My Favorite Lifting App for Evidence-Based Workouts (Michael Liu) | Ep 247 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:01):
If you're looking for the perfect training program
, or you've been followingrandom workouts, or even have no
plan at all when you go to thegym, this episode is for you.
What if I told you that thedifference between mediocre and
exceptional results often comesdown to following a
well-structured programconsistently and tracking the
right metrics to make sureyou're actually making progress?

(00:21):
Today, I'm sitting down withthe founder of Boost Camp,
michael Liu, who's also astrength athlete and is
revolutionizing how lifterstranslate complex evidence-based
training principles intoreal-world results in the gym.
Whether you're frustrated withconfusing or ineffective
programs, you're tired ofprogram hopping, or you're ready

(00:42):
to take your training to thenext level, based on your
personal performance and data,this episode will show you how
proper programming and trackingcan help your gains take off.
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the podcast that blends evidence
and engineering to help youbuild smart, efficient systems
to achieve your dream physique.

(01:04):
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday I've invited Michael Liu
on the show to show you how tocombine the use of technology
with evidence-based training.
Now, michael is a serious lifter, like I try to be, who's pulled
600 pounds off the floor andunderstands the importance of
proper programming.
His app, boostcamp, has rapidlygained traction.

(01:25):
By giving you access toeffective training programs for
coaches who we all know and lovein the evidence-based space,
like Eric Helms, alex Bromley,greg Knuckles and Alberto Nunez
and combining that with a cleandesign and workout analytics and
you know how much I love dataToday you'll learn how to find a
program that works, implementproven training principles more

(01:45):
effectively, track the metricsthat actually matter for
progress and optimize yourtraining using that data Plus.
As someone who personally usesBoostcamp for my own training
and my clients, I'm reallyexcited to ask Michael about how
the technology works and whatthe future holds so you can
identify, track and customizeyour program to build more
strength and size than everbefore.

(02:05):
Michael, thanks for doing thisand coming on the show.
My man.

Michael Liu (02:08):
Thank you.
It's an honor to be on yourpodcast, Philip.

Yeah, and you and I connected a while back I think
you'd reached out about being anaffiliate and I said what is
this new lifting app that claimsto be the best app for lifters?
And I tried it out and I use itnow, which is awesome, right, I
use it now and my clients useit a whole bunch of folks.
I've definitely referred to theapp.
So today we're going to try notto make it an yeah, we're not

(02:31):
going to make it an infomercial,but just so people know who are
listening.
You know, I use it myself and Ithink it's a great technology.
So I want to ask you, if youwent back in time and gave
yourself boost camp when youfirst started lifting, what
would that have done for yourapproach to training and your
results?

Wow, that's an interesting question.
I mean, I would definitely be10 times stronger than I am now
Probably be a world championpowerlifter by now Competing in
the IFBB pros, probably as well.

You would be man right there next to Eric right.

Jokes aside, I would say probably would have
made more consistent progress.
When I first started liftingwas back in the early late 2000s
and that's when startingstrength was very popular.
But I would say thescience-based fitness hasn't
really caught on yet.

(03:27):
So besides starting strength,people were still on the
bodybuildingcom MISC forumsputting out random splits and
routines and mostly I was tryinga bunch of different things and
really just program hopping andwasting my time.
So I think if I had morestructure in place, better
access to incredible coaches,that is, on the bootcamp and

(03:52):
also just on the internet now, Ithink it would have definitely
made a lot more progress.

Yeah, that makes sense.
A lot of us have been through asimilar journey.
Even though I started liftinglater, it still took me 10 years
to find starting strength orthe muscle strength pyramids or
any of these things.
And one of the most commonquestions I get from clients is
like what people in general,what apps should I use to track
my workouts?
And the fact that you can takea program in an app, find it,

(04:19):
follow it and all for free.
I think that's powerful becausethat kind of connects to things
that are often separated right,like I need to go find a
program, so I get lost on theinternet and I download some old
Google sheet program fromsomebody to figure it out.
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Versus hey, jump right intoAlex Bromley's bull Mastiff,
like I just did a week ago, andyou could customize it as needed

(04:41):
, but you could just start.
So is that why you startedBoostCamp, because you saw that
need in the industry, or what'sthe story behind it?

Yeah, that's a great question.
That's exactly right.
Somy partner, patricia, she's the
engineer and she's really thebrain behind Boost Camp, but my

(05:09):
background is actually infinance, so I'm quite familiar
with using spreadsheets for workbefore we started building
Boost Camp.
But the one thing that Inoticed was, you know, as the
fitness enthusiast amongst myfriend circle, anytime someone
will ask me for a workoutprogram, I'll be like, oh hey,

(05:30):
check out this spreadsheet andsounds 531 spreadsheet, where
you're going to make greatprogress, and the most common
response I get is I'm not goingto follow a spreadsheet to go to
the gym on my mobile phone.
So that's really where, to yourpoint, the genesis of Boostcamp
came from is to make workoutprograms more accessible so that

(05:53):
people can actually follow themand make progress without
needing to, you know, bundlewith an Excel sheet on their
laptop or bring, like you know,or trying to open Google Sheets
on their phone.

Yeah, and it makes sense and I think there are apps
out there that get part of theway there and I'm probably going
to drop some of yourcompetitors as we go through
this.
But I used Train Heroic for along time through a coach that I
had, but you have to be a coachkind of paying into that and
then the client can access it oryou have to pay for a program
if you're a client.
So it looks like you came inand disrupted that by offering

(06:29):
the programs high quality,vetted from really good coaches
for free.
And then you know there'spremium features you could
upgrade to on the app that arelike the added value once you
get into that ecosystem.
Is that a fair assessment?

yeah, I mean.
So before we launch betterpremium features, we used to get
people who complain and saythat oh, like, the premium
version of bootcamp kind ofsucks.
And the reason is because wegive away the best features of
the app, which is the ability tofollow tons of amazing programs
for free.
So the way I kind of describeit is like you're going to a

(07:04):
restaurant and you get the steakfor free but you have to pay
for the ketchup.
You know what I mean?
Okay, you have to pay for thepotatoes.
I mean, at least that's whatBoostcamp was like before, where
we give away so many featuresfor free and we still do.
And frankly, I think that'simportant because you know our
mission is to make science-basedfitness more accessible, to

(07:26):
make training more accessiblefor anybody, not just people who
can afford it.
So you know to your point, wehave tons of workout programs
that are completely free to useon the app.
People can create their ownprograms for free on the app as
well, or they can just trackworkouts like a simple workout
tracker.
So we give away all thesefeatures for free so that you

(07:48):
know we actually help people getstronger and reach their
fitness goals and you know ifthey find the app useful.
Many people just want tosupport us, regardless of
whether they actually need thefree features or not, so that's
really how we think about thebusiness is not just from a

(08:14):
financial perspective.

It really started as a pet project for us to, you
know, make some moves in thespace and I'm happy to tell
people about it because, forexample, you mentioned custom
programs.
A lot of people get frustratedwith how difficult it is to just
make your own next session orworkout.
And not only can you do that,you can do it on desktop, which
is not that people are like, ohcool, you can do it on desktop,
which is like I could sit downand create a 16 week very

(08:38):
complicated program if you want,you know, in like 30 minutes on
a desktop.
But I want to talk about thoseprograms a bit, because the
listeners are like fine, youhave a bunch of programs.
What do they look like?
Well, you've partnered with abunch of some of the most
respected names in the industry.
I already mentioned a few inthe intro and I know you've had
some of them on your podcast aswell, like what have you learned
from them?
Because you and I were talkingabout how you bring people on to

(09:00):
learn from them on your podcast.
What have you learned thatmakes a program actually
effective versus, you know, itjust looks good on paper, like a
million others that are outthere.

Yeah, I get questions all the time from
users on Reddit and over emailon what is the best workout
program, and I think you knowthe right question is what is
the perfect workout program foryou?
Because I'm sure you know as acoach yourself, everybody is
different.
People have different lifeconstraints, people have

(09:31):
different goals, some people areinjured, so the perfect program
really depends on the specificperson.
So the one thing that we try todo on Boost Camp is to have
lots of different programs,cater to different goals,
whether your main goal isgeneral strength training,
bodybuilding, competitive,powerlifting, at home fitness.

(09:55):
So different goals.
We have filters for how manydays you want to train.
So we have programs for 3 daysa week, 4 days a week, even 7
days a week, programs for threedays a week, four days a week,
even seven days a week.
Programs for differentequipment access.
So some people only have youknow, only have a pull-up bar.
Some people have access to ahome gym with only barbells and

(10:17):
a few dumbbells and some peoplehave entire access of, you know,
like a commercial gym.
So by having all these differentgoals, different filters and
also different levels dependingon if you're a beginner, novice,
intermediate or advanced youcan really find the right
program for yourself, and Ithink that is the most important

(10:38):
factor between what isconsidered like a good program
for you and versus not Now.
With that being said, there'sdefinitely a contrast between
good programs and bad programs.
Like we talked about at thebeginning of the podcast, back
in the early 2010s, there were alot of really bad programs on

(10:58):
the internet Programs where youknow you're doing 20 different
exercises per day or you'redoing deadlifts after doing a
bunch of isolation exercises.
Programs that generally wouldkill you from having way too
much workload but actuallydoesn't help you make progress.
That's why I think we only tryto partner with science-based

(11:20):
coaches that not only are veryknowledgeable from a science
perspective, but also have a lotof in-field experience training
clients as well to designprograms that are actually good.
So the foundation of theprograms are good and then it's
up to the user themselves tofigure out like what is the

(11:41):
right program for them.

Right and definitely rely on those filters
pretty heavily.
And then once you go into theprogram you could see the
description of it and kind ofthe why behind that.
For someone who's been programhopping and ready to just pick a
program, is there any adviceyou give them when they do that
filter for the first time?
Because I could imagine you'dstill be overwhelmed.
Right, you still pick all thesefilters and then you have like

(12:04):
eight programs to choose from.
What would you recommend?

Yeah, I mean that's a tough problem and, frankly,
it's something that I don'tthink we've fully solved,
because, like you said right, wehave so many programs on the
app now by coaches and there'salso thousands of programs
uploaded by users as well.
Or even if you use all thefilters, you might still get
eight programs.
So I guess, like, ultimately,how you pick that, honestly, I

(12:31):
don't have a great answer.
I mean, I'm curious on you know, from your perspective as a
coach, like what would yourecommend?

Yeah, I mean, I think one answer is you won't
know until you try, Like that's.
One answer is unless you reallyknow yourself like a late,
intermediate or advanced lifter,many programs can work and I
would just look at the workouts.
Like you can hop in and you cansee OK, this is 18 week program
.
Kind of jump ahead and see whatthe lifts, the movements are.
Look at the volume we werejoking about bullmastiff, how it

(12:57):
has like a massive ramp up involume, and if that's not
something you're going to stickwith right now, maybe another
program is right for you and notsomething you're going to stick
with right now.
Maybe another program's rightfor you and there's also a
description in there.
I know Brian Borstein.
He was on the show and he has ahybrid program in there.
So there's special interestspeople might have improving

(13:17):
conditioning.
So yeah, I would say, justexperiment and we'll get to
later.
I wanted to ask you some aboutAI and technology in the future.
Maybe there's other ways to getthere.
But here's a fun question what?
What's the most bizarre program?
Or like maybe it's a communityprogram, because you don't want
to throw any of your coachesunder the bus that you've seen
like created in the app.
I don't know if that'ssomething you track and that
worked well, you know, like abizarre program.
Have you ever seen somethinglike that?

Oh my God.
So we launched the communityprogram feature in January of
this year and now there's been Ithink there's over 3,000
programs now that have beenpublished by users.
What's crazy is you canactually find thousands of users
because you can see the numberof athletes on each program.
Even for the community programs, you can find programs with

(14:01):
thousands of users on them andthere's definitely some like
super niche programs that havedone really well.
That's like super random.
We frankly had to take down someprograms that are like
inappropriate.
Okay, you know, if they havedifferent, you know like 18 plus
type of graphic, obviously wehave to take stuff like that

(14:24):
down.
But the one program that's donereally well that sort of in a
field that we hadn't reallythought about is a stretching
program, which I think might bethe most popular community
program right now and it's likea 10-minute stretching routine
which I think is really smartbecause, you know, at some point
the programs do becomesaturated, right, because
there's so many programs outthere now on BoostGap and a

(14:48):
stretching program reallybenefits any single strength
training program you do and it'sdefinitely very important for
just general health andpreventing injuries.
So I think that program, youknow, it's a really smart
program.
I'm just taking a look now atsome other ones.
There's like a basic griproutine for grip training that

(15:09):
you know has done really well.
There's one called Shy GirlsGet Fit with 800 athletes on it.
I mean, I recommend you checkout the community program
section of the website becauseyou'll find a ton of interesting
programs uploaded by users withjust like the most random names

(15:29):
and graphics but somehow theyreally attract like the exact
audience for that program.

I love that right, like the stretching.
I could see why now you'regoing to have a whole bunch of
people listening to this podcastgo in and stretching programs
because they don't grabattention.
But I could see that these kindof niche, supportive type
workouts, like grip training,could be for improving your
deadlift or for strongman or youknow the jungle gym style like
I forget the name, but you knowthe ninja style training and
stuff like that.

(15:57):
I know data is a big part ofthis app on the back end.
Are you able to collect somesort of information or data not
private data, obviously, butjust patterns from the community
workouts right now, like areyou you know, without revealing
any trade secrets or anything?
Are you able to analyze that inany way, because it's a big
source of potential informationon how people think about

(16:20):
programming?

Yeah, to be honest, we haven't been able to focus
too much on the analytic side ofthe programming yet at a very
in-depth, detailed level, Iwould say the type of analysis
that we ran have shown, forexample, programs that are three
days a week tend to have thehighest retention for people to
stay connected to programs.

(16:43):
We actually ran a prettyinteresting analysis over a year
ago on the most popularprograms.
We did run a pretty interestinganalysis a while back just
comparing the starting WinRAMaccess for users on different
programs and an aggregate levelversus other programs.
I can share you a link where weshare the findings with the

(17:06):
community afterwards, but thatwas like a one-time exercise.
That I thought was pretty coolbecause you know how, like when
you go to Reddit and you searchprogram reviews, you'll find a
lot of anecdotal evidence forprograms and oftentimes the most
brutal programs that peopleactually stick to end up having

(17:29):
the best results.
But it doesn't necessarily meanit's the best program for the
general population.
So by able to see the startingone-run maxes and the drop-offs
across different weeks, you canreally see some interesting
analysis on, okay, what programscreate the best results but

(17:49):
also have the highest retention,so that people can actually
follow through with them.

Yeah, yeah.
That's a really great pointBecause we talk about
sustainability and all thisstuff, nutrition as well, and I
could see two curvesintersecting, one being like how
effective it is for driving upyour 1RM and one being how
effective it is that you'regoing to stick with it.
Where's the sweet spot?
Where's the sweet spot for,like, the average person?
And so maybe you have a filterlike how gritty are you with

(18:15):
sticking to really hard programs, you know, on a scale of one to
five, and then, like, based onyour you know level of pain that
you're willing to suffer, youknow not, not really to make it
sound that way it would give youthe right program, way, it
would give you the right program.
That's a really great pointbecause we were joking again
about the program I'm running.
Now, when you look at thereviews, you'll see a lot of
folks are like I got three weeksin and then they post their
review Like you got to give itmore time, and then we'll see.

Yeah, we should consider changing that.
I mean we prompt users to givea review about three to four
weeks in, and then you know theycan choose not to leave a
review about three to four weeksin and then you know they can
choose not to leave a review.
But yeah, I mean the reviewsreally become more helpful, like
later on, right, if for peopleto actually stick onto the
program.
But then at the same time, if aprogram is too hard and most

(18:59):
people are dropping off on weekthree, that probably means that
the program you know might notbe the best program for a lot of
people.
So it's hard to say, yeah, thepeople, so it's hard to say yeah
.

The weird ones are the ones where they're like five
stars.
I'm three weeks in.
This looks like it'd be greatfor growing my legs and it's
like a wishful statement, as iflike but they're not going to
continue.

Yeah.

But for you watching, you know, looking at
the app it could be great.
No, it's pretty cool.
I mean, I love analytics.
I know we can always gooverboard, like overanalyzing
data, but I did want tounderstand how the basic
analytics available, such assets per week or any other
metrics that you think arehelpful.
Let me put it this way what arethe top one or two types of

(19:38):
analytics people maybe shouldlook at?
That informs their training andmaybe any modifications they
should make.

I mean I think people should.
I mean, your question is aroundhow you should track your
progress really, and I thinkthat actually goes beyond the
app.
At the first level, I would sayyou know if your goal is weight
loss or bulking, you shouldlook at the scale, so you know

(20:05):
that's probably the mostimportant factor you know you
should look at and then followedby probably the mirror as well,
although that can varydepending on lighting, how you
feel and all that kind of stuffas well.
But beyond those two veryobvious and important factors in
the app itself, I would say atthe workout level, it's really

(20:26):
helpful to just look at theweights and reps that you
completed.
You know from your previousworkouts, right?
That's the most obvious thingthat I think any basic app
should be able to offer.
So being just even trackingeven for me, someone who's been
lifting for over a decade, Ifind just being able to track

(20:47):
how many reps I did, you knowacross my three sets, lat
pulldown or any single exercise,just really helps me remember
my progress.
So if I know last week I did 12reps, then maybe for this week
I'll try to do 13 reps, right,and if I'm at the top of my
range, maybe I'll try toincrease the weight.
So just being able to see thatprogress over time from the

(21:12):
number of sets you're doing andthe weight that you're doing and
the reps, is just supercritical, I think.
And then, if you have the basicsdown like that, then I would
say some other analytics that wenow provide in the app.
That's very interesting.
You can see your total workoutvolume over time.
So tonnage, your tonnage, yep,so you can see how that changes

(21:35):
throughout the year, you know,is it increasing, is it
decreasing?
Then you can analyze oh okay,like, how's my body weight also
training during this period?
How's my results trending right?
Because more volume doesn'tnecessarily mean I mean you know
this better than I do morevolume is always better and less
volume is always better.
There's a lot of variables, youknow.
In that it's very somethingthat you really need to think

(21:57):
through.
And then some other analyticsthat we offering.
The app that I find to be quitebespoke to bootcamp is the
muscle engagement tracker.
So I'm sure you, I'm sureyou've seen this as at the end
of every workout and if you goto the analytics tab you'll see
this.

You know, big muscle guy yeah, yeah, the sets,
the sets that you targeted eachmuscle right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that feature was so.
Eric helms and bryce lewishelped us develop this feature
and it's super cool because itshows you your actual volume,
done by muscle group, and thevolume is actually calculated
based on effective volume.
So, for example, when you do aset of bench press, you're using

(22:42):
your chest, your front deltsand your triceps, but you're not
using the muscle 100%, you know, for the entire exercise, right
?
So your effective volume mightbe 100% chest I can't remember
the exact breakdown, but youknow we have it by hundreds of
exercises.
That's calculated, that'sinputted, with the help of Bryce

(23:03):
and Eric for that.
But it could be like 100% chest, could be 60% front delts and
80% your triceps.
We do that for like everysingle exercise that you do.
So by having it broken down indetail and being able to see
that over weeks, you canactually calculate and see the
volume that you're performingfor each muscle group over time,

(23:26):
which I think is a very goodindicator of whether you're
under training a muscle overtraining a muscle.
Even for me, when I see it, I'mlike, oh, okay, like I'm not
doing.
Oh, I'm like I'm not doing alot of work on my rear delts or
I'm not doing a lot of work onmy calves.

I was going to say calves.
That's the one that often comesup.
It's like at the bottom right.

Exactly, yeah, man, so that's a really cool feature
, I think, in terms of analyticsat a deeper level for people
that are interested.

Actually I think I agree.
That's one of the ones I lookat a lot only because it prompts
you at the end of the workoutand then at the end of the week
there's like a weekly report andon a program where volume is
changing as part of theprogression, it helps to see
that, okay, my quad sets areactually going up.
You know they go up a third andthen a third and then they drop

(24:16):
back.
And we know from the evidenceright that, and this constantly
is getting refined.
But Jeff Alberts was on theshow and kind of confirmed it
again.
You know, godfather of naturalbodybuilding, that 10 to 20 sets
is generally recommended aspretty solid for a good training
program.
But you could get an effectiveworkout as low as five to 10,
depending on how hard you'retraining and what you respond to
.
And then the idea of variationthroughout the year is helpful

(24:39):
too, because you mentionedlooking at your cumulative
volume over the year.
I think that's helpful as wellif you need to vary it up, if
you're like I've gone through asix-month high volume phase, now
I'm going to go through asix-month low volume phase.
Like you said, it's notnecessarily high or low, that's
better.
It might be that you need highand then you need low to get the
response.
So I'm just kind of playing offthat as how helpful that kind

(25:00):
of data can be for folks.

Yeah, I actually had a pretty interesting chat
with Eric about this because Iwas about to start a cut after a
pretty serious powerlifting andbulking phase, and I was asking
him is it possible to gainmuscle cut?
Because the general consensus,I guess, is you can't, but the
answer is actually a lot morenuanced.
So it's possible if you're abeginner at certain muscle

(25:28):
groups.
So, for example, right, I wasdoing powerlifting for like two
years like pretty seriously,like only squat, bench and
deadlift, so I never reallyseriously worked my shoulders
and my rear delts.
I feel like that's somethingthat I'm definitely still a
beginner at.
So if I focus my program onproviding more training volume

(25:48):
towards my delts, as opposed tomuscles that I'm already pretty
advanced at, like my back and mychest, perhaps I can actually
make muscular progress during mycut and by using the muscle
volume tracker, I'm able to lookat how my volume is distributed
during my cut to focus more onthe developed muscle groups
where I can actually makeprogress.

Oh, that's awesome.
That's actually perfect timing.
I was talking to a lifterfriend of mine last week about
can you get newbie gains whenyou're not a newbie, and we were
talking about that idea of likethere's aspects of your
development and the way youtrain that are new or you've
detrained.
Like if you've been doingpowerlifting for a long time,
you might be detrained with alot of other muscles because you
haven't hit them throughhypertrophy workouts.

(26:31):
So for those listening likethis is awesome, right, it's be
smart about when you go on a cutand what kind of program you
follow.
That might be the perfect timeto go after an underdeveloped
muscle group because, assumingyou don't go more than like 500
calorie deficit because that's,I think, decent cutoff in the
literature of where it becomesreally hard to build new muscle
Keep it moderate and go aftertargeted muscle groups that are

(26:53):
weak spots.
That's a great tip, man, that'sgood.
So back to you were talkingabout like 5-3-1 and you know
there's other programs that ifyou're kind of a newer lifter,
they're a little bit complicated.
You don't quite understand withthe undulation and the block
periodization and all that.
How does the app, for example,make them more approachable
without like oversimplifying,like still make it the actual

(27:13):
program.
How would you say they do that?

yeah, well, the beauty is the app first, as you
mentioned earlier, has anoverview section where we
explain in detail the structureof the program, the philosophy
behind the program, and you canalso scroll over.
If you go to the website or ifyou go to the program structure

(27:38):
section of the program, you cansee how the program looks week
by week, with the differentexercises, the sets, the
percentages for each week.
So you can still get thehigh-level overview.
But where it really keepsthings simple for the user is
you click Start Program, onboardProgram and then you just enter

(27:59):
your OneRAM access and itcalculates, it populates all
your future weeks for you sothat you don't have to do any
jiggering.
And you don't have to do anyjiggering and you don't have to
figure out.
You know how to use aspreadsheet, you know to make
this program run for youautomatically.
So that's where we try to keepthings understandable and you

(28:22):
know, especially for thebeginning of the program, but
also make it super simple forsomebody who's not familiar with
, you know, the 5-3-1 structureto just click start, figure out
their starting weights, in which, during the All-Borning 2, we
have like a 1-RAM-Max calculatorwhere they can enter the
exercise and then it willcalculate the 1-RAM-Max for them

(28:42):
so that, even if they havenever done 1-RAM-Max before,
they can figure it out and thenjust start the workout, because
you know you don't want to befudging around.
You want to make it harder byyou know, trying to be a
computer scientist, work aprogram that's for somebody like
me.

I get it.
I'm like this is too easy.
I I used to have to spend 10minutes at least walking around
my house like fudging with mynext workout.
Now it's just like there.
Oh no, I had to find somethingelse to do with my time.
No, that's good.
I noticed the program also hasall this stuff.
People like RPE and you knowpercent, 1rm and all the
different types of ways likeMRAPs and such.
So you know we don't have toget in all the features like.

(29:16):
Somebody can go Google, likeBoostCamp, and see all that Rest
timers, warm up calculators,all that fun stuff's in there.
What I was curious about, likeI mentioned this earlier, what
is the human element that is thehardest to replicate?
Do you think that maybe is inthe program or isn't yet in the
program that you would love tosee in there?

Yeah, that's a great question.
While it's really difficult toreplicate the personal
connection that you get from acoach, I've had some really
great coaching in the past whereyou know it's not just the
programming that a coachprovides for you right, it's the
mental support that you getfrom having somebody to cheer

(29:59):
you on, to motivate you when youhave a bad workout, when you
miss a PR attempt.
Have a bad workout when youmiss a PR attempt.
That element is definitelysomething that we don't yet have
in Boostcamp.
That you know in an app formatthat you get, you know, from a
coach.
You know the things that we tryto do to replicate a little bit

(30:19):
of that.
It's like, okay, we havestreaks, you know we're going to
have badges in the future aswell, the launch community
features.
You know we have all these data,you know, to try to keep people
motivated, but you'redefinitely missing that human
element of motivation from justhaving a coach to stay with you

(30:40):
during the tougher times.
So that part I would say ispretty.
You know it's pretty hard toreplicate, but it's also pros
and cons, right.
So if a coach you know, if yourchoice is between getting a
trainer at a gym, pop gym whoyou know.
I mean, I used to go to Equinox.

(31:00):
It's like this fancy gym andyou know the first thing that be
.
I always see trainers getbeginners to do the most
complicated exercises like aone-hand snatch or whatever,
right, but it's almost likethey're trying to confuse them,
to make them use a trainer yeah,like you need me, you need me.

This is so complicated.
You need me, right?
Is that what you're saying me?

yeah, because I don't want to lose a client
right and you know, oftentimes,you know, I find that the
clients don't make any progressover a very long period of time,
whereas if they actually followa proven program from Boostcamp
or from the internet, fromanywhere, they would actually
make a lot better results.
So there's definitely pros andcons to having a coach.

(31:42):
I mean in the app.
We definitely want to figureout more gamification elements
to help people stay motivated inabsence of a coach.

Yeah, that's always a tough one, right?
Because people want to balance,they don't want too many
notifications popping up gettingin the way of their workouts,
but at the same time, they wanta reason to go in.
I mean, for me, the reason togo in is just get big and strong
, and if you're following aneffective program, it should do
that for you.
But anyway, oh man, what was Igoing to ask?
Oh, you mentioned already acouple interesting findings or

(32:14):
tips from other coaches you'veworked with.
I'm just curious if you haveany more things like that where
you've, since you starteddeveloping the app, you've added
a feature or a way that itcalculates information or what
have you based on what theseexpert coaches have shared with
you in working with them?
Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think the programs.
So when we first launched theapp, we were digitizing a lot of
popular programs from theinternet onto the app and now,
as we work with coaches, moreand more to develop exclusive
programs on the app.
You know you can think of likea Netflix special, but for you

(32:54):
know BoostGam original type ofthing.
But as we looked at, okay, whattype of programs people love
the most, what type of programshave the best retention are, you
know they're typically programsthat change in structure over
time.
So instead of just having aprogram that looks the same week

(33:16):
after week, there's elements ofthe program that changes.
So, for example, a 12-weekprogram might be broken down
into three phases ofintroductory volume,
accumulation, intensification oryou know the reps and the RPEs
or percentages if there arepercentages change over time

(33:36):
Just having more progression inthe program itself.
You know we found peoplegenerally like that a lot and
they tend to want to stick tothe program instead of it's
almost like a freshness to it.
Right that you start programhopping.
They can still enjoy thatfreshness without having to

(33:56):
switch the program and lose allthe progression that they will
be making.
So you know that's definitely abig one that we learned hey,
just wanted to give a shout outto Philip.

Jerry (34:07):
I personally worked with Philip for about eight months
and I lost a total of 33 poundsof scale weight and about five
inches off my waist.
Two things I really enjoy aboutworking with Philip is number
one he's really taking the timeto develop a deep expertise in
nutrition and also resistancetraining, so he has that depth.
If you want to go deep on thelies with Philip, but if also if

(34:30):
you want to just kind of getsome instruction and more
practical advice and a plan onwhat you need to do, you can
pull back and communicate atthat level.
Also, he is a lifter himself,so he's very familiar with the
performance and body compositiongoals that most lifters have.
And also Philip is trained inengineering, so he has some very

(34:51):
efficient systems set up tomake the coaching experience
very easy and very efficient andyou can really track your
results and you will have realdata when you're done working
with Philip and also have accessto some tools likely that you
can continue to use.
If all that sounds interestingto you.
Philip, like all good coaches,has a ton of free information

(35:11):
out there and really encourageyou to see if he may be able to
help you out.
So thanks again, Philip.

That is a very, very big one, and you're hitting
on spots that I've personallybeen thinking a lot about lately
.
And we talked about 531.
We talked about Bromley.
He loves base and peak phases.
I've seen myself like, if I'mjust going to do the same lifts
for week after week after weekafter week, I'm like I need
something.
Just for my mental health.
I need something different.
Even if you're like, no, youjust got to grind it out, you

(35:40):
know, just just keep doing setsof five forever.
Right, I'm like, well, as ahuman, it's not going to work.
So I think that's big and it'simportant for people to
understand that that sense ofvariety itself is a driver of
growth.
Like you know, the fact thatyou have, like you said,
different rep ranges, differentpercentages.
Your body gets exposed to thesethings and that is a huge

(36:01):
driver of growth.
So I love that.
You mentioned that.
I think people should look forthat when they're thinking of
can I stick with this programfor like four months, as opposed
to having to hop around everyfour weeks to a new program
because it's getting stale.
So I love that.

One more thing I would mention too is just having
more personalization elementsin the app.
So when we first started weonly had programs from coaches
and then we found that, okay,people want to be able to switch
to different exercises, want toswap to their own exercises.
So you know, having that beingable to modify existing programs

(36:37):
we found to be very important.
And then taking a bigger stepis being able to create their
own custom programs.
So I mean generally for newerlifters, I don't recommend it.
If they have a coach, likeyourself you know, who's very
knowledgeable, great right, youcan create a program for them in
the app and send it to them tofollow.
But for general beginner, evennovice lifters, I would

(37:00):
recommend they stick to apre-made program for them,
because you don't know what youdon't know.
So you could be wasting yourtime thinking of the best
program and you switch thatevery few weeks and at the end
you end up making no progress.
But having the program creatorI found to be another important
feature in the app for peoplethat are tired of following a

(37:24):
program or they actually movedon to being intermediate or
advanced lifter and they want tofollow their own programming.
So having that feature we alsofound to be very important
keystone feature in the app thatwe didn't really think about
when we first started BoostGap.

And I'm very glad it's in there, or else I
wouldn't find it usable, like mepersonally, because I need to
swap things out and when itcomes to accessory lifts and
equipment availability, it givesyou a lot more flexibility and
then you can swap it out andhave it apply to future workouts
, which I, like you know.
Once you swap it, it's like doyou want to keep this for the
future ones?
Yes, let's do that.
The thing about programming ingeneral, I think what we're

(38:01):
revealing through thisconversation is, you know,
programming itself is a skilland everybody needs a different
entry point and I think a goodtool can help do that, whether
it's Boostcamp or there's othertools, obviously, but kind of
making it easy to jump in and dosomething effective.
It's funny you mentioned likepre-made programs, because
sometimes people denigratetemplates and programs, but in

(38:25):
reality I think most beginnerscan follow a number of templates
just fine and make massiveprogress and not overthink it
and then start to learn oh, thisworks for me, this doesn't, let
me tweak it.
I think a really good coachthat comes in like if I have a
new client that's never liftedbefore, I'm probably going to
get them on a very standardprogram.
It might be my template, butit's still.
I'm not going to highlycustomize it because I have no

(38:47):
clue how they're going torespond.
So if you're doing this foryourself and you like, download
Boostcamp, think of that, justget into it, have fun, try it
out and you'll know prettyquickly if it's for you and if
not.
There's a million other ways todo it.
I want to ask you I knowthere's a premium version and
I've seen that there are someprograms labeled as pro.
What's the difference withthose versus the free programs?

Yeah, well, as we launched so many free programs
on the app.
We still launch all freeprograms, to be clear, but we
now have premium only programs.
So these are programs where wepartner with a coach to deliver
a lot more in-depth programming.
So, for example, in the ParisButler ball-dominant program,

(39:31):
he's written a really complexprogram, Easy to follow but
complex in terms of all thenotes that he provides.
We talk about.
You know changes within aprogram.
You know he's programmingprogressions.
You know for every single weekhe's filming detailed
instructional videos.

(39:51):
You know to go along with theprogram.
So you can think of them as away for us to offer almost like
coaching in some ways.
Just you know a lot morepersonalized programming to help
people, you know, get theresults they want.

Yeah, that ties well with what we were saying
before and I didn't realize the.
You're right, the instructionalvideos can be customized
because the default library it'slike you know you go to Barbell
Backsquat.
It has kind of a silhouetteanimation of a back squat and
what you're saying is maybethere's more custom YouTube
videos linked in there, whereverthe video comes from, in the
pro programs and again, forpeople listening, like there's a

(40:31):
ton of programs available forfree.
It's just you may find othersthat you really want that are in
pro, even the one I'm followingnow.
I'm a premium subscriber butit's free because it's the one I
wanted to follow.
All right, man, is thereanything else you wanted to chat
about regarding either the appor programming or lifting in
general?
You know I didn't bring you onhere as like a lifting expert or
program expert.

I'm definitely not.

But you've learned a lot, just like I have like,
through the grapevine andthrough your relationship.
So is there anything else thatyou wish I had asked or you want
people to understand about allof this?
Maybe the future of where thistechnology is going, or
something else?

all of this, maybe the future of where this
technology is going or somethingelse.
Yeah, I mean, I would say wereally listen to user feedback
and we develop new features veryquickly compared to, you know,
a lot of other app developers.
You know we are very involved,like I answer, you know, every
single user email.
You know our subreddit.

(41:28):
You know I try to answer userquestions and participate in
community discussions.
So all of the features and allthe programs that we've
developed on the app has beenthrough community engagement and
feedback from users likeyourself.
So you know to the extent thatanybody has any feedback for the

(41:49):
app.
You know we're always listeningand, you know, willing to
iterate and experiment anddevelop.
You know, to make BoostCampbetter.
I guess from your perspectivenow, having used BoostCamp for
quite a while for yourself andyou mentioned you've sent
programs to your clients as well, like you know what's your
experience been like and what doyou wish that we had yeah, man,

(42:10):
good way.

Turning it back on me.
I mean, little things come upall the time, as they always do.
No app is perfect, right?
There's always things, probablywith when you customize an
existing program, maybe just theinterface being a little more
intuitive.
That's a minor thing, like Iwas able to figure it out like
less than a day.
Obviously it's figureoutable,but, uh, all of these things can

(42:31):
be like less taps, lessconfusion of how you do it.
That's the only thing thatcomes to mind, cause I think
it's an amazing app and again, Iuse it.
So, but I love that you do that.
Like I use macro factor as well.
Right the stronger by scienceguys, the same thing.
They have a reddit and facebookgroup and they're like they got
their roadmap planned out andeverything and they're listening
to folks.
So as long as you're doing that, we know it's going to improve,

(42:52):
even if there's things thatpeople might have frustrations
with now and, and that's that'sthe thing yeah, I mean the tough
balance to juggle here is we'recatered to both lifting
enthusiasts and also completebeginners.

So when you talk about lifting enthusiasts
especially those that are comingfrom like a spreadsheet, you
need to have the advancedfunctionalities for them to
create and edit programs as theywould in like a Google Sheet.
But then if you have all thosefunctionalities laid out, then

(43:28):
it's going to be extremelyconfusing to beginners who just
want to get started working out.
They don't want to be learninga brand new technology.
So that's always like thestruggle.
Think about the UI, ux of theapp when we have requests from
people.
Like you know, we have somerequests from users on like

(43:51):
really advanced analytics, right, or like a really niche feature
that maybe 0.1% of people willactually use.
You know, is that somethingthat's more worthwhile
developing versus another thingthat you know it's more simple,
that benefits more people?
And so it's always a struggleto try to figure out like, okay,
what makes sense, what doesn'tmake sense.

(44:13):
Like we just launched somethinglike for swap exercise that
helps a small niche of programsbut negatively impacts other
programs.

Oh yeah, that happens right when you do an
upgrade and people are like whathappened to this thing?
I relied on all this time.

It went away, yeah exactly, and what we thought was
going to be improvement and itis improvement for certain use
cases is actually a detriment inthe other use cases.
So there's just so manydifferent demographics that we
got to think about, and when youpush out an update now, it's
going out to hundreds ofthousands of people.
So it's something that, as wescale, we have to be very

(44:50):
thoughtful in terms of whatcomes out, what doesn't come out
.
How do we prioritize differentfeatures and different designs?

Yeah, sometimes the feature's there and the user
just takes a little more playingaround to find it.
Sometimes there's secret menustoo.
I don't think yours has a lotof those.
But I'll talk to you offlineabout one thing I'm thinking of
and see if you could tell me howto do it differently, cause it
could be me.

Okay, yeah.

Yeah, it's a minor thing.
Again, I love the app.
I think this is awesome.
I think the way that, like onyour landing page, it says like
the best app for lifters andwhen I first saw that I'm like
that's a bold claim to makebecause there are a million apps
out there, but the fact that,as a lifter myself, it does the
things I wanted to do and maybethere's competitive apps that do
that as well You're on theright path and I'm happy to

(45:36):
shout it from the rooftops andrecommend you guys.
So those listening right now.
Again, it sounds kind of likean infomercial, but it's because
it's a helpful app and you'retrying to lift and get jack,
swole, strong, lean, whateverthe word is you'd like to use.
You know, go download the app.
I'll throw the links into thesubreddit as well.
I think that would be cool.
Boost camp itself and anywhereelse you want people to find you
uh, yeah, I mean I would justsay the.

The website and the subreddit are, uh, you know,
the two places we're most active.
Yeah, I recommend you check outthe website and play around
with the different filters tolook at different programs.
You know we talked earlierabout the community programs,
which I think you know.
There's some pretty hilariousprograms out there that people
are creating and publishing.

(46:19):
You know we're definitelythinking about better ways to
display new programs as wellincentivize users to create more
programs.
I think we've done a prettygood job so far with the product
building and making the appuseful.
I still think we're very earlyon in terms of our ultimate
vision of making the bestlifting app out there.

Awesome, man, and, honestly, one of the best things
I learned about you todaybefore we recorded was this is
your first podcast as a guestappearance, which I'm very happy
to have you on Right Is thatright First, and it shows that
you're like a guy behind thescenes that just wants to get it
done.
You're not necessarily outthere to just, you know, promote
an app, so I think that speaksvolumes.
Thanks, man, for coming on.
It was definitely a lot of fun.
I think the listeners get a lotfrom the show.

Yeah, no.
Thanks for being a great host,preparing the great questions.
You made the first podcastappearance very easy.

Cool, awesome, awesome, awesome.
Except I told you something inthe app that needs to be fixed.
Shouldn't have done that,because honestly, I love the app
.

I mean there's.
We get tons of emails abouttons of things that need to be
fixed, so I'm sure.
Yeah, I'm no stranger to thatCool man, All right.

thanks for coming on.

Okay, thanks, philip, great chatting.

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My Favorite Lifting App for Evidence-Based Workouts (Michael Liu) | Ep 247

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}My Favorite Lifting App for Evidence-Based Workouts (Michael Liu) | Ep 247