February 19, 2025 • 50 mins
Learn about stigmata and exorcisms with an in-depth conversation with historian Kristof Smeyers, a leading expert on the history of science, religion, and magic during the 19th and 20th centuries. The discussion begins with Kristof's extensive research on stigmata, exploring the complex phenomenon of the wounds of Christ appearing on people's bodies. Kristof delves into notable historical cases, such as those of medieval stigmatics including St. Francis of Assisi, and contrasts them with lesser-known instances in Britain and Ireland in the 19th and 20th centuries. As the conversation progresses, Kristof discusses the varying perceptions and practices of exorcism among priests and laypeople, and the role of the church in both supporting and quietly adapting to alternative exorcism methods. Kristof recounts historical cases of exorcisms, including tragic instances.
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(00:00):
So when you look at clerical Diaries about these types of
exorcisms, they there are several Belgian priests who
complain about being plagued at night by Satan who has
momentarily left the body of thepossessed to come scare them
away from the situation. That kind of thing happens less
with other demons. I think the presence of Satan in
(00:23):
that regard is also that it it becomes it tends to become a a
high profile case more quickly. Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast,
where we discuss the history of witchcraft, magic and the
supernatural. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we have an important
discussion with author and historian Christophe Smares, who
is joining us from Belgium. Christophe specializes in the
(00:45):
history of science, religion, and magic in the 19th and 20th
centuries, with a focus on knowledge production about the
cult and the supernatural. He presented his specialized
research on stigmata and exorcisms at the 2024 Magic and
Witchcraft Conference in York, which Josh and I attended.
His historical analysis providesimportant context and insight
(01:07):
that you get to experience today.
So let's welcome Christoph Smares to the podcast.
Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast. We were so happy to meet you at
the Magic and Witchcraft Conference in York.
Can you introduce yourself and share about your expertise in
your recent research and writing?
(01:27):
Hi and well, thanks for the invitation as well.
I'm Christophe Smaes. I'm a historian in Belgium and I
work primarily on the history ofscience, religion and magic in
the 19th and the 20th centuries.What should we know about
Belgium? The question I tend to ask is
what do people actually know about Belgium, which is a tricky
(01:49):
one sometimes. Well, the capital is Brussels,
which is the center of all of the institutional side of the
European Union. I suppose it's also our capital.
It's a tiny country somewhere between France and Germany, with
a very rich history in, especially when it comes to the
(02:10):
history of witchcraft. I'm really excited to talk to
you about your expertise today because you your work is in a
later century than a lot of whatwe've talked about.
So I'm expecting to learn a lot.I thought maybe we would start
by learning about stigmata and its complexities.
(02:30):
Sure. So a couple of years ago I
started doing my PhD on the recent history of stigmata.
So the wounds of Christ on people's mortal living bodies in
Britain and Ireland. And it was part of a bigger
project that looked at stigmata across Europe in the 19th and
the 20th centuries. And that project was
(02:52):
international, but it had a verystrong emphasis on Catholic
countries or countries that werepredominantly Catholic, like
Italy, Spain, also Belgium as a very Catholic country.
And I thought maybe it's more interesting to go look for it in
places that you wouldn't expect a phenomenon like that to appear
so often. I looked at Britain and in the
second instance also at Ireland,places with a very complicated
(03:16):
religious landscape, very multifaceted, a lot of different
smaller Christian groups flying or wealth of believers for for
devotees, especially in the 19thand the 20th centuries.
And it turned out that stigmata appeared not just among English
Catholics or Irish Catholics. It wasn't a typically Irish
(03:36):
Catholic phenomenon, for example, but so-called rational
Anglicans were also experiencingprofoundly bedazzling physical
phenomena on their own bodies, and they didn't always know what
to do with it or what it meant. And that in itself was
interesting enough to write a whole book about.
And also because it says so muchabout how religion was
(03:58):
experienced in that period amongso many different people in
different ways. I don't your work is in more
recent centuries, 19th and 20th centuries yet, but how old is
the phenomenon of stigmata? Has it been around since well
before the that time period or is it pretty new?
(04:22):
Well, the first one was was Christ himself, I suppose, when
he went, when he was crucified. But the first person we tend to
call a stigmatic is Saint Francis of Assisi in the 13th
century, who climbs a mountain and is visited by an Angel who
he says in a vision, shoots angelic rays at his body that
hit him in the palms of his hands and his feet.
(04:44):
Well, it's this, his side. So he gets the five wounds of
Christ and he goes through Christ's suffering with Christ,
and that becomes that. He sets the template, I suppose,
for the centuries after. But predominantly when you look
at histories of these types of things, we look, we think of it
as a medieval phenomenon, something that was very
phenomenon that was typical of avery bodily or embodied sense of
(05:08):
religion that dies out as people.
That's the, you know, the dominant narrative.
As people become more rational and more scientific in their
thinking, these types of things disappear.
And that doesn't turn out to be the case at all.
So the 19th and 20th centuries and arguably still nowadays are
really the golden era of astronomenon like stigmat.
(05:29):
You also see it in the way that people talk about it in the 19th
century, mostly skeptics and critics.
By linking phenomena like that to early modern witchcraft, for
example, they're just saying it's it's the next demonic thing
in a different guise, or it's another manifestation of
superstition and credulity, justlike just like in the early
(05:51):
modern period. And you mentioned his suffering
with Christ is does it always gohand in hand with suffering?
Among Catholic, definitely. What I found in Britain,
especially among non Catholics, is that there could be a variety
of different things. In the 1830s there was a prophet
(06:11):
in Canterbury, so in the South East of England, who claimed he
was Christ reborn and he had a big beard and he dressed in
velvet and Saturn. But he also had the wounds of
Christ and he didn't seem to suffer much.
He wrote a lot about what he went through and how he was
going to organize Judgement Day,I suppose.
(06:33):
But he wasn't bed bound like so many stigmatics were.
He actually was he. He claimed to be super strong,
so he carried while his hands were bleeding with the wounds of
Christ. He lifted a barrel of beer above
his head as a feat of strength of supernatural strength.
So that's a very nothing outlierstatistically for how people
(06:54):
with stigmata tended to behave. And you find them more in
Britain than elsewhere, I think.Oh really?
Are there like certain time periods when stigmata is more
common? There's certain situations that
might happen societally or anything that influence the
appearance of stigmatas. That's a very difficult question
(07:16):
to answer because you can see itappear more or it becomes more
visible in certain time periods,but it's difficult to say what
is correlation and causation in that regard.
You know that at some points in the 19th century, the Catholic
churches or feels it's in the defense or it's being attacked
by rationalists, by later, by Darwin, by science, and it feels
(07:39):
the need to profile itself in a different way.
And then you sometimes see a manifestation of people with
stigma more visibly than before.It's difficult to link to say
that that link is so clear cut to me, but it is there in some
way. You mentioned about how modern
(07:59):
writing reveals this perspectiveof its ancientness, just like
how we perceive how some perceived magics life too.
And we know from all the interviewing we've done in
reading and talking that right now, you know, witch hunts are
(08:21):
very active because of lots of beliefs and fear of evil magic.
And so it's also an era where, hey, it's actually very alive in
people's minds and affecting their behaviors.
And media has played a lot of role in that, and academics
(08:42):
writing and everybody writing. But how much of A role have
Newfest reports played in developing the popular belief
about stigmata, including that it's not necessarily something
happening now? Huge.
I think it's the very short answer to that, and that's part
of the reason why we looked at the 19th and the 20th centuries
to begin with. It's the period when the press
(09:04):
becomes popular, becomes cheap. When you go and you have the
development of the yellow press,as they call it.
So cheap pamphlets as well, print becomes just terribly
cheap. Everyone is suddenly writing as
well and publishing things. So you get a lot of short
pamphlets being published and they circulate all over the
place. And whether they are defending
the phenomenon or trying to ridicule it or trying to tell
(09:27):
their readers that it's a reallystupid thing to believe in or a
typically Catholic thing or a typically Italian thing, people
still read it and still learn about it in some ways.
Even if you're right about a thing to discredit it, it still
sparks a fire sometimes among its readership.
And there are cases in Britain especially where just reading
(09:51):
about a case on the continent. But long enough if the if the
reporting about it goes on for acouple of weeks or a couple of
months and it's detailed enough,there have been instances where
that sparks actually a type of while a case of stigmatization
in England or in Ireland. So the press has a very direct
role in that in some way as it continues to be in in cases of
(10:15):
magical beliefs and magical practices, I think.
What gender dynamics do you see in stigmata appearances?
A Europe wide, I would say and think it's about 95% women.
It would be interesting as well to analyse it more statistically
and, and figure out what the agegroup would be.
(10:36):
Because very often we're talkingabout young women.
And, and there's a significant number of women who experience
the stigmata when they go into puberty or for example, for
reasons that are related to hormonal balances and, and
bloods as a symbol, etcetera. And we can talk about that more
if you like, but it's also a significant portion of women who
(10:59):
first become stigmatized at the age of 33.
So when Christ is crucified, because that's the moment when
they feel closest to him. But definitely there's
definitely a very large majorityof, of women, I think stigmat.
That early aged? Is there any you know,
(11:19):
correlation to Jesus mother's age?
Not that I've found it, no surprisingly.
It's also a map. It's it's also a case of
sometimes someone experiences the stigmata once, Sometimes it
it stays with them for the rest of their lives and they
experience it every week or at least every year during Easter.
(11:43):
So it affects people's lives in different ways depending on the
person. It depends on the context that
sometimes it happens in, in social isolation.
Sometimes it happens inside a convent.
In some cases it's a little bit clearer from the sources that
there has been involvement from a priest, sometimes some coaxing
encouragement, sometimes some some forced stigmatisation.
(12:09):
So those contexts are different from person from person to
person. Is there any particular case
you'd be interested in telling us about?
One of the cases I've looked at the closest in the life that
where the source material has been very rich of the was an
English prophetess from the 1860s to the 1880s called
(12:33):
Marianne Gurley, who has been active mostly in in London
itself, but also on the Isle of Wight, which is that little
island in Hampshire, so the South of England.
And she's also been in the, in the New Forest in Hampshire,
which is a place of with a very long history of magic and also
witchcraft. And there are covens there
today. And it's still a place where it
(12:55):
it hangs heavy in the air, you could say.
And it's interesting that she chose that place to become
stigmatized to me. There's also a place where she
chose to build up a cult following, you could say also to
wait for Judgement Day, which was going to strike in New
Forest in think, 18821883. And it's an interesting case
(13:18):
also because the way she uses not just her her own body or she
instrumentalizes what she experiences, it becomes the
centre, her body becomes the centre of this cult.
It also becomes the main thing to convince new followers with.
But she also uses the media in an interesting way, going back
to what we were just talking about.
(13:39):
So the press is very interested in her, but she curates the
image that she can present in the press by allowing some
journalists close to her and some and keeping some other
distance. She also writes in the
newspapers herself. So that's, that's an interesting
dynamic there of how you profileyourself as a public Mystic or
(14:02):
yeah, or a public prophetess. Yeah, I one of the interviews of
yours that I found on YouTube, you said something about some
people are able to harness what is being used against them.
So that's an example of that. Yeah, it's true.
(14:23):
I'd forgotten I said that, but yeah.
Yeah. Are.
All stigmatics? Do they all have mystical
abilities or is that just some of them?
But the ones that we know most about the stigmata tend to be
the final stage in an escalatingseries of mystical phenomena.
(14:45):
Very often, and I don't want to generalize this, but very often
it starts out with maybe not diabolic possession, but
diabolic. Yeah, what should I say it
turbulence? Maybe that's the right word.
People being harassed basically by demonic forces.
And that increases from bad to very often all types of illness.
(15:07):
There's definitely a correlationbetween being stigmatized and
having a a history of illness, but also there at rough and a
lot of them have clairvoyance, have had visions, go through
religious ecstasies regularly, and then in the end are rewarded
in a way by being closest to Christ by sharing his bodily
(15:31):
suffering. It's in a way the most intimate
mystical phenomena you can experience if you're looking for
that type of relationship with Christ.
Yeah, it just reminded me of something Samuel Parris, who was
the minister of Salem Village when the Salem wood trials broke
out, used to preach a lot about.We are to be broken and bruised
(15:54):
like the body of Christ. I can see where that you take
that kind of teaching and absorbthat and then this expresses
itself this way. Exactly.
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, that language is also very
present in the way religion is still circulating in the 19th
(16:16):
century. Language of the the bruised body
and the the the redemptive powerof suffering.
Yeah, the crucifixion, of course, was a spiritual healing.
And you said the tide to sickness and it's the spiritual
experience. Or is healing seen after or
(16:40):
through the stigmata as well? Bodily healing, yeah.
In some cases that happens, yes.Or there is.
There will be a miraculous healing immediately followed by
stigmatization. Usually it's intense.
It will be an illness that is sosevere that doctors have said
that there is a hopeless case orthat death will be imminent, at
(17:02):
which point the supernatural healing of the miraculous
healing tends to happen in thesenarratives.
And it is followed by a blessingthat manifests on the body.
So you've gone through all this bodily suffering and all this
mental suffering, this earthly suffering, and you've passed
through that, and as a robot youget to suffer with Christ.
(17:25):
Thank you so much for jumping in.
I, I know there is a lot of complexity to this and just like
we've learned with history on witch hunts, each story and each
person is unique and has these different intersections.
But thank you for going into that with us.
We really enjoyed your presentation at the conference
(17:46):
where you spoke on right and wrong RITE and wrong lay
exorcist in Belgium 18118 Fifty.I'd like to just establish what
is an exorcism and what is not an exorcism.
This is, in a way, the central question of my research into
(18:07):
exorcism, because that was a very easy answer.
And that's given by the church, which is it is a right of
cleansing, cleansing a demonic presence that has taken hold of
someone's body. And you do it through a very
specific right that is prescribed.
And it is quite administrative in some aspects.
It's not at all the spectacular scenes that might pop into your
(18:31):
head when you think of the word exorcism, but when you look at
possession or demonic possessionin practice, exorcism can mean a
lot more than just that. Also because when you shift your
focus from how it's from the prescribed right to how people
felt and what people felt they needed to be helped, that right
(18:53):
doesn't really cover it or it doesn't really respond to
people's needs as often as they would like.
So there's a whole range of practices that are called
exorcisms also in the 19th and the 20th centuries, which are
provided by priests. It also by a bunch of lay
healers, by cunning folk, by people who are UN witches.
(19:16):
There's a whole marketplace, youcould say magical service
providers. And so in Belgium, where I've
been looking up most closely, who all provide exorcisms and
that can take all kinds of shapes.
And it also really depends on, you know, the the customer in a
way to call them that about the specific needs and the specific
(19:37):
description of the possession. So there are cunning folk who
use magical charms. There are also priests who use
magical charms. So that it's not just the
boundary between the the right of exorcism and the exorcism in
practice, it's also about how the boundary between religion
and magic continues to be very, very porous well into the 20th
(20:01):
century. That was so great.
I, I just want to real quick, when you talked about the needs
being met versus the right and how it goes through the
cleansing, there really is that gap that we see people hitting.
Because here in the US, when we're finding children that have
(20:25):
died through exorcisms, it has been often family who was trying
to find a way to get rid of evilor help the child or both, not
necessarily both. But I really see how that could
play out in into these unfortunate circumstances when
(20:49):
you have that need. But then there's the official
work that should be taking care of the Spirit.
You mentioned this porous boundary between religion and
magic. Could you explain that a little
more? Yeah, sure.
(21:09):
Just to stick with exorcism. I think what struck me, what I
found more surprising than the lay exorcists or lay healers or
cunning folk using religious imagery or using the right of
exorcism itself, or using Saintsor the invocation of Saints to
form an exorcism. Was there the readiness with
(21:30):
which priests and clergy were using alternative means or
integrating alternative aspects of of all kinds of beliefs,
systems and beliefs in their exorcism practice?
So the ease with which for example, in 1853 or 1854, I
(21:52):
think a priest in Mrs. County Limerick now, so we're in
Ireland. I've also looked at Ireland
invokes not just the Virgin Marywhen he's exercising someone,
but also the Queen of fairies and actually needs both of these
figures to help him exercise theDean are things that surprised
me initially a lot more. Also in a way, the the the
(22:17):
willingness of the church as an institution to look the other
way when knowing that these things were happening because
they recognized that this was a response to a particular need.
Magic was allowed within the Catholic Church to an extent you
could say, and that's maybe a bit of a strong statement, but
it does show how magic practice or other types of unorthodox
(22:41):
beliefs kept entering Catholic practice well into the 20th
century. So I find cases of this well
into the 1950s, nineteen 60s here in Belgium, which is again
is a very Catholic country. The church is a very present
institution, very present cultural institution in this
(23:02):
country well into the 1960s. And yet parish priests
everywhere across the country are deploying magical practices
to exorcise demons and that is not a that is not considered a
problem by most people. Do they recognize it as magical
practice here in the United States?
(23:23):
I've come to understand magic and all the things that we do
that are magical or little exorcisms, cleansing.
Why do you think it's not being recognized as part of our
behaviours? Why do you think that is?
I think it's implicitly recognized by a lot of people.
(23:46):
I don't want to point the the finger at the 19th century
again, but it is a bit of a cliche of historians to say
everything bad stems from the 19th century.
But there is a type of social taboo that was cast on certain
things relating to magic or magical practice or to certain
types of beliefs. It's the the period in which the
(24:07):
term superstition became no man full pretty much anything that
someone disapproved of, and partly because of the way the
press dealt with it, but also because of the way people.
And I think this is a this is a hypothesis, but the way people
attempted to position themselveswithin a time period that is
(24:28):
considered itself to be modern and therefore non magical,
placed all those things in a taboo sphere where it was done
but kept quiet. There is that the book by I
think I have it here somewhere by the ethnologist Jeanette
Fafrina Sada, who did field workin France in the 50s and her
(24:51):
respondents. So all all the people she talked
to, one of the most common phrases there was that it's just
something that is done without talking about it.
We don't need to talk about it. In fact, talking about it can
disenchant something, but it canalso make certain types of.
Yeah. Dark magic stronger, but as a
(25:11):
double taboo almost. And I don't know if that's still
the case at the moment, maybe less so than it was 20 years
ago. I do feel like when I ask my
students, there's there's an openness to talk about what they
practice, about what they believe as well, which I which
(25:34):
continues to surprise me. Yeah, I think it's, I've noticed
when I'm interacting with peoplenow, if I recognize a ritual
that they are embracing or doingor talking about, I will
recognize that, oh, tell me moreabout this ritual.
And sometimes I'll get to look like, oh, it's a ritual.
(25:56):
Like there's not, that's not necessarily normally spoken, but
I enjoy recognizing them now. So the the devil, I wanted to
bring him in a little bit, if you could talk about him and
exorcisms. Basically, what is the devil's
role in possessions and exorcisms?
(26:21):
Again, that varies from case to case.
Sometimes it's the devil, it's Satan himself who possesses a
person sometimes and most times it's one of his one or several
of the demons in his legions of hell.
There have been what I what I see a lot in the 19th century
(26:41):
here in Belgium is that when thedevil himself is said to be
inside a body, the exorcism tends to escalate.
So it becomes harder. Very often it it requires
multiple or multiple priests. Sometimes help is being is
called upon from outside Belgium.
There was a very in the 1830s, eighteen 40s.
(27:04):
There was a very well known exorcist from Luxembourg, which
is the neighboring country. He was a Bishop that had a very
good reputation of doing very difficult exorcism, so he came
to Belgium a couple of times to deal with the devil himself.
In practice it was also clear that not everyone doing an
exorcism should attempt to talk to the devil if he was inside.
(27:26):
Because he's the father of lies.There is no point to it anyway.
Any information you'll get from him will be a lie.
But more dangerously, trying to talk to the devil might incite
the devil to leave that person'sbody and try and take possession
of a priest. So when you look at clerical
Diaries about these types of exorcisms, they there are
(27:47):
several Belgian priests who complain about being plagued at
night by Satan who has momentarily left the body of the
possessed to come scare them away from the situation.
That kind of thing happens less with other demons.
I think the presence of Satan inthat regard is also that it it
becomes, it tends to become a a high profile case more quickly.
(28:10):
Yeah. What other kinds of things have
been recorded about their experiences?
The exorcism is interesting, butto hear their what they have
felt or experienced individuallybecause of their involvement,
that's fascinating. So most of those sources we have
(28:32):
about how it felt are from priests.
He just mostly described what they feel, which is interesting
as well. But we very rarely get insight
into what it actually feels likefor the person who is possessed,
who claims possessed, who is suffering from demonic
enterprises. I have looked at the at the rare
(28:54):
type of source as far as I can tell, which is as I can.
I can only call it an exorcism diary which was held I'm kept by
the nuns of a monastery nearby where I live in a small town in
the 1890s. They had a an inmate I suppose
you could call it because she was not allowed to leave.
(29:16):
A young woman again, who was allegedly possessed by 7 demons
and was going, was, was put through daily exorcisms
basically for about 7 years in this monastery.
And the diary runs for about 7 years.
So you see the handwriting change as different nuns take
(29:37):
over. And that's extremely detailed.
And they allegedly, because you can't ever be sure, write down
verbatim the conversations they have with the person who is
possessed and with the demons aswell.
And from those conversations emerges an experience of deep,
deep suffering, I would say, over an immense pain, physically
(30:01):
and mentally, not just because they're possessed, because of
the daily exorcisms they're put through.
And they're there. You can imagine if you start out
with the prescribed rite and it doesn't seem to have an effect,
after seven years, you're doing something quite different.
Arguably, those nuns were torturing that woman without
(30:22):
salvation, you could say. So for seven years she's
basically been put through hell in a way.
Yeah. And it's hard to read, but it's
also hard to read because you, because these nuns are
describing what the woman is saying.
The woman is telling them how hard it is and how much she
wished them to stop doing it. And they just write it down and
(30:45):
continue for years. I've not come across sources
like that anywhere else. Yeah, it's a real example of
this. Like humanity is lost, like the
sight, they've lost sights that she's a woman like them.
And we see that every day. Yeah.
(31:08):
Do you suspect it in a lot of these cases?
But you don't see it as explicitly as I saw it in that
diary. Also because then the the link
with witchcraft is made very quickly.
Exorcism and and witchcraft havevery close ties anyway you could
say with the way she is being interrogated in a way by the
(31:31):
nuns it resembles the early modern which persecutions in
some ways Verity but also the torture that goes with it.
Yeah, Rebecca Greensmith of Connecticut just came to mind
right away because it was a minister who interrogated her in
the jail and she was in misery in what we know because.
(31:57):
Yeah, What was written was that by the end of the questioning,
she was ready to tear herself into or some expression like
that, that she was ready to go to extreme lengths to end to
just the questioning. And we don't think that they
used any judicial torture in Connecticut or anything like
(32:18):
that. So just being berated I guess.
It's a dehumanizing process veryoften, but I have also found
sources that are, that are the opposite in a way where the the
exorcism is described also, not just by the priest, but also by
the person going through it and by family members as a, as a
(32:41):
process of healing physically and spiritually without the
types of torment we've just talked about.
Or it's sometimes just a matter of praying very hard together.
And the demon is seen fleeing the body and then the church
bells ring and then they and they leave the church and the
(33:02):
whole village is gathered there and everyone is happy.
So that's the other extreme almost.
Is there still public celebrations of successful
exorcisms? Not that I know of, no.
Belgium is going through a bit. Oh, well, Europe is going
through a bit of an exorcism boom, you could say past 20
years within its Catholic communities and to the point
(33:27):
where the Vatican has now these,these summer courses, you could
say for priests who can, it's a type of crash course into
exorcism so that they can respond to the increasing demand
in their parish. But it seems like it has when we
talk about the the right as it'sprescribed, that seems to be
overwhelmingly the way it's donewithin Catholic communities.
(33:51):
It contrasts quite starkly with what you can call DIY exorcisms,
like the ones you you into that earlier when family members take
things into their own hands and gets out of and gets out of and
with fatal conclusions. Yeah.
Well, we have seen cases in the past I know of.
(34:16):
Is it Annalise Michelle who passed away, unfortunately
during an exorcism that went toofar?
Have you seen other cases in the19th or 20th century that would
be along those lines? It was like they're going
through the ritual and it wasn'tworking and maybe things
escalated. She's definitely the most well
(34:37):
known case in Europe, and she actually sparked in the 1970s a
wave of exorcisms in Belgium as well, and possession cases.
But despite the horrible conclusion of the whole story,
it's still caused by the wave ofpossession cases.
Interestingly, I can't think of any that had a similar similarly
(35:01):
dramatic conclusion, at least inthat period elsewhere, or not
within Catholicism at least. There have been several cases
here in Belgium in in Muslim communities where young girls
have died in very similar situations like Annalisa Michel
in the 1970s, often in in situations where there was no
(35:25):
clergy around but people took matters into their own hands.
In the 17th century, possessionswould get blamed on witchcraft
like a witch is causing us do. Do we still see that today as
bewitchment, as a cause of possession?
(35:49):
In Catholic Europe I don't see it anymore.
More interesting, but it's not. I would also say I still see it
in the 19th century. There's a town near Antwerp,
which is one of the biggest cities here in Belgium, that in
the 1830s had flurry of witchcraft and possession cases
where a band of witches, as theycalled it, a new band of
(36:10):
witches, I think it was, caused a mass possession, basically,
and therefore also required a mass exorcism.
And now the link was very explicit.
Yeah, it was the witches doing it.
And then in court, they also testified to say that Satan had
made them do it. And this was in the 1800s.
(36:30):
That's 18331830. But the difference that those
accused of witchcraft were then not executed.
They were. They were imprisoned because of
civil causing civil unrest, but then so were the other people
who called for the exorcism, so they were put in prison
(36:51):
together. So there is a shift there, I
think very slow shift in the waythings like this is dealt with.
Yeah. So these summer sessions of
preparing priests for exorcisms,because there's more of a need
that's going to, are we going tolearn more?
(37:14):
Is the general public going to be, we're confronted with
exorcism in Hollywood and book and fiction all the time.
But are we going to, are these stories, these exorcism stories
going to be more around us or will it be kept behind the
church walls? How does that work?
(37:37):
That's also a very good question.
There is no real transparency about these things.
The major exorcism hub, if you want to call it that, or a
centre of expertise here in Belgium, is an Abbey of
Norbertines that allegedly do over 1000 exorcisms a year.
That's three a day, and they have no records about this.
(38:01):
So the church as a whole tends not to keep records about
exorcisms unless they go wrong. So it's very difficult to say to
give any type of statistics about how often exorcism is
actually formed unless you, if Italk to parish priests, they
will tell me and I, I have no reason to assume that they're
making up the numbers. But there is no official
(38:24):
statistics, and there is also noofficial written record of what
is done and how it's done. And in a way that's similar to
what was going on in the 19th century, the church also didn't
keep records or official recordsthen either.
The cases we hear the most aboutare the cases that have
escalated, that have gone wrong or have gone very right.
(38:46):
But your standard exorcism is isalmost invisible in historical
sources because it's just considered to be a right.
It's just part of the task set of a priest.
Yeah. So it touches on issues of
privacy and, well, now GDPR. And the parish priests weren't
(39:10):
the only ones doing the exorcisms.
You you mentioned there were laypeople doing exorcisms as well.
How would those have been different from each other?
The priest versus the the layperson?
Lay exorcists seem to have had alot more.
Should I put it room in which toimprovise or to develop their
(39:33):
own practices in a way that theyseemed fit?
Very often they provided exorcism as one in a toolbox of
magical services or as one of many services they provided.
So what you find a lot in the 19th century here in Belgium is
magnetizers. So people who were mesmerists, I
suppose, who used, I shall describe animal magnetism.
(39:57):
It's their beliefs that the cosmos.
But there is a current and a current of energy that runs
through the cosmos and runs through people itself as well.
And if that gets blocked, you'd get ill.
And mesmerists or magnetizers can heal that and restore the
flow. They that was something that was
(40:18):
popular in the 19th century and that fitted very well with
exorcism as a practice. So people lay healers combined
the two very often. So they would restore the
current, often by taking the demon out of a body, for
example. So you see how in, in,
especially in the lay practices,exorcism develops or changes
(40:41):
depending on what was culturallyavailable, in a way.
When, when, yeah. When later spiritualism becomes
more popular and more present, lay exorcists shift towards
spiritualism as well, or towardshypnosis.
Yeah. Like there's a different toolbox
available to you depending what time and place that you're you
(41:03):
are, Yeah. And also, it depends on what
people expect from you. There are many cases in which a
priest has done the exorcism exactly as prescribed, and
people say it's been completely ineffective because it doesn't
look very spectacular. It doesn't look like there's
anything going on. The priest hasn't exerted enough
(41:26):
spiritual authority I guess. Make it look like he did
something and then a lay exorcist very often will lay it
on sick. So there's like this
performative aspect then to exorcism, you have to put on a
show or your customers won't believe that you're being
effective. Yeah, but that's also the case
(41:49):
for priests By the 19th century.There's a shift between the
early modern period and the 19th20th century, where the priests
who before then would perform anexorcism mostly as a channel
channeling God's power. That changes at some point in
the early 19th century towards priests saying it is basically
(42:09):
their own spiritual authority. Causing the demon to run away.
Not so much. I mean, it's God is still there,
but they're not just channellingit.
It depends on the persona of thepriest.
We really appreciate you doing this with us.
I learned a lot. It's such an important topic.
Even though there's so much thatis variable and elusive, it is
(42:34):
just such a really important thing to open our eyes and look
at as much as possible. So thanks for your work.
What do you have coming up next?Do you have any books or
projects you want to talk? In the process of writing a book
about exorcisms in Belgium, which I think I promised the
(42:56):
publisher it would be done this year.
So it's now the 6th of January said to myself this has a
deadline and I've I've started doing research on shall I put it
contemporary heritage related tothe early modern, which ends
here in Belgium and the Netherlands.
(43:17):
That's something that's started about 20 years ago, the erection
of monuments and the the apologies and the pardons and
the citizen initiatives, I guess, or the restoration or the
memorialization of some witches or some people accused of
witchcraft and not others. So there's an interesting
selection procedure going on there and there's a lot of
(43:40):
political momentum around it, which I'm starting to look into.
I am so excited about that. It's interesting to me because
obviously if the work we do, butwe I wonder how much you'll see
initiatives passing with a generation that passes because
we've seen some of that here. In the 1930s with Goody Cole,
(44:03):
New Hampshire, a lot was done and there's a big focus.
There was historical anniversaries happening and then
jumping over to Boston. Goodie Glover, she does have a
plaque, but there were priests who were working on getting a
monument for her and that never was completed.
But we're working in Massachusetts to get
acknowledgement for those that are known to have gone through
(44:27):
witch trials so that some of those things have come up.
So I'm really, I will really enjoy learning about your
research on that. It's you.
Have to I'll. Probably depend on your
expertise at some point in the near future about this, yes.
So I might be in touch in touch sooner rather than later.
Great. That would be great.
But yeah, people wonder how manyepisodes can we come up with?
(44:50):
There's thousands because we haven't even really got to jump
into these modern or any time that there's been an effort to
recognize somebody who has gone through this in a memorial.
You know, we have hardly touchedon that.
And globally there's been a lot.There has been a lot, especially
in community, you know, local communities.
(45:11):
But I I would love to learn about who's been acknowledged
and who has it and why. Yeah, I mean, I, I can't talk
much about it yet. I don't know about it yet, but
it's tempting to anyway. Yeah, great.
Yeah. But we've seen that selective
nature of who gets a monument, who gets exonerated over time.
There have been different efforts in Massachusetts in
(45:34):
particular to add more people toit, but still people get
excluded every time. So we're trying to come in and
say everybody who had this happen to them is we're clearing
their name and we're going to remember them and they're what
they're what they went through. How that's still relevant for us
(45:57):
now? Yeah.
And I'll be curious to like if when you're looking, if you see
that more marginalized individuals are left out because
we, you know, there's a little girl from the Salem history for
four years old or so. She is not recognized on a
(46:18):
memorial prison for months, but she's never been.
And her situation, she wasn't hung, her mother was, but she
was interrogated and indicted and all that and no recognition
for her and I. Think they made little shackles
for They specially made little things to fit around her ankles
(46:40):
and wrists so that she'd be bound.
So yeah. Yeah, they're they're difficult
histories. Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you so very much. This has been delightful and now
Sarah has end witch hunts news. As the Executive Director of End
(47:01):
Witch Hunts, I want to emphasizethe critical importance of
demonstrating the connection of historical injustices with
ongoing persecution of innocent people around the world through
drawing recognizable parallels between the accusations and
persecution faced by victims of historical witch trials and
those suffering from similar accusations today.
Do you understand the enduring nature of persecution?
(47:24):
Historical injustices mirror ongoing persecution worldwide.
Our mission to end witch hunts connects centuries old victims
to those suffering from accusations today.
By breaking the silence around these cases, we forge a path
toward justice for all victims, past and present.
Connecticut's 2023 resolution, HJ 34A Resolution Concerning
(47:46):
Certain Witchcraft Convictions in Colonial Connecticut, stands
as a landmark success in colonial witch trial
exonerations. This achievement proves that
community advocacy and collaboration can bring justice.
Providing a model for current legislative efforts,
Connecticut's public testimony records offer invaluable
(48:06):
guidance for effective advocacy in other states.
Right now, 2 critical initiatives need your support.
Massachusetts HD 3054 seeks justice for eight pre Salem
victims in Boston, while Maryland's HJ 2 addresses
colonial era witch trial convictions.
Too many colonial witch trial victims remain without
(48:29):
recognition as witch hunts extended far beyond Salem,
affecting innocent men, women, and children across multiple
colonies. Take action now.
Prepare written testimony for legislative committees in both
Massachusetts and Maryland. Prepare to speak at upcoming
hearings in both Massachusetts and Maryland.
Visit endwitchhunts.org for guidance.
(48:52):
Massachusetts residents, contactyour legislative representative
and ask them to Co sponsor the HD 3054 bill.
Maryland residents, contact yourlegislative representative and
ask them to Co sponsor HJ 2. Reference Connecticut's HJ 34
testimonies for effective advocacy examples.
(49:13):
Your action is crucial whether you're a descendant or concerned
citizen. Join us in securing justice for
these historical victims. Thank.
You, Sarah. You're welcome.
Mary Bingham returns with a new minute with Mary.
One way to educate the public regarding current spiritual and
(49:34):
ritual abuse cases is to comparethe two colonial witch trial
cases. Since most will read articles on
stories of the Salem Witch Trials, I decided to propose a
story to The Uncommon Ground that will compare the tragedy of
four year old Dorothy Good, accused of bewitching her
neighbors over 333 years ago, and the sad existence she lived
(49:56):
after she was released from jail, to the accusation of
demonic possession against three-year old Airily Proctor
only four years ago that resulted in her death.
Though masked a little differently, the parallels of
these two cases almost 330 yearsapart offer stunning
similarities. Stay tuned for the soon to be
(50:16):
published article. Thank you Mary.
And thank you for joining us today on this podcast.
You should check out our robust catalog of expert discussions.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
So when you look at clerical Diaries about these types of
exorcisms, they there are several Belgian priests who
complain about being plagued at night by Satan who has
momentarily left the body of thepossessed to come scare them
away from the situation. That kind of thing happens less
with other demons. I think the presence of Satan in
(00:23):
that regard is also that it it becomes it tends to become a a
high profile case more quickly. Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast,
where we discuss the history of witchcraft, magic and the
supernatural. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we have an important
discussion with author and historian Christophe Smares, who
is joining us from Belgium. Christophe specializes in the
(00:45):
history of science, religion, and magic in the 19th and 20th
centuries, with a focus on knowledge production about the
cult and the supernatural. He presented his specialized
research on stigmata and exorcisms at the 2024 Magic and
Witchcraft Conference in York, which Josh and I attended.
His historical analysis providesimportant context and insight
(01:07):
that you get to experience today.
So let's welcome Christoph Smares to the podcast.
Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast. We were so happy to meet you at
the Magic and Witchcraft Conference in York.
Can you introduce yourself and share about your expertise in
your recent research and writing?
(01:27):
Hi and well, thanks for the invitation as well.
I'm Christophe Smaes. I'm a historian in Belgium and I
work primarily on the history ofscience, religion and magic in
the 19th and the 20th centuries.What should we know about
Belgium? The question I tend to ask is
what do people actually know about Belgium, which is a tricky
(01:49):
one sometimes. Well, the capital is Brussels,
which is the center of all of the institutional side of the
European Union. I suppose it's also our capital.
It's a tiny country somewhere between France and Germany, with
a very rich history in, especially when it comes to the
(02:10):
history of witchcraft. I'm really excited to talk to
you about your expertise today because you your work is in a
later century than a lot of whatwe've talked about.
So I'm expecting to learn a lot.I thought maybe we would start
by learning about stigmata and its complexities.
(02:30):
Sure. So a couple of years ago I
started doing my PhD on the recent history of stigmata.
So the wounds of Christ on people's mortal living bodies in
Britain and Ireland. And it was part of a bigger
project that looked at stigmata across Europe in the 19th and
the 20th centuries. And that project was
(02:52):
international, but it had a verystrong emphasis on Catholic
countries or countries that werepredominantly Catholic, like
Italy, Spain, also Belgium as a very Catholic country.
And I thought maybe it's more interesting to go look for it in
places that you wouldn't expect a phenomenon like that to appear
so often. I looked at Britain and in the
second instance also at Ireland,places with a very complicated
(03:16):
religious landscape, very multifaceted, a lot of different
smaller Christian groups flying or wealth of believers for for
devotees, especially in the 19thand the 20th centuries.
And it turned out that stigmata appeared not just among English
Catholics or Irish Catholics. It wasn't a typically Irish
(03:36):
Catholic phenomenon, for example, but so-called rational
Anglicans were also experiencingprofoundly bedazzling physical
phenomena on their own bodies, and they didn't always know what
to do with it or what it meant. And that in itself was
interesting enough to write a whole book about.
And also because it says so muchabout how religion was
(03:58):
experienced in that period amongso many different people in
different ways. I don't your work is in more
recent centuries, 19th and 20th centuries yet, but how old is
the phenomenon of stigmata? Has it been around since well
before the that time period or is it pretty new?
(04:22):
Well, the first one was was Christ himself, I suppose, when
he went, when he was crucified. But the first person we tend to
call a stigmatic is Saint Francis of Assisi in the 13th
century, who climbs a mountain and is visited by an Angel who
he says in a vision, shoots angelic rays at his body that
hit him in the palms of his hands and his feet.
(04:44):
Well, it's this, his side. So he gets the five wounds of
Christ and he goes through Christ's suffering with Christ,
and that becomes that. He sets the template, I suppose,
for the centuries after. But predominantly when you look
at histories of these types of things, we look, we think of it
as a medieval phenomenon, something that was very
phenomenon that was typical of avery bodily or embodied sense of
(05:08):
religion that dies out as people.
That's the, you know, the dominant narrative.
As people become more rational and more scientific in their
thinking, these types of things disappear.
And that doesn't turn out to be the case at all.
So the 19th and 20th centuries and arguably still nowadays are
really the golden era of astronomenon like stigmat.
(05:29):
You also see it in the way that people talk about it in the 19th
century, mostly skeptics and critics.
By linking phenomena like that to early modern witchcraft, for
example, they're just saying it's it's the next demonic thing
in a different guise, or it's another manifestation of
superstition and credulity, justlike just like in the early
(05:51):
modern period. And you mentioned his suffering
with Christ is does it always gohand in hand with suffering?
Among Catholic, definitely. What I found in Britain,
especially among non Catholics, is that there could be a variety
of different things. In the 1830s there was a prophet
(06:11):
in Canterbury, so in the South East of England, who claimed he
was Christ reborn and he had a big beard and he dressed in
velvet and Saturn. But he also had the wounds of
Christ and he didn't seem to suffer much.
He wrote a lot about what he went through and how he was
going to organize Judgement Day,I suppose.
(06:33):
But he wasn't bed bound like so many stigmatics were.
He actually was he. He claimed to be super strong,
so he carried while his hands were bleeding with the wounds of
Christ. He lifted a barrel of beer above
his head as a feat of strength of supernatural strength.
So that's a very nothing outlierstatistically for how people
(06:54):
with stigmata tended to behave. And you find them more in
Britain than elsewhere, I think.Oh really?
Are there like certain time periods when stigmata is more
common? There's certain situations that
might happen societally or anything that influence the
appearance of stigmatas. That's a very difficult question
(07:16):
to answer because you can see itappear more or it becomes more
visible in certain time periods,but it's difficult to say what
is correlation and causation in that regard.
You know that at some points in the 19th century, the Catholic
churches or feels it's in the defense or it's being attacked
by rationalists, by later, by Darwin, by science, and it feels
(07:39):
the need to profile itself in a different way.
And then you sometimes see a manifestation of people with
stigma more visibly than before.It's difficult to link to say
that that link is so clear cut to me, but it is there in some
way. You mentioned about how modern
(07:59):
writing reveals this perspectiveof its ancientness, just like
how we perceive how some perceived magics life too.
And we know from all the interviewing we've done in
reading and talking that right now, you know, witch hunts are
(08:21):
very active because of lots of beliefs and fear of evil magic.
And so it's also an era where, hey, it's actually very alive in
people's minds and affecting their behaviors.
And media has played a lot of role in that, and academics
(08:42):
writing and everybody writing. But how much of A role have
Newfest reports played in developing the popular belief
about stigmata, including that it's not necessarily something
happening now? Huge.
I think it's the very short answer to that, and that's part
of the reason why we looked at the 19th and the 20th centuries
to begin with. It's the period when the press
(09:04):
becomes popular, becomes cheap. When you go and you have the
development of the yellow press,as they call it.
So cheap pamphlets as well, print becomes just terribly
cheap. Everyone is suddenly writing as
well and publishing things. So you get a lot of short
pamphlets being published and they circulate all over the
place. And whether they are defending
the phenomenon or trying to ridicule it or trying to tell
(09:27):
their readers that it's a reallystupid thing to believe in or a
typically Catholic thing or a typically Italian thing, people
still read it and still learn about it in some ways.
Even if you're right about a thing to discredit it, it still
sparks a fire sometimes among its readership.
And there are cases in Britain especially where just reading
(09:51):
about a case on the continent. But long enough if the if the
reporting about it goes on for acouple of weeks or a couple of
months and it's detailed enough,there have been instances where
that sparks actually a type of while a case of stigmatization
in England or in Ireland. So the press has a very direct
role in that in some way as it continues to be in in cases of
(10:15):
magical beliefs and magical practices, I think.
What gender dynamics do you see in stigmata appearances?
A Europe wide, I would say and think it's about 95% women.
It would be interesting as well to analyse it more statistically
and, and figure out what the agegroup would be.
(10:36):
Because very often we're talkingabout young women.
And, and there's a significant number of women who experience
the stigmata when they go into puberty or for example, for
reasons that are related to hormonal balances and, and
bloods as a symbol, etcetera. And we can talk about that more
if you like, but it's also a significant portion of women who
(10:59):
first become stigmatized at the age of 33.
So when Christ is crucified, because that's the moment when
they feel closest to him. But definitely there's
definitely a very large majorityof, of women, I think stigmat.
That early aged? Is there any you know,
(11:19):
correlation to Jesus mother's age?
Not that I've found it, no surprisingly.
It's also a map. It's it's also a case of
sometimes someone experiences the stigmata once, Sometimes it
it stays with them for the rest of their lives and they
experience it every week or at least every year during Easter.
(11:43):
So it affects people's lives in different ways depending on the
person. It depends on the context that
sometimes it happens in, in social isolation.
Sometimes it happens inside a convent.
In some cases it's a little bit clearer from the sources that
there has been involvement from a priest, sometimes some coaxing
encouragement, sometimes some some forced stigmatisation.
(12:09):
So those contexts are different from person from person to
person. Is there any particular case
you'd be interested in telling us about?
One of the cases I've looked at the closest in the life that
where the source material has been very rich of the was an
English prophetess from the 1860s to the 1880s called
(12:33):
Marianne Gurley, who has been active mostly in in London
itself, but also on the Isle of Wight, which is that little
island in Hampshire, so the South of England.
And she's also been in the, in the New Forest in Hampshire,
which is a place of with a very long history of magic and also
witchcraft. And there are covens there
today. And it's still a place where it
(12:55):
it hangs heavy in the air, you could say.
And it's interesting that she chose that place to become
stigmatized to me. There's also a place where she
chose to build up a cult following, you could say also to
wait for Judgement Day, which was going to strike in New
Forest in think, 18821883. And it's an interesting case
(13:18):
also because the way she uses not just her her own body or she
instrumentalizes what she experiences, it becomes the
centre, her body becomes the centre of this cult.
It also becomes the main thing to convince new followers with.
But she also uses the media in an interesting way, going back
to what we were just talking about.
(13:39):
So the press is very interested in her, but she curates the
image that she can present in the press by allowing some
journalists close to her and some and keeping some other
distance. She also writes in the
newspapers herself. So that's, that's an interesting
dynamic there of how you profileyourself as a public Mystic or
(14:02):
yeah, or a public prophetess. Yeah, I one of the interviews of
yours that I found on YouTube, you said something about some
people are able to harness what is being used against them.
So that's an example of that. Yeah, it's true.
(14:23):
I'd forgotten I said that, but yeah.
Yeah. Are.
All stigmatics? Do they all have mystical
abilities or is that just some of them?
But the ones that we know most about the stigmata tend to be
the final stage in an escalatingseries of mystical phenomena.
(14:45):
Very often, and I don't want to generalize this, but very often
it starts out with maybe not diabolic possession, but
diabolic. Yeah, what should I say it
turbulence? Maybe that's the right word.
People being harassed basically by demonic forces.
And that increases from bad to very often all types of illness.
(15:07):
There's definitely a correlationbetween being stigmatized and
having a a history of illness, but also there at rough and a
lot of them have clairvoyance, have had visions, go through
religious ecstasies regularly, and then in the end are rewarded
in a way by being closest to Christ by sharing his bodily
(15:31):
suffering. It's in a way the most intimate
mystical phenomena you can experience if you're looking for
that type of relationship with Christ.
Yeah, it just reminded me of something Samuel Parris, who was
the minister of Salem Village when the Salem wood trials broke
out, used to preach a lot about.We are to be broken and bruised
(15:54):
like the body of Christ. I can see where that you take
that kind of teaching and absorbthat and then this expresses
itself this way. Exactly.
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, that language is also very
present in the way religion is still circulating in the 19th
(16:16):
century. Language of the the bruised body
and the the the redemptive powerof suffering.
Yeah, the crucifixion, of course, was a spiritual healing.
And you said the tide to sickness and it's the spiritual
experience. Or is healing seen after or
(16:40):
through the stigmata as well? Bodily healing, yeah.
In some cases that happens, yes.Or there is.
There will be a miraculous healing immediately followed by
stigmatization. Usually it's intense.
It will be an illness that is sosevere that doctors have said
that there is a hopeless case orthat death will be imminent, at
(17:02):
which point the supernatural healing of the miraculous
healing tends to happen in thesenarratives.
And it is followed by a blessingthat manifests on the body.
So you've gone through all this bodily suffering and all this
mental suffering, this earthly suffering, and you've passed
through that, and as a robot youget to suffer with Christ.
(17:25):
Thank you so much for jumping in.
I, I know there is a lot of complexity to this and just like
we've learned with history on witch hunts, each story and each
person is unique and has these different intersections.
But thank you for going into that with us.
We really enjoyed your presentation at the conference
(17:46):
where you spoke on right and wrong RITE and wrong lay
exorcist in Belgium 18118 Fifty.I'd like to just establish what
is an exorcism and what is not an exorcism.
This is, in a way, the central question of my research into
(18:07):
exorcism, because that was a very easy answer.
And that's given by the church, which is it is a right of
cleansing, cleansing a demonic presence that has taken hold of
someone's body. And you do it through a very
specific right that is prescribed.
And it is quite administrative in some aspects.
It's not at all the spectacular scenes that might pop into your
(18:31):
head when you think of the word exorcism, but when you look at
possession or demonic possessionin practice, exorcism can mean a
lot more than just that. Also because when you shift your
focus from how it's from the prescribed right to how people
felt and what people felt they needed to be helped, that right
(18:53):
doesn't really cover it or it doesn't really respond to
people's needs as often as they would like.
So there's a whole range of practices that are called
exorcisms also in the 19th and the 20th centuries, which are
provided by priests. It also by a bunch of lay
healers, by cunning folk, by people who are UN witches.
(19:16):
There's a whole marketplace, youcould say magical service
providers. And so in Belgium, where I've
been looking up most closely, who all provide exorcisms and
that can take all kinds of shapes.
And it also really depends on, you know, the the customer in a
way to call them that about the specific needs and the specific
(19:37):
description of the possession. So there are cunning folk who
use magical charms. There are also priests who use
magical charms. So that it's not just the
boundary between the the right of exorcism and the exorcism in
practice, it's also about how the boundary between religion
and magic continues to be very, very porous well into the 20th
(20:01):
century. That was so great.
I, I just want to real quick, when you talked about the needs
being met versus the right and how it goes through the
cleansing, there really is that gap that we see people hitting.
Because here in the US, when we're finding children that have
(20:25):
died through exorcisms, it has been often family who was trying
to find a way to get rid of evilor help the child or both, not
necessarily both. But I really see how that could
play out in into these unfortunate circumstances when
(20:49):
you have that need. But then there's the official
work that should be taking care of the Spirit.
You mentioned this porous boundary between religion and
magic. Could you explain that a little
more? Yeah, sure.
(21:09):
Just to stick with exorcism. I think what struck me, what I
found more surprising than the lay exorcists or lay healers or
cunning folk using religious imagery or using the right of
exorcism itself, or using Saintsor the invocation of Saints to
form an exorcism. Was there the readiness with
(21:30):
which priests and clergy were using alternative means or
integrating alternative aspects of of all kinds of beliefs,
systems and beliefs in their exorcism practice?
So the ease with which for example, in 1853 or 1854, I
(21:52):
think a priest in Mrs. County Limerick now, so we're in
Ireland. I've also looked at Ireland
invokes not just the Virgin Marywhen he's exercising someone,
but also the Queen of fairies and actually needs both of these
figures to help him exercise theDean are things that surprised
me initially a lot more. Also in a way, the the the
(22:17):
willingness of the church as an institution to look the other
way when knowing that these things were happening because
they recognized that this was a response to a particular need.
Magic was allowed within the Catholic Church to an extent you
could say, and that's maybe a bit of a strong statement, but
it does show how magic practice or other types of unorthodox
(22:41):
beliefs kept entering Catholic practice well into the 20th
century. So I find cases of this well
into the 1950s, nineteen 60s here in Belgium, which is again
is a very Catholic country. The church is a very present
institution, very present cultural institution in this
(23:02):
country well into the 1960s. And yet parish priests
everywhere across the country are deploying magical practices
to exorcise demons and that is not a that is not considered a
problem by most people. Do they recognize it as magical
practice here in the United States?
(23:23):
I've come to understand magic and all the things that we do
that are magical or little exorcisms, cleansing.
Why do you think it's not being recognized as part of our
behaviours? Why do you think that is?
I think it's implicitly recognized by a lot of people.
(23:46):
I don't want to point the the finger at the 19th century
again, but it is a bit of a cliche of historians to say
everything bad stems from the 19th century.
But there is a type of social taboo that was cast on certain
things relating to magic or magical practice or to certain
types of beliefs. It's the the period in which the
(24:07):
term superstition became no man full pretty much anything that
someone disapproved of, and partly because of the way the
press dealt with it, but also because of the way people.
And I think this is a this is a hypothesis, but the way people
attempted to position themselveswithin a time period that is
(24:28):
considered itself to be modern and therefore non magical,
placed all those things in a taboo sphere where it was done
but kept quiet. There is that the book by I
think I have it here somewhere by the ethnologist Jeanette
Fafrina Sada, who did field workin France in the 50s and her
(24:51):
respondents. So all all the people she talked
to, one of the most common phrases there was that it's just
something that is done without talking about it.
We don't need to talk about it. In fact, talking about it can
disenchant something, but it canalso make certain types of.
Yeah. Dark magic stronger, but as a
(25:11):
double taboo almost. And I don't know if that's still
the case at the moment, maybe less so than it was 20 years
ago. I do feel like when I ask my
students, there's there's an openness to talk about what they
practice, about what they believe as well, which I which
(25:34):
continues to surprise me. Yeah, I think it's, I've noticed
when I'm interacting with peoplenow, if I recognize a ritual
that they are embracing or doingor talking about, I will
recognize that, oh, tell me moreabout this ritual.
And sometimes I'll get to look like, oh, it's a ritual.
(25:56):
Like there's not, that's not necessarily normally spoken, but
I enjoy recognizing them now. So the the devil, I wanted to
bring him in a little bit, if you could talk about him and
exorcisms. Basically, what is the devil's
role in possessions and exorcisms?
(26:21):
Again, that varies from case to case.
Sometimes it's the devil, it's Satan himself who possesses a
person sometimes and most times it's one of his one or several
of the demons in his legions of hell.
There have been what I what I see a lot in the 19th century
(26:41):
here in Belgium is that when thedevil himself is said to be
inside a body, the exorcism tends to escalate.
So it becomes harder. Very often it it requires
multiple or multiple priests. Sometimes help is being is
called upon from outside Belgium.
There was a very in the 1830s, eighteen 40s.
(27:04):
There was a very well known exorcist from Luxembourg, which
is the neighboring country. He was a Bishop that had a very
good reputation of doing very difficult exorcism, so he came
to Belgium a couple of times to deal with the devil himself.
In practice it was also clear that not everyone doing an
exorcism should attempt to talk to the devil if he was inside.
(27:26):
Because he's the father of lies.There is no point to it anyway.
Any information you'll get from him will be a lie.
But more dangerously, trying to talk to the devil might incite
the devil to leave that person'sbody and try and take possession
of a priest. So when you look at clerical
Diaries about these types of exorcisms, they there are
(27:47):
several Belgian priests who complain about being plagued at
night by Satan who has momentarily left the body of the
possessed to come scare them away from the situation.
That kind of thing happens less with other demons.
I think the presence of Satan inthat regard is also that it it
becomes, it tends to become a a high profile case more quickly.
(28:10):
Yeah. What other kinds of things have
been recorded about their experiences?
The exorcism is interesting, butto hear their what they have
felt or experienced individuallybecause of their involvement,
that's fascinating. So most of those sources we have
(28:32):
about how it felt are from priests.
He just mostly described what they feel, which is interesting
as well. But we very rarely get insight
into what it actually feels likefor the person who is possessed,
who claims possessed, who is suffering from demonic
enterprises. I have looked at the at the rare
(28:54):
type of source as far as I can tell, which is as I can.
I can only call it an exorcism diary which was held I'm kept by
the nuns of a monastery nearby where I live in a small town in
the 1890s. They had a an inmate I suppose
you could call it because she was not allowed to leave.
(29:16):
A young woman again, who was allegedly possessed by 7 demons
and was going, was, was put through daily exorcisms
basically for about 7 years in this monastery.
And the diary runs for about 7 years.
So you see the handwriting change as different nuns take
(29:37):
over. And that's extremely detailed.
And they allegedly, because you can't ever be sure, write down
verbatim the conversations they have with the person who is
possessed and with the demons aswell.
And from those conversations emerges an experience of deep,
deep suffering, I would say, over an immense pain, physically
(30:01):
and mentally, not just because they're possessed, because of
the daily exorcisms they're put through.
And they're there. You can imagine if you start out
with the prescribed rite and it doesn't seem to have an effect,
after seven years, you're doing something quite different.
Arguably, those nuns were torturing that woman without
(30:22):
salvation, you could say. So for seven years she's
basically been put through hell in a way.
Yeah. And it's hard to read, but it's
also hard to read because you, because these nuns are
describing what the woman is saying.
The woman is telling them how hard it is and how much she
wished them to stop doing it. And they just write it down and
(30:45):
continue for years. I've not come across sources
like that anywhere else. Yeah, it's a real example of
this. Like humanity is lost, like the
sight, they've lost sights that she's a woman like them.
And we see that every day. Yeah.
(31:08):
Do you suspect it in a lot of these cases?
But you don't see it as explicitly as I saw it in that
diary. Also because then the the link
with witchcraft is made very quickly.
Exorcism and and witchcraft havevery close ties anyway you could
say with the way she is being interrogated in a way by the
(31:31):
nuns it resembles the early modern which persecutions in
some ways Verity but also the torture that goes with it.
Yeah, Rebecca Greensmith of Connecticut just came to mind
right away because it was a minister who interrogated her in
the jail and she was in misery in what we know because.
(31:57):
Yeah, What was written was that by the end of the questioning,
she was ready to tear herself into or some expression like
that, that she was ready to go to extreme lengths to end to
just the questioning. And we don't think that they
used any judicial torture in Connecticut or anything like
(32:18):
that. So just being berated I guess.
It's a dehumanizing process veryoften, but I have also found
sources that are, that are the opposite in a way where the the
exorcism is described also, not just by the priest, but also by
the person going through it and by family members as a, as a
(32:41):
process of healing physically and spiritually without the
types of torment we've just talked about.
Or it's sometimes just a matter of praying very hard together.
And the demon is seen fleeing the body and then the church
bells ring and then they and they leave the church and the
(33:02):
whole village is gathered there and everyone is happy.
So that's the other extreme almost.
Is there still public celebrations of successful
exorcisms? Not that I know of, no.
Belgium is going through a bit. Oh, well, Europe is going
through a bit of an exorcism boom, you could say past 20
years within its Catholic communities and to the point
(33:27):
where the Vatican has now these,these summer courses, you could
say for priests who can, it's a type of crash course into
exorcism so that they can respond to the increasing demand
in their parish. But it seems like it has when we
talk about the the right as it'sprescribed, that seems to be
overwhelmingly the way it's donewithin Catholic communities.
(33:51):
It contrasts quite starkly with what you can call DIY exorcisms,
like the ones you you into that earlier when family members take
things into their own hands and gets out of and gets out of and
with fatal conclusions. Yeah.
Well, we have seen cases in the past I know of.
(34:16):
Is it Annalise Michelle who passed away, unfortunately
during an exorcism that went toofar?
Have you seen other cases in the19th or 20th century that would
be along those lines? It was like they're going
through the ritual and it wasn'tworking and maybe things
escalated. She's definitely the most well
(34:37):
known case in Europe, and she actually sparked in the 1970s a
wave of exorcisms in Belgium as well, and possession cases.
But despite the horrible conclusion of the whole story,
it's still caused by the wave ofpossession cases.
Interestingly, I can't think of any that had a similar similarly
(35:01):
dramatic conclusion, at least inthat period elsewhere, or not
within Catholicism at least. There have been several cases
here in Belgium in in Muslim communities where young girls
have died in very similar situations like Annalisa Michel
in the 1970s, often in in situations where there was no
(35:25):
clergy around but people took matters into their own hands.
In the 17th century, possessionswould get blamed on witchcraft
like a witch is causing us do. Do we still see that today as
bewitchment, as a cause of possession?
(35:49):
In Catholic Europe I don't see it anymore.
More interesting, but it's not. I would also say I still see it
in the 19th century. There's a town near Antwerp,
which is one of the biggest cities here in Belgium, that in
the 1830s had flurry of witchcraft and possession cases
where a band of witches, as theycalled it, a new band of
(36:10):
witches, I think it was, caused a mass possession, basically,
and therefore also required a mass exorcism.
And now the link was very explicit.
Yeah, it was the witches doing it.
And then in court, they also testified to say that Satan had
made them do it. And this was in the 1800s.
(36:30):
That's 18331830. But the difference that those
accused of witchcraft were then not executed.
They were. They were imprisoned because of
civil causing civil unrest, but then so were the other people
who called for the exorcism, so they were put in prison
(36:51):
together. So there is a shift there, I
think very slow shift in the waythings like this is dealt with.
Yeah. So these summer sessions of
preparing priests for exorcisms,because there's more of a need
that's going to, are we going tolearn more?
(37:14):
Is the general public going to be, we're confronted with
exorcism in Hollywood and book and fiction all the time.
But are we going to, are these stories, these exorcism stories
going to be more around us or will it be kept behind the
church walls? How does that work?
(37:37):
That's also a very good question.
There is no real transparency about these things.
The major exorcism hub, if you want to call it that, or a
centre of expertise here in Belgium, is an Abbey of
Norbertines that allegedly do over 1000 exorcisms a year.
That's three a day, and they have no records about this.
(38:01):
So the church as a whole tends not to keep records about
exorcisms unless they go wrong. So it's very difficult to say to
give any type of statistics about how often exorcism is
actually formed unless you, if Italk to parish priests, they
will tell me and I, I have no reason to assume that they're
making up the numbers. But there is no official
(38:24):
statistics, and there is also noofficial written record of what
is done and how it's done. And in a way that's similar to
what was going on in the 19th century, the church also didn't
keep records or official recordsthen either.
The cases we hear the most aboutare the cases that have
escalated, that have gone wrong or have gone very right.
(38:46):
But your standard exorcism is isalmost invisible in historical
sources because it's just considered to be a right.
It's just part of the task set of a priest.
Yeah. So it touches on issues of
privacy and, well, now GDPR. And the parish priests weren't
(39:10):
the only ones doing the exorcisms.
You you mentioned there were laypeople doing exorcisms as well.
How would those have been different from each other?
The priest versus the the layperson?
Lay exorcists seem to have had alot more.
Should I put it room in which toimprovise or to develop their
(39:33):
own practices in a way that theyseemed fit?
Very often they provided exorcism as one in a toolbox of
magical services or as one of many services they provided.
So what you find a lot in the 19th century here in Belgium is
magnetizers. So people who were mesmerists, I
suppose, who used, I shall describe animal magnetism.
(39:57):
It's their beliefs that the cosmos.
But there is a current and a current of energy that runs
through the cosmos and runs through people itself as well.
And if that gets blocked, you'd get ill.
And mesmerists or magnetizers can heal that and restore the
flow. They that was something that was
(40:18):
popular in the 19th century and that fitted very well with
exorcism as a practice. So people lay healers combined
the two very often. So they would restore the
current, often by taking the demon out of a body, for
example. So you see how in, in,
especially in the lay practices,exorcism develops or changes
(40:41):
depending on what was culturallyavailable, in a way.
When, when, yeah. When later spiritualism becomes
more popular and more present, lay exorcists shift towards
spiritualism as well, or towardshypnosis.
Yeah. Like there's a different toolbox
available to you depending what time and place that you're you
(41:03):
are, Yeah. And also, it depends on what
people expect from you. There are many cases in which a
priest has done the exorcism exactly as prescribed, and
people say it's been completely ineffective because it doesn't
look very spectacular. It doesn't look like there's
anything going on. The priest hasn't exerted enough
(41:26):
spiritual authority I guess. Make it look like he did
something and then a lay exorcist very often will lay it
on sick. So there's like this
performative aspect then to exorcism, you have to put on a
show or your customers won't believe that you're being
effective. Yeah, but that's also the case
(41:49):
for priests By the 19th century.There's a shift between the
early modern period and the 19th20th century, where the priests
who before then would perform anexorcism mostly as a channel
channeling God's power. That changes at some point in
the early 19th century towards priests saying it is basically
(42:09):
their own spiritual authority. Causing the demon to run away.
Not so much. I mean, it's God is still there,
but they're not just channellingit.
It depends on the persona of thepriest.
We really appreciate you doing this with us.
I learned a lot. It's such an important topic.
Even though there's so much thatis variable and elusive, it is
(42:34):
just such a really important thing to open our eyes and look
at as much as possible. So thanks for your work.
What do you have coming up next?Do you have any books or
projects you want to talk? In the process of writing a book
about exorcisms in Belgium, which I think I promised the
(42:56):
publisher it would be done this year.
So it's now the 6th of January said to myself this has a
deadline and I've I've started doing research on shall I put it
contemporary heritage related tothe early modern, which ends
here in Belgium and the Netherlands.
(43:17):
That's something that's started about 20 years ago, the erection
of monuments and the the apologies and the pardons and
the citizen initiatives, I guess, or the restoration or the
memorialization of some witches or some people accused of
witchcraft and not others. So there's an interesting
selection procedure going on there and there's a lot of
(43:40):
political momentum around it, which I'm starting to look into.
I am so excited about that. It's interesting to me because
obviously if the work we do, butwe I wonder how much you'll see
initiatives passing with a generation that passes because
we've seen some of that here. In the 1930s with Goody Cole,
(44:03):
New Hampshire, a lot was done and there's a big focus.
There was historical anniversaries happening and then
jumping over to Boston. Goodie Glover, she does have a
plaque, but there were priests who were working on getting a
monument for her and that never was completed.
But we're working in Massachusetts to get
acknowledgement for those that are known to have gone through
(44:27):
witch trials so that some of those things have come up.
So I'm really, I will really enjoy learning about your
research on that. It's you.
Have to I'll. Probably depend on your
expertise at some point in the near future about this, yes.
So I might be in touch in touch sooner rather than later.
Great. That would be great.
But yeah, people wonder how manyepisodes can we come up with?
(44:50):
There's thousands because we haven't even really got to jump
into these modern or any time that there's been an effort to
recognize somebody who has gone through this in a memorial.
You know, we have hardly touchedon that.
And globally there's been a lot.There has been a lot, especially
in community, you know, local communities.
(45:11):
But I I would love to learn about who's been acknowledged
and who has it and why. Yeah, I mean, I, I can't talk
much about it yet. I don't know about it yet, but
it's tempting to anyway. Yeah, great.
Yeah. But we've seen that selective
nature of who gets a monument, who gets exonerated over time.
There have been different efforts in Massachusetts in
(45:34):
particular to add more people toit, but still people get
excluded every time. So we're trying to come in and
say everybody who had this happen to them is we're clearing
their name and we're going to remember them and they're what
they're what they went through. How that's still relevant for us
(45:57):
now? Yeah.
And I'll be curious to like if when you're looking, if you see
that more marginalized individuals are left out because
we, you know, there's a little girl from the Salem history for
four years old or so. She is not recognized on a
(46:18):
memorial prison for months, but she's never been.
And her situation, she wasn't hung, her mother was, but she
was interrogated and indicted and all that and no recognition
for her and I. Think they made little shackles
for They specially made little things to fit around her ankles
(46:40):
and wrists so that she'd be bound.
So yeah. Yeah, they're they're difficult
histories. Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you so very much. This has been delightful and now
Sarah has end witch hunts news. As the Executive Director of End
(47:01):
Witch Hunts, I want to emphasizethe critical importance of
demonstrating the connection of historical injustices with
ongoing persecution of innocent people around the world through
drawing recognizable parallels between the accusations and
persecution faced by victims of historical witch trials and
those suffering from similar accusations today.
Do you understand the enduring nature of persecution?
(47:24):
Historical injustices mirror ongoing persecution worldwide.
Our mission to end witch hunts connects centuries old victims
to those suffering from accusations today.
By breaking the silence around these cases, we forge a path
toward justice for all victims, past and present.
Connecticut's 2023 resolution, HJ 34A Resolution Concerning
(47:46):
Certain Witchcraft Convictions in Colonial Connecticut, stands
as a landmark success in colonial witch trial
exonerations. This achievement proves that
community advocacy and collaboration can bring justice.
Providing a model for current legislative efforts,
Connecticut's public testimony records offer invaluable
(48:06):
guidance for effective advocacy in other states.
Right now, 2 critical initiatives need your support.
Massachusetts HD 3054 seeks justice for eight pre Salem
victims in Boston, while Maryland's HJ 2 addresses
colonial era witch trial convictions.
Too many colonial witch trial victims remain without
(48:29):
recognition as witch hunts extended far beyond Salem,
affecting innocent men, women, and children across multiple
colonies. Take action now.
Prepare written testimony for legislative committees in both
Massachusetts and Maryland. Prepare to speak at upcoming
hearings in both Massachusetts and Maryland.
Visit endwitchhunts.org for guidance.
(48:52):
Massachusetts residents, contactyour legislative representative
and ask them to Co sponsor the HD 3054 bill.
Maryland residents, contact yourlegislative representative and
ask them to Co sponsor HJ 2. Reference Connecticut's HJ 34
testimonies for effective advocacy examples.
(49:13):
Your action is crucial whether you're a descendant or concerned
citizen. Join us in securing justice for
these historical victims. Thank.
You, Sarah. You're welcome.
Mary Bingham returns with a new minute with Mary.
One way to educate the public regarding current spiritual and
(49:34):
ritual abuse cases is to comparethe two colonial witch trial
cases. Since most will read articles on
stories of the Salem Witch Trials, I decided to propose a
story to The Uncommon Ground that will compare the tragedy of
four year old Dorothy Good, accused of bewitching her
neighbors over 333 years ago, and the sad existence she lived
(49:56):
after she was released from jail, to the accusation of
demonic possession against three-year old Airily Proctor
only four years ago that resulted in her death.
Though masked a little differently, the parallels of
these two cases almost 330 yearsapart offer stunning
similarities. Stay tuned for the soon to be
(50:16):
published article. Thank you Mary.
And thank you for joining us today on this podcast.
You should check out our robust catalog of expert discussions.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
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