June 5, 2025 • 17 mins
Brian Robertson’ leadership philosophies are based on empowering the system, not the people. With clear limits, an ‘act don’t ask’ permissive mindset, the culture seeks to foster more entrepreneurial leadership, when people can exercise authority and autonomy, rather then sitting around, waiting to be told what to do.
As the founder of Holacracy and a veteran entrepreneur, Brian brings a new model for leadership and decision-making, rooted in clarity, authority, and giving people the ability to act.
Recorded at Running Remote in Austin, Brian shares how companies can unlock speed and autonomy by creating transparent systems where roles are dynamic, authority is clearly defined, and people are trusted to lead without waiting for permission. He explains why most “empowerment” efforts fall flat, how limits actually expand freedom, and what it looks like when even the newest hire can shape the CEO’s responsibilities.
From roundabouts to role maps, this conversation is packed with practical takeaways for leaders looking to future-proof their teams and ditch outdated command-and-control models. Empower the system.
Please join me in welcoming Brian Robertson to the Work 20XX podcast.
Editor’s Note: Recorded 2025-April-30 at the Running Remote conference in Austin, Texas.
Special thanks to Liam, Egor, Ana, and Team Running Remote.
Brian Robertson: Authority, Clarity, Limits, System | Work 20XX podcast with Jeff Frick Ep49 from Running Remote
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(00:00):
Okay.
And I thinkwe will
get ready to go here.
In three, two, one.
Hey welcome backeverybody Jeff Frick here.
Coming to youfrom Austin, Texas.
And let me tell you,it's warm in Austin today.
Special edition of Work 20XX
We're on the road hereat Running Remote
excited to do a greatcollaboration with them
(00:20):
and come down and talk to
really the leaders of everything remote.
But what's more important to know is that
most of the best practices
to run fully remote companies
are also applicableto hybrid companies
in office companies,and everything in between.
So there's a lot ofgreat lessons
and it's been a packed agenda
Two stages going nonstop
and we're excitedto have our next guest.
He actually just got offthe main stage so
(00:42):
he should be fresh
and have all those thingstop of mind.
So welcoming in, he's Brian Robertson
the co-founder of Holacracy
Thank you Jeff.
Brian, great to see you.
So getting ready for this
I saw your TED Talk on Holacracy
a few years back.
Give people a basic 101 that
what is it all about?
Yeah. So Holacracy is a management framework.
It's a different waythan we're used to
(01:03):
to break down and structure
Who does what?
What do we expectof each other?
Who haswhat authority?
Ultimately, what it does
is create a system that is deeply empowering,
where people know
what they can do
without going to the meetings,
without running things upthe flagpole.
It gives peoplea ground of
of significant ability to self-lead and self-manage.
Okay.
So I'm going touse an example
that youjust used
(01:23):
which I thought waspretty illustrative
and that was comparing
a traffic intersectionthat has lights or stop signs
with one that's a roundabout.
And you made a reallyinteresting compare.
One is youyou give up control of
when you goand when you don't go.
And the other oneyou kind of have to
you have to work it out.
You have some agency,you have some responsibility.
(01:44):
The net/net is one's a lot more safer.
One gets a lot moretraffic through.
One is a lot betterthan the other.
Yeah.
And that's the roundabout, right.
We consistently see in studies.
They're more efficient,more effective,
safer all of these.
And yet they also requiremore of the driver.
[Brian] Right?[Jeff] Right, right
In a typical stoplight
you get to just waitto be told what to do
just like in a typical company.
(02:06):
And yet it worksbetter when people
retain more responsibilityfor leadership.
And you have toin a roundabout, right.
And yet a lot of our companieslook more like stoplights.
People are waiting and
outsourcing theiragency and leadership
to the systemthe managers
the management hierarchyor even just the meetings.
[Jeff] Right.
As opposed to really retainingtheir leadership capacity
(02:26):
and coordinating themselvesin real time with others.
When you do that,it works better.
It's harder, but it works better.
Right, right.
And kind of this concept of,of, you know,
getting rid of pure command and control
and you talk aboutnot only the roundabout
but just the way that cities operate
and that the way things flow
and get done,that there isn't
some Master commander sitting at the top looking down
(02:48):
like a train switcher guykind of operating everything
that everyone'skind of doing their piece
with their agency
to fulfill whateverthey're trying to get done.
Yeah. In fact, there'sbeen studies on this too.
And cities tend to,as they get larger,
they get more, there's moreinnovation per resident.
Right, the average
different measures of innovation, productivity
(03:10):
tends to go up as cities get larger.
But we see the exact oppositein companies.
As companiesget larger,
the productivity and innovation per person go down, not up.
Right, right.
And that, I thinkis a symptom
of the very different control system.
Cities are more self-organizing.
They leave people more freedom to locally adapt
and to figure outwhat makes sense to them
and to lead their own life.
Right.
Whereas a lot of companies are trying to
(03:32):
structurein a more
top down command andcontrol way, which
actually works greatfor very simple problem sets.
But we live in a world todayof overwhelming complexity
and complex adaptive systemsdon't work well with that.
And that's exactly what companies have to be today,
Right. Nowit's interesting.
There's a lot of talkabout empowerment
which kind of goes with agency and
(03:52):
and empowering peopleto have more responsibility.
But you made an interesting take.
Don't empower the people.You empower the system.
Explain the nuance there.
Yeah, well, one just noticethe paradox and the irony.
If you need someone elseto empower you
if you need the bossthe leader to empower you
what does that say aboutyou and the system you're in?
(04:12):
You're in a fundamentallydisempowering system.
If you have to sit around and wait
for somebody else to empower you.
So there's an irony there.
And as a leader
if you just go to your team tomorrow
and you tell everyone
‘Good news, you're empowered!’
you don't get an empowered team.
You get a lot of confused people
because people knowthere's really limits on their
their empowerment.
There must be somethingthey shouldn't do
(04:34):
without going tothe right process
or person or whatever.
So if you want toreally empower people,
what you need to do is empower the system they're in
by clarifyinglimits and constraints.
If you don't know your limits,
you don't know your freedom.
Right, if you don't know whatyou really shouldn't do
without talking to somebody
or getting approval somewhere
then you don't knowwhat you can do
(04:54):
without talking to anyone.
You don't knowwhat's yours to lead.
So ironically
the thing we often push against in empowerment
is structure.
We often try to get rid of it
and to some extentthat's really useful
when the structure isis useless and bureaucracy.
But what we need to do equally
is focus on
how do we clarify the structurewe really need
the limitswe really need
and how do we keep it agileso we can evolve it?
(05:15):
We don't just get calcified structurethat can never change.
How do we get structurethat is nimble?
That's learning with us
so that everyone knows
exactly where the limits of their authority are.
Right, right.
Because then they're invitedto step up and use real power
within those limits.
So you talked aboutthis concept that
that again is
feels at first blush as being in conflict.
(05:36):
But that freedom does better with limits.
And that actually you get more freedom
within a defined set of limits.
Is thatfor clarity sake?
I wonder if you can,expound on that a little bit.
Yeah.Well so
When people don't knowwhere the limits are,
they're going to spenda lot of time and energy
trying to either tiptoe aroundand look for the limits
or just be cautiousand conservative. Right.
(05:57):
There was a study on this with
kids that illustrated it really well.
Kindergartners.
they measured
some Department of Education did this.
They measured
how far out did they spread in the field
to play at recess? Right.
And they found that kids mostly clustered
pretty close in near the playground and
until theyadded a fence
around the far out perimeter of the property.
(06:17):
And the fence was,you know, two feet high,
it wasn't keeping anyone out or in.
[Jeff] Right, right.
As soon as they did that
the kids spread out.
That used the freedom.
They knew where the boundary was.
And so they filled the space
and they did so confidently and safely.
Now you can bring that.
We're not that differentthan kindergartners
in workforcessometimes.
No we’re not
Right?
When people don't knowwhat they shouldn't do.
The natural impulseis to be
(06:39):
either a little cautiousa little conservative
And kind of keep inor just let's be safe.
Let's call that meeting
and try to socialize the thingand get the buy in.
Right
It's very expensive and time consuming.
When you clarify thelimits for people
you can invite them
to spread out to use their freedom.
Go lead.
Don't, you knowas an entrepreneur
I've been an entrepreneurfor decades.
I don't go check inwith everybody
(06:59):
before I do anything right.
I know where the things are I really need to.
And I focus on clarifying that
in my company and for others
And then I lead.
I use my judgmentI use my power and I lead
and I trust
when I end up accidentallydoing something
that's maybe less than desirable
that becomes great learningfodder, right?
We can use thatto clarify
how do we improve a processor a policy or a limit
(07:19):
so we don't make thatmistake again.
Right? Right.
The tensions become the fuelfor evolution in our company
when we have an agilesystem like that at play.
Okay, so another interesting one
was you talked about the illusion of limits.
So there's one thingto know your limits.
And then unfortunately
we put limits on ourselvesthat maybe shouldn't be there.
Or you know,
maybe we're putting waytoo many limits
(07:40):
that inhibit our abilityto do more.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
And this goes backto the clarity thing.
When people don't knowwhat the limits are
they tend to assumewhat they are.
And the assumption’soften very conservative.
And sometimesthis is a challenge
when you're tryingto change your culture.
Right, if people haveif they're in the habit
of not using realautonomy and authority
then even if you try to change that
(08:02):
the habit still remains,you know?
So the culture changehere is an important one.
And what we're really trying to do
in the work I do in the framework I use
is shift people froma more restrictive culture
which is in most companies today
there's an implicit normthat says,
don't do anything you don't normally do
(08:23):
without gettingpermission,
and you get permissioneither by
running it up themanagement chain
or more likely
by calling a big meetingand socializing it.
And make sureeveryone's bought in
which is very expensiveand time consuming.
Right, and the defaultculture though is
don't act outside of your normal thing
without permission.
And what we want to do is flip that
to a permissive culturethat says, you know what?
(08:43):
Use your judgment and lead,
even if it means doing things you don't normally do.
You have permissionby default
to take any action
or any decisionyou want in the company,
unless there's a rule against it.
Right, right.
And when you have that
then the emphasis becomes,
let's clarify the minimally sufficient rules
to keep things safe
and that we can dopartly over time
(09:03):
by learning togetherwhen we need to add a limit.
Right, and when you get peopleused to that culture
you end up with a company that looks like a
company full of business partners or entrepreneurs, not employees.
Right, right.
And this happenedin my career.
I hit a point where I said,I am done with employees.
I want to
I want the whole companyto feel like co-founders
who are really owningand using real authority.
And to do that
(09:23):
you need a culture that says
Own your roleand lead.
Make decisions, use judgment,don't call the meetings,
don't run it up the flagpole.Use your authority.
And what we'll focus oninstead is getting the clarity
of when you really shouldn't do that.
[Jeff] Right, right.
And if you cantrust that clarity
you can trust your freedom.
So why are you asking me?
Why haven’t you done it already, right?
That's your response.
Yeah.
So one of the conceptswithin Holacracy
(09:45):
which is different
and I know people are probablyexcited to hear about is
is roles instead of job descriptions.
Yeah.
First off, nobody likeswriting job descriptions.
Yeah.
And to your point
no one actually everlooks at them again
after they got written, after they got hired.
And you madea funny line.
Nobody goes to the jobdescription to find the person
that they needto do something.
Because it's in their job description.
(10:06):
So talk about defining roles
and how that's a different kind of strategy.
Yeah.
So we use a rolestructure that.
So the role it'sjust a small function.
You might fill ten rolesor 20 roles or more.
And maybe on many different teams.
In your in your companythat's normal.
Just like in life we fill manyroles in our life.
You know, we might be a father and a husband
and the kitchen cleanerand whatever other roles.
(10:27):
[Jeff] Right, right.
And when youdefine the roles
not looking for perfecttheoretical clarity
which is how job descriptionsare often defined
but minimallysufficient clarity.
Let's just capturein this role
enough to give somebody a general orientation
and to solveany issues
we've actually really had.
So many of the roles
when I start workingwith a company with this
many of the rolesare very lightweight.
(10:49):
They just have a clear purposethat tells people
why they're doingwhat they're doing.
Maybe 1 or 2explicit expectations,
because we knowthere's been past issues
and this clarityis important to capture.
And then from there
go and let'slearn together.
And we add expectationsover time to these roles
as we figure out what we reallyneed to be able to count on.
Right.
So for example,true story.
(11:10):
Long ago in one ofthe companies I founded,
we hada case
I do a lot ofpublic speaking like this.
And I fill a rolecalled spokesperson
one of 20 roles in this company I filled
and I worked with somebodyin a role called Casting Agent
who had to book me for talks
and would often get frustratedbecause she'd go and
you know she'd
build a relationship with a conference organizer
and negotiate the termsthe talk and all that.
(11:32):
And she’d present it to me at the end.
And sometimes I'd say ‘Nah.’
It's not a good fityou know
not the right market
or not big enoughor whatever.
It's not worthmy time.
And she felt reallydisempowered, right.
She spent a lot of timeand energy on this.
And I shoot itdown at the end.
So we have a process in place
where she canpropose changes
to any other rolein this team.
We're both in the marketing team together.
These two roles.
(11:52):
So she proposes
‘Hey, let's add an accountabilityan expectation’
on the spokesperson role that I fill.
Right, it's actuallynotice not about her and I.
It's about the roles.
It's alreadydepersonalized a level
she proposes addingthe expectation
on the spokesperson role
for documenting the criteria you're going to use
to accept or reject engagementsand sticking with it.
And it took about two minutesin that meeting process
(12:15):
for that expectationto get added.
And then she turns to meand says, so
when will you have that drafted for me by you think and
the interestingfootnote of the story
I'm the founderof this company
and a seasoned CEOfor many years.
She was our newest hireright out of college.
And in what company
do you knowwhere the newest hire?
Right out of collegein two minutes
can add an expectationonto the founder
and then turn to him and say
(12:35):
so when will you havethat done for me by?
Right?
That's agilestructured, right?
And that's learning.
And now theroles are real
because they're capturing what we've really learned together
we need to do.
People referencetheir roles.
They look up colleagues roles
to know what they canrequest of them.
And more importantly,we have a meta process,
a governance processwe call it
to evolveall these roles
and the policies and all that.
(12:56):
So everything in the structurecan stay agile and nimble.
We can remove structurewhen it's in the way
we can add structure
when there's ambiguityslowing us down
like that case.
When structurebecomes agile
we can trust itand we can go fast.
So how long did it takeyou to give her the goods?
Yeah, I don't remember.
Probably. Honestly,a few weeks at that point.
Oh, come on.
(13:18):
So it's interesting.
There's a lot of conversationhere about, clarity of goals
and making surethat people are aligned.
And I think Sacha [Connor]was talking that
when she does her workshops with people.
Is everybody on boardwith the goals? Yeah.
Is everybody excited about the goals? Yeah.
Okay, everybodywrite down the goals.
Not three things are written down the same
but you've really generalized
(13:39):
that clarity at a higher level is really key
kind of almost a key attribute
of a highly functioningorganization.
So I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit.
Why clarity is importantand how you can expand it
well beyond just the goalsor one particular area
but really adopt it as a company wide philosophy.
I think for me,this is one of the most
(14:00):
important jobs of any leaderin the organization,
from the very topto literally anyone.
Organizational clarity.
Organizational clarityis needed for everything else.
It enables speed.
It it cuts down on allthe politics and all the mess.
If you're in a remote environment
a lot of the
the tools we have in in person environments
are meant to make upfor lack of clarity.
We have more meetingswe have more face time
(14:21):
It's a lot harder when you'reremote and you're on Zoom.
Right? Right.
Clarity is even more important.
Organizational claritydoesn't just stop at
the projects and actions and goals
which is where
most organizationsget the importance
of all right, we need clear you know actions
Who's going to do what?
And clear goals.
That's the kind of,you know, runway level.
But we need the 50,000ft view as well.
(14:42):
We need clear purpose
and we needin between,
which is about the rolesand the expectations.
The more we have clarity throughout
from the broadest,highest level purpose
to how do we break down that work?
What arethe roles?
What do we expect of each other?
Who's making which decisions?
And then the goalsand the projects
and the actionsand all that stuff.
That level of clarity
enables people to self-manage and self lead.
(15:04):
When you have all that clarity,
you don't needto go to the meetings.
You don't need to go tothe managers.
These are thefallbacks we have
when we don't knowwho makes a decision.
And then a lot of managers
get stuck in firefighting mode where
you knowinstead of
instead of architecting thesystem and clarifying things
they're jumpingand putting out fires and
and that can bequite addictive, right?
It feels good to bethe superhero
(15:25):
that gets to jump inand save the day.
Right, right.
When you're not actuallydoing anything.
Yeah
Of material wealth.
Yeah, but I like to think that the role of
a good leader or manager in a company is
much like a parent, right?
When I havea two year old
and they run out intothe middle of the road,
it's appropriateto be a superhero
fire fight, save the day, grab them,pull them out, out of the way.
But don't stop there.Teach them to look both ways.
(15:45):
But don't stop there.Teach them to look both ways.
If you still have to do that
when they're 20,you missed something.
You know, like your goalis to obsolete yourself.
Your goal is to
build the structuresin them
so that you don't need to be the superhero leader
saving the dayfor them.
Right, and I think we can apply that
as a manager or a leaderin a company to
how do we use clarity
to work ourselves out of a job?
(16:06):
This is what every entrepreneur needs to do.
Right, and I thinkthe best companies
they don't need managers per se.
They need entrepreneurs.
And that the role of a manager shifts
to more like the roleof an entrepreneur.
Create clarity so that peoplecan lead themselves
instead of them jumping in
and calling all the shots
making all the decisions.
Yeah that's great.
Well said and very clear.
(16:26):
I must, I have to say.
Thank you.
Well, Brian,it's really been a treat.
I love thethe philosophy.
And I think the clarity message
is so important and can beexpanded so far beyond.
And then like you say,
basically try to writeyourself out of the job
by giving people the autonomyso they know what to do.
All right.
Thanks again for stopping by.
Thank you so much, appreciate it.
And congrats on the book,the TED Talk.
You got all kinds of stuff going on.
(16:47):
Yes, indeed.
All right.
He's Brian, I'm Jeff
you're watching Work 20XX.
We're coming to you from Running Remote
in Austin, Texas.
It is hot in Austin, Texas.
Thanks for watching.Thanks for listening.
See you next time. Take care.
Thank you.Thank you.
That was fun. Thank you.
Hey, Jeff Frick Here
big shout out to the podcast audience.
(17:08):
Thanks for listening in.
You can get show notes and transcripts at Work20XX.com
And that also has links to the videos as well.
Appreciate you listeningin on the podcast
Do reach out
say hello, like subscribeand smash that notification bell.
Thanks for listening.Take care. Bye bye.
Okay.
And I thinkwe will
get ready to go here.
In three, two, one.
Hey welcome backeverybody Jeff Frick here.
Coming to youfrom Austin, Texas.
And let me tell you,it's warm in Austin today.
Special edition of Work 20XX
We're on the road hereat Running Remote
excited to do a greatcollaboration with them
(00:20):
and come down and talk to
really the leaders of everything remote.
But what's more important to know is that
most of the best practices
to run fully remote companies
are also applicableto hybrid companies
in office companies,and everything in between.
So there's a lot ofgreat lessons
and it's been a packed agenda
Two stages going nonstop
and we're excitedto have our next guest.
He actually just got offthe main stage so
(00:42):
he should be fresh
and have all those thingstop of mind.
So welcoming in, he's Brian Robertson
the co-founder of Holacracy
Thank you Jeff.
Brian, great to see you.
So getting ready for this
I saw your TED Talk on Holacracy
a few years back.
Give people a basic 101 that
what is it all about?
Yeah. So Holacracy is a management framework.
It's a different waythan we're used to
(01:03):
to break down and structure
Who does what?
What do we expectof each other?
Who haswhat authority?
Ultimately, what it does
is create a system that is deeply empowering,
where people know
what they can do
without going to the meetings,
without running things upthe flagpole.
It gives peoplea ground of
of significant ability to self-lead and self-manage.
Okay.
So I'm going touse an example
that youjust used
(01:23):
which I thought waspretty illustrative
and that was comparing
a traffic intersectionthat has lights or stop signs
with one that's a roundabout.
And you made a reallyinteresting compare.
One is youyou give up control of
when you goand when you don't go.
And the other oneyou kind of have to
you have to work it out.
You have some agency,you have some responsibility.
(01:44):
The net/net is one's a lot more safer.
One gets a lot moretraffic through.
One is a lot betterthan the other.
Yeah.
And that's the roundabout, right.
We consistently see in studies.
They're more efficient,more effective,
safer all of these.
And yet they also requiremore of the driver.
[Brian] Right?[Jeff] Right, right
In a typical stoplight
you get to just waitto be told what to do
just like in a typical company.
(02:06):
And yet it worksbetter when people
retain more responsibilityfor leadership.
And you have toin a roundabout, right.
And yet a lot of our companieslook more like stoplights.
People are waiting and
outsourcing theiragency and leadership
to the systemthe managers
the management hierarchyor even just the meetings.
[Jeff] Right.
As opposed to really retainingtheir leadership capacity
(02:26):
and coordinating themselvesin real time with others.
When you do that,it works better.
It's harder, but it works better.
Right, right.
And kind of this concept of,of, you know,
getting rid of pure command and control
and you talk aboutnot only the roundabout
but just the way that cities operate
and that the way things flow
and get done,that there isn't
some Master commander sitting at the top looking down
(02:48):
like a train switcher guykind of operating everything
that everyone'skind of doing their piece
with their agency
to fulfill whateverthey're trying to get done.
Yeah. In fact, there'sbeen studies on this too.
And cities tend to,as they get larger,
they get more, there's moreinnovation per resident.
Right, the average
different measures of innovation, productivity
(03:10):
tends to go up as cities get larger.
But we see the exact oppositein companies.
As companiesget larger,
the productivity and innovation per person go down, not up.
Right, right.
And that, I thinkis a symptom
of the very different control system.
Cities are more self-organizing.
They leave people more freedom to locally adapt
and to figure outwhat makes sense to them
and to lead their own life.
Right.
Whereas a lot of companies are trying to
(03:32):
structurein a more
top down command andcontrol way, which
actually works greatfor very simple problem sets.
But we live in a world todayof overwhelming complexity
and complex adaptive systemsdon't work well with that.
And that's exactly what companies have to be today,
Right. Nowit's interesting.
There's a lot of talkabout empowerment
which kind of goes with agency and
(03:52):
and empowering peopleto have more responsibility.
But you made an interesting take.
Don't empower the people.You empower the system.
Explain the nuance there.
Yeah, well, one just noticethe paradox and the irony.
If you need someone elseto empower you
if you need the bossthe leader to empower you
what does that say aboutyou and the system you're in?
(04:12):
You're in a fundamentallydisempowering system.
If you have to sit around and wait
for somebody else to empower you.
So there's an irony there.
And as a leader
if you just go to your team tomorrow
and you tell everyone
‘Good news, you're empowered!’
you don't get an empowered team.
You get a lot of confused people
because people knowthere's really limits on their
their empowerment.
There must be somethingthey shouldn't do
(04:34):
without going tothe right process
or person or whatever.
So if you want toreally empower people,
what you need to do is empower the system they're in
by clarifyinglimits and constraints.
If you don't know your limits,
you don't know your freedom.
Right, if you don't know whatyou really shouldn't do
without talking to somebody
or getting approval somewhere
then you don't knowwhat you can do
(04:54):
without talking to anyone.
You don't knowwhat's yours to lead.
So ironically
the thing we often push against in empowerment
is structure.
We often try to get rid of it
and to some extentthat's really useful
when the structure isis useless and bureaucracy.
But what we need to do equally
is focus on
how do we clarify the structurewe really need
the limitswe really need
and how do we keep it agileso we can evolve it?
(05:15):
We don't just get calcified structurethat can never change.
How do we get structurethat is nimble?
That's learning with us
so that everyone knows
exactly where the limits of their authority are.
Right, right.
Because then they're invitedto step up and use real power
within those limits.
So you talked aboutthis concept that
that again is
feels at first blush as being in conflict.
(05:36):
But that freedom does better with limits.
And that actually you get more freedom
within a defined set of limits.
Is thatfor clarity sake?
I wonder if you can,expound on that a little bit.
Yeah.Well so
When people don't knowwhere the limits are,
they're going to spenda lot of time and energy
trying to either tiptoe aroundand look for the limits
or just be cautiousand conservative. Right.
(05:57):
There was a study on this with
kids that illustrated it really well.
Kindergartners.
they measured
some Department of Education did this.
They measured
how far out did they spread in the field
to play at recess? Right.
And they found that kids mostly clustered
pretty close in near the playground and
until theyadded a fence
around the far out perimeter of the property.
(06:17):
And the fence was,you know, two feet high,
it wasn't keeping anyone out or in.
[Jeff] Right, right.
As soon as they did that
the kids spread out.
That used the freedom.
They knew where the boundary was.
And so they filled the space
and they did so confidently and safely.
Now you can bring that.
We're not that differentthan kindergartners
in workforcessometimes.
No we’re not
Right?
When people don't knowwhat they shouldn't do.
The natural impulseis to be
(06:39):
either a little cautiousa little conservative
And kind of keep inor just let's be safe.
Let's call that meeting
and try to socialize the thingand get the buy in.
Right
It's very expensive and time consuming.
When you clarify thelimits for people
you can invite them
to spread out to use their freedom.
Go lead.
Don't, you knowas an entrepreneur
I've been an entrepreneurfor decades.
I don't go check inwith everybody
(06:59):
before I do anything right.
I know where the things are I really need to.
And I focus on clarifying that
in my company and for others
And then I lead.
I use my judgmentI use my power and I lead
and I trust
when I end up accidentallydoing something
that's maybe less than desirable
that becomes great learningfodder, right?
We can use thatto clarify
how do we improve a processor a policy or a limit
(07:19):
so we don't make thatmistake again.
Right? Right.
The tensions become the fuelfor evolution in our company
when we have an agilesystem like that at play.
Okay, so another interesting one
was you talked about the illusion of limits.
So there's one thingto know your limits.
And then unfortunately
we put limits on ourselvesthat maybe shouldn't be there.
Or you know,
maybe we're putting waytoo many limits
(07:40):
that inhibit our abilityto do more.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
And this goes backto the clarity thing.
When people don't knowwhat the limits are
they tend to assumewhat they are.
And the assumption’soften very conservative.
And sometimesthis is a challenge
when you're tryingto change your culture.
Right, if people haveif they're in the habit
of not using realautonomy and authority
then even if you try to change that
(08:02):
the habit still remains,you know?
So the culture changehere is an important one.
And what we're really trying to do
in the work I do in the framework I use
is shift people froma more restrictive culture
which is in most companies today
there's an implicit normthat says,
don't do anything you don't normally do
(08:23):
without gettingpermission,
and you get permissioneither by
running it up themanagement chain
or more likely
by calling a big meetingand socializing it.
And make sureeveryone's bought in
which is very expensiveand time consuming.
Right, and the defaultculture though is
don't act outside of your normal thing
without permission.
And what we want to do is flip that
to a permissive culturethat says, you know what?
(08:43):
Use your judgment and lead,
even if it means doing things you don't normally do.
You have permissionby default
to take any action
or any decisionyou want in the company,
unless there's a rule against it.
Right, right.
And when you have that
then the emphasis becomes,
let's clarify the minimally sufficient rules
to keep things safe
and that we can dopartly over time
(09:03):
by learning togetherwhen we need to add a limit.
Right, and when you get peopleused to that culture
you end up with a company that looks like a
company full of business partners or entrepreneurs, not employees.
Right, right.
And this happenedin my career.
I hit a point where I said,I am done with employees.
I want to
I want the whole companyto feel like co-founders
who are really owningand using real authority.
And to do that
(09:23):
you need a culture that says
Own your roleand lead.
Make decisions, use judgment,don't call the meetings,
don't run it up the flagpole.Use your authority.
And what we'll focus oninstead is getting the clarity
of when you really shouldn't do that.
[Jeff] Right, right.
And if you cantrust that clarity
you can trust your freedom.
So why are you asking me?
Why haven’t you done it already, right?
That's your response.
Yeah.
So one of the conceptswithin Holacracy
(09:45):
which is different
and I know people are probablyexcited to hear about is
is roles instead of job descriptions.
Yeah.
First off, nobody likeswriting job descriptions.
Yeah.
And to your point
no one actually everlooks at them again
after they got written, after they got hired.
And you madea funny line.
Nobody goes to the jobdescription to find the person
that they needto do something.
Because it's in their job description.
(10:06):
So talk about defining roles
and how that's a different kind of strategy.
Yeah.
So we use a rolestructure that.
So the role it'sjust a small function.
You might fill ten rolesor 20 roles or more.
And maybe on many different teams.
In your in your companythat's normal.
Just like in life we fill manyroles in our life.
You know, we might be a father and a husband
and the kitchen cleanerand whatever other roles.
(10:27):
[Jeff] Right, right.
And when youdefine the roles
not looking for perfecttheoretical clarity
which is how job descriptionsare often defined
but minimallysufficient clarity.
Let's just capturein this role
enough to give somebody a general orientation
and to solveany issues
we've actually really had.
So many of the roles
when I start workingwith a company with this
many of the rolesare very lightweight.
(10:49):
They just have a clear purposethat tells people
why they're doingwhat they're doing.
Maybe 1 or 2explicit expectations,
because we knowthere's been past issues
and this clarityis important to capture.
And then from there
go and let'slearn together.
And we add expectationsover time to these roles
as we figure out what we reallyneed to be able to count on.
Right.
So for example,true story.
(11:10):
Long ago in one ofthe companies I founded,
we hada case
I do a lot ofpublic speaking like this.
And I fill a rolecalled spokesperson
one of 20 roles in this company I filled
and I worked with somebodyin a role called Casting Agent
who had to book me for talks
and would often get frustratedbecause she'd go and
you know she'd
build a relationship with a conference organizer
and negotiate the termsthe talk and all that.
(11:32):
And she’d present it to me at the end.
And sometimes I'd say ‘Nah.’
It's not a good fityou know
not the right market
or not big enoughor whatever.
It's not worthmy time.
And she felt reallydisempowered, right.
She spent a lot of timeand energy on this.
And I shoot itdown at the end.
So we have a process in place
where she canpropose changes
to any other rolein this team.
We're both in the marketing team together.
These two roles.
(11:52):
So she proposes
‘Hey, let's add an accountabilityan expectation’
on the spokesperson role that I fill.
Right, it's actuallynotice not about her and I.
It's about the roles.
It's alreadydepersonalized a level
she proposes addingthe expectation
on the spokesperson role
for documenting the criteria you're going to use
to accept or reject engagementsand sticking with it.
And it took about two minutesin that meeting process
(12:15):
for that expectationto get added.
And then she turns to meand says, so
when will you have that drafted for me by you think and
the interestingfootnote of the story
I'm the founderof this company
and a seasoned CEOfor many years.
She was our newest hireright out of college.
And in what company
do you knowwhere the newest hire?
Right out of collegein two minutes
can add an expectationonto the founder
and then turn to him and say
(12:35):
so when will you havethat done for me by?
Right?
That's agilestructured, right?
And that's learning.
And now theroles are real
because they're capturing what we've really learned together
we need to do.
People referencetheir roles.
They look up colleagues roles
to know what they canrequest of them.
And more importantly,we have a meta process,
a governance processwe call it
to evolveall these roles
and the policies and all that.
(12:56):
So everything in the structurecan stay agile and nimble.
We can remove structurewhen it's in the way
we can add structure
when there's ambiguityslowing us down
like that case.
When structurebecomes agile
we can trust itand we can go fast.
So how long did it takeyou to give her the goods?
Yeah, I don't remember.
Probably. Honestly,a few weeks at that point.
Oh, come on.
(13:18):
So it's interesting.
There's a lot of conversationhere about, clarity of goals
and making surethat people are aligned.
And I think Sacha [Connor]was talking that
when she does her workshops with people.
Is everybody on boardwith the goals? Yeah.
Is everybody excited about the goals? Yeah.
Okay, everybodywrite down the goals.
Not three things are written down the same
but you've really generalized
(13:39):
that clarity at a higher level is really key
kind of almost a key attribute
of a highly functioningorganization.
So I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit.
Why clarity is importantand how you can expand it
well beyond just the goalsor one particular area
but really adopt it as a company wide philosophy.
I think for me,this is one of the most
(14:00):
important jobs of any leaderin the organization,
from the very topto literally anyone.
Organizational clarity.
Organizational clarityis needed for everything else.
It enables speed.
It it cuts down on allthe politics and all the mess.
If you're in a remote environment
a lot of the
the tools we have in in person environments
are meant to make upfor lack of clarity.
We have more meetingswe have more face time
(14:21):
It's a lot harder when you'reremote and you're on Zoom.
Right? Right.
Clarity is even more important.
Organizational claritydoesn't just stop at
the projects and actions and goals
which is where
most organizationsget the importance
of all right, we need clear you know actions
Who's going to do what?
And clear goals.
That's the kind of,you know, runway level.
But we need the 50,000ft view as well.
(14:42):
We need clear purpose
and we needin between,
which is about the rolesand the expectations.
The more we have clarity throughout
from the broadest,highest level purpose
to how do we break down that work?
What arethe roles?
What do we expect of each other?
Who's making which decisions?
And then the goalsand the projects
and the actionsand all that stuff.
That level of clarity
enables people to self-manage and self lead.
(15:04):
When you have all that clarity,
you don't needto go to the meetings.
You don't need to go tothe managers.
These are thefallbacks we have
when we don't knowwho makes a decision.
And then a lot of managers
get stuck in firefighting mode where
you knowinstead of
instead of architecting thesystem and clarifying things
they're jumpingand putting out fires and
and that can bequite addictive, right?
It feels good to bethe superhero
(15:25):
that gets to jump inand save the day.
Right, right.
When you're not actuallydoing anything.
Yeah
Of material wealth.
Yeah, but I like to think that the role of
a good leader or manager in a company is
much like a parent, right?
When I havea two year old
and they run out intothe middle of the road,
it's appropriateto be a superhero
fire fight, save the day, grab them,pull them out, out of the way.
But don't stop there.Teach them to look both ways.
(15:45):
But don't stop there.Teach them to look both ways.
If you still have to do that
when they're 20,you missed something.
You know, like your goalis to obsolete yourself.
Your goal is to
build the structuresin them
so that you don't need to be the superhero leader
saving the dayfor them.
Right, and I think we can apply that
as a manager or a leaderin a company to
how do we use clarity
to work ourselves out of a job?
(16:06):
This is what every entrepreneur needs to do.
Right, and I thinkthe best companies
they don't need managers per se.
They need entrepreneurs.
And that the role of a manager shifts
to more like the roleof an entrepreneur.
Create clarity so that peoplecan lead themselves
instead of them jumping in
and calling all the shots
making all the decisions.
Yeah that's great.
Well said and very clear.
(16:26):
I must, I have to say.
Thank you.
Well, Brian,it's really been a treat.
I love thethe philosophy.
And I think the clarity message
is so important and can beexpanded so far beyond.
And then like you say,
basically try to writeyourself out of the job
by giving people the autonomyso they know what to do.
All right.
Thanks again for stopping by.
Thank you so much, appreciate it.
And congrats on the book,the TED Talk.
You got all kinds of stuff going on.
(16:47):
Yes, indeed.
All right.
He's Brian, I'm Jeff
you're watching Work 20XX.
We're coming to you from Running Remote
in Austin, Texas.
It is hot in Austin, Texas.
Thanks for watching.Thanks for listening.
See you next time. Take care.
Thank you.Thank you.
That was fun. Thank you.
Hey, Jeff Frick Here
big shout out to the podcast audience.
(17:08):
Thanks for listening in.
You can get show notes and transcripts at Work20XX.com
And that also has links to the videos as well.
Appreciate you listeningin on the podcast
Do reach out
say hello, like subscribeand smash that notification bell.
Thanks for listening.Take care. Bye bye.
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