yeah, not just animals, but not yeah, and I
think that's it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:56):
Like, where that and it's like where is the the and
so how do we how do we move thisenergy?
I think if tantra is aboutmoving it, does tantra just say,
yeah, it's just about moving it?
Are there like any tools or ohyeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (33:12):
And so I know and leading question.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
I think of yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
I know what I think about uh well, and I know from
the Sky Dancing Institute, likeit's very clear that that you
have these three keys to thistantric.
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Three keys, three keys.
SPEAKER_01 (33:27):
How many did I say?
SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
Yes, you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:29):
Okay, three.
SPEAKER_02 (33:30):
You got it right.
I got it gonna like it.
Three keys, three keys.
It's three excellententhusiastic.
SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
These are good ones.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
Yeah, I'm using my one of them, using one of the
keys, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Sound, sound sound is a really prominent one, and
that that's one people strugglewith exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (33:47):
I'm not always in the bedroom, sometimes,
sometimes not, but in general,that's one I think people are
struggling with, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
Yes, and well, and just recognizing how am I
speaking my truth?
Am I talking up?
Do I am I suppressing who I am?
Like so much of your voice isreflective of your solar plexus
and like being able to reallyaccept this is who I am, this is
what I sound like, this is thesound I want to make.
(34:18):
How do I want to communicate myneeds, desires, and wants?
Like all of that is showing upbecause you it's the expressions
of desires, diaphragm, huh?
SPEAKER_02 (34:28):
And right in the solar plexus, right?
But but it's I think not evenjust the metaphorical stuff,
literally allowing your voice togo moves your body and moves
hormones in your body, moves allkinds of stuff, and and and taps
into it in a way that if you'rerestricting that voice, yeah,
(34:49):
that you're not getting into.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:53):
So sound sound.
What are the other two keys?
So I think one that peopleprobably are more into in
spiritual communities is breath,right?
Yeah.
Breath work.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Everyone's doing everyone's really into breath
jokes, like activate the DMT inyour lungs.
You're gonna have these amazingpsychedelic natural experiences.
And I'm like, yeah, it's true.
It's true, it's true.
It's true, absolutely, and and Ithink I think it's so popular
right now for a reason.
I think people are looking for away to have these, I don't know,
(35:30):
big experiences, psychedelicexperiences, these like powerful
embodied experiences that theyknow that they can tap into
without taking a substance.
SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
So, how many people do you think are connecting
their breath to their sexualcore and using that to move
their energy?
SPEAKER_01 (35:47):
I don't think they are.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Like well, they probably are, right?
But are they aware that that'sthe process that there is a
process?
I think that's it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Right.
So, like when we go into uh likea Win-hof breathing, like, yeah,
you're activating those lungs,you're breathing in a way to
really kick in a very quickbreath.
But if we knew where we werepulling energy from, up from the
earth and moving it into thebody, like I'm like you're
bringing it up and through, thenyou're you really are going to
(36:18):
enhance the process.
And I think that's where thatenergetic awareness comes in.
Like you can do breath work andhave really phenomenal
experiences with breath work orjust allowing your internal
voice to quiet down becauseyou're focusing on the breath.
Like all of those things arereally positive.
SPEAKER_02 (36:34):
But if we knew that we could also bring in this
other element of breath work toenhance uh our sexual ecstasy, I
I would say um it's even moreimportant and in the modern
context, because for how manyhundreds, maybe thousands of
(36:54):
years has our sexuality beenrepressed, especially for women,
right?
But even for men, because Idon't think men are having
anything near the kind of sexualecstasy that they could be
having, because the way men andmen have sort of enforced away
of having sex has not been umhealthy or good, certainly not
(37:17):
for women who are being abusedand barely we barely understand
female anatomy, right?
And it's the 21st century sexualanatomy.
Um, but men also because ofrepression around fears of
homosexuality, fears of ofletting feminine energy into
(37:38):
their into their being.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Yeah, they've got to be a man and do it this way and
dominate.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
So because that's been so repressed, right?
It's been procreative ornothing, um, or it has been just
for the man's pleasure, and Iwould argue only for a very
limited kind of pleasure.
SPEAKER_03 (37:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (37:59):
We're that's the part of us that's been treated
as sort of either naughty or orso different that we we ignore
it, right?
So it almost needs, to me, inthe modern context, extra
attention to bring that in.
So if all the chakras are equal,but they're not all equally out
of balance, some are more out ofbalance than others.
(38:21):
So whether you consider that inyour sacral as um most people
do, or in the root, as in thesky dancing tradition, it really
doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (38:29):
Wherever that is for you, that's probably out of
balance.
SPEAKER_01 (38:33):
Yeah, and I would say that's for most people.
Like, I think that's why for inmy school at Moonrising and
Shamanic Institute, we so put anemphasis on the lower three
chakras.
And this one, so when I came toTantra, I was like, oh, this
just fits right into my beliefsand values already.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
So breath work, breath moving that, moving that,
combining with sound evenbetter.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yeah.
Right.
We can really get into when onthat exhale, what sound wants to
come out and and allowing it to.
Like I think so much of it isthis surrendering into allowing
the body to sound and breatheand then move the way it desires
(39:23):
to.
SPEAKER_02 (39:25):
Would you say going back to sound that there's a
resistance a bit to sound, andwe can talk about it more, but
it resists to sound not justbecause we're making it, but
because we live in such a loudsociety that people are seeking
a lot of quiet.
Like they want that stillmeditation, that peaceful place.
Like one of the biggest thingsI've heard in workshops
(39:48):
complaints is they can't dealwith how much noise is
happening.
Like the noise is interruptingtheir internal process that
someone else is making.
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
Oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (39:58):
Like maybe for a different podcast, but yeah, I'm
like, I'm like, that's that'sinteresting.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
And I I mean, I've been, I mean, at the retreat
that I was at with all women, wewere not doing any stimulative
touch.
We were in our own breathworkpractice, we were all encouraged
to move and make sound on ourown mats, and we were all
having, you know, orgasms andsounds and all these things.
(40:26):
And I don't think any of us werecomplaining.
SPEAKER_02 (40:29):
But I so what if what if a man were in that room
having very orgasmic sounds in aroom of women?
SPEAKER_01 (40:35):
See, and I think I don't know if maybe is that the
dynamic?
I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02 (40:39):
I'm just wondering because I I know as a man I'm
often feeling like in for goodreason that there's a level of
suspicion on me as a man, as aspiritual practitioner, right,
because of the obvious abusesthat a lot of men have had on
women, and also just men inother in the lives of many
(41:01):
women.
So you come in and I come inextra aware that that there
might be something, you know,scary and dangerous about me as
a man, especially if I'm makingloud noises.
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
Right.
See, and I have been in thatsituation yet.
And I and I think there's a goodpoint.
I think we've had a lot ofconversations where it's like,
well, I don't know if I'd becomfortable doing this practice
if there were men around, right?
Like I think there's a lot ofcoming to finding that place of
(41:36):
what's my yeses and what's myno's, and what am I comfortable
with and what I'm not, and whereare those growth edges that I'm
willing to explore, and where amI just downright like that's a
boundary.
And I think that's one of thereasons why I have so
appreciated the Sky DancingInstitute's ethics, right?
(41:56):
Because it really does honorthose things and are in in a
really great way.
Like that's what I keep comingback to.
I'm like, I ever all the storiesI hear from your retreats, your
trainings, all the things thatyou've participated in, is like
that's a really foundationalhonored.
SPEAKER_03 (42:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (42:14):
And I think that's really needed so that if women
are in this co-gendered ormultigendered space, your one,
your voice is heard andrespected, and and you can find
where you're still comfortable.
SPEAKER_02 (42:31):
Yeah, I would agree.
I would I obviously I'm biasedas a sky dancing participant,
but one of the things that drawsme into it are the ethical
standards of the group and uhsky dancing tantra USA.
Just look it up on Google, skydancing tantra.org or dot com.
I don't remember.
But um, but but among thosethings is one, a clear idea of
(42:55):
consent, clear idea ofboundaries, prospective
boundaries, and yeah, uh andjust general, you know, ethics
around instructors not havingrelationships with students,
right?
You know, things like that,which are very dangerous in the
uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
I knew that I was like, okay, if I want to date
you, if I want to be with you, Ineed to start right now because
you've got all these stance forworkshops.
SPEAKER_02 (43:20):
You're taking a workshop with that, yeah, but
not for six months.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Yeah, I recognize that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Well, I'm glad you uh made yourself available in
time.
But but we've gone through twoof the keys.
There's one other key.
SPEAKER_01 (43:42):
Movement.
Movement, movement, and I thinkI I I think this goes to also
what's really popular right nowis that somatic therapy.
You know, it's it's reallyrecognizing that the body keeps
the score, the body holds thetrauma, the body is also this
really amazing, beautiful thingthat can move energy.
(44:03):
So when you you combined freedomof movement, feeling liberated
and moving your body however itwants to without judgment, and
really a form of self-love tosay, yeah, I can move this way.
And it for any for whetheryou're dancing alone or you're
with a partner, it doesn'treally matter.
It's like this having this uhacceptance that movement is
(44:25):
going to be supportive to thatenergy flow.
SPEAKER_02 (44:28):
Yeah, I I think movement's absolutely vital.
Like if we want growth in ourlives, then we have to be able
to break patterns.
If we're just thinking about it,yeah, we can think of, oh, I
should do this, I should dothat.
But if we aren't actually makingour body do those things, our
body are a collection of habits,we have to break those habits.
(44:52):
So making sounds you're notnormally making, breathing in
ways you're not normallybreathing, and moving in ways
you're not normally moving, akadance.
Yeah, but but we can also bemoving through the breath work.
We can just as we're sounding,we can allow a certain movement.
Right.
We can, but also just dancing.
(45:13):
And then in dancing, we caninvite breath in while we're
dancing.
We can invite sound in whilewe're dancing, right?
So we can invite the other keysinto other things that we're
doing.
But even just practicing one ofthose keys can be really
powerful.
Powerful towards rewiringyourself and allowing the
channels to open up forintegration.
SPEAKER_01 (45:36):
Yeah.
I just, I mean, part of it'slike I'm right now, yeah, I'm
kind of totally in love with thepractice and learning because it
makes it makes a lot of sensewith how our society's been
repressed and movement sound.
Right.
And we're giving encouragementand to to do the things that
(45:59):
feel good.
And it's not like, I mean,there's some but they might feel
uncomfortable.
Right.
I was gonna say, like some oflike the traditional tantra,
it's like hold this position andput your tongue on your roof of
your mouth like this and squeezeyour face or whatever it may be.
And that might be stillconsidered a tantric practice,
but I think it's going back to alot of that traditional was it
(46:22):
was experimental and trying tofigure out what worked.
Like I think that when I thinkabout traditional, I want to
always remember these were agroup of people that were trying
to find different avenues ofembodiment, of ecstasy, of
connecting with the divine.
SPEAKER_02 (46:38):
There's all kinds of practices that can work.
And if it works for you, do it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (46:42):
What I like about my tradition is I feel like it's
it's still a lot of work, butit's it's simplified.
But it is meant to be somewhatuncomfortable, right?
Right.
How do we find so if it'saliveness we're wanting, I think
I feel most alive when I'm alsocalm in that align of aliveness.
How do I get to that calm space?
(47:04):
Well, I've got to expand mycomfort zone.
I can't expand my comfort zoneunless I'm doing things that are
in some senses uncomfortable,right?
SPEAKER_01 (47:13):
But then I think they get more uncomfortable over
time, or you build trust withthe person that you're doing
these practices with.
SPEAKER_02 (47:20):
Like our sex life?
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
Like our sex life.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, it could be likeone of your group frames, like,
yeah, I don't want to get nakedin front of people, and now it's
like, yeah, now it's not a bigdeal.
Right.
And then, but there is thatpiece of like when you when you
have conversations from the verystart of what's your fears,
desires, and boundaries?
Let's talk about all thesethings on a regular basis, it
(47:45):
makes it so much easier to gointo a bedroom space of going,
I'm really fully honored andbeing free in all of these three
to these three keys, right?
SPEAKER_02 (47:55):
Yes.
And when you throw in some ofthe other practices we have
around sacred communication, howto listen to each other, how to
state our desires, our fears,and our boundaries.
Again, giving up goalorientation, just being in the
moment with the person, thenbringing in breath, movement,
and sound.
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
And it's uh so sweet and so yummy.
Right.
And the funny thing is, then allthe weird performance stuff
tends to actually go prettywell, also.
unknown (48:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (48:27):
But if it doesn't, it doesn't.
It's not that important, but itusually does.
SPEAKER_01 (48:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (48:32):
In a way that it doesn't when you're all stressed
out all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
Right.
And I think there's, you know, Ican speak for myself as a woman.
It's like the more I can justfully be in my body and not in
the like listening to the voice,the more I can do that and just
really recognize and give myselfthe freedom to to move, to make
sound, to, to breathe in a waythat I know is going to
(48:59):
encourage the energy flow.
Like then it can just be thisbeautiful multi-orgasmic, yummy
experience.
And sometimes, yeah, it's stillgonna bring up emotions that can
be really, really uh expressiveand knowing that I'm with you
(49:19):
where it's safe to do that.
Right.
And so I feel like I can trulybe all of me and all the
expressions of me because wehave that foundation.
SPEAKER_02 (49:30):
Yeah.
And I do credit a lot of mytraining and self-work for
preparing me for a relationshipwith you, which has been
delicious.
I know that we want to talkabout what's how we're gonna
bring some of these practices tothe community and the online
(49:54):
community and so forth.
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
Absolutely.
So this Wednesday, October 22ndat 7 to 8 p.m.
Mountain Time, that's 6 Pacificor 9 p.m.
Eastern, we're gonna have a freeonline webinar on sacred space
and the three keys to creating asacred sex life.
So we're gonna be going throughthose three foundational keys of
(50:16):
tantra, breath, movement, andsound on a much deeper level and
understanding how to create thatsacred space as a container for
intimacy, healing, and eroticawakening.
So this is directed towardspeople who are solos or people
who are partnered.
Either way, this is gonna be agreat way to come to understand
(50:38):
this sacred practice and bereally present and trust in this
deep energetic connection withyourself and potentially a
partner.
And then we're gonna go into ourfive-week intro to Tantra
Masterclass, Awakening Alivenessthrough the Tantric Arts of
Breath, movement and sound,starting November 5th and with
(51:00):
office hours on November 26th toavoid the week of travel for
many folks during Thanksgiving.
And then we'll have two moreclasses after that, ending on
December 10th.
And so they're gonna be onWednesday nights.
And I'm really excited.
So, week one, we're gonna havetraining on the sacred
(51:22):
communication and how to createa sacred bubble, do heart
salutations.
Uh, and I just feel like if youknow the premise of that, oh my
gosh, it works in every area.
We just did one from BozemanCo-housing of like creating
sacred space and really beingable to share from your heart
and have these vulnerable,intimate moments with anyone.
SPEAKER_02 (51:42):
So it doesn't matter if it's it doesn't have to do
with sex at all, or it could bebasically it's a communication
tool that could be used in amore tantric context, or it
could be used in less tantriccontext.
Exactly.
But it's a beautiful tool forcommunication.
SPEAKER_01 (51:58):
And so then we're gonna move through the next
three weeks, doing one key anight.
So movement, breath, and sound.
And then we're gonna do theanother class on doing what is
sacred sexuality and how do weenhance that experience.
So these are gonna be two hourclasses.
So we'd love to have you joinus.
You're gonna find all of themasterclass information on my
(52:23):
website at ummoonrisinginstitute.com.
And just go over to the eventspage and you're gonna find the
links for all of these thingsover there, whether it's date
night, whether it's the webinar,whether it's the master class.
SPEAKER_02 (52:36):
Or just DM Kristen Renee.
She will be happy to tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
I'm used to getting DMs all day long.
So feel free to uh reach out tome.
SPEAKER_02 (52:45):
And feel free to friend me.
I'm I'm Jim McDonald, M A C D ON A L D on Facebook.
And feel free to reach out tome.
And if you have questions aboutTantra or Chakra dance, if that
interests you, feel free to askme about that or uh, I guess
anything else.
SPEAKER_01 (53:04):
Thanks so much for listening.
And until next time, may youawaken to the whispers of wisdom
rising from within.
Take care, everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
Thanks for tuning in to today's show.
The Wisdom Rising Podcast issponsored by Moonrising Shamanic
Institute.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe to the show on
your favorite podcasting app andbe the first to know when we
release a new episode.
You can find us on Instagram,Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok at
(53:39):
Moonrising Institute or visitour website,
MoonrisingInstitute.com, tolearn more about our mission and
find future opportunities toconnect with our community of
shamanic mystics.
Once again, thank you forsharing space with us today.
And until next time, may youawaken to the whispers of wisdom
rising from within.
It's time to remember your divine purpose and
limitless potential.
Welcome to Wisdom Rising, theofficial podcast of Moon Rising
Shamanic Institute.
Join shamanic Reikipractitioners Christine Renee,
Isabel Wells, and Chantel Ochoaas we guide you on a journey of
radical self-discovery andspiritual guidance.
(00:27):
Each week, we'll dance throughthe realms of shamanism,
mysticism, energy healing, andpersonal development to
illuminate your path to truehealing and self-sourced wisdom.
Through weekly inspiredconversations and interviews
with leading spiritual andshamanic practitioners, we are
here to help you acknowledge,reconcile, and balance your
(00:50):
energy so that you can awaken tothe whispers of wisdom rising
from within.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
While I typically don't emphasize astrological
events to the degree thatChantel does, their impact was
undeniable, affecting not onlymy personal life and moon
rising, but also many of ourclients and students.
Let me provide a timeline.
The full moon lunar eclipse onSeptember 7th initiated energies
(01:37):
of emotional clarity,revelation, and trust.
During this time, we wereactively launching Soul Rising,
striving for success.
However, enrollment numbers werelower than anticipated,
necessitating adjustments inmany areas of the business as a
new moon solar eclipse andequinox arrived on September
21st.
Our team then underwent atransition, realigning with new
(02:00):
callings and passions, whichbrought forth emotions,
including grief.
This upheaval wasn't limited tomoon rising.
It felt like every area of mylife was shaken, with the sole
exception of my stablerelationship with my partner.
We recorded this podcast episodeon September 30th.
(02:21):
Subsequently, on October 3rd, Iwrote a blog post titled Free
Falling into Love, detailingthis personal tower moment,
which is now available on ourmoonrisinginstitute.com website
and linked in the show notes.
The podcast recording needed tohappen when it did because Jim
McDonald, our guest for today'sepisode, has been traveling for
(02:43):
his Tantra teacher training withthe Sky Dancing Institute
throughout most of October.
Knowing the episode wouldn't bepublished for a few weeks, I did
my best to remain present as wediscussed the meaning of Tantra
for us.
Jim is quite a flirt.
So for those who'd like to seeme flustered while trying to
stay on topic, I recommendwatching the YouTube version.
(03:05):
On October 10th, the 1010portal, representing trust in a
higher purpose and positiveunfolding of events, I
experienced a noticeable shiftin energy towards a state of
flow.
This past Monday, October 13th,we had a heartfelt ceremonies
and said our goodbyes to Isabel,bringing a sense of completion.
(03:26):
Today's episode introducesTantra, and I can confidently
say that it has helped menavigate the emotional
fluctuations of the past month.
I'm excited to share what Tantrameans to me and to my beloved
Jim and us as a couple.
This serves as an introductionto Tantra before our free live
webinar this Wednesday onOctober 22nd on sacred space and
(03:50):
the three keys to creating asacred sex life, which is will
not be covered in this episode.
The webinar will be available onthe podcast prior to our
five-week online masterclass,Intro to Tantra Awakening
Aliveness through the tantricarts of breath, movement, and
sound.
For more details, please referto the link in the show notes.
(04:13):
And with that, let's dive in.
Please welcome our wisdom risingguest and the love of my life,
Jim McDonald, to the show.
Welcome back to another episodeof Wisdom Rising.
Today we have on a specialguest.
My beloved is with me, JimMcDonald, who we are um coming
(04:36):
together to talk about Tantrabecause it's one of our favorite
things to practice together andshare with the world through
workshops and hopefully amasterclass soon.
And so I'm really excited tohave you on the show.
Thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
I'm really excited to be here too.
It's not my first time on yourpodcast, though.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
No, it's not.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Like if you all the first time as a couple that I've
been on your podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh you were on about a year anda half ago, and we talked about
facilitation, particularly forchakra dance, which is something
you're licensed andfacilitating.
And I really do enjoy wheneveryou put those on.
Like that was that was great.
Good times.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Good times, but we're not doing that tonight.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
We're not doing that tonight.
What are we doing?
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
We're not doing any chakra dance tonight.
But we might have chakras.
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
We might talk about chakras.
That will that might uh touch onthat.
So yeah, I'm really excited forthe conversation because I think
there's a lot ofmisunderstanding out in the
world about what Tantra is.
And you know, I feel like I'mstill a novice compared to how
(05:47):
much you've studied over theyears, but I still So I'm
supposed to come here and be thefull understanding of Tantra and
impart my wisdom to your podcastlisteners that they have the
true no, I not that intention.
I literally loved it.
Like I kind of went throughpodcasts today on what other
(06:09):
people have podcasts on on thistopic.
And I was like, wow, it's likeeither gurus telling them they
have all of this wisdom and orinformation, or there's just
like not a lot of I don't know,diversity or something I really
resonated.
It felt like there's theseexperts that were just trying to
convince people of something.
(06:30):
So I'm I was like, I wanted tocome on and do something
different, like have it be moreconversational, more real life,
more yeah, like learn like whatis this actually all about and
how can it be practiced, butmake it something that is a
little bit more fun than a dryconversation of and a lesson of
what tantra is.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
Okay, so I'll tell you about Tantra and I won't be
a guru.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
So you probably want me to talk about it, what it
starts with, but I'd be reallycurious when I say the word
tantra, what is evoked for you,or maybe what was evoked for you
before you ever started studyingit?
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
You know, I I think this might sound silly, but I
think I first got introduced toTantra.
It was always something that waskind of in the background of
something I would I knew Iwanted to study or be interested
in.
And I thought it had to be acouple thing.
And I think that was my firstunderstanding was like I would
see pictures on tantra treats,and it sees two people gazing
(07:34):
into each other's eyes and doingLati Han and all of these, this,
this, these intimacy practices,but it was very much the
Facebook advertisement versionof what Tantra was.
And I was just like, whateverthat, whatever they're doing, I
I want that in my relationship,right?
And um, I ended up really beingfirst introduced to Tantra at an
(07:58):
all-women's retreat, which kindof blew that image out of the
water that it had to be a couplething.
Yeah, it was just peeling backmisconceptions every ever since,
and also recognizing thatthere's not one true answer that
everyone's gonna agree upon.
Like I think that's something Ialso have discovered that it's
(08:18):
like you can look at what tantrais from all these different
angles, and like it's likelooking through a prism, and
which angle are we looking atit?
And are two people looking atthe same way, but someone else
could perceive it a completelydifferent way.
And I think that's what makes itso dynamic.
And I don't think there'snecessarily the right way or
wrong way, it's justmulti-faceted spiritual
(08:40):
practice.
SPEAKER_02 (08:41):
So there's a lot possibly to Tantra, but when you
first it was about couples, wasit about sex?
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Not necessarily.
I think it was more aboutintimacy.
SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
I think that's intimacy between couples.
SPEAKER_01 (08:53):
I think that's what I originally gravitated towards.
And I think I had come fromrelationships that didn't have
availability for vulnerabilityor to be fully who you are or to
be vulnerable, whether that's incommunication or in sexual
practices, right?
And so I think there was ayearning for whatever that is, I
(09:16):
want to explore that.
But I was never in arelationship that had a partner
that would be willing to gothere till now till now.
Now it's been amazing.
So um, yeah, I feel like ourfirst real encounters really
were tantric in its in theirnature, right?
(09:38):
And so I was like, oh when we'redoing that podcast about chakra
things, I was no, I meant as asa couple, as a couple, like I
feel like we've always had thatfooting or foundation of being
real.
I think that was one of thethings that I was like, you
could draw me into a vulnerablespace state within a matter of a
(10:01):
few moments.
And I was like, he can have realconversations, he can actually
hold like hold not only holdspace, but like also be
vulnerable with me.
And that was even before we weredating, you know.
Pretty curious how I can yeah, Ido because it because it was a
long, I know it was a a longwhile ago.
SPEAKER_02 (10:24):
It was, it was yeah, I was first started to be
interested probably about 12years ago.
And I like you, I had theconception that tantra was for
couples, but I wasn't interestedin it until I was in a really
dark place in my life, and I wastrying to come out of it and
(10:45):
trying to find love for myself,and I was starting to do
practices that try to that wereencouraging that.
And a very dear person suggestedmaybe I'd be interested in
studying tantra.
And for once that resonated, andI don't know why it resonated,
(11:05):
but for once it resonated, and Ithought to myself, okay, I'm
gonna study tantra, but I'm notgonna do it as a couple, I'm
gonna do it as a gift to myself.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
And little did I know that the the woman I
started studying who wrote abook called The Art of Sexual
Ecstasy, a woman named MargotAnand, that that that was the
premise of her book, that thetantra starts with self-love,
loving of yourself.
And if you recognize that youare a complete person, then
(11:38):
you're ready for reclaiming yournature, which is bliss.
But I didn't know any of that.
So I first went thinking I wasbeing quite the rebel by going
as a solo and uh deciding I amnot here to hook up, meet
anybody.
I did have the sexual sense thatI had a sexual overtone to it,
(12:00):
and I am just going to be hereas an act of love for myself,
and then by accident, I ended upthere for all the right reasons.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
I love that.
I think that's that's where I'mlike, well, the divine conspired
with you, orchestrated things toput those breadcrumbs in front
of you to lead you right whereyou needed to be.
SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:22):
But I don't think we really get gotten much of a
sense of what tantra means ormeans to me.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:31):
Because I think there's a lot of different
meanings.
When someone comes to me andsays, one of you came to me and
said, What is tantra?
I would, or I practice tantra, Iwould have no idea what they
were talking about, even thoughI study tantra.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Right, right.
And I think that's part of, Idon't know if it's necessarily a
problem, but it's definitelylike there isn't one set
definition.
And there's so much diversityand and variety, and um it can
get kind of confusing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
So why don't we do a little thing where I sort of go
over what I think tantra is, andyou go over then what you
studied?
Because I know we've studiedslightly different things, and
then how we're coming togetherto practice it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
Yeah, I like it.
Let's do that.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
All right.
So tantra, uh, the tantra Istudy is considered a branch of
what's called neo-tantra, tantrathat's really hasn't existed
since the 19th century, it'sonly existed since the 1970s.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
And like I said, it comes from the teachings of a
woman named Margot Anand whowrote the art of sexual ecstasy
in 1989.
But of course, tantra roots inIndia and Nepal, way back in
from the 8th to the 11thcenturies AD.
But so there are people whopractice what they call
traditional tantra.
(13:56):
And I would argue there mightnot really be such a coherent
thing as traditional tantra.
Others would disagree.
There's a whole online group youcan go to.
There are books, many bookswritten about traditional
tantra.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
But the word tantra comes from a Sanskrit word that
means to weave, and it soundsreally spiritual and religious,
but really what they meant wasthat it was written, there were
things that were written down.
And then in the 19th century,English scholars in India,
British scholars, found thesetexts and they called them
(14:30):
tantras because they werewritten down, and they seem to
have some things in common.
And among them, a very tinyfraction of those texts talked
about sexuality, and otherstalked about other things that
were more rebellious, eatingmeat, or trying different
practices to get enlightenmentbecause people were not in the
(14:53):
Brahmin class, the Brahmin classwas the highest class, and those
were the people who were theonly ones thought to be able to
reach enlightenment, and therewere people who are resisting
that.
So a lot of these tantra attacksare people trying to find other
practices to come into thatenlightenment, but they're not
(15:15):
necessarily coherent, there'snot like a religious point of
view to them.
You know, there's a lot of youneed a guru for this, you need
to do this practice here, thispractice there.
Another one might say somethingcompletely different.
Um so, and then there wasn'treally a practice, it just kept
(15:35):
going, right?
There wasn't some people callingthemselves, we practice tantra
since the 800s, because that theword didn't it really exist to
describe it until the 19thcentury.
So people practicing tantra arereally the traditional tantra,
are those who are practicingwhat they take from the
traditions that come out ofreading those old texts.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Yeah.
And typically finding like theirown guru and some lineage,
right?
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (16:03):
Correct.
And that and in the past thattended to be still
male-centered.
unknown (16:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
There is a story of a Buddha, you know, named uh
Padma Sambava, who took a uhconsort named Yeshit Soigal, and
and uh he with her, it said thatthrough their sexual union she
danced in the sky, and thatreally impressed um Margot
Anand.
And so she called her lineagesky dancing, and that's the
(16:31):
lineage I follow, but it's stilla newer practice, yeah.
And that newer practice is is isa fusion of Western Jungian
psychology, other Westernpractices, other eastern
practices, and also justMargot's generally own
experience of what she feltfound worked.
SPEAKER_03 (16:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
And so through experiment and experiment and
experiment, she found a methodthat helped raise our energy up
from the earth up through ourcrown, bringing our sexual
energy up into a spiritual placeand a blissful place.
So she called, she said that ournature is bliss, that if we do
(17:15):
these practices, we can beecstatic pretty much most of the
time.
Uh, and once you're ecstatic andin that place, you can even
manifest things and do magic.
And so I come from a lineagethat is about integrating sexual
energy with our spirit spirit,you know, the entire chakra
(17:37):
system and moving that energyalways from the ground up so
that we can then connectoutward, but then still come
back to the ground.
So it's a body spirit practice.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
You know, I'm I'm kind of giggling over here is
because so everyone who'slistening to this probably knows
that I've been doing Reikiforever.
And I was always kind of a rebeland did things out of the box.
Reiki?
Yes, I do Reiki for like a longtime, right?
So, but one of the things thatlike one of the first things I
(18:08):
broke the rules on was you'resupposed to work, do Reiki head
down.
And I was like, no, no, no, itneeds to be root up, and we're
gonna use the chakras and we'regonna move the energy from the
root up.
And so even when I would beteaching Reiki, I would teach
them like, this is the wayyou're quote unquote supposed to
do it.
This is what I find works betterfor a lot of people.
(18:31):
And I um I find that that youcan energy is energy, is energy.
It doesn't matter if it's Reikienergy or sexual energy or earth
energy or divine energy, likeit's all energy.
And I think for me, the tantrapractice is really about
recognizing that energy withinus and all around us and how do
we move it.
(18:52):
And I I think for me, it's likeI've I already knew how to move
energy within me from my Rickybackground, which made just this
lens of this practice even moreexpressive or more easy easy to
like, oh, I I know how to dothis.
(19:15):
Like, and it's been really umfun to bring it into more of a
movement.
You know, I think that there'sbeen some of the practices that
that I've been introducedthrough with Tantra, that I've
been like, oh, I've done thispractice for years, but now I'm
doing it with movement.
(19:35):
Now I'm doing it with sound, nowI'm doing it with breath.
That was different than just mytraditional, very uh, I don't
know, it feels very it feelsvery masculine to like hold your
body still, and we're gonna likebring energy from above in, you
know, it's just and then we'relike flip it on its head, it
(19:57):
feels much more feminine andflowing and moving and sounding,
and that can be a little bitmore uh and I don't know,
intuitive and wild.
And I I think that's what I loveabout around Tantra, but that
doesn't necessarily explain.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
So I want to ask you a question, and I know we're we
want to get to what what tantrais for you and what your
definition is, but but I butwhat I heard you say was uh
traditionally Reiki is a verymasculine energy.
If anything, it's bringing thespirit down into your body,
right?
It's like the spirit is thepureness that your body needs to
(20:35):
contain it.
And and uh as I understand it,you do shamanic Reiki, which is
uh more wild and and feminine.
So would you say shamanic Reikiin the sense it's like a
tantric?
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah, it can be.
And I think the oftentimes wehear Reiki in and of itself
being the energy is feminine,but we need this masculine
practice to make us disciplinedand hold still and have your
hands in a certain way, and likeall these the the rules feel
very masculine in Reiki, right?
(21:07):
But the energy itself, with allenergy, you're gonna get both,
right?
I mean, I don't I would say Idon't think tantra energy or
Reiki energy is just masculineor feminine.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
Like I just I don't think it has yeah, we wouldn't
even call it tantric energy,right?
Right sexual energy.
Tantra is that union of of Shivaand Shakti that we have within
us.
So Shiva being traditionally themasculine energy, Shakti, the
feminine, or let's not sayenergy, this masculine and the
(21:41):
feminine.
And energy is Shakti.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
And Shiva is the can is the vessel, the container,
the holder of the energy.
And a lot of what we're doing inTantra is is working with having
both of those feel it, you know,in harmony within us, even as
we're playing different roleswith each other.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Right.
And so there's like love thatlens.
And right.
And so some of what I've studiedis that like you have these two
internal snakes, and one ismasculine, one is feminine, and
there's two, and one's Ida andone's pingola, and they swirl
through your chakras and come upto your third eye until they
like open and you getenvisionings, right?
And I'm like, that's that's fun,that feels good, right?
(22:27):
And how do you get them toawaken from with you within you,
right?
Like, and how do we move thatenergy?
So I um I and I think that'swhere it's like, I don't know if
there's necessarily a I don'tthink there needs to be a right
or wrong as long as people arefeeling it.
Right.
I think the more it feels moreimportant to understand that we
(22:50):
can have this ecstatic lifestyleor this tuning into our full
selves and know that we have thecapacity to be liberated in this
way.
That's what it feels like.
Is that uh your energy, yourconnection, your it's your
responsibility to be able toflow and move and cultivate that
(23:14):
energy flow within you.
And that's what feels reallygood.
SPEAKER_02 (23:19):
It does.
So, what is tantra to you andmaybe a little of your journey?
SPEAKER_01 (23:25):
Okay.
Um, tantra to me feels like anembodied practice, and I think
I've come to this and and verymuch of kind of what I explained
earlier.
Well, it's not that and it's notthat, and it's not that.
And that's how I kind of came towhat it is for me, because I've
been in the the very more of aBuddhist background with Reiki
(23:49):
and going on these Japanpilgrimages and and learning how
to meditate their way and how todo Zen meditation, how to do,
how to do these practices totranscend.
And it feels like you're leavingthe body to experience
enlightenment, experienceSatory.
(24:10):
And I just got to a point in myown practice of going, well, so
what?
We we chose to come here.
Like my belief is that we choseto come here in this body to
have these experiences.
Why am I trying to escape it?
So I've come to Tantra and theunderstanding that this is going
to allow me to fully experiencethe fullness of life and to live
(24:35):
ecstatically in that and reallybe able to utilize our physical
body containers to feel thefullness of life and feel
everything in a more heightenedway.
And that's not like I could seethe my Buddhist counterparts
going, well, that's going toincrease suffering.
And I'm like, it increases joy,it increases pleasure, it
(24:57):
increases uh love, right?
It increases this availabilityto really feel it all.
And to me, that's really theessence of what tantra is for
me, is like, if I can know howto tap into this energy flow,
one, it it is very enlighteningto where things are stuck in
(25:19):
your body.
Like I know that, and when Ifirst started practicing, I
could feel where the energycould move up to, and then get
like you could reach somethingand go, oh, there's something
there.
And it was we were using theframework of the chakras, which
I was very familiar with, andgoing, Oh, there's there's grief
in my heart.
And so now I can move thatenergy, and I'm gonna have this
(25:40):
huge emotional uh experience torelease that stagnant energy
that was there that hadn't had achance to move and be processed,
right?
Like it's not that I'm denying,not like I'm not shoving away
and not looking at my grief.
It's just you might not even beaware that your body is still
holding on to it.
(26:00):
So you're allowing your body torecognize where things are
flowing with ease and wherethings are getting stuck.
SPEAKER_02 (26:07):
Does that happen to you recently?
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
I feel like I blow through things really easily at
this point.
But yeah, I mean, I think that'sso true.
Like when there's big, heavyemotions and you are available
for them, you get a fully, youget to fully express what how
how they feel and what they needto move through in a really uh
(26:31):
it feels like a really potentway, but it's it's like emotions
get all swirled together.
Like you can move from ecstaticbliss and grief and pain and
whatever is showing up for you,and it's all available to just
move.
And I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
So tantra for you is an embodied practice that moves
energy, gets through blocks,allows it, allows you to be
integrated and connected.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
And is there anything like I know you study a
different tradition?
And sure.
Do you want to talk about that?
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Yeah, I totally can.
I think that's where you know Iyou have to like from my
tradition, it's like you have toenjoy mythology.
You have to to be willing tocreate stories around the myths
and really understand mythologybecause it oftentimes comes back
to Egyptian stories of Isis andOsiris and their story, or Jesus
(27:33):
and Mary Magdalene, or likethese prototypes of the sacred
union or the beloved, or youknow, these relationships,
recognizing that within each ofus we have both these energies
of feminine and masculine.
And how are we cultivating thatwithin?
And then how do we match thatwith a partner who's also doing
(27:55):
the work?
And how in that union you canhave bliss together, have more
of an experience of oneness, notonly with each other, but with a
divine essence.
SPEAKER_02 (28:09):
So would you say it's fairer?
It's partially aboutrelationship with yourself,
partially about relationshipwith each other through those
relationships, relationship withthe divine.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:20):
So it's like different prototypes.
So Egyptian, Middle Eastern sortof ones is where it rooted in,
but they'd be open to Shiva andShakti and Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
Right?
It's it's all about like reallyunderstanding the myths and what
these stories were.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
So this is probably different from what other people
do with tantra.
I know it is, right?
Like there are some people forwhom sexuality has almost
nothing to do with tantra, orit's just a simply spiritual
experience.
SPEAKER_03 (28:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
Right.
Right.
And then there are other tantrasthat are about completely about
learning sexual union and a lotless about how that connects to
divinity, more aboutinterpersonal connection.
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:03):
So that's probably where we got the couples idea.
SPEAKER_01 (29:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (29:06):
And then there are all kinds of tantras in between.
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
There's all kinds of tantras in between.
And I think it's like working onyourself first, like really
understanding and coming to aplace of self-love is feels for
me, it always feels like thefirst step, like really
recognizing the energy withinyou and being able to willing to
look at what's there, what'sgetting in the way.
(29:30):
How are you cultivating your ownflow and enjoyment with life?
So it could just be go hoohooping outside or floating the
river or whatever it is, likewhatever brings you joy.
Like it's saying yes to thataspect of yourself that I think
society oftentimes, because ofthe productivity has been pushed
(29:53):
and programmed into us.
How do we say yes to those basicpleasures of?
Life enjoying the freaking pieceof cake and not worrying about
how many calories are in it, orwhatever it may be, like just
fully indulging in our senses.
It's a sensory experience.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Sensory.
So, in that sense, again, anembodied experience.
So, I what I heard was a lot ofagreement, really, right?
That there's that there arethese different aspects within
us.
Some of them are wild andenergetic, some of them are
maybe more containing andspace-holding, you know,
masculine and feminine for lackof a better word, but that all
(30:34):
exists within us, whatevergender or gender binary or
whatever we are, yep.
All of that exists.
An embodied experience of movingenergy for fuller integration
and ultimately for greaterenjoyment of the life that we're
living now, right?
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
Yes.
I'm not trying to escapeanything.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
To be feel more alive.
And if you happen to escape,like whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (31:00):
If it's gonna be a moment of escape, I'll take it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:04):
But that can't be the focus of your life because
then that becomes um a stressfulgoal-oriented thing.
The goal is the goal is tosimply be right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
I think that's it.
Like I'm I I think um if we ifwe as a society could take out
goals, like I get that we wantto keep your goal.
I don't know.
I just feel like God, I mean,whether it is a couple coming,
going to the bedroom with thegoal of like, I have to have an
orgasm, or it's I'm going towork and I need to make I need
(31:39):
to hit this sales quota, or youknow, like there's this always
this push.
And what if we found the flowwith divine?
What if we found the the divinewithin us and found our own
internal flow?
What what if what if it wasabout alignment?
Like, how are things lining upfor me?
Like, I think it's like the wayyou came to tantric a goal,
(31:59):
right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:59):
In a sense that, but it's a shifting of the goal.
Instead of that goal beingsomething outside of us, I want
to be rich, I want to have Iwant to have amazing orgasms, I
want to have um the whatever itis, right?
If the goal simply is I want tobe true to my nature, I want to
(32:20):
be connected.
SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
Yeah, I think that's it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:22):
That's connected, then all the other stuff becomes
irrelevant.
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Right.
Well, and I think that's how wewere born to be.
We are born to be connected, weare born to be alive in the
fullness of who we are.
We were born to utilize oursenses and not deny them, right?
Like if I'm like to use I didn'tlike that, I like to use our
senses.
It's good, all very yummy,right?
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
We're animals after all, right?
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Yeah, not just animals, but not yeah, and I
think that's it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:56):
Like, where that and it's like where is the the and
so how do we how do we move thisenergy?
I think if tantra is aboutmoving it, does tantra just say,
yeah, it's just about moving it?
Are there like any tools or ohyeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (33:12):
And so I know and leading question.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
I think of yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
I know what I think about uh well, and I know from
the Sky Dancing Institute, likeit's very clear that that you
have these three keys to thistantric.
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Three keys, three keys.
SPEAKER_01 (33:27):
How many did I say?
SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
Yes, you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:29):
Okay, three.
SPEAKER_02 (33:30):
You got it right.
I got it gonna like it.
Three keys, three keys.
It's three excellententhusiastic.
SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
These are good ones.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
Yeah, I'm using my one of them, using one of the
keys, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Sound, sound sound is a really prominent one, and
that that's one people strugglewith exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (33:47):
I'm not always in the bedroom, sometimes,
sometimes not, but in general,that's one I think people are
struggling with, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
Yes, and well, and just recognizing how am I
speaking my truth?
Am I talking up?
Do I am I suppressing who I am?
Like so much of your voice isreflective of your solar plexus
and like being able to reallyaccept this is who I am, this is
what I sound like, this is thesound I want to make.
(34:18):
How do I want to communicate myneeds, desires, and wants?
Like all of that is showing upbecause you it's the expressions
of desires, diaphragm, huh?
SPEAKER_02 (34:28):
And right in the solar plexus, right?
But but it's I think not evenjust the metaphorical stuff,
literally allowing your voice togo moves your body and moves
hormones in your body, moves allkinds of stuff, and and and taps
into it in a way that if you'rerestricting that voice, yeah,
(34:49):
that you're not getting into.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:53):
So sound sound.
What are the other two keys?
So I think one that peopleprobably are more into in
spiritual communities is breath,right?
Yeah.
Breath work.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Everyone's doing everyone's really into breath
jokes, like activate the DMT inyour lungs.
You're gonna have these amazingpsychedelic natural experiences.
And I'm like, yeah, it's true.
It's true, it's true.
It's true, absolutely, and and Ithink I think it's so popular
right now for a reason.
I think people are looking for away to have these, I don't know,
(35:30):
big experiences, psychedelicexperiences, these like powerful
embodied experiences that theyknow that they can tap into
without taking a substance.
SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
So, how many people do you think are connecting
their breath to their sexualcore and using that to move
their energy?
SPEAKER_01 (35:47):
I don't think they are.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Like well, they probably are, right?
But are they aware that that'sthe process that there is a
process?
I think that's it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Right.
So, like when we go into uh likea Win-hof breathing, like, yeah,
you're activating those lungs,you're breathing in a way to
really kick in a very quickbreath.
But if we knew where we werepulling energy from, up from the
earth and moving it into thebody, like I'm like you're
bringing it up and through, thenyou're you really are going to
(36:18):
enhance the process.
And I think that's where thatenergetic awareness comes in.
Like you can do breath work andhave really phenomenal
experiences with breath work orjust allowing your internal
voice to quiet down becauseyou're focusing on the breath.
Like all of those things arereally positive.
SPEAKER_02 (36:34):
But if we knew that we could also bring in this
other element of breath work toenhance uh our sexual ecstasy, I
I would say um it's even moreimportant and in the modern
context, because for how manyhundreds, maybe thousands of
(36:54):
years has our sexuality beenrepressed, especially for women,
right?
But even for men, because Idon't think men are having
anything near the kind of sexualecstasy that they could be
having, because the way men andmen have sort of enforced away
of having sex has not been umhealthy or good, certainly not
(37:17):
for women who are being abusedand barely we barely understand
female anatomy, right?
And it's the 21st century sexualanatomy.
Um, but men also because ofrepression around fears of
homosexuality, fears of ofletting feminine energy into
(37:38):
their into their being.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Yeah, they've got to be a man and do it this way and
dominate.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
So because that's been so repressed, right?
It's been procreative ornothing, um, or it has been just
for the man's pleasure, and Iwould argue only for a very
limited kind of pleasure.
SPEAKER_03 (37:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (37:59):
We're that's the part of us that's been treated
as sort of either naughty or orso different that we we ignore
it, right?
So it almost needs, to me, inthe modern context, extra
attention to bring that in.
So if all the chakras are equal,but they're not all equally out
of balance, some are more out ofbalance than others.
(38:21):
So whether you consider that inyour sacral as um most people
do, or in the root, as in thesky dancing tradition, it really
doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (38:29):
Wherever that is for you, that's probably out of
balance.
SPEAKER_01 (38:33):
Yeah, and I would say that's for most people.
Like, I think that's why for inmy school at Moonrising and
Shamanic Institute, we so put anemphasis on the lower three
chakras.
And this one, so when I came toTantra, I was like, oh, this
just fits right into my beliefsand values already.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
So breath work, breath moving that, moving that,
combining with sound evenbetter.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yeah.
Right.
We can really get into when onthat exhale, what sound wants to
come out and and allowing it to.
Like I think so much of it isthis surrendering into allowing
the body to sound and breatheand then move the way it desires
(39:23):
to.
SPEAKER_02 (39:25):
Would you say going back to sound that there's a
resistance a bit to sound, andwe can talk about it more, but
it resists to sound not justbecause we're making it, but
because we live in such a loudsociety that people are seeking
a lot of quiet.
Like they want that stillmeditation, that peaceful place.
Like one of the biggest thingsI've heard in workshops
(39:48):
complaints is they can't dealwith how much noise is
happening.
Like the noise is interruptingtheir internal process that
someone else is making.
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
Oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (39:58):
Like maybe for a different podcast, but yeah, I'm
like, I'm like, that's that'sinteresting.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
And I I mean, I've been, I mean, at the retreat
that I was at with all women, wewere not doing any stimulative
touch.
We were in our own breathworkpractice, we were all encouraged
to move and make sound on ourown mats, and we were all
having, you know, orgasms andsounds and all these things.
(40:26):
And I don't think any of us werecomplaining.
SPEAKER_02 (40:29):
But I so what if what if a man were in that room
having very orgasmic sounds in aroom of women?
SPEAKER_01 (40:35):
See, and I think I don't know if maybe is that the
dynamic?
I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02 (40:39):
I'm just wondering because I I know as a man I'm
often feeling like in for goodreason that there's a level of
suspicion on me as a man, as aspiritual practitioner, right,
because of the obvious abusesthat a lot of men have had on
women, and also just men inother in the lives of many
(41:01):
women.
So you come in and I come inextra aware that that there
might be something, you know,scary and dangerous about me as
a man, especially if I'm makingloud noises.
SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
Right.
See, and I have been in thatsituation yet.
And I and I think there's a goodpoint.
I think we've had a lot ofconversations where it's like,
well, I don't know if I'd becomfortable doing this practice
if there were men around, right?
Like I think there's a lot ofcoming to finding that place of
(41:36):
what's my yeses and what's myno's, and what am I comfortable
with and what I'm not, and whereare those growth edges that I'm
willing to explore, and where amI just downright like that's a
boundary.
And I think that's one of thereasons why I have so
appreciated the Sky DancingInstitute's ethics, right?
(41:56):
Because it really does honorthose things and are in in a
really great way.
Like that's what I keep comingback to.
I'm like, I ever all the storiesI hear from your retreats, your
trainings, all the things thatyou've participated in, is like
that's a really foundationalhonored.
SPEAKER_03 (42:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (42:14):
And I think that's really needed so that if women
are in this co-gendered ormultigendered space, your one,
your voice is heard andrespected, and and you can find
where you're still comfortable.
SPEAKER_02 (42:31):
Yeah, I would agree.
I would I obviously I'm biasedas a sky dancing participant,
but one of the things that drawsme into it are the ethical
standards of the group and uhsky dancing tantra USA.
Just look it up on Google, skydancing tantra.org or dot com.
I don't remember.
But um, but but among thosethings is one, a clear idea of
(42:55):
consent, clear idea ofboundaries, prospective
boundaries, and yeah, uh andjust general, you know, ethics
around instructors not havingrelationships with students,
right?
You know, things like that,which are very dangerous in the
uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
I knew that I was like, okay, if I want to date
you, if I want to be with you, Ineed to start right now because
you've got all these stance forworkshops.
SPEAKER_02 (43:20):
You're taking a workshop with that, yeah, but
not for six months.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Yeah, I recognize that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Well, I'm glad you uh made yourself available in
time.
But but we've gone through twoof the keys.
There's one other key.
SPEAKER_01 (43:42):
Movement.
Movement, movement, and I thinkI I I think this goes to also
what's really popular right nowis that somatic therapy.
You know, it's it's reallyrecognizing that the body keeps
the score, the body holds thetrauma, the body is also this
really amazing, beautiful thingthat can move energy.
(44:03):
So when you you combined freedomof movement, feeling liberated
and moving your body however itwants to without judgment, and
really a form of self-love tosay, yeah, I can move this way.
And it for any for whetheryou're dancing alone or you're
with a partner, it doesn'treally matter.
It's like this having this uhacceptance that movement is
(44:25):
going to be supportive to thatenergy flow.
SPEAKER_02 (44:28):
Yeah, I I think movement's absolutely vital.
Like if we want growth in ourlives, then we have to be able
to break patterns.
If we're just thinking about it,yeah, we can think of, oh, I
should do this, I should dothat.
But if we aren't actually makingour body do those things, our
body are a collection of habits,we have to break those habits.
(44:52):
So making sounds you're notnormally making, breathing in
ways you're not normallybreathing, and moving in ways
you're not normally moving, akadance.
Yeah, but but we can also bemoving through the breath work.
We can just as we're sounding,we can allow a certain movement.
Right.
We can, but also just dancing.
(45:13):
And then in dancing, we caninvite breath in while we're
dancing.
We can invite sound in whilewe're dancing, right?
So we can invite the other keysinto other things that we're
doing.
But even just practicing one ofthose keys can be really
powerful.
Powerful towards rewiringyourself and allowing the
channels to open up forintegration.
SPEAKER_01 (45:36):
Yeah.
I just, I mean, part of it'slike I'm right now, yeah, I'm
kind of totally in love with thepractice and learning because it
makes it makes a lot of sensewith how our society's been
repressed and movement sound.
Right.
And we're giving encouragementand to to do the things that
(45:59):
feel good.
And it's not like, I mean,there's some but they might feel
uncomfortable.
Right.
I was gonna say, like some oflike the traditional tantra,
it's like hold this position andput your tongue on your roof of
your mouth like this and squeezeyour face or whatever it may be.
And that might be stillconsidered a tantric practice,
but I think it's going back to alot of that traditional was it
(46:22):
was experimental and trying tofigure out what worked.
Like I think that when I thinkabout traditional, I want to
always remember these were agroup of people that were trying
to find different avenues ofembodiment, of ecstasy, of
connecting with the divine.
SPEAKER_02 (46:38):
There's all kinds of practices that can work.
And if it works for you, do it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (46:42):
What I like about my tradition is I feel like it's
it's still a lot of work, butit's it's simplified.
But it is meant to be somewhatuncomfortable, right?
Right.
How do we find so if it'saliveness we're wanting, I think
I feel most alive when I'm alsocalm in that align of aliveness.
How do I get to that calm space?
(47:04):
Well, I've got to expand mycomfort zone.
I can't expand my comfort zoneunless I'm doing things that are
in some senses uncomfortable,right?
SPEAKER_01 (47:13):
But then I think they get more uncomfortable over
time, or you build trust withthe person that you're doing
these practices with.
SPEAKER_02 (47:20):
Like our sex life?
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
Like our sex life.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, it could be likeone of your group frames, like,
yeah, I don't want to get nakedin front of people, and now it's
like, yeah, now it's not a bigdeal.
Right.
And then, but there is thatpiece of like when you when you
have conversations from the verystart of what's your fears,
desires, and boundaries?
Let's talk about all thesethings on a regular basis, it
(47:45):
makes it so much easier to gointo a bedroom space of going,
I'm really fully honored andbeing free in all of these three
to these three keys, right?
SPEAKER_02 (47:55):
Yes.
And when you throw in some ofthe other practices we have
around sacred communication, howto listen to each other, how to
state our desires, our fears,and our boundaries.
Again, giving up goalorientation, just being in the
moment with the person, thenbringing in breath, movement,
and sound.
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
And it's uh so sweet and so yummy.
Right.
And the funny thing is, then allthe weird performance stuff
tends to actually go prettywell, also.
unknown (48:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (48:27):
But if it doesn't, it doesn't.
It's not that important, but itusually does.
SPEAKER_01 (48:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (48:32):
In a way that it doesn't when you're all stressed
out all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
Right.
And I think there's, you know, Ican speak for myself as a woman.
It's like the more I can justfully be in my body and not in
the like listening to the voice,the more I can do that and just
really recognize and give myselfthe freedom to to move, to make
sound, to, to breathe in a waythat I know is going to
(48:59):
encourage the energy flow.
Like then it can just be thisbeautiful multi-orgasmic, yummy
experience.
And sometimes, yeah, it's stillgonna bring up emotions that can
be really, really uh expressiveand knowing that I'm with you
(49:19):
where it's safe to do that.
Right.
And so I feel like I can trulybe all of me and all the
expressions of me because wehave that foundation.
SPEAKER_02 (49:30):
Yeah.
And I do credit a lot of mytraining and self-work for
preparing me for a relationshipwith you, which has been
delicious.
I know that we want to talkabout what's how we're gonna
bring some of these practices tothe community and the online
(49:54):
community and so forth.
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
Absolutely.
So this Wednesday, October 22ndat 7 to 8 p.m.
Mountain Time, that's 6 Pacificor 9 p.m.
Eastern, we're gonna have a freeonline webinar on sacred space
and the three keys to creating asacred sex life.
So we're gonna be going throughthose three foundational keys of
(50:16):
tantra, breath, movement, andsound on a much deeper level and
understanding how to create thatsacred space as a container for
intimacy, healing, and eroticawakening.
So this is directed towardspeople who are solos or people
who are partnered.
Either way, this is gonna be agreat way to come to understand
(50:38):
this sacred practice and bereally present and trust in this
deep energetic connection withyourself and potentially a
partner.
And then we're gonna go into ourfive-week intro to Tantra
Masterclass, Awakening Alivenessthrough the Tantric Arts of
Breath, movement and sound,starting November 5th and with
(51:00):
office hours on November 26th toavoid the week of travel for
many folks during Thanksgiving.
And then we'll have two moreclasses after that, ending on
December 10th.
And so they're gonna be onWednesday nights.
And I'm really excited.
So, week one, we're gonna havetraining on the sacred
(51:22):
communication and how to createa sacred bubble, do heart
salutations.
Uh, and I just feel like if youknow the premise of that, oh my
gosh, it works in every area.
We just did one from BozemanCo-housing of like creating
sacred space and really beingable to share from your heart
and have these vulnerable,intimate moments with anyone.
SPEAKER_02 (51:42):
So it doesn't matter if it's it doesn't have to do
with sex at all, or it could bebasically it's a communication
tool that could be used in amore tantric context, or it
could be used in less tantriccontext.
Exactly.
But it's a beautiful tool forcommunication.
SPEAKER_01 (51:58):
And so then we're gonna move through the next
three weeks, doing one key anight.
So movement, breath, and sound.
And then we're gonna do theanother class on doing what is
sacred sexuality and how do weenhance that experience.
So these are gonna be two hourclasses.
So we'd love to have you joinus.
You're gonna find all of themasterclass information on my
(52:23):
website at ummoonrisinginstitute.com.
And just go over to the eventspage and you're gonna find the
links for all of these thingsover there, whether it's date
night, whether it's the webinar,whether it's the master class.
SPEAKER_02 (52:36):
Or just DM Kristen Renee.
She will be happy to tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
I'm used to getting DMs all day long.
So feel free to uh reach out tome.
SPEAKER_02 (52:45):
And feel free to friend me.
I'm I'm Jim McDonald, M A C D ON A L D on Facebook.
And feel free to reach out tome.
And if you have questions aboutTantra or Chakra dance, if that
interests you, feel free to askme about that or uh, I guess
anything else.
SPEAKER_01 (53:04):
Thanks so much for listening.
And until next time, may youawaken to the whispers of wisdom
rising from within.
Take care, everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
Thanks for tuning in to today's show.
The Wisdom Rising Podcast issponsored by Moonrising Shamanic
Institute.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe to the show on
your favorite podcasting app andbe the first to know when we
release a new episode.
You can find us on Instagram,Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok at
(53:39):
Moonrising Institute or visitour website,
MoonrisingInstitute.com, tolearn more about our mission and
find future opportunities toconnect with our community of
shamanic mystics.
Once again, thank you forsharing space with us today.
And until next time, may youawaken to the whispers of wisdom
rising from within.
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