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May 3, 2023 38 mins

As a Culture and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I) practitioner, Kim Flanery-Rye shared her insights on creating a positive culture in organizations during the podcast. She emphasized that leaders should prioritize culture from the beginning, rather than considering it as an afterthought. Kim pointed out that while culture may vary between organizations, it plays a significant role in their success. In smaller organizations, C-level executives have a more direct influence on culture, making it easier to observe and manage. Meanwhile, in larger organizations, creating and maintaining a positive culture may be more challenging due to their size and structure. 

The podcast's discussion primarily revolved around gender parity in the workplace and how to audit and address systemic issues that prevent women from succeeding in their careers. We discussed the "leaky pipeline" or "leaky faucet" phenomenon, where women's representation decreases as we move up the leadership positions. We also talked about various factors that may contribute to women leaving their careers, such as the pay gap, lack of parental leave support, and other systemic issues that make it difficult for women to succeed. 

We also discussed how women tend to do more event organizing, diversity and inclusion work, and join more ERG groups than men. However, these efforts are often undervalued and not compensated during annual reviews or promotion time, leading to the "leaky pipeline" phenomenon. As a result, mid-level women tend to leave the workforce to start their own businesses due to the difficulty of breaking through the glass ceiling, caregiving responsibilities that still tend to fall on women, and burnout. Finally, we discussed how the World Economic Forum is a platform where discussions about gender equity, climate change, poverty, and justice are happening, and there is a lot of action being taken to address these issues. 


When MyKimisms Founder, Kim “Kimfer” wasn’t offered a chair on the board, she created one. Kim is the first-ever elected VP of DEI to the Board of Directors in over 70 chapters across the nation for the

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello everyone and welcome tothe Women Career and Life
podcast.
This is your host, Dr.
Sirisha Kuchimanchi, a formertech executive at Texas
Instruments, a Fortune 200company, a speaker, a working
mom, and an ever reader.
In this podcast, you will hearstories and practical advice for
you to achieve your career andlife goals.

(00:23):
I also wanna say a big thank youto our listeners for continuing
to support this podcast andmaking it in the top 30% of
Spotify podcasts.
If you wanna continue to supportthis indie produced show, you
can either buy me a cup of chai,I am not a coffee drinker, or
you can become a monthly orannual sub.
You will find more informationin the show notes.

(00:45):
I'm so excited to have Kim forFlannery Rice.
She's joining us from Seattleand she looks amazing.
I just love her look right now,and we connected over LinkedIn
and other avenues, and I'veheard her speak in other forums,
including Linda.
LinkedIn live sessions a seat atthe table.
So Kim, for thank you for beinghere.

(01:06):
I wanted to dive in and reallylearn about what your journey
has been because you are a bigadvocate for the de and I space.
You have what you're called yourKim citizens, and you have your
idea ways of doing processes andbasically systems for
organizations to onboard and bevery effective in that de and i
space.

(01:26):
So gimme some backstory on howyou got.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for invitingme to speak with you today.
I think, for me, my backgroundis pretty interesting in the
sense that I did not have alinear process in how I got
here.
I have had experiences in.
Creative fields.

(01:46):
I actually have my background inmy bfa, bachelor of Fine Arts
and was a painter in the past.
And but my career path wasalways interesting that while my
artist artistry was happening,my career path was definitely
more in I would say industry.
I worked for places likeT-Mobile.
I've been a vice president and.

(02:07):
Creative director for a B2Bdigital marketing agency.
That last bit I think is whatreally helped transition me into
what I am today, which is a d eI and culture practitioner.
Especially when I was in thatagency, I was really focused on
creating culture for my team.
We had a really phenomenalfounders that were really

(02:28):
focused on that, and I had theopportu.
To really build a creative teamfrom the ground up.
And during that process, reallylooking at diversity as an
important aspect.
And also if we're puttingtogether marketing and PR and
all of that ar area ofadvertising, making sure that we

(02:50):
are not tokenizing people andthat we're really looking at it
from a inclusive and.
Perspective.
And so switching from that as aprimary, being a creative first
and then looking at from cultureand d e I as a lens and flipping
that to now being d e i as theprimary and really looking at
brands and culture andorganizations was a pretty easy

(03:12):
shift for me.
and as someone who also haveexperienced poverty twice in my
lifetime before I was in the ageof 15 from the first time in
South Korea before I was adoptedinto the Midwest farm community
here in Iowa and experienced thefarm crisis in the.
early eighties, so I think thatjust helped me look at all these

(03:36):
different intersections fromwhat it's like to be not only
someone who looks like me, buthave had various experiences and
intersections in my life.
It's a very transitionaljourney, right?
Through what you experience as ayoung adult, a child, and then
going through all thetransitions you've had.
You touched on something that Ithought was very important.

(03:56):
You talked about organization,cultures, there's a lot of
discussion around culturesleaving aside that there's
layoffs going on and people areincredibly impacted, especially
people who are from here who areon visas, a lot of change going
through.
during Covid, cultures like Uberand with Tesla and Twitter,
there's a lot of culture piecesgoing on and how leaders show
up, how they engage theirorganiz.

(04:19):
how they just set up systemsthat support them.
I think it would be insightfulto see how, from two aspects,
like if you have a very massiveorganization, what small changes
can you make so that tricklesdown.
And for someone who's startingup thinking of, say, starting a
company or on their founders orentrepreneur journey, what
should I be thinking right offthe bat?

(04:39):
oftentimes we think of cultureas a later aspect.
When I.
but in some ways you need to doit right from your first hire so
that you set that up.
what is some guidance you haveon that space?
Yeah, absolutely.
I love this phrase that'sprobably many people are
familiar with but it's calledculture Eat Strategy for
Breakfast.

(05:00):
And I've seen that over and overagain in organizations where
they may have the strongest Mayhave really strong metrics and
things like that, but theculture of the organization and
leaders who understand thatculture is an important aspect
that you have to be reallymindful of.
It really shows up differently Ithink from organization to

(05:21):
organization.
And for me I would say if youare a startup, It's the most
opportune time to really thinkabout it from the start.
Oftentimes when you are astartup, you are busy wearing so
many hats and you're a smallteam, so you often think oh, I
don't have to worry about that.
Culture is something that youhave to do when you're really

(05:42):
large, like you reference, butthat actually is not true.
It is really.
Thoughtfully have to be donebecause culture has its mind of
its own is what I say, is thatif you aren't really thoughtful
about how you approach yourculture, it will be implicit
culture rather than explicitculture.

(06:03):
It's what people pick up and howthey decide to show up and do
things.
That makes it.
What it ends up being.
And so I would say smallerorganization, it is definitely
way easier to see because your Clevel often will have such a
strong impact on thatorganization as you get into a

(06:23):
bigger organization.
You're talking about like thelarge enterprises.
Like the Microsofts and theAmazons and things like that in
the world, and especially mebeing in Seattle, those are two,
two of the biggest organizationshere.
You do see that leadership canmake a big difference, satya,
when he came over in Microsoftseveral years ago, it was pretty

(06:46):
amazing to watch a huge ship.
Like Microsoft making its shiftsbecause of that leader.
But what's interesting withthese large enterprises is that
every people manager createsmicrocultures.
Again, intentionally or notintentionally.
And so it's more dependentsometimes obviously the leader

(07:08):
the c e o, they have to haveintentional culture approach,
and that strength of that has tojust reverberate down through
each of the different businessunits the leadership within
them.
Without it, then you do, you endup creating.
Fractured microcultures that donot represent what you want as a

(07:30):
whole as a company.
Very true.
I, there's this saying that goesright, you join a job for a
company, but you often leave itbecause of your boss or your
culture microculture, as youdescribed.
Yeah.
That's what defines us, becausethat's all we get to see.
You rarely interface with thatceo.
So what can people in thismicrocosm, both as individuals

(07:51):
and like management do whenthey're doing this?
Yeah.
It def definitely depends on ifyou are thinking about it with
culture in mind.
And for me, culture and d e Iare intricately combined.
They're not something, I thinkoftentimes people confuse
diversity, equity, and inclusionas a program.

(08:11):
Something that you do on this.
Side, but everything aboutculture is impacted by all the
things that you do.
And you can't just leave d e Iover there just saying, Hey,
it's a personal learningjourney, and that's what we do.
You have to think about itreally in a systemic way and
systems-based way within anorganization.
And for managers and peoplepeople, leaders in general.

(08:36):
I think it's really important tounderstand that intersection of
D E I.
The more you understand that andthen have really strong
emotional intelligence, right?
EQ and that idea that you bringall of that together is really
what looks at culture from thestart.
So what you were talking about,people leave.

(08:56):
because of the managers thatthey have.
So how are you showing up as anadvocate for your employees?
I say that managers inherentlyhave to be allies, and so how
are you showing up as an allyfor your people and how
thoughtfully are you reallythinking about cultivating your

(09:16):
culture and how it's aligning tothe company's mission and vision
and values?
the manager sets the tone in somany ways because it can be in
that meeting, in the staffmeeting when someone tries to
speak up and they're not heardand you're not advocating for
them or giving them their spaceor reinforcing the idea.
Or maybe the idea isn't what youthink it should be, but you
could have that conversationoffline.

(09:37):
It's how you come across thetone of voice, the language you.
that people see you showing upand sometimes it's nipping it in
the bud when someone.
doesn't behave what you think isthe right cultural aspect so
that it's dealt with and peoplesee it because there's always
this fine line, you work rightabout doing it in public versus
private, and each is a nuancedapproach.

(09:58):
Totally.
I get that.
But sometimes you have to makecertain stances in certain
forums just because peopleunderstand what the culture of
the organization is, while beingincredibly respectful of
everybody and everybody, thesystems.
Because you, you can easilyforget that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's the main thing aboutculture is like, You can have

(10:18):
the most beautiful valueswritten and you have posters all
around your organization, but ifno one's following them because
of implicit culture, so explicitculture, like I said, you'll be
on your, maybe your handbooksand your values and all of that,
but the implicit culture is whatyou are just talking about.
Culture is where people identifya situation.

(10:39):
They will correct someone.
And then because they'recorrected, they will mimic and
then they will turn around andcoach someone else correct their
behavior, et cetera.
So it's like the circular thingthat happens.
That could be positive, right?
What you were just talkingabout.
Hey, stopping a meeting ifsomething is not going in the
right direction, and things likethat.
And being an advocate forsomeone.

(11:00):
Or you could be where they'rethe ones who s.
You know, the women in the roomor things like that.
So e can be mimicked in apositive or a negative way, but
that's literally what happens.
People watch.
It's that parental things peopletalk about.
It's not what you say, it's whatyou do really impacts in
organizations.

(11:21):
Yeah, very true.
I think there's a lot ofparallels in that, right?
How you run at home and at workin a lot of ways.
I had a guest, Elena Percival,she's a c e o co-founder of
Women Who Code, and she made thesame comment about setting your
culture early on.
Like the example she used is,when you're making those first
hires and someone needs parentalleave or is having a.

(11:44):
you, you need to have those sortof policies already thought of
because you can't wait to scaleand think about it, because
obviously you're thinking aboutit on the fly and you haven't
set the tone because there's somuch, it's great a lot of the
conversations that are going on,because obviously when I started
my corporate journey, thereweren't those conversations and.
To be frank, those thoughtsdidn't strike me then either.

(12:05):
It's as I step away from it thatI see more and more of what's
going on, and I'm glad to hearthem and be part of those
changes.
So when you're thinking ofculture, I think it's, if for
anyone listening, I think ifyou're starting something, think
of how you wanna set it up andto your systems and processes
that you are suggesting as wellon setting up not just a
guidebook, which you obviouslyneed.

(12:27):
but setting the tone and thatconversation constantly.
Absolutely.
And the earlier you can start,the better.
Which is why if you think aboutsome of the newer organizations
that if you think about it froma very d e I perspective, right?
So companies who started.
Maybe post George Floyd's murderare, have been better set up in

(12:48):
how they think about anti-racismin their organization versus
organizations that had to gobackwards and go, okay, what is
our stance?
What are we doing?
How do we do it?
And then how do we change oursystems?
This, it's something that's beenset for however many years.
It's so much harder to gobackwards to correct than it is
to just have it as a standardmoving forward.

(13:10):
And so I think that's thedifference between companies
that are just now starting.
Think about all of these thingsnow helps you to really be set
up to be successful.
Very true.
And it's something for us alsothink about it's, but to also if
you've been long established,it's never too late to correct
and.
I think to your point, D and Iis like the spy of your

(13:32):
organization.
It should be very much the coreof it, the culture.
It's not an initiative whichseems to be what's making the
headlines now as a initiative.
It's not a sidebar note that youwrite in your footnotes and your
CliffNotes Something that youshould make it absolutely make
it very much an integral part.
So when you're talking aboutsupporting, I think you, you
brought.
There is women supporting womenand men supporting women

(13:55):
allyship in both ways, but itdoes very often manifest itself
very differently because I thinkthere's this notion, and maybe,
I'm sure there may be some truthto it, that not all women
support women because we feellike we're fighting for us one
seat at that table that's thereand stuff that other nine seats
that are there.
So what can we do to manifestthis and how do we show up?

(14:17):
I think it's in all in thelittle things that we do.
Do you recommend your friend forthe job that you heard about but
you are not maybe the right fitfor?
And how do you advocate for themand put in a good word or
whatever other ways you thinkit, it works itself.
Yeah.
Sponsorship I think is extremelyimportant.
So I know there are people talkabout women need.
We need mentorship, obviously,but we need more than just

(14:40):
mentorship.
We need sponsorship.
And the main difference betweenthat is mentoring is this
relationship that you haveone-on-one with someone.
Maybe you have multiplerelationships, but it's really
that one-on-one.
And helping that individualsponsorship is then taking that
relationship that you have and.
Speaking about them openingdoors for them when they're not

(15:01):
in that room with you.
I think that is such animportant aspect.
So understanding whatsponsorship looks like and
knowing that it's not that wholeidea of it's, once you take one
slice, then.
that pie gets smaller.
There's, that's not actuallytrue.
We have to have to haveabundance mindset.

(15:22):
So if you are a woman who foughttheir way, which often we do,
fought your way to that oneseat, rather than trying to push
women back so that they don'ttake your seat.
What can you do really toadvocate, like you said, the
other nine seats that are there.
how can you get more seats openfor those women?

(15:43):
I think it's a lot easier if youhaven't.
Fight so hard in the past.
So if, again, same thing aboutorganizations starting now
versus older, you can change anytime during the whole process of
your history.
But think about it now is, areyou mentoring people and are you
doing more than mentoring?
Are you sponsoring people?

(16:03):
Because then it is reallyimportant then to make sure that
kind of environment.
Culture of women supportingwomen I think is super
important.
And what's interesting, like youtalked about your our
counterparts or maybe our maleallies also, sometimes even more
important because they oftenhave.

(16:24):
The more power and positionpower, there's more of them.
And so having them to reallyunderstand what their advocacy
and their sponsorship can looklike and show up, showing up, I
think is extremely important tomake sure that we have more
seats for women and hopefullyone of these days get some

(16:45):
gender parody out there.
And that's a.
important aspect.
And then I say also, if you're amentor, I mentor lots of
different women, and one of thethings that I require are out of
them is, are you able to committo mentor and sponsor others
when we are done with ourrelationship?
That you have to give back thatmentality of giving back.

(17:08):
I'm, hopefully I'm providing youthat time and energy you will
not need.
The whole time cuz you will alsogrow and will become peers.
We can be peer mentors, but thatmeans you have to give back and
find mentors of your own andsponsoring them into the next
level.
Yeah.
It's a great way to pass yourown knowledge and pass, I guess

(17:32):
a leave a legacy behind as well,right?
In some ways that is, and you'resetting the culture because you
are setting the expectations sothat's what.
that's what they implicitly knowthat they have to do.
And then it just goes forthgoing like that as they move
forward.
And when I think about it, theother aspect I'm thinking of it
is when we are talking aboutthese nine seats in one seat,

(17:53):
actually, frankly I do not wannahave this conversation or even
have to host this podcast right,because then next conversation
is completely unnecessary tohave.
That would be great.
I talk myself out of thispodcasting I do I'm okay with
that.
If it all reaches gender parityand I think there's this concept
of the leaky pipeline or thisleaky faucet that's moving I
think colleges, everything inthe statistics shows that

(18:15):
colleges women are around 50% ofthe graduates.
But as obviously as you go downthe chain or go up the chain as
you wanna look at it, it keepsreducing 40%, 20%, 3%, just the
gender parity decreases forvarious reasons.
One is as life changes andsituations come for support and
other reasons, they may make thedecision.
Sometimes it is driven by paygap discussions in a very broad

(18:38):
way.
they're trying to make childcareor pay decision saying, is it
worth going back to work,parental leave support.
There are so many other thingswe don't obviously think about
beyond just, Hey, I want to takecare of my children, which might
be the only aspect, or theremight be other nuanced
approaches driving thesedecisions.
So how do we.

(18:59):
I think individuals can growsome of it, but really what do
organizations do?
Like how do they audit, how dothey look at what it looks like
when they're doing these hiringpractices or growing the
leadership pipeline as they lookat it?
Yeah.
The leaky talent pipeline is, itis a reality.
We know this.
If you think about the women inthe world, we actually

(19:19):
outnumbered technically by men,but we know that about 80% I
think of.
Jobs out there are really men.
80% of men are in the talentpool Will, while only about 50
ish percent of women are in thetalent pool and leaving, and we
know right now too with that'sbeen going on.

(19:41):
They are leaving that mid-levelto high level women in
organizations are leavingfaster, especially post
pandemic.
I think, yeah, childcare isdefinitely one of those area,
but I think assuming thatchildcare is the only reason, I
think is also a disservice towomen in general.
There's so many systemic issueswithin organizations that have

(20:02):
been set up for women to notsucceed, and he was built that
way.
right?
The old boys network clubs, whathave you.
And also if you think about itin the sense of when women were
allowed, and I'm gonna use thatword, allowed to enter the job
fields that were beyondrudimentary, we don't have as

(20:23):
long of a history.
as men have to set up thatnetwork and doing all of that,
right?
So we are talking about from asystems perspective, when I come
into organizations, there are acouple of different things I
look at.
So when we're talking about froman hiring, so let's start with
the hiring perspective.
I look at it as where are thechoke points coming through?

(20:45):
Because there is, we knowthere's biases that get built
in.
So when we're looking at it, andI'm gonna use this general
numbers for right now, let's.
80% of your new position and andsubmissions that are coming in
are men and 20% are women.
Great.
Okay.
Not great, but I'm gonna usethat as an example.

(21:05):
So that's what's happening inthe first line of coming into a
company's job.
Then what you look at in thenext round is, okay, so who
makes it past that first round?
Is this still 80 20% or did itbecome 90 10 and then past that
into the final rounds?
Are you still at 80 20 or areyou at.

(21:27):
99 and 1%.
That's how you know that there'ssomething happening at a
systemic level within yourorganizations.
So looking at those kind ofdata, because most organizations
have data to know who came inwhere, who they said no to, and
who finally were provided arole.
And then from the otherperspective, once you're in the

(21:48):
organization, again, from anauditing perspective, looking at
organizations, you can look atan employee life cycle
reporting.
When were they hired?
When when were they provided apromotion?
Was it, you're looking fordeltas?
Were women having a slowerprogression in their career with

(22:09):
that promotion?
What about again, the salarygap?
In wage gap?
If you're thinking about everytime someone was provided a
salary increase, what was thedelta?
The male counterpart and thefemale counterpart, if we're
just looking at the binary ofthe two for right now.
And so those kind of reportingis really important to know not

(22:31):
only the frequency of the genderthat's being moved forward and
the difference in pay in whichthat's happening.
So when you're looking at thedata, you, it can tell you, oh
wow.
We have, for example, promotedJoe three times in the five
years while we.
Jane once in that five years.

(22:54):
Why?
Let's look at that.
Maybe it was individual, but isit systemic?
Is it happening across the boardin the gender divide and
thinking about, oh, okay.
So we look at our malecounterparts and say they have
an average of 5%.
Annually while the women aregetting 3% increase, that you

(23:15):
can look at it from a morebroad, systemic way in an
organization.
That's how you really checkorganizational approach in a
systems perspective of knowingis equity actually at play,
which is the e i, right?
the statistics show what men getpromoted like every year and a

(23:35):
half, and a woman I think everytwo to three years.
So absolutely.
It's a double thing, right?
Like you said, first of all,you're not getting the promotion
and your pay gap has two ways.
One is if you're not paidequally, but every time that
person gets promoted, they get ahike.
So the delta keeps growing froma different aspect.
It's not just a promotion, it'sthe opportunity and the sort of
the revenue, the impact also inthat standpoint, that's

(23:57):
constantly, creating this biggerand bigger gap.
Absolutely.
And that's where thesponsorship, like you said,
comes in.
Because if you're not talkingabout the women and advocating
for them, or even thinking aboutit intentionally, then it's
something that you might miss.
And just to be clear, I thinkpeople often mistake that when
we are saying D and i, that wewant the women to get this

(24:20):
fairness bonus thing.
No, that's not what we aresaying.
We're saying they're alreadyincredibly capable and.
So many things are you lookingat everything they're doing?
Because I met someone recently,often they're very engaged in D
N I initiatives and other thingsin outreach things, recruiting,

(24:40):
other avenues for companies thatthey forget to value that time
that is taken for theorganization, but not helping
that microcosm that they'reworking in and not to leave.
Impact outside.
So you are measuring the rightthings and you're looking at
advocacy and who is the rightperson and where are they

(25:00):
manifesting their leadership andtheir impact, not just in this
role, but in other avenues thatmight still benefit you.
Yeah, women in general tend todo a lot more of the non-pro
promotional work, which often iscalled the office house.
Yeah.
And so part of that is howorganizations often set up, what

(25:21):
do you value in your on, in youremployees and their contribution
to the organization, which iswhy also from a systems
perspective, when you're lookingat.
Most companies have annualreviews.
What's on those annual reviews?
Is it only job goal related ordo you have value recognition in

(25:42):
there?
And what kind of activity arethey also doing?
And.
Women tend to join more e r Ggroups.
They tend to do more organizingof events for the company.
They tend to take on more of thed e I kind of efforts in
general, and, but it all helpsan organization, but it's never

(26:06):
really looked at as if it is inan annual review process, as if
it's something that is valuable,it's value.
And someone want, people wantthem to do it.
but is it valuable in the way isit valuable and valued in the
same way when it comes to thosejob annual processes, quarterly

(26:29):
processes, or whatever thesystems in which it's been
created?
During compensation time andpromotion time you're talking
about?
Yeah, I, yeah.
I just recently recorded aninterview with Brenda Peiser.
She's a professor who, theywrote the book, the No Club,
which is talking about non-propromotable work.
Yeah.
And it's something for us tothink about.
So for those who may belistening, think about, it would

(26:50):
be good to audit your processesbecause some of what Kima is
saying is it's not all underyour case to audit, because
there's organizations, but youcan see what work you're doing
and making.
You are getting credit for itand maybe even think about
asking if you're getting paidequally.
I think it's still okay becauseI know those are awkward
conversations.
I've had some of them myself,but I think it is valuable to

(27:12):
see if you are gettingcompensated because you are
spending a lot of time at workand making sure that is a fair
and equitable place to have.
There was a comment you made.
You said a lot of mid-levelwomen are leaving the workforce.
Why do you think they're leavingthe workforce?
There's multiple reasons thatare out there.
There's lots of studies that'shappening right now, and

(27:35):
especially we've seen it moreand more because of post
pandemic.
Part of it is the one we'retalking about, the leaky
pipeline again.
So there is a glass ceiling thatwe hit at mid-level and it is
really hard to break through.
And so there are more women thatleave the dog force to start
their own business.
There are more startups createdby women.

(27:58):
than there are by men.
They are trying to create theirown opportunities and to because
they're tired of playing in thatfield of whatever it is that
they need to do to crawl up theladder, and fight for every
inch.
The idea of also, again, from asystemic per.

(28:19):
if you are a caretaker, and Idon't mean just mothers, if
you're a caretaker for forfamily members that tend to
still land on the women, and sowomen are often, then the more
the higher you go up in theladder, the more oftentimes the
demands of the.

(28:40):
takes from you more hours, more,all of that, even though we all
talk about, work-life balance,that stuff is really hard in
general.
I think the further you are upon that ladder and more
expectations for women ingeneral, and so there's part of
that's happening, they'regetting ultimately exhausted is

(29:01):
like, why fighting?
Why fight against.
Why fight against that if I cango do my own thing?
I think that's oftentimes what'shappening.
Yeah.
A lot of burnout as well.
And other aspects.
So I see that you go to theWorld Economic Forum and have
discussions around DNI space.
So I wonder what theconversation is at that level,
because that's the in some waysthe intellectual capital, the,

(29:23):
the.
power capital.
There's a lot of conversationswith these people who are
deciding either garment policy,company policies or setting up
the stage for the future.
So what is that's going on andhow are you helping direct some
of that conversation and whatcan we expect in the future?
Yeah.
What's interesting about I thinkthe World Economic Forum in

(29:45):
Davos it's there's ajuxtaposition that happens.
There are lots of people thatare trying to.
great things for the world,right?
They're trying to hit all of theS D G goals and thinking about
poverty and lots of climatechange right now.
Lots of climate changeconversation and how do we do it
in a way that actually makessense for the world, but also

(30:05):
you don't have to do it justpurely out of philanthropic way
you can make money at it.
That was the biggest thing thatwas happening, which was, I
found fascinating.
Or when people are talking aboutbecause of the.
Climate change and talking abouthow, for example fashion
industry is one of the largestcontributor right, of destroying

(30:27):
the world right now.
But people are doing that whilethey're showing up in their
high-end fashionable items onAnd so it, so I find it to be
very interesting juxtapositionof this wealth and people
talking about the ideas ofchange.
and then how change actually ishappening.

(30:49):
But what's fascinating is thatwhen you go to the World
Economic Forum, there'sobviously this massive congress
that's happening and those arethe ones that are making the big
world, decisions like you'retalking about.
And then there is this part ofthe ethos of the World Economic
Forum where.
other thousands of people thatcome, that are outside of the

(31:10):
Congress that are trying to makethose changes happen in real
time.
And what's fascinating aboutthat is all the conversations
that are happening around genderequity, about climate change,
about poverty, about justice,all of these things that are
happening.
What I found really What I foundphenomenal is that, yes, there's

(31:33):
lots of talks there, but there'sa lot of action that are
happening.
I'm still having meetings withpeople, and this happened in
January, right?
So even though it happened inJanuary, there's still meetings
happening now about talking withpeople, how they're trying to
make changes happen, how we'retrying to make those changes
happen in continuously do soit's a little bit of.

(31:54):
interesting place to be becauseagain, back to the climate
change, we were talking abouthow do we look at our carbon
footprint while people areflying into this place?
And obviously, you know whatflying happens, people bringing
their personal jets and so it'sa it's an interesting place to
be to have this conversation.

(32:15):
And it was my second year thisyear.
And yeah, that, I still findthat to be somewhat unsettling
but also very much energize.
Yes.
And you touched on somethingthat I was gonna ask you because
I was reading up on it as well,and.
Interesting.
I think it's a contradiction interms, yes.

(32:35):
When you're talking aboutclimate change and
sustainability and then you havethousands of private planes
flying into this tiny part ofthe world.
When you're talking about thesame thing about saving the
planet and.
It's wait, you just said that,but why are you flying these
thousands of privates in here?
You're talking about fastfashion and expensive fashion

(32:56):
and not recycling.
Maybe they should have a themesaying you just have to upcycle
your clothes and show up orsomething.
Yeah, Absolutely.
So like that.
I just found it really, it'ssuch a juxtaposition.
That's the best word I can comeup you will find pretty much
what I like the best though.
You find very much like-mindedpeople who really do wanna make

(33:16):
the change.
but there is something to besaid when you put like-minded
people in a singular place.
There is something that has,that's a multiplier effect that
happens, right?
Lots of energy.
You can just feel it, feel thethought, the innovation, the
conversations and the way thatpeople were really wanting to

(33:36):
move through the.
Large big audacious, largeproblems that they're trying to
solve in the world.
And in some ways it really helpsthat everyone is in one place.
So when you're having theseideas, you have access to the
people who are going to helpdrive some of that.
So it's, it's a collective, asyou called it.
Yeah.
It's a powerful force.
It's a powerful forum.

(33:57):
It has a huge impact there.
There are some juxtaposition,contradictions that happen.
Yeah.
But for something so massive, Wehave to understand and I won't
say deal with it, but I'm suresomeone will work with it.
But the they evocative changethey can drive is so impactful.
It's, it would be nice to see asit continues to flow through
what that looks like.
We don't have a lot of leeway tomake those decisions slowly, so

(34:21):
they have to happen prettyquickly.
So absolutely Absolut drivingthat.
So as we are getting close towrapping up, this is a question
I ask every guest, what advicewould you give your 21 year old
self?
Yeah, I, I think for me, I wouldsay, Hey, Kim, just keep on

(34:44):
following your dreams, followingyour passion.
Follow people that are you.
That are empowering becauseyou'll get to a point where
you're gonna lead.
Yep.
And it happens.
Life happens for a reason.
And for me, I think telling my20 year old, that's a really

(35:09):
important thing.
There's lots happened for me andas a youth and know that all of.
No matter how hard it might havebeen to swallow at the time,
like it happens and you areokay.
You're okay.
And it'll teach you something.
And what is the one word youwould use to describe yourself?
I would say the word is empath.

(35:31):
That I have really strongempathy for the others and just
feel, I feel all the feels.
Because that really ties intoeverything you do, and what
impact you're driving and.
the path that you're taking aswell and Kim, if someone wants
to reach out to you, how do theyconnect with you?
Thank you for asking.
Obviously you can connect withme on LinkedIn.
You can find me literally if youprobably put in kimer.

(35:54):
Inclusion equals is my handlefor Instagram.
I would say LinkedIn andInstagram are two main areas.
And then of course our websiteinclusion equals.com.
Thank you.
This has been a very fascinatingconversation, not just talking
so much about individuals, but alot of focus on culture and

(36:14):
organizations and how weimpacted in our microcosm and in
our macrocosms as we workthrough.
And for those of you listening,as FIFA was saying, think about
how you are showing up, how youadvocate for yourself, how you
set up the space around you,whether you are an individual
contributor or a leader, becauseeveryone is watching and.

(36:34):
and setting up that culture asyou're growing together as you
steer that ship, becauseeverything starts with small
change and it's very intentionaland making space for others
because this is a very womanfocused podcast.
Just making sure that you'readvocating and lifting other
women up and being that sponsorthem and making sure that you
have access to sponsors as well.

(36:55):
we always get over mentoredunsponsored.
So asking for what you want.
I think we are at that timewhere we shouldn't wait for
someone to come in, give us theopportunity as much as ask and
seize it ourselves.
So thank you so much Kim, forhere, for being here today.
Oh my gosh.
Thank you so much for theconversation.
Really appreciate it.

(37:15):
This is an indie podcast and ifyou really enjoy the content,
you can help me with productionby supporting.
You can buy me a cup of chai.
I'm not really a coffee drinker,or you can enable me by
subscribing for either a monthlyor an annual plan as well.
Thank you for doing this, anddon't forget to share this
episode and put in this reviewswhat you liked.

(37:38):
What was your key takeaway?
That's really what I wanna know.
I wanna know how this isimpacting you and what's
infinitesimal changes you'reseeing in your life.
You can always reach me throughInstagram by sending me at BM at
Women Career and.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
See you next time.
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