October 6, 2025 • 28 mins
What does it really mean to be an ally at work? And how can we build cultures where everyone feels seen, supported, and empowered?
In this episode of Work Besties Who Podcast, Jess & Claude sit down with Dr. Victoria Mattingly, a behavioral scientist, author, and inclusion strategist who helps organizations turn DEI from theory into daily practice.
Together, they unpack what true allyship looks like — not as a buzzword, but as an everyday commitment. From recognizing privilege to having brave conversations about equity, Dr. Mattingly breaks down how small, intentional actions can shift entire workplace cultures.
She also shares why work besties play a vital role in inclusion — creating safe spaces, amplifying each other’s voices, and modeling what real allyship looks like in action.
💡 What You’ll Learn:
- How allyship drives inclusion, diversity, and equity in the workplace
- The behavioral science behind why inclusion feels hard — and how to make it easier
- Simple, everyday actions that make a real difference
- Why uncomfortable conversations are essential for growth
- How leaders can embed DEI into decision-making and culture
- The powerful link between allyship, mental health, and belonging
- Why your work bestie might just be your greatest ally
🔑 Key Takeaways:
- Inclusion is a choice made in every interaction.
- Allyship is a practice — not a one-time act.
- DEI is good for people and good for business.
- Work besties help create the psychological safety needed for true inclusion.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:00):
Inclusion isn't a checklist.
It's a choice.
You make every meeting, everymoment, every Monday morning.
Today we're joined by Dr.
Victoria Mattingley, aka Dr.
B, a behavioral scientist who'shelped leaders ditch
performative alley ship for realmeasurable impact.
And stay to the end, becausethe question we're asking is one
(00:23):
you'll all want to hear.
What does it actually look liketo be an ally in the moments
that matter most?
Claude (00:30):
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:38):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos, andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties! Welcome.
We're so excited to have you.
Dr.V (00:53):
Thanks so much.
I'm really happy to be here.
Jess (00:56):
Dr.
V.
How do you came to be sofocused on Allieship?
Dr.V (01:01):
I am an organizational psychologist.
And when I started my PhDprogram, I was really focused on
learning and development andthe science of training and
particularly like emotionalintelligence.
You know, how can we helppeople be better leaders, be
more empathetic, be bettercommunicators?
It wasn't until towards the endof my academic training that I
(01:24):
was interning at a leadershipdevelopment company, and they
were just getting started withtheir women in leadership
practice.
So, like programming andassessments and things really
focused around how do we solvethe gender gap and leadership.
And I got really excited,really involved.
I got to work with the CEObecause it was her passion
project.
And I pitched to them becauseif you look at most
(01:47):
organizational hierarchies, thehigher up you go, the less and
less women there are.
So if we don't get men activelyinvolved in these efforts,
we're never gonna make the typeof progress.
So the one is in all thepositions of power, you know,
and like and they've been sortof villainized as part of the
problem.
But what if we instead toldthem what they could do as part
of the solution?
(02:08):
And so I pitched that as mydissertation.
And so they went in for it, andit's still a commercial
product, they sell to this day.
So I built this male executivetraining program to help men be
better allies to advance womenand leadership in the workplace.
So I got to really dig intowhat are the behaviors and the
knowledge and the attitudes thatmen need to be to be allies.
And since then I've definitelyyou know branched out far beyond
(02:30):
gender.
Allyship is truly anintersectional approach to
inclusion and diversity and allthose good things.
That's how I got started onthis journey.
Um, I I didn't know I was gonnago that direction, but I got to
really merge my training inlearning and development with
allyship and inclusivebehaviors, and that's where I've
(02:51):
lived ever since.
And that was almost 10 yearsago now, which is wild.
Jess (02:55):
Definitely opens up a lot of communication and
conversations that we have withwork besties because work
besties can be across differentgenders and different ages and
everything.
We do have uh a lot more womenasking us questions, and one of
the areas that they were mostinterested in is how do they
become leaders and move up inthe ranks because every
organization has opportunitiesto really develop that further.
(03:18):
So, knowing your um yourbackground and some of the
experiences that you have, howhas this overall shaped your
mission?
Dr.V (03:26):
Well, I've I've benefited from allies in a lot of ways.
You know, I am afirst-generation college
student, you know, I neededallies to even get into college,
you know, to figure out how tolive on my own.
Uh, I had allies when I went tomy university, you know, people
that gave me researchopportunities and things that
made me, you know, set up forgrad school.
(03:48):
I had allies that helped methrough the grad school process.
Um, I struggle with mentalillness, and I've had so many
mental health allies that havebeen there for me.
Um, parenthood allies, likewhenever I was the first woman
to have my to have a child in mygraduate program, and there was
no parental leave or maternalleave policy, there was no
precedent for it.
(04:09):
And and I had so many allies.
They got me a researchassistantship instead of a
teaching assistantship, so Icould leave when he came and I
couldn't do that if I wasteaching a class, right?
So I had I've had so manyallies in my life that have
helped me get to where I am, andI also see the value I can
bring as someone who wants to bean ally as well, and and think
(04:31):
about the individuals and groupsthat I can serve, people who
are different than me, so I canleverage that.
I'm a straight white woman witha degree and marriage, like I
have all these privileges.
I have all these privileges, sowhy not try to use those for
good rather than just sitting onmy pile of privileges and
looking down at others?
Jess (04:51):
You're that mentality of payout forward for sure.
Dr.V (04:54):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Jess (04:57):
Yes, you are a white woman with some privilege, um, but
you also are part of differentinclusion groups, right?
Being women is still one ofthem.
So one of the things that we'vebeen um hearing from those that
are in this area of expertiseis people still feel
uncomfortable talking aboutinclusion.
Dr.V (05:17):
I think inclusion is one of the topics people are least
uncomfortable talking aboutbecause we can all agree.
You know, we can all agree wewant to be treated in such a way
that makes us feel valued,respected, seen, and heard.
You know, like we want to feellike we belong and, you know,
and our authentic selves belong.
We don't have to shapeourselves into a certain form to
(05:39):
fit in, you know.
I think people struggle talkingabout diversity, especially
people in majority privilegedgroups don't like having their
identity pointed out.
There isn't a white culture.
Male culture just is culture.
That's why we have thoseaffinity groups, and why you
don't see a white affinity groupor something, an employee
resource group.
(05:59):
I think people areuncomfortable and we don't have
the skills.
Like, this is like a skill set,it's like cultural competence,
having a diversity perspectiveand awareness.
This is a skill set that noone's being taught.
And we've been convinced tobelieve that we just like fit
into these groups, and there'sgood groups, and there's bad
groups, and it's one or theother, and it's a zero-sum game.
(06:20):
And that's just not the truth.
If we work together, we can getso much more accomplished than
we ever could divided.
So I think diversity is hardfor people, equity is really
hard for people.
That's really hard.
There's actually a lothappening right now.
It's been going on for about ayear or two in the Society for
Human Resource Management, andthey've like wiped DEI out of
(06:41):
all of their language, theircertifications, their
conferences.
They have another acronym forit, but like they're even like
watering that down a lot more.
And they they definitely don'ttalk about equity because equity
is calling out things arealready not balanced, they're
not fair as they presentlystand.
People don't want to admitthat.
They want to people want tothink we've had a black
(07:03):
president, like women, womenwork and we are making good
money and like everything'sfixed, you know, but it's not
fixed.
You have to acknowledge thatit's not it's not right, you
know, there's an imbalance, andyou do something to fix the
imbalance, which inherentlydoesn't benefit the current
group that's being benefited,and people get angry, people get
(07:23):
angry.
So I think inclusion is easierto talk about, diversity harder,
and equity is just like adialogue explosion.
Claude (07:32):
How do you put it back into the map?
Because there's still a lot ofwork to be done.
At the end of the day, it's thewording.
How can we get away fromtalking equity but still doing
the work that is needed to bedone?
Dr.V (07:47):
That's exactly what's happening right now.
You know, there were a lot ofpeople doing DEI work over the
last five, six years, and thosepeople didn't just disappear,
their roles did and the titlesdid, but going into people
operations, HR, um, leadership,being an HRBP, a HR business
(08:10):
partner, you know, you could bedoing lots of what is DEI work
just by doing your job.
But you're making sure thatjust as many women are being
interviewed as men.
You know, you're asking thosetypes of questions and you're in
a position to do somethingabout it.
You know, I I've heardanecdotes, people who were in
formal DEI roles are now in likeHRBP roles, and they're like,
(08:33):
we do more DEI work now than weever did in the DEI role.
And the DEI role was likeperformative, you know, like
we're just gonna hire thisperson and say, Yep, we've we
solved DEI because we hired thisperson.
It's like that's not how itworks.
Claude (08:44):
I think that's where the issue is as well, right?
Where there's also thismisconception about what's
really DEI is I think thatthere's misconception of what
really is DE equity andinclusion.
Dr.V (08:59):
I have rephrased it for myself.
I call myself a workplaceinclusion expert, or I'll say
workplace inclusion andallyship.
You know, um, I I don't reallyuse DEI anymore.
And I had a very differentstance on that, like six months,
nine months ago.
I was very much like, no, thisis our field.
No one's gonna tell lawyers ordoctors to like change the name
(09:19):
of their field.
This is what I've been doingfor almost a decade.
I know the importance oflanguage.
You need to be able to callsomething something so people
know what it is, right?
We can't keep changing thename.
But it's become even just themore the acronym than the actual
three words, it's become sovillainized.
It's become a scapegoat.
And I've had people call meracist and sexist.
(09:42):
It's flipped on its head.
People are really angry andthey feel left out and they feel
like DEI means giving peoplefrom underrepresented groups a
leg up.
And in actuality, it's justtrying to level the playing
field.
Like that's it.
And what I really wish I couldget, the point I really wish
could get across is like this isgonna benefit you if and when
(10:05):
that that tilts.
I always say I'll be the firstone on the front lines the day
there's far more women inleadership roles than men,
because it should be close to50-50.
Should be, you know, thatthat's what makes the world a
good place, having thatdiversity of gender, you know,
that that's important.
I'm not saying women shouldtake over.
I'm just saying we should getto parry.
Jess (10:25):
I heard you, um, Dr.
V say in a it was either aprevious tech talk or podcast,
we don't get caught up in thewords because they've changed.
DEI wasn't just the right thingto do, it's the smart thing.
What exactly did you mean bythat?
Dr.V (10:39):
Yeah, there's a lot of data out there that show the
positive business impact thatDEI has on the bottom line.
So even thinking from a talentstandpoint, being able to retain
talent, who's getting peopleare getting value from being
involved in DEI efforts oremployee resource group or
having that part of themselvesseen and taken care of.
(11:02):
People are gonna stay aroundlonger, you're gonna recruit top
talent, you know, you're gonnakeep them.
Also, there's a lot of researchthat shows that diversity is
really beneficial to innovation.
So if you're in a field whereyou're you need to be innovative
and creating new things andthinking outside the box, that's
how we think outside the box,being in a room of people who
aren't like us.
(11:23):
Honestly, there's also there'sso much untapped talent in
certain demographic groups.
I'm thinking particularly womenof color, looking at the
education rates, also thinkingabout when you're from multiple
disadvantaged groups, whatyou've had to do to overcome all
those challenges and barriersand still get to where you are
in your career.
People should be sought out fortheir diversity and it's being
(11:45):
held against them.
Attraction to an organization,shareholders care, stakeholders
care, customers care.
Look what happened with uh withTarget.
Yeah, Target like really hurtfrom getting rid of their DEI
stuff.
People want to spend theirmoney that with or in with
companies that align with theirvalues.
DEI done right is a good way ofdemonstrating, hey, we care
(12:08):
about people for who they are atthis organization, and that
just is good for business.
Jess (12:13):
It's interesting to me, like we're very supportive of
DEI and what that means in inall walks of life, every
organization.
For us, it's very similar towhat we're trying to put forth
too in the workforce around workbesties.
Similar to your challenges,there are some companies that
still are very against havingwork besties or or providing
support for that to occur.
(12:34):
And similar to the stats thatyou're stating, we find in the
work besties who are acrossdifferent ages, different
genders, different generations,we find that they actually bring
more productivity, moreretention.
So similar stats that you'restating, the work bestie element
provides too.
So when you think aboutcorporate culture and
(12:55):
organizations, having someone,whether they're that's their
sole focus or it's integrated,which I feel like might even be
the bigger opportunity, shouldbe layered across every position
versus just a defined position.
What's your thoughts on that?
Or do you feel there needs tobe a defined position for it?
Dr.V (13:14):
So the beauty of allyship and my own like agenda with it
is I did I did some research onwhat actually reduces our
unconscious bias.
And it's not unconscious biastraining.
Unconscious bias training isgreat for us to be aware and how
to not let our biases like itimpact our behaviors or our
decision making, right?
(13:35):
But it doesn't actually reducethe bias that you have towards
whatever group you have.
The one strategy that's beenfound to actually reduce our
biases, it's called exposure.
It's surely hanging out, havinga interaction, a regular
interaction, or building arelationship with someone who is
different than you, who belongsto that group.
(13:56):
So if I have a bias againstwomen leaders, I'm gonna hang
out with a bunch of womenleaders or make a really good
relationship with one, right?
And learn like, well, thisperson doesn't do this or that.
It starts chiseling away atthat because it's unconscious.
And we we can't change ourunconscious, it has to be done
through rewiring our brain andto have an example and a model
(14:17):
of someone who's not fitting inthat stereotype starts chiseling
that away.
So that's my like agenda withallyship.
I'm all about people beingmentors and sponsors and
advocates and cheerleaders andcoaches and guys.
But it's not an ally if thatperson is the same as you.
It's not an ally if you're notactively working across some
(14:39):
difference.
Because the thing aboutallyship, you have to have that
power, that privilege, thatstatus to be able to lend that
to the person.
So if you belong to all thesame groups, there's not that
opportunity to realign thingsthat an ally and a partner can
do.
So I think that's that's reallyan important distinction with
(15:00):
allyship, what makes it specialcompared to just being a good
human to someone else.
Jess (15:06):
Yeah.
I feel like you've just flippedthe script on recommendations
or ideas for work besties as youare thinking about having a
mentor.
Because I think we allgravitate to somebody we either
have some type of connection oralready know, but in in the way
to really push yourself would beto find somebody completely out
of your scope.
Dr.V (15:26):
I I'm a member.
Yeah, I'm a member of anorganization called Blacks in
I.O.
Psychology, IndustrialOrganizational Psychology.
And I joined them right aroundlike 2020, 2021, um, when
everything was happening.
Because I wanted to dosomething involved in a way
that's like meaningful andpurposeful, and I'm very
(15:48):
involved in the IO psychologycommunity.
But the reason I joined is theyhad an ally membership, which
was amazing because I didn'thave to second guess, do I
belong here?
Should I be here?
I don't want to overstep myboundaries.
Like, and so the fact I'm anally member has been just so
wonderful.
But I bring it up because Ijust did their mentorship
program and I had this amazingmentee, and we're still gonna
(16:11):
like keep in touch, like she'son the market right now.
I wish I could do an experimentto see like, was it an even
more effective mentoringrelationship?
Because we are different, youknow.
She is a black woman, I am not.
You know, like was theresomething that about that that
made it even more made it evenbetter?
Like, I I don't know, but Idon't have a comparison, so I
couldn't assess that.
Jess (16:32):
With any mentor mentee relationship, you get out of it
is what you give to, right?
So I'm sure if you feel it,then probably it's true.
Claude (16:39):
I had a question
as optics and not a strategy?
Dr.V (16:46):
One thing that came out of this DEI backlash that we've
experienced over the last yearor so is that now it truly is a
competitive advantage.
Something can't be acompetitive advantage if
everyone's doing it.
And for a while everyone wasdoing it, right?
So now it's more about do youwant this competitive advantage
or not?
Like you have a finite numberof marbles, where are you gonna
(17:08):
put your marbles?
And if they could see that thatwould be a good ROI, a good
benefit.
And I truly believe leadershave to have some sort of values
and alignment with DEI.
That's not something you canteach or change, maybe over
time, or maybe through like um apivotal moment, you know, that
happened.
(17:28):
But I would argue that the onesthat you just can't convince,
that's just that's just a lossfor them.
Whenever my business was at itsheight, our marketing strategy
was very much inbound marketing.
So just put as much content outthere as possible.
Let's let's write the book,like, and then people came to us
because that's the litmus test.
Because DEI work is so hard,and you have to be so committed
(17:51):
to it, get it to work.
I wanted them to seek us out soI knew they were committed
enough to even do that, youknow.
Like I never hard sell DEI.
Um, I think the people who areinclined to have that values
alignment and see it as acompetitive advantage.
I don't think sharing databroadly or research broadly is
(18:12):
helpful because people want toknow, especially leaders, well,
what how would it play out here?
And so, whatever you can do totry to show data or a case study
or a story about how it couldplay out in that organization, I
think that would be morecompelling than just like, oh,
here's all this research becausethey just don't care.
They don't care.
Dr.
Jess (18:31):
Vino you've written a book.
Do you want to share somedetails about the book?
Dr.V (18:35):
Uh, my second book came out this year.
It's called Act Like an Ally,Work with an Ally.
It was actually supposed to bemy first book.
Um, but when me and my bit mythen business partner decided to
write a book, it was 2021.
And at that moment, allyshipdidn't feel appropriate.
Allyship is a more like laterstage DEI strategy.
(18:56):
You have to have thefoundational pieces in place for
allyship to work.
And in that moment, there areall these new DEI functions and
leaders and roles just likepopping up all over the place.
And, you know, as anorganizational psychologist, I
was like, what can we do asbiopsychologists to contribute
to the space right now and likeestablish ourselves as credible
thought leaders and experts, youknow, in this world?
(19:18):
The answer was data-driven DEI.
If we're gonna build a DEIfunction or employee resource
group, how do we decide whichresource groups to start first?
Well, take a survey, see whoraises their hand, see what the
need is, right?
Like what groups are youdealing with?
Who's even in yourorganization?
Do you even know the answer tothat?
The book got had greatreception.
We really was like a resourcethat people use, not just even
(19:41):
in organizations, but in theclassroom as well, which was
like an unexpected surprise.
A lot of uh professors pickedit up.
It's like a secondary text, youknow.
Um, so that was our first book,and in the preface, it says,
this was not supposed to be ourfirst book.
Our first book would be onallyship, right?
So this is that book.
It's a continuation of mydissertation work that I
(20:03):
mentioned earlier.
But as I said, taking a formmore intersectional take on
allyship.
I try to have stories from asmany different identity groups
as possible throughout the book.
The thing that always botheredme with the training that I did
for my dissertation was that Igave these male executives all
these tools and ideas and youknow, prompts to like be better
(20:24):
allies to women in theworkplace.
But imagine you're Susan andyou've been Joe's executive
assistant for 10 years.
And Joe comes in one day andgoes, Susan, I'm ready to help
you grow your career.
I want to be your mentor, yoursponsor, and your cheerleader.
It'll be so great.
And like Susan's likeblindsided from.
I worked here for 10 years,Joe.
(20:45):
Where is this coming from?
So this book is for Susan.
It's for the other side ofallyship.
So it's for both sides.
The act like an ally side, thatbook is out there.
There's lots of great books onhow to be a good ally.
But it I would have done adisservice if I didn't include
that side of the story.
But the other book, when youliterally flip it over, is work
(21:07):
with an ally.
And that's for what I call thepartner, the recipient of
allyship, the person whobenefits from allyship.
Because if allyship truly is atwo-sided relationship, both
parties need to know what to doto make the most out of that
relationship.
And I I remember one of myallies years ago said to me
(21:28):
once, he's like, you know, theonly reason I invest all this
time in you is because youactually go do something with
it.
I get to see what you do withit.
You're actually going places,and and that always stuck with
me.
You know, what can what elsecan I do to be a good partner in
allyship?
And how can I help others dothe same?
Claude (21:46):
That's incredible.
I love this um idea of the bookof having two books.
One is about being an ally, andlike the other one is being the
recipient.
It's really, really different,and you can see like both ways.
Dr.V (21:59):
I like how it's a real visceral experience.
Claude (22:03):
Right.
Dr.V (22:03):
And I reference the book.
So in the partner book, I'llsay, Hey, I'm telling allies on
page A42 to be courageous.
So give them somethingcourageous to do.
And I want them to like flipthe book over and be like,
what's she saying to allies onthat page?
And then you're like flippingit back and forth.
And then when you get to themiddle, it says they just might
(22:26):
end up being an ally to you, andyou flip it over, you just
might end up being an ally tothem because the middle is
actually the end of both books,but it gives you that incentive
to like, oh, maybe I should readthe other book as well.
Jess (22:37):
It's almost a little bit like choose your own adventure,
but you want to do it.
It really is.
Dr.V (22:41):
Okay, it's a little kitschy, but I think it really
demonstrates the core principleof the book is you know, we need
to do this work together, weneed to know what's ex what we
need to bring to the table.
We can't do this work alone,and we need to know both sides
of the story to make it happen.
Jess (22:58):
But your take on it, which is so fascinating, is the fact
that you're showing both sidesof the equation.
So both of them understand whatthe role is of the opposite.
So when they're coming at it,they can think more holistically
versus just here's what I'mbringing to the table.
Dr.V (23:13):
It's exactly why I made it two books in one.
You know, it really brings thatpoint home because I could have
easily just had two separatebooks and just launched them at
the same time, you know, andlike encourage people to buy
both copies, but it would losethat that knowledge and
awareness of you know the otherperson.
And chances are you're gonna bein that role.
(23:34):
Like I think about my formerbusiness partner, you know,
she's a black woman.
So people look at us and think,but Dr.
B is the ally because she's thewhite woman, and which is true
when I can be, but she's been mymotherhood ally, she was my
grievance ally when my fatherpassed away, she was my cancer
ally when I had cancer, she's mymental health ally, she's been
my ally in so many othercapacities.
(23:57):
Um, and I think we worktogether so well is because we
know how to play both of thoseroles as well as we can.
Jess (24:05):
You could be an ally for anything.
I think there are so manythings we're all facing and
challenged with, and havingsomebody support you, it's
critical.
And it's not something any ofus as humans are good about
asking.
The part that I love about thisbook is even if you are an ally
for somebody else, you don'talways recognize when somebody
(24:26):
needs an ally.
So reading the reverse wouldhelp with that too.
I don't have any questionsabout your first book just
because I'm a data-driven girly.
Um, for those who haven't readthat book, please do.
It's called Inclusivity.
One thing that came to mind forme when I was thinking about it
from the work bestieperspective is how can people at
(24:46):
the mid-level help with theseum inclusivity elements that you
were sharing?
Dr.V (24:51):
Yeah, so I think it goes back to the definition of
inclusion, which are thebehaviors that make others feel
valued, respected, seen, andheard.
And the tricky thing aboutinclusion is that that's gonna
vary.
What makes Claude feel includedthat could look very different
from Jess could look verydifferent from me, right?
So really taking the time tolearn about your particularly
(25:13):
your direct reports, you know,you have that power over, you
know, and the allyship reallygets at that power piece.
Um, and learning what doesensure people's voices feel
heard, and how do I make surepeople can show up as the person
they want to be, and and theyfeel like I value their work and
I respect them as a human.
And it takes that extra step toyou know really get to know
(25:35):
each person, and it doesn't haveto be a huge thing either.
It could be very simple in aquarterly meeting or in the
first meeting.
How do you like to berecognized?
What does motivate you?
What's your preferredcommunication style?
Emails, meetings, littlethings, but they all add up.
Um, I think we get hung up thatwe think inclusion is always
(25:55):
this huge gesture, and sometimesit is, but a lot of times it's
actually just small things thatwe can do to make someone feel
seen or appreciated on the otherside.
Claude (26:05):
What shouldn't a manager do anyway?
No matter like being trying tounderstand your yeah,
understanding your employees,how they like to be recognized,
and because we all know, likewhoever did some manager
training, people they likesomething different from the
(26:26):
others.
I think a good manager ingeneral has to learn that and
they have to be present foreverybody.
Dr.V (26:33):
I mean, I've I've said this before, but good leadership
is inclusive leadership.
You know, it's not it's notnew.
The the one lens to put on topof just being a good leader is
the diversity piece.
And that goes back to whatwe're talking about earlier, and
I think that's the part thatpeople are most squeamish with,
but like a truly inclusiveleader acknowledges that the
(26:54):
differences on my team make myteam stronger, and I need to
make sure that we continuehaving that diversity moving
forward.
It's acknowledging that thingsaren't fair and equal, and it's
our role as leaders to try tofix that however we can.
Because social media andcopywriting and marketing, and I
(27:14):
needed someone to help me dothat for Mattingley Solutions,
my company, and she just jumpedright in, and it was a really
great experience.
And it's ironic.
My first business partner was agood friend, like a 25-year
friendship, very good friend,and that did not turn out well.
Did not.
Some people were like, You arejust out of this world for
(27:37):
working with a friend againafter you got so burned the
first time.
And I believe I got burnedbecause he sucked.
It wasn't, it wasn't becauseyou know, the friendship or
whatever.
Nikki's not like that, she's mybestie.
So we worked together, I wantto say, for about a year and a
half.
Um, I've had to like downsize,so she we're not working
(27:57):
together right now.
But she actually got businessfrom a friend of mine because my
my friend really liked what shedid for my company, and now
she's doing it for her companyas well.
So it's great to like see her.
Jess (28:09):
You want an eye for her.
It sounds like it strengthenedyour relationship.
Dr.V (28:13):
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Um, and we still talk almostevery day.
She we both work from home, andI'll I'll take my daily walk
and I'll give her a call.
I I I I know I'm not doneworking in like corporate type
of environments yet, and I amexcited if and when I get that
next job uh to have a workbestie.
(28:34):
And yeah, yeah, for sure.
Claude (28:37):
It makes a whole difference.
Dr.V (28:39):
It really does.
You just like shout on Slack,or you go grab lunch, or you
dish or you complain, orwhatever.
It's so important to haveemotional outlet, social outlet.
Jess (28:50):
Yeah, yeah.
It's that one person that youcan go to and say anything and
not have to worry about thefilter.
Dr.
V, how can people find yourwork?
Whether it's your books, yourcourses, your coaching, or even
some of the speeches that I'veseen of yours that are amazing.
Dr.V (29:03):
Check out my website, MattingleSolutions.com.
Mattingleafsolutions.com slashallyship has all the info about
the book, how you can order it,resources, and also I'm also
really engaged on LinkedIn.
So it's just Victoria Mattinglyon LinkedIn.
Um, feel free to connect andsend me a note.
And um, yeah, I just I lovemeeting new people and I love
(29:26):
getting the word out about thebook.
I truly believe allyship couldbe the next iteration of DEI.
Like DEI as we knew it four orfive years ago, is is no longer.
No, but it's good business,it's good leadership to be
inclusive, to have allies,right?
And so this work's gonnacontinue.
It needs to involve everyone.
(29:48):
And I don't think that was doneright the first time, quite
honestly.
And everyone has a role toplay, whatever identity you sit
in.
Um, and I think allyship couldreally be that that next
iteration of DEI.
Jess (30:00):
What one last question we wanted to ask you.
What does it actually look liketo be an ally in the moments
that matter most?
Dr.V (30:08):
I want to clarify that like moments that matter most
don't necessarily need to be bigmoments or dangerous moments or
risky moments, right?
Like, although it's veryimportant to stand up for others
if you see discrimination orracism or sexism happening, like
absolutely, but I thinkallyship is more likely to
(30:30):
happen in these subtleinteractions we could have with
others.
And so I think that's reallyhow one shows up day to day as
an ally is recognizing whatprivileges do I hold at this
moment, and how can I reachacross difference to bring
someone else along by leveragingthat, you know?
(30:51):
So you have to first identifywhat privileges you hold, and
that's an uncomfortable exercisein and of itself, right?
So that's self-necessaryself-work.
But once you identify and ownit and start flipping the script
of like, this is not somethingI should be ashamed of.
This is something that I canuse to help others and make the
world a better place.
And then just being aware andrecognizing when those
(31:13):
opportunities presentthemselves, and then do whatever
it is.
And sometimes you'll get itwrong, and that's fine too.
You know, at least you tried atthe end of the day, it's the
best we can do.
So that's my answer to thequestion.
Awesome.
Jess (31:26):
Thank you so much.
You bring such like brevity tothis topic.
I feel like some of the peoplewe've had on our podcast,
they've been very fascinating.
And I feel like you'reswitching DEI to allyship is
like such a nice dimension.
Sometimes the topic's heavy,and I think your examples are
like light and bright and all ofthem and relatable, but this is
(31:46):
definitely it feels moreauthentic to the work bestie
community.
Thank you.
Claude (31:51):
And I like what's always like what you say, like
understanding your whiteprivilege and taking that as an
opportunity to give it toothers, and I think that's a
great way of looking at it aswell.
Dr.V (32:03):
I'm trying to get out there, so thanks for amplifying
my message.
I appreciate you both.
Jess (32:07):
Dr.
V, you've brought such amazingdata, um, compassion, heart, and
really helped drive thisconversation around allyship.
Allyship's not aboutperfection, it's practice and
showing up.
So appreciate that.
So if this episode's resonatedwith you guys in the work bestie
community, please share it withyour team, your workplace, your
(32:29):
boss if they they need somesupport, a bestie leader, any
one of us out there.
And definitely remember thatmaking inclusion a verb in your
workplace isn't just a buzzword.
Claude (32:40):
Yep.
And until next time, don'tforget to subscribe, like, and
forward also the podcast to yourbesties.
Until next week, until nexttime, have a good week.
Bye.
Jess (32:54):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending that perfectly timedmeme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (33:07):
So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the
chaos, and of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive, and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties!
Inclusion isn't a checklist.
It's a choice.
You make every meeting, everymoment, every Monday morning.
Today we're joined by Dr.
Victoria Mattingley, aka Dr.
B, a behavioral scientist who'shelped leaders ditch
performative alley ship for realmeasurable impact.
And stay to the end, becausethe question we're asking is one
(00:23):
you'll all want to hear.
What does it actually look liketo be an ally in the moments
that matter most?
Claude (00:30):
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:38):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos, andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties! Welcome.
We're so excited to have you.
Dr.V (00:53):
Thanks so much.
I'm really happy to be here.
Jess (00:56):
Dr.
V.
How do you came to be sofocused on Allieship?
Dr.V (01:01):
I am an organizational psychologist.
And when I started my PhDprogram, I was really focused on
learning and development andthe science of training and
particularly like emotionalintelligence.
You know, how can we helppeople be better leaders, be
more empathetic, be bettercommunicators?
It wasn't until towards the endof my academic training that I
(01:24):
was interning at a leadershipdevelopment company, and they
were just getting started withtheir women in leadership
practice.
So, like programming andassessments and things really
focused around how do we solvethe gender gap and leadership.
And I got really excited,really involved.
I got to work with the CEObecause it was her passion
project.
And I pitched to them becauseif you look at most
(01:47):
organizational hierarchies, thehigher up you go, the less and
less women there are.
So if we don't get men activelyinvolved in these efforts,
we're never gonna make the typeof progress.
So the one is in all thepositions of power, you know,
and like and they've been sortof villainized as part of the
problem.
But what if we instead toldthem what they could do as part
of the solution?
(02:08):
And so I pitched that as mydissertation.
And so they went in for it, andit's still a commercial
product, they sell to this day.
So I built this male executivetraining program to help men be
better allies to advance womenand leadership in the workplace.
So I got to really dig intowhat are the behaviors and the
knowledge and the attitudes thatmen need to be to be allies.
And since then I've definitelyyou know branched out far beyond
(02:30):
gender.
Allyship is truly anintersectional approach to
inclusion and diversity and allthose good things.
That's how I got started onthis journey.
Um, I I didn't know I was gonnago that direction, but I got to
really merge my training inlearning and development with
allyship and inclusivebehaviors, and that's where I've
(02:51):
lived ever since.
And that was almost 10 yearsago now, which is wild.
Jess (02:55):
Definitely opens up a lot of communication and
conversations that we have withwork besties because work
besties can be across differentgenders and different ages and
everything.
We do have uh a lot more womenasking us questions, and one of
the areas that they were mostinterested in is how do they
become leaders and move up inthe ranks because every
organization has opportunitiesto really develop that further.
(03:18):
So, knowing your um yourbackground and some of the
experiences that you have, howhas this overall shaped your
mission?
Dr.V (03:26):
Well, I've I've benefited from allies in a lot of ways.
You know, I am afirst-generation college
student, you know, I neededallies to even get into college,
you know, to figure out how tolive on my own.
Uh, I had allies when I went tomy university, you know, people
that gave me researchopportunities and things that
made me, you know, set up forgrad school.
(03:48):
I had allies that helped methrough the grad school process.
Um, I struggle with mentalillness, and I've had so many
mental health allies that havebeen there for me.
Um, parenthood allies, likewhenever I was the first woman
to have my to have a child in mygraduate program, and there was
no parental leave or maternalleave policy, there was no
precedent for it.
(04:09):
And and I had so many allies.
They got me a researchassistantship instead of a
teaching assistantship, so Icould leave when he came and I
couldn't do that if I wasteaching a class, right?
So I had I've had so manyallies in my life that have
helped me get to where I am, andI also see the value I can
bring as someone who wants to bean ally as well, and and think
(04:31):
about the individuals and groupsthat I can serve, people who
are different than me, so I canleverage that.
I'm a straight white woman witha degree and marriage, like I
have all these privileges.
I have all these privileges, sowhy not try to use those for
good rather than just sitting onmy pile of privileges and
looking down at others?
Jess (04:51):
You're that mentality of payout forward for sure.
Dr.V (04:54):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Jess (04:57):
Yes, you are a white woman with some privilege, um, but
you also are part of differentinclusion groups, right?
Being women is still one ofthem.
So one of the things that we'vebeen um hearing from those that
are in this area of expertiseis people still feel
uncomfortable talking aboutinclusion.
Dr.V (05:17):
I think inclusion is one of the topics people are least
uncomfortable talking aboutbecause we can all agree.
You know, we can all agree wewant to be treated in such a way
that makes us feel valued,respected, seen, and heard.
You know, like we want to feellike we belong and, you know,
and our authentic selves belong.
We don't have to shapeourselves into a certain form to
(05:39):
fit in, you know.
I think people struggle talkingabout diversity, especially
people in majority privilegedgroups don't like having their
identity pointed out.
There isn't a white culture.
Male culture just is culture.
That's why we have thoseaffinity groups, and why you
don't see a white affinity groupor something, an employee
resource group.
(05:59):
I think people areuncomfortable and we don't have
the skills.
Like, this is like a skill set,it's like cultural competence,
having a diversity perspectiveand awareness.
This is a skill set that noone's being taught.
And we've been convinced tobelieve that we just like fit
into these groups, and there'sgood groups, and there's bad
groups, and it's one or theother, and it's a zero-sum game.
(06:20):
And that's just not the truth.
If we work together, we can getso much more accomplished than
we ever could divided.
So I think diversity is hardfor people, equity is really
hard for people.
That's really hard.
There's actually a lothappening right now.
It's been going on for about ayear or two in the Society for
Human Resource Management, andthey've like wiped DEI out of
(06:41):
all of their language, theircertifications, their
conferences.
They have another acronym forit, but like they're even like
watering that down a lot more.
And they they definitely don'ttalk about equity because equity
is calling out things arealready not balanced, they're
not fair as they presentlystand.
People don't want to admitthat.
They want to people want tothink we've had a black
(07:03):
president, like women, womenwork and we are making good
money and like everything'sfixed, you know, but it's not
fixed.
You have to acknowledge thatit's not it's not right, you
know, there's an imbalance, andyou do something to fix the
imbalance, which inherentlydoesn't benefit the current
group that's being benefited,and people get angry, people get
(07:23):
angry.
So I think inclusion is easierto talk about, diversity harder,
and equity is just like adialogue explosion.
Claude (07:32):
How do you put it back into the map?
Because there's still a lot ofwork to be done.
At the end of the day, it's thewording.
How can we get away fromtalking equity but still doing
the work that is needed to bedone?
Dr.V (07:47):
That's exactly what's happening right now.
You know, there were a lot ofpeople doing DEI work over the
last five, six years, and thosepeople didn't just disappear,
their roles did and the titlesdid, but going into people
operations, HR, um, leadership,being an HRBP, a HR business
(08:10):
partner, you know, you could bedoing lots of what is DEI work
just by doing your job.
But you're making sure thatjust as many women are being
interviewed as men.
You know, you're asking thosetypes of questions and you're in
a position to do somethingabout it.
You know, I I've heardanecdotes, people who were in
formal DEI roles are now in likeHRBP roles, and they're like,
(08:33):
we do more DEI work now than weever did in the DEI role.
And the DEI role was likeperformative, you know, like
we're just gonna hire thisperson and say, Yep, we've we
solved DEI because we hired thisperson.
It's like that's not how itworks.
Claude (08:44):
I think that's where the issue is as well, right?
Where there's also thismisconception about what's
really DEI is I think thatthere's misconception of what
really is DE equity andinclusion.
Dr.V (08:59):
I have rephrased it for myself.
I call myself a workplaceinclusion expert, or I'll say
workplace inclusion andallyship.
You know, um, I I don't reallyuse DEI anymore.
And I had a very differentstance on that, like six months,
nine months ago.
I was very much like, no, thisis our field.
No one's gonna tell lawyers ordoctors to like change the name
(09:19):
of their field.
This is what I've been doingfor almost a decade.
I know the importance oflanguage.
You need to be able to callsomething something so people
know what it is, right?
We can't keep changing thename.
But it's become even just themore the acronym than the actual
three words, it's become sovillainized.
It's become a scapegoat.
And I've had people call meracist and sexist.
(09:42):
It's flipped on its head.
People are really angry andthey feel left out and they feel
like DEI means giving peoplefrom underrepresented groups a
leg up.
And in actuality, it's justtrying to level the playing
field.
Like that's it.
And what I really wish I couldget, the point I really wish
could get across is like this isgonna benefit you if and when
(10:05):
that that tilts.
I always say I'll be the firstone on the front lines the day
there's far more women inleadership roles than men,
because it should be close to50-50.
Should be, you know, thatthat's what makes the world a
good place, having thatdiversity of gender, you know,
that that's important.
I'm not saying women shouldtake over.
I'm just saying we should getto parry.
Jess (10:25):
I heard you, um, Dr.
V say in a it was either aprevious tech talk or podcast,
we don't get caught up in thewords because they've changed.
DEI wasn't just the right thingto do, it's the smart thing.
What exactly did you mean bythat?
Dr.V (10:39):
Yeah, there's a lot of data out there that show the
positive business impact thatDEI has on the bottom line.
So even thinking from a talentstandpoint, being able to retain
talent, who's getting peopleare getting value from being
involved in DEI efforts oremployee resource group or
having that part of themselvesseen and taken care of.
(11:02):
People are gonna stay aroundlonger, you're gonna recruit top
talent, you know, you're gonnakeep them.
Also, there's a lot of researchthat shows that diversity is
really beneficial to innovation.
So if you're in a field whereyou're you need to be innovative
and creating new things andthinking outside the box, that's
how we think outside the box,being in a room of people who
aren't like us.
(11:23):
Honestly, there's also there'sso much untapped talent in
certain demographic groups.
I'm thinking particularly womenof color, looking at the
education rates, also thinkingabout when you're from multiple
disadvantaged groups, whatyou've had to do to overcome all
those challenges and barriersand still get to where you are
in your career.
People should be sought out fortheir diversity and it's being
(11:45):
held against them.
Attraction to an organization,shareholders care, stakeholders
care, customers care.
Look what happened with uh withTarget.
Yeah, Target like really hurtfrom getting rid of their DEI
stuff.
People want to spend theirmoney that with or in with
companies that align with theirvalues.
DEI done right is a good way ofdemonstrating, hey, we care
(12:08):
about people for who they are atthis organization, and that
just is good for business.
Jess (12:13):
It's interesting to me, like we're very supportive of
DEI and what that means in inall walks of life, every
organization.
For us, it's very similar towhat we're trying to put forth
too in the workforce around workbesties.
Similar to your challenges,there are some companies that
still are very against havingwork besties or or providing
support for that to occur.
(12:34):
And similar to the stats thatyou're stating, we find in the
work besties who are acrossdifferent ages, different
genders, different generations,we find that they actually bring
more productivity, moreretention.
So similar stats that you'restating, the work bestie element
provides too.
So when you think aboutcorporate culture and
(12:55):
organizations, having someone,whether they're that's their
sole focus or it's integrated,which I feel like might even be
the bigger opportunity, shouldbe layered across every position
versus just a defined position.
What's your thoughts on that?
Or do you feel there needs tobe a defined position for it?
Dr.V (13:14):
So the beauty of allyship and my own like agenda with it
is I did I did some research onwhat actually reduces our
unconscious bias.
And it's not unconscious biastraining.
Unconscious bias training isgreat for us to be aware and how
to not let our biases like itimpact our behaviors or our
decision making, right?
(13:35):
But it doesn't actually reducethe bias that you have towards
whatever group you have.
The one strategy that's beenfound to actually reduce our
biases, it's called exposure.
It's surely hanging out, havinga interaction, a regular
interaction, or building arelationship with someone who is
different than you, who belongsto that group.
(13:56):
So if I have a bias againstwomen leaders, I'm gonna hang
out with a bunch of womenleaders or make a really good
relationship with one, right?
And learn like, well, thisperson doesn't do this or that.
It starts chiseling away atthat because it's unconscious.
And we we can't change ourunconscious, it has to be done
through rewiring our brain andto have an example and a model
(14:17):
of someone who's not fitting inthat stereotype starts chiseling
that away.
So that's my like agenda withallyship.
I'm all about people beingmentors and sponsors and
advocates and cheerleaders andcoaches and guys.
But it's not an ally if thatperson is the same as you.
It's not an ally if you're notactively working across some
(14:39):
difference.
Because the thing aboutallyship, you have to have that
power, that privilege, thatstatus to be able to lend that
to the person.
So if you belong to all thesame groups, there's not that
opportunity to realign thingsthat an ally and a partner can
do.
So I think that's that's reallyan important distinction with
(15:00):
allyship, what makes it specialcompared to just being a good
human to someone else.
Jess (15:06):
Yeah.
I feel like you've just flippedthe script on recommendations
or ideas for work besties as youare thinking about having a
mentor.
Because I think we allgravitate to somebody we either
have some type of connection oralready know, but in in the way
to really push yourself would beto find somebody completely out
of your scope.
Dr.V (15:26):
I I'm a member.
Yeah, I'm a member of anorganization called Blacks in
I.O.
Psychology, IndustrialOrganizational Psychology.
And I joined them right aroundlike 2020, 2021, um, when
everything was happening.
Because I wanted to dosomething involved in a way
that's like meaningful andpurposeful, and I'm very
(15:48):
involved in the IO psychologycommunity.
But the reason I joined is theyhad an ally membership, which
was amazing because I didn'thave to second guess, do I
belong here?
Should I be here?
I don't want to overstep myboundaries.
Like, and so the fact I'm anally member has been just so
wonderful.
But I bring it up because Ijust did their mentorship
program and I had this amazingmentee, and we're still gonna
(16:11):
like keep in touch, like she'son the market right now.
I wish I could do an experimentto see like, was it an even
more effective mentoringrelationship?
Because we are different, youknow.
She is a black woman, I am not.
You know, like was theresomething that about that that
made it even more made it evenbetter?
Like, I I don't know, but Idon't have a comparison, so I
couldn't assess that.
Jess (16:32):
With any mentor mentee relationship, you get out of it
is what you give to, right?
So I'm sure if you feel it,then probably it's true.
Claude (16:39):
I had a question
as optics and not a strategy?
Dr.V (16:46):
One thing that came out of this DEI backlash that we've
experienced over the last yearor so is that now it truly is a
competitive advantage.
Something can't be acompetitive advantage if
everyone's doing it.
And for a while everyone wasdoing it, right?
So now it's more about do youwant this competitive advantage
or not?
Like you have a finite numberof marbles, where are you gonna
(17:08):
put your marbles?
And if they could see that thatwould be a good ROI, a good
benefit.
And I truly believe leadershave to have some sort of values
and alignment with DEI.
That's not something you canteach or change, maybe over
time, or maybe through like um apivotal moment, you know, that
happened.
(17:28):
But I would argue that the onesthat you just can't convince,
that's just that's just a lossfor them.
Whenever my business was at itsheight, our marketing strategy
was very much inbound marketing.
So just put as much content outthere as possible.
Let's let's write the book,like, and then people came to us
because that's the litmus test.
Because DEI work is so hard,and you have to be so committed
(17:51):
to it, get it to work.
I wanted them to seek us out soI knew they were committed
enough to even do that, youknow.
Like I never hard sell DEI.
Um, I think the people who areinclined to have that values
alignment and see it as acompetitive advantage.
I don't think sharing databroadly or research broadly is
(18:12):
helpful because people want toknow, especially leaders, well,
what how would it play out here?
And so, whatever you can do totry to show data or a case study
or a story about how it couldplay out in that organization, I
think that would be morecompelling than just like, oh,
here's all this research becausethey just don't care.
They don't care.
Dr.
Jess (18:31):
Vino you've written a book.
Do you want to share somedetails about the book?
Dr.V (18:35):
Uh, my second book came out this year.
It's called Act Like an Ally,Work with an Ally.
It was actually supposed to bemy first book.
Um, but when me and my bit mythen business partner decided to
write a book, it was 2021.
And at that moment, allyshipdidn't feel appropriate.
Allyship is a more like laterstage DEI strategy.
(18:56):
You have to have thefoundational pieces in place for
allyship to work.
And in that moment, there areall these new DEI functions and
leaders and roles just likepopping up all over the place.
And, you know, as anorganizational psychologist, I
was like, what can we do asbiopsychologists to contribute
to the space right now and likeestablish ourselves as credible
thought leaders and experts, youknow, in this world?
(19:18):
The answer was data-driven DEI.
If we're gonna build a DEIfunction or employee resource
group, how do we decide whichresource groups to start first?
Well, take a survey, see whoraises their hand, see what the
need is, right?
Like what groups are youdealing with?
Who's even in yourorganization?
Do you even know the answer tothat?
The book got had greatreception.
We really was like a resourcethat people use, not just even
(19:41):
in organizations, but in theclassroom as well, which was
like an unexpected surprise.
A lot of uh professors pickedit up.
It's like a secondary text, youknow.
Um, so that was our first book,and in the preface, it says,
this was not supposed to be ourfirst book.
Our first book would be onallyship, right?
So this is that book.
It's a continuation of mydissertation work that I
(20:03):
mentioned earlier.
But as I said, taking a formmore intersectional take on
allyship.
I try to have stories from asmany different identity groups
as possible throughout the book.
The thing that always botheredme with the training that I did
for my dissertation was that Igave these male executives all
these tools and ideas and youknow, prompts to like be better
(20:24):
allies to women in theworkplace.
But imagine you're Susan andyou've been Joe's executive
assistant for 10 years.
And Joe comes in one day andgoes, Susan, I'm ready to help
you grow your career.
I want to be your mentor, yoursponsor, and your cheerleader.
It'll be so great.
And like Susan's likeblindsided from.
I worked here for 10 years,Joe.
(20:45):
Where is this coming from?
So this book is for Susan.
It's for the other side ofallyship.
So it's for both sides.
The act like an ally side, thatbook is out there.
There's lots of great books onhow to be a good ally.
But it I would have done adisservice if I didn't include
that side of the story.
But the other book, when youliterally flip it over, is work
(21:07):
with an ally.
And that's for what I call thepartner, the recipient of
allyship, the person whobenefits from allyship.
Because if allyship truly is atwo-sided relationship, both
parties need to know what to doto make the most out of that
relationship.
And I I remember one of myallies years ago said to me
(21:28):
once, he's like, you know, theonly reason I invest all this
time in you is because youactually go do something with
it.
I get to see what you do withit.
You're actually going places,and and that always stuck with
me.
You know, what can what elsecan I do to be a good partner in
allyship?
And how can I help others dothe same?
Claude (21:46):
That's incredible.
I love this um idea of the bookof having two books.
One is about being an ally, andlike the other one is being the
recipient.
It's really, really different,and you can see like both ways.
Dr.V (21:59):
I like how it's a real visceral experience.
Claude (22:03):
Right.
Dr.V (22:03):
And I reference the book.
So in the partner book, I'llsay, Hey, I'm telling allies on
page A42 to be courageous.
So give them somethingcourageous to do.
And I want them to like flipthe book over and be like,
what's she saying to allies onthat page?
And then you're like flippingit back and forth.
And then when you get to themiddle, it says they just might
(22:26):
end up being an ally to you, andyou flip it over, you just
might end up being an ally tothem because the middle is
actually the end of both books,but it gives you that incentive
to like, oh, maybe I should readthe other book as well.
Jess (22:37):
It's almost a little bit like choose your own adventure,
but you want to do it.
It really is.
Dr.V (22:41):
Okay, it's a little kitschy, but I think it really
demonstrates the core principleof the book is you know, we need
to do this work together, weneed to know what's ex what we
need to bring to the table.
We can't do this work alone,and we need to know both sides
of the story to make it happen.
Jess (22:58):
But your take on it, which is so fascinating, is the fact
that you're showing both sidesof the equation.
So both of them understand whatthe role is of the opposite.
So when they're coming at it,they can think more holistically
versus just here's what I'mbringing to the table.
Dr.V (23:13):
It's exactly why I made it two books in one.
You know, it really brings thatpoint home because I could have
easily just had two separatebooks and just launched them at
the same time, you know, andlike encourage people to buy
both copies, but it would losethat that knowledge and
awareness of you know the otherperson.
And chances are you're gonna bein that role.
(23:34):
Like I think about my formerbusiness partner, you know,
she's a black woman.
So people look at us and think,but Dr.
B is the ally because she's thewhite woman, and which is true
when I can be, but she's been mymotherhood ally, she was my
grievance ally when my fatherpassed away, she was my cancer
ally when I had cancer, she's mymental health ally, she's been
my ally in so many othercapacities.
(23:57):
Um, and I think we worktogether so well is because we
know how to play both of thoseroles as well as we can.
Jess (24:05):
You could be an ally for anything.
I think there are so manythings we're all facing and
challenged with, and havingsomebody support you, it's
critical.
And it's not something any ofus as humans are good about
asking.
The part that I love about thisbook is even if you are an ally
for somebody else, you don'talways recognize when somebody
(24:26):
needs an ally.
So reading the reverse wouldhelp with that too.
I don't have any questionsabout your first book just
because I'm a data-driven girly.
Um, for those who haven't readthat book, please do.
It's called Inclusivity.
One thing that came to mind forme when I was thinking about it
from the work bestieperspective is how can people at
(24:46):
the mid-level help with theseum inclusivity elements that you
were sharing?
Dr.V (24:51):
Yeah, so I think it goes back to the definition of
inclusion, which are thebehaviors that make others feel
valued, respected, seen, andheard.
And the tricky thing aboutinclusion is that that's gonna
vary.
What makes Claude feel includedthat could look very different
from Jess could look verydifferent from me, right?
So really taking the time tolearn about your particularly
(25:13):
your direct reports, you know,you have that power over, you
know, and the allyship reallygets at that power piece.
Um, and learning what doesensure people's voices feel
heard, and how do I make surepeople can show up as the person
they want to be, and and theyfeel like I value their work and
I respect them as a human.
And it takes that extra step toyou know really get to know
(25:35):
each person, and it doesn't haveto be a huge thing either.
It could be very simple in aquarterly meeting or in the
first meeting.
How do you like to berecognized?
What does motivate you?
What's your preferredcommunication style?
Emails, meetings, littlethings, but they all add up.
Um, I think we get hung up thatwe think inclusion is always
(25:55):
this huge gesture, and sometimesit is, but a lot of times it's
actually just small things thatwe can do to make someone feel
seen or appreciated on the otherside.
Claude (26:05):
What shouldn't a manager do anyway?
No matter like being trying tounderstand your yeah,
understanding your employees,how they like to be recognized,
and because we all know, likewhoever did some manager
training, people they likesomething different from the
(26:26):
others.
I think a good manager ingeneral has to learn that and
they have to be present foreverybody.
Dr.V (26:33):
I mean, I've I've said this before, but good leadership
is inclusive leadership.
You know, it's not it's notnew.
The the one lens to put on topof just being a good leader is
the diversity piece.
And that goes back to whatwe're talking about earlier, and
I think that's the part thatpeople are most squeamish with,
but like a truly inclusiveleader acknowledges that the
(26:54):
differences on my team make myteam stronger, and I need to
make sure that we continuehaving that diversity moving
forward.
It's acknowledging that thingsaren't fair and equal, and it's
our role as leaders to try tofix that however we can.
Because social media andcopywriting and marketing, and I
(27:14):
needed someone to help me dothat for Mattingley Solutions,
my company, and she just jumpedright in, and it was a really
great experience.
And it's ironic.
My first business partner was agood friend, like a 25-year
friendship, very good friend,and that did not turn out well.
Did not.
Some people were like, You arejust out of this world for
(27:37):
working with a friend againafter you got so burned the
first time.
And I believe I got burnedbecause he sucked.
It wasn't, it wasn't becauseyou know, the friendship or
whatever.
Nikki's not like that, she's mybestie.
So we worked together, I wantto say, for about a year and a
half.
Um, I've had to like downsize,so she we're not working
(27:57):
together right now.
But she actually got businessfrom a friend of mine because my
my friend really liked what shedid for my company, and now
she's doing it for her companyas well.
So it's great to like see her.
Jess (28:09):
You want an eye for her.
It sounds like it strengthenedyour relationship.
Dr.V (28:13):
Oh, yes, absolutely.
Um, and we still talk almostevery day.
She we both work from home, andI'll I'll take my daily walk
and I'll give her a call.
I I I I know I'm not doneworking in like corporate type
of environments yet, and I amexcited if and when I get that
next job uh to have a workbestie.
(28:34):
And yeah, yeah, for sure.
Claude (28:37):
It makes a whole difference.
Dr.V (28:39):
It really does.
You just like shout on Slack,or you go grab lunch, or you
dish or you complain, orwhatever.
It's so important to haveemotional outlet, social outlet.
Jess (28:50):
Yeah, yeah.
It's that one person that youcan go to and say anything and
not have to worry about thefilter.
Dr.
V, how can people find yourwork?
Whether it's your books, yourcourses, your coaching, or even
some of the speeches that I'veseen of yours that are amazing.
Dr.V (29:03):
Check out my website, MattingleSolutions.com.
Mattingleafsolutions.com slashallyship has all the info about
the book, how you can order it,resources, and also I'm also
really engaged on LinkedIn.
So it's just Victoria Mattinglyon LinkedIn.
Um, feel free to connect andsend me a note.
And um, yeah, I just I lovemeeting new people and I love
(29:26):
getting the word out about thebook.
I truly believe allyship couldbe the next iteration of DEI.
Like DEI as we knew it four orfive years ago, is is no longer.
No, but it's good business,it's good leadership to be
inclusive, to have allies,right?
And so this work's gonnacontinue.
It needs to involve everyone.
(29:48):
And I don't think that was doneright the first time, quite
honestly.
And everyone has a role toplay, whatever identity you sit
in.
Um, and I think allyship couldreally be that that next
iteration of DEI.
Jess (30:00):
What one last question we wanted to ask you.
What does it actually look liketo be an ally in the moments
that matter most?
Dr.V (30:08):
I want to clarify that like moments that matter most
don't necessarily need to be bigmoments or dangerous moments or
risky moments, right?
Like, although it's veryimportant to stand up for others
if you see discrimination orracism or sexism happening, like
absolutely, but I thinkallyship is more likely to
(30:30):
happen in these subtleinteractions we could have with
others.
And so I think that's reallyhow one shows up day to day as
an ally is recognizing whatprivileges do I hold at this
moment, and how can I reachacross difference to bring
someone else along by leveragingthat, you know?
(30:51):
So you have to first identifywhat privileges you hold, and
that's an uncomfortable exercisein and of itself, right?
So that's self-necessaryself-work.
But once you identify and ownit and start flipping the script
of like, this is not somethingI should be ashamed of.
This is something that I canuse to help others and make the
world a better place.
And then just being aware andrecognizing when those
(31:13):
opportunities presentthemselves, and then do whatever
it is.
And sometimes you'll get itwrong, and that's fine too.
You know, at least you tried atthe end of the day, it's the
best we can do.
So that's my answer to thequestion.
Awesome.
Jess (31:26):
Thank you so much.
You bring such like brevity tothis topic.
I feel like some of the peoplewe've had on our podcast,
they've been very fascinating.
And I feel like you'reswitching DEI to allyship is
like such a nice dimension.
Sometimes the topic's heavy,and I think your examples are
like light and bright and all ofthem and relatable, but this is
(31:46):
definitely it feels moreauthentic to the work bestie
community.
Thank you.
Claude (31:51):
And I like what's always like what you say, like
understanding your whiteprivilege and taking that as an
opportunity to give it toothers, and I think that's a
great way of looking at it aswell.
Dr.V (32:03):
I'm trying to get out there, so thanks for amplifying
my message.
I appreciate you both.
Jess (32:07):
Dr.
V, you've brought such amazingdata, um, compassion, heart, and
really helped drive thisconversation around allyship.
Allyship's not aboutperfection, it's practice and
showing up.
So appreciate that.
So if this episode's resonatedwith you guys in the work bestie
community, please share it withyour team, your workplace, your
(32:29):
boss if they they need somesupport, a bestie leader, any
one of us out there.
And definitely remember thatmaking inclusion a verb in your
workplace isn't just a buzzword.
Claude (32:40):
Yep.
And until next time, don'tforget to subscribe, like, and
forward also the podcast to yourbesties.
Until next week, until nexttime, have a good week.
Bye.
Jess (32:54):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending that perfectly timedmeme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (33:07):
So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the
chaos, and of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive, and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties!
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