May 3, 2025 • 37 mins
Dominic Price returns to Work 20XX, this time from the floor of Atlassian’s Team ’25 conference in Anaheim. Dom shared his candor, introspection, experiences, and hopes on the back end of a busy week, in person, across a small high boy table, on far more than the future of work. Simultaneously tired out and fired up, it promises to take some fun and unexpected turns.
Dominic has multiple frameworks, available to all, which can help all teams perform better. From the User Manual, to Working Agreements, the Personal Moral Inventory to the Modern Work Manifesto, think of them as intentional guide rails to prevent unnecessary friction and turbulence down the road when unfounded assumptions collide into behavior and attitude differences around specific actions. Sometimes resulting in intentional internal sabotage.
Dom is more than playbooks. He leans into the learning attitude, and looking in for opportunities to have existing beliefs challenged and updated with new information, so we can evolve and progress, not get stuck.
Beyond active listening, ask questions, be a catalyst, be curious, be explicit in your acceptance and actively seek out alternative views, approaches, and opinions.
How would you approach this problem? What would you do differently? Be the catalyst to move the knowledge forward.
Please join me in welcoming Dominic Price back to the Work 20XX podcast
This time, live and in person, from Atlassian Team ‘25.
Thank you Dom
Editors Note:
Recorded 2025-Apr-10, Anaheim Convention Center. My first solo onsite recording with some new gear. Missing my rock star production team.
Special shout out to Rob Castaneda and Team ServiceRocket for sharing their booth to enable this recording.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
All right.
In three, two, one.
Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here.
Coming to you from Anaheim.
Not the home studiofor a little something different.
I came down to theAnaheim Convention Center
right across the street from the happiest place on Earth to
to come see Atlassianand their Team ‘25 event.
I think there’s 5,000 people runningaround the convention center.
(00:21):
And we're excitedto have our next guest.
You know him as Dom Price.
He’s been on before,Dom, great to see.
What's your official title?
[Jeff] Work Futurist?[Dom] Work Futurist
I should know that.
Best made upjob ever
I should know that.
Well, so I was sitting in on your,
your session yesterday, and I have lots of great notes.
I want to jump in to you
it was all about building a great cultureright in the workplace.
(00:41):
So one of the first ones ‘TTV’
‘Time to Value’
‘Time to Value’
which is also often said ‘Time to Money’
or excuse me, ‘Time to Market’
what I wanted to sharewith you is Craig Barrett
when I worked at Intel
he said, no, no, no, it's‘Time To Money.’
Yeah.
So when you think abouttime to value, time to market,
time to money,
how do you accelerate that,help people accelerate that?
(01:02):
So the honest answer is,
I think the mistake we've made in,
in organizations recently
is when we said time to market,
we did theeasy things fast
and we left the hard things.
[Jeff] Isn’t that justthe human way?
Yeah. And so what's happened is
we've got a whole lot of thingsout to customers and then gone.
Yeah, they don't value themthey don't want them.
(01:23):
But we were fast. Right.
And so what's happening in a lot of businesses right now is
is this, this curiosity.
What do our customersactually want?
What do they value?
What will they happily hand over money for
because they get so much value from it
they're happyto spend.
So I think time to value
is like the time to money moment.
It’s like
there's no point in meshipping something
if no one'sgoing to use it.
(01:44):
[Jeff] Right.
So the difference ofthe time to value
is I have tointrinsically understand
the wants, the desires, the needs, the problems
of the person I'm delivering to,
which is different to.
Here's a backlog, I’ve shipped somethingand I'm done.
Right, right and I’m theproduct manager.
And I'm so proud of my new baby that I gave birth.
Yeah I've shipped a thing. Right.
And so time to value requires more curiosity.
(02:06):
It also requires you to work differently
across theorganization.
So instead of getting to Friday
and celebrating shipping,
you have tothen wait
two weeks, three months will go
how's the customer using the thing we gave them
and do they value it?
Right
It's a different question andoften a quite confronting answer.
Yeah, I think that'sone of the un
(02:26):
unreported benefits of a subscription model
because if you just buy in a perpetual license,
you know, maybe every year
[Jeff] you gotta justify the extra 15% [Dom] you think about it
But if you're payingevery single month,
Yep
you've got that engagement.
And it also forces us vendor side.
Forcing function
We’ve got to keep delivering
every single month.
It’s a great forcing function.
But it's funny how, essentiallyin the last like 5 or 10 years,
(02:50):
a lot of the senior leadersI've worked with, I'm like,
you've inadvertently createdso much urgency in your business
that you're busydoing stupid things.
So your urgent, but you have no purpose.
Right, right.
[Jeff] Not, It’s not a recipe for success, no.[Dom] It’s not ideal
Alright, I want to go toanother one of your topics
which is learning velocity.[Dom] This is my favorite.
And a friend of mine, Bill Schmarzo he once said
(03:13):
that scale learning is actually more powerful
than scale economics.
Yeah.
Which ispretty profound
because we know how powerfulscale economics are.
But you talk about scale learningand trying to expand it
and accelerate itand spread it out.
Share some of your thoughts about,you know, what it's all about.
So essentially just imagine
there's two types of organizations in the world.
(03:33):
One that'svery accepting
of changes happening in their environment
and aroundtheir world.
And they seethose changes.
They take insights from them,
and they use those insightsto course correct right
to stay relevant.
The second organizationis ignorant
to what's happeningoutside its four walls.
And it's like we have a planand we're doing it regardless.
(03:53):
So they have nolearning velocity.
They're notgoing to learn
because they're not listening. They're not curious.
They might ship fast,they might ship good.
They might see somethingthat seemed like a good idea,
but they've forgottento listen to the market.
They've forgot to listenoutside their four walls.
So I have a belief,
I don't care if I'm right or wrong on this one,
but I have a beliefthat learning velocity,
(04:14):
the ability to take in inside,apply it, course correct
and redeploy something different,
a different productor a different service.
That is a positive differentiatorfor any business right now,
because every industryI work with
is up againstcompetitive challenges.
And if you learn one degree fasterthan your competition,
I think youcan win.
Yeah.
So it's not
(04:35):
it's not what we've been talkingabout for a few years.
This execution muscle thateveryone was concerned about.
It's not delivery.
It's open your eyes,open your ears, open your senses.
What can you learnand how can you apply it?
[Jeff] Yeah.
The irony is,
when I talk about thisto business leaders
and when they get honest which is,sometimes over a glass of wine
and sometimes in a quiet room, they're like,
(04:55):
oh no, we have all the insights.
We do nothingwith them.
[Dom] Most businesses I work with, that’s what I mean.[Jeff] That’s even worse, right?
Most businesses, it’s not a I need more data.
It's I need more permission and freedom
to use that datato course correct.
And they’re nervousto course correct.
Because what you have to say is
the plan we built Jeffwas wrong.
(05:16):
Learning velocity means saying
the way we thought this was going to happen was wrong.
We have to admit our mistake and our
and our fragility
to forge a new path.
Yeah.
If we're never going to admit our mistake,
we're never going to learn.
Yeah. It's interesting.
I was just in Lesley Martin's.
I was looking up Lesley Martin'ssession from, Udemy.
She had said they even have one day a month
(05:36):
that they give everybodythe day off to learn,
which ispretty amazing.
And, you know, most people, you know, it’s like
here's a tool, here's a tool, he’s a tool
but we don't actuallyspend the time
to help people get the most out of the tool.
So mate, this is where theworld gets deeply ironic.
So me and you go to a whole of conferences like this and
and the average conference you go to
finds an elite sports person.
We have Jenson Buttonwe have James Vowles
(05:57):
from [Atlassian] Williams Formula 1 team.
They put them on stage
and they tell you about elite performance
in a sportsteam.
And none of us sit down and go
‘Hang on. Thereal difference is’
you spend a lot of time training
to then, do.
Right
and in business teams
we spend all of our time doingand no time training
[Jeff] Right.
So the one lessonI always take
when I listen to anelite sports person is
(06:19):
I need to invest inmy learning, my training,
because otherwise I'm justrepeating the same version of me
and I'm not improving.
Right, right.
So that one day a month.
It sounds indulgent, but you’re like
that makessense.
You've got 12 opportunities a year
to improve how you workand course correct?
Yeah, that should be the norm, like
when can we makethat the standard.
(06:40):
[Jeff] Right.
[Dom] That we all adhere to. [Jeff] Right, right
[Jeff] And how much of thatI mean
how many other projects do you have
that you invest at least that much time
[Jeff] that don’t have near the yield [Dom] Easily, yes.
don’t have near the yield.
All right, so another thing that you talked about,
is head, heart, and handsand storytelling.
And as much as it's about features and cost benefits
and trying to deliversatisfaction,
(07:01):
how do you package thatin such a way that people
are going to be more receptive to it?
And you guys even have a personwho's in charge of story telling
[Dom] I know [Jeff] You have the coolest titles of any company.
It’s funny because you'rea natural storyteller, and
and not only are youa natural storyteller,
you're great at getting other peopleto tell their story right,
which is itself an art form.
In my world at Atlassian
(07:22):
we have a whole of people that default to fact,
we have a lot of engineers,
a lot of high IQ, highly intelligent people
that see the world as
black and white, right, right or wrong.
And so when that comes to change,
many people will often say,
‘Hey Jeff, we need to change.’
And you’re like‘And?’
I'm like, well we justwe need to change,
you’re like no, no, where's the story?
(07:42):
Right.
And so the model we've used internally for a while,
with all of our teamsand even our sales teams
and our marketing teams, is,
if you imagine a world of head, heart and hands,
head is the logic.
Right?
If we make this change, we get 70% more of something, right?
Some people reallylove the numbers.
They love the logic.
The second part is the heart,the emotion.
(08:04):
When we get that 70%increase, here's how it'll feel.
And you're like, ooh, like,
now we're getting it.
It'll feel better,you'll feel faster.
You'll feel like you've got more mojo.
You'll feel more effective.
You'll feel more valuable.
You're like, ahaa,I like the feeling.
So if I do the 70,that's the feeling.
You’re like, cool.
The hands is what's the action?
I now need you to do xand y and z to achieve that.
(08:27):
What we find when we roll out this training
at Atlassianaround storytelling,
is people have one of those they default to.
So I hate to stereotype,but let's do it.
I'm not going to get fired.
Our engineers default to logic.
They want to see the 0’s and 1’s.
Right.
HR and Marketing default to heart.
How does it feel?
You’re like...
And our program manager’s are like,
give methe action.
(08:48):
Give me actionwhere’s the task?
Right.
Well, well you're like, cool
I get then you default to one
an effective storyneeds all three.
So what we're
What we're willing to do is to
package a course
And the reason we're doing this is
every single day, every leader,
every workerin Atlassian
has to influencesomeone else
to do something on their behalf
every single day.
(09:09):
And if you do thatthrough storytelling,
it's really effective.
The alternative isyou do it through favors
No business can scalethrough favors.
[Jeff] No, no, that runs out,
[Jeff] that runs out of juice pretty quickly [Dom] runs out
Jeff, can you do me a favorand run that report?
Can you do mea favor man?
Favors don't last.
But storytelling drives permanent persistent change.
Right.
So another big theme here is
(09:30):
you talked about it in your thingis the user manual.
Yeah.
And also kind of the documenting of goals.
And I think, you know,one of my favorite lines, right.
‘Assume’ makes an‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’.
And there's way too much assumption going on.
And then also making surethat those goals are aligning
to that bigger objective.
And then assomebody said,
and that's not that's not the work product
No
that's not the output of whatwe're trying to get done.
(09:51):
So share a little bit about you know,
you invest upfront in sharpening the saw
You invest in front of defining these things.
Yeah.
To get a whole lot more efficientwhen you're actually in flow.
Yeah yeah. So great.Great question.
So again imagine you're a new team forming together.
The temptation is
We've got some goalslet's start the work.
Right, the quicker we start the quicker we finish right.
And you're like maybe not.
(10:11):
So one of things we do is we say,
we say toour team well,
let's assume you've never worked together, right?
Dom, Jeff, Mary and Rajeevare going to work together.
The danger is we all assume
how each other works.
Because you work like me, right?
Surely you all work like me.
Well you don't.
You've all got different backgrounds,
different customs andcultures and rituals.
So the first thing we do is the
‘My User Manual’ exercise
(10:32):
‘My User Manual’ is
if you buy me from an electronic shop,
how do you use me?
How do you consume me?
If you buy a new TV?
Go to the user manual.
You hire a human,no user manual.
So we document it and we tell that story to each other.
Here's how I like feedback.
Here's how I communicate.
Here aremy values.
Here's how I work well.
Here are my working hours.
Here are my working conditions.
And when you hear thatyou're like, Ahh
(10:53):
you're different than me.How cool.
Right
I can work with you now.
So that's step one.
Step two is
we build asocial contract.
It's called a‘Working Agreement’
of how we're going to work together.
When are we going to meet?
How dowe meet?
What does themeeting look like?
How do we communicate?
Is it Slack? WhatsApp? Confluence? Jira?
We build all that
those rituals on purposein advance.
(11:15):
Because againI have my way of working.
You have your way.
Right.
If we glue them togetherby accident, it's really clunky.
You think I'm doing it?I think you're doing it.
We fall out.
Right, right.
So we build that social contract of
how we're going to worktogether as humans.
Then we start the work.
How do new employeeskind of take that when, you know,
they sit down and you're like,
(11:36):
Okay, it's day one.
We're so excitedfor you to join us,
now we want you to fill out this.
[Dom] Yeah
This profile about how do you like the work?
[Dom] Yeah
They must be going. What?
I've never, no one’s never asked me that before.
So they find it originally quite confronting,
then quite confusing.
And then it doesn't take longfor the penny to drop, there’s that
Ahhhhhh
I can now remember all the circumstances
(11:57):
where I didn'thave this
and how it caused thrashing, arguments,
rework, fallouts.
Not because anyonewas malicious,
Right
Because I just didn't know.
Right
So a prime example
There is someone who I workedwith a few years ago,
and we just always fell out
to the point where
we went out of our wayto jeopardize each other.
We were like, I will take you down.
(12:17):
And we've been not working well together for a while.
And one day we're in the same leadership team.
And we did the My User Manual exercise
and this lady went firstand she's like feedback.
She's like, I hate receivingfeedback in the moment
because it feels like an attack.
I like feedback after the event
in written form with an example.
I will digest it
(12:38):
and wheneverI've digested it,
I will respond to you
And I was like ‘Oh’
So then it’s my turn I’m like
I like feedback in the moment.
Right?
And if you give it meafter the event,
I feel like it's an attackbecause I can't respond.
[Dom] The, we were identical people,[Jeff] 180 degrees
but we werethe same
like every other areas of my user manual same, same.
(13:00):
So we were 95% aligned
just as humans.
But the 5% difference literallymade us hate each other.
[Jeff] Right
As employees of the same company.
And you’re like ‘ha’ so we’re like,
hang on, if we can solve that,
if we can come to a compromiseof how we do feedback,
which we did,
we then becamethe most formidable duo.
(13:21):
And it’s so bizarre because I’m like
I remember saying to this person I'm like,
I honestly have been going out ofmy way to jeopardize your career.
And they're like, oh, same.
I've been doing that to youI hate you.
And I'm like, no, I hate you.
And then you're like,you do realize
we're more alikethan we are different.
[Jeff] Right
But the one difference stops us from being effective
[Jeff] Right
Once we found outIt wasn't that we changed.
We just compromised.
(13:41):
We agreed on amutual way of working
once we had that,we're like
we're unbeatable.
Because the diversity we brought,
the challenges we brought to each other,
made us better togetherthan we were apart.
Right, right.
It's just so bizarre, right,that you can just have a
180 degree different attitude about
what's the best practicesfor feedback.
And you both can be completely right
(14:02):
[Jeff] in the way you like to take it.[Dom] We’re both right.
Okay, so another exciting thing
I want to congratulate youon your Atlassian
‘Experts Unleashed’ podcast.
[Dom] Yes. Thank you. [Jeff] Got through the first season.
So since we're talking about feedback.
I couldn't help but think ofa segment with Patty McCord
[Jeff] who specifically said [Dom] I love that human
I love it, she said, you know
I think you were talking aboutsomebody you wanted to change.
(14:23):
Maybe it was this guyand she's like,
Well did you ever tell himthat you expect him to change?
When she dropped that line on me,she broke me that day.
And the other thing that she said
was for feedbackif you give it
positive feedbackin the moment,
that person will be doing thatsame behavior later that day.
So I want to
(14:44):
I got a bunch of names of some of your guests.
I want to ask get your reaction
but let's just go ahead and start with Patty.
I mean, what an incredible human.
I've known her.
I know you've known her for a long time as well.
She's just a gift because
There’s
it's just a life experience
or a stage of life or an age or
there's somethingthat's happened to Patty
where she can look me in the eye with a smile,
(15:06):
deliver a line that completely breaks all of my foundations
but in such a kind and caring way,
because she wants meto be a better person.
Right
She just does not suffer any B.S.
And so in that example,
I was drinking winewith her one day
and having a good old bitch
and complain and whingeabout a colleague
and she just looked me in the eyeand she's like,
and how did they respondwhen you told them that?
(15:28):
And I was like,Ahhhhhhh
I haven't told them that.
She's like, ‘But you expect them to change?’
I was like, ‘Oh God, you've done it again.’
Like you've broken me.
And she just makes mea better person, but
I always have like
It’s like an AI Rovo agent
I've got a little Patty voicein the back of my head
that every now and then I'm in a situation, I'm like.
[Dom] What would Patty do?[Jeff] would Patty do
(15:49):
that’s good one.
What would Patty do?
cause it normally makes me a better person.
It normally enables meto pay it forward.
It normallymeans I
has the confrontingtough conversation
early rather than late,
and it's easierrather than harder.
And I do it through
curiosity andgenerous assumptions.
Not I want to change youor make you a better person.
(16:09):
I just want to have a chat.
So she's helped mein my career
and that episode, I loved it.
There was so many gems in there, I’m like
we can all try and be a little better at how we operate.
And she was fired up in thatshe was fired up.
[Jeff] I think, she was fired up[Dom] She's always fired up.
When I talked to hertwo years ago,
so I think she's always fired up.
All right, let's shiftgears another one.
So Andy Walshetelling this great story
(16:31):
about basically putting peopleoutside of their comfort zone.
And the specificI think he says
he takes them out into the wilderness.
[Dom] Yeah.
And watchestheir senses
basically turnback on
because as people we’re so
We have to kind of deaden everything,
[Jeff] so we can pay attention to what’s going on[Dom] We’re muted, we’re we’re
In society we’re muted andmuted and pre programmed
(16:52):
Right.
And he loves to take people outof that comfort zone, genuinely
not their like LinkedIn comfort zone,
which is a weird sort of meme,
but like genuinely outof their comfort zone.
But then show them their natural
survival instincttheir natural reactions
and just gets them to hone it and train it so
There's a few examples,he shared
There's one he sharedon the show but
the one he didn’t share on the show which is one of my favorites,
(17:15):
he took a whole lot ofelite athletes.
And one of them was a Red Bull fighter pilot
who does all the stunts,
and they've been tryingto do this specific stunt.
And they realized through all these MRI scanners,
that the thing holdingthis pilot back was fear.
So they had an assumption.
A Red Bull pilot had fear in there
Everyone has some level of fear.
(17:36):
So they had ahypothesis that
you could just manipulatethe fear response in a human
and then get them to redo the stunt.
So what they did is with this particular person,
they did the whole lot of research
and this person was petrifiedof snakes and spiders.
So they built a giant dark room,pitch black,
full of snakes and spiders.
They put all this monitoringequipment on this person.
They went, ‘You have to navigate this room’
(17:58):
and come out the other end.
It's a labyrinth. You have to get through the labyrinth
in a certain time
but you also haveto keep your heart rate
and your physiological responsesunder a certain level.
So they race throughcause it snakes and spiders.
All the levels are too high.
Do it again, do it again,do it again, do it again.
After like the eighth time
this person's just controlledall their responses.
They put themstraight in the plane
(18:20):
and they do the stunt.
That's amazing.
Now
You almost like wear it out, right?
Just wear outthe fear.
But the fear grows back, right?
Cause we adapt to our surroundings.
So all they did was say
in this false environment
I can retrain your response
and then we can swap the environment
when you're back in society thankfully
the human body that we regrow,
that response to fear otherwise.
(18:41):
Right. We'd all be mavericks.
Yeah.
Well it's just we're basically the game he plays is
his view is the brainis completely moldable,
and we can all mold our brainto be subtly different people
if we choose to.
[Jeff] If we choose to,
If we think we're hardwired,
we're rejecting the opportunityto change and improve.
Yeah, it's amazing I’ve been watching some YouTubes
some of these, deepfree diver guys
(19:02):
that go down on the string.
Yeah,
One guy, I think, can’t even remember the number?
Right, I think it waslike 160m?
It's crazy
On one breathof air
and it's like it's 4.5 minutes I mean
It’s unfathomablestuff that they do,
but, but
it’s totally.
[Jeff] getting control their of their biology.[Dom] His argument is
People think it's a physiological purely physical
and their like the role of the brain is huge in those things.
(19:24):
Yeah, yeahit's amazing.
It's why we all havea mindset coach
the mindset game.
If you're atennis player,
your mindset coachisn't helping you swing a racket,
but they're helping you mentallybe prepared for that game.
Right, right.
All right, got another one for you, Ben Crowe
Living in the gap or living in the gain
[Dom] I[Jeff] What do you say?
(19:44):
So I and Ben was episode one. you know
I've knownhim for years.
He talked to me about thatthe week before I got married.
And I remember lying in bed with my now wife.
And I was like,
just had this conversation with Ben,
something weneed to talk about.
She’s like what?And I was like,
so instead of me telling her,I'll just showed her the clip.
And I'm like,
how much of what we do
(20:05):
do you think is in the gap or the gain?
So explain it to our listeners that missed that episode
What's theessence of the.
A simplification.
There's two ways of living life.
If you're living lifein the gap,
you're permanently looking at what you've not got.
And then when you.
So, I'm a public speaker
and I do an eventwith 5,000 people, I'm like
five thousand’s not enoughI wanted ten thousand.
(20:27):
You did an event with 10,000 and you’re like
it’s not enough, I want to crackAmerica. You crack America.
It’s not enough, I wanna, it’s like
you always want more
because you're living in this gap.
And if you're living in the gap,
you forget to recognize and reward your success.
Right, it's you're literally spiraling down.
Yeah.
[Jeff] Because you’re never achieve [Dom] Whatever you achieve
[Jeff] You're never achieving.[Dom] You're never achieving.
You're nevergetting there.
I've always confused that with ambition.
(20:50):
Right, so I had a different word for it,which is the wrong word,
because then when,when Ben was like,
if you're living in the gain,you reflect back.
You look back over a yearover a quarter, over a few years,
and you celebratewhat you've achieved,
[Dom] how you did it,[Jeff] What you accomplished
the things that went wrong,the things that went well.
And he's like, and I'm like,
but then you're not ambitious.
He says no, no, no,you're still ambitious,
but you're rewarding and recognizing yourself for what you've done.
(21:13):
And you're then backing yourselfto achieve the next thing.
But you're doing it for you
not for some weird extrinsic motivator
[Jeff] Right, right.
So whether I have 5,000 people or 10,000 in an audience
he’s like, why does that matter to you?
And you're like,it doesn't.
Right.
He’s like if fifty peoplehear your message
and they change howthey work, are you happy?
And I'm like, yeah.
He’s like yeah.
(21:33):
[Jeff] That's great.
So the gap
is this notion that you're chasingthe never ending dream.
The gain is going,you're still really ambitious,
but you're accepting that
you aren't defined by your success.
You're defined by how you live life, your morals,
your values, your happiness,your relationships.
Not by how many peoplelike your Facebook post.
(21:53):
Right.
All right, another one for you.
I'm just going to drop the name
and you tell me firstthing comes to mind.
Genevieve Bell
Genevieve is
someone who inspired meto understand AI
from a human
societal standpoint
and who showed methat there is a blueprint
for how we can do this morally right.
(22:15):
If we look at the past.
She has researched cultures
that are 60,000 years old
to understand how technologychanges positively impacted,
and negativelyimpacted society.
I fear that some people thinkthat AI is a brand new thing
and they don't realize it's
just another technologyadvancement.
Right, right.
Her blueprint for how we can do this,
(22:37):
equitably, fairly,inclusively, and with morals
is written down in therefor us to use if we choose.
Oh, we can go make all the samemistakes we made in the past.
[Jeff] Let's hope we don't.[Dom] Let's hope we don't.
Yeah, I saw Social Dilemma.Scared the piss out of me.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, now this is one of yours,
although I think you stole it from somebody
or somebody gave it to you.
Argue like you're right.
(22:57):
[Dom] Listen like you're wrong.[Jeff] Listen like you're wrong.
That's great. How can you do both?
Really easy. I wasn't doing both.
I used to argue like I'm rightand listen like I’m right
In which case you listento the confirmation,
or you listen to the person andyou're like, cute, you're wrong.
It's just a matter of timetil you realize you're wrong
because I'm right.
I got it from Dan Pinkat the same time, he gave me,
(23:19):
a challengewhich was,
less conversion, more conversation.
That's a great one.
And it's the same flavor, right?
With argue like you're right,listen like you're wrong, he’s like Dom
You're a six foot four
middle aged white guy,and you're an alpha male.
You're always going to put your point forward
with vigor and excitementand huge energy.
Do that
(23:40):
and then shut the [ ] up.
Open your ears,
close your mouth,open your ears
and invite the roominto challenge.
[Jeff] Right.
And if you listen like you're wrong,
your job is toevolve the idea.
If you listen like you're right,
you're like, this is my project, my baby
and I just haveto get this out.
Right, right.
So you stop listening for feedbackand you ship regardless.
(24:01):
So I've used ita lot
to put my ideaforward with passion
and go cool, Jeff and Maryand Rodger, like
What's your view?
Right.
How would you do this?
Which persona are you thinking about?
If you owned solving this,how would you do it differently?
And by inviting them in
I get the diversity of opinionand the idea benefits.
Right, and I think you even said in one of the segments that
(24:23):
it's actually a win.
Is you win.
It’s a win if you suddenly get changed
in the new ideathat you didn't know before
and I think Andy Jassy from AWS says
great leaders are not afraid to change their mind
based on new data.
So don't dig your feet in.
Don't dig your heels in quite so deep.
But if I'm honest like
younger Dom didn't do that.
Yeah,
Younger Dom was like,I need to be right.
(24:44):
Because I thought being rightmade me smarter,
made me better, made me higher chance of promotion.
And then I certain life experiences
you’re like,
I don't need to be right, but nor can I be right all the time?
So I think one of the mostpowerful phrases I've used with
my teams in the last few years is,
I don't know
when they’re like, here's thischallenge we're up against.
How would you solve it?
I’m like, I don't know,
(25:04):
we can go solve it together
but I don't know the answer
and I'm not goingto pretend I do
because that's really dangerous.
So enabling.
Oh my goodness.
Opens up so much
when you're not afraid to just say ‘I don’t know’
Me and you between uscould list off a million leaders
that we've worked withthat would never use those words.
Right, right.
They would guess at the answerbecause they think as a leader
their job is to be right.
You’re like,no, no,
your job is to facilitate an outcome.
(25:24):
[Jeff] Right
Not to be right.
Get the most out of your people.
[Dom] Yeah.[Jeff] Yeah.
All right, well let's shift gears a littlebit and talk about Atlassian.
So you said you've been here for 12 years.
12 years, yeah.
Lot of action here on this Rovo.
Oh yeah.
So pretty exciting news.
But it's almost kind of like this, this dream
that we've always had aboutlike Google searching
inside the enterpriseto find information.
Yeah.
You guys are finally kind ofputting it in play,
(25:45):
the technology got in place.
And you've got the knowledgebase underneath, so
So talk about how,you know
you guys have approachedthe AI both internally,
but then also bringing it to market
and making it an integral part,not as a substitute for people.
Yeah, yeah.
[Jeff] But as you're trusted [Dom] An amplifier
your co, your coyour coworker actually.
It's funnywhat
part of the approach that
I've really enjoyed,it's been hard,
(26:08):
but I've really enjoyed is where like
let's not do AIfor the sake of AI.
Let's find meaningful use cases.
So what thatmake he have to do
is to stop.
We had to sit down,
go and talk to a whole lot of customers and go
what is it you're actually struggling with?
And they're like, honestly,
we have no contextabout what we’re doing
We really struggle todiscover information.
(26:30):
And you get all these use cases,all these stories and you're like,
that's a great AI use case.
If we can do thatthrough AI or magic
or a unicorn,
it doesn't matterhow you do it.
What's the problem that has to be solved?
Right, right.
And so that,
and the way agents and the agentic workforce came about
with people saying,
we have a whole of jobs where
(26:50):
we rely on humansand they're really manual jobs,
and it's quite high frictionand lots of thrashing,
lots of handoffs.
Surely there’s a better way you're like, yeah
again, let's build an agentto help you do that, right.
So what we did was we went use case.
Once you go use case,you start looking
horizontally acrossthe organization
rather than up and down.
(27:11):
So instead of optimizing the silo,
I don't want to make marketing more efficient
or salesor legal.
I don't want to makethem more efficient.
I want to make the organization more efficient,
which is horizontal.
And so everything withwith Rovo,
with Atlassian Analytics,with all of our AI ventures is to go,
how do we make teams
and teams of teams
(27:31):
working across an organization more effective?
Number one, search.Give them context, right.
If I've got the right datain front of me every morning,
I've got a better chanceof doing my job and
I'm free to do my job.
like, howgood is it
when all you have to do on the day is your job.
No politics, no reporting
[Jeff] Searching, searching, finding[Dom] No firefighting
(27:52):
Well, just the finding and like,
I know I saw that thing
[Jeff] but I can’t remember, is it a DM? Is it [Dom] Somewhere
you know, wherewhere could it possibly be, so
So I think, Annie Dean in her thing said
I forget the millionsand thousands of hours.
Like a third of the time.
People are just lookingfor information.
Yeah,
And I thought Andrew Boyagi was pretty interesting.
He was talking about the use cases for devs,
(28:12):
[Dom] Huge
saying not necessarilyfor writing code.
They're pretty good for code
But if I'm a non-English speaking person
that needs to write up a summary.
You know, just a lot of thiskind of really interesting,
kind of creative uses.
[Dom] Yeah.
I got the next greatfeature for you,
which and you're kind of half way there.
I see in thatlast session
when you openpop open your computer,
(28:32):
it says
it’s yourAI like.
Get started with AI first thing in the morning.
The next thing you need to do iswhat should I be doing.
So of the thousands of potentialtasks that I could do right now,
what's my highest leverage?
If you imagine a feature called ‘Next Best Task’
is that whatyou want?
Yes yes yes.
[Jeff] Yes[Dom] Interesting. Interesting.
(28:52):
Might be coming in ain a release there, near you
So I the reason I mention it is.
Cause that's it, right?
I'm allowed to say
this is an organizationI was working with
late last year.
Their CTO ran a pilotwith a whole of the teams
half the dev teams used AIthe other half didn’t.
He wanted to see a compare and contrast?
Original datalook really good.
The teams using AI,
(29:14):
his, the stats he got with
they were about 30%, three zero more productive.
Whatever that means is
no one's got a good wayof measuring productivity
but he found they felt more productive.
All good.
So I went back to him, I’m like,
what was the actual net benefit?
Like, what happens with that productivity?
Is it, you got better productto market faster,
is it that you got more into like,
did you make more money?
(29:35):
Like what what whathappened like
productivity ismeaningless to me.
What happened?
And he said,
give me a couple of weeksand I'll come back to you.
And he called me up and he's like,
I've got a really embarrassing answer
He said, in the teams, there were 30%more efficient because of AI.
We had a 50%increase in meetings
because people didn't know
the next best task to do.
(29:58):
[Jeff] Yeah,
So they gave them the time saving.
They didn't know what to dowith the saved time.
They filled it with the lowest value task.
[Jeff] Because that's what we want to do right[Dom] Human nature
I mean, it's really easy.Just like it just
be dumb andand delete shitty emails
that I don't need to pay attention to.
I feel like I'm busy,but it's not necessary.
It's certainly not productive.
So now when I'm working with senior execs
and they say we want to roll out AI
(30:19):
and I’m like, right.
I'm going to gift you an AI right now
that doesn't exist.
That saves all your team members
five hours a week, ten hoursa week, whatever.
What are you going to do?
And they’re like, what do you mean I'm like,
do you know,
like when I give you that savings
do you know what you as a leader,
what you’ll want to do with it.
And they’re like noI'm like right.
We need to think about that now
cause that time’sgoing to come.
(30:40):
And let's not just fill our time with stuff.
Let's genuinely fit in and fill itwith more meaningful work.
And can than mean wellness, mental health,
it could mean we shorten the working week.
It could mean we do more complex tasks.
We have more engagement in work,and we deliver more value, like
or maybe it's a combinationof all of them,
but if we don't know,we will fill it with crap.
Fill it with crap. Right?
Even get up and take a walk, right?
(31:01):
It might bethe right answer.
You've been sitting downfor three hours.
You might need a refresh.
So get back tokind of Atlassian.
Big changes.
right, used to be two CEOs.
Now there's only one
Spending a ton of money here on Formula One.
Yeah
There's a lot of tech companiesthat have little logos on formula one cars
We got abig logo
There’s not a lot that have the big logo on the top
and straight across the chest.
(31:23):
So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about
the change in the company as
it's continue to grow up and continue to evolve.
And, you know,
it’s not a little startup
with two guys working out of Sydney anymore.
It's fascinating in my 12 years,the one constant,
complete cliche, but
it's just constant change and evolution.
And sowe, we
one of the things I think we do well is
it sounds a bitweird is subtraction.
(31:45):
I think we're quite good atstopping things that used to work.
That won't work in the new version of Atlassian.
We delete them
and then we addin new experiments,
new explorations,try new ways of working,
and F1s a prime example.
If you tried that a few years ago at Atlassian
I don't thinkit would have worked.
And now we're like, actually, this is going to work.
It's enabling us to have some amazing
enterprise C-suite level conversations.
(32:08):
The thing I'm most excited about
isn't, I mean, I can't count on how many
versions of the Atlassian name’s on the car.
The thing that actually makes meexcited is the team of 40 people
that we've parachuted into Grovein Oxfordshire, into Williams,
to build how they work,
like we are changing
how the 1,100 people in Williams work every day.
(32:30):
Wow.
So we are their technology partner
and we believe thatthat will advance how
how they work,
how they work,will advance the cars
and the cars willadvance the driver
and it pushes them up the grid.
We believe that.
[Dom] And we’ll see[Jeff] And there's nothing that measures
it like Formula 1
[Dom] We will see [Jeff] in terms of marginal improvements
[Dom] Ya, we will see [Jeff] on the, you know, on the edge.
And so it's it's a real I mean,
(32:50):
originally it felt like a geek out,
but then you're like,
hang on, is there a better testbed?
If we believe that our productsand our ways of working
can amplify high performancein a team.
[Dom] F1. You know what[Jeff] Start shaving seconds, right
Let's put our nameon it and own it.
Let's, let's all in and own it.
And we're workingso closely with our team.
(33:11):
we’re even seeing,
I spent the weekend down in Melbourne
at the F1, my first F1 of the season
with the Williams team, seeing how they're now
collaborating comparedto how they were
before they were using our tools and our processes
they're like, hey, this is night and day.
I'm like, you can feel it.
Right, right
I haven't got a thermometer to measure it,
but you can feel it in how they collaborate,
(33:32):
how fast they make decisions,how fast they prototype,
how they accessdata and goals, like
how they communicate status and updates and engage and connect
all that's happening.
It's going to result in the cargetting further up the grid,
not tomorrow,but eventually.
Right.
And so seeing that live as a comparison
is absolutely beautiful.
Yeah. Wild.
So I got to ask you the real estate cycles
(33:53):
you get involved inreal estate a little bit.
You guys are building,I believe like the largest
[Jeff] wooden, you can correct me [Dom] the largest timber structure.
[Jeff] Timber structure [Dom] in the southern hemisphere
How's that going?
It's going really well.
And when is it, when is this supposed to open?
Yeah, at some point.
I think it's like 20..
So you get little bits about ithere and there
2026, 2027
I drove past it the other weekand I'm like,
How tall is it going to be?
It’s shooting up
(34:13):
It's a substantial building.
It's going to be the
well one of the biggestbuildings in the area.
It's a regeneration of an area of Sydney
that’s kind of been neglected
for a few years.
We’re there, there’s a few other tech companies going there,
we’re trying to create like our, maybe,
2025 version of Silicon Valley.
How do we geta tech hub
where we get bright minds togetherfrom different organizations,
(34:35):
where we get that spark and the friction?
How can we create space for innovation
for startupsand scale ups?
How can we use our knowledge andIP and pay it forward to others?
And how do we create a hub that
creates a second order effect of restaurants and cafes and other businesses?
[Jeff] Right.
So we're buildingthat and we're building it
in the most sustainable way we can.
We are breaking boundariesand rules along the way
(34:55):
to make it somewhere where we're like,this is groundbreaking.
[Jeff] Yeah[Dom] Like
let's not just createsomeone else's building,
let's create our vision of it so
even throughout the design process,
our sustainability team embeddedthemselves in the design process and said
here is our guardrailsof what sustainable looks like.
We're not builders,we're not architects.
But if we want a better futureand a better,
(35:16):
a better world, we have to care about the climate
so let's dothis responsibly.
And the builders are like‘You can’t do that’, and like
Let's try it.
Let's try.
So biggest surprise, biggesttakeaway in the last couple days
or something that, you know,kind of you didn't expect,
a subtlety different approach is
I think I've been warmed by
most people thatI've had a conversation with
(35:37):
haven't been challengingthe content.
They've been askingabout application.
They're like, you know what?
What you just saidmade sense
help me do that in my organization.
And I love that switch.
I feel like as a business society
we're done whinging.
I felt no, there's beenno complaints.
There's been no divisionhere this week.
There's beena lot of
I see the world differently.
(35:58):
It's not rightor wrong,
but how can we help each other progress
the thing we're trying to progress.
I feel like the world needs alittle bit of that right now.
[Jeff] Yes.
And so it's been really warming for me
that whatever the industryor the background or the role or,
I don't know, people have just come together and gone
you know, we can help each other.
Not in a weird
let's sing Kumbaya together type of way
In a genuine like,
I can help you,you can help me, so
(36:19):
after my session yesterday,
a lady came from the company came and asked for how
we spent about 20 minutestogether on a whiteboard
like, here’s some things you can try in your organization.
And then at the end of itI was like,
oh by the way, like
in 30, 60, 90 dayslet me know how you going.
She’s like, well, I was like,I'd love to know.
Yeah, that's great.
I genuinely want to knowhow you get on.
It might not work, but I’d likeeither way. I want to know.
That's super.
Well Dom,it's really a treat to,
(36:40):
to finally get to meet in person,
not separated by the Pacific Oceanand the international time line.
So congratulations to you andthe team for, for quite an event.
Mate, thanks for coming alongand joining the madness.
My pleasure.
And make sure you guys catch him on ‘Experts Unleashed’
It's a really cool podcast.
He's Dom, I'm Jeff,you're watching Work 20XX
Thanks for watching.We'll catch you next time.
Thanks for listeningon the podcast.
(37:02):
Take care.
Boom.
We're out.
You're a master at this
It better be red.
Still better be red.
Hey, Jeff Frick Here
big shout out to the podcast audience.
Thanks for listening in.
You can get show notes and transcripts at Work20XX.com
And that also has links to the videos as well.
Appreciate you listeningin on the podcast
(37:23):
Do reach out
say hello, like subscribeand smash that notification bell.
Thanks for listening.Take care. Bye bye.
All right.
In three, two, one.
Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here.
Coming to you from Anaheim.
Not the home studiofor a little something different.
I came down to theAnaheim Convention Center
right across the street from the happiest place on Earth to
to come see Atlassianand their Team ‘25 event.
I think there’s 5,000 people runningaround the convention center.
(00:21):
And we're excitedto have our next guest.
You know him as Dom Price.
He’s been on before,Dom, great to see.
What's your official title?
[Jeff] Work Futurist?[Dom] Work Futurist
I should know that.
Best made upjob ever
I should know that.
Well, so I was sitting in on your,
your session yesterday, and I have lots of great notes.
I want to jump in to you
it was all about building a great cultureright in the workplace.
(00:41):
So one of the first ones ‘TTV’
‘Time to Value’
‘Time to Value’
which is also often said ‘Time to Money’
or excuse me, ‘Time to Market’
what I wanted to sharewith you is Craig Barrett
when I worked at Intel
he said, no, no, no, it's‘Time To Money.’
Yeah.
So when you think abouttime to value, time to market,
time to money,
how do you accelerate that,help people accelerate that?
(01:02):
So the honest answer is,
I think the mistake we've made in,
in organizations recently
is when we said time to market,
we did theeasy things fast
and we left the hard things.
[Jeff] Isn’t that justthe human way?
Yeah. And so what's happened is
we've got a whole lot of thingsout to customers and then gone.
Yeah, they don't value themthey don't want them.
(01:23):
But we were fast. Right.
And so what's happening in a lot of businesses right now is
is this, this curiosity.
What do our customersactually want?
What do they value?
What will they happily hand over money for
because they get so much value from it
they're happyto spend.
So I think time to value
is like the time to money moment.
It’s like
there's no point in meshipping something
if no one'sgoing to use it.
(01:44):
[Jeff] Right.
So the difference ofthe time to value
is I have tointrinsically understand
the wants, the desires, the needs, the problems
of the person I'm delivering to,
which is different to.
Here's a backlog, I’ve shipped somethingand I'm done.
Right, right and I’m theproduct manager.
And I'm so proud of my new baby that I gave birth.
Yeah I've shipped a thing. Right.
And so time to value requires more curiosity.
(02:06):
It also requires you to work differently
across theorganization.
So instead of getting to Friday
and celebrating shipping,
you have tothen wait
two weeks, three months will go
how's the customer using the thing we gave them
and do they value it?
Right
It's a different question andoften a quite confronting answer.
Yeah, I think that'sone of the un
(02:26):
unreported benefits of a subscription model
because if you just buy in a perpetual license,
you know, maybe every year
[Jeff] you gotta justify the extra 15% [Dom] you think about it
But if you're payingevery single month,
Yep
you've got that engagement.
And it also forces us vendor side.
Forcing function
We’ve got to keep delivering
every single month.
It’s a great forcing function.
But it's funny how, essentiallyin the last like 5 or 10 years,
(02:50):
a lot of the senior leadersI've worked with, I'm like,
you've inadvertently createdso much urgency in your business
that you're busydoing stupid things.
So your urgent, but you have no purpose.
Right, right.
[Jeff] Not, It’s not a recipe for success, no.[Dom] It’s not ideal
Alright, I want to go toanother one of your topics
which is learning velocity.[Dom] This is my favorite.
And a friend of mine, Bill Schmarzo he once said
(03:13):
that scale learning is actually more powerful
than scale economics.
Yeah.
Which ispretty profound
because we know how powerfulscale economics are.
But you talk about scale learningand trying to expand it
and accelerate itand spread it out.
Share some of your thoughts about,you know, what it's all about.
So essentially just imagine
there's two types of organizations in the world.
(03:33):
One that'svery accepting
of changes happening in their environment
and aroundtheir world.
And they seethose changes.
They take insights from them,
and they use those insightsto course correct right
to stay relevant.
The second organizationis ignorant
to what's happeningoutside its four walls.
And it's like we have a planand we're doing it regardless.
(03:53):
So they have nolearning velocity.
They're notgoing to learn
because they're not listening. They're not curious.
They might ship fast,they might ship good.
They might see somethingthat seemed like a good idea,
but they've forgottento listen to the market.
They've forgot to listenoutside their four walls.
So I have a belief,
I don't care if I'm right or wrong on this one,
but I have a beliefthat learning velocity,
(04:14):
the ability to take in inside,apply it, course correct
and redeploy something different,
a different productor a different service.
That is a positive differentiatorfor any business right now,
because every industryI work with
is up againstcompetitive challenges.
And if you learn one degree fasterthan your competition,
I think youcan win.
Yeah.
So it's not
(04:35):
it's not what we've been talkingabout for a few years.
This execution muscle thateveryone was concerned about.
It's not delivery.
It's open your eyes,open your ears, open your senses.
What can you learnand how can you apply it?
[Jeff] Yeah.
The irony is,
when I talk about thisto business leaders
and when they get honest which is,sometimes over a glass of wine
and sometimes in a quiet room, they're like,
(04:55):
oh no, we have all the insights.
We do nothingwith them.
[Dom] Most businesses I work with, that’s what I mean.[Jeff] That’s even worse, right?
Most businesses, it’s not a I need more data.
It's I need more permission and freedom
to use that datato course correct.
And they’re nervousto course correct.
Because what you have to say is
the plan we built Jeffwas wrong.
(05:16):
Learning velocity means saying
the way we thought this was going to happen was wrong.
We have to admit our mistake and our
and our fragility
to forge a new path.
Yeah.
If we're never going to admit our mistake,
we're never going to learn.
Yeah. It's interesting.
I was just in Lesley Martin's.
I was looking up Lesley Martin'ssession from, Udemy.
She had said they even have one day a month
(05:36):
that they give everybodythe day off to learn,
which ispretty amazing.
And, you know, most people, you know, it’s like
here's a tool, here's a tool, he’s a tool
but we don't actuallyspend the time
to help people get the most out of the tool.
So mate, this is where theworld gets deeply ironic.
So me and you go to a whole of conferences like this and
and the average conference you go to
finds an elite sports person.
We have Jenson Buttonwe have James Vowles
(05:57):
from [Atlassian] Williams Formula 1 team.
They put them on stage
and they tell you about elite performance
in a sportsteam.
And none of us sit down and go
‘Hang on. Thereal difference is’
you spend a lot of time training
to then, do.
Right
and in business teams
we spend all of our time doingand no time training
[Jeff] Right.
So the one lessonI always take
when I listen to anelite sports person is
(06:19):
I need to invest inmy learning, my training,
because otherwise I'm justrepeating the same version of me
and I'm not improving.
Right, right.
So that one day a month.
It sounds indulgent, but you’re like
that makessense.
You've got 12 opportunities a year
to improve how you workand course correct?
Yeah, that should be the norm, like
when can we makethat the standard.
(06:40):
[Jeff] Right.
[Dom] That we all adhere to. [Jeff] Right, right
[Jeff] And how much of thatI mean
how many other projects do you have
that you invest at least that much time
[Jeff] that don’t have near the yield [Dom] Easily, yes.
don’t have near the yield.
All right, so another thing that you talked about,
is head, heart, and handsand storytelling.
And as much as it's about features and cost benefits
and trying to deliversatisfaction,
(07:01):
how do you package thatin such a way that people
are going to be more receptive to it?
And you guys even have a personwho's in charge of story telling
[Dom] I know [Jeff] You have the coolest titles of any company.
It’s funny because you'rea natural storyteller, and
and not only are youa natural storyteller,
you're great at getting other peopleto tell their story right,
which is itself an art form.
In my world at Atlassian
(07:22):
we have a whole of people that default to fact,
we have a lot of engineers,
a lot of high IQ, highly intelligent people
that see the world as
black and white, right, right or wrong.
And so when that comes to change,
many people will often say,
‘Hey Jeff, we need to change.’
And you’re like‘And?’
I'm like, well we justwe need to change,
you’re like no, no, where's the story?
(07:42):
Right.
And so the model we've used internally for a while,
with all of our teamsand even our sales teams
and our marketing teams, is,
if you imagine a world of head, heart and hands,
head is the logic.
Right?
If we make this change, we get 70% more of something, right?
Some people reallylove the numbers.
They love the logic.
The second part is the heart,the emotion.
(08:04):
When we get that 70%increase, here's how it'll feel.
And you're like, ooh, like,
now we're getting it.
It'll feel better,you'll feel faster.
You'll feel like you've got more mojo.
You'll feel more effective.
You'll feel more valuable.
You're like, ahaa,I like the feeling.
So if I do the 70,that's the feeling.
You’re like, cool.
The hands is what's the action?
I now need you to do xand y and z to achieve that.
(08:27):
What we find when we roll out this training
at Atlassianaround storytelling,
is people have one of those they default to.
So I hate to stereotype,but let's do it.
I'm not going to get fired.
Our engineers default to logic.
They want to see the 0’s and 1’s.
Right.
HR and Marketing default to heart.
How does it feel?
You’re like...
And our program manager’s are like,
give methe action.
(08:48):
Give me actionwhere’s the task?
Right.
Well, well you're like, cool
I get then you default to one
an effective storyneeds all three.
So what we're
What we're willing to do is to
package a course
And the reason we're doing this is
every single day, every leader,
every workerin Atlassian
has to influencesomeone else
to do something on their behalf
every single day.
(09:09):
And if you do thatthrough storytelling,
it's really effective.
The alternative isyou do it through favors
No business can scalethrough favors.
[Jeff] No, no, that runs out,
[Jeff] that runs out of juice pretty quickly [Dom] runs out
Jeff, can you do me a favorand run that report?
Can you do mea favor man?
Favors don't last.
But storytelling drives permanent persistent change.
Right.
So another big theme here is
(09:30):
you talked about it in your thingis the user manual.
Yeah.
And also kind of the documenting of goals.
And I think, you know,one of my favorite lines, right.
‘Assume’ makes an‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’.
And there's way too much assumption going on.
And then also making surethat those goals are aligning
to that bigger objective.
And then assomebody said,
and that's not that's not the work product
No
that's not the output of whatwe're trying to get done.
(09:51):
So share a little bit about you know,
you invest upfront in sharpening the saw
You invest in front of defining these things.
Yeah.
To get a whole lot more efficientwhen you're actually in flow.
Yeah yeah. So great.Great question.
So again imagine you're a new team forming together.
The temptation is
We've got some goalslet's start the work.
Right, the quicker we start the quicker we finish right.
And you're like maybe not.
(10:11):
So one of things we do is we say,
we say toour team well,
let's assume you've never worked together, right?
Dom, Jeff, Mary and Rajeevare going to work together.
The danger is we all assume
how each other works.
Because you work like me, right?
Surely you all work like me.
Well you don't.
You've all got different backgrounds,
different customs andcultures and rituals.
So the first thing we do is the
‘My User Manual’ exercise
(10:32):
‘My User Manual’ is
if you buy me from an electronic shop,
how do you use me?
How do you consume me?
If you buy a new TV?
Go to the user manual.
You hire a human,no user manual.
So we document it and we tell that story to each other.
Here's how I like feedback.
Here's how I communicate.
Here aremy values.
Here's how I work well.
Here are my working hours.
Here are my working conditions.
And when you hear thatyou're like, Ahh
(10:53):
you're different than me.How cool.
Right
I can work with you now.
So that's step one.
Step two is
we build asocial contract.
It's called a‘Working Agreement’
of how we're going to work together.
When are we going to meet?
How dowe meet?
What does themeeting look like?
How do we communicate?
Is it Slack? WhatsApp? Confluence? Jira?
We build all that
those rituals on purposein advance.
(11:15):
Because againI have my way of working.
You have your way.
Right.
If we glue them togetherby accident, it's really clunky.
You think I'm doing it?I think you're doing it.
We fall out.
Right, right.
So we build that social contract of
how we're going to worktogether as humans.
Then we start the work.
How do new employeeskind of take that when, you know,
they sit down and you're like,
(11:36):
Okay, it's day one.
We're so excitedfor you to join us,
now we want you to fill out this.
[Dom] Yeah
This profile about how do you like the work?
[Dom] Yeah
They must be going. What?
I've never, no one’s never asked me that before.
So they find it originally quite confronting,
then quite confusing.
And then it doesn't take longfor the penny to drop, there’s that
Ahhhhhh
I can now remember all the circumstances
(11:57):
where I didn'thave this
and how it caused thrashing, arguments,
rework, fallouts.
Not because anyonewas malicious,
Right
Because I just didn't know.
Right
So a prime example
There is someone who I workedwith a few years ago,
and we just always fell out
to the point where
we went out of our wayto jeopardize each other.
We were like, I will take you down.
(12:17):
And we've been not working well together for a while.
And one day we're in the same leadership team.
And we did the My User Manual exercise
and this lady went firstand she's like feedback.
She's like, I hate receivingfeedback in the moment
because it feels like an attack.
I like feedback after the event
in written form with an example.
I will digest it
(12:38):
and wheneverI've digested it,
I will respond to you
And I was like ‘Oh’
So then it’s my turn I’m like
I like feedback in the moment.
Right?
And if you give it meafter the event,
I feel like it's an attackbecause I can't respond.
[Dom] The, we were identical people,[Jeff] 180 degrees
but we werethe same
like every other areas of my user manual same, same.
(13:00):
So we were 95% aligned
just as humans.
But the 5% difference literallymade us hate each other.
[Jeff] Right
As employees of the same company.
And you’re like ‘ha’ so we’re like,
hang on, if we can solve that,
if we can come to a compromiseof how we do feedback,
which we did,
we then becamethe most formidable duo.
(13:21):
And it’s so bizarre because I’m like
I remember saying to this person I'm like,
I honestly have been going out ofmy way to jeopardize your career.
And they're like, oh, same.
I've been doing that to youI hate you.
And I'm like, no, I hate you.
And then you're like,you do realize
we're more alikethan we are different.
[Jeff] Right
But the one difference stops us from being effective
[Jeff] Right
Once we found outIt wasn't that we changed.
We just compromised.
(13:41):
We agreed on amutual way of working
once we had that,we're like
we're unbeatable.
Because the diversity we brought,
the challenges we brought to each other,
made us better togetherthan we were apart.
Right, right.
It's just so bizarre, right,that you can just have a
180 degree different attitude about
what's the best practicesfor feedback.
And you both can be completely right
(14:02):
[Jeff] in the way you like to take it.[Dom] We’re both right.
Okay, so another exciting thing
I want to congratulate youon your Atlassian
‘Experts Unleashed’ podcast.
[Dom] Yes. Thank you. [Jeff] Got through the first season.
So since we're talking about feedback.
I couldn't help but think ofa segment with Patty McCord
[Jeff] who specifically said [Dom] I love that human
I love it, she said, you know
I think you were talking aboutsomebody you wanted to change.
(14:23):
Maybe it was this guyand she's like,
Well did you ever tell himthat you expect him to change?
When she dropped that line on me,she broke me that day.
And the other thing that she said
was for feedbackif you give it
positive feedbackin the moment,
that person will be doing thatsame behavior later that day.
So I want to
(14:44):
I got a bunch of names of some of your guests.
I want to ask get your reaction
but let's just go ahead and start with Patty.
I mean, what an incredible human.
I've known her.
I know you've known her for a long time as well.
She's just a gift because
There’s
it's just a life experience
or a stage of life or an age or
there's somethingthat's happened to Patty
where she can look me in the eye with a smile,
(15:06):
deliver a line that completely breaks all of my foundations
but in such a kind and caring way,
because she wants meto be a better person.
Right
She just does not suffer any B.S.
And so in that example,
I was drinking winewith her one day
and having a good old bitch
and complain and whingeabout a colleague
and she just looked me in the eyeand she's like,
and how did they respondwhen you told them that?
(15:28):
And I was like,Ahhhhhhh
I haven't told them that.
She's like, ‘But you expect them to change?’
I was like, ‘Oh God, you've done it again.’
Like you've broken me.
And she just makes mea better person, but
I always have like
It’s like an AI Rovo agent
I've got a little Patty voicein the back of my head
that every now and then I'm in a situation, I'm like.
[Dom] What would Patty do?[Jeff] would Patty do
(15:49):
that’s good one.
What would Patty do?
cause it normally makes me a better person.
It normally enables meto pay it forward.
It normallymeans I
has the confrontingtough conversation
early rather than late,
and it's easierrather than harder.
And I do it through
curiosity andgenerous assumptions.
Not I want to change youor make you a better person.
(16:09):
I just want to have a chat.
So she's helped mein my career
and that episode, I loved it.
There was so many gems in there, I’m like
we can all try and be a little better at how we operate.
And she was fired up in thatshe was fired up.
[Jeff] I think, she was fired up[Dom] She's always fired up.
When I talked to hertwo years ago,
so I think she's always fired up.
All right, let's shiftgears another one.
So Andy Walshetelling this great story
(16:31):
about basically putting peopleoutside of their comfort zone.
And the specificI think he says
he takes them out into the wilderness.
[Dom] Yeah.
And watchestheir senses
basically turnback on
because as people we’re so
We have to kind of deaden everything,
[Jeff] so we can pay attention to what’s going on[Dom] We’re muted, we’re we’re
In society we’re muted andmuted and pre programmed
(16:52):
Right.
And he loves to take people outof that comfort zone, genuinely
not their like LinkedIn comfort zone,
which is a weird sort of meme,
but like genuinely outof their comfort zone.
But then show them their natural
survival instincttheir natural reactions
and just gets them to hone it and train it so
There's a few examples,he shared
There's one he sharedon the show but
the one he didn’t share on the show which is one of my favorites,
(17:15):
he took a whole lot ofelite athletes.
And one of them was a Red Bull fighter pilot
who does all the stunts,
and they've been tryingto do this specific stunt.
And they realized through all these MRI scanners,
that the thing holdingthis pilot back was fear.
So they had an assumption.
A Red Bull pilot had fear in there
Everyone has some level of fear.
(17:36):
So they had ahypothesis that
you could just manipulatethe fear response in a human
and then get them to redo the stunt.
So what they did is with this particular person,
they did the whole lot of research
and this person was petrifiedof snakes and spiders.
So they built a giant dark room,pitch black,
full of snakes and spiders.
They put all this monitoringequipment on this person.
They went, ‘You have to navigate this room’
(17:58):
and come out the other end.
It's a labyrinth. You have to get through the labyrinth
in a certain time
but you also haveto keep your heart rate
and your physiological responsesunder a certain level.
So they race throughcause it snakes and spiders.
All the levels are too high.
Do it again, do it again,do it again, do it again.
After like the eighth time
this person's just controlledall their responses.
They put themstraight in the plane
(18:20):
and they do the stunt.
That's amazing.
Now
You almost like wear it out, right?
Just wear outthe fear.
But the fear grows back, right?
Cause we adapt to our surroundings.
So all they did was say
in this false environment
I can retrain your response
and then we can swap the environment
when you're back in society thankfully
the human body that we regrow,
that response to fear otherwise.
(18:41):
Right. We'd all be mavericks.
Yeah.
Well it's just we're basically the game he plays is
his view is the brainis completely moldable,
and we can all mold our brainto be subtly different people
if we choose to.
[Jeff] If we choose to,
If we think we're hardwired,
we're rejecting the opportunityto change and improve.
Yeah, it's amazing I’ve been watching some YouTubes
some of these, deepfree diver guys
(19:02):
that go down on the string.
Yeah,
One guy, I think, can’t even remember the number?
Right, I think it waslike 160m?
It's crazy
On one breathof air
and it's like it's 4.5 minutes I mean
It’s unfathomablestuff that they do,
but, but
it’s totally.
[Jeff] getting control their of their biology.[Dom] His argument is
People think it's a physiological purely physical
and their like the role of the brain is huge in those things.
(19:24):
Yeah, yeahit's amazing.
It's why we all havea mindset coach
the mindset game.
If you're atennis player,
your mindset coachisn't helping you swing a racket,
but they're helping you mentallybe prepared for that game.
Right, right.
All right, got another one for you, Ben Crowe
Living in the gap or living in the gain
[Dom] I[Jeff] What do you say?
(19:44):
So I and Ben was episode one. you know
I've knownhim for years.
He talked to me about thatthe week before I got married.
And I remember lying in bed with my now wife.
And I was like,
just had this conversation with Ben,
something weneed to talk about.
She’s like what?And I was like,
so instead of me telling her,I'll just showed her the clip.
And I'm like,
how much of what we do
(20:05):
do you think is in the gap or the gain?
So explain it to our listeners that missed that episode
What's theessence of the.
A simplification.
There's two ways of living life.
If you're living lifein the gap,
you're permanently looking at what you've not got.
And then when you.
So, I'm a public speaker
and I do an eventwith 5,000 people, I'm like
five thousand’s not enoughI wanted ten thousand.
(20:27):
You did an event with 10,000 and you’re like
it’s not enough, I want to crackAmerica. You crack America.
It’s not enough, I wanna, it’s like
you always want more
because you're living in this gap.
And if you're living in the gap,
you forget to recognize and reward your success.
Right, it's you're literally spiraling down.
Yeah.
[Jeff] Because you’re never achieve [Dom] Whatever you achieve
[Jeff] You're never achieving.[Dom] You're never achieving.
You're nevergetting there.
I've always confused that with ambition.
(20:50):
Right, so I had a different word for it,which is the wrong word,
because then when,when Ben was like,
if you're living in the gain,you reflect back.
You look back over a yearover a quarter, over a few years,
and you celebratewhat you've achieved,
[Dom] how you did it,[Jeff] What you accomplished
the things that went wrong,the things that went well.
And he's like, and I'm like,
but then you're not ambitious.
He says no, no, no,you're still ambitious,
but you're rewarding and recognizing yourself for what you've done.
(21:13):
And you're then backing yourselfto achieve the next thing.
But you're doing it for you
not for some weird extrinsic motivator
[Jeff] Right, right.
So whether I have 5,000 people or 10,000 in an audience
he’s like, why does that matter to you?
And you're like,it doesn't.
Right.
He’s like if fifty peoplehear your message
and they change howthey work, are you happy?
And I'm like, yeah.
He’s like yeah.
(21:33):
[Jeff] That's great.
So the gap
is this notion that you're chasingthe never ending dream.
The gain is going,you're still really ambitious,
but you're accepting that
you aren't defined by your success.
You're defined by how you live life, your morals,
your values, your happiness,your relationships.
Not by how many peoplelike your Facebook post.
(21:53):
Right.
All right, another one for you.
I'm just going to drop the name
and you tell me firstthing comes to mind.
Genevieve Bell
Genevieve is
someone who inspired meto understand AI
from a human
societal standpoint
and who showed methat there is a blueprint
for how we can do this morally right.
(22:15):
If we look at the past.
She has researched cultures
that are 60,000 years old
to understand how technologychanges positively impacted,
and negativelyimpacted society.
I fear that some people thinkthat AI is a brand new thing
and they don't realize it's
just another technologyadvancement.
Right, right.
Her blueprint for how we can do this,
(22:37):
equitably, fairly,inclusively, and with morals
is written down in therefor us to use if we choose.
Oh, we can go make all the samemistakes we made in the past.
[Jeff] Let's hope we don't.[Dom] Let's hope we don't.
Yeah, I saw Social Dilemma.Scared the piss out of me.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, now this is one of yours,
although I think you stole it from somebody
or somebody gave it to you.
Argue like you're right.
(22:57):
[Dom] Listen like you're wrong.[Jeff] Listen like you're wrong.
That's great. How can you do both?
Really easy. I wasn't doing both.
I used to argue like I'm rightand listen like I’m right
In which case you listento the confirmation,
or you listen to the person andyou're like, cute, you're wrong.
It's just a matter of timetil you realize you're wrong
because I'm right.
I got it from Dan Pinkat the same time, he gave me,
(23:19):
a challengewhich was,
less conversion, more conversation.
That's a great one.
And it's the same flavor, right?
With argue like you're right,listen like you're wrong, he’s like Dom
You're a six foot four
middle aged white guy,and you're an alpha male.
You're always going to put your point forward
with vigor and excitementand huge energy.
Do that
(23:40):
and then shut the [ ] up.
Open your ears,
close your mouth,open your ears
and invite the roominto challenge.
[Jeff] Right.
And if you listen like you're wrong,
your job is toevolve the idea.
If you listen like you're right,
you're like, this is my project, my baby
and I just haveto get this out.
Right, right.
So you stop listening for feedbackand you ship regardless.
(24:01):
So I've used ita lot
to put my ideaforward with passion
and go cool, Jeff and Maryand Rodger, like
What's your view?
Right.
How would you do this?
Which persona are you thinking about?
If you owned solving this,how would you do it differently?
And by inviting them in
I get the diversity of opinionand the idea benefits.
Right, and I think you even said in one of the segments that
(24:23):
it's actually a win.
Is you win.
It’s a win if you suddenly get changed
in the new ideathat you didn't know before
and I think Andy Jassy from AWS says
great leaders are not afraid to change their mind
based on new data.
So don't dig your feet in.
Don't dig your heels in quite so deep.
But if I'm honest like
younger Dom didn't do that.
Yeah,
Younger Dom was like,I need to be right.
(24:44):
Because I thought being rightmade me smarter,
made me better, made me higher chance of promotion.
And then I certain life experiences
you’re like,
I don't need to be right, but nor can I be right all the time?
So I think one of the mostpowerful phrases I've used with
my teams in the last few years is,
I don't know
when they’re like, here's thischallenge we're up against.
How would you solve it?
I’m like, I don't know,
(25:04):
we can go solve it together
but I don't know the answer
and I'm not goingto pretend I do
because that's really dangerous.
So enabling.
Oh my goodness.
Opens up so much
when you're not afraid to just say ‘I don’t know’
Me and you between uscould list off a million leaders
that we've worked withthat would never use those words.
Right, right.
They would guess at the answerbecause they think as a leader
their job is to be right.
You’re like,no, no,
your job is to facilitate an outcome.
(25:24):
[Jeff] Right
Not to be right.
Get the most out of your people.
[Dom] Yeah.[Jeff] Yeah.
All right, well let's shift gears a littlebit and talk about Atlassian.
So you said you've been here for 12 years.
12 years, yeah.
Lot of action here on this Rovo.
Oh yeah.
So pretty exciting news.
But it's almost kind of like this, this dream
that we've always had aboutlike Google searching
inside the enterpriseto find information.
Yeah.
You guys are finally kind ofputting it in play,
(25:45):
the technology got in place.
And you've got the knowledgebase underneath, so
So talk about how,you know
you guys have approachedthe AI both internally,
but then also bringing it to market
and making it an integral part,not as a substitute for people.
Yeah, yeah.
[Jeff] But as you're trusted [Dom] An amplifier
your co, your coyour coworker actually.
It's funnywhat
part of the approach that
I've really enjoyed,it's been hard,
(26:08):
but I've really enjoyed is where like
let's not do AIfor the sake of AI.
Let's find meaningful use cases.
So what thatmake he have to do
is to stop.
We had to sit down,
go and talk to a whole lot of customers and go
what is it you're actually struggling with?
And they're like, honestly,
we have no contextabout what we’re doing
We really struggle todiscover information.
(26:30):
And you get all these use cases,all these stories and you're like,
that's a great AI use case.
If we can do thatthrough AI or magic
or a unicorn,
it doesn't matterhow you do it.
What's the problem that has to be solved?
Right, right.
And so that,
and the way agents and the agentic workforce came about
with people saying,
we have a whole of jobs where
(26:50):
we rely on humansand they're really manual jobs,
and it's quite high frictionand lots of thrashing,
lots of handoffs.
Surely there’s a better way you're like, yeah
again, let's build an agentto help you do that, right.
So what we did was we went use case.
Once you go use case,you start looking
horizontally acrossthe organization
rather than up and down.
(27:11):
So instead of optimizing the silo,
I don't want to make marketing more efficient
or salesor legal.
I don't want to makethem more efficient.
I want to make the organization more efficient,
which is horizontal.
And so everything withwith Rovo,
with Atlassian Analytics,with all of our AI ventures is to go,
how do we make teams
and teams of teams
(27:31):
working across an organization more effective?
Number one, search.Give them context, right.
If I've got the right datain front of me every morning,
I've got a better chanceof doing my job and
I'm free to do my job.
like, howgood is it
when all you have to do on the day is your job.
No politics, no reporting
[Jeff] Searching, searching, finding[Dom] No firefighting
(27:52):
Well, just the finding and like,
I know I saw that thing
[Jeff] but I can’t remember, is it a DM? Is it [Dom] Somewhere
you know, wherewhere could it possibly be, so
So I think, Annie Dean in her thing said
I forget the millionsand thousands of hours.
Like a third of the time.
People are just lookingfor information.
Yeah,
And I thought Andrew Boyagi was pretty interesting.
He was talking about the use cases for devs,
(28:12):
[Dom] Huge
saying not necessarilyfor writing code.
They're pretty good for code
But if I'm a non-English speaking person
that needs to write up a summary.
You know, just a lot of thiskind of really interesting,
kind of creative uses.
[Dom] Yeah.
I got the next greatfeature for you,
which and you're kind of half way there.
I see in thatlast session
when you openpop open your computer,
(28:32):
it says
it’s yourAI like.
Get started with AI first thing in the morning.
The next thing you need to do iswhat should I be doing.
So of the thousands of potentialtasks that I could do right now,
what's my highest leverage?
If you imagine a feature called ‘Next Best Task’
is that whatyou want?
Yes yes yes.
[Jeff] Yes[Dom] Interesting. Interesting.
(28:52):
Might be coming in ain a release there, near you
So I the reason I mention it is.
Cause that's it, right?
I'm allowed to say
this is an organizationI was working with
late last year.
Their CTO ran a pilotwith a whole of the teams
half the dev teams used AIthe other half didn’t.
He wanted to see a compare and contrast?
Original datalook really good.
The teams using AI,
(29:14):
his, the stats he got with
they were about 30%, three zero more productive.
Whatever that means is
no one's got a good wayof measuring productivity
but he found they felt more productive.
All good.
So I went back to him, I’m like,
what was the actual net benefit?
Like, what happens with that productivity?
Is it, you got better productto market faster,
is it that you got more into like,
did you make more money?
(29:35):
Like what what whathappened like
productivity ismeaningless to me.
What happened?
And he said,
give me a couple of weeksand I'll come back to you.
And he called me up and he's like,
I've got a really embarrassing answer
He said, in the teams, there were 30%more efficient because of AI.
We had a 50%increase in meetings
because people didn't know
the next best task to do.
(29:58):
[Jeff] Yeah,
So they gave them the time saving.
They didn't know what to dowith the saved time.
They filled it with the lowest value task.
[Jeff] Because that's what we want to do right[Dom] Human nature
I mean, it's really easy.Just like it just
be dumb andand delete shitty emails
that I don't need to pay attention to.
I feel like I'm busy,but it's not necessary.
It's certainly not productive.
So now when I'm working with senior execs
and they say we want to roll out AI
(30:19):
and I’m like, right.
I'm going to gift you an AI right now
that doesn't exist.
That saves all your team members
five hours a week, ten hoursa week, whatever.
What are you going to do?
And they’re like, what do you mean I'm like,
do you know,
like when I give you that savings
do you know what you as a leader,
what you’ll want to do with it.
And they’re like noI'm like right.
We need to think about that now
cause that time’sgoing to come.
(30:40):
And let's not just fill our time with stuff.
Let's genuinely fit in and fill itwith more meaningful work.
And can than mean wellness, mental health,
it could mean we shorten the working week.
It could mean we do more complex tasks.
We have more engagement in work,and we deliver more value, like
or maybe it's a combinationof all of them,
but if we don't know,we will fill it with crap.
Fill it with crap. Right?
Even get up and take a walk, right?
(31:01):
It might bethe right answer.
You've been sitting downfor three hours.
You might need a refresh.
So get back tokind of Atlassian.
Big changes.
right, used to be two CEOs.
Now there's only one
Spending a ton of money here on Formula One.
Yeah
There's a lot of tech companiesthat have little logos on formula one cars
We got abig logo
There’s not a lot that have the big logo on the top
and straight across the chest.
(31:23):
So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about
the change in the company as
it's continue to grow up and continue to evolve.
And, you know,
it’s not a little startup
with two guys working out of Sydney anymore.
It's fascinating in my 12 years,the one constant,
complete cliche, but
it's just constant change and evolution.
And sowe, we
one of the things I think we do well is
it sounds a bitweird is subtraction.
(31:45):
I think we're quite good atstopping things that used to work.
That won't work in the new version of Atlassian.
We delete them
and then we addin new experiments,
new explorations,try new ways of working,
and F1s a prime example.
If you tried that a few years ago at Atlassian
I don't thinkit would have worked.
And now we're like, actually, this is going to work.
It's enabling us to have some amazing
enterprise C-suite level conversations.
(32:08):
The thing I'm most excited about
isn't, I mean, I can't count on how many
versions of the Atlassian name’s on the car.
The thing that actually makes meexcited is the team of 40 people
that we've parachuted into Grovein Oxfordshire, into Williams,
to build how they work,
like we are changing
how the 1,100 people in Williams work every day.
(32:30):
Wow.
So we are their technology partner
and we believe thatthat will advance how
how they work,
how they work,will advance the cars
and the cars willadvance the driver
and it pushes them up the grid.
We believe that.
[Dom] And we’ll see[Jeff] And there's nothing that measures
it like Formula 1
[Dom] We will see [Jeff] in terms of marginal improvements
[Dom] Ya, we will see [Jeff] on the, you know, on the edge.
And so it's it's a real I mean,
(32:50):
originally it felt like a geek out,
but then you're like,
hang on, is there a better testbed?
If we believe that our productsand our ways of working
can amplify high performancein a team.
[Dom] F1. You know what[Jeff] Start shaving seconds, right
Let's put our nameon it and own it.
Let's, let's all in and own it.
And we're workingso closely with our team.
(33:11):
we’re even seeing,
I spent the weekend down in Melbourne
at the F1, my first F1 of the season
with the Williams team, seeing how they're now
collaborating comparedto how they were
before they were using our tools and our processes
they're like, hey, this is night and day.
I'm like, you can feel it.
Right, right
I haven't got a thermometer to measure it,
but you can feel it in how they collaborate,
(33:32):
how fast they make decisions,how fast they prototype,
how they accessdata and goals, like
how they communicate status and updates and engage and connect
all that's happening.
It's going to result in the cargetting further up the grid,
not tomorrow,but eventually.
Right.
And so seeing that live as a comparison
is absolutely beautiful.
Yeah. Wild.
So I got to ask you the real estate cycles
(33:53):
you get involved inreal estate a little bit.
You guys are building,I believe like the largest
[Jeff] wooden, you can correct me [Dom] the largest timber structure.
[Jeff] Timber structure [Dom] in the southern hemisphere
How's that going?
It's going really well.
And when is it, when is this supposed to open?
Yeah, at some point.
I think it's like 20..
So you get little bits about ithere and there
2026, 2027
I drove past it the other weekand I'm like,
How tall is it going to be?
It’s shooting up
(34:13):
It's a substantial building.
It's going to be the
well one of the biggestbuildings in the area.
It's a regeneration of an area of Sydney
that’s kind of been neglected
for a few years.
We’re there, there’s a few other tech companies going there,
we’re trying to create like our, maybe,
2025 version of Silicon Valley.
How do we geta tech hub
where we get bright minds togetherfrom different organizations,
(34:35):
where we get that spark and the friction?
How can we create space for innovation
for startupsand scale ups?
How can we use our knowledge andIP and pay it forward to others?
And how do we create a hub that
creates a second order effect of restaurants and cafes and other businesses?
[Jeff] Right.
So we're buildingthat and we're building it
in the most sustainable way we can.
We are breaking boundariesand rules along the way
(34:55):
to make it somewhere where we're like,this is groundbreaking.
[Jeff] Yeah[Dom] Like
let's not just createsomeone else's building,
let's create our vision of it so
even throughout the design process,
our sustainability team embeddedthemselves in the design process and said
here is our guardrailsof what sustainable looks like.
We're not builders,we're not architects.
But if we want a better futureand a better,
(35:16):
a better world, we have to care about the climate
so let's dothis responsibly.
And the builders are like‘You can’t do that’, and like
Let's try it.
Let's try.
So biggest surprise, biggesttakeaway in the last couple days
or something that, you know,kind of you didn't expect,
a subtlety different approach is
I think I've been warmed by
most people thatI've had a conversation with
(35:37):
haven't been challengingthe content.
They've been askingabout application.
They're like, you know what?
What you just saidmade sense
help me do that in my organization.
And I love that switch.
I feel like as a business society
we're done whinging.
I felt no, there's beenno complaints.
There's been no divisionhere this week.
There's beena lot of
I see the world differently.
(35:58):
It's not rightor wrong,
but how can we help each other progress
the thing we're trying to progress.
I feel like the world needs alittle bit of that right now.
[Jeff] Yes.
And so it's been really warming for me
that whatever the industryor the background or the role or,
I don't know, people have just come together and gone
you know, we can help each other.
Not in a weird
let's sing Kumbaya together type of way
In a genuine like,
I can help you,you can help me, so
(36:19):
after my session yesterday,
a lady came from the company came and asked for how
we spent about 20 minutestogether on a whiteboard
like, here’s some things you can try in your organization.
And then at the end of itI was like,
oh by the way, like
in 30, 60, 90 dayslet me know how you going.
She’s like, well, I was like,I'd love to know.
Yeah, that's great.
I genuinely want to knowhow you get on.
It might not work, but I’d likeeither way. I want to know.
That's super.
Well Dom,it's really a treat to,
(36:40):
to finally get to meet in person,
not separated by the Pacific Oceanand the international time line.
So congratulations to you andthe team for, for quite an event.
Mate, thanks for coming alongand joining the madness.
My pleasure.
And make sure you guys catch him on ‘Experts Unleashed’
It's a really cool podcast.
He's Dom, I'm Jeff,you're watching Work 20XX
Thanks for watching.We'll catch you next time.
Thanks for listeningon the podcast.
(37:02):
Take care.
Boom.
We're out.
You're a master at this
It better be red.
Still better be red.
Hey, Jeff Frick Here
big shout out to the podcast audience.
Thanks for listening in.
You can get show notes and transcripts at Work20XX.com
And that also has links to the videos as well.
Appreciate you listeningin on the podcast
(37:23):
Do reach out
say hello, like subscribeand smash that notification bell.
Thanks for listening.Take care. Bye bye.
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