July 7, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of Work Besties Who Podcast, Jess and Claude sit down with Athena Desai—a holistic trauma specialist, spiritual coach, and former NPR journalist—who shares her transformational journey from acupuncture and Eastern medicine to soulful, whole-person healing.
Together, they explore the power of embracing your true self, the role of emotional wellness at work, and how navigating difficult conversations with compassion can transform professional and personal relationships.
What You’ll Learn:
- How embracing authenticity leads to personal growth
- Athena’s shift from traditional medicine to holistic healing
- Why self-awareness is essential for work-life balance
- The role of acupuncture in emotional and energetic health
- The power of connection, spirituality, and support systems
- Tips for navigating difficult work conversations with grace
Whether you’re seeking clarity, calm, or deeper connection, this episode offers a warm, real conversation on what it means to live—and lead—with intention.
🔑 Keywords: authenticity, holistic healing, self-discovery, emotional wellness, coaching, acupuncture, self-care, work relationships, spiritual growth
Learn more about Athena Desai here:
Website - https://www.soulfulhealingandcouncil.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/soulfulhealingandcouncil/
LinkedIn = https://www.linkedin.com/in/athena-desai-2b0b789/
You can watch the full episode on Youtube
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Please rate, comment and provide suggestions for upcoming episodes
Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:00):
Have you ever wondered how embracing your true self can
lead to profound healing andpersonal growth?
Today we have the privilege ofspeaking with Athena Desai, a
woman whose life journeyembodies resilience,
authenticity and transformation.
From her early experiences as afirst-generation Asian American
to her diverse roles injournalism holistic healing.
(00:23):
Diverse roles in journalismholistic healing music Her story
is a true testament of thepower of Embracing's one
multifaceted identity.
Claude (00:31):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:39):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry Work besties.
So welcome Athena.
Athena Desai (00:51):
Thank you so much to both of you.
If you wouldn't mind kicking offby giving a little bit about
who you are, yeah, I ask myselfthat almost every day what are
you doing and how did you get it?
It's been a very serpentinepath, as you know a little bit
about.
I think it started with notreally knowing and I love to say
(01:15):
that because there's a lot ofpeople out there who are like I
know, or I have to know, thatI'm going to do this thing and
it's going to turn out that way,and that really was never what
happened for me.
My parents wanted me to be adoctor.
They're both doctors, they comefrom families of doctors.
It's an Asian American thing inmany, many communities but I
always loved music and writingthose were my pretty core
(01:40):
passions and trying to figureout why people did what they did
, and that was a constantquestion.
So in college I choseanthropology because it sort of
allowed me to do all of thosethings.
Yeah, and in the vein of sortof checking out what I didn't
(02:00):
feel we were telling the rightstories about, I ended up
working in a prison my senioryear.
I went to Cuba my junior yearand all of that sort of pointed
me in this direction ofauthentic stories and there were
a lot of stories in the newsabout crime and prisons.
But I knew we were missingsomething and there were other
(02:23):
narratives that needed to comeinto play, and so I ended up
getting an internship at NPR,which is not what they wanted at
first, but I just kept bangingon the door until they let me in
and absolutely fell in lovewith radio.
My first official job after myinternship was the editorial
assistant for the 2000 electionsunit, which I just devoured.
(02:49):
I mean, what an exciting,exciting time to be in
Washington and working in newspolitics.
But along the way with news, Iended up getting really, really
unwell.
I'm very mission driven and soI was so used to throwing myself
at everything 100,000%, and myhealth had always been really
good up until a certain point.
(03:11):
But when I moved to Bostonparticularly, I could not ignore
what my body was telling me.
It was really profoundlyunhappy.
I had to take a pretty bigmental, emotional pause in the
middle of one of the biggestnews years in Boston ever and
say am I doing the right thinghere?
What's my chance of asustainable career?
(03:32):
To maintain my health duringall of that I was getting
acupuncture and taking Chineseherbs.
I didn't realize it at first,but just slowly over time it
really started to influence mythinking about balance and being
rooted in something that wasactually healthy for me, so
(03:56):
that's what I turned towards.
I became an acupuncturist andan herbalist acupuncturist and
an herbalist.
Jess (04:08):
For those that have never had acupuncture, I think it'd be
good for them to understandwhat it is the process.
And how did you then go frombeing a patient to this is now
your life.
Athena Desai (04:14):
Yeah, I'll work backwards here.
Ultimately, what felt the worstabout how things were going was
how out of balance I was and mylife was.
All I did was work essentially,and I knew that I needed more,
even though I loved my work.
I was super passionate about mywork.
(04:34):
My first acupuncture has taughtme so much about the medicine
and what happens.
There are many different styles,but typically you're going in
with some issues, problems,complaints, I have found over
the years I've been doing it for12, 13 years now and they can
be very amorphous.
(04:54):
People show up often at the endof a road where Western
medicine really hasn't helped,or they have a thing that they
can't put a name to.
They don't have a diagnosis foryou.
Sit with your practitioner andthey'll take your pulse and look
at your tongue, maybe palpateyour belly all of these
diagnostic tools.
They're trying to figure outwhat's happening in the universe
of you and why this ishappening to you in this moment.
(05:17):
So you get to show up just asyou are every session, but it
also works cumulatively.
So you're getting better everysession, but it also works
cumulatively.
So you're getting better.
Your systems are adjusting andyou're gaining a sense of
calibration the whole time,which is pretty phenomenal,
because you end up being yourown practitioner in some ways.
Once you get to a stable pointwhere your issue has either
(05:40):
resolved completely, you're ableto function with it going on in
a totally different way, thenyou can ask yourself what do I
need to eat for this to be inbalance, for me to feel good?
How do I need to think?
What does my movement during myday look like?
How am I steering this ship?
Jess (06:03):
You learn a lot about yourself through the process,
does that organically come up inthe meetings, or is that
something that was more?
You coming with?
That kind of linking ofunderstanding of things in your
body were now becoming morebalanced and you're now trying
to figure out what are thoseother next steps.
Athena Desai (06:19):
It sort of depends on the patient and the
practitioner.
Some practitioners don't talk alot about what's happening and
it is a whole different sort oflanguage and way of thinking,
opening.
I mean, it's all aboutreadjusting your own energy and
your own authentic sources ofhealth and the way that those
sources connect with theultimate source of energy and
(06:42):
spirit.
Then you start opening tothings, you start noticing more
and over time it does become alittle bit harder to be like.
Every time I eat all of myplate of dessert, I know that it
doesn't feel that good.
Maybe I need half of it, ormaybe it's once a week, right.
You start to kind of feel intowhat works best for you.
Claude (07:02):
My understanding, in acupuncture you have the needles
and you put it in a certainspecific place in your body,
depending on what you're hurting.
I mean, I did this back inFrance.
Walk us through.
What are those particularpressure points that make
(07:24):
everything go and get better?
Athena Desai (07:28):
There are many points on the body which are
actually sort of doorways alongmeridians or paths of energy,
and those paths are sort ofgoverned by the organs in
Chinese medicine.
In Chinese medicine everythinghas layers, so the organs all
(07:48):
have their own roles andresponsibilities in terms of
what they govern and help us tolearn in our lives.
Take the liver, and in someways it can match up with a
Western allopathic definition ofliver functions.
But also liver has to do withanger, frustration, bitter
resentment on one end of thespectrum of the emotions and
(08:10):
your lessons, and then on theother end there's creativity,
vision, leadership, compassion.
So we talk about virtues andvices, but just sort of the
other end of the spectrum ofwhat the liver is in charge of.
So you can come in.
Sometimes you will feel likephysical pain or discomfort
where the liver actually is.
(08:31):
Other times you come in and youhave TMJ, your jaw is super
tight, grinding your teeth atnight, or your tendons and your
ligaments are really tight andyou keep injuring yourself as
you're exercising.
We start to assess what's theprimary set of factors here and
then we put together thecombination of points along
(08:51):
those pathways that tip thescales.
It's a very empowering medicinebecause ultimately I'm not
putting anything in you ortaking anything out right that's
material.
Out right, that's material.
It's all energy that your bodyhas a lot of wisdom about how to
(09:11):
balance.
I'm a bit of a minimalist.
I do the least amount possibleand I'm not currently practicing
acupuncture.
I'm pivoting the principles ofthe medicine to work in my
coaching, which I can do fromanywhere, and it does work.
There's so much wisdom in themedicine.
It's so incredibly elegant andprofound, so I'm trying to
translate.
Jess (09:31):
The acupuncture itself is helpful.
So help us understand how yougot from the more medical of the
acupuncture for the needles tonow the discussions and the
relationship aspect of it.
Athena Desai (09:42):
I think it's my connection to spirit and
spirituality that's alwaysdriven it.
I like the tenet of teachingsomeone to fish versus just
giving them a fish.
So I've always practiced inthat way.
The cosmology, the philosophy,the principles, those translate
(10:05):
very well into our emotionallives, our psycho-spiritual
lives.
So, even though there's nocorporeal body necessarily, even
the most basic principles arereally super helpful Balance,
flow, authenticity.
There is a saying if you're notyourself, you're sick.
(10:26):
In Chinese medicine, if you'renot well, there's a place in
your life where you're not beingyou.
That's a tough one to take on,but it's definitely interesting.
Jess (10:38):
Now that you've shifted into more of the relationship
portion of it.
Let's say, your work bestie ishaving challenges.
What are some things?
Maybe you would be working withthe person who maybe is
chatting to you about a workbestie.
Athena Desai (10:54):
Yeah, I've thought a lot about all the
conversations I've had over theyears with work besties, and
I've cherished them.
My goodness, we cannot survivewithout them.
Jess (11:06):
Right, we agree.
Athena Desai (11:09):
I do think there can be challenges, even in the
listening.
This is where some of thoseprinciples it'll be fun to kind
of play with them and see ifthey make any sense in this
space.
So know thyself right that's apretty widespread spiritual
principle, and I think there issomething about regularly
(11:31):
cultivating and checking in withyour authentic self, where you
can really be getting what yourauthentic needs and desires are.
Particularly in high stressmission driven environments, we
can really get pulled off of ourauthentic needs and desires
(11:52):
pretty quickly.
A lot happens in the amorphousspace where there are
expectations of us that maybehaven't been made totally clear.
There are places where we needto make agreements about what we
do and don't do that aren'ttotally clear.
There are ways in which we'vebeen carrying too heavy of a
(12:13):
load or doing too much work thanwe can actually bear, which is
kind of the definition of stressright.
It's like more load than thesystem can handle.
Often we don't communicateabout that and we're sort of
silently carrying it.
One thing that acupuncture hasreally taught me, and the
primary one, is our relationshipwith ourself right, and I think
(12:34):
that's one that we tend toforget and I have seen with
clients and patients.
When you really start to groundin, that inevitably you'll have
to be standing in fullresponsibility for yourself and
your actions.
I know it sounds like a bigdeal, but it is sort of the most
empowering place that you cancome from when we're in
(12:58):
ecosystems.
If we're not working from thatplace, we can really quickly
slide into blame and makingpeople wrong and doing this sort
of indirect dance around thethings that actually have to be
dealt with, which are oftengoing to come up in very
(13:19):
difficult conversations.
We don't have very forgivingcultural background for
difficult conversations.
Claude (13:26):
I admire to go a bit more into the difficult
conversation.
So do you mean difficultconversation within work besties
Like?
What do you mean by that there?
Athena Desai (13:36):
could be difficult conversations amongst your
intimates, people that you love,your actual besties.
This happened a lot to me innews, where your besties are the
people who will tell you what'shappening right for them and in
the workplace and you end upkind of doing a lot of listening
and processing and supportingand suggesting.
Jess (13:59):
I think, when it comes to work besties, they leverage each
other when they want to havethose difficult conversations
with other people.
There is an element of you wantto make sure your work bestie
is helpful and supportive andproviding that way to do it for
you, not for them, which thatcan be a difficult conversation
in and of itself.
But then there's also times andI think Claude and I can test
(14:22):
to it where we walk into asituation where we've had to
have difficult conversationswith each other and I know when
I prepare for those difficultconversations I sometimes get
anxiety or I get like a littlestressed.
Leveraging some of the holisticelements of what you do for the
acupuncturist, I would thinkthere's ways to help work
(14:44):
besties when it's somebody moreclose, somebody that you really
have a care and want to beupfront with the person, coach
the person but at the same timebe respectful.
Athena Desai (14:54):
I love this.
Yeah, I think one really greatplace to start is naming the
things.
Sometimes we just launch into aconversation and we have like a
verbal vomit or we really needto do this thing.
We're venting, but then ourfriend thinks we might need a
solution.
There's a lot of power inpausing and asking or being the
(15:17):
person to say you know what Ineed right now.
I just need to vent for fiveminutes, that's all.
Can you just listen to me?
And that is opening up a chancefor the other person to have
agency too, because some fiveminutes you can't, you're
actually not available for that.
I have a pretty big advocacy nowfor checking in again with your
authentic needs, because that'sreally where we show up best
(15:39):
and where we give the most.
So of course, you love thisperson and you want to show up
for them and listen to them.
But this notion of balance andcalibration is dynamic.
Every moment is different,every day is different and
you're really checking in withsomeone, sometimes again in
pretty high stress situations,sometimes not, but that pause is
(16:01):
pretty important and thecheck-in.
I also have become a pretty bigadvocate for nervous system
regulation.
Sometimes our friends helpregulate our systems.
Everything is energy.
That's another thing that welearned from acupuncture.
So, especially when you'reintimate with someone, your
fields are merging right and soyou can pick up someone else's
(16:24):
energy.
Things that happened to themare still in their field.
They can have strings to energythat you end up taking on.
They can have strings to energythat you end up taking on.
It doesn't have to happen thatway, but it's enough for us to
again, sort of like, turntowards our own calibration and
make sure we're beingresponsible about what we're
communicating and also how we'reshowing up.
Claude (16:45):
You said before you haven't calibrated your nervous
system, how do people know whatto do to go?
Athena Desai (16:54):
to that state.
Great question, and how do youdo those things in?
Claude (16:58):
the work environment.
Jess (17:00):
I know I need to.
How do I do it?
Athena Desai (17:03):
Well, I'd love to hear a little bit more actually
about how you know you need toand there are always somatic
clues, right Like, our bodiesare pretty wise and they're
pretty much always telling ussomething.
Sometimes, when you're in workmode, you're not really
listening.
Claude (17:17):
but pain, discomfort shortness of breath, difficulty
breathing right.
Athena Desai (17:29):
One of my favorite parts of the calibration system
is we start listening better.
Let's say we do know.
Oh, I feel so anxious.
I have all this nervous energy.
When you tune in enough, youmight even sense I feel like I
need to shake or I feel like Ineed to run for a mile or
something.
I have very often counseledpeople to take a bathroom break.
(17:50):
If that's like the best thatyou can do, Just sneak off for
it, Like no one really bothersyou in the bathroom, Just get
into a stall and sit and breathe.
Breathing is one of the fastestways, if not the fastest, most
effective way, to change yourstate of energy and regulate
your nervous system.
(18:11):
And if we're walking or alive,that's available to us.
Right, and I do think we needprivate moments.
Sometimes we don't all have anoffice where we can shut the
door, and that's my firstemergency go-to is the bathroom.
All movement moves energy, soif you need to step outside even
for five minutes, take a quickwalk around the block.
(18:33):
As we're checking in withourselves, let's say we
regularly talk to a work bestieand we regularly dump things on
them or have them co-regulate orhelp us to regulate.
There may be some ways thatyour body isn't.
It might be not exactly whatyou need, but it's a habit.
I would kind of advocate fordoing your best to slow down and
(18:57):
ask yourself what do I reallyreally need right now?
Jess (19:01):
Is it helping both of you right?
Because to your point, likejust dumping on somebody, I
could just be now passing mynegative energy over to Claude
and being like you dig, that'snot really nice.
Claude (19:15):
And it also becomes a codependency actually, that you
cannot regulate yourself withoutthe other person.
So you don't learn, becausethat's what work besties do.
Sometimes you just want to bethe other person, but that's
where, which is because that'swhy we are there.
But you have to learn also howto do that.
Jess (19:41):
But I think even just like athena's little hack there on
making it a little bit moreestablished as to what you're
doing.
Like I am just venting, I I amnot seeking confirmation, I'm
not seeking guidance, coaching.
Your response probably is alittle bit better than just
dumping, because the immediatereaction for you would be like
(20:03):
what can I take away from you,what can I help, versus doing
what is needed to the otherperson.
And it might get to the pointwhere at some point you turn
around to your work breasty andsay, hey, I can't take it
anymore.
Claude (20:13):
Stop.
We did that, if you remember,jess.
We were in the three-way and atone point, you left because I
couldn't anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
Athena Desai (20:26):
Yeah, I mean, particularly with close
relationships, there is anopportunity to actually set
agreements about it that aresort of longer term right.
You can always have the in themoment pause and conversation.
Nothing is ever perfect, so wecan all forgive ourselves for
forgetting or not doing it, butwhen you do have an established
(20:48):
relationship, you can actuallylay out agreements.
I realized that regularly atwork, particularly at lunchtime.
I need my own space, so I'mgoing to be a little less
available in that time.
If it's an emergency text, meright.
It's all agreements essentiallyand it is a way to just create
sustainable relationships.
(21:09):
I should claim my own bias here, because I often end up being
the person that listens a lotand I didn't know how to dispel
that energy for a long time andI didn't know how to gracefully
communicate to friends about itand I definitely ended up losing
some friendships and beingphysically unwell and just
(21:34):
carrying a lot more than I could, and that is part of why it's
on my mind.
Jess (21:38):
That is something probably a lot of work besties are doing
listening to each other andsome, to your point, maybe
listening to 10 work besties.
What would be therecommendations to these work
besties to check that right?
Check your authenticity first,but then what would you do to
help them stop?
Athena Desai (21:53):
that great question.
I'm going to try and put myselfin the shoes of someone who
shares a lot um and has the bestof intentions.
Jess (22:06):
Right, it's not like malicious in either end.
Right, it's malicious on eitherend exactly.
Athena Desai (22:12):
um, we're not trying to hurt someone, but
there is like an expanding ofconsciousness and awareness.
That helps with that.
And this is one of my hacksabout authenticity is you kind
of have to be radically honestwith yourself to be able to
really get to what is happeningfor you.
It does sound a bit confronting, but even a check-in if you
(22:42):
really love and trust yourbestie and you have any inkling
that this could be going on,it's very bold and brave.
But you could ask right, Likehey, I've kind of been getting
the feeling that I'm justdumping on you a lot lately.
Is that accurate?
Has that been happening for you?
Opening up the conversation andlike maybe trying to pick up on
some of the nonverbalcommunication, when people are
(23:04):
listening with their whole body,when everyone in the room is on
some par of some kind ofregulation, If people are
fidgeting or looking around orchecking their watch or their
phone, all of the nonverbal cuesthat again I was gonna say I'm
laughing because I I that's oneof the the ways I know I'm
(23:28):
venting too much to claude islike while I'm talking to her
she'll be like yeah, uh-huh, andI'm like, okay, you're just not
listening, you're out of it,it's too much I'm sorry.
Claude (23:43):
Do I do that?
Jess (23:44):
there are, I'm sorry jess, it's like what athena's saying.
You have to check yourself attimes, like I didn't really need
to tell you that same complaint.
It's, in essence, was the samecomplaint that I have had for
like three weeks, and like howmany times you need to hear it,
right?
Hello, jess oh there's nothingto be sorry for.
(24:05):
I think this is all good, Likehow do I regulate myself and not
rely on somebody else who'sover listening to it?
Athena Desai (24:14):
Moment of healing.
Jess (24:15):
Look at that it's good for both right.
Athena Desai (24:19):
Yeah, and it can go both ways right.
I mean, sometimes we don'tshare enough.
There are people in our liveswho are like I'd really love to
know what's going on for you.
You look like you're stressedout, but you haven't been saying
anything Like what's going on.
Finding that courage, thatwillingness.
Jess (24:35):
And even with your work capacity too, to your point,
because there are times whereyou do see each other every day.
You're in meetings every day,maybe you still have lunch every
day, but you're likechit-chatting about all the work
stuff that, like you sometimeseven forget to check in and just
say, hey, how are you like,what's going on?
Claude (24:53):
personally, what a great point.
Jess (24:56):
And sometimes we know each other so much that we know
something is wrong yeah, likeyou usually wait for me to say
something, you're like yeah, Iknew something was off.
Athena Desai (25:06):
Yeah, right, and sometimes the lines are so
blurry, right, we have theseVenn diagrams, and in the middle
of us is the work and thepersonal stuff and can be a lot
to untangle, for sure.
Jess (25:21):
You talk a lot, too, about checking in with your authentic
self.
What do you mean, too, aboutchecking?
Athena Desai (25:27):
in with your authentic self.
What do you mean by that?
What one's authentic self is?
There's a couple of ways I liketo think of it.
One of it this is part of why Icalled in the sort of radical
honesty, because it's sort ofthe no bullshit.
Ooh, can I swear, I didn't askthat I swear like a sailor when
(25:49):
I'm left to my own devices.
So the no bullshit part of you,something that comes up a lot
I'll try to come up with anexample where, like, someone is
asking for coaching around arelationship let's say it's a
romantic one and we're trying toget at how they actually feel
and a lot of the language islike, well, he or she is just
(26:10):
being a dick right now.
They're just, they're so angryand they're so stressed.
And if they could just blank,blank, blank, right.
So maybe they've never reachedthat level of expression before
where they said all those thingsand that's worth celebrating.
But if it still sounds likeblaming and other people are
wrong and there's not really arecognition of how they're
(26:32):
showing up and how they'recontributing to the situation,
there's further to go.
Authenticity isn't where wejust get to call other people
out.
Authenticity is where we'reeven calling ourselves out,
other people out.
Authenticity is where we'reeven calling ourselves out and
we're like, actually I haven'tbeen telling him how I feel for
(26:56):
quite some time.
I've actually been sitting onthis for a couple months, so
that's on me.
I mean, sure you could still bebeing a dick, but like no,
maybe I'm the dick.
There's always that Venn diagrambetween us in any relationship.
So, authenticity you're sort ofgetting past the bullshit.
Even if it sounds good, usuallyit's pretty vulnerable and the
(27:18):
process of getting there usuallyis pretty uncomfortable, right.
Maybe not the whole thing, butif you're staying again, it's
another good clue.
If it's comfortable for you thewhole way, then you have
further to go, because when youget to that point where you're
like, oh my God, I don't trusthim with this and I don't trust
(27:38):
myself with this, and that'sbecause of this wound right, it
is in the past, in my backgroundThen you're starting to get
somewhere right.
That is the place where you'reactually uncovering what is
there for you.
And I like to think that,because we are beings of light
in human bodies, having humanexperiences, authenticity does
(27:59):
involve some equanimity and somegrace.
That's like the absoluteinnermost level, where we're all
made up of the same stuff andthen it gets sort of like more
human all the way out and thoseexpressions and aspects of
ourselves are pretty unique,right.
So we're really trying to getto this one lifetime and
(28:21):
experience and how we show up inthe world as these people.
Jess (28:27):
Is it safe to say, athena, that to be vulnerable and or
feeling uncomfortable all thetime?
Doesn't that in essence meanthat you're always kind of
searching for your authenticity?
I think it depends on thecontext.
At some point, when you knowwho you are and maybe the
obstacles that you are going tohave to always, constantly deal
with, you should be cognizant ofthem.
But I guess there is thatelement of you'll kind of, even
(28:50):
though you know them, you stillslip back into I'm thinking
right now.
Athena Desai (28:54):
I'm getting this image of like tuning a radio
dial.
So there is like a station ofyour authenticity that is
sustainable, right.
Maybe changes to some degreeover time, but for the most part
it's like that station.
You know, when you dial aparticular way, you're going to
get that wavelength of energy.
There are various things thatcan distort that signal, right.
(29:17):
Trauma is one of them, andtrauma is all the things you
just described, like when you'rein a state where something big
has just happened and you'restill processing it and it's a
wound, can be uncomfortable andvulnerable and all of those
things.
Opening, falling in love can beone of those things.
Right, various forms of openingand expansion can often be like
that too.
This is where, like knowingyourself and figuring out like,
(29:41):
ah, what, okay, so when I'm inmy station, my like authentic
wavelength, I tend to know thisand feel like this and if it's
like, if the dial is just like alittle bit off, I'm hearing
some static, what do I need todo to like that's the
calibration right?
What do I need to do to turn itto the right or left to be able
to get into that clearerwavelength, that clear signal?
Jess (30:03):
I guess that's fair.
Even if you do fully know whoyou are, you're always going to
still have the minor tweakments.
Athena Desai (30:09):
let's say yeah, Because, again, in acupuncture,
Chinese medicine, shamanism,magic, Buddhism they've all
taught me about this sort ofinherent nature that we have,
which is light, I believe.
Right, it is love, and thatdoesn't stop us from being human
.
Right, it doesn't discount thehuman experience which has so
(30:32):
many different layers andtextures and flavors and colors,
and I actually think that alladds to our authenticity.
And when you have processed itand when your nervous system can
actually be at peace with it,you can really really talk about
it right, you can really bechoosing different actions and
(30:53):
thoughts and words around it.
Jess (30:56):
So question for you on we talked about when you're having,
maybe a challengingconversation with a coworker or
your bestie what would you coach?
And or is kind of differentwhen it's with a boss or a
superior.
Athena Desai (31:09):
That can be so tricky, right, but you know what
I actually feel like the rulesof authentic communication help
you in both instances, so that'sconvenient.
Claude (31:21):
Yeah.
Athena Desai (31:23):
It's humbling, and it's bold and a little bit
risky.
Claude (31:27):
Let me think of an.
Athena Desai (31:28):
Toss me an example and I'll toss you like an
authentic communication aroundit and an inauthentic
communication.
Jess (31:35):
Okay, let's see.
I think one that I always feelchallenged with is when I have a
superior boss that is amicromanager, so constantly
checking in and wants to know tothe most granular level of
detail of what's going on.
That to me is like a quickstress to my system.
Claude (31:55):
Sure, sure.
Well, more or less it's how tosay nice, like, nicely back off.
Jess (32:00):
Yeah, or how do I find a better way to regulate it Like?
Okay that's the approach.
Which is kind of what Inormally do.
I usually try and test with,like you know, I know this is
your style, this is my style,and if that doesn't work, then
it's kind of more like okay, Ijust have to learn how to deal
with it.
Athena Desai (32:17):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I hear some layers here,
right, like styles is actuallya very diplomatic, kind, real
way to say we're prettydifferent.
I don't work this way, right?
The inauthentic or lessauthentic example I was thinking
of was being like well, I sentyou this email that said that I
(32:38):
did the thing.
I texted you to say to do that,right, which is like a sort of
passive aggressive back off.
I've already done it, yeah,yeah, I'm on top of it, right.
I've already done it.
Yeah, I'm on top of it Right.
Here's a more authentic versionof that conversation.
So with oh, I kind of want toask I'll make up a name.
Is it female or male?
Jess (32:56):
Let's say Claude.
Athena Desai (32:58):
All right.
So, claude, can I get real fora second here?
Here?
I've been noticing for a whilethat you like to check in quite
a bit on what I'm doing, and I'mrealizing that it makes me feel
(33:18):
like you really fundamentallydon't trust me to do what is in
front of me.
There's a lot that might be myshit around that.
I am a perfectionist and I amterrified to disappoint people
in my life and I actually reallyadmire you and this
relationship is really importantto me, so I don't want to let
you down.
But I find that I'm gettingpretty frustrated around all the
(33:41):
communication and I'm justwondering what?
What can we do about that?
Claude (33:44):
Well, I need to know everything, because then I'm
being asked questions by mysuperior.
Athena Desai (33:50):
Okay, and what does everything mean to you?
What are you doing?
Where are the projects at?
Yeah, do you want to keep going?
I'm so happy to do this.
Jess (34:01):
I'm eating it up, ladies.
Athena Desai (34:04):
Yeah, listen, I mean, I get you have your
responsibilities.
Maybe I don't know, maybethere's some pressure coming
from people above you and, to beclear, I want to do this work
well and I care about you and Iwant you to succeed.
Right now it's not working forme.
The impact that it has on meand my work is that I'm going
(34:26):
back over and checking on thingsthat I've actually already done
and I feel good about, and thenI sit on it.
I don't talk to you about itbecause I'm afraid to.
I'm afraid that you'll getupset.
Jess (34:35):
I like where you're going with this.
I'm guessing this is what youmust do with your clients.
How do you frame it up in theway that the person who's coming
to you with this challengewould really feel more
comfortable doing Because you'restill positioning it as I, but
in servitude of the them?
I mean, it's really hard.
(34:56):
I feel comfortable for me and Idon't know if you did that
purposely because you don't knowme that well.
Athena Desai (35:01):
Yeah, oh, I'm trying, I'm trying to channel,
but when we use you, you'redoing this, this you're making
me blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
We're stepping way out of ourzone of empowerment.
Jess (35:12):
And you're also like making it a controversial verse
and they become defensive.
Athena Desai (35:17):
They become defensive.
I mean, of course, don't we allright?
I mean you feel wrong, you feelblamed, you feel like you hurt
this person, and it's okay toexpress that you might be hurt.
But when you're standing inresponsibility for yourself, you
can say I know that I'm takingthis in in a very particular way
because of who I am.
I actually am a superrecovering people pleaser.
(35:40):
I really want to get the A plusand check off the box and all
those things and what'shappening for me.
My experience is that when Ihear from you 20 times in an
hour, I'm more focused onworrying about what's happening
between us than I am on the work.
Whatever it is.
(36:01):
It's all valid.
That person is going to have adifferent perspective, their own
needs, their own desires.
We're trying to find the spacein the middle of us and when you
cut to the real stuff, whichdoes take time, right, I mean
it's hard to do on day one ormaybe even in the first few
months or year, but I actuallythink it does go a lot better
(36:22):
when you establish that that'show you're going to communicate
and that can happen at any point.
Jess (36:27):
And I think, going back to the beginning of the holistic
healing and what your kind ofspecialty is, in addition to
feeling authentic, it feltcomfortable in my body.
Sometimes you go into aconversation you get a little
tense.
Like even the way you weresaying it I was like, oh, I
could do that.
I wouldn't feel awkward sayingit that way.
So I see what you mean by yourmind and body need to be in sync
(36:48):
to really help you get pastsome of these things too.
Athena Desai (36:52):
What a great, great thing to flag is that when
you're really rooted in yourown body and your own truth and
you have some regulationhappening, it does feel good.
At the very least it doesn'tfeel bad, right.
And when it does feel bad andtense and we're trying to say
(37:14):
the right thing and I mean 10times out of 10, 10 times out of
10, I cannot tell you theamount of times I've had a
client be like, you know, I wantto say this to the person and
they'll just tell me becauseit's a safe space.
I'm not judging them, theytrust me, you know X, y, z.
And then we might spend 20, 30,40 minutes, sort of like
(37:35):
pulling back the layers, whilelike I don't know, I can't
really say that why?
Because this always happens anddah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
When we get back to like whatis going to be said, it's the
original thing, it's the thingthat they said to me when they
felt safe and confident andright every time.
Jess (37:54):
That totally tracks because, to your point, they
felt confident in that.
Athena Desai (37:58):
Yeah, and you can feel that in your body.
You can also feel like you'reabout to throw up, and that
doesn't make it less authenticSometimes, that's, you know that
it's happening, but again, yourown calibration.
Jess (38:10):
Yeah.
Athena Desai (38:11):
Right.
You know that when you show upto conversations like this, you
might have your heart in yourthroat.
Jess (38:18):
It doesn't mean to stop necessarily, and it's a bad
thing because once you get pastit, your body will then go back
to the comfortable balance.
Athena Desai (38:27):
Yeah.
Jess (38:27):
You know, this has been amazing.
Your hacks, your understandingof light within you has been
really enlightening.
I have one last question foryou.
What advice would you offer toour WorkBestie community for
those that are striving toembrace their authentic selves
amongst all of the lifechallenges they have?
(38:48):
What would be that one bit ofadvice?
Athena Desai (38:50):
Develop a practice where you are connecting with
the vibration of unconditionallove and when you can speak to
yourself and all your differentparts from that place.
Game has changed.
Everything is open andavailable to you.
You will figure it out.
And if you can't do that, getsome support.
(39:12):
There's so much support outthere to help you do that.
Jess (39:16):
Athena.
How can people find or look foryou if they're interested in
learning more about this?
Athena Desai (39:23):
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm super happy to connect thatway.
On Instagram, I'msoulfulhealingandcouncil
C-O-U-N-C-I-L is my handle.
Happy to connect that way.
Those are probably the bestways, and my phone number and
email are in both of thoseplaces so you can always reach
(39:43):
out.
We'll link them in our shownotes as well, for all those who
are listening on their commutes.
Jess (39:49):
You'll be able to find it there and connect with Athena.
Athena Desai (39:51):
Wonderful.
Thank you both so much Greatwork.
You do Appreciate it.
Claude (39:57):
Athena, thank you so much.
Really, your journey is reallya testament to the power of
embracing all the aspects ofoneself.
Besties, if you really enjoyedthis episode, like we did, do
not forget to share, like andsubscribe and, in the meantime,
(40:17):
see you next week.
Jess (40:18):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings or just sending
that perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (40:31):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
Have you ever wondered how embracing your true self can
lead to profound healing andpersonal growth?
Today we have the privilege ofspeaking with Athena Desai, a
woman whose life journeyembodies resilience,
authenticity and transformation.
From her early experiences as afirst-generation Asian American
to her diverse roles injournalism holistic healing.
(00:23):
Diverse roles in journalismholistic healing music Her story
is a true testament of thepower of Embracing's one
multifaceted identity.
Claude (00:31):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:39):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry Work besties.
So welcome Athena.
Athena Desai (00:51):
Thank you so much to both of you.
If you wouldn't mind kicking offby giving a little bit about
who you are, yeah, I ask myselfthat almost every day what are
you doing and how did you get it?
It's been a very serpentinepath, as you know a little bit
about.
I think it started with notreally knowing and I love to say
(01:15):
that because there's a lot ofpeople out there who are like I
know, or I have to know, thatI'm going to do this thing and
it's going to turn out that way,and that really was never what
happened for me.
My parents wanted me to be adoctor.
They're both doctors, they comefrom families of doctors.
It's an Asian American thing inmany, many communities but I
always loved music and writingthose were my pretty core
(01:40):
passions and trying to figureout why people did what they did
, and that was a constantquestion.
So in college I choseanthropology because it sort of
allowed me to do all of thosethings.
Yeah, and in the vein of sortof checking out what I didn't
(02:00):
feel we were telling the rightstories about, I ended up
working in a prison my senioryear.
I went to Cuba my junior yearand all of that sort of pointed
me in this direction ofauthentic stories and there were
a lot of stories in the newsabout crime and prisons.
But I knew we were missingsomething and there were other
(02:23):
narratives that needed to comeinto play, and so I ended up
getting an internship at NPR,which is not what they wanted at
first, but I just kept bangingon the door until they let me in
and absolutely fell in lovewith radio.
My first official job after myinternship was the editorial
assistant for the 2000 electionsunit, which I just devoured.
(02:49):
I mean, what an exciting,exciting time to be in
Washington and working in newspolitics.
But along the way with news, Iended up getting really, really
unwell.
I'm very mission driven and soI was so used to throwing myself
at everything 100,000%, and myhealth had always been really
good up until a certain point.
(03:11):
But when I moved to Bostonparticularly, I could not ignore
what my body was telling me.
It was really profoundlyunhappy.
I had to take a pretty bigmental, emotional pause in the
middle of one of the biggestnews years in Boston ever and
say am I doing the right thinghere?
What's my chance of asustainable career?
(03:32):
To maintain my health duringall of that I was getting
acupuncture and taking Chineseherbs.
I didn't realize it at first,but just slowly over time it
really started to influence mythinking about balance and being
rooted in something that wasactually healthy for me, so
(03:56):
that's what I turned towards.
I became an acupuncturist andan herbalist acupuncturist and
an herbalist.
Jess (04:08):
For those that have never had acupuncture, I think it'd be
good for them to understandwhat it is the process.
And how did you then go frombeing a patient to this is now
your life.
Athena Desai (04:14):
Yeah, I'll work backwards here.
Ultimately, what felt the worstabout how things were going was
how out of balance I was and mylife was.
All I did was work essentially,and I knew that I needed more,
even though I loved my work.
I was super passionate about mywork.
(04:34):
My first acupuncture has taughtme so much about the medicine
and what happens.
There are many different styles,but typically you're going in
with some issues, problems,complaints, I have found over
the years I've been doing it for12, 13 years now and they can
be very amorphous.
(04:54):
People show up often at the endof a road where Western
medicine really hasn't helped,or they have a thing that they
can't put a name to.
They don't have a diagnosis foryou.
Sit with your practitioner andthey'll take your pulse and look
at your tongue, maybe palpateyour belly all of these
diagnostic tools.
They're trying to figure outwhat's happening in the universe
of you and why this ishappening to you in this moment.
(05:17):
So you get to show up just asyou are every session, but it
also works cumulatively.
So you're getting better everysession, but it also works
cumulatively.
So you're getting better.
Your systems are adjusting andyou're gaining a sense of
calibration the whole time,which is pretty phenomenal,
because you end up being yourown practitioner in some ways.
Once you get to a stable pointwhere your issue has either
(05:40):
resolved completely, you're ableto function with it going on in
a totally different way, thenyou can ask yourself what do I
need to eat for this to be inbalance, for me to feel good?
How do I need to think?
What does my movement during myday look like?
How am I steering this ship?
Jess (06:03):
You learn a lot about yourself through the process,
does that organically come up inthe meetings, or is that
something that was more?
You coming with?
That kind of linking ofunderstanding of things in your
body were now becoming morebalanced and you're now trying
to figure out what are thoseother next steps.
Athena Desai (06:19):
It sort of depends on the patient and the
practitioner.
Some practitioners don't talk alot about what's happening and
it is a whole different sort oflanguage and way of thinking,
opening.
I mean, it's all aboutreadjusting your own energy and
your own authentic sources ofhealth and the way that those
sources connect with theultimate source of energy and
(06:42):
spirit.
Then you start opening tothings, you start noticing more
and over time it does become alittle bit harder to be like.
Every time I eat all of myplate of dessert, I know that it
doesn't feel that good.
Maybe I need half of it, ormaybe it's once a week, right.
You start to kind of feel intowhat works best for you.
Claude (07:02):
My understanding, in acupuncture you have the needles
and you put it in a certainspecific place in your body,
depending on what you're hurting.
I mean, I did this back inFrance.
Walk us through.
What are those particularpressure points that make
(07:24):
everything go and get better?
Athena Desai (07:28):
There are many points on the body which are
actually sort of doorways alongmeridians or paths of energy,
and those paths are sort ofgoverned by the organs in
Chinese medicine.
In Chinese medicine everythinghas layers, so the organs all
(07:48):
have their own roles andresponsibilities in terms of
what they govern and help us tolearn in our lives.
Take the liver, and in someways it can match up with a
Western allopathic definition ofliver functions.
But also liver has to do withanger, frustration, bitter
resentment on one end of thespectrum of the emotions and
(08:10):
your lessons, and then on theother end there's creativity,
vision, leadership, compassion.
So we talk about virtues andvices, but just sort of the
other end of the spectrum ofwhat the liver is in charge of.
So you can come in.
Sometimes you will feel likephysical pain or discomfort
where the liver actually is.
(08:31):
Other times you come in and youhave TMJ, your jaw is super
tight, grinding your teeth atnight, or your tendons and your
ligaments are really tight andyou keep injuring yourself as
you're exercising.
We start to assess what's theprimary set of factors here and
then we put together thecombination of points along
(08:51):
those pathways that tip thescales.
It's a very empowering medicinebecause ultimately I'm not
putting anything in you ortaking anything out right that's
material.
Out right, that's material.
It's all energy that your bodyhas a lot of wisdom about how to
(09:11):
balance.
I'm a bit of a minimalist.
I do the least amount possibleand I'm not currently practicing
acupuncture.
I'm pivoting the principles ofthe medicine to work in my
coaching, which I can do fromanywhere, and it does work.
There's so much wisdom in themedicine.
It's so incredibly elegant andprofound, so I'm trying to
translate.
Jess (09:31):
The acupuncture itself is helpful.
So help us understand how yougot from the more medical of the
acupuncture for the needles tonow the discussions and the
relationship aspect of it.
Athena Desai (09:42):
I think it's my connection to spirit and
spirituality that's alwaysdriven it.
I like the tenet of teachingsomeone to fish versus just
giving them a fish.
So I've always practiced inthat way.
The cosmology, the philosophy,the principles, those translate
(10:05):
very well into our emotionallives, our psycho-spiritual
lives.
So, even though there's nocorporeal body necessarily, even
the most basic principles arereally super helpful Balance,
flow, authenticity.
There is a saying if you're notyourself, you're sick.
(10:26):
In Chinese medicine, if you'renot well, there's a place in
your life where you're not beingyou.
That's a tough one to take on,but it's definitely interesting.
Jess (10:38):
Now that you've shifted into more of the relationship
portion of it.
Let's say, your work bestie ishaving challenges.
What are some things?
Maybe you would be working withthe person who maybe is
chatting to you about a workbestie.
Athena Desai (10:54):
Yeah, I've thought a lot about all the
conversations I've had over theyears with work besties, and
I've cherished them.
My goodness, we cannot survivewithout them.
Jess (11:06):
Right, we agree.
Athena Desai (11:09):
I do think there can be challenges, even in the
listening.
This is where some of thoseprinciples it'll be fun to kind
of play with them and see ifthey make any sense in this
space.
So know thyself right that's apretty widespread spiritual
principle, and I think there issomething about regularly
(11:31):
cultivating and checking in withyour authentic self, where you
can really be getting what yourauthentic needs and desires are.
Particularly in high stressmission driven environments, we
can really get pulled off of ourauthentic needs and desires
(11:52):
pretty quickly.
A lot happens in the amorphousspace where there are
expectations of us that maybehaven't been made totally clear.
There are places where we needto make agreements about what we
do and don't do that aren'ttotally clear.
There are ways in which we'vebeen carrying too heavy of a
(12:13):
load or doing too much work thanwe can actually bear, which is
kind of the definition of stressright.
It's like more load than thesystem can handle.
Often we don't communicateabout that and we're sort of
silently carrying it.
One thing that acupuncture hasreally taught me, and the
primary one, is our relationshipwith ourself right, and I think
(12:34):
that's one that we tend toforget and I have seen with
clients and patients.
When you really start to groundin, that inevitably you'll have
to be standing in fullresponsibility for yourself and
your actions.
I know it sounds like a bigdeal, but it is sort of the most
empowering place that you cancome from when we're in
(12:58):
ecosystems.
If we're not working from thatplace, we can really quickly
slide into blame and makingpeople wrong and doing this sort
of indirect dance around thethings that actually have to be
dealt with, which are oftengoing to come up in very
(13:19):
difficult conversations.
We don't have very forgivingcultural background for
difficult conversations.
Claude (13:26):
I admire to go a bit more into the difficult
conversation.
So do you mean difficultconversation within work besties
Like?
What do you mean by that there?
Athena Desai (13:36):
could be difficult conversations amongst your
intimates, people that you love,your actual besties.
This happened a lot to me innews, where your besties are the
people who will tell you what'shappening right for them and in
the workplace and you end upkind of doing a lot of listening
and processing and supportingand suggesting.
Jess (13:59):
I think, when it comes to work besties, they leverage each
other when they want to havethose difficult conversations
with other people.
There is an element of you wantto make sure your work bestie
is helpful and supportive andproviding that way to do it for
you, not for them, which thatcan be a difficult conversation
in and of itself.
But then there's also times andI think Claude and I can test
(14:22):
to it where we walk into asituation where we've had to
have difficult conversationswith each other and I know when
I prepare for those difficultconversations I sometimes get
anxiety or I get like a littlestressed.
Leveraging some of the holisticelements of what you do for the
acupuncturist, I would thinkthere's ways to help work
(14:44):
besties when it's somebody moreclose, somebody that you really
have a care and want to beupfront with the person, coach
the person but at the same timebe respectful.
Athena Desai (14:54):
I love this.
Yeah, I think one really greatplace to start is naming the
things.
Sometimes we just launch into aconversation and we have like a
verbal vomit or we really needto do this thing.
We're venting, but then ourfriend thinks we might need a
solution.
There's a lot of power inpausing and asking or being the
(15:17):
person to say you know what Ineed right now.
I just need to vent for fiveminutes, that's all.
Can you just listen to me?
And that is opening up a chancefor the other person to have
agency too, because some fiveminutes you can't, you're
actually not available for that.
I have a pretty big advocacy nowfor checking in again with your
authentic needs, because that'sreally where we show up best
(15:39):
and where we give the most.
So of course, you love thisperson and you want to show up
for them and listen to them.
But this notion of balance andcalibration is dynamic.
Every moment is different,every day is different and
you're really checking in withsomeone, sometimes again in
pretty high stress situations,sometimes not, but that pause is
(16:01):
pretty important and thecheck-in.
I also have become a pretty bigadvocate for nervous system
regulation.
Sometimes our friends helpregulate our systems.
Everything is energy.
That's another thing that welearned from acupuncture.
So, especially when you'reintimate with someone, your
fields are merging right and soyou can pick up someone else's
(16:24):
energy.
Things that happened to themare still in their field.
They can have strings to energythat you end up taking on.
They can have strings to energythat you end up taking on.
It doesn't have to happen thatway, but it's enough for us to
again, sort of like, turntowards our own calibration and
make sure we're beingresponsible about what we're
communicating and also how we'reshowing up.
Claude (16:45):
You said before you haven't calibrated your nervous
system, how do people know whatto do to go?
Athena Desai (16:54):
to that state.
Great question, and how do youdo those things in?
Claude (16:58):
the work environment.
Jess (17:00):
I know I need to.
How do I do it?
Athena Desai (17:03):
Well, I'd love to hear a little bit more actually
about how you know you need toand there are always somatic
clues, right Like, our bodiesare pretty wise and they're
pretty much always telling ussomething.
Sometimes, when you're in workmode, you're not really
listening.
Claude (17:17):
but pain, discomfort shortness of breath, difficulty
breathing right.
Athena Desai (17:29):
One of my favorite parts of the calibration system
is we start listening better.
Let's say we do know.
Oh, I feel so anxious.
I have all this nervous energy.
When you tune in enough, youmight even sense I feel like I
need to shake or I feel like Ineed to run for a mile or
something.
I have very often counseledpeople to take a bathroom break.
(17:50):
If that's like the best thatyou can do, Just sneak off for
it, Like no one really bothersyou in the bathroom, Just get
into a stall and sit and breathe.
Breathing is one of the fastestways, if not the fastest, most
effective way, to change yourstate of energy and regulate
your nervous system.
(18:11):
And if we're walking or alive,that's available to us.
Right, and I do think we needprivate moments.
Sometimes we don't all have anoffice where we can shut the
door, and that's my firstemergency go-to is the bathroom.
All movement moves energy, soif you need to step outside even
for five minutes, take a quickwalk around the block.
(18:33):
As we're checking in withourselves, let's say we
regularly talk to a work bestieand we regularly dump things on
them or have them co-regulate orhelp us to regulate.
There may be some ways thatyour body isn't.
It might be not exactly whatyou need, but it's a habit.
I would kind of advocate fordoing your best to slow down and
(18:57):
ask yourself what do I reallyreally need right now?
Jess (19:01):
Is it helping both of you right?
Because to your point, likejust dumping on somebody, I
could just be now passing mynegative energy over to Claude
and being like you dig, that'snot really nice.
Claude (19:15):
And it also becomes a codependency actually, that you
cannot regulate yourself withoutthe other person.
So you don't learn, becausethat's what work besties do.
Sometimes you just want to bethe other person, but that's
where, which is because that'swhy we are there.
But you have to learn also howto do that.
Jess (19:41):
But I think even just like athena's little hack there on
making it a little bit moreestablished as to what you're
doing.
Like I am just venting, I I amnot seeking confirmation, I'm
not seeking guidance, coaching.
Your response probably is alittle bit better than just
dumping, because the immediatereaction for you would be like
(20:03):
what can I take away from you,what can I help, versus doing
what is needed to the otherperson.
And it might get to the pointwhere at some point you turn
around to your work breasty andsay, hey, I can't take it
anymore.
Claude (20:13):
Stop.
We did that, if you remember,jess.
We were in the three-way and atone point, you left because I
couldn't anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
Athena Desai (20:26):
Yeah, I mean, particularly with close
relationships, there is anopportunity to actually set
agreements about it that aresort of longer term right.
You can always have the in themoment pause and conversation.
Nothing is ever perfect, so wecan all forgive ourselves for
forgetting or not doing it, butwhen you do have an established
(20:48):
relationship, you can actuallylay out agreements.
I realized that regularly atwork, particularly at lunchtime.
I need my own space, so I'mgoing to be a little less
available in that time.
If it's an emergency text, meright.
It's all agreements essentiallyand it is a way to just create
sustainable relationships.
(21:09):
I should claim my own bias here, because I often end up being
the person that listens a lotand I didn't know how to dispel
that energy for a long time andI didn't know how to gracefully
communicate to friends about itand I definitely ended up losing
some friendships and beingphysically unwell and just
(21:34):
carrying a lot more than I could, and that is part of why it's
on my mind.
Jess (21:38):
That is something probably a lot of work besties are doing
listening to each other andsome, to your point, maybe
listening to 10 work besties.
What would be therecommendations to these work
besties to check that right?
Check your authenticity first,but then what would you do to
help them stop?
Athena Desai (21:53):
that great question.
I'm going to try and put myselfin the shoes of someone who
shares a lot um and has the bestof intentions.
Jess (22:06):
Right, it's not like malicious in either end.
Right, it's malicious on eitherend exactly.
Athena Desai (22:12):
um, we're not trying to hurt someone, but
there is like an expanding ofconsciousness and awareness.
That helps with that.
And this is one of my hacksabout authenticity is you kind
of have to be radically honestwith yourself to be able to
really get to what is happeningfor you.
It does sound a bit confronting, but even a check-in if you
(22:42):
really love and trust yourbestie and you have any inkling
that this could be going on,it's very bold and brave.
But you could ask right, Likehey, I've kind of been getting
the feeling that I'm justdumping on you a lot lately.
Is that accurate?
Has that been happening for you?
Opening up the conversation andlike maybe trying to pick up on
some of the nonverbalcommunication, when people are
(23:04):
listening with their whole body,when everyone in the room is on
some par of some kind ofregulation, If people are
fidgeting or looking around orchecking their watch or their
phone, all of the nonverbal cuesthat again I was gonna say I'm
laughing because I I that's oneof the the ways I know I'm
(23:28):
venting too much to claude islike while I'm talking to her
she'll be like yeah, uh-huh, andI'm like, okay, you're just not
listening, you're out of it,it's too much I'm sorry.
Claude (23:43):
Do I do that?
Jess (23:44):
there are, I'm sorry jess, it's like what athena's saying.
You have to check yourself attimes, like I didn't really need
to tell you that same complaint.
It's, in essence, was the samecomplaint that I have had for
like three weeks, and like howmany times you need to hear it,
right?
Hello, jess oh there's nothingto be sorry for.
(24:05):
I think this is all good, Likehow do I regulate myself and not
rely on somebody else who'sover listening to it?
Athena Desai (24:14):
Moment of healing.
Jess (24:15):
Look at that it's good for both right.
Athena Desai (24:19):
Yeah, and it can go both ways right.
I mean, sometimes we don'tshare enough.
There are people in our liveswho are like I'd really love to
know what's going on for you.
You look like you're stressedout, but you haven't been saying
anything Like what's going on.
Finding that courage, thatwillingness.
Jess (24:35):
And even with your work capacity too, to your point,
because there are times whereyou do see each other every day.
You're in meetings every day,maybe you still have lunch every
day, but you're likechit-chatting about all the work
stuff that, like you sometimeseven forget to check in and just
say, hey, how are you like,what's going on?
Claude (24:53):
personally, what a great point.
Jess (24:56):
And sometimes we know each other so much that we know
something is wrong yeah, likeyou usually wait for me to say
something, you're like yeah, Iknew something was off.
Athena Desai (25:06):
Yeah, right, and sometimes the lines are so
blurry, right, we have theseVenn diagrams, and in the middle
of us is the work and thepersonal stuff and can be a lot
to untangle, for sure.
Jess (25:21):
You talk a lot, too, about checking in with your authentic
self.
What do you mean, too, aboutchecking?
Athena Desai (25:27):
in with your authentic self.
What do you mean by that?
What one's authentic self is?
There's a couple of ways I liketo think of it.
One of it this is part of why Icalled in the sort of radical
honesty, because it's sort ofthe no bullshit.
Ooh, can I swear, I didn't askthat I swear like a sailor when
(25:49):
I'm left to my own devices.
So the no bullshit part of you,something that comes up a lot
I'll try to come up with anexample where, like, someone is
asking for coaching around arelationship let's say it's a
romantic one and we're trying toget at how they actually feel
and a lot of the language islike, well, he or she is just
(26:10):
being a dick right now.
They're just, they're so angryand they're so stressed.
And if they could just blank,blank, blank, right.
So maybe they've never reachedthat level of expression before
where they said all those thingsand that's worth celebrating.
But if it still sounds likeblaming and other people are
wrong and there's not really arecognition of how they're
(26:32):
showing up and how they'recontributing to the situation,
there's further to go.
Authenticity isn't where wejust get to call other people
out.
Authenticity is where we'reeven calling ourselves out,
other people out.
Authenticity is where we'reeven calling ourselves out and
we're like, actually I haven'tbeen telling him how I feel for
(26:56):
quite some time.
I've actually been sitting onthis for a couple months, so
that's on me.
I mean, sure you could still bebeing a dick, but like no,
maybe I'm the dick.
There's always that Venn diagrambetween us in any relationship.
So, authenticity you're sort ofgetting past the bullshit.
Even if it sounds good, usuallyit's pretty vulnerable and the
(27:18):
process of getting there usuallyis pretty uncomfortable, right.
Maybe not the whole thing, butif you're staying again, it's
another good clue.
If it's comfortable for you thewhole way, then you have
further to go, because when youget to that point where you're
like, oh my God, I don't trusthim with this and I don't trust
(27:38):
myself with this, and that'sbecause of this wound right, it
is in the past, in my backgroundThen you're starting to get
somewhere right.
That is the place where you'reactually uncovering what is
there for you.
And I like to think that,because we are beings of light
in human bodies, having humanexperiences, authenticity does
(27:59):
involve some equanimity and somegrace.
That's like the absoluteinnermost level, where we're all
made up of the same stuff andthen it gets sort of like more
human all the way out and thoseexpressions and aspects of
ourselves are pretty unique,right.
So we're really trying to getto this one lifetime and
(28:21):
experience and how we show up inthe world as these people.
Jess (28:27):
Is it safe to say, athena, that to be vulnerable and or
feeling uncomfortable all thetime?
Doesn't that in essence meanthat you're always kind of
searching for your authenticity?
I think it depends on thecontext.
At some point, when you knowwho you are and maybe the
obstacles that you are going tohave to always, constantly deal
with, you should be cognizant ofthem.
But I guess there is thatelement of you'll kind of, even
(28:50):
though you know them, you stillslip back into I'm thinking
right now.
Athena Desai (28:54):
I'm getting this image of like tuning a radio
dial.
So there is like a station ofyour authenticity that is
sustainable, right.
Maybe changes to some degreeover time, but for the most part
it's like that station.
You know, when you dial aparticular way, you're going to
get that wavelength of energy.
There are various things thatcan distort that signal, right.
(29:17):
Trauma is one of them, andtrauma is all the things you
just described, like when you'rein a state where something big
has just happened and you'restill processing it and it's a
wound, can be uncomfortable andvulnerable and all of those
things.
Opening, falling in love can beone of those things.
Right, various forms of openingand expansion can often be like
that too.
This is where, like knowingyourself and figuring out like,
(29:41):
ah, what, okay, so when I'm inmy station, my like authentic
wavelength, I tend to know thisand feel like this and if it's
like, if the dial is just like alittle bit off, I'm hearing
some static, what do I need todo to like that's the
calibration right?
What do I need to do to turn itto the right or left to be able
to get into that clearerwavelength, that clear signal?
Jess (30:03):
I guess that's fair.
Even if you do fully know whoyou are, you're always going to
still have the minor tweakments.
Athena Desai (30:09):
let's say yeah, Because, again, in acupuncture,
Chinese medicine, shamanism,magic, Buddhism they've all
taught me about this sort ofinherent nature that we have,
which is light, I believe.
Right, it is love, and thatdoesn't stop us from being human
.
Right, it doesn't discount thehuman experience which has so
(30:32):
many different layers andtextures and flavors and colors,
and I actually think that alladds to our authenticity.
And when you have processed itand when your nervous system can
actually be at peace with it,you can really really talk about
it right, you can really bechoosing different actions and
(30:53):
thoughts and words around it.
Jess (30:56):
So question for you on we talked about when you're having,
maybe a challengingconversation with a coworker or
your bestie what would you coach?
And or is kind of differentwhen it's with a boss or a
superior.
Athena Desai (31:09):
That can be so tricky, right, but you know what
I actually feel like the rulesof authentic communication help
you in both instances, so that'sconvenient.
Claude (31:21):
Yeah.
Athena Desai (31:23):
It's humbling, and it's bold and a little bit
risky.
Claude (31:27):
Let me think of an.
Athena Desai (31:28):
Toss me an example and I'll toss you like an
authentic communication aroundit and an inauthentic
communication.
Jess (31:35):
Okay, let's see.
I think one that I always feelchallenged with is when I have a
superior boss that is amicromanager, so constantly
checking in and wants to know tothe most granular level of
detail of what's going on.
That to me is like a quickstress to my system.
Claude (31:55):
Sure, sure.
Well, more or less it's how tosay nice, like, nicely back off.
Jess (32:00):
Yeah, or how do I find a better way to regulate it Like?
Okay that's the approach.
Which is kind of what Inormally do.
I usually try and test with,like you know, I know this is
your style, this is my style,and if that doesn't work, then
it's kind of more like okay, Ijust have to learn how to deal
with it.
Athena Desai (32:17):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I hear some layers here,
right, like styles is actuallya very diplomatic, kind, real
way to say we're prettydifferent.
I don't work this way, right?
The inauthentic or lessauthentic example I was thinking
of was being like well, I sentyou this email that said that I
(32:38):
did the thing.
I texted you to say to do that,right, which is like a sort of
passive aggressive back off.
I've already done it, yeah,yeah, I'm on top of it, right.
I've already done it.
Yeah, I'm on top of it Right.
Here's a more authentic versionof that conversation.
So with oh, I kind of want toask I'll make up a name.
Is it female or male?
Jess (32:56):
Let's say Claude.
Athena Desai (32:58):
All right.
So, claude, can I get real fora second here?
Here?
I've been noticing for a whilethat you like to check in quite
a bit on what I'm doing, and I'mrealizing that it makes me feel
(33:18):
like you really fundamentallydon't trust me to do what is in
front of me.
There's a lot that might be myshit around that.
I am a perfectionist and I amterrified to disappoint people
in my life and I actually reallyadmire you and this
relationship is really importantto me, so I don't want to let
you down.
But I find that I'm gettingpretty frustrated around all the
(33:41):
communication and I'm justwondering what?
What can we do about that?
Claude (33:44):
Well, I need to know everything, because then I'm
being asked questions by mysuperior.
Athena Desai (33:50):
Okay, and what does everything mean to you?
What are you doing?
Where are the projects at?
Yeah, do you want to keep going?
I'm so happy to do this.
Jess (34:01):
I'm eating it up, ladies.
Athena Desai (34:04):
Yeah, listen, I mean, I get you have your
responsibilities.
Maybe I don't know, maybethere's some pressure coming
from people above you and, to beclear, I want to do this work
well and I care about you and Iwant you to succeed.
Right now it's not working forme.
The impact that it has on meand my work is that I'm going
(34:26):
back over and checking on thingsthat I've actually already done
and I feel good about, and thenI sit on it.
I don't talk to you about itbecause I'm afraid to.
I'm afraid that you'll getupset.
Jess (34:35):
I like where you're going with this.
I'm guessing this is what youmust do with your clients.
How do you frame it up in theway that the person who's coming
to you with this challengewould really feel more
comfortable doing Because you'restill positioning it as I, but
in servitude of the them?
I mean, it's really hard.
(34:56):
I feel comfortable for me and Idon't know if you did that
purposely because you don't knowme that well.
Athena Desai (35:01):
Yeah, oh, I'm trying, I'm trying to channel,
but when we use you, you'redoing this, this you're making
me blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
We're stepping way out of ourzone of empowerment.
Jess (35:12):
And you're also like making it a controversial verse
and they become defensive.
Athena Desai (35:17):
They become defensive.
I mean, of course, don't we allright?
I mean you feel wrong, you feelblamed, you feel like you hurt
this person, and it's okay toexpress that you might be hurt.
But when you're standing inresponsibility for yourself, you
can say I know that I'm takingthis in in a very particular way
because of who I am.
I actually am a superrecovering people pleaser.
(35:40):
I really want to get the A plusand check off the box and all
those things and what'shappening for me.
My experience is that when Ihear from you 20 times in an
hour, I'm more focused onworrying about what's happening
between us than I am on the work.
Whatever it is.
(36:01):
It's all valid.
That person is going to have adifferent perspective, their own
needs, their own desires.
We're trying to find the spacein the middle of us and when you
cut to the real stuff, whichdoes take time, right, I mean
it's hard to do on day one ormaybe even in the first few
months or year, but I actuallythink it does go a lot better
(36:22):
when you establish that that'show you're going to communicate
and that can happen at any point.
Jess (36:27):
And I think, going back to the beginning of the holistic
healing and what your kind ofspecialty is, in addition to
feeling authentic, it feltcomfortable in my body.
Sometimes you go into aconversation you get a little
tense.
Like even the way you weresaying it I was like, oh, I
could do that.
I wouldn't feel awkward sayingit that way.
So I see what you mean by yourmind and body need to be in sync
(36:48):
to really help you get pastsome of these things too.
Athena Desai (36:52):
What a great, great thing to flag is that when
you're really rooted in yourown body and your own truth and
you have some regulationhappening, it does feel good.
At the very least it doesn'tfeel bad, right.
And when it does feel bad andtense and we're trying to say
(37:14):
the right thing and I mean 10times out of 10, 10 times out of
10, I cannot tell you theamount of times I've had a
client be like, you know, I wantto say this to the person and
they'll just tell me becauseit's a safe space.
I'm not judging them, theytrust me, you know X, y, z.
And then we might spend 20, 30,40 minutes, sort of like
(37:35):
pulling back the layers, whilelike I don't know, I can't
really say that why?
Because this always happens anddah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
When we get back to like whatis going to be said, it's the
original thing, it's the thingthat they said to me when they
felt safe and confident andright every time.
Jess (37:54):
That totally tracks because, to your point, they
felt confident in that.
Athena Desai (37:58):
Yeah, and you can feel that in your body.
You can also feel like you'reabout to throw up, and that
doesn't make it less authenticSometimes, that's, you know that
it's happening, but again, yourown calibration.
Jess (38:10):
Yeah.
Athena Desai (38:11):
Right.
You know that when you show upto conversations like this, you
might have your heart in yourthroat.
Jess (38:18):
It doesn't mean to stop necessarily, and it's a bad
thing because once you get pastit, your body will then go back
to the comfortable balance.
Athena Desai (38:27):
Yeah.
Jess (38:27):
You know, this has been amazing.
Your hacks, your understandingof light within you has been
really enlightening.
I have one last question foryou.
What advice would you offer toour WorkBestie community for
those that are striving toembrace their authentic selves
amongst all of the lifechallenges they have?
(38:48):
What would be that one bit ofadvice?
Athena Desai (38:50):
Develop a practice where you are connecting with
the vibration of unconditionallove and when you can speak to
yourself and all your differentparts from that place.
Game has changed.
Everything is open andavailable to you.
You will figure it out.
And if you can't do that, getsome support.
(39:12):
There's so much support outthere to help you do that.
Jess (39:16):
Athena.
How can people find or look foryou if they're interested in
learning more about this?
Athena Desai (39:23):
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm super happy to connect thatway.
On Instagram, I'msoulfulhealingandcouncil
C-O-U-N-C-I-L is my handle.
Happy to connect that way.
Those are probably the bestways, and my phone number and
email are in both of thoseplaces so you can always reach
(39:43):
out.
We'll link them in our shownotes as well, for all those who
are listening on their commutes.
Jess (39:49):
You'll be able to find it there and connect with Athena.
Athena Desai (39:51):
Wonderful.
Thank you both so much Greatwork.
You do Appreciate it.
Claude (39:57):
Athena, thank you so much.
Really, your journey is reallya testament to the power of
embracing all the aspects ofoneself.
Besties, if you really enjoyedthis episode, like we did, do
not forget to share, like andsubscribe and, in the meantime,
(40:17):
see you next week.
Jess (40:18):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings or just sending
that perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (40:31):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
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