May 13, 2025 • 61 mins
Lizbeth Meredith's life reads like a thriller, but it's her real journey from domestic abuse survivor to international child recovery advocate that makes this conversation so powerful. After escaping an abusive marriage with her two young daughters, Lizbeth faced the unimaginable when her ex-husband abducted the children during a visit and fled overseas. What followed was a two-year international battle that tested every fiber of her being.
With remarkable candor, Lizbeth reveals how she navigated contradictory advice from government agencies, survived on minimal resources, and maintained hope when everything seemed lost. "I scheduled my worry," she explains, describing the disciplined emotional management that kept her functioning through the ordeal. When finally reunited with her daughters, she faced new challenges – they no longer spoke English and carried deep trauma from their experience.
The heart of Lizbeth's story isn't just about survival but transformation. Her professional work as a domestic violence advocate evolved into becoming a trauma-informed care trainer, fundamentally changing how she understood her daughters' behaviors and her own parenting approach. A powerful breakthrough came when her adult daughter experienced a mental health crisis that brought Lizbeth to a new level of understanding about trauma's lasting impact.
Today, Lizbeth's memoir "Pieces of Me: Rescuing My Kidnapped Daughters" has become a Lifetime movie ("Stolen by Their Father"), and through her speaking and podcast "Persistence U with Lizbeth," she helps others increase resilience by "taming trauma through storytelling." Her message resonates beyond those who've experienced similar traumas – she reminds us that setbacks don't define us but can refine us, turning our most difficult experiences into sources of strength and connection.
Visit https://lameredith.com/ to connect with Lizbeth and discover how your own challenges might become the foundation for unexpected strength and purpose.
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Episode Transcript
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Audra (00:00):
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week, you are in for atreat.
The woman that is joining methis week is such a remarkable
woman.
I cannot wait for you to meether.
Lisbeth Meredith is an author,a professional speaker and a
podcaster, whose first book,pieces of Me Rescuing my
(00:21):
Kidnapped Daughters, became a TVmovie under the name of Stolen
by their Father.
She works to increaseresilience by taming trauma and
crisis through storytelling.
After three decades of servingcrime survivors and offenders in
Alaska, lisbeth now enjoysworking from home in East
Tennessee and FaceTiming withher adult daughters and
grandpets.
I want to make sure that youhave access to connect with her
(00:44):
at lamerktithcom and don'tforget to listen to her at
Persistence U Podcast withLisbeth.
It is my pleasure and honor tointroduce to you Lisbeth Lisbeth
.
Thank you so much for beinghere and welcome to the show.
Lizbeth (01:00):
Audra.
I'm so excited and grateful toour mutual friend Heidi Love for
making that connection.
This is the highlight of myweek, no doubt.
Audra (01:10):
I am so excited for you to be here because you have a
remarkable life, an incrediblestory, and you are just a joy
and delight to talk to, to getto know, and nobody would guess
that you've had such anincredible story and life.
No one would guess the traumain your background and what has
(01:33):
led you to live such anincredible life of advocacy.
So before we get into yourincredible life of advocacy,
tell us a little bit about you.
Lizbeth (01:46):
Oh, thank you, and thank you for those kind words.
So, like you said, I live inEast Tennessee.
My roots began in, surprisingly, in Kentucky and very abruptly
I was spirited off to Alaskawhen I was a little toddler and
didn't really understand why,and I grew up feeling very other
(02:07):
than the people in my family.
You know they were a lot ofblonde-headed kids and there was
me with nearly black hair and Ijust felt like I didn't belong
and I couldn't figure out why.
As soon as I understood why thatI had been taken from my father
and then raised with siblingswho weren't full siblings but
they're definitely my sisters Iknew I was in a land that I
(02:29):
probably didn't belong in and Ijust sort of vowed as a
youngster to make differentchoices.
I thought, man, I'll neverdivorce when I get older, my
kids will never have to look fortheir real father and there
won't be lawyers in their livesor domestic violence like I grew
up with a lot of family strifeand tensions and, frankly,
(02:51):
violence, only to find myself ina shelter with my two young
daughters when I was in mymid-20s.
So I didn't do a lot of thework.
That would have been superhelpful.
Didn't know how to start, butas a young person I just felt
like man adulting seems reallyhard.
(03:11):
Oh great, there's someone wholooks like he's going to rescue
me from it.
And little did I know that thatwould be a decision that paid
dividends for not just me, butfor people in my community for a
long long time Now.
Audra (03:33):
Adulting is not for the faint of heart.
I say it a lot, I actually sayit a lot to my kids that
adulting has very little upside,that some of the upsides only
include you don't have to livewith your mother.
But other than that, there'svery, very little upside to
adulting.
But other than that, there'svery, very little upside to
adulting.
But especially if you are anadult that has grown up with
trauma in your background, youdon't know that you are
(03:57):
repeating habits that you grewup with, because you really
don't know the difference.
Don't know the differencebecause the habits that you grow
up with and the things that youdo feel normal.
The treatment that you receivefeels normal because that's the
environment that you were in.
So you find yourself drawn tocertain types of people because
(04:21):
that's a normal environment,that's the normal treatment.
So you don't know what healthyis versus abusive, and you
probably found yourself in asituation where, oh, here's a
guy.
I think he loves me, I thinkthat this is what love feels
(04:44):
like and he's going to rescue me.
Am I on a similar track?
Lizbeth (04:49):
Amen.
It's like a magnetic forcecomes in and the next thing, you
know like?
I remember telling someone Iknew he was the one because he
felt like home and fortunately,had I really thought through
that, I might have said yikes,I'd never run in another
direction.
But I just didn't know betterat that time and so I went ahead
(05:14):
and let that magnet pull meright in, and it didn't take
long for things to go very, verysideways and for me to realize
love is not just this initialimpression or attraction or,
frankly, an emotion.
It's something much strongerthan that and we did not have
that amongst us.
Audra (05:36):
So you got married very young.
How old were you when you andyour former spouse got married?
Lizbeth (05:44):
How old were you when you and your former spouse got
married?
I was 21.
So I was.
I think I was younger in someways because I had was fairly
innocent and didn't have a lotof experience with men, but I
was.
I met him when I was 20 ormaybe just turned 21.
And I tell people I am theoriginal 90 day fiance.
Like, I met him and the nextthing you know, I have a ring on
(06:07):
my finger.
By November we met in, I'mthinking, august, and he, like
90 Day Fiance.
He was an American citizen buthe was from another country and
grew up in that other countryand had only been in the States
for not all that long.
But I just felt so smartbecause I thought, look, I
checked and I already found outhe's a citizen, so he's not
(06:30):
using me for any untowardpurposes.
Look at me and you know Ireally knew so little about him.
I think, more importantly,audra, I knew so little about
myself and I think that'ssomething that I see.
I live in the South now.
I see a lot of people Mary,very young here still and it
(06:50):
breaks my heart because ifsomething is to last forever,
what's the rush?
And also, what do we know ofourselves when we're barely an
adult, our brains haven't evenfully developed.
We're years away from thathappening and that's such a big
and beautiful decision.
Audra (07:10):
Why rush?
I mean, let's face it, I'm 53.
I am still figuring myself out,me too.
I mean, when you're in your 20s, I mean, in the grand scheme of
things, as far as your brain isconcerned, you are just barely
barely having it fully formed.
Lizbeth (07:47):
I mean, it barely is fully formed at 25, but you
don't hardly have any experience, any life experience to compare
this big beautiful life to, andyou compared it to what you
felt was normal at 21.
Yikes, and it was somethingthat just kept paying dividends
even after I left, you know.
For it took four years for meto decide to leave him, and it
was awful from the first week.
I mean awful, and while itwasn't physically abusive from
(08:09):
the first week it didn't need tobe he just would disappear for
days at a time.
There was suddenly nothing thathe liked about me, and when he
was around which wasn't toooften he let me know every
little detail and he also didn'tseem to like my family and in
some ways, maybe compared to his.
(08:31):
That was a fair assessment.
Okay, but he didn't want me tohang out with certain friends.
You know, it was just like hedidn't like me, but he didn't
want anyone else to have thechance to.
And I think what I didn'trealize then was if the only
person in your life says reallynegative things about you, if
(08:51):
you're in community, if you haveyour friends and your family,
maybe your job or your hobbies,you think to yourself what's
wrong with this person sayingthis to me?
What in the world?
How were they raised?
But if you're isolated, itmakes sense because there's no
one to counterbalance thosemessages and say you're not
(09:12):
perfect, but you've got mightyfine positive attributes and you
can work on some of the others,you know.
So it took little by little bylittle.
I didn't notice it until I wasvery isolated and he was sort of
the last man standing in mylife and I got laid off from my
(09:33):
job and was having our baby andI became very dependent.
Audra (09:40):
And you very quickly had two children, one right after
the other.
Lizbeth (09:58):
So now you're isolated with two little babies.
It Then add to that I had apartner who was escalating in
bad behaviors, and so he startedcutting off my own financial
ability to get a hold of moneyin my account.
And I remember a time when myoldest daughter was an infant
(10:21):
and I was pregnant with myyoungest and he had me on about
a $25 a week grocery plan.
I wouldn't buy diapers inAlaska for that price even back
then, and so I was really leftto figure out who is the more
important choice.
Is it the upcoming baby or isit the baby that I'm holding?
(10:42):
You know, who do I choose?
And it was awful.
I did belong to a new mother'sgroup.
There was a group that hedidn't object to, and it was at
a church that I didn'tparticularly go to, but I could
go to that without bothering himwhatsoever.
And someone I befriended at thenew mother's group came by and
(11:05):
saw me at one point when I wasvery, very pregnant with my
second daughter, and saw I thinkshe went to go open the
refrigerator, put something inand saw we didn't have anything,
and she didn't say anything tome, but I got a donation.
At about Christmas time Astranger showed up and delivered
a ton of food and pregnancyclothes was so beautiful and
(11:28):
we're still friends today.
This person and I and you knowwe need each other in the worst
(11:49):
of times and I think what peopleforget is folks who are under
coercive control, whether it'sintimate partner violence or
even a cult or whatever.
You're isolated so you don'teven have your stronghold, the
people and things that helpsupport you to help you out of
it.
Audra (12:10):
You're in a very, very extreme situation, so the fact
that you got the strength toleave is extraordinary.
So you did this for four years.
Lizbeth (12:24):
Yes, yes, how long Dev.
For four years.
Yes, yes, how long Devastatingyears.
You were only 25.
Audra (12:32):
Right when I left.
You were 25 when you left withtwo tiny little babies.
Lizbeth (12:40):
Two adorable little girls.
I had been, you know, triggerwarning but I had been injured
in front of my oldest daughterand it was bad.
You know, it was really bad.
I didn't feel then that I wasworthy of a better future.
(13:08):
I really didn't think that way.
I didn't say to myself I don'tdeserve to be treated like this.
But when that happened in frontof my daughter I knew she
deserved a better future and thechances of things turning out
well for her if she grew up in ahome like this were about zero.
So that helped a lot.
That really helped me figureout I need to make a big change
(13:31):
and I did.
This was pre-violence againstwomen act.
This was pre-police have tomake an arrest sort of an act.
So I knew back then that whenyou called the police they used
to do what sometimes I thinkthey still do it but pick up the
angry person in the houseUsually, you know, it was often
(13:53):
the husband not always Drive himaround the block, drop him off,
and they would be on their way.
Cool down, sir.
You just need to cool down andthat's it.
And I couldn't afford for thatto happen.
So I called someone else that Iknew, a lawyer and she sent a
(14:16):
taxi for me, and that was thebeginning of a new beginning.
Audra (14:18):
So this new beginning was not easy.
You found yourself in a shelterwith these two little girls.
Um, at what point, what did youfind?
That your former spouse decidedto take matters into his own
(14:42):
hands and decide to hurt you bytaking his daughters away from
you.
Lizbeth (14:50):
Right, Well, and I should say first that the last
thing in the world I think mostpeople want to hear is that they
should go to a shelter or thatthey should go to domestic
violence treatment.
You know a place that hasservices for survivors of
domestic violence, so I didn'twant to do any of that.
First, I just went to afriend's place and my husband
(15:11):
tracked me there right away andso eventually I went to the
shelter and truthfully, it wasvery stressful, but there was a
lot of advantages and I tried toremind people that there are
things that one can learn andaccess if they do the thing they
don't want to do sometimes thatthey'll never be able to do on
(15:32):
their own very easily.
So I did go to that shelter andthat was the beginning of many
good micro decisions.
I focused very hard on beingwhat I like to call a good
victim, because people arereally annoyed with victims of
domestic abuse.
Often and I know that it can befrustrating it's not just that
(15:53):
they're being rude.
Sometimes it's very frustratingto hear the same story and not
see change year after year.
But I decided no, no, no, Iwould not be that.
I will not go back to him, Iwill not complain loudly, I will
get a degree.
I eventually decided I will getmy degree, I will work.
I won't ask for too much.
I'll keep moving forward.
(16:13):
Take the girls to counseling,play therapy, play by the rules.
I really tried to color withinthe lines and make sure that I
set us up for success.
What I realized later was I musthave had an imaginary thought,
some sort of fantasy that I hadcontrol over his behavior.
You know, I felt like to enddomestic violence and I think a
(16:35):
lot of people believe this today.
To end domestic violence,victims need to make better
choices.
Some people will say victimsneed to have better self-esteem.
You know, like just get goodself-esteem and this wouldn't
happen in the first place.
Well, that's not true.
But I thought that I had put itinto things and so I went
through that horrific divorce.
(16:56):
It took almost two years.
I had to rely on legal aid.
He kept stalking me.
It was not easy.
There were days where and oneday in particular I get a knock
at the door it's ChildProtective Services coming
because there's been anallegation of abused my kids.
So the girls are searched.
That day public assistancecomes by our home to check to
(17:19):
see if I actually had a manliving with me, because there
had been an anonymous report manliving with me, because there
had been an anonymous report.
I wonder who made that reportthat there was a man living with
me.
I have apropos of nothing.
Size nine and a half feet.
They're kind of big for a woman.
I'm not a short woman.
So when they saw blue skis inmy closet cross-country skis,
(17:42):
someone had gifted me.
They're like well, that provesthat there is a man living with
you.
I'm like no, these are my feet,watch me slide my feet in.
None of this was funny at thetime, but this was the life I
led While I was trying to go toschool.
My children were suffering theirown losses.
Sometimes he would show up forvisits.
A lot of times he wouldn't.
(18:03):
But it's always incumbent uponthe parent to get their child
ready and have them waiting atthe door, and if they choose to
do something then they could befined a couple hundred dollars a
day for missed visits.
So my kids didn't see himregularly, but when they did and
they got old enough to speak,the things they would come home
(18:24):
with were terrifying.
Daddy says you're going to die,you're going to hell.
Daddy says you won't love usanymore.
Daddy says you'll find someonenew.
Daddy says I think at one pointone of my daughters said he's
going to kill you.
So scary messages for littlekids to have to bring back to
(18:45):
their mother.
But four and a half years laterfour years later, not four and a
half, four exact years later Imade it.
Within two years I'd finishedup that college degree.
So I did it.
I got a wonderful job as anadvocate in a domestic violence
agency the same one I'd fled to.
So I had to do trainings forlaw enforcement and judges and
(19:08):
talk about my real experiencesand help women who weren't in
the shelter to learn to be theirown best advocate.
So it was an amazing job for$10 an hour and you know I loved
it.
I lived with a roommate who wasjust like a grandmother to my
children, but better than theones that they were that they
(19:29):
inherited.
So I just felt like, in someways, I was living the dream, if
I could just deal with theanxiety of all the stalking.
And then, sure enough, fouryears after I left him, he took
our daughters and fled thecountry on a visit and I didn't
see them for more than two years.
By the time I did, they nolonger spoke the language that I
(19:53):
did.
So they've gone throughcountless difficult
circumstances.
I am not saying this to blamemyself, but I want to be very
clear.
This was not so that he couldbe with the kids.
It was to punish me because Istepped out and left, and it was
quite a punishment, it was.
Audra (20:16):
So this, this experience , and you were trying.
You were trying to be you usedan interesting word, trying to
be a good victim, which I thinkis interesting.
The way that you described thatas being a good victim, that
(20:37):
you described that as being agood victim being, I guess,
better than what all the othershad been before.
It's ridiculous really, which,when you say it out loud, just
sounds the bizarre.
But I understand why you wereexplaining it that way because
everybody, there's not a wholelot of sympathy for the victim,
which I don't understand why.
Because they're like why don'tyou leave?
(20:58):
Why don't you leave?
Because there's not a whole lotof sympathy for the victim,
which I don't understand why, um, because they're like why don't
you leave?
Why don't you leave this?
Because it's not easy, becausebecause the system,
unfortunately, is still not setup to protect the victim.
So you're in this situation,going I'm gonna do this
differently, I'm gonna outsmartthis system, I'm going to fix
this.
And you did everything right.
And he outsmarted the system.
(21:20):
He outsmarted it and this iswhat triggered your.
It souped up your advocacy.
You thought, okay, I dideverything right and it still
had a backlash on me.
Now I'm going to kick this up anotch.
Now I'm pissed.
Now, this isn't just I'm angry.
(21:44):
Now I'm pissed because now youhave taken my children to
another country and now you haveto fight to get your children
back from another country, whichis not going to be easy.
How did you survive two yearswithout your children?
(22:04):
I'm assuming you didn't haveany contact with them whatsoever
.
Lizbeth (22:09):
Not one phone call, not one picture, not one letter,
nothing.
I think there were a few thingsthat helped me survive One.
You know I've been treated very, very badly in that marriage
but when I got out and went tothe shelter and in some ways not
(22:30):
having a supportive family atthe time, I now know many more
of my family members and I canhonestly tell you that a number
of them would have stepped uphad they known, but I didn't
know them then.
I shouldn't know them.
So having no family in mycorner and no resources in some
ways was a huge strength andbeing and optimistic because I
(22:54):
had to land on my feet, I had tolearn to not only get a support
system but nurture it along andnot burn them out, and that
meant that I needed to rely onthings like support groups and
other places.
You know I was a domestic abuseadvocate by the time my kids
were kidnapped, but I also founda lot of comfort in things like
(23:19):
a parenting support group thatI got to be a part of for
parents whose kids werekidnapped and taken out of
country.
Whenever I went to a resourcelike, let's say, the police as
an example and that didn'talways go well, really did not
at all.
But when I went to one resourceI would say, what else do you
suggest?
And I would follow thesuggestion I really did.
(23:42):
And then I would ask that nextplace well, what else would you
suggest?
Is there anything I definitelyshouldn't be doing that I might
want to do?
Important questions.
I really tried to navigate abunch of systems I didn't
understand and that didn'tunderstand each other.
(24:03):
So, as an example, the StateDepartment.
You know, with your kids takenout of country, you get a hold
of the State Department, youfile all these documents, blah,
blah, blah.
They then finished thepreliminary paperwork.
The person assigned to my casesaid well, be sure and just
cooperate with the police, dowhatever they say.
I did and the police eventually, after a lot of prodding and me
(24:25):
going to the newspaper, issueda warrant for my ex-husband.
And then the State Departmentturned around and said this is
the dumbest, you know, mostridiculous thing you could have
done.
This is so horrific.
Why would you do this Now?
You'll never get your childrenback and it's that kind of thing
.
Nobody was trying to be harmful, but it's hard, it's very
(24:47):
difficult.
If my children had been takento Kentucky it would have been
difficult, but much less anothercountry.
You're talking about all ofthese government systems who
don't speak with one another.
So it really relied on me.
Thank goodness I picked the jobthat I did.
I had wonderful role models.
My executive director was superhelpful and very well
(25:09):
politically connected, but Ialso used her as a role model,
like how do you keep it togetherduring really hard times?
And you know, I did learn tofind people who had bits and
bobs of the things that I wantedto be when I grew up, and so
not everyone had all of it Noneof us do.
(25:29):
But trying to find people thatI wanted to, women that I wanted
to kind of be an understudy toor hang out with or have as my
role model, I listened whenfriends told me certain things
there's I say this all the timeit just meant the world to me.
A friend of mine once told meearly on when I had left my
(25:51):
husband, my kids I don't thinkwe're even missing them.
You're going to need toschedule your worry.
You're really going to have todo that.
You're going to have to notbring it to work, not talk about
it all the time to everyonethat you come into contact with
and it's real tempting.
But give yourself an hour a dayto simply grieve, be angry,
(26:15):
feel sorry for yourself, crywhatever you need to do.
Don't suppress your feelings.
Honor them in that hour.
After that, you got 23 more ina day to do what you do, to keep
moving forward.
That really did help and not,you know, had I had acute mental
health issues then, which laterI had some really strong ones,
(26:36):
but I, you know I would have hadto get medication or do
whatever.
First, I did march my fannyinto counseling and because I
couldn't afford much, I gotwhatever the state had for me,
basically on a wait list.
It was still great.
It was great.
I made sure that I reached outfor support and that I wasn't
saying to myself any longerbecause this is a lot of what
(26:57):
got me in trouble in the firstplace.
I got this.
I can do this myself.
No, none of us really can.
When it matters, when somethingmatters greatly, we really need
help.
Audra (27:09):
I mean two long years.
Thank goodness you hadcollected a support system,
listened to the advice and heldon for dear life is basically
what you did.
You held on to your senses andyour wits for two years to be
able to bring your girls home.
(27:30):
But what I think I am soimpressed with is that you could
have taken all of thatknowledge that you gathered
while trying to bring your girlshome and you could have just
kept it at that.
You could have just said, okay,I accomplished this, I brought
(27:54):
my girls home, they're home safe, I'm done, I'm going to be home
, I'm going to recover with them, I'm going to make sure that
they're recovered and I don'twant to ever do this again.
You did not.
You took all of thisinformation, all of this
research, all of the connectionsthat you took, that you made,
(28:16):
all of the information that yougathered everything and, like I
said in the beginning, you tookyour pain, you took your
experience and you took yourknowledge and you turned it up
to a 10.
It up to a 10 and you've becomethis amazing advocate for
(28:38):
others that have been insituations just like you.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat your experience has been
like as an advocate for othersthat have been in your situation
, both here, domestically, andabroad.
Lizbeth (28:52):
Thank you, thank you so much for saying that and please
know and maybe we'll doubleback to this but I made huge
mistakes along the way parentingtraumatized children, and there
were things that I just didn'tknow and made things worse at
times.
So I want to be real clear thatthis wasn't just a super smooth
process.
But I was so fortunate toreturn after three and a half
(29:17):
months was the second trip Itook and I was able to come back
to my job, where I now made $12an hour and I often say, well,
it was a $100,000 problem on avery slim budget.
But I will tell you, thecommunity was so excited when I
got home I did get to return tothat job.
(29:38):
I was in rough shape and itwould have been ideal had I been
had more leave to focus on mymental health and the kids, but
I didn't.
I had to go back the very nextworkday.
Basically, I mean, I had reallyburned through not just my
leave, but employees had donatedleave.
I had burned through all of itand what a fortunate person I
(30:02):
was to have that to begin with.
Helping teach people to advocatefor themselves that job was the
perfect job for it and my lifein some ways had been the
perfect case study, because I dobelieve if somebody would have
rolled right in at my time ofneed and said, hey, I got this,
(30:24):
don't worry about it, I canwrite big checks and I'll take
care of all the details.
You just show up when we needyou.
I would have said, yes, please.
And I still hear a lot frompeople who are kind of looking
for that from me today and Ican't do that.
I can't go help people gettheir children or spend
individual time troubleshootinghow to get them back.
(30:45):
But what I can do is teachpeople to be the best that I
know, to be their own bestadvocate.
And it really does have so muchto do with we start with a
mindset and self-care, takinggood care of ourselves and the
idea that early on in whateverwe're going through that hurts
(31:07):
so much, we could help someoneelse later If in between, when
it happens to us and when we getto them, we take stock of what
we're learning, what worked andwhat didn't.
And I feel like to some extent,I had an unfair advantage
because I was so emotionallydamaged by the time that my kids
(31:28):
were kidnapped that there was acertain part of removal.
So I had really thought aboutlife as a story.
You know there's a beginning, amiddle and an end, and none of
us, when we're born, we didn'twrite our beginning.
You know we get what people say.
We all have equal chances.
I don't agree.
I don't agree whatsoever.
(31:49):
Depending on where you're bornin the world especially, we
don't get to choose a whole lotof things, but we are handed
something.
Born in the world especially,we don't get to choose a whole
lot of things, but we are handedsomething.
And in the middle we'refortunate if we can start
shaping or influencing some ofit to where we can feel proud of
the ending, no matter whathappens, because a lot of things
will happen out of our control.
(32:09):
But if we can just have moreopportunity to influence it,
that will be useful.
And so for me, I would thinkthis is a story.
It's going to have a big.
It's had a beginning.
I'm in the middle, ooh, and I'menvisioning a different ending,
and you know that helped me alot.
It did.
(32:29):
There were certain theme songsthat I would have running around
in my mind when I was feelingso much despair and so much
hopelessness, and I would thinkI know, when my kids get off the
plane I'll be thinking aboutthis song, you know, and I would
just allow myself to envisionthat beautiful thing.
(32:50):
So then, when I was arrestedwrongfully in Greece, when my
attorneys quit and I don't blamethem because I didn't pay them
fully, my Greek attorneys whenso many setbacks happened, when
I had a police officer who waslooking to date me rather than
helping me, I could get throughsome of that just thinking it'll
(33:11):
make great story later, whichit did, turns out.
Turns out people love.
Tragedy Makes a great book.
Woohoo, thank you.
But you know, it really helpedto have that vision.
But I think for all of us, if wecan remember, no matter what
we're going through, someoneelse has already walked through
(33:32):
it something similar, and whatskills am I learning in the
midst of it?
I could tell you in greatdetail back then who didn't show
up that I thought would have tohelp in my life, because that's
the normal thing is, our brainsare kind of wired to be a
little bit negative.
But I started thinking oh, waita minute, look at all the
(33:53):
unexpected people, people inGreece I'd never met helped
People.
You know, one person in Turkeytried to help in the country of
Turkey.
Countless Alaskans responded tothis newspaper stories that
were coming out about my kids.
More often than not, it wasfabulous and delightful and
(34:17):
really heartfelt.
And there are always going tobe those people who are a little
trollish.
That's okay, you know.
That's okay, you know feel badfor them, but we don't have to
hold on to it.
So, in the middle of all of abad time, as far as teaching
people to be their own bestadvocate, I would say starting
out with knowing where we wantto go, really being intentional
(34:39):
about when we emote so that wedon't burn out our support
systems.
We really do need supportgroups for certain things, like
if you're going through, let'ssay, a divorce or a spouse that
died, for a while your friendswill be there and they'll be
happy to do so.
There comes a time when theymight not be, and so
diversifying and making surethat we have a place to put that
(35:01):
doesn't mean that they don'tcare, but we don't want to just
take over.
They got their own tragedies,their own life and their own
hardships.
So doing, you know, definitelymodulating a support system and
then remembering to contribute,not just to take, in the midst
of that.
For me that was some of the mostimportant lessons learned in
(35:23):
advocacy and I really failed attimes.
People would say you know agood friend, say to me you know,
sometimes you just suck the airright out of the room and it
was terrible.
Sometimes you just suck the airright out of the room and it
was terrible.
It wasn't an ideal message, butI needed to hear it Because you
know, if you're not told thosethings, you can see your
friendships becoming scarce andyou not knowing why, because
(35:45):
they were too tactful to tellyou that you're all about
yourself anymore in this crisis.
Audra (35:52):
You'd mentioned some other mistakes that you had made
.
Is there other things that youhad made that you're like oh, I
really blew it on that one, andmaybe they are mistakes that we
all make.
It may not have been in thesesame situations that we could
learn from it too.
Lizbeth (36:10):
Right, and thank you for bringing that up.
I mean there were so many tochoose from.
But I am thinking especiallywhen my kids came back from
Greece, my attitude was well, Ishould say that we had
fundraisers.
People donated.
They were so kind I got to keepmy job.
(36:32):
Donated.
They were so kind I got to keepmy job.
I wasn't unemployed.
I mean that in itself wasmiraculous.
So I felt very guilty, I feltvery much indebted and basically
, without meaning to, gave mykids the impression that, okay,
you're back now.
Here's where we'll go tocounseling.
You know for sure, you havecounseling.
(36:52):
Here's some sports, a goodschool, all of the things.
Don't complain about it.
You've got all these people tobe thankful to.
You know, I impressed upon themwithout saying it expressly you
should invent the cure to AIDS,because so many people have
(37:12):
shown up for you that you don'teven know.
So be sure and be grateful.
That message was very stifling.
It was a lot of pressure onlittle kids, a lot of pressure
on little kids that I didn'teven know what all they'd been
through and I'm still learning.
They're in their 30s and I'mstill learning.
So raising them as I'd beenraised in the bootstraps
(37:36):
generation did zero percent good, as near as I can tell.
It could be traumatizing,difficult and guess what?
I was in no space to be verynurturing when they came back
for a while because I literallyhad some psychotic symptoms of
my own post-traumatic stressdisorder and so I was a hot mess
(37:59):
just trying to keep it together.
And I did choose to work in thefield, and I like to say to
people I actually did work forthree decades in the field.
That often failed me thejustice system.
But what was so helpful aboutthat was I had continuing
education.
So I got my master's degree andI did some other things, but I
(38:22):
kept getting continuingeducation.
So I got my master's degree andI did, you know, some other
things, but I kept gettingcontinuing education at work.
And not only that, I helpedserve people whose lives made
mine look like child's play.
I mean, there were people upuntil the day I retired, that it
looked like I had just beenliving the dream my entire life.
Theirs was so difficult beenliving the dream my entire life
(38:46):
Theirs was so difficult.
And when I became atrauma-informed care trainer and
that was like the last 10 yearsof my probation work as a
probation supervisor, that was agame changer and I'll never
forget.
I was trying to finish my bookthe first book, my memoir and my
oldest daughter had had a hugemental health break and she was
like a little kid again.
(39:07):
She didn't just have a mentalhealth break, it was like it
brought her back to the age inwhich she was taken, and so I
had thought that we were on apath where things were just
about to get better because shewas like 19 when this happened
about to get better because shewas like 19 when this happened
and instead it was quite theopposite.
So she called me at work, asI'm at a training for
(39:28):
trauma-informed care trainers,and suddenly I knew something.
It was like for me that was myown snap.
That was a break where Iunderstood oh my gosh, I have
been doing this wrong and Iliterally have got to humble
myself and learn the best that Ican.
What can I do to help the kidsheal and developmentally reach
(39:52):
their milestones?
And Tough Love was not doing it.
They're amazing young womentoday.
But that was a huge, huge momentfor me, and I began my book
with that day, although I had totake some of it out because I
was accidentally sharing mydaughter's story and it wasn't
mine to share, but, um, it wasvery, very, very helpful to
(40:16):
learn that, instead of sayingwhat's wrong with you what is
wrong with you which I didn'texpressly say, but that's the
implied impression ofbootstrapping when you meet
someone with dysfunction what'swrong with you Just can you not
get it together and instead,looking at her with empathy and
wondering what happened to youand I am confident that there's
(40:41):
more that I don't know I'm goingto give you that benefit of the
doubt and make sure you havethe resources you need and I'll
see you strength-based, asopposed to your foibles, the
things that hurt.
Audra (40:57):
How has that changed?
Or how did that change when youwere advocating for children of
trauma, instead of seeing thesekids and putting them in
therapy and going, oh, they'rekids, they're resilient, they'll
be fine, they'll bounce back,they'll be better, and then
(41:19):
seeing that, well, no, thattrauma stays with you.
I've heard that trauma, whileit is emotional trauma, actually
sits in the body, physicallysomewhere.
So how did that change the wayyou approached it once you saw
the way your daughter had beenaffected and how it made her
(41:42):
revert back as a childemotionally?
Lizbeth (41:46):
That was so tough.
That was just so tough.
And even before I was atrauma-informed care trainer, I
had left domestic abuse advocacyto become a child abuse
investigator abuse investigator.
So some of the same childrenwhose mothers I had served were
(42:07):
caught up in the childprotective system, where then
years later I would find them inthe juvenile delinquency system
.
So some of the kids I used tojoke like I should be in your
baby album.
Do you want a picture?
We've been together a long time.
But what I didn't realize, evenas a child abuse investigator,
was how much kids even pre-birthchildren, much less infants are
(42:31):
impacted by what's going on inthe home.
They don't have to witness itpersonally, they don't have to
have their eyeballs on parentsand their beat injuries.
Just being in the home withthat tension it's like a hotline
to their little hearts.
So for me that was.
First of all, I was engulfedwith a whole lot of guilt with
(42:52):
my oldest daughter.
We still had some things towork out, but my therapist
turned into more of a parentingcoach for me at that point and
really served her needs buthelped me be the best advocate
for her also and with other kidsin the system.
What I learned to do was to letthem know that you know they
(43:15):
were still accountable for theiractions.
I never want people to thinkthat trauma-informed care is
like green lighting, badbehavior in people or there's no
hope for any of us.
You know we cannot allowcriminal conduct to go on and
say well, it was just you onlyknew what they went through, you
would not think they should behaving consequences.
(43:36):
No, no, no, no.
People need consequences.
That's part of healing.
But letting the juveniles knowthat I served and the same with
adult women later and I've donesome coaching work but letting
people know that I see yourpotential, I see who you are, I
want the best for you.
(43:56):
I'm never going to work harderthan you do for your own
progress, but I will be with youduring this journey and I
understand it's not going to bea perfect straight line to
success.
You know success is up and downand whatever, but in the
journey that's where a lot ofthe gold is.
So it really helped so much.
(44:18):
Before it was, it was verycommon for us to say to
probationers, whether they wereadults or juveniles you know I'm
going to get paid one way orthe other, so you can do what
you like, because it seemed likesometimes it didn't just seem
like sometimes people wereacting out to get that attention
.
So to combat that, well, I'llget paid one way or the other.
You do what you need, butyou're going to have
(44:39):
consequences.
And a juvenile once told me Ineed to hear from you that you
care that I succeed.
That's all I want to hear, thatyou care that I succeed.
I know my success isn't yourproblem, that's me but I want to
know that this relationshipmatters and that you care that I
(45:00):
do succeed.
And I said that from every youknow pretty much every
interaction on after that.
Audra (45:07):
Wow, a child that had that sense of self, enough
self-awareness, regardless ofwhat that poor child had been
going through at that point, hadenough self-awareness to say I
need to know that I matter tosomebody, anybody, and if the
(45:29):
only person that I haveavailable to me is you, well
then I need to know that Imatter to you.
I don't know who that child is,but I applaud that child for
having the strength and theenough sense of self.
It might have been desperationand saying that to you and
saying, please make me matter toyou, because that changed you
(45:52):
and every child thereafter Idon't know if that child, if
you're still in contact withthat child, bravo, bravo, and I
am so proud of whomever that is.
You changed by standing up toyou.
That child changed lives, right, probably changed generations.
(46:12):
Doesn't even realize that thatchild did that.
Lizbeth (46:15):
A definite truth teller , a definite truth teller, and
really the job was in many waysvery inspirational Because you
could see people surviving theunimaginable and sometimes going
on to do in a short period oftime because we didn't have them
forever.
Pretty amazing stuff, butalways trying to do a little and
(46:49):
trying to do a little, notalways.
Audra (46:50):
Often, I should say more honestly, often trying to do
better than what was modeled forthem, and that's certainly not
easy.
No, Because they didn't have afoundation to do it.
So they were making it up asthey were going along.
Lizbeth (47:02):
Right, much like yourself, you were making it up
as you went along, because itwasn't modeled for you.
It was not, it was not.
And I will say my parents wereboth high school dropouts and I
feel like they were both hardworkers and I mean, when you
look at what they were goingthrough historically, that's one
advantage of writing a book islike you have to really get into
(47:24):
your parents' heads or whoeveryou're writing about.
But I thought, finally, Istarted thinking about, well,
what were they going through?
Oh wow, you know, they didn'thave much of a shot, either
being born or surviving theGreat Depression, not having
access to education, not havingrole models that helped support
them, because everyone's insurvival mode.
(47:45):
It was hard for them.
So it didn't mean that I saidto myself, sign me up for an
extra portion of that, but alsothat I didn't want to hold any
bitterness and I had to say theydid survive and they had some
amazing strengths.
Just wasn't quite what I neededat the moment, but that's okay.
Audra (48:08):
So do you think that your work has given you the
ability to heal?
I mean, you've had a tremendousstory and you've gotten more
than your fair share of trauma.
You probably got a couple ofhelpings of trauma.
(48:30):
But because of the work thatyou've done and the advocacy
that you've done and the livesthat you've been able to affect
and help heal, starting withyour children, do you think that
your work has been able tofinally heal the initial wound
(48:52):
that you were given, thatinitial we'll call it the mother
wound, I mean, for lack ofanother name Right?
Has it been able to help healthat initial wound?
Lizbeth (49:04):
It has definitely been able to help heal that initial
wound.
All of my work really has, butit's important to, like what you
said, help heal.
I do believe that healing isthat long-term journey.
There are times where I feellike, wow, life couldn't be
(49:25):
better and I think I'm over thisor that or whatever.
But honestly, trauma doesn'twork like that, and so that's I
think, why I tell people I liketo help increase resilience by
taming trauma through the use ofstory, but I would never say to
someone I'm going to help youget over it or I'm going to help
(49:48):
you arrive to a certaindestination, because I certainly
haven't found it and it just isan ongoing battle.
Audra (49:54):
Yeah, I'm always just such an admirer of people that,
like yourself, that have beengiven their fair share of
helpings, of hardship, and stillchoose to get up and choose joy
and positivity and strength,and choose to serve others.
Where it would be just as easyto sit in bed and put the covers
(50:18):
over their heads and sleep theday away, is so much harder to
say.
Who can I serve today?
And I think that it's throughthat that you are constantly
healing, layer after layer,because trauma is not a one and
done healing.
(50:39):
It is a constant thing becauseyou never know what you're going
to feel.
When you're like, okay, thatfeels better, oh, what in the
world?
Where did that come fromExactly?
You're like I didn't know thatwas there.
And so it's a constant process,and I have found for myself
(51:04):
personally and from the researchthat I've done, is that the
constant work for myself and forothers, is where the work is
done, and you've made a life toit, your career through it, and
now you do it, for I dare sayit's not a hobby, but this is
(51:27):
your passion.
Your passion is helping othersthrough their trauma experiences
and through advocacy, and tolisten to those when others
won't and to listen to thosewhen others won't, and that is
(51:47):
an amazing and a remarkable giftthat you give away just because
you need to show up for thosethat have lost hope.
And there's one thing we cannotlose is that we cannot lose
hope.
Lizbeth (52:03):
We cannot lose hope, and thank you, audra.
That cannot lose hope.
We cannot lose hope, and thankyou, audra.
That is so true.
We cannot lose hope and I neverwant anyone to feel like they
can't be their own best advocate, and I think one of the most,
as women, one of the mostimportant things that we can
learn is you know, we cannothire some sort of an agent that
will machete through hard timesfor us.
(52:26):
It's us.
We can read, we can go totherapy, we can do many sorts of
forms of healing, but my hopeis to help in writing and
storytelling and all of that forpeople to understand.
Each of us can be our own bestadvocate.
It may look very differentlyfor another person than it did
(52:46):
for me, but there's no doubtthat the answers and the
connections, all of that willcome from that person if he or
she is willing to be their ownbest advocate.
And I feel like I wouldn't gothrough again what I went
through back in my youth.
(53:06):
But I will say this one thingIf we take some sort of
inventory of the skills we learn, they can be really powerful
things in our professional life.
And it was just something I wasinventorying the other day Like
I really did look for mentorsearly on and I still did that in
the professional workplace fordevelopment and that really
(53:28):
served me.
And the same with havinglearning that I didn't have the
social skills so well.
But to learn the social skillsto be in support and give
support, that's networking,right, I mean that's networking
and learning.
The written communication pieceof dealing in crises it's a part
of my second book.
I don't know that I did a greatjob telling it, but I meant to.
(53:50):
But like how to hold governmentsystems and non-government
systems accountable Veryimportant.
You do that in writing.
You really don't do that byphone or saying nasty things
online.
You know putting up a nastyYelp review is not going to help
you necessarily.
It really won't.
(54:11):
So you know we all have it inus to learn how to get through
really difficult times.
But I feel like we can retainsome of those skills and that's
a good thing.
Audra (54:22):
But I feel like we can retain some of those skills, and
that's a good thing.
And you've done it in such anefficient and remarkable way.
I mean, you've done it andyou've made it an art form,
thank you.
And I'm so glad that our mutualfriend, heidi, introduced us
and allowed me to tell yourstory.
(54:43):
I think it's, and we justbarely scratched the surface.
I want to make sure that,before I let you go, I want to
do two things.
One I want to make sure thateverybody knows where they can
get access to you and all yourinformation, your books, your
site and your movie.
(55:03):
So where can we find all ofthat information, which I will
also include in the show notesas well?
So where can we find all thatinformation?
Lizbeth (55:12):
Well, like you said before, my website,
lamaridethcom that's my first,initial and middle, initial and
last name, lamaridethcom.
We'll get you to a lot of thosethings.
I'm a little behind in updatingsome of my website, but you'll
see events, you'll see writingand my videos will be even more
(55:37):
clear in my podcast, persistenceU with Lizbeth.
The more recent episodes I'dsay the last 40 episodes are
likely on YouTube now that wehave a Zoom feature to it and I
really want you on my podcast,audra and anyway.
So you'll find it there atlamaridethcom.
(55:57):
The book is called Pieces of MeRescuing my Kidnapped Daughters
and the movie is called Stolenby their Father, and if a person
wanted to, they could justGoogle.
Where do I stream Stolen bytheir Father?
Because sometimes that changes,but for now I know that it's on
Amazon Prime at a very lowprice point to rent.
(56:18):
It's free on Lifetime.
It's because it eventuallylanded with Lifetime, started
with Cineflix, went to Lifetime,it's on Vudu and Hulu and some
other places, so that's wherethey can find that and thank you
for asking.
I have loved being here today,so excited.
Audra (56:38):
So happy that you are here, and this is the part of
the show that is one of myfavorite things to do, which is
when I get to step back from themic and give you an opportunity
to have a intimate momentdirectly with the audience,
where you get to speak directlyto them, give them a final
(56:58):
thought, just something thatthey can take with them and
contemplate with them for therest of the day.
Give them something to thinkabout.
So the mic is yours.
Lizbeth (57:09):
Oh, thank you.
Well, I like to think ofsetbacks, and we all have them.
Not all of us have huge trauma,but all of us at some point
have setbacks.
A lot of us have huge dramas.
We can allow it to not defineus, but it can refine us, and so
(57:31):
when you think of yourself as adiamond in the rough, sometimes
the process doesn't make ourlife uglier.
In the end, it really can besomething worth savoring and
something worth either writingabout or sharing with someone.
It is we connect mostly I dobelieve one of my first podcast
(57:53):
guests told me this but weconnect through our stories and
we often connect through ourbrokenness, and so if people
look online and all they'reseeing are all these successful,
happy, happy, rich, seemingpeople on vacation, that can
lead any one of us to feelingvery sad and lonely, but
connecting authentically is abeautiful, beautiful thing, and
(58:17):
we're all kind of in thisstruggle together, whether we're
willing to acknowledge it ornot, kind of in this struggle
together, whether we're willingto acknowledge it or not.
Audra (58:24):
Thank you for saying that, because social media has a
way of painting a prettypicture which none of that is
true.
Lizbeth (58:31):
It's so true, and I fall prey to it often as well.
Audra (58:41):
You know, if it's the wrong weekend and I'm alone, I'm
just like, why not me?
It's all pretend.
Everything on that social mediais pretend, so don't feel bad,
because they're they're postingall the best pictures of them
that have been airbrushed.
So it's not true, right?
If you want real stuff, if youwant real stuff, hang out with
lizbeth and I, because we'lltell you the it's not always fun
(59:03):
, but it can be funny.
It can be very funny.
Lizbeth, once again, thank youso much for being here, thank
you for your vulnerability,thank you for being willing to
share your story and youradvocacy and just spending your
day with me.
I appreciate it very much.
Lizbeth (59:20):
I thank you, audra.
This, seriously, is thehighlight of my day and probably
the entire week.
I loved hanging out with you.
Audra (59:28):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate once again youbeing here and I want to thank
all of you for listening andwe'll see you again next time.
Welcome in everyone and thank you so much for joining me
again this week.
This week, you are in for atreat.
The woman that is joining methis week is such a remarkable
woman.
I cannot wait for you to meether.
Lisbeth Meredith is an author,a professional speaker and a
podcaster, whose first book,pieces of Me Rescuing my
(00:21):
Kidnapped Daughters, became a TVmovie under the name of Stolen
by their Father.
She works to increaseresilience by taming trauma and
crisis through storytelling.
After three decades of servingcrime survivors and offenders in
Alaska, lisbeth now enjoysworking from home in East
Tennessee and FaceTiming withher adult daughters and
grandpets.
I want to make sure that youhave access to connect with her
(00:44):
at lamerktithcom and don'tforget to listen to her at
Persistence U Podcast withLisbeth.
It is my pleasure and honor tointroduce to you Lisbeth Lisbeth
.
Thank you so much for beinghere and welcome to the show.
Lizbeth (01:00):
Audra.
I'm so excited and grateful toour mutual friend Heidi Love for
making that connection.
This is the highlight of myweek, no doubt.
Audra (01:10):
I am so excited for you to be here because you have a
remarkable life, an incrediblestory, and you are just a joy
and delight to talk to, to getto know, and nobody would guess
that you've had such anincredible story and life.
No one would guess the traumain your background and what has
(01:33):
led you to live such anincredible life of advocacy.
So before we get into yourincredible life of advocacy,
tell us a little bit about you.
Lizbeth (01:46):
Oh, thank you, and thank you for those kind words.
So, like you said, I live inEast Tennessee.
My roots began in, surprisingly, in Kentucky and very abruptly
I was spirited off to Alaskawhen I was a little toddler and
didn't really understand why,and I grew up feeling very other
(02:07):
than the people in my family.
You know they were a lot ofblonde-headed kids and there was
me with nearly black hair and Ijust felt like I didn't belong
and I couldn't figure out why.
As soon as I understood why thatI had been taken from my father
and then raised with siblingswho weren't full siblings but
they're definitely my sisters Iknew I was in a land that I
(02:29):
probably didn't belong in and Ijust sort of vowed as a
youngster to make differentchoices.
I thought, man, I'll neverdivorce when I get older, my
kids will never have to look fortheir real father and there
won't be lawyers in their livesor domestic violence like I grew
up with a lot of family strifeand tensions and, frankly,
(02:51):
violence, only to find myself ina shelter with my two young
daughters when I was in mymid-20s.
So I didn't do a lot of thework.
That would have been superhelpful.
Didn't know how to start, butas a young person I just felt
like man adulting seems reallyhard.
(03:11):
Oh great, there's someone wholooks like he's going to rescue
me from it.
And little did I know that thatwould be a decision that paid
dividends for not just me, butfor people in my community for a
long long time Now.
Audra (03:33):
Adulting is not for the faint of heart.
I say it a lot, I actually sayit a lot to my kids that
adulting has very little upside,that some of the upsides only
include you don't have to livewith your mother.
But other than that, there'svery, very little upside to
adulting.
But other than that, there'svery, very little upside to
adulting.
But especially if you are anadult that has grown up with
trauma in your background, youdon't know that you are
(03:57):
repeating habits that you grewup with, because you really
don't know the difference.
Don't know the differencebecause the habits that you grow
up with and the things that youdo feel normal.
The treatment that you receivefeels normal because that's the
environment that you were in.
So you find yourself drawn tocertain types of people because
(04:21):
that's a normal environment,that's the normal treatment.
So you don't know what healthyis versus abusive, and you
probably found yourself in asituation where, oh, here's a
guy.
I think he loves me, I thinkthat this is what love feels
(04:44):
like and he's going to rescue me.
Am I on a similar track?
Lizbeth (04:49):
Amen.
It's like a magnetic forcecomes in and the next thing, you
know like?
I remember telling someone Iknew he was the one because he
felt like home and fortunately,had I really thought through
that, I might have said yikes,I'd never run in another
direction.
But I just didn't know betterat that time and so I went ahead
(05:14):
and let that magnet pull meright in, and it didn't take
long for things to go very, verysideways and for me to realize
love is not just this initialimpression or attraction or,
frankly, an emotion.
It's something much strongerthan that and we did not have
that amongst us.
Audra (05:36):
So you got married very young.
How old were you when you andyour former spouse got married?
Lizbeth (05:44):
How old were you when you and your former spouse got
married?
I was 21.
So I was.
I think I was younger in someways because I had was fairly
innocent and didn't have a lotof experience with men, but I
was.
I met him when I was 20 ormaybe just turned 21.
And I tell people I am theoriginal 90 day fiance.
Like, I met him and the nextthing you know, I have a ring on
(06:07):
my finger.
By November we met in, I'mthinking, august, and he, like
90 Day Fiance.
He was an American citizen buthe was from another country and
grew up in that other countryand had only been in the States
for not all that long.
But I just felt so smartbecause I thought, look, I
checked and I already found outhe's a citizen, so he's not
(06:30):
using me for any untowardpurposes.
Look at me and you know Ireally knew so little about him.
I think, more importantly,audra, I knew so little about
myself and I think that'ssomething that I see.
I live in the South now.
I see a lot of people Mary,very young here still and it
(06:50):
breaks my heart because ifsomething is to last forever,
what's the rush?
And also, what do we know ofourselves when we're barely an
adult, our brains haven't evenfully developed.
We're years away from thathappening and that's such a big
and beautiful decision.
Audra (07:10):
Why rush?
I mean, let's face it, I'm 53.
I am still figuring myself out,me too.
I mean, when you're in your 20s, I mean, in the grand scheme of
things, as far as your brain isconcerned, you are just barely
barely having it fully formed.
Lizbeth (07:47):
I mean, it barely is fully formed at 25, but you
don't hardly have any experience, any life experience to compare
this big beautiful life to, andyou compared it to what you
felt was normal at 21.
Yikes, and it was somethingthat just kept paying dividends
even after I left, you know.
For it took four years for meto decide to leave him, and it
was awful from the first week.
I mean awful, and while itwasn't physically abusive from
(08:09):
the first week it didn't need tobe he just would disappear for
days at a time.
There was suddenly nothing thathe liked about me, and when he
was around which wasn't toooften he let me know every
little detail and he also didn'tseem to like my family and in
some ways, maybe compared to his.
(08:31):
That was a fair assessment.
Okay, but he didn't want me tohang out with certain friends.
You know, it was just like hedidn't like me, but he didn't
want anyone else to have thechance to.
And I think what I didn'trealize then was if the only
person in your life says reallynegative things about you, if
(08:51):
you're in community, if you haveyour friends and your family,
maybe your job or your hobbies,you think to yourself what's
wrong with this person sayingthis to me?
What in the world?
How were they raised?
But if you're isolated, itmakes sense because there's no
one to counterbalance thosemessages and say you're not
(09:12):
perfect, but you've got mightyfine positive attributes and you
can work on some of the others,you know.
So it took little by little bylittle.
I didn't notice it until I wasvery isolated and he was sort of
the last man standing in mylife and I got laid off from my
(09:33):
job and was having our baby andI became very dependent.
Audra (09:40):
And you very quickly had two children, one right after
the other.
Lizbeth (09:58):
So now you're isolated with two little babies.
It Then add to that I had apartner who was escalating in
bad behaviors, and so he startedcutting off my own financial
ability to get a hold of moneyin my account.
And I remember a time when myoldest daughter was an infant
(10:21):
and I was pregnant with myyoungest and he had me on about
a $25 a week grocery plan.
I wouldn't buy diapers inAlaska for that price even back
then, and so I was really leftto figure out who is the more
important choice.
Is it the upcoming baby or isit the baby that I'm holding?
(10:42):
You know, who do I choose?
And it was awful.
I did belong to a new mother'sgroup.
There was a group that hedidn't object to, and it was at
a church that I didn'tparticularly go to, but I could
go to that without bothering himwhatsoever.
And someone I befriended at thenew mother's group came by and
(11:05):
saw me at one point when I wasvery, very pregnant with my
second daughter, and saw I thinkshe went to go open the
refrigerator, put something inand saw we didn't have anything,
and she didn't say anything tome, but I got a donation.
At about Christmas time Astranger showed up and delivered
a ton of food and pregnancyclothes was so beautiful and
(11:28):
we're still friends today.
This person and I and you knowwe need each other in the worst
(11:49):
of times and I think what peopleforget is folks who are under
coercive control, whether it'sintimate partner violence or
even a cult or whatever.
You're isolated so you don'teven have your stronghold, the
people and things that helpsupport you to help you out of
it.
Audra (12:10):
You're in a very, very extreme situation, so the fact
that you got the strength toleave is extraordinary.
So you did this for four years.
Lizbeth (12:24):
Yes, yes, how long Dev.
For four years.
Yes, yes, how long Devastatingyears.
You were only 25.
Audra (12:32):
Right when I left.
You were 25 when you left withtwo tiny little babies.
Lizbeth (12:40):
Two adorable little girls.
I had been, you know, triggerwarning but I had been injured
in front of my oldest daughterand it was bad.
You know, it was really bad.
I didn't feel then that I wasworthy of a better future.
(13:08):
I really didn't think that way.
I didn't say to myself I don'tdeserve to be treated like this.
But when that happened in frontof my daughter I knew she
deserved a better future and thechances of things turning out
well for her if she grew up in ahome like this were about zero.
So that helped a lot.
That really helped me figureout I need to make a big change
(13:31):
and I did.
This was pre-violence againstwomen act.
This was pre-police have tomake an arrest sort of an act.
So I knew back then that whenyou called the police they used
to do what sometimes I thinkthey still do it but pick up the
angry person in the houseUsually, you know, it was often
(13:53):
the husband not always Drive himaround the block, drop him off,
and they would be on their way.
Cool down, sir.
You just need to cool down andthat's it.
And I couldn't afford for thatto happen.
So I called someone else that Iknew, a lawyer and she sent a
(14:16):
taxi for me, and that was thebeginning of a new beginning.
Audra (14:18):
So this new beginning was not easy.
You found yourself in a shelterwith these two little girls.
Um, at what point, what did youfind?
That your former spouse decidedto take matters into his own
(14:42):
hands and decide to hurt you bytaking his daughters away from
you.
Lizbeth (14:50):
Right, Well, and I should say first that the last
thing in the world I think mostpeople want to hear is that they
should go to a shelter or thatthey should go to domestic
violence treatment.
You know a place that hasservices for survivors of
domestic violence, so I didn'twant to do any of that.
First, I just went to afriend's place and my husband
(15:11):
tracked me there right away andso eventually I went to the
shelter and truthfully, it wasvery stressful, but there was a
lot of advantages and I tried toremind people that there are
things that one can learn andaccess if they do the thing they
don't want to do sometimes thatthey'll never be able to do on
(15:32):
their own very easily.
So I did go to that shelter andthat was the beginning of many
good micro decisions.
I focused very hard on beingwhat I like to call a good
victim, because people arereally annoyed with victims of
domestic abuse.
Often and I know that it can befrustrating it's not just that
(15:53):
they're being rude.
Sometimes it's very frustratingto hear the same story and not
see change year after year.
But I decided no, no, no, Iwould not be that.
I will not go back to him, Iwill not complain loudly, I will
get a degree.
I eventually decided I will getmy degree, I will work.
I won't ask for too much.
I'll keep moving forward.
(16:13):
Take the girls to counseling,play therapy, play by the rules.
I really tried to color withinthe lines and make sure that I
set us up for success.
What I realized later was I musthave had an imaginary thought,
some sort of fantasy that I hadcontrol over his behavior.
You know, I felt like to enddomestic violence and I think a
(16:35):
lot of people believe this today.
To end domestic violence,victims need to make better
choices.
Some people will say victimsneed to have better self-esteem.
You know, like just get goodself-esteem and this wouldn't
happen in the first place.
Well, that's not true.
But I thought that I had put itinto things and so I went
through that horrific divorce.
(16:56):
It took almost two years.
I had to rely on legal aid.
He kept stalking me.
It was not easy.
There were days where and oneday in particular I get a knock
at the door it's ChildProtective Services coming
because there's been anallegation of abused my kids.
So the girls are searched.
That day public assistancecomes by our home to check to
(17:19):
see if I actually had a manliving with me, because there
had been an anonymous report manliving with me, because there
had been an anonymous report.
I wonder who made that reportthat there was a man living with
me.
I have apropos of nothing.
Size nine and a half feet.
They're kind of big for a woman.
I'm not a short woman.
So when they saw blue skis inmy closet cross-country skis,
(17:42):
someone had gifted me.
They're like well, that provesthat there is a man living with
you.
I'm like no, these are my feet,watch me slide my feet in.
None of this was funny at thetime, but this was the life I
led While I was trying to go toschool.
My children were suffering theirown losses.
Sometimes he would show up forvisits.
A lot of times he wouldn't.
(18:03):
But it's always incumbent uponthe parent to get their child
ready and have them waiting atthe door, and if they choose to
do something then they could befined a couple hundred dollars a
day for missed visits.
So my kids didn't see himregularly, but when they did and
they got old enough to speak,the things they would come home
(18:24):
with were terrifying.
Daddy says you're going to die,you're going to hell.
Daddy says you won't love usanymore.
Daddy says you'll find someonenew.
Daddy says I think at one pointone of my daughters said he's
going to kill you.
So scary messages for littlekids to have to bring back to
(18:45):
their mother.
But four and a half years laterfour years later, not four and a
half, four exact years later Imade it.
Within two years I'd finishedup that college degree.
So I did it.
I got a wonderful job as anadvocate in a domestic violence
agency the same one I'd fled to.
So I had to do trainings forlaw enforcement and judges and
(19:08):
talk about my real experiencesand help women who weren't in
the shelter to learn to be theirown best advocate.
So it was an amazing job for$10 an hour and you know I loved
it.
I lived with a roommate who wasjust like a grandmother to my
children, but better than theones that they were that they
(19:29):
inherited.
So I just felt like, in someways, I was living the dream, if
I could just deal with theanxiety of all the stalking.
And then, sure enough, fouryears after I left him, he took
our daughters and fled thecountry on a visit and I didn't
see them for more than two years.
By the time I did, they nolonger spoke the language that I
(19:53):
did.
So they've gone throughcountless difficult
circumstances.
I am not saying this to blamemyself, but I want to be very
clear.
This was not so that he couldbe with the kids.
It was to punish me because Istepped out and left, and it was
quite a punishment, it was.
Audra (20:16):
So this, this experience , and you were trying.
You were trying to be you usedan interesting word, trying to
be a good victim, which I thinkis interesting.
The way that you described thatas being a good victim, that
(20:37):
you described that as being agood victim being, I guess,
better than what all the othershad been before.
It's ridiculous really, which,when you say it out loud, just
sounds the bizarre.
But I understand why you wereexplaining it that way because
everybody, there's not a wholelot of sympathy for the victim,
which I don't understand why.
Because they're like why don'tyou leave?
(20:58):
Why don't you leave?
Because there's not a whole lotof sympathy for the victim,
which I don't understand why, um, because they're like why don't
you leave?
Why don't you leave this?
Because it's not easy, becausebecause the system,
unfortunately, is still not setup to protect the victim.
So you're in this situation,going I'm gonna do this
differently, I'm gonna outsmartthis system, I'm going to fix
this.
And you did everything right.
And he outsmarted the system.
(21:20):
He outsmarted it and this iswhat triggered your.
It souped up your advocacy.
You thought, okay, I dideverything right and it still
had a backlash on me.
Now I'm going to kick this up anotch.
Now I'm pissed.
Now, this isn't just I'm angry.
(21:44):
Now I'm pissed because now youhave taken my children to
another country and now you haveto fight to get your children
back from another country, whichis not going to be easy.
How did you survive two yearswithout your children?
(22:04):
I'm assuming you didn't haveany contact with them whatsoever
.
Lizbeth (22:09):
Not one phone call, not one picture, not one letter,
nothing.
I think there were a few thingsthat helped me survive One.
You know I've been treated very, very badly in that marriage
but when I got out and went tothe shelter and in some ways not
(22:30):
having a supportive family atthe time, I now know many more
of my family members and I canhonestly tell you that a number
of them would have stepped uphad they known, but I didn't
know them then.
I shouldn't know them.
So having no family in mycorner and no resources in some
ways was a huge strength andbeing and optimistic because I
(22:54):
had to land on my feet, I had tolearn to not only get a support
system but nurture it along andnot burn them out, and that
meant that I needed to rely onthings like support groups and
other places.
You know I was a domestic abuseadvocate by the time my kids
were kidnapped, but I also founda lot of comfort in things like
(23:19):
a parenting support group thatI got to be a part of for
parents whose kids werekidnapped and taken out of
country.
Whenever I went to a resourcelike, let's say, the police as
an example and that didn'talways go well, really did not
at all.
But when I went to one resourceI would say, what else do you
suggest?
And I would follow thesuggestion I really did.
(23:42):
And then I would ask that nextplace well, what else would you
suggest?
Is there anything I definitelyshouldn't be doing that I might
want to do?
Important questions.
I really tried to navigate abunch of systems I didn't
understand and that didn'tunderstand each other.
(24:03):
So, as an example, the StateDepartment.
You know, with your kids takenout of country, you get a hold
of the State Department, youfile all these documents, blah,
blah, blah.
They then finished thepreliminary paperwork.
The person assigned to my casesaid well, be sure and just
cooperate with the police, dowhatever they say.
I did and the police eventually, after a lot of prodding and me
(24:25):
going to the newspaper, issueda warrant for my ex-husband.
And then the State Departmentturned around and said this is
the dumbest, you know, mostridiculous thing you could have
done.
This is so horrific.
Why would you do this Now?
You'll never get your childrenback and it's that kind of thing
.
Nobody was trying to be harmful, but it's hard, it's very
(24:47):
difficult.
If my children had been takento Kentucky it would have been
difficult, but much less anothercountry.
You're talking about all ofthese government systems who
don't speak with one another.
So it really relied on me.
Thank goodness I picked the jobthat I did.
I had wonderful role models.
My executive director was superhelpful and very well
(25:09):
politically connected, but Ialso used her as a role model,
like how do you keep it togetherduring really hard times?
And you know, I did learn tofind people who had bits and
bobs of the things that I wantedto be when I grew up, and so
not everyone had all of it Noneof us do.
(25:29):
But trying to find people thatI wanted to, women that I wanted
to kind of be an understudy toor hang out with or have as my
role model, I listened whenfriends told me certain things
there's I say this all the timeit just meant the world to me.
A friend of mine once told meearly on when I had left my
(25:51):
husband, my kids I don't thinkwe're even missing them.
You're going to need toschedule your worry.
You're really going to have todo that.
You're going to have to notbring it to work, not talk about
it all the time to everyonethat you come into contact with
and it's real tempting.
But give yourself an hour a dayto simply grieve, be angry,
(26:15):
feel sorry for yourself, crywhatever you need to do.
Don't suppress your feelings.
Honor them in that hour.
After that, you got 23 more ina day to do what you do, to keep
moving forward.
That really did help and not,you know, had I had acute mental
health issues then, which laterI had some really strong ones,
(26:36):
but I, you know I would have hadto get medication or do
whatever.
First, I did march my fannyinto counseling and because I
couldn't afford much, I gotwhatever the state had for me,
basically on a wait list.
It was still great.
It was great.
I made sure that I reached outfor support and that I wasn't
saying to myself any longerbecause this is a lot of what
(26:57):
got me in trouble in the firstplace.
I got this.
I can do this myself.
No, none of us really can.
When it matters, when somethingmatters greatly, we really need
help.
Audra (27:09):
I mean two long years.
Thank goodness you hadcollected a support system,
listened to the advice and heldon for dear life is basically
what you did.
You held on to your senses andyour wits for two years to be
able to bring your girls home.
(27:30):
But what I think I am soimpressed with is that you could
have taken all of thatknowledge that you gathered
while trying to bring your girlshome and you could have just
kept it at that.
You could have just said, okay,I accomplished this, I brought
(27:54):
my girls home, they're home safe, I'm done, I'm going to be home
, I'm going to recover with them, I'm going to make sure that
they're recovered and I don'twant to ever do this again.
You did not.
You took all of thisinformation, all of this
research, all of the connectionsthat you took, that you made,
(28:16):
all of the information that yougathered everything and, like I
said in the beginning, you tookyour pain, you took your
experience and you took yourknowledge and you turned it up
to a 10.
It up to a 10 and you've becomethis amazing advocate for
(28:38):
others that have been insituations just like you.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat your experience has been
like as an advocate for othersthat have been in your situation
, both here, domestically, andabroad.
Lizbeth (28:52):
Thank you, thank you so much for saying that and please
know and maybe we'll doubleback to this but I made huge
mistakes along the way parentingtraumatized children, and there
were things that I just didn'tknow and made things worse at
times.
So I want to be real clear thatthis wasn't just a super smooth
process.
But I was so fortunate toreturn after three and a half
(29:17):
months was the second trip Itook and I was able to come back
to my job, where I now made $12an hour and I often say, well,
it was a $100,000 problem on avery slim budget.
But I will tell you, thecommunity was so excited when I
got home I did get to return tothat job.
(29:38):
I was in rough shape and itwould have been ideal had I been
had more leave to focus on mymental health and the kids, but
I didn't.
I had to go back the very nextworkday.
Basically, I mean, I had reallyburned through not just my
leave, but employees had donatedleave.
I had burned through all of itand what a fortunate person I
(30:02):
was to have that to begin with.
Helping teach people to advocatefor themselves that job was the
perfect job for it and my lifein some ways had been the
perfect case study, because I dobelieve if somebody would have
rolled right in at my time ofneed and said, hey, I got this,
(30:24):
don't worry about it, I canwrite big checks and I'll take
care of all the details.
You just show up when we needyou.
I would have said, yes, please.
And I still hear a lot frompeople who are kind of looking
for that from me today and Ican't do that.
I can't go help people gettheir children or spend
individual time troubleshootinghow to get them back.
(30:45):
But what I can do is teachpeople to be the best that I
know, to be their own bestadvocate.
And it really does have so muchto do with we start with a
mindset and self-care, takinggood care of ourselves and the
idea that early on in whateverwe're going through that hurts
(31:07):
so much, we could help someoneelse later If in between, when
it happens to us and when we getto them, we take stock of what
we're learning, what worked andwhat didn't.
And I feel like to some extent,I had an unfair advantage
because I was so emotionallydamaged by the time that my kids
(31:28):
were kidnapped that there was acertain part of removal.
So I had really thought aboutlife as a story.
You know there's a beginning, amiddle and an end, and none of
us, when we're born, we didn'twrite our beginning.
You know we get what people say.
We all have equal chances.
I don't agree.
I don't agree whatsoever.
(31:49):
Depending on where you're bornin the world especially, we
don't get to choose a whole lotof things, but we are handed
something.
Born in the world especially,we don't get to choose a whole
lot of things, but we are handedsomething.
And in the middle we'refortunate if we can start
shaping or influencing some ofit to where we can feel proud of
the ending, no matter whathappens, because a lot of things
will happen out of our control.
(32:09):
But if we can just have moreopportunity to influence it,
that will be useful.
And so for me, I would thinkthis is a story.
It's going to have a big.
It's had a beginning.
I'm in the middle, ooh, and I'menvisioning a different ending,
and you know that helped me alot.
It did.
(32:29):
There were certain theme songsthat I would have running around
in my mind when I was feelingso much despair and so much
hopelessness, and I would thinkI know, when my kids get off the
plane I'll be thinking aboutthis song, you know, and I would
just allow myself to envisionthat beautiful thing.
(32:50):
So then, when I was arrestedwrongfully in Greece, when my
attorneys quit and I don't blamethem because I didn't pay them
fully, my Greek attorneys whenso many setbacks happened, when
I had a police officer who waslooking to date me rather than
helping me, I could get throughsome of that just thinking it'll
(33:11):
make great story later, whichit did, turns out.
Turns out people love.
Tragedy Makes a great book.
Woohoo, thank you.
But you know, it really helpedto have that vision.
But I think for all of us, if wecan remember, no matter what
we're going through, someoneelse has already walked through
(33:32):
it something similar, and whatskills am I learning in the
midst of it?
I could tell you in greatdetail back then who didn't show
up that I thought would have tohelp in my life, because that's
the normal thing is, our brainsare kind of wired to be a
little bit negative.
But I started thinking oh, waita minute, look at all the
(33:53):
unexpected people, people inGreece I'd never met helped
People.
You know, one person in Turkeytried to help in the country of
Turkey.
Countless Alaskans responded tothis newspaper stories that
were coming out about my kids.
More often than not, it wasfabulous and delightful and
(34:17):
really heartfelt.
And there are always going tobe those people who are a little
trollish.
That's okay, you know.
That's okay, you know feel badfor them, but we don't have to
hold on to it.
So, in the middle of all of abad time, as far as teaching
people to be their own bestadvocate, I would say starting
out with knowing where we wantto go, really being intentional
(34:39):
about when we emote so that wedon't burn out our support
systems.
We really do need supportgroups for certain things, like
if you're going through, let'ssay, a divorce or a spouse that
died, for a while your friendswill be there and they'll be
happy to do so.
There comes a time when theymight not be, and so
diversifying and making surethat we have a place to put that
(35:01):
doesn't mean that they don'tcare, but we don't want to just
take over.
They got their own tragedies,their own life and their own
hardships.
So doing, you know, definitelymodulating a support system and
then remembering to contribute,not just to take, in the midst
of that.
For me that was some of the mostimportant lessons learned in
(35:23):
advocacy and I really failed attimes.
People would say you know agood friend, say to me you know,
sometimes you just suck the airright out of the room and it
was terrible.
Sometimes you just suck the airright out of the room and it
was terrible.
It wasn't an ideal message, butI needed to hear it Because you
know, if you're not told thosethings, you can see your
friendships becoming scarce andyou not knowing why, because
(35:45):
they were too tactful to tellyou that you're all about
yourself anymore in this crisis.
Audra (35:52):
You'd mentioned some other mistakes that you had made
.
Is there other things that youhad made that you're like oh, I
really blew it on that one, andmaybe they are mistakes that we
all make.
It may not have been in thesesame situations that we could
learn from it too.
Lizbeth (36:10):
Right, and thank you for bringing that up.
I mean there were so many tochoose from.
But I am thinking especiallywhen my kids came back from
Greece, my attitude was well, Ishould say that we had
fundraisers.
People donated.
They were so kind I got to keepmy job.
(36:32):
Donated.
They were so kind I got to keepmy job.
I wasn't unemployed.
I mean that in itself wasmiraculous.
So I felt very guilty, I feltvery much indebted and basically
, without meaning to, gave mykids the impression that, okay,
you're back now.
Here's where we'll go tocounseling.
You know for sure, you havecounseling.
(36:52):
Here's some sports, a goodschool, all of the things.
Don't complain about it.
You've got all these people tobe thankful to.
You know, I impressed upon themwithout saying it expressly you
should invent the cure to AIDS,because so many people have
(37:12):
shown up for you that you don'teven know.
So be sure and be grateful.
That message was very stifling.
It was a lot of pressure onlittle kids, a lot of pressure
on little kids that I didn'teven know what all they'd been
through and I'm still learning.
They're in their 30s and I'mstill learning.
So raising them as I'd beenraised in the bootstraps
(37:36):
generation did zero percent good, as near as I can tell.
It could be traumatizing,difficult and guess what?
I was in no space to be verynurturing when they came back
for a while because I literallyhad some psychotic symptoms of
my own post-traumatic stressdisorder and so I was a hot mess
(37:59):
just trying to keep it together.
And I did choose to work in thefield, and I like to say to
people I actually did work forthree decades in the field.
That often failed me thejustice system.
But what was so helpful aboutthat was I had continuing
education.
So I got my master's degree andI did some other things, but I
(38:22):
kept getting continuingeducation.
So I got my master's degree andI did, you know, some other
things, but I kept gettingcontinuing education at work.
And not only that, I helpedserve people whose lives made
mine look like child's play.
I mean, there were people upuntil the day I retired, that it
looked like I had just beenliving the dream my entire life.
Theirs was so difficult beenliving the dream my entire life
(38:46):
Theirs was so difficult.
And when I became atrauma-informed care trainer and
that was like the last 10 yearsof my probation work as a
probation supervisor, that was agame changer and I'll never
forget.
I was trying to finish my bookthe first book, my memoir and my
oldest daughter had had a hugemental health break and she was
like a little kid again.
(39:07):
She didn't just have a mentalhealth break, it was like it
brought her back to the age inwhich she was taken, and so I
had thought that we were on apath where things were just
about to get better because shewas like 19 when this happened
about to get better because shewas like 19 when this happened
and instead it was quite theopposite.
So she called me at work, asI'm at a training for
(39:28):
trauma-informed care trainers,and suddenly I knew something.
It was like for me that was myown snap.
That was a break where Iunderstood oh my gosh, I have
been doing this wrong and Iliterally have got to humble
myself and learn the best that Ican.
What can I do to help the kidsheal and developmentally reach
(39:52):
their milestones?
And Tough Love was not doing it.
They're amazing young womentoday.
But that was a huge, huge momentfor me, and I began my book
with that day, although I had totake some of it out because I
was accidentally sharing mydaughter's story and it wasn't
mine to share, but, um, it wasvery, very, very helpful to
(40:16):
learn that, instead of sayingwhat's wrong with you what is
wrong with you which I didn'texpressly say, but that's the
implied impression ofbootstrapping when you meet
someone with dysfunction what'swrong with you Just can you not
get it together and instead,looking at her with empathy and
wondering what happened to youand I am confident that there's
(40:41):
more that I don't know I'm goingto give you that benefit of the
doubt and make sure you havethe resources you need and I'll
see you strength-based, asopposed to your foibles, the
things that hurt.
Audra (40:57):
How has that changed?
Or how did that change when youwere advocating for children of
trauma, instead of seeing thesekids and putting them in
therapy and going, oh, they'rekids, they're resilient, they'll
be fine, they'll bounce back,they'll be better, and then
(41:19):
seeing that, well, no, thattrauma stays with you.
I've heard that trauma, whileit is emotional trauma, actually
sits in the body, physicallysomewhere.
So how did that change the wayyou approached it once you saw
the way your daughter had beenaffected and how it made her
(41:42):
revert back as a childemotionally?
Lizbeth (41:46):
That was so tough.
That was just so tough.
And even before I was atrauma-informed care trainer, I
had left domestic abuse advocacyto become a child abuse
investigator abuse investigator.
So some of the same childrenwhose mothers I had served were
(42:07):
caught up in the childprotective system, where then
years later I would find them inthe juvenile delinquency system
.
So some of the kids I used tojoke like I should be in your
baby album.
Do you want a picture?
We've been together a long time.
But what I didn't realize, evenas a child abuse investigator,
was how much kids even pre-birthchildren, much less infants are
(42:31):
impacted by what's going on inthe home.
They don't have to witness itpersonally, they don't have to
have their eyeballs on parentsand their beat injuries.
Just being in the home withthat tension it's like a hotline
to their little hearts.
So for me that was.
First of all, I was engulfedwith a whole lot of guilt with
(42:52):
my oldest daughter.
We still had some things towork out, but my therapist
turned into more of a parentingcoach for me at that point and
really served her needs buthelped me be the best advocate
for her also and with other kidsin the system.
What I learned to do was to letthem know that you know they
(43:15):
were still accountable for theiractions.
I never want people to thinkthat trauma-informed care is
like green lighting, badbehavior in people or there's no
hope for any of us.
You know we cannot allowcriminal conduct to go on and
say well, it was just you onlyknew what they went through, you
would not think they should behaving consequences.
(43:36):
No, no, no, no.
People need consequences.
That's part of healing.
But letting the juveniles knowthat I served and the same with
adult women later and I've donesome coaching work but letting
people know that I see yourpotential, I see who you are, I
want the best for you.
(43:56):
I'm never going to work harderthan you do for your own
progress, but I will be with youduring this journey and I
understand it's not going to bea perfect straight line to
success.
You know success is up and downand whatever, but in the
journey that's where a lot ofthe gold is.
So it really helped so much.
(44:18):
Before it was, it was verycommon for us to say to
probationers, whether they wereadults or juveniles you know I'm
going to get paid one way orthe other, so you can do what
you like, because it seemed likesometimes it didn't just seem
like sometimes people wereacting out to get that attention
.
So to combat that, well, I'llget paid one way or the other.
You do what you need, butyou're going to have
(44:39):
consequences.
And a juvenile once told me Ineed to hear from you that you
care that I succeed.
That's all I want to hear, thatyou care that I succeed.
I know my success isn't yourproblem, that's me but I want to
know that this relationshipmatters and that you care that I
(45:00):
do succeed.
And I said that from every youknow pretty much every
interaction on after that.
Audra (45:07):
Wow, a child that had that sense of self, enough
self-awareness, regardless ofwhat that poor child had been
going through at that point, hadenough self-awareness to say I
need to know that I matter tosomebody, anybody, and if the
(45:29):
only person that I haveavailable to me is you, well
then I need to know that Imatter to you.
I don't know who that child is,but I applaud that child for
having the strength and theenough sense of self.
It might have been desperationand saying that to you and
saying, please make me matter toyou, because that changed you
(45:52):
and every child thereafter Idon't know if that child, if
you're still in contact withthat child, bravo, bravo, and I
am so proud of whomever that is.
You changed by standing up toyou.
That child changed lives, right, probably changed generations.
(46:12):
Doesn't even realize that thatchild did that.
Lizbeth (46:15):
A definite truth teller , a definite truth teller, and
really the job was in many waysvery inspirational Because you
could see people surviving theunimaginable and sometimes going
on to do in a short period oftime because we didn't have them
forever.
Pretty amazing stuff, butalways trying to do a little and
(46:49):
trying to do a little, notalways.
Audra (46:50):
Often, I should say more honestly, often trying to do
better than what was modeled forthem, and that's certainly not
easy.
No, Because they didn't have afoundation to do it.
So they were making it up asthey were going along.
Lizbeth (47:02):
Right, much like yourself, you were making it up
as you went along, because itwasn't modeled for you.
It was not, it was not.
And I will say my parents wereboth high school dropouts and I
feel like they were both hardworkers and I mean, when you
look at what they were goingthrough historically, that's one
advantage of writing a book islike you have to really get into
(47:24):
your parents' heads or whoeveryou're writing about.
But I thought, finally, Istarted thinking about, well,
what were they going through?
Oh wow, you know, they didn'thave much of a shot, either
being born or surviving theGreat Depression, not having
access to education, not havingrole models that helped support
them, because everyone's insurvival mode.
(47:45):
It was hard for them.
So it didn't mean that I saidto myself, sign me up for an
extra portion of that, but alsothat I didn't want to hold any
bitterness and I had to say theydid survive and they had some
amazing strengths.
Just wasn't quite what I neededat the moment, but that's okay.
Audra (48:08):
So do you think that your work has given you the
ability to heal?
I mean, you've had a tremendousstory and you've gotten more
than your fair share of trauma.
You probably got a couple ofhelpings of trauma.
(48:30):
But because of the work thatyou've done and the advocacy
that you've done and the livesthat you've been able to affect
and help heal, starting withyour children, do you think that
your work has been able tofinally heal the initial wound
(48:52):
that you were given, thatinitial we'll call it the mother
wound, I mean, for lack ofanother name Right?
Has it been able to help healthat initial wound?
Lizbeth (49:04):
It has definitely been able to help heal that initial
wound.
All of my work really has, butit's important to, like what you
said, help heal.
I do believe that healing isthat long-term journey.
There are times where I feellike, wow, life couldn't be
(49:25):
better and I think I'm over thisor that or whatever.
But honestly, trauma doesn'twork like that, and so that's I
think, why I tell people I liketo help increase resilience by
taming trauma through the use ofstory, but I would never say to
someone I'm going to help youget over it or I'm going to help
(49:48):
you arrive to a certaindestination, because I certainly
haven't found it and it just isan ongoing battle.
Audra (49:54):
Yeah, I'm always just such an admirer of people that,
like yourself, that have beengiven their fair share of
helpings, of hardship, and stillchoose to get up and choose joy
and positivity and strength,and choose to serve others.
Where it would be just as easyto sit in bed and put the covers
(50:18):
over their heads and sleep theday away, is so much harder to
say.
Who can I serve today?
And I think that it's throughthat that you are constantly
healing, layer after layer,because trauma is not a one and
done healing.
(50:39):
It is a constant thing becauseyou never know what you're going
to feel.
When you're like, okay, thatfeels better, oh, what in the
world?
Where did that come fromExactly?
You're like I didn't know thatwas there.
And so it's a constant process,and I have found for myself
(51:04):
personally and from the researchthat I've done, is that the
constant work for myself and forothers, is where the work is
done, and you've made a life toit, your career through it, and
now you do it, for I dare sayit's not a hobby, but this is
(51:27):
your passion.
Your passion is helping othersthrough their trauma experiences
and through advocacy, and tolisten to those when others
won't and to listen to thosewhen others won't, and that is
(51:47):
an amazing and a remarkable giftthat you give away just because
you need to show up for thosethat have lost hope.
And there's one thing we cannotlose is that we cannot lose
hope.
Lizbeth (52:03):
We cannot lose hope, and thank you, audra.
That cannot lose hope.
We cannot lose hope, and thankyou, audra.
That is so true.
We cannot lose hope and I neverwant anyone to feel like they
can't be their own best advocate, and I think one of the most,
as women, one of the mostimportant things that we can
learn is you know, we cannothire some sort of an agent that
will machete through hard timesfor us.
(52:26):
It's us.
We can read, we can go totherapy, we can do many sorts of
forms of healing, but my hopeis to help in writing and
storytelling and all of that forpeople to understand.
Each of us can be our own bestadvocate.
It may look very differentlyfor another person than it did
(52:46):
for me, but there's no doubtthat the answers and the
connections, all of that willcome from that person if he or
she is willing to be their ownbest advocate.
And I feel like I wouldn't gothrough again what I went
through back in my youth.
(53:06):
But I will say this one thingIf we take some sort of
inventory of the skills we learn, they can be really powerful
things in our professional life.
And it was just something I wasinventorying the other day Like
I really did look for mentorsearly on and I still did that in
the professional workplace fordevelopment and that really
(53:28):
served me.
And the same with havinglearning that I didn't have the
social skills so well.
But to learn the social skillsto be in support and give
support, that's networking,right, I mean that's networking
and learning.
The written communication pieceof dealing in crises it's a part
of my second book.
I don't know that I did a greatjob telling it, but I meant to.
(53:50):
But like how to hold governmentsystems and non-government
systems accountable Veryimportant.
You do that in writing.
You really don't do that byphone or saying nasty things
online.
You know putting up a nastyYelp review is not going to help
you necessarily.
It really won't.
(54:11):
So you know we all have it inus to learn how to get through
really difficult times.
But I feel like we can retainsome of those skills and that's
a good thing.
Audra (54:22):
But I feel like we can retain some of those skills, and
that's a good thing.
And you've done it in such anefficient and remarkable way.
I mean, you've done it andyou've made it an art form,
thank you.
And I'm so glad that our mutualfriend, heidi, introduced us
and allowed me to tell yourstory.
(54:43):
I think it's, and we justbarely scratched the surface.
I want to make sure that,before I let you go, I want to
do two things.
One I want to make sure thateverybody knows where they can
get access to you and all yourinformation, your books, your
site and your movie.
(55:03):
So where can we find all ofthat information, which I will
also include in the show notesas well?
So where can we find all thatinformation?
Lizbeth (55:12):
Well, like you said before, my website,
lamaridethcom that's my first,initial and middle, initial and
last name, lamaridethcom.
We'll get you to a lot of thosethings.
I'm a little behind in updatingsome of my website, but you'll
see events, you'll see writingand my videos will be even more
(55:37):
clear in my podcast, persistenceU with Lizbeth.
The more recent episodes I'dsay the last 40 episodes are
likely on YouTube now that wehave a Zoom feature to it and I
really want you on my podcast,audra and anyway.
So you'll find it there atlamaridethcom.
(55:57):
The book is called Pieces of MeRescuing my Kidnapped Daughters
and the movie is called Stolenby their Father, and if a person
wanted to, they could justGoogle.
Where do I stream Stolen bytheir Father?
Because sometimes that changes,but for now I know that it's on
Amazon Prime at a very lowprice point to rent.
(56:18):
It's free on Lifetime.
It's because it eventuallylanded with Lifetime, started
with Cineflix, went to Lifetime,it's on Vudu and Hulu and some
other places, so that's wherethey can find that and thank you
for asking.
I have loved being here today,so excited.
Audra (56:38):
So happy that you are here, and this is the part of
the show that is one of myfavorite things to do, which is
when I get to step back from themic and give you an opportunity
to have a intimate momentdirectly with the audience,
where you get to speak directlyto them, give them a final
(56:58):
thought, just something thatthey can take with them and
contemplate with them for therest of the day.
Give them something to thinkabout.
So the mic is yours.
Lizbeth (57:09):
Oh, thank you.
Well, I like to think ofsetbacks, and we all have them.
Not all of us have huge trauma,but all of us at some point
have setbacks.
A lot of us have huge dramas.
We can allow it to not defineus, but it can refine us, and so
(57:31):
when you think of yourself as adiamond in the rough, sometimes
the process doesn't make ourlife uglier.
In the end, it really can besomething worth savoring and
something worth either writingabout or sharing with someone.
It is we connect mostly I dobelieve one of my first podcast
(57:53):
guests told me this but weconnect through our stories and
we often connect through ourbrokenness, and so if people
look online and all they'reseeing are all these successful,
happy, happy, rich, seemingpeople on vacation, that can
lead any one of us to feelingvery sad and lonely, but
connecting authentically is abeautiful, beautiful thing, and
(58:17):
we're all kind of in thisstruggle together, whether we're
willing to acknowledge it ornot, kind of in this struggle
together, whether we're willingto acknowledge it or not.
Audra (58:24):
Thank you for saying that, because social media has a
way of painting a prettypicture which none of that is
true.
Lizbeth (58:31):
It's so true, and I fall prey to it often as well.
Audra (58:41):
You know, if it's the wrong weekend and I'm alone, I'm
just like, why not me?
It's all pretend.
Everything on that social mediais pretend, so don't feel bad,
because they're they're postingall the best pictures of them
that have been airbrushed.
So it's not true, right?
If you want real stuff, if youwant real stuff, hang out with
lizbeth and I, because we'lltell you the it's not always fun
(59:03):
, but it can be funny.
It can be very funny.
Lizbeth, once again, thank youso much for being here, thank
you for your vulnerability,thank you for being willing to
share your story and youradvocacy and just spending your
day with me.
I appreciate it very much.
Lizbeth (59:20):
I thank you, audra.
This, seriously, is thehighlight of my day and probably
the entire week.
I loved hanging out with you.
Audra (59:28):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate once again youbeing here and I want to thank
all of you for listening andwe'll see you again next time.
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