July 30, 2024 • 47 mins
What if you could redefine what it means to live a fulfilled life? This week on Women in the Arena, we welcome the distinguished author Laura Carroll, who's spent over two decades studying women without children. Join us for an enlightening journey through her latest work, A Special Sisterhood: 100 Fascinating Women from History Who Have Never Had Children. Discover the immense contributions of childless women throughout history and challenge societal norms to explore how you can lead a meaningful life beyond outdated expectations.
✨ Awe-Inspiring Stories of Trailblazing Women ✨
- 🏛️ Artemis: The Greek goddess known for her fierce protectiveness.
- 🎖️ Opha Mae Johnson: The pioneering first female Marine.
- 🗳️ Shirley Chisholm: A political powerhouse who broke barriers.
Laura draws compelling modern-day parallels, likening Artemis's influence to Oprah's impact on young women today, and celebrates how these historic figures continue to inspire us.
🔍 Reflect on Your Choices 🔍
- 📰 Jovita Idar: A fearless journalist and activist.
- 🏕️ Juliette Gordon Low: The visionary founder of the Girl Scouts.
Their stories underscore the importance of pursuing one's passions and living authentically, regardless of societal pressures. Join us as we honor these remarkable women and encourage you to live with intention and purpose, carving out a life path that's uniquely your own.
https://lauracarroll.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Audra (00:00):
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week we're going to have alot of fun.
I cannot wait for you to meetmy guest.
My guest this week is LauraCarroll, and she, oh she has a
lot of energy and I can't waitfor you to meet her.
Laura Carroll is an author andshe's an esteemed author and for
(00:23):
20 years she has studied womenwithout children.
She's the author of six books,including the book we're going
to discuss today, which is ASpecial Sisterhood 100
Fascinating Women from Historywho have Never had Children.
She has also contributed totextbooks.
Has been featured on networktelevision.
(00:43):
She has also contributed totextbooks.
Has been featured on networktelevision, many radio talk
shows and public radio.
Her articles and work haveappeared in many print and
digital media, including Fortune, the Wall Street Journal, the
Guardian, new York Magazine andWomen's Health.
It is my pleasure and my honorto introduce to you Laura.
Laura, thank you so much forbeing here and welcome to the
(01:07):
show.
Thanks for having me.
I am so excited to talk to you.
I this is just.
Sometimes I just get so luckybecause your publisher reached
out to me with your book.
Publisher reached out to mewith your book and I was
(01:30):
instantly, instantly grabbed anddrawn in because it's unique.
It's something that I had nevereven heard of, no one has ever
approached me with this, and Ithought, oh my gosh, what an
interesting study.
Because let's first start offwith the society of ours looks
(01:51):
to women that do not havechildren, either by choice or by
chance that they don't havechildren, as there's something
wrong with them.
There's something wrong withthem, and there is absolutely
positively nothing wrong withwomen that are childless for
whatever reason, and you havechosen for 20 years to work to
(02:15):
prove that.
So tell us, how did you startin this work of dispelling the
myth of I'm broken because Ihave, because I have no children
?
Laura (02:28):
Well, when I was, I've been married 10 years this was
in the late 90s and happilymarried and all my friends who
were married, they were startingto have kids.
And I looked around and wentwell, where are the longtime
married couples, happily marriedcouples that don't have kids?
And in our case it was bychoice and I was looking for
(02:49):
books, anything, and I didn'tfind anything.
So I decided to find out myself, and back then it was
pre-Google, et cetera, wherethings were just getting going.
So I advertised, you know, innewspapers, magazines, for
couples who had been married atleast 10 years.
There were certain criteria andmy answering machine started to
(03:12):
blow up.
I mean, that was the days beforevoicemail and interviews with
40.
And then, with editors, mypublisher got it down to 15 that
best represented all of theinterviews and it turned out to
be a book called Families of Twoand it was really well received
(03:35):
.
So I just launched from thereand went.
You know, this is somethingthat needs to be talked about.
The people I interviewed wereso thrilled that they said
finally somebody wants to talkto us and that's men and women.
So that sparked it and everyquestion I've had since is
you'll see, in my list of books.
(03:55):
It's trying to find the answersto the questions that led to
the next thing.
So that's what started it all.
Audra (04:01):
All was my own curiosity human race which is, you know,
for obvious reasons,historically.
That's what you're trying to dois make sure that there are
(04:27):
enough humans so they wouldsurvive for the next age.
Well, we don't have thatproblem anymore.
Laura (04:33):
No, we have more than enough people on the planet
right now.
Audra (04:36):
Yeah, right, we have plenty of people to go around
for a very long, long time.
Even with birth ratesdecreasing, we still have plenty
of people to go around.
That's why it's so ingrained inus.
We are still looking at thosethat, like I said, by chance or
(04:59):
by choice, that why don't youhave kids?
And then I've also seen peoplethat are like they look at each
with them with pity.
Laura (05:08):
Right.
Audra (05:09):
Right which is not the case.
Laura (05:13):
Somehow, by not having kids, your life is not going to
be able to be truly fulfilledand you're not going to know
true love, et cetera.
All these beliefs have a lot of.
They're very old, they have alot of dust on them and many of
them were never even true tobegin with.
So you know that whole systemof beliefs I call pronatalism
(05:34):
and it's been around with us formany generations and that's the
topic of one of my books calledthe Baby Matrix and it's like
the movie.
Once you see through thatmatrix, you can't unsee it.
So, and whether you have nothave kids by choice, the
judgments come with that.
You don't have children, forwhatever reason, Say you have
(05:54):
trouble having them, Judgmentscome with that.
No matter how we get there,women are judged.
That we have in common, and mentoo, to some degree as well.
It's talked less about, butthey don't get off the hook
either when they don't, you know, become fathers or, you know,
have their legacy, continue, etc.
Audra (06:11):
Yeah, and it's this continuation, like you said, of
a very old, dusty mindset.
Yes, so you have taken it onestep further with your study and
you thought, in order to breakthis mindset, I need to
(06:33):
demonstrate for a youngergeneration, make it easy for
them to digest, to digest andfor them to see that it is not
only is it okay to make adifferent choice, but a
(06:57):
different choice has been madefor a very long time, and these
women are not only are they okay, they are thriving and their
lives in many ways have impactedwhat you do today, right now.
This is what I love about thisbook.
It goes back a long way, yeah,a long, long way.
Like I said, I was so excitedwhen your publisher sent me a
(07:18):
copy of this book.
I literally squealed when shesent this to me Because I had
never seen anything like it.
It's the.
The illustrations are stunningbecause, like I said, it's done
(07:39):
geared towards younger readers,so it's easier for them to
digest, it's easier for them tounderstand, it's presented in a
way so they don't feelintimidated and it's also
historically correct.
But I was entertained, great.
Laura (07:55):
So well, that was my intention.
It's really for anybody.
But yes, I wanted to, unlike myother books that are you know
one could say more serious andresearch oriented, but yet
written for the lay public.
This was like I want youngwomen in high school college.
I want them to see that therehave been women who've had lives
(08:16):
without kids, without havingever been mothers, for
generations, and it reallydoesn't matter how they got
there generations and it reallydoesn't matter how they got
there.
It was more I wanted to show.
They are out there living theirlives, and they do it in a
myriad of ways, and I try tofocus on many different
countries, so it's not like,well, it's just the women in the
United States or North America,it's like everywhere.
(08:38):
So to expand their thinking andperceptions of what they may
envision for themselves as theyget older not saying that they
not have children, but expandtheir thinking of, like, what is
really going to be best for me.
I want people to make thatdecision and in order to do that
, we need to get all kinds ofinformation, not just the
(09:00):
assumptions that it's going tohappen.
It's just a matter of when.
Audra (09:05):
And when you and I first met, I had shared with you that
when my husband and I first gotmarried, I first of all didn't
even think about it.
I was not one of those peoplethat even dreamt about getting
married.
I was not one of those girlsthat bought a bridal magazine at
16 and dreamt about my weddingand I never did.
(09:26):
It was kind of autopilot.
Honestly, no one was moresurprised at me getting married
than me, honestly, never eventhought about it.
And having kids never eventhought about it.
That just sort of happened.
Never even thought about it.
That just sort of happened.
(09:47):
But had other choices beenpresented to me, I might have
made other choices.
I am certainly not saying thatI regret the choices I have.
I have two amazing children.
I have incredible children.
I do not regret them at all,but I didn't know I had other
(10:12):
choices.
I had no idea, no clue.
You're just saying that thereare lots of different ways to
live your life and you wanted topresent different options so
that young women, young girls,teenagers know that they have
just as much of an opportunityof a full, fulfilled life for
whatever choice they decide tomake.
That's right and whatever waythey want to live it.
Laura (10:35):
That's right.
Right, I didn't get that.
When I was their age, you know,I just looked around and saw
everybody doing the same thingand my husband and I decided to
do something different, and soit definitely was a journey to
find people like us.
And also, you know the peoplethat were dear friends of mine
that were having kids.
We always stayed close, but fora while, you know, their
(10:58):
lifestyles and prioritiesshifted, and tending to
friendships was, you know,through transitions like that,
it was a unique experience thatI think you know.
Through transitions like that,it was a unique experience that
I think you know.
Young people and adults all theway up they experience it still
today.
Even the older adults theyexperience it when they're
grandparents and then they havefriends who aren't grandparents.
So you know it.
(11:18):
Just, there's some interestingrelational things that happen
all around you know, whether youhave children or not.
That do is all.
Audra (11:27):
Well, what we're going to do now is we're going to
share some of the stories ofthese women from her book, and
what she has done is she hasseparated them into categories,
and I have picked six, and Lauramay pick a few more, depending
on what kind of time we've got.
But we originally thought thatI would pick four, but I
(11:48):
couldn't, I just couldn't settleon four, and I was just,
finally was like, well, this ismy show, I can do what I want.
So I picked six, so six it is,so six it is.
And if we have time, maybe I'llask Laura what her favorite is.
If she can pick one, it'sprobably, like you know, picking
her favorite color, and I guessit depends on the day.
But we're going to start withthe goddesses, oh, okay, and I'm
(12:14):
going to pick my favoritegoddess because I think that
she's just complex andinteresting which is Artemis.
Oh, ah, yes.
Laura (12:25):
Artemis yes.
Audra (12:30):
And in case you guys don't all remember your Greek
mythology, she's the daughter ofZeus and she's very complex and
she's very strong and she'sjust complicated.
Laura (12:44):
Well, I liked her because she's known to be not
only the goddess of animals,wilderness, even childbirth, but
also the protectress of girlsup to the age of marriage.
So I like that because it's notjust a goddess who's out there,
you know, killing animals andfighting, and a warrior woman
(13:06):
you know she is those things butshe also is a protector of
children.
So it's not like she hates themor doesn't want anything to do
with them.
She's very you know, in themythology, she's very devoted to
them.
So I like that no-transcript.
Audra (13:47):
But she also happens to be my favorite Greek goddess,
because she's just, she'scomplicated.
Laura (13:54):
I recall too that the gift she asked for from her
powerful father was to be aneternal virgin.
So here we know why she didn'thave any kids.
But she asked for that so thatshe asked not to become a mother
, to have the gift to not be,but yet she then, with being a
(14:15):
protectress of girls, she becamesort of the mother of many,
many, many girls.
So there's, you know, Oprah'san example of that in our day as
well.
You know she has lots forlittle young women and girls all
over the world.
Audra (14:29):
Yes, that's actually.
That's a great.
That's a great comparison.
Actually I hadn't even thoughtof that.
That's a great comparison.
The next there's a little bitof a theme here because this is
Women of the Arena.
So there's a little bit of atheme here because this is Women
of the Arena.
So, there's a little bit of atheme here, it's okay.
We're going to Warrior Women,all right, and this is Opa Mae
(14:55):
Johnson.
Laura (14:57):
Oh, let me bring that up here to my memory.
Okay, oh yeah, marine, firstfemale Marine, what a story.
Huh, yes, hoo-ah, you know,fill administrative jobs while
(15:31):
the guys were overseas and theMarine Corps invited the women
to enlist and on the firstrecruiting day, as I recall, opa
was the first woman in a long.
She was in line, but she wasfirst in a long line there
waiting to enlist and so sheended up, you know, being
selected and they had to getreally strong mental and
physical skills and really onlya few women actually made that
(15:53):
cut and she was one of them.
I think by then she was in herlate 30s.
So they trained and skilledlike all the other Marines and
you know, as history has it,they were tough and she was one
of them.
Audra (16:08):
Very first female Marine .
Yeah, yes, that is not for thefaint of heart, especially not
then.
What year was that?
Laura (16:16):
Oh, gosh, probably you know, the war ended around 1919.
So it was several years beforethat.
So, yeah, and at that timeagain, like I say, she was in
her 30s and she, she was still,like you know, physically
meeting this, doing the samethings that the guy Marines were
doing, which you know at thattime was, was pretty impressive,
you know, women didn't work outlike they do today, or many
(16:38):
anyway.
So, yeah, she had some gumption, for sure to just say I'm going
to not only going to enlist,I'm going to be first in line.
And you know, literally, sheknows she would be the first,
first.
So, yeah, she was quite theyeah, world War I, she had
something, something, yes, shedid Definitely paved the way for
women in the military, for sureshe did, and she's probably
(17:11):
paved the way for the.
Audra (17:11):
We have some female colonels that are in the Marines
right now, that are fighterpilots and are leading entire
regiments of military men andwomen all over the world, so
it's because of her that that'seven possible.
Laura (17:27):
Yeah, more bad ass women out there today.
Sure, yes.
Audra (17:32):
Absolutely.
It's because of that woman thatit made it possible that all
the other branches invited womento join them, and now that
there are women that havethriving careers in all the
branches of the military,because of that woman Now we're
going to move to leaders.
Okay, and this one jumped outat me because I have not watched
(17:58):
it yet.
I'm saving it.
I want to watch it.
She has a new Netflixdocumentary and it's Shirley
Chisholm.
Laura (18:09):
Oh, yeah, man, yeah, she , oh, that's you know what?
I've seen it.
Actually I've seen the doc.
Oh, it's very good, yeah,really good.
And what is the gal who playsher?
Oh man, she's got pipes.
Really good, singer Gosh, she'snot just coming to me right now
, Anyway, it's very well acted.
(18:29):
So she, Shirley God, she'sanother one where you know she
started her career in somethingcompletely different.
I mean, she started her careerin education and while she was
in that field she got involvedin local politics, and little
did she know that that would beher total future.
I mean, before around age Ithink it was around 40, she was
(18:53):
elected to the New York StateAssembly and then she made her
way up, up, up to the US Houseof Representatives and she was
the first Black woman everelected to Congress, which was
amazing.
And then once she, once she wonthat, she'd go on to being
reelected, for I believe it wassix terms.
So obviously she was doingsomething right.
Audra (19:16):
Yeah, lady, she's the one that coined the phrase.
Laura (19:20):
If they don't have room for the table, bring a folding
chair Chair yes, and she alsohad the chutzpah where, I think
by her late 40s, she said youknow what?
I think I'm going to run forpresident and this was in the
60s, yeah, yeah.
So she ran in the USpresidential primaries and
(19:42):
during her campaign was it twoor three times?
People tried to assassinate her.
She survived assassinationattempts and now also, I think,
as a black woman, she didn'texactly expect to be nominated
for the Democratic candidate forpresident, but she did it so
that it would spark change andget people thinking like, well,
(20:04):
why the heck not Get used toseeing black women in really
really high up leadershippositions?
So you know, she really didthat.
But she continued to fight for,you know, an education, for
health care, equal rights andall of her congressional
positions.
So later she was, and she justreally started breaking a new
(20:25):
barrier to say, yeah, a woman, awoman, even a Black woman, can
run for president, just stellar.
And she's, of course, got many,many medals and awards,
including the Presidential Medalof Freedom, as I believe.
So, yeah, she was reallyhonored for all her great work
in her life.
Audra (20:46):
Just an amazing woman.
Amazing woman yeah.
Laura (20:49):
The documentary shouldn't be.
It's well overdue, for sure.
Audra (20:54):
Absolutely.
I'm looking forward to seeingit.
We're now moving to socialchangers and everybody should
perk up here.
Catherine McCormick.
Laura (21:08):
Now, what made you pick her?
Audra (21:11):
Come on.
Well, I think it's timelyBecause, if I'm not mistaken,
she is the architect of allowingwomen to take birth control
(21:32):
pills.
Heaven forbid, you have birthcontrol pills.
Laura (21:41):
Well, it even started before that, before the pill.
I mean, she heavily financedthe development of the pill.
I mean, she heavily financedthe development of the pill.
But before that she wasinstrumental in getting the
diaphragm to the United States,where at one time they were not
allowed here.
There was a black market forthem and not enough of them.
(22:02):
So she came up with a crazyplan but it ended up working.
For a while she posed as ascientist.
She went to diaphragmmanufacturers in Europe, got
lots of orders and then hiredseamstresses to sew the
diaphragms into the garments andthat's how they got shipped
(22:23):
into the United States.
I mean, what a crazy idea.
And it actually worked for awhile.
So the customs, you know.
People just saw the clothes anddidn't suspect a thing.
And so I guess all these womenwere walking in with all these
rubber diaphragms inside theirclothes.
Just, diaphragms were blackmarket.
(22:46):
Yes, couldn't have him in theStates?
Yeah, but her husband died.
Her husband was, you know, hadsome.
He was a wealthy businessmanand he got ill.
I believe he had dementia kindof early in life too.
So she cared for him for manyyears while all this other stuff
(23:07):
was going on.
But when he passed away.
She got a sizable estate andthat's when she said you know
what, moving on from thediaphragm, we've got to get the
pill here, and in big numbers.
And she helped finance thedevelopment and manufacturing of
it.
In the beginning she used a lotof her money, you know.
I think at the time it wasprobably only a couple million
bucks, but that's about 20million dollars today.
(23:29):
So she really was brave and howshe fought to get birth control
options into the United States.
But she also, you know, reallywas a financial force behind the
pill, so I felt like she neededto be recognized.
That's pretty badass.
Audra (23:46):
She put her money and her resources, yeah, badass.
She put her money and herresources, yeah, so that people
like you and I can can chuckleout loud and say that diaphragms
were black market and thingslike the pill are now you don't
even think about it, you justit's.
You it's second thought, andit's not even a second thought.
(24:08):
Oh, you need the pill.
Ok, right, it's justcommonplace now, because this
woman took huge risks, hugerisks that she would not even
realize in her lifetime wouldbecome so easy in her lifetime
would become so easy.
Laura (24:29):
Yeah, yeah, she was looking down from the heavens
and hopefully smiling Well, notcompletely, but the situation
but yeah, she was creative andalso really put her money where
her mouth was, you know, yeah,so thank you, catherine, good
one, she has affectedgenerations.
Audra (24:47):
So thank you, Catherine.
The last two that I've pickedand we might have time for you
to pick your favorites, but thelast two that I picked are
completely selfish, completelyselfish, fiery informers.
And this one I picked becauseof my heritage I am Hispanic,
(25:12):
and so this one I just love herand I love her story, and it is
Jovita Adar.
Laura (25:22):
Fighter for Mexican-American civil rights.
Yes, so, gosh, where to startwith her?
Well, I think her father wasknown as a community leader and
a civil rights activist and heran a family newspaper.
That was crucial, you know, atthe time, not only for blacks,
(25:45):
but Mexican-Americans as well,and so, as a young woman, she
started out as a reporter, youknow right from the get-go,
writing about segregation andhot, you know topics at the time
.
And so in her mid-20s sheorganized I think it was the
first, was it First MexicanCongress which started the
(26:06):
modern Mexican-American civilrights movement.
I see why maybe you'reinterested in her.
What else did you learn thatyou like about her?
Audra (26:16):
Well, she's a feisty Hispanic, which I resemble that
comment.
And she started somethingbecause she couldn't find it.
And she started somethingbecause she couldn't find it, so
she made it herself.
I also resemble that commentYep, yep, for sure you do.
So that is why I picked her.
(26:37):
Because she is just for selfishreasons, because I like her, I
think I'd like to if I could.
She'd be one of those peopleI'd like to have dinner with.
Laura (26:49):
Oh, yeah, for sure, I believe too.
She was working at a newspapercalled the El Progreso and she
wrote an article protesting thecurrent president, his decision
to send the US troops to theborder, the US troops to the
(27:10):
border.
And when the army and theborder security officials came
to the newspaper's doors, jovitastood her ground, did not let
them in and did not try her bestnot to let them shut down the
paper.
So not only was she writing andfighting for civil rights, she
was standing her ground to, youknow, not have them come in and
destroy what they were up to.
So she was a very brave person,an activist journalist who
(27:35):
really devoted to obviouslyequal rights, to
Mexican-Americans, for sure, andto the education of
Mexican-Americans as well.
What years are these?
Was she active?
Well, she was born in 1885 anddied in 1946.
And so, gosh, when she was inher 20s, I think she started out
(27:57):
as a reporter.
So it was just from her 20s allthe way to 46.
When she died was she involvedin this for pretty much her
whole adult life.
Audra (28:07):
But you could have written that yesterday.
Yeah, she was really brave,brave woman.
Yep, tessa agrees.
Laura (28:22):
That's funny.
She chimed in right at theright time.
Audra (28:25):
She sure did, tessa agrees right at the right time
she sure did disagrees.
And this last one is very, veryselfish, very personal, very
near and dear to my heart.
Um, I will give you a couple ofclues.
Um, I am a gold award recipient.
I received a presidentialrecognition because of that gold
(28:50):
award.
I received a scholarshipbecause of that gold award.
And this last one is a serverof the public and it is Juliet
Gordon Lowe who was the creatorof the Girl Scouts.
Laura (29:12):
Yes, yes, yes, she's a good one.
God, what was it?
The Boy Scouts?
Did you just hear in the news?
It's no longer the Boy Scouts,it's just called the Scouts.
Yes, it's just called thescouts.
Yes, sometimes they know what.
Will the girl scouts now becomescouts too?
Or how are they going to do?
Audra (29:31):
that it won't happen.
I don't.
I shouldn't say that it won'thappen.
I don't believe that it willhappen because it's against the
charter of what the girl scoutsstand for, of what juliet low uh
believed in, and the girlscouts stand for of what
Juliette Lowe believed in.
And the Girl Scouts have alwaysstood on the foundation of what
(29:52):
she has created, which hasalways been about the promotion
and leadership of girls andyoung women.
They've always stayed true tothat, from the day that they
have started it to now, for over100 years.
So I can't imagine that theywould change it today.
(30:13):
Because it's trendy, it's forthe development of girls into
women, so why would they changeit?
I just don't imagine that theywould.
I just described to you whyit's so personal to me, because
I worked really hard to get agold award and I got all this
(30:33):
recognition for it idea of theGirl Scouts when she was like in
her 40s, her husband had diedand you know, she just when I
think.
Laura (30:51):
I think she lost most of her wealth too when he did.
I don't I have to check on howexactly that occurred, but she
just said you know what?
I'm going to go travel.
I'm going to France and Europe.
And she went to India and in her50s she was in England and she
met a British general and warhero and who?
He was the founder of the BoyScouts, and she loved the idea
(31:17):
and he told her about there wasa group there in England called
the Girl Guides, the Girl Guidesand she thought, well, geez,
you know, I'm going to createthose groups, more of those
groups here.
And then she ended up comingback to the United States and
renamed it the Girl Scouts as aneducational and service
organization.
So she was, you're right,really the impetus on how the
(31:39):
Girl Scouts got to the UnitedStates and she really worked for
the Scouts until she died, Ithink in her 60s, early 60s, of
cancer.
So yeah, she was supportive ofthem all the way to her death,
which I thought was a little tooearly.
But you know, that's how itgoes.
Audra (31:58):
Well, it's one of my favorite organizations on the
planet.
She has changed millions ofgirls' lives.
One of my favorite troops is inNew York City.
It's Troop 6000.
It is for homeless girls.
One of my friends, that's great.
Yes, it's one of my friends whoalso happens to be a Women in
(32:23):
the Arena.
Alumni, shout out to you,michelle.
Her name is Michelle DeFeo.
She is the CEO of LaurentPierre Champagne here in the
Arena.
Alumni, shout out to you,michelle.
Her name is Michelle DeFeo.
She is the CEO of LaurentPierre Champagne here in the US.
She is a scout leader for them,and she is also a motherless
woman by choice, and she haschosen to be a scout leader for
(32:46):
Troop 6000, for homeless girls,and so that is why she was, why
I wanted to pick her last,because Juliette Lewis excuse me
, juliette Gordon-Lowe changedmillions of girls' lives and
(33:09):
women's lives and is stillaffecting lives now, decades
after her death.
Laura (33:16):
One of the pieces of trivia I love about her is she
was buried in her Girl Scoutuniform.
I just love that.
Audra (33:26):
Admittedly, I was never great at wearing that uniform.
I ditched that uniform long agoand just wore the sash because
I was like eh, and then afterthat, I think, I ditched the
sash and I just saved thepatches and, yeah, I was like
(33:47):
I'm fine, I'm good, I'm good.
Laura (33:50):
I don't want to come up like that.
I have my sash and I had mybadges and I remember the first
badge I got that went to theback of my sash and I thought,
oh, this is so cool, let's keepgoing.
No, the other girls had morethan me, but I liked, you know,
I liked the day where I wentonto the back.
Audra (34:08):
Now, Some girls had them on all over their jackets, the
ones that were like super cool,super cool.
So we have time for you to pick.
Laura (34:21):
Gosh, you know, I think, when we spoke before and you
said who's your favorite?
And I said, well, gosh, I was.
I think.
When we spoke before and yousaid, oh, who's your favorite?
And I said, well, gosh, I wasover 300 and counting before I
(34:41):
started researching this.
Going, laura, you have to stop,so to get it down to, you know,
100.
So I wish one would do I pickthat.
I'm just in the mood for today.
I mean, I love them all, ofcourse, and I, like I said I
tried to have there be highvariety, uh, world.
You know global women, uh, notjust from certain countries.
You know entertainment, um, oh,photographers.
Maybe I'll pick somebody fromthe photography, uh chapter.
(35:04):
I just uh learning about some.
This chapter is called LegendaryLens Women and some of these.
In that chapter there'sexamples of women who were war
photographers and some of thefirst to do photography for Life
magazine.
Catherine Leroy she's one Iguess can showcase that.
(35:29):
I love learning about her.
She was I got it 21.
She learned about the VietnamWar and she was so moved by
images she saw in magazines shedecided to go there herself and
she bought a one-way ticket toLaos, left with a camera and a
couple hundred bucks.
(35:50):
Wow, it was very, very rare atthe time.
Okay, so she wasn't aprofessional photographer, but
she went to the Associated Presswhen she got there to see if
she could, you know, take photosfor them.
And they asked her you know,okay, what's your experience?
And she said well, you know,she just lied and she said she
had experience.
They gave her the chance andshe totally delivered.
(36:12):
The thing that really was badassabout her before this was she's
one of the few women who hadher parachutes license and I
think that's what gave her alittle more gumption to go.
You know, I'm going over thereand I'm going to get some
pictures of what's really goingon.
Because she knew she could getonto some planes, right, so, and
she could parachute out of themjust like the guys did there.
(36:34):
So she was one of the onlyjournalists who did that, mind
you, you know, and a woman, soshe was able to get like all
kinds of shots that you know youcouldn't, you just can't get in
combat, because she was able toparachute, parachute down.
So she covered, you know,conflicts later in Iran Libya
(36:55):
just became internationallyfamous, but she had some, you
know, gumption to to go reallyget into some dangerous
situations and take photos.
So, yeah, that's one that Ireally love learning about.
Audra (37:11):
That's amazing, do you have one?
We have one, we have time forone more.
Oh, come on, I know.
Laura (37:19):
What can we agree on?
Maybe, let's see how aboutmaybe a creative type person who
would be fun to talk about?
Oh, they're all fun to talkabout.
That's see how about maybe acreative type person who would
be fun to talk about?
Oh, they're all fun to talkabout.
That's true.
Well, I have a chapter calledMovement in Melody where I
highlight, you know, movement asin dancers and the like, and
then melody singers andsongwriters and things like that
(37:41):
, that.
And there's a gal, a woman,named Lizzie Douglas.
So she was a really, reallypopular country blues artist in
a time when, you know, womenjust didn't do that.
But she was blessed with areally good voice and at 10, she
was already playing the banjoand playing at parties that you
(38:03):
know in her neighborhood.
And but when she was about 13,she thought I want to get out on
the road and I want to do this.
She ran away from home toMemphis to try to play music.
Okay, mind you, this is theearly 1900s, this is really
brave to do.
So she started playing instreet bands, cafes, clubs, and
(38:24):
she made a name for herself.
She even traveled with thecircus, the Ringling Brothers
Circus, when it was just gettinggoing and somebody found her.
A talent scout from ColumbiaRecords found her and the rest
is history.
She just worked with some of thebest premier blues guitarists
and songwriters of the 30s and40s blues guitarists and
songwriters of the 30s and 40sand she faced a lot of racism in
(38:50):
addition to being in sexism,you know, and she had to really
just take a lot of you know what, but she was just staying right
up there with the top of theblues men in the field and she's
also remembered because shecould whistle like the best of
them.
So she really could, you know,integrate that into her songs as
well.
So she was a blues singer andshe helped to influence, you
(39:13):
know, rhythm and blues and rockand roll to come.
So she was one of those forwardwomen early on in country and
blues.
So she's definitely worthlearning about.
Yeah, she had some charisma inthat song.
Audra (39:29):
Could we take the leap and say that she might have
influenced another childlesswoman by the name of Dolly
Parton?
Laura (39:41):
Very possible, very possible, yes, that she really
consciously decided she wantedher career and she knew that if
she had a child that it wouldjust not be in the best interest
of the child.
So I love that she's out thereand very vocal about it.
We need more candid storieslike that.
Clearly, the women give it.
Thought Bonnie Raitt's the sameway.
(40:01):
She's like why would I have akid and leave it and have it be
raised with nannies and handlers?
What good is that?
So women really think about itand they choose.
They choose what their priorityis, and if it's their creative
life, so be it.
Audra (40:16):
Yeah, well, clearly, from these stories that we've
shared and this is just afraction of the stories that are
in this book, which you've onlynarrowed it down to 100.
There are, there are thousandsmore out there.
This book just highlights 100of them and it's done so
beautifully.
Like I said, it's done in a waythat it can be digested of all
(40:41):
ages and you know, young, youngwomen, young adults, teenagers,
and for all of us, and it'sbeautifully illustrated,
wonderful stories, and it'senough to get you interested in
them and encourage you to go anddo your own investigation of
these women and learn more aboutthem.
(41:03):
That's what I love about thisbook.
I'm so excited.
Laura (41:10):
One of the most challenging was to take all the
information I learned with eachwoman and get it down to around
300 words or one page.
So on one page is the narrative.
The other page, the oppositepage, is the illustration by
just a very talented Talia Tuevathat I found Just got so lucky.
It was my first time workingwith an illustrator.
It was really super fun, but Iwanted it so you could just open
(41:33):
it up.
You see the picture, you do thenarrative.
Also, it's a book.
You can just open it and startanywhere, start wherever you're
inspired that particular day.
It's easy to swipe on tabletsand phones.
It's fun to swipe on tabletsand phones.
It's, you know, it's fun andeasy and I think thanks.
I agree, I was really pleasedwith just how it worked out
visually.
Audra (41:54):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
It's so beautiful and, before Ilet you go, because it's been
such a joy having you here andallowing me to be the ambassador
of these ladies stories,because they're not here to tell
their stories themselves.
So thank you for allowing me todo that.
Uh, if the those of you thathave been listening for a while,
(42:16):
this is where I get theopportunity to sit back from the
the mic and give you anopportunity to have a direct,
intimate moment with theaudience, without me
interrupting, so you can have amoment directly with them, to
leave them with a lastingthought, a moment that they can
(42:37):
take with them throughout theirday, just something that you can
say to encourage them whilethey're contemplating this, what
they've been learning today,and just some thoughts and
something they can think about.
So, laura, the mic is yours.
Oh, my goodness.
Laura (43:17):
It's really helping the importance of self-reflection
and on what it is we really wantand why we want it.
To really ask more deepquestions on why is it I think I
might want them, why am I notso sure?
Why am I moving away from it.
It's to really take more timeto just not answer yes or no or
(43:38):
yes and do what everybody elsedoes, but to really look at the
experiences that you're reallylooking for.
If you had children and askingyourself, gee, is that the only
way I can have that experience?
So it's again.
It's like looking more deeply atsome of these really big
decisions in our lives and, youknow, using it as an opportunity
(44:00):
to know oneself even moredeeply.
So that's one thing, andanother is like the women in
this book sometimes you just gotto lead your life and move
towards what you're mostinterested in, what you're drawn
to, and in the end, if you knowwhat, if that didn't include
kids, cool, fine, you know.
The good news is you've livedyour life to its fullest and
(44:23):
just you know, go toward what ismaking you passionate and
following your curiosities, andI firmly believe that you'll end
up in the place that's, youknow, you'll be the most happy.
Audra (44:33):
So and you might just do something that changes
generations.
You never know, never knowwhich might be super cool.
You might be known for a reallylong time.
That's right, laura, thank youso much for being here, just
(44:55):
allowing me to help you tellthese stories, because these
stories need to be told, andsince they're not here to tell
them themselves, I'm so gratefulthat you allowed me to tell
them.
And since they're not here totell them themselves, I'm so
grateful that you allowed me totell them.
So, thank you, I reallyappreciate it.
Yeah Well, I thank you, minnie,and I want to thank all of you
once again for being here, andwe'll see you again next time.
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week we're going to have alot of fun.
I cannot wait for you to meetmy guest.
My guest this week is LauraCarroll, and she, oh she has a
lot of energy and I can't waitfor you to meet her.
Laura Carroll is an author andshe's an esteemed author and for
(00:23):
20 years she has studied womenwithout children.
She's the author of six books,including the book we're going
to discuss today, which is ASpecial Sisterhood 100
Fascinating Women from Historywho have Never had Children.
She has also contributed totextbooks.
Has been featured on networktelevision.
(00:43):
She has also contributed totextbooks.
Has been featured on networktelevision, many radio talk
shows and public radio.
Her articles and work haveappeared in many print and
digital media, including Fortune, the Wall Street Journal, the
Guardian, new York Magazine andWomen's Health.
It is my pleasure and my honorto introduce to you Laura.
Laura, thank you so much forbeing here and welcome to the
(01:07):
show.
Thanks for having me.
I am so excited to talk to you.
I this is just.
Sometimes I just get so luckybecause your publisher reached
out to me with your book.
Publisher reached out to mewith your book and I was
(01:30):
instantly, instantly grabbed anddrawn in because it's unique.
It's something that I had nevereven heard of, no one has ever
approached me with this, and Ithought, oh my gosh, what an
interesting study.
Because let's first start offwith the society of ours looks
(01:51):
to women that do not havechildren, either by choice or by
chance that they don't havechildren, as there's something
wrong with them.
There's something wrong withthem, and there is absolutely
positively nothing wrong withwomen that are childless for
whatever reason, and you havechosen for 20 years to work to
(02:15):
prove that.
So tell us, how did you startin this work of dispelling the
myth of I'm broken because Ihave, because I have no children
?
Laura (02:28):
Well, when I was, I've been married 10 years this was
in the late 90s and happilymarried and all my friends who
were married, they were startingto have kids.
And I looked around and wentwell, where are the longtime
married couples, happily marriedcouples that don't have kids?
And in our case it was bychoice and I was looking for
(02:49):
books, anything, and I didn'tfind anything.
So I decided to find out myself, and back then it was
pre-Google, et cetera, wherethings were just getting going.
So I advertised, you know, innewspapers, magazines, for
couples who had been married atleast 10 years.
There were certain criteria andmy answering machine started to
(03:12):
blow up.
I mean, that was the days beforevoicemail and interviews with
40.
And then, with editors, mypublisher got it down to 15 that
best represented all of theinterviews and it turned out to
be a book called Families of Twoand it was really well received
(03:35):
.
So I just launched from thereand went.
You know, this is somethingthat needs to be talked about.
The people I interviewed wereso thrilled that they said
finally somebody wants to talkto us and that's men and women.
So that sparked it and everyquestion I've had since is
you'll see, in my list of books.
(03:55):
It's trying to find the answersto the questions that led to
the next thing.
So that's what started it all.
Audra (04:01):
All was my own curiosity human race which is, you know,
for obvious reasons,historically.
That's what you're trying to dois make sure that there are
(04:27):
enough humans so they wouldsurvive for the next age.
Well, we don't have thatproblem anymore.
Laura (04:33):
No, we have more than enough people on the planet
right now.
Audra (04:36):
Yeah, right, we have plenty of people to go around
for a very long, long time.
Even with birth ratesdecreasing, we still have plenty
of people to go around.
That's why it's so ingrained inus.
We are still looking at thosethat, like I said, by chance or
(04:59):
by choice, that why don't youhave kids?
And then I've also seen peoplethat are like they look at each
with them with pity.
Laura (05:08):
Right.
Audra (05:09):
Right which is not the case.
Laura (05:13):
Somehow, by not having kids, your life is not going to
be able to be truly fulfilledand you're not going to know
true love, et cetera.
All these beliefs have a lot of.
They're very old, they have alot of dust on them and many of
them were never even true tobegin with.
So you know that whole systemof beliefs I call pronatalism
(05:34):
and it's been around with us formany generations and that's the
topic of one of my books calledthe Baby Matrix and it's like
the movie.
Once you see through thatmatrix, you can't unsee it.
So, and whether you have nothave kids by choice, the
judgments come with that.
You don't have children, forwhatever reason, Say you have
(05:54):
trouble having them, Judgmentscome with that.
No matter how we get there,women are judged.
That we have in common, and mentoo, to some degree as well.
It's talked less about, butthey don't get off the hook
either when they don't, you know, become fathers or, you know,
have their legacy, continue, etc.
Audra (06:11):
Yeah, and it's this continuation, like you said, of
a very old, dusty mindset.
Yes, so you have taken it onestep further with your study and
you thought, in order to breakthis mindset, I need to
(06:33):
demonstrate for a youngergeneration, make it easy for
them to digest, to digest andfor them to see that it is not
only is it okay to make adifferent choice, but a
(06:57):
different choice has been madefor a very long time, and these
women are not only are they okay, they are thriving and their
lives in many ways have impactedwhat you do today, right now.
This is what I love about thisbook.
It goes back a long way, yeah,a long, long way.
Like I said, I was so excitedwhen your publisher sent me a
(07:18):
copy of this book.
I literally squealed when shesent this to me Because I had
never seen anything like it.
It's the.
The illustrations are stunningbecause, like I said, it's done
(07:39):
geared towards younger readers,so it's easier for them to
digest, it's easier for them tounderstand, it's presented in a
way so they don't feelintimidated and it's also
historically correct.
But I was entertained, great.
Laura (07:55):
So well, that was my intention.
It's really for anybody.
But yes, I wanted to, unlike myother books that are you know
one could say more serious andresearch oriented, but yet
written for the lay public.
This was like I want youngwomen in high school college.
I want them to see that therehave been women who've had lives
(08:16):
without kids, without havingever been mothers, for
generations, and it reallydoesn't matter how they got
there generations and it reallydoesn't matter how they got
there.
It was more I wanted to show.
They are out there living theirlives, and they do it in a
myriad of ways, and I try tofocus on many different
countries, so it's not like,well, it's just the women in the
United States or North America,it's like everywhere.
(08:38):
So to expand their thinking andperceptions of what they may
envision for themselves as theyget older not saying that they
not have children, but expandtheir thinking of, like, what is
really going to be best for me.
I want people to make thatdecision and in order to do that
, we need to get all kinds ofinformation, not just the
(09:00):
assumptions that it's going tohappen.
It's just a matter of when.
Audra (09:05):
And when you and I first met, I had shared with you that
when my husband and I first gotmarried, I first of all didn't
even think about it.
I was not one of those peoplethat even dreamt about getting
married.
I was not one of those girlsthat bought a bridal magazine at
16 and dreamt about my weddingand I never did.
(09:26):
It was kind of autopilot.
Honestly, no one was moresurprised at me getting married
than me, honestly, never eventhought about it.
And having kids never eventhought about it.
That just sort of happened.
Never even thought about it.
That just sort of happened.
(09:47):
But had other choices beenpresented to me, I might have
made other choices.
I am certainly not saying thatI regret the choices I have.
I have two amazing children.
I have incredible children.
I do not regret them at all,but I didn't know I had other
(10:12):
choices.
I had no idea, no clue.
You're just saying that thereare lots of different ways to
live your life and you wanted topresent different options so
that young women, young girls,teenagers know that they have
just as much of an opportunityof a full, fulfilled life for
whatever choice they decide tomake.
That's right and whatever waythey want to live it.
Laura (10:35):
That's right.
Right, I didn't get that.
When I was their age, you know,I just looked around and saw
everybody doing the same thingand my husband and I decided to
do something different, and soit definitely was a journey to
find people like us.
And also, you know the peoplethat were dear friends of mine
that were having kids.
We always stayed close, but fora while, you know, their
(10:58):
lifestyles and prioritiesshifted, and tending to
friendships was, you know,through transitions like that,
it was a unique experience thatI think you know.
Through transitions like that,it was a unique experience that
I think you know.
Young people and adults all theway up they experience it still
today.
Even the older adults theyexperience it when they're
grandparents and then they havefriends who aren't grandparents.
So you know it.
(11:18):
Just, there's some interestingrelational things that happen
all around you know, whether youhave children or not.
That do is all.
Audra (11:27):
Well, what we're going to do now is we're going to
share some of the stories ofthese women from her book, and
what she has done is she hasseparated them into categories,
and I have picked six, and Lauramay pick a few more, depending
on what kind of time we've got.
But we originally thought thatI would pick four, but I
(11:48):
couldn't, I just couldn't settleon four, and I was just,
finally was like, well, this ismy show, I can do what I want.
So I picked six, so six it is,so six it is.
And if we have time, maybe I'llask Laura what her favorite is.
If she can pick one, it'sprobably, like you know, picking
her favorite color, and I guessit depends on the day.
But we're going to start withthe goddesses, oh, okay, and I'm
(12:14):
going to pick my favoritegoddess because I think that
she's just complex andinteresting which is Artemis.
Oh, ah, yes.
Laura (12:25):
Artemis yes.
Audra (12:30):
And in case you guys don't all remember your Greek
mythology, she's the daughter ofZeus and she's very complex and
she's very strong and she'sjust complicated.
Laura (12:44):
Well, I liked her because she's known to be not
only the goddess of animals,wilderness, even childbirth, but
also the protectress of girlsup to the age of marriage.
So I like that because it's notjust a goddess who's out there,
you know, killing animals andfighting, and a warrior woman
(13:06):
you know she is those things butshe also is a protector of
children.
So it's not like she hates themor doesn't want anything to do
with them.
She's very you know, in themythology, she's very devoted to
them.
So I like that no-transcript.
Audra (13:47):
But she also happens to be my favorite Greek goddess,
because she's just, she'scomplicated.
Laura (13:54):
I recall too that the gift she asked for from her
powerful father was to be aneternal virgin.
So here we know why she didn'thave any kids.
But she asked for that so thatshe asked not to become a mother
, to have the gift to not be,but yet she then, with being a
(14:15):
protectress of girls, she becamesort of the mother of many,
many, many girls.
So there's, you know, Oprah'san example of that in our day as
well.
You know she has lots forlittle young women and girls all
over the world.
Audra (14:29):
Yes, that's actually.
That's a great.
That's a great comparison.
Actually I hadn't even thoughtof that.
That's a great comparison.
The next there's a little bitof a theme here because this is
Women of the Arena.
So there's a little bit of atheme here because this is Women
of the Arena.
So, there's a little bit of atheme here, it's okay.
We're going to Warrior Women,all right, and this is Opa Mae
(14:55):
Johnson.
Laura (14:57):
Oh, let me bring that up here to my memory.
Okay, oh yeah, marine, firstfemale Marine, what a story.
Huh, yes, hoo-ah, you know,fill administrative jobs while
(15:31):
the guys were overseas and theMarine Corps invited the women
to enlist and on the firstrecruiting day, as I recall, opa
was the first woman in a long.
She was in line, but she wasfirst in a long line there
waiting to enlist and so sheended up, you know, being
selected and they had to getreally strong mental and
physical skills and really onlya few women actually made that
(15:53):
cut and she was one of them.
I think by then she was in herlate 30s.
So they trained and skilledlike all the other Marines and
you know, as history has it,they were tough and she was one
of them.
Audra (16:08):
Very first female Marine .
Yeah, yes, that is not for thefaint of heart, especially not
then.
What year was that?
Laura (16:16):
Oh, gosh, probably you know, the war ended around 1919.
So it was several years beforethat.
So, yeah, and at that timeagain, like I say, she was in
her 30s and she, she was still,like you know, physically
meeting this, doing the samethings that the guy Marines were
doing, which you know at thattime was, was pretty impressive,
you know, women didn't work outlike they do today, or many
(16:38):
anyway.
So, yeah, she had some gumption, for sure to just say I'm going
to not only going to enlist,I'm going to be first in line.
And you know, literally, sheknows she would be the first,
first.
So, yeah, she was quite theyeah, world War I, she had
something, something, yes, shedid Definitely paved the way for
women in the military, for sureshe did, and she's probably
(17:11):
paved the way for the.
Audra (17:11):
We have some female colonels that are in the Marines
right now, that are fighterpilots and are leading entire
regiments of military men andwomen all over the world, so
it's because of her that that'seven possible.
Laura (17:27):
Yeah, more bad ass women out there today.
Sure, yes.
Audra (17:32):
Absolutely.
It's because of that woman thatit made it possible that all
the other branches invited womento join them, and now that
there are women that havethriving careers in all the
branches of the military,because of that woman Now we're
going to move to leaders.
Okay, and this one jumped outat me because I have not watched
(17:58):
it yet.
I'm saving it.
I want to watch it.
She has a new Netflixdocumentary and it's Shirley
Chisholm.
Laura (18:09):
Oh, yeah, man, yeah, she , oh, that's you know what?
I've seen it.
Actually I've seen the doc.
Oh, it's very good, yeah,really good.
And what is the gal who playsher?
Oh man, she's got pipes.
Really good, singer Gosh, she'snot just coming to me right now
, Anyway, it's very well acted.
(18:29):
So she, Shirley God, she'sanother one where you know she
started her career in somethingcompletely different.
I mean, she started her careerin education and while she was
in that field she got involvedin local politics, and little
did she know that that would beher total future.
I mean, before around age Ithink it was around 40, she was
(18:53):
elected to the New York StateAssembly and then she made her
way up, up, up to the US Houseof Representatives and she was
the first Black woman everelected to Congress, which was
amazing.
And then once she, once she wonthat, she'd go on to being
reelected, for I believe it wassix terms.
So obviously she was doingsomething right.
Audra (19:16):
Yeah, lady, she's the one that coined the phrase.
Laura (19:20):
If they don't have room for the table, bring a folding
chair Chair yes, and she alsohad the chutzpah where, I think
by her late 40s, she said youknow what?
I think I'm going to run forpresident and this was in the
60s, yeah, yeah.
So she ran in the USpresidential primaries and
(19:42):
during her campaign was it twoor three times?
People tried to assassinate her.
She survived assassinationattempts and now also, I think,
as a black woman, she didn'texactly expect to be nominated
for the Democratic candidate forpresident, but she did it so
that it would spark change andget people thinking like, well,
(20:04):
why the heck not Get used toseeing black women in really
really high up leadershippositions?
So you know, she really didthat.
But she continued to fight for,you know, an education, for
health care, equal rights andall of her congressional
positions.
So later she was, and she justreally started breaking a new
(20:25):
barrier to say, yeah, a woman, awoman, even a Black woman, can
run for president, just stellar.
And she's, of course, got many,many medals and awards,
including the Presidential Medalof Freedom, as I believe.
So, yeah, she was reallyhonored for all her great work
in her life.
Audra (20:46):
Just an amazing woman.
Amazing woman yeah.
Laura (20:49):
The documentary shouldn't be.
It's well overdue, for sure.
Audra (20:54):
Absolutely.
I'm looking forward to seeingit.
We're now moving to socialchangers and everybody should
perk up here.
Catherine McCormick.
Laura (21:08):
Now, what made you pick her?
Audra (21:11):
Come on.
Well, I think it's timelyBecause, if I'm not mistaken,
she is the architect of allowingwomen to take birth control
(21:32):
pills.
Heaven forbid, you have birthcontrol pills.
Laura (21:41):
Well, it even started before that, before the pill.
I mean, she heavily financedthe development of the pill.
I mean, she heavily financedthe development of the pill.
But before that she wasinstrumental in getting the
diaphragm to the United States,where at one time they were not
allowed here.
There was a black market forthem and not enough of them.
(22:02):
So she came up with a crazyplan but it ended up working.
For a while she posed as ascientist.
She went to diaphragmmanufacturers in Europe, got
lots of orders and then hiredseamstresses to sew the
diaphragms into the garments andthat's how they got shipped
(22:23):
into the United States.
I mean, what a crazy idea.
And it actually worked for awhile.
So the customs, you know.
People just saw the clothes anddidn't suspect a thing.
And so I guess all these womenwere walking in with all these
rubber diaphragms inside theirclothes.
Just, diaphragms were blackmarket.
(22:46):
Yes, couldn't have him in theStates?
Yeah, but her husband died.
Her husband was, you know, hadsome.
He was a wealthy businessmanand he got ill.
I believe he had dementia kindof early in life too.
So she cared for him for manyyears while all this other stuff
(23:07):
was going on.
But when he passed away.
She got a sizable estate andthat's when she said you know
what, moving on from thediaphragm, we've got to get the
pill here, and in big numbers.
And she helped finance thedevelopment and manufacturing of
it.
In the beginning she used a lotof her money, you know.
I think at the time it wasprobably only a couple million
bucks, but that's about 20million dollars today.
(23:29):
So she really was brave and howshe fought to get birth control
options into the United States.
But she also, you know, reallywas a financial force behind the
pill, so I felt like she neededto be recognized.
That's pretty badass.
Audra (23:46):
She put her money and her resources, yeah, badass.
She put her money and herresources, yeah, so that people
like you and I can can chuckleout loud and say that diaphragms
were black market and thingslike the pill are now you don't
even think about it, you justit's.
You it's second thought, andit's not even a second thought.
(24:08):
Oh, you need the pill.
Ok, right, it's justcommonplace now, because this
woman took huge risks, hugerisks that she would not even
realize in her lifetime wouldbecome so easy in her lifetime
would become so easy.
Laura (24:29):
Yeah, yeah, she was looking down from the heavens
and hopefully smiling Well, notcompletely, but the situation
but yeah, she was creative andalso really put her money where
her mouth was, you know, yeah,so thank you, catherine, good
one, she has affectedgenerations.
Audra (24:47):
So thank you, Catherine.
The last two that I've pickedand we might have time for you
to pick your favorites, but thelast two that I picked are
completely selfish, completelyselfish, fiery informers.
And this one I picked becauseof my heritage I am Hispanic,
(25:12):
and so this one I just love herand I love her story, and it is
Jovita Adar.
Laura (25:22):
Fighter for Mexican-American civil rights.
Yes, so, gosh, where to startwith her?
Well, I think her father wasknown as a community leader and
a civil rights activist and heran a family newspaper.
That was crucial, you know, atthe time, not only for blacks,
(25:45):
but Mexican-Americans as well,and so, as a young woman, she
started out as a reporter, youknow right from the get-go,
writing about segregation andhot, you know topics at the time
.
And so in her mid-20s sheorganized I think it was the
first, was it First MexicanCongress which started the
(26:06):
modern Mexican-American civilrights movement.
I see why maybe you'reinterested in her.
What else did you learn thatyou like about her?
Audra (26:16):
Well, she's a feisty Hispanic, which I resemble that
comment.
And she started somethingbecause she couldn't find it.
And she started somethingbecause she couldn't find it, so
she made it herself.
I also resemble that commentYep, yep, for sure you do.
So that is why I picked her.
(26:37):
Because she is just for selfishreasons, because I like her, I
think I'd like to if I could.
She'd be one of those peopleI'd like to have dinner with.
Laura (26:49):
Oh, yeah, for sure, I believe too.
She was working at a newspapercalled the El Progreso and she
wrote an article protesting thecurrent president, his decision
to send the US troops to theborder, the US troops to the
(27:10):
border.
And when the army and theborder security officials came
to the newspaper's doors, jovitastood her ground, did not let
them in and did not try her bestnot to let them shut down the
paper.
So not only was she writing andfighting for civil rights, she
was standing her ground to, youknow, not have them come in and
destroy what they were up to.
So she was a very brave person,an activist journalist who
(27:35):
really devoted to obviouslyequal rights, to
Mexican-Americans, for sure, andto the education of
Mexican-Americans as well.
What years are these?
Was she active?
Well, she was born in 1885 anddied in 1946.
And so, gosh, when she was inher 20s, I think she started out
(27:57):
as a reporter.
So it was just from her 20s allthe way to 46.
When she died was she involvedin this for pretty much her
whole adult life.
Audra (28:07):
But you could have written that yesterday.
Yeah, she was really brave,brave woman.
Yep, tessa agrees.
Laura (28:22):
That's funny.
She chimed in right at theright time.
Audra (28:25):
She sure did, tessa agrees right at the right time
she sure did disagrees.
And this last one is very, veryselfish, very personal, very
near and dear to my heart.
Um, I will give you a couple ofclues.
Um, I am a gold award recipient.
I received a presidentialrecognition because of that gold
(28:50):
award.
I received a scholarshipbecause of that gold award.
And this last one is a serverof the public and it is Juliet
Gordon Lowe who was the creatorof the Girl Scouts.
Laura (29:12):
Yes, yes, yes, she's a good one.
God, what was it?
The Boy Scouts?
Did you just hear in the news?
It's no longer the Boy Scouts,it's just called the Scouts.
Yes, it's just called thescouts.
Yes, sometimes they know what.
Will the girl scouts now becomescouts too?
Or how are they going to do?
Audra (29:31):
that it won't happen.
I don't.
I shouldn't say that it won'thappen.
I don't believe that it willhappen because it's against the
charter of what the girl scoutsstand for, of what juliet low uh
believed in, and the girlscouts stand for of what
Juliette Lowe believed in.
And the Girl Scouts have alwaysstood on the foundation of what
(29:52):
she has created, which hasalways been about the promotion
and leadership of girls andyoung women.
They've always stayed true tothat, from the day that they
have started it to now, for over100 years.
So I can't imagine that theywould change it today.
(30:13):
Because it's trendy, it's forthe development of girls into
women, so why would they changeit?
I just don't imagine that theywould.
I just described to you whyit's so personal to me, because
I worked really hard to get agold award and I got all this
(30:33):
recognition for it idea of theGirl Scouts when she was like in
her 40s, her husband had diedand you know, she just when I
think.
Laura (30:51):
I think she lost most of her wealth too when he did.
I don't I have to check on howexactly that occurred, but she
just said you know what?
I'm going to go travel.
I'm going to France and Europe.
And she went to India and in her50s she was in England and she
met a British general and warhero and who?
He was the founder of the BoyScouts, and she loved the idea
(31:17):
and he told her about there wasa group there in England called
the Girl Guides, the Girl Guidesand she thought, well, geez,
you know, I'm going to createthose groups, more of those
groups here.
And then she ended up comingback to the United States and
renamed it the Girl Scouts as aneducational and service
organization.
So she was, you're right,really the impetus on how the
(31:39):
Girl Scouts got to the UnitedStates and she really worked for
the Scouts until she died, Ithink in her 60s, early 60s, of
cancer.
So yeah, she was supportive ofthem all the way to her death,
which I thought was a little tooearly.
But you know, that's how itgoes.
Audra (31:58):
Well, it's one of my favorite organizations on the
planet.
She has changed millions ofgirls' lives.
One of my favorite troops is inNew York City.
It's Troop 6000.
It is for homeless girls.
One of my friends, that's great.
Yes, it's one of my friends whoalso happens to be a Women in
(32:23):
the Arena.
Alumni, shout out to you,michelle.
Her name is Michelle DeFeo.
She is the CEO of LaurentPierre Champagne here in the
Arena.
Alumni, shout out to you,michelle.
Her name is Michelle DeFeo.
She is the CEO of LaurentPierre Champagne here in the US.
She is a scout leader for them,and she is also a motherless
woman by choice, and she haschosen to be a scout leader for
(32:46):
Troop 6000, for homeless girls,and so that is why she was, why
I wanted to pick her last,because Juliette Lewis excuse me
, juliette Gordon-Lowe changedmillions of girls' lives and
(33:09):
women's lives and is stillaffecting lives now, decades
after her death.
Laura (33:16):
One of the pieces of trivia I love about her is she
was buried in her Girl Scoutuniform.
I just love that.
Audra (33:26):
Admittedly, I was never great at wearing that uniform.
I ditched that uniform long agoand just wore the sash because
I was like eh, and then afterthat, I think, I ditched the
sash and I just saved thepatches and, yeah, I was like
(33:47):
I'm fine, I'm good, I'm good.
Laura (33:50):
I don't want to come up like that.
I have my sash and I had mybadges and I remember the first
badge I got that went to theback of my sash and I thought,
oh, this is so cool, let's keepgoing.
No, the other girls had morethan me, but I liked, you know,
I liked the day where I wentonto the back.
Audra (34:08):
Now, Some girls had them on all over their jackets, the
ones that were like super cool,super cool.
So we have time for you to pick.
Laura (34:21):
Gosh, you know, I think, when we spoke before and you
said who's your favorite?
And I said, well, gosh, I was.
I think.
When we spoke before and yousaid, oh, who's your favorite?
And I said, well, gosh, I wasover 300 and counting before I
(34:41):
started researching this.
Going, laura, you have to stop,so to get it down to, you know,
100.
So I wish one would do I pickthat.
I'm just in the mood for today.
I mean, I love them all, ofcourse, and I, like I said I
tried to have there be highvariety, uh, world.
You know global women, uh, notjust from certain countries.
You know entertainment, um, oh,photographers.
Maybe I'll pick somebody fromthe photography, uh chapter.
(35:04):
I just uh learning about some.
This chapter is called LegendaryLens Women and some of these.
In that chapter there'sexamples of women who were war
photographers and some of thefirst to do photography for Life
magazine.
Catherine Leroy she's one Iguess can showcase that.
(35:29):
I love learning about her.
She was I got it 21.
She learned about the VietnamWar and she was so moved by
images she saw in magazines shedecided to go there herself and
she bought a one-way ticket toLaos, left with a camera and a
couple hundred bucks.
(35:50):
Wow, it was very, very rare atthe time.
Okay, so she wasn't aprofessional photographer, but
she went to the Associated Presswhen she got there to see if
she could, you know, take photosfor them.
And they asked her you know,okay, what's your experience?
And she said well, you know,she just lied and she said she
had experience.
They gave her the chance andshe totally delivered.
(36:12):
The thing that really was badassabout her before this was she's
one of the few women who hadher parachutes license and I
think that's what gave her alittle more gumption to go.
You know, I'm going over thereand I'm going to get some
pictures of what's really goingon.
Because she knew she could getonto some planes, right, so, and
she could parachute out of themjust like the guys did there.
(36:34):
So she was one of the onlyjournalists who did that, mind
you, you know, and a woman, soshe was able to get like all
kinds of shots that you know youcouldn't, you just can't get in
combat, because she was able toparachute, parachute down.
So she covered, you know,conflicts later in Iran Libya
(36:55):
just became internationallyfamous, but she had some, you
know, gumption to to go reallyget into some dangerous
situations and take photos.
So, yeah, that's one that Ireally love learning about.
Audra (37:11):
That's amazing, do you have one?
We have one, we have time forone more.
Oh, come on, I know.
Laura (37:19):
What can we agree on?
Maybe, let's see how aboutmaybe a creative type person who
would be fun to talk about?
Oh, they're all fun to talkabout.
That's see how about maybe acreative type person who would
be fun to talk about?
Oh, they're all fun to talkabout.
That's true.
Well, I have a chapter calledMovement in Melody where I
highlight, you know, movement asin dancers and the like, and
then melody singers andsongwriters and things like that
(37:41):
, that.
And there's a gal, a woman,named Lizzie Douglas.
So she was a really, reallypopular country blues artist in
a time when, you know, womenjust didn't do that.
But she was blessed with areally good voice and at 10, she
was already playing the banjoand playing at parties that you
(38:03):
know in her neighborhood.
And but when she was about 13,she thought I want to get out on
the road and I want to do this.
She ran away from home toMemphis to try to play music.
Okay, mind you, this is theearly 1900s, this is really
brave to do.
So she started playing instreet bands, cafes, clubs, and
(38:24):
she made a name for herself.
She even traveled with thecircus, the Ringling Brothers
Circus, when it was just gettinggoing and somebody found her.
A talent scout from ColumbiaRecords found her and the rest
is history.
She just worked with some of thebest premier blues guitarists
and songwriters of the 30s and40s blues guitarists and
songwriters of the 30s and 40sand she faced a lot of racism in
(38:50):
addition to being in sexism,you know, and she had to really
just take a lot of you know what, but she was just staying right
up there with the top of theblues men in the field and she's
also remembered because shecould whistle like the best of
them.
So she really could, you know,integrate that into her songs as
well.
So she was a blues singer andshe helped to influence, you
(39:13):
know, rhythm and blues and rockand roll to come.
So she was one of those forwardwomen early on in country and
blues.
So she's definitely worthlearning about.
Yeah, she had some charisma inthat song.
Audra (39:29):
Could we take the leap and say that she might have
influenced another childlesswoman by the name of Dolly
Parton?
Laura (39:41):
Very possible, very possible, yes, that she really
consciously decided she wantedher career and she knew that if
she had a child that it wouldjust not be in the best interest
of the child.
So I love that she's out thereand very vocal about it.
We need more candid storieslike that.
Clearly, the women give it.
Thought Bonnie Raitt's the sameway.
(40:01):
She's like why would I have akid and leave it and have it be
raised with nannies and handlers?
What good is that?
So women really think about itand they choose.
They choose what their priorityis, and if it's their creative
life, so be it.
Audra (40:16):
Yeah, well, clearly, from these stories that we've
shared and this is just afraction of the stories that are
in this book, which you've onlynarrowed it down to 100.
There are, there are thousandsmore out there.
This book just highlights 100of them and it's done so
beautifully.
Like I said, it's done in a waythat it can be digested of all
(40:41):
ages and you know, young, youngwomen, young adults, teenagers,
and for all of us, and it'sbeautifully illustrated,
wonderful stories, and it'senough to get you interested in
them and encourage you to go anddo your own investigation of
these women and learn more aboutthem.
(41:03):
That's what I love about thisbook.
I'm so excited.
Laura (41:10):
One of the most challenging was to take all the
information I learned with eachwoman and get it down to around
300 words or one page.
So on one page is the narrative.
The other page, the oppositepage, is the illustration by
just a very talented Talia Tuevathat I found Just got so lucky.
It was my first time workingwith an illustrator.
It was really super fun, but Iwanted it so you could just open
(41:33):
it up.
You see the picture, you do thenarrative.
Also, it's a book.
You can just open it and startanywhere, start wherever you're
inspired that particular day.
It's easy to swipe on tabletsand phones.
It's fun to swipe on tabletsand phones.
It's, you know, it's fun andeasy and I think thanks.
I agree, I was really pleasedwith just how it worked out
visually.
Audra (41:54):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
It's so beautiful and, before Ilet you go, because it's been
such a joy having you here andallowing me to be the ambassador
of these ladies stories,because they're not here to tell
their stories themselves.
So thank you for allowing me todo that.
Uh, if the those of you thathave been listening for a while,
(42:16):
this is where I get theopportunity to sit back from the
the mic and give you anopportunity to have a direct,
intimate moment with theaudience, without me
interrupting, so you can have amoment directly with them, to
leave them with a lastingthought, a moment that they can
(42:37):
take with them throughout theirday, just something that you can
say to encourage them whilethey're contemplating this, what
they've been learning today,and just some thoughts and
something they can think about.
So, laura, the mic is yours.
Oh, my goodness.
Laura (43:17):
It's really helping the importance of self-reflection
and on what it is we really wantand why we want it.
To really ask more deepquestions on why is it I think I
might want them, why am I notso sure?
Why am I moving away from it.
It's to really take more timeto just not answer yes or no or
(43:38):
yes and do what everybody elsedoes, but to really look at the
experiences that you're reallylooking for.
If you had children and askingyourself, gee, is that the only
way I can have that experience?
So it's again.
It's like looking more deeply atsome of these really big
decisions in our lives and, youknow, using it as an opportunity
(44:00):
to know oneself even moredeeply.
So that's one thing, andanother is like the women in
this book sometimes you just gotto lead your life and move
towards what you're mostinterested in, what you're drawn
to, and in the end, if you knowwhat, if that didn't include
kids, cool, fine, you know.
The good news is you've livedyour life to its fullest and
(44:23):
just you know, go toward what ismaking you passionate and
following your curiosities, andI firmly believe that you'll end
up in the place that's, youknow, you'll be the most happy.
Audra (44:33):
So and you might just do something that changes
generations.
You never know, never knowwhich might be super cool.
You might be known for a reallylong time.
That's right, laura, thank youso much for being here, just
(44:55):
allowing me to help you tellthese stories, because these
stories need to be told, andsince they're not here to tell
them themselves, I'm so gratefulthat you allowed me to tell
them.
And since they're not here totell them themselves, I'm so
grateful that you allowed me totell them.
So, thank you, I reallyappreciate it.
Yeah Well, I thank you, minnie,and I want to thank all of you
once again for being here, andwe'll see you again next time.
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