June 16, 2025 • 42 mins
This week, Jess & Claude are joined by Alan Lazaros and Kevin Palmieri from Next Level University—two long-time friends and business partners who have recorded over 2,000 episodes and built a movement around personal development and daily growth.
Tune in as we dive into:
- How their friendship is the foundation of everything they’ve built.
- Why being vulnerable and open is essential in leadership.
- The daily grind of content creation—and how they’ve stayed consistent for nearly a decade.
- What’s changed (and what hasn’t) in podcasting since 2015.
- Their mission to help others grow by 1% every day.
- The importance of having a bestie who gives honest feedback and lifts you up.
- How they’re giving back through a charity for single parents.
If you’re building with a bestie or dreaming of launching something with impact—this episode will remind you that the journey is better (and more powerful) when you do it together.
🎙️ Now streaming on Apple, Spotify, and all major podcast platforms.
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Please rate, comment and provide suggestions for upcoming episodes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:00):
Hello WorkBesties.
Today we have Alan and Kevin,and their story is a testament
to the strength of theirfriendship, as well as a shared
purpose.
But what key lesson did theylearn about balancing personal
growth as well as maintainingthat supportive friendship?
You're going to have to stay tothe end to find that out.
Claude (00:18):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:26):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties Welcome to WorkBesties, kevin and Alan.
It's so nice to meet you.
Kevin Palmieri (00:42):
Thank you so very much for having us.
We're excited to chat with dualpodcast hosts like we are and
dual work besties.
Yes, 100%.
Alan Lazaros (00:50):
You two know the deal of being work besties.
A lot of people told us in thebeginning don't do it, it won't
work out, and we're verygrateful we stuck with it
because this is awesome.
Thank you so much for having us.
Kevin Palmieri (01:06):
Why don't you two talk about how you two
started?
I was somewhat successful in mycorporate America career, but
success externally led to a lotof stuff that I was dealing with
internally, so I went throughsome mental health problems.
I had some suicidal ideations,ended up starting a podcast.
I didn't know anything aboutpodcasting before Alan
introduced me to interview styleYouTube channels because he had
me on his YouTube channel Fellin love with that whole thing.
(01:30):
I always wanted to help people.
I just never knew how I wantedto do.
It Started my podcast.
Alan was the first guest that Ihad Ended up dealing with some
suicidal ideations and mentalhealth problems at my job.
I left my job in 2018.
And then Alan and I partneredup together because he was my
mentor at the time.
He was the person who knew waymore about self-improvement, way
(01:54):
more about business.
Obviously, I'm taller andbetter looking than he is, so
that has really worked out in myfavor over the years.
You and Andy Yang yeah, youhave to have that, claude, it's
very important, right?
But we had a very similarthought process of what got us
in trouble in life was lack ofclarity, it was lack of
(02:17):
self-improvement and it was lackof personal development.
So if we could bring that tothe world through a podcast,
that would be the thing that wecould do.
And now, as of today, werecorded our 2000th episode
right before this.
So we've been doing this since2018, full time since 2017.
Jess (02:34):
We have a podcast all about self-improvement.
Thank you, I appreciate it verymuch.
Huge kudos for those that arenot in podcasting, which the
number that don't even make itto 50, is pretty astronomical,
the fact that you're at 2000.
Kevin Palmieri (02:46):
Wow, Well, I think it speaks to how lucky we
are to have each other.
I like to think that I wouldhave gotten here without Alan.
There's no way I would have.
I probably wouldn't have gottenpast 15 or 20.
Alan, I think, would have beenway more successful alone than I
would have been successfulalone, but we've definitely
helped each other.
Stay consistent, for sure.
Claude (03:06):
That reminds me of Jess and I Like Jess, I'm sure would
be more successful by herselfthan me, by myself.
Kevin Palmieri (03:15):
So you're me, Claude.
Jess (03:16):
That's nice.
I'm Kevin.
It's the yin and the yang weneed each other to help.
Exactly 2,000 episodes.
What was the podcasting worldlike eight years ago?
Kevin Palmieri (03:34):
There were far less podcasts.
The whole video thing wasn'treally a thing.
Nobody was doing virtualinterviews.
So, yeah, I think there was alot of people just kicking the
tires on what this newish thingcould be.
The thing that was beneficialfor us is not a lot of people
were taking it that seriously.
We started, we went all in, wewere traveling to interview
people, we were spending lots ofmoney that we didn't have.
We were doing all this stuff,and I think the other important
(03:56):
piece is 2017, 2018, it was, Iwon't say, a lot easier to get
big guests, but there weren't asmany people reaching out to
them.
Now people are just gettingbombarded with messages, so I
think the playing field was alittle bit more level back then.
Alan Lazaros (04:17):
Did I miss anything, alan?
I think social media wasdifferent back then.
For sure, instagram was stillreally really useful and it's
not not useful Now.
We still use it.
We use Instagram, facebook,whatsapp.
We use LinkedIn as well, butInstagram was, I mean you could
could DM an author and get.
They'd get back to you that day.
Now again, I think part of thatwas cause I had a following and
(04:38):
I was in fitness and I was afitness model.
I mean, we were getting DMSfrom listeners regularly,
constantly, and we didn'trealize at the time that that
wasn't normal right.
So we went from the first yearwe only did 1,054 listens to the
second year we did like 25,000.
Our growth rate was nuts backthen.
Now we're much more successful175 countries, 2,000 episodes.
(04:59):
But it's definitely a differentgame now, for sure.
Claude (05:06):
So it was easier to really establish yourself back
then and then grow at the sametime as the podcast world was
growing.
Kevin Palmieri (05:09):
Back then people weren't starting podcasts to
make them into businesses.
Some people were, becausethere's always going to be
people ahead of the curve onthat.
But most people were like, letme see what happens with this.
So I think the failure rateback then it's high today, but
it was different back then.
It was just if you could beconsistent and you were
committed, you were alreadygoing to get ahead of most
(05:29):
people.
There's two of us, so if you'regoing to work for 16 hours,
we're going to work for 16 hourstimes two.
So it's going to be really hardto keep up with that.
Claude (05:38):
So, for our listeners, what is the name of your podcast
?
Kevin Palmieri (05:42):
It is called Next.
Alan Lazaros (05:43):
Level University, next Level U.
Next Level University, nextLevel U.
Pun intended, so I'm Alan,version 3.6.
I'm 36, even though I look 15.
Kevin is 35.
Kevin version 3.5.
That joke.
I used to say I'm hoping to hitpuberty at 37, but now I got a
little mustache going.
Claude (06:00):
Can't say that anymore.
Alan Lazaros (06:01):
Yeah yeah, thank you.
First mustache at 36.
Seriously, it was a big dealfor me, but anyways.
So Next Level University, it's1% improvement in your pocket,
heart-driven, but no BS.
Holistic self-improvement fordream chasers it's anyone who
has an aspiration or a dream,who wants to get to the next
level of their life love, healthand wealth.
So self-improvement in yourpocket, from anywhere on the
(06:21):
planet, completely free.
It's on the deepest level.
It's Kevin and I are the malerole models we never had growing
up.
I think that's the deeperpurpose underneath it, because
we both grew up without fathers.
But I think that it's that 1%improvement per day thing of
just you need to be inspired,motivated and educated a little
bit each day.
You're not going to change yourwhole world overnight, but you
(06:42):
can get a little better each dayand if you do the math on that
I'm a big engineering math guyit changes everything.
I mean our life is night andday, compared to when we both
had what we call our quarterlife crises.
Kevin mentioned suicidalideation.
I had my car accident and so weboth grew up in the same town.
Both grew up without fathers.
My father passed away when Iwas two.
His father he met when he was27 for the first time, when we
(07:03):
were both in our mid-20s.
He had suicidal ideation, so hefaced mortality and I got in
that car accident.
My dad died in a car.
That just flipped the scriptfor me.
After that we reconnected.
We were friends in middleschool.
He didn't like me in highschool and I didn't like that,
he didn't like me, so we didn'tget along.
And then we reconnected in ourmid-20s and we started spending
Father's Days together EveryFather's Day.
(07:23):
We have been doing that eversince, so we've spent every
Father's Day together for eightyears.
We used to fish.
Now we have a charity forsingle parents, children of
single parents, called the NextLevel Hope Foundation.
But essentially we just 1%improvement every single day.
That's our motto and we aretrying to lead by example and
help people grow a little biteach day, not just in success
(07:46):
and wealth, but in health andfitness and in their intimate
relationship as well.
Because we were both broke as ajoke and single as hell back
then and really wildlyunfulfilled.
Kevin Palmieri (07:56):
So we were in really good shape, though at the
time we were in really goodshape, so notice how I left that
one out.
Alan Lazaros (08:00):
Drop that in, by the way, that's the only thing
that hasn't gotten better, to behonest, and we do an episode
every day.
Kevin Palmieri (08:08):
I know you asked about the frequency of an
episode.
Every day.
Every day Christmas, birthdays,holidays, sunday, it doesn't
matter.
There's an episode droppingevery day.
Jess (08:17):
And do you guys pre-record , or are they on every day?
Kevin Palmieri (08:26):
Monday was the day we record.
We try on mondays, what it'scalled marathon mondays.
We would try to record sevenepisodes.
I'd come out of the office andgo see my wife and she said how
many did you get done?
Just one, yeah.
We had a lot of a lot ofbusiness talks today, so we used
to batch them.
We would try to do it all inone sitting.
Now today's friday, so werecorded tomorrows and Sundays
right before this.
Claude (08:42):
Content is always so hard right, Especially at one a
day.
So how do you keep up withstaying fresh and relatable,
always going with your theme ofthat 1%?
Alan Lazaros (08:59):
The benefits of being holistic self-improvement
is that we health, wealth andlove.
While that seems narrow, we getto talk about kind of whatever
we want.
There's a lot that can fit intoeach of those right.
So we can talk fitness, we cantalk consistency, community.
We can talk about a lot ofthings.
So that's number one.
We're narrow enough to bemeaningful, but wide enough to
where we can actually do anepisode every day.
(09:20):
What does our listener need?
What do we want to talk about?
Because if we don't havepassion, it's not going to flow
and what's going to actually beclicked on?
So those are sort of the three,based on our understanding of
our listener now, and that'sevolved a lot over the years,
obviously.
So Kevin and I are growing andAlan, version 3.6, and Kevin,
version 3.5, are not passionateabout the same things we are.
(09:42):
Self-improvement is the throughline, so that's never changed.
But we're both much more inbusiness right now.
So we have to, we have to try totake okay, what are you reading
?
All right, what am I reading?
All right, I'm reading thisbook.
Okay, what's the concept?
Boom, boom, boom.
So we try to keep it fresh andthat's actually why we don't
batch, because we've tried we'veliterally tried to batch 14
episodes.
So he went to Scotland lastyear.
We had to batch I think 21episodes is the most we've ever
(10:04):
batched and it was hard becauseit wasn't as fresh.
We also and I got to be verytransparent about this kind of
have no life I'm joking.
We work really hard and we worksix days a week front facing,
and then we still work onSundays too.
So our model doesn't work foreverybody and we're definitely
workhorses that came fromnothing.
So that's a part of it too thatwe got to be just transparent.
Jess (10:25):
You commented about.
You've got a lot of clients.
Do you try and take what'sgoing on in your life with these
clients and make that a part ofthe main focus?
Alan Lazaros (10:33):
Constantly.
Jess (10:35):
Okay, so that kind of keeps it fresh too, I would
assume.
Kevin Palmieri (10:40):
We're very different.
We are polar opposites, butvery similar.
It's very strange how thiswhole thing has worked out.
I'll have a story and then I'llthink like what could I do a
podcast episode on that?
How could I make that an episode?
So I was going shopping onetime.
It was around the holidayseason.
I went to Target in DecemberWorst idea ever of all time,
(11:02):
don't do that.
But there was a guy helping meand he's like yeah, let me run
to the back and grab your stuff.
And he was very clearlyoverwhelmed, he was very clearly
overworked, he was stressed out.
There probably had been somepeople that weren't super nice
to him.
And he came over and when hewent to give me my bags, we like
held hands for a second becauseI was trying to grab the bags
and he's like oh, I'm so sorry'mso sorry, man.
(11:23):
I was like, hey, you're good.
Like thank you so much for yourhelp, I appreciate it so much.
And we formulated an episode oflike humility out of that.
Is there any reason for me tofurther make that person's life
slash day hard?
No, it's not that big of a deal.
What are we doing here?
So I usually come with a storyand then we'll make an episode.
(11:43):
Alan usually comes with alesson and then we'll make an
episode from that.
So I'm story first, alan islesson first.
So as long as I'm experiencinglife.
We'll have a story.
Alan's always learning, sowe'll always have something.
Yeah, it has to be somethingthat we actually want to talk
about.
We used to be the podcast who Iwould do research and SEO, like
(12:03):
what titles work, and we don'tdo that as much now.
I think it's very important inthe beginning, but now it's like
I'm going to title it thisbecause that's what we talked
about, and is it the best, mostsearch engine friendly one?
Probably not, but I want tomake sure that we're doing it in
the way that we want to do itnow, more than playing the game,
(12:23):
and that's been a big shift forus.
Jess (12:27):
That's an area where you can get to and you've built
quite the community.
Kevin Palmieri (12:30):
Yeah, don't do that in the beginning.
Jess (12:34):
All you podcasters, please note build your community first
.
Kevin Palmieri (12:37):
Yeah, you've got to learn that stuff and see
what works and see what doesn't,and we're privileged, through
work, in things that we can testnow versus in the beginning.
Alan Lazaros (12:51):
Go ahead.
Alan.
I'm starting BGU, so NLU isNext Level University Podcast.
Growth University is hispodcast because he's the podcast
guy.
And then I have Business GrowthUniversity starting this year
because I'm the business guy,and so we call them listeners,
longers and business owners.
So listeners want to learn fromus, longers want to build their
own podcasts in their owncommunities, and then business
owners are people who, like us,are screwed if they don't
generate revenue, and so I coachthe business owners.
Some business owners want tostart a podcast for marketing
(13:12):
and branding.
Some podcasters need to build abusiness, otherwise they go out
of business.
At this stage, I think Kevin'smastered the title so much and
so well that he can real quickdo things.
Jess (13:24):
Do what the rest of us do and just search the SEO terms.
Alan Lazaros (13:26):
Yeah, which, in the beginning, like I think his
brain is really good at goingokay, this is going to land with
our audience, this is what willland with SEO and this is what
we know.
Okay, boom.
And half the time I don't evenagree with the title, but I also
know that I'm an engineer andno one cares about what I care
about.
We figured out he's good withpeople and I'm good with systems
and structure and metrics, andevery business needs both.
(13:46):
By the way, if I can give alittle side tangent, every
business needs to be really,really, really good at these two
things systems, metrics,structures, discipline, boom
boom, organization.
That's me, definitely.
And then the other one iscreative and with people.
So kevin's really good withpeople.
Everyone likes him, nobodylikes me.
He's good with people and he'sreally good and very, very
(14:08):
creative.
I'm the metrics and system.
I mean he tracks 18 metrics and19 habits I think 18 as of
today.
But that's not because of him,it's because-.
Kevin Palmieri (14:17):
Yeah, and I don't want to do that.
I don't want to, but I have to.
Alan Lazaros (14:20):
Right.
So the train tracks are set upfor success and then the
creativity.
He flows within those traintracks.
Jess (14:26):
A topic that we in the WorkFesty platform talk about a
lot.
You both are a yin and a yangright.
You compliment each other, andit feels like the same thing is
really necessary in a businesspartnership too.
So, because you guys arefriends, what are some
challenges, or maybe even hacksyou find are helpful because of
(14:49):
your friendship with businesses?
Alan Lazaros (14:53):
I'm going to make this sound wrong, I'm going to
just own it.
So I'm a type A.
I got all my awards in thebackground.
I'm a type A.
I always have been.
I've been hiding it and toocowardly to say it, but I always
have been.
So make sure your yin isyanging.
So I'm not as creative.
I'm an engineer Everything'snumbers, everything's metrics,
everything's structure.
That's who I am and I thinkbusiness needs that.
(15:15):
But it also needs creative anda people person.
Kevin and I are polar oppositesin our thinking.
He's short-term, I'm long-term,actively paranoid and humble.
I'm long-term, optimist andwe've switched in certain
situations, especially when itcomes to people.
But ultimately we have a yinand a yang and that's great.
But one of the things that issimilar is our core values.
(15:35):
We both came from very little.
We both were broke as a jokewhen we were younger and I told
him this.
I said, kev, I never could workwith you if you had any level
of entitlement.
We are earners to our core andif you don't have humility and
work ethic and you want bigrewards for minimal effort, you
just will never like us.
Because we aren't that way.
We have a culture in our companyand in our blood, for lack of
(15:59):
better phrasing just ourupbringing of earn every dollar.
There is no quick fix, there isno shortcut, there is no know
your value and charge 10 grandeven though you've never done
this before type of stuff insideof us.
Like we both started coachingfor free and then it was 50
bucks a week and then it was 75and then it was up from there
and so we built this, coming upon a half million dollar
business, which is awesome, butlike we started from nothing,
(16:22):
literally and figuratively.
And I think the core value thatwe have in common is impact
first, money second Okay, youcan't have money last because
you'll go out of business.
But impact is first Heartdriven, but no BS, self
improvement.
And I would say we're similarin our core but we're very
different in our thinking.
Kevin Palmieri (16:43):
I have an answer , and it's an answer in the
direction you wanted it, jess,because that sounded supremely
positive, which it is for themost part.
I'll come to Alan and I'll belike brother, are you sitting
down?
I have the best idea maybeyou've ever heard in your entire
life and it's maybe the dumbestidea that has ever been spoken
audibly, ever, ever.
(17:08):
Sometimes my creativity getsthe best of me and I will do
things that are not necessarilybest for momentum, but it's like
this seems like a really goodopportunity.
Why aren't we doing this?
We could have an ice creamtruck.
Why don't we do that?
Everybody needs ice cream.
And Alan's like Kev holisticself-improvement for dream
chases.
Okay, cool.
So I'm a pain in the butt thatway for sure.
Alan is essentially my boss.
I know it might not seem likethat, but he is and he's the CEO
(17:33):
and he's the leader for areason.
Sometimes that sucks when itgoes from like we're supposed to
record from 6 to 7 pm and thenit goes from 7 to 8 pm.
It's like that kind of sucksand very quickly I get over it
because I'm way more gratefulfor the benefits than that
slight pain in the buttinconvenience.
(17:53):
So I think, without the upsidethe downside would kind of stink
.
But without the downside youwouldn't get the upside.
Jess (18:03):
Right.
Kevin Palmieri (18:04):
As long as the benefits outweigh whatever else.
You're dealing with and youhave gratitude.
I have gratitude for the factthat Alan is such a great leader
.
I would have crashed into theiceberg, backed up and crashed
into the iceberg again.
We would be in trouble if I wasrunning this.
But you should have ice foryour ice cream.
I would Thank you See A lot ofpeople.
I really like that positivemindset Smell ice can you?
(18:27):
That's what I need.
Alan Lazaros (18:29):
A little.
Kevin Palmieri (18:29):
Titanic reference.
Over the last eight years, Ithink we've just we just have
gotten to learn each other andwe know each other at a really
deep level.
And you know, I know Alandoesn't like when I talk about
him as the leader, the greatleader that he is.
He gets nervous.
That's my job to tell peopleabout that, because he won't say
it himself.
So, yeah, we have a wonderfulthing, but wonderful things do
(18:50):
come with inconveniences attimes.
At what point in life are younot going to have some
inconveniences?
At least they're the higherquality ones, as of today,
Claude, I saw you grinning earto ear.
Jess (18:59):
I want to hear your perspective Again.
Kevin Palmieri (19:01):
I'm going to say I'm kidding, I figured, Claude,
I figured.
When you started smiling I waslike that's.
Claude (19:07):
Except that Jess also has the relationship with the
people as well.
Right, depends.
Yeah, I'm the Kevin.
Jess is really the organizer,the number person.
Jess (19:20):
She calls me, miss Bossy, that's what.
Claude (19:22):
I get.
Jess (19:25):
I'm called.
Claude (19:26):
CEO.
So you're lucky.
No, I'm saying CEO.
No, no, I would say CEO.
It's actually funny, becauselast time we were having drinks
and something came up, I'm like,yeah, you're bossy.
Since then she takes it.
She's like there's bossy here,but thank God for Jess, because
if it was just me, we'd benowhere.
I would still be on my couchsending each other memes.
Alan Lazaros (19:49):
It's going to be very uncomfortable for you to
allow her to say that right.
For the longest time, I wantedto save Kevin from admitting
some of those things, but that'strue humility, that's
vulnerability and that's courage.
The truth is, kevin was goingto be successful, but he wasn't
going to be this successful, andyou're not really allowed to
(20:10):
say that socially, which is whyeveryone doesn't like me.
Jess (20:12):
Or it wouldn't be as fun.
Alan Lazaros (20:14):
Well, it definitely wouldn't be as fun,
he's hilarious, I wouldn't be assuccessful.
Kevin Palmieri (20:18):
I mean I guarantee this ice cream truck
thing could take off right.
It could Next level ice cream,it's true.
Alan Lazaros (20:26):
So one thing that I really want to make as clear
as I can, because I think thisis a golden nugget that I would
have wanted and I'm going togive it to you just I had kevin
rate me from zero to ten on alist of intimidation signs of an
intimidating character I'm tooscared to do that.
There's 30 character traits Ican send them to, and he gave me
the lowest score I got on.
(20:48):
Any of the 30 is an eight, andso it was.
9.5 was the average.
I added them all up in anaverage.
One of the things that I'llshare with everybody is that
everyone I've ever coached Icoached 25 people currently and
it's been hundreds over theyears and I've been coaching for
mentoring for 10 years,coaching for thousands and
thousands of hours.
I have them all tracked.
Mentoring for 10 years,coaching for eight, thousands
(21:08):
and thousands of hours.
I have them all tracked and I'mnot saying that to brag.
I'm saying that so that youknow I'm not just talking.
The thing that I've found isthat everyone is better at one
thing or the other.
So you are either really goodat success and you have a lot of
self-belief, and you're reallygood at systems and structure
and success and organizationtype A, what's known as
conscientiousness in the Hexacopersonality test, which Jess
(21:30):
probably is or you're reallygood at relationships.
Now, a lot of people who aretype A.
We learn how to chameleon andhow to dim ourselves to try to
get along with people, but weintimidate the hell out of
people when we are our trueselves.
So we basically usually shrinkand we pretend not to believe in
ourselves.
We make fun of ourselves allthe time and it makes us
(21:51):
socially accepted and it makesus feel like we belong.
But then behind the scenes,we're just like let's go, baby,
let's do it Right.
See, it's resonating.
Jess (21:58):
This is literally me every day.
Alan Lazaros (22:00):
This is a story that I think will make this land
better than I can ever havearticulated in the past.
Kevin and I interviewed someonenamed Stephen Kotler, so he
wrote a book called the Art ofImpossible and this was back in
2019.
And Kevin and I interviewed himfor, I think, episode six.
And around that time, everyFather's Day we would spend
together and we'd go fishing andthere was this Father's Day
sort of family barbecue that wewere at where I used to live and
(22:23):
Kev said dude, I feel like Ibelong at the barbecue.
I don't feel like I belong withSteven Kotler.
Steven Kotler, peak performance,the art of impossible.
I mean heat flow.
I mean it's the researchcollective of just type A's,
basically super achievers, howto do the impossible it's never
been done.
The Michael Phelps of the world.
And I said, kev, I don't feellike I belong here at all.
(22:44):
I mean, stephen Kotler and Iwere like kids in a candy store
talking peak performance, andfor us that was a really big
moment because that was whenKevin and I realized we were
trying to be like each other andwe were never going to win at
that game.
I wanted to be like, I wasjealous of how likable this dude
is.
Everyone loves Kev.
We'd give the same speech I'mtelling you mine was better and
(23:06):
everyone would love him and hateme.
Jess (23:09):
It totally feels like my life.
Alan Lazaros (23:10):
Right and it's like what I added more value.
This was more valuable.
Speech Doesn't matter, right?
He's a likable guy.
He's relatable and likable.
I'm not relatable or likable,so I have to just lean into that
and be okay with it, becauseI'm a statistical anomaly.
I'm an engineering thinker andI'm very, very rare.
(23:34):
The point is, kev was afraid tonot be respected and not be
admired for being an achiever,and I was afraid to be hated my
entire life.
So we both had to face ourdeepest fear.
His deepest fear was not beinggood enough.
My deepest fear was basicallybeing ostracized socially
because I don't relate wellpeople.
When I try to relate, they cantell it's not authentic I can
fit in with people and make themfeel comfortable.
Jess (23:52):
I don't feel authentic they don't notice it, but it's
amazing because you're justjealous.
Claude (23:57):
You're still, you're likable I mean.
Alan Lazaros (24:01):
But how do you know that that likability isn't
manufactured by her dimming?
A lot of the things that I'vesaid here are not likable things
to say and that takestremendous social courage.
So Kevin's needed competencecourage.
He needed to do the speech,write the resume, do the cover
letter, try the thing I neededto have social courage.
Social courage to.
(24:21):
For me, vulnerability isactually owning who I am and
owning the contrast of who I am.
It's very scary and I knowthat's resonating.
Jess, you know what?
I'm not that great and you knowwhat.
And he is great.
That's the truth.
But he needs to own that.
He's not type A.
Claude (24:38):
Is it really not like you're afraid of not being great
?
It's you not believing thatyou're great?
Because it's really different,because you can be great but not
believing it?
Kevin Palmieri (24:53):
I think for me it's both.
So when I was young, my dadleft and I think there was a
part of me that internalizedthat as well.
If I was better, smarter,whatever he would have stayed
around Again.
I'm a baby, so that's kind ofout of my control, but I didn't
know that at the time.
So that became the record thatplayed in my head is I'm not
(25:13):
good enough, I'm not smartenough, I'm never going to be
successful.
Nobody in my family had acollege education.
We were broke.
There wasn't a lot of hope.
It just didn't seem like therewas a lot of hope.
In high school I was really goodat baseball Claude All-star
captain of the team but Ithought I just got luckier more
often than other people.
So I had this record of I'm notgood enough, I'm not smart
(25:37):
enough.
I get lucky, I guess when itcomes to things.
No, my biggest fear is failure.
My biggest fear is going andgiving a speech and making a
mistake or bombing.
That's like my deep fear.
Now I think I'm getting to theplace where I feel fairly yeah,
I feel very competent in thisLike this is well within my
(25:57):
comfort zone, but I still haveanxiety around things that I'm
doing for the first time.
I would guarantee that I didmore research of you guys than
Alan did, because I like thecertainty.
I need to know who I'm talkingto.
I need to know what you do inthe world.
I need to look at your socialmedias.
That's as much about trying tobe a consummate professional as
it is.
It gives me certainty andconfidence in what I'm doing.
(26:20):
So my deepest fear is rejectionnot being good enough, not
being smart enough.
I still deal with that to thisday.
Claude (26:27):
Judging subject what do you think of our Instagram?
Kevin Palmieri (26:34):
Literally.
Jess (26:35):
Claude leads the Instagram , in case you're wondering.
Kevin Palmieri (26:38):
Claude, the first thing I thought is they're
really good at marketing.
That was the first thing Ithought, like you guys are
really good at marketing, yourpage does a really good job of
promoting the podcast byindirectly promoting the podcast
.
So yeah, I was pleasantlysurprised.
As of today, I've been on 985other podcasts.
(26:59):
You're in the top 5% of socialmedias I've seen.
Claude (27:05):
Oh, we got a ton of time Strong word night Jess, it's
together problem, Strong wordnice, jess, it's together, it's
not just me right.
Strong word, both of you.
Jess (27:13):
Yeah, we do it.
Alan Lazaros (27:14):
One thing if I can extend an olive branch is Kevin
is better at social media thanI am, because Kevin understands
people and the way they thinkmore than I do.
So, jess, the fears that hetalked about, fear of failure
like, we don't have as much of afear of failure, we just think,
okay, we'll just fail forward,fail forward, fail forward.
Jess (27:32):
Keep going and check the numbers Exactly.
Okay, this will work.
Alan Lazaros (27:35):
We have a fear of success and give me a minute,
okay.
Whenever we shined, ourrelationships would suffer, so
we've been conditioned to notshine unless someone else is
with us.
So this is landing, okay.
Jess (27:50):
Walk me through that, because that's fascinating to me
, because one of the values ofus creating this work bestie
community is to rely on eachother, to raise each other up,
which you want to successfullyachieve growth, both of you Now
not everyone owns a businesstogether, so sometimes it's not
going to be as succinct as that,but you would hope of those
(28:10):
that do work together or decideto work together, that would be
their greatest success in life,and they'd be so Well I think to
the yin and yang conversation,to you two's strength, what I've
come to understand over yearsand years of trying to coach and
help different types ofindividuals.
Alan Lazaros (28:26):
Some are type A, like you, jess, and what I need
to do with you is very differentthan what I need to do with
Kevin.
Kevin is not type A.
He's not naturally type A.
He can do type A behaviors, buthe's not naturally an achiever.
He doesn't identify.
I'm an achiever, jess, you do.
You might not say it socially,but you do 100%.
The point that I'm making hereis we all have a record playing.
Kevin's record in hisunconscious is I'm not good
(28:49):
enough, I'm not smart enough,it's not going to work out for
me, I'm not going to besuccessful.
But if you ask him whether ornot he can get along with people
, I mean no problem, absolutely,he's the best ever with people.
Okay, she's smiling right now.
Claude knows the same deal,right?
Jess?
You feel like you have tochange who you are in order to
get along with people, and youmight not talk about this
(29:09):
publicly, so I apologize if I'mhosting you.
Jess (29:11):
No, I do, I definitely do.
Alan Lazaros (29:14):
So what a Jess does is she squats a thousand
pounds behind the scenes when noone's watching and then she
pretends she struggles aroundother people and it's to create
belonging, and when in realityyou don't actually struggle with
self-doubt that much, but thatintimidates people.
So you like to talk about howyou have self-doubt, but what
you don't realize is that youactually love failure and you're
(29:34):
trying to fail forward and youlove getting better and you're
never going to stop.
So these are just differenttypes of people and it's all
based on a core wound.
So the record playing in yourmind is it's all going to work
out.
We got this, we can do it.
See, look, we got this, we cando it.
Jess (29:48):
Yeah, 100% yes.
Alan Lazaros (29:50):
However, when it comes to having successful
friendships and successfulrelationships, there's fear
there.
There's like I don't know.
Is this person going to abandonme?
Are they going to poison peopleagainst me?
Are they going to rip me a newone?
Am I?
I can't let them too closebecause they're going to rip my
heart out.
So vulnerability for Kevin isstepping on stage, feeling
incompetent.
(30:11):
Vulnerability for us is tellingyou that we actually don't
struggle with self-doubt thatmuch.
That is like a no-fly zone.
You cannot say that.
I mean the amount of courageI'm probably red right now the
amount of courage it takes tosay that I don't have a ton of
self-doubt.
Not like me, arrogant hubris,butthead, right.
But other type A's are likehell.
(30:32):
Yeah, like Gary Vee is notgoing to be like what a dick,
because Gary Vee has undyingself-belief as well.
But most people think he's adick and I understand why, and
I'm not for or against Gary Vee,that's not my point.
My point is is that the type Asuper achievers of the world
don't understand that mostpeople don't have self-belief
and they have a different recordplaying.
The record they have playingdetermines how they see the
(30:54):
world.
Jess (30:55):
I don't think I'm type A in total.
I am in type A with thisbusiness and in certain aspects
of my work career, but from apersonal life standpoint I'm
definitely not the type A person.
Alan Lazaros (31:05):
That makes perfect sense.
Jess (31:06):
Does it A is?
Alan Lazaros (31:07):
mostly career.
Yes, right.
Jess (31:09):
So do you feel like that means that you could still
balance a little bit between,like, I don't think I'm super
chameleon, maybe a little atwork, but no?
Claude (31:22):
Not everything.
I feel like, jess, I think likeyou're real with me.
Alan Lazaros (31:27):
Jess, have you ever actually failed at anything
that you did long enough?
I've given up, so I wouldconsider that a failure.
Yeah, so you decided to stopsomething.
Have you ever tried somethingthat you really wanted and
actually not achieved it?
Jess (31:39):
Yes, I can think of a couple of things, but then I do
believe I also just kind of gaveup on them, right.
Alan Lazaros (31:44):
And again, I know this is very deep stuff, usually
type A's.
They decide I don't really wantto do that anymore, it's not
really worth it anymore.
They don't actually think theycouldn't do it.
There's very little Jessbelieves she can't do
unconsciously Right, and this isall in the unconscious.
None of this is conscious.
I don't want to rock you guys'world.
The yin and yang.
It's a beautiful thing.
You guys Claude is naturallymore humble, okay, and Jess,
(32:08):
you're naturally have a higherself-belief, and that's why
Claude is saying that you wouldhave been successful with or
without me.
But she doesn't necessarilythink that same way, and that's
okay.
The beautiful part about theyin and the yang is that you two
are better together because shedoesn't have the weaknesses
that come with your strengths.
Kevin doesn't have theweaknesses that come with my
strengths.
Jess (32:28):
Like the creativity, like you hit on it, claude, is way
more creative than me.
I'm more like.
These are the numbers we haveto hit and how we have to get
them.
Alan Lazaros (32:35):
Here's some ideas and.
Jess (32:35):
I just throw them at her and I'm like which one do you
think will work?
Alan Lazaros (32:38):
If you research all successful businesses, they
have creatives with superachieving metrics and habits,
type A modalities of thinking.
It's really beautiful when youdo the research on this.
Claude (32:49):
Yeah, go ahead, Claude you know, what is funny also is
that because we work together,hence work besties that's how we
started and from that pointthere was that yin and the yang.
Her strength was my weakness.
Could have been likerelationship that can crush each
other with our strengthness,but on the opposite, we were
(33:11):
lifting each other up.
and how many times just you helpme with the whole analytical
things and your strength that Ido believe that in some way I
did help you on other things aswell for sure, absolutely no, so
that's what I think that it cango both ways again crush each
(33:33):
other, or you have this sparklewhere you lift each other and
you help each other and you makeit stronger you become stronger
.
Alan Lazaros (33:41):
I think that every Jess needs someone who can
unconditionally love her, andevery Claude needs someone who
is a Jess, who believes in her.
Oh my God, and that's what youguys are, and that's beautiful
and that's super rare.
Claude (33:56):
That is true, super rare .
I love that.
Alan Lazaros (34:00):
Claude, if you unconditionally love Jess in her
greatness, she's going to leaninto that and that's what your
business needs and Jess.
Anytime Claude is struggling,just tell her how much you
believe in her.
Which she does, and that youguys, if you keep that up, you
guys got it.
Jess (34:18):
We interviewed you so much as you interviewed us today.
Kevin Palmieri (34:22):
This is what happens.
When Alan connects with someonehe's like ah, that person's
like me.
This is what happens.
Jess (34:33):
This has been very educational for us and I do
appreciate it.
I will say if you're half asgood with your clients as you
were with us today my goodness,I get why you guys have been
podcasting for over 2 000episodes and have so many
clients.
This is this is real importantstuff that really helps you get
to the next level.
Alan Lazaros (34:46):
It's very impressive thank you, and thank
you for sitting in thediscomfort of that.
Kevin Palmieri (34:50):
The experience of somebody else doing their
thing.
There's lessons in that and,Claude, I don't know if you
resonate with that or not, butif so, awesome.
I added some value on thisepisode.
Also, just for anybodylistening.
Jess (35:02):
I was the guy I was the guy who talked about the ice
cream truck.
Kevin Palmieri (35:05):
That was me, so don't forget that Next level ice
cream.
Claude (35:09):
Kevin, it's true, totally agree.
Jess (35:13):
I'm the Kevin where I'm okay to step back, because why
do I want to compete on someonethat is so good in speeches One
thing that we didn't hit on thatit definitely is shining
through with you two, and itshines through with us as well
is when you find that, yin toyour yang, you do need to have
(35:33):
the respect and ability to bevulnerable, because that's the
best person to give you honestfeedback and you'll take it
Because, to your point, alan,we're the type of people that
people come at us with feedbackall the time, all the time.
Alan Lazaros (35:47):
I don't care, all the time.
Jess (35:48):
We'll believe anything you're saying.
Alan Lazaros (35:51):
Well, remember, rocks always get thrown at the
tallest tree.
Compliments usually go down androcks go up.
It's very important and again,if you seem very confident,
people are testing itunconsciously.
They need to know if you'reactually confident.
What they don't know is thatwe're just people trying to
serve, and we've been beaten upour whole life.
(36:11):
I think if I could extend thisolive branch.
The paradox that we've figuredout is that my fear is being the
CEO, because I'm afraid ofsuccess.
Rocks get thrown at the CEO.
Okay, jess is resonating.
Here's the paradox.
You guys ever hear that quote?
It is not our darkness but ourlight that most frightens us.
Jess (36:32):
Yes, I've heard it before.
Alan Lazaros (36:33):
It is not our darkness but our light that most
frightens us, Isn't it?
With you, Jess?
It does.
Okay, here's the paradox.
Hev was afraid to be overlooked.
I'm actually afraid to becenter stage.
Seriously, I know it doesn'tseem like it because we've
evolved, but I used to try topush him to the front of the
stage so that the rocks hit himinstead of me, but no one throws
(36:53):
rocks at him.
It's a paradox, right?
Okay?
So fear of failure, fear ofsuccess, whichever one is bigger
.
You have the opposite problemsand you have the opposite
strengths.
And that's all I'm saying isthat Jess is not going to claim
CEO.
She needs to be given it by you, Claude.
Jess (37:11):
And.
Alan Lazaros (37:11):
Claude, you've had to learn how Well that's
beautiful.
That means you're very mature.
So Kevin has had to learn howto be a number two, and I've had
to learn how to be a number one.
My deepest fear is beingdisliked and villainized.
His deepest fear is being notsignificant and not good enough.
So that's all I'm saying isthat it's very paradoxical, but
(37:35):
that's the paradox, and so weall have to face our deepest
fear.
We all have to face our deepestfear, and some of us that's
failure and not being goodenough, and some of us it's
being too much.
For others, yes, you're moreafraid to be too much than you
are of not enough, and that'sjust the truth, and we know that
.
And again, this is a publicmedium, so I didn't mean to turn
this into a coaching call.
I just wanted to extend thisfor anyone out there watching or
listening.
Yes, the paradox is facing yourdeepest fear.
(38:01):
The problem is, I always saythere's two types of people
people who are fearful and liars.
I'm afraid just not afraid ofthe same thing as Kev, and we
learned that from each other.
I never would have known thisif it wasn't for Kev and I
basically having the humility,courage and vulnerability, to
sit in the discomfort of thepost-interview with Stephen
Kotler going.
I don't understand why I was souncomfortable there Okay, why
(38:21):
wasn't I.
And I'm uncomfortable at thebarbecue.
It's like, okay, why wasn't I.
So we had these conversationsand we've learned so much from
each other, and I know you twofeel that same way.
Again, I think life is veryparadoxical and once you
identify and face it ironicallyonce Kevin faces his fear of not
being good enough, guess who'sgoing to be more than good
enough, right?
And once I face my fear ofbeing hated, now I can actually
(38:45):
have the courage to share whatis true for me, which is what
I've had to do with this entireepisode.
Basically.
Jess (38:49):
You've done it beautifully .
Alan Lazaros (38:51):
Thank you, Jess.
Jess (38:53):
All right, I'm going to ask us the last question.
If you remember, at the verybeginning I said that you would
provide for us a key lesson thatyou learned about balancing
your personal growth andmaintaining that supportive
friendship.
What would that be the coachingyou would give to your clients
or anybody listening to ourpodcast?
Kevin Palmieri (39:12):
Times, the balance that you think you want
is not actually the balance thatyou need.
Somebody sitting across fromyou will be able to see that and
say hey brother, I know youwanna like hang out and play
video games all day.
I don't really think that'swhat you deeply, deeply want,
and I do think you might regretthat at some point.
So maybe we could re-approachand revisit what balance
(39:33):
actually means from a morealigned place.
Sometimes we want to villainizethe people who give us some of
the best advice, so just sitwith it.
The balance is different foreverybody, and sometimes people
can see parts of you that youcan't see yet.
Alan Lazaros (39:52):
That would be my advice, what he's referring to
there.
If I really want to see Kevinsucceed, I want him to win.
I'm talking deep in my soul andmy heart and my mind.
I have to tell him the thingsthat I don't even want to tell
him.
I didn't want to tell him that.
That's how I know it's not forme.
I genuinely would be better offnot telling you.
Well, in the short run, In theshort run and since you're my
business partner, there's got tobe a level of accountability
(40:12):
there.
What he's referring to there isjust being vulnerable.
It's so vulnerable for me toshare my truth with Kevin
because I don't want him to feelbad about himself, but I do
want to see him win.
There's no way this could haveworked without courage, humility
and vulnerability, especially,especially vulnerability and
courage, because we've had manytears, Like seriously, we've had
(40:34):
really hard conversations, lifelife altering conversations.
I mean, we're not in this as ahobby.
This is our full-time job, thisis our career and our calling
and we we take it very, very,Take it very very seriously.
Claude (40:44):
I love to see this relationship.
Jess (40:46):
Alan and Kevin, can you guys remind our audience again
where they can find you?
Kevin Palmieri (40:50):
If you search Next Level University, you'll
find us on all the audioplatforms.
You'll find us on YouTube.
Our website isnextleveluniversecom.
And then Alan's Instagram is atA-L-A-Z-A-R-O-S and mine is at
Never Quit.
Jess (41:06):
Kid.
Kevin Palmieri (41:07):
Mine is better than Alan's, for sure.
Jess (41:11):
Alan and Kevin.
Thank you so much.
Thank you Empowered for mepersonally, Claude and I have a
lot to talk about from this andfeeling very much like you've
supported us and given us sometools and resources just within
this short conversation.
Claude (41:25):
And, I'm sure, to all the work besties, because at
some point all of them listening, they always know which one is
the Kevin slash Claude and whichone is the Jess slash Alan,
right, so why don't you drop,you know, a little message on
Instagram and let us know, oreven on YouTube, let us know
(41:46):
which one is which in your, inyour pair?
If you enjoyed this episode asmuch as we did, please don't
forget to like, subscribe andsee you next week.
Jess (42:01):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings or just sending
that perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (42:14):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
Hello WorkBesties.
Today we have Alan and Kevin,and their story is a testament
to the strength of theirfriendship, as well as a shared
purpose.
But what key lesson did theylearn about balancing personal
growth as well as maintainingthat supportive friendship?
You're going to have to stay tothe end to find that out.
Claude (00:18):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:26):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties Welcome to WorkBesties, kevin and Alan.
It's so nice to meet you.
Kevin Palmieri (00:42):
Thank you so very much for having us.
We're excited to chat with dualpodcast hosts like we are and
dual work besties.
Yes, 100%.
Alan Lazaros (00:50):
You two know the deal of being work besties.
A lot of people told us in thebeginning don't do it, it won't
work out, and we're verygrateful we stuck with it
because this is awesome.
Thank you so much for having us.
Kevin Palmieri (01:06):
Why don't you two talk about how you two
started?
I was somewhat successful in mycorporate America career, but
success externally led to a lotof stuff that I was dealing with
internally, so I went throughsome mental health problems.
I had some suicidal ideations,ended up starting a podcast.
I didn't know anything aboutpodcasting before Alan
introduced me to interview styleYouTube channels because he had
me on his YouTube channel Fellin love with that whole thing.
(01:30):
I always wanted to help people.
I just never knew how I wantedto do.
It Started my podcast.
Alan was the first guest that Ihad Ended up dealing with some
suicidal ideations and mentalhealth problems at my job.
I left my job in 2018.
And then Alan and I partneredup together because he was my
mentor at the time.
He was the person who knew waymore about self-improvement, way
(01:54):
more about business.
Obviously, I'm taller andbetter looking than he is, so
that has really worked out in myfavor over the years.
You and Andy Yang yeah, youhave to have that, claude, it's
very important, right?
But we had a very similarthought process of what got us
in trouble in life was lack ofclarity, it was lack of
(02:17):
self-improvement and it was lackof personal development.
So if we could bring that tothe world through a podcast,
that would be the thing that wecould do.
And now, as of today, werecorded our 2000th episode
right before this.
So we've been doing this since2018, full time since 2017.
Jess (02:34):
We have a podcast all about self-improvement.
Thank you, I appreciate it verymuch.
Huge kudos for those that arenot in podcasting, which the
number that don't even make itto 50, is pretty astronomical,
the fact that you're at 2000.
Kevin Palmieri (02:46):
Wow, Well, I think it speaks to how lucky we
are to have each other.
I like to think that I wouldhave gotten here without Alan.
There's no way I would have.
I probably wouldn't have gottenpast 15 or 20.
Alan, I think, would have beenway more successful alone than I
would have been successfulalone, but we've definitely
helped each other.
Stay consistent, for sure.
Claude (03:06):
That reminds me of Jess and I Like Jess, I'm sure would
be more successful by herselfthan me, by myself.
Kevin Palmieri (03:15):
So you're me, Claude.
Jess (03:16):
That's nice.
I'm Kevin.
It's the yin and the yang weneed each other to help.
Exactly 2,000 episodes.
What was the podcasting worldlike eight years ago?
Kevin Palmieri (03:34):
There were far less podcasts.
The whole video thing wasn'treally a thing.
Nobody was doing virtualinterviews.
So, yeah, I think there was alot of people just kicking the
tires on what this newish thingcould be.
The thing that was beneficialfor us is not a lot of people
were taking it that seriously.
We started, we went all in, wewere traveling to interview
people, we were spending lots ofmoney that we didn't have.
We were doing all this stuff,and I think the other important
(03:56):
piece is 2017, 2018, it was, Iwon't say, a lot easier to get
big guests, but there weren't asmany people reaching out to
them.
Now people are just gettingbombarded with messages, so I
think the playing field was alittle bit more level back then.
Alan Lazaros (04:17):
Did I miss anything, alan?
I think social media wasdifferent back then.
For sure, instagram was stillreally really useful and it's
not not useful Now.
We still use it.
We use Instagram, facebook,whatsapp.
We use LinkedIn as well, butInstagram was, I mean you could
could DM an author and get.
They'd get back to you that day.
Now again, I think part of thatwas cause I had a following and
(04:38):
I was in fitness and I was afitness model.
I mean, we were getting DMSfrom listeners regularly,
constantly, and we didn'trealize at the time that that
wasn't normal right.
So we went from the first yearwe only did 1,054 listens to the
second year we did like 25,000.
Our growth rate was nuts backthen.
Now we're much more successful175 countries, 2,000 episodes.
(04:59):
But it's definitely a differentgame now, for sure.
Claude (05:06):
So it was easier to really establish yourself back
then and then grow at the sametime as the podcast world was
growing.
Kevin Palmieri (05:09):
Back then people weren't starting podcasts to
make them into businesses.
Some people were, becausethere's always going to be
people ahead of the curve onthat.
But most people were like, letme see what happens with this.
So I think the failure rateback then it's high today, but
it was different back then.
It was just if you could beconsistent and you were
committed, you were alreadygoing to get ahead of most
(05:29):
people.
There's two of us, so if you'regoing to work for 16 hours,
we're going to work for 16 hourstimes two.
So it's going to be really hardto keep up with that.
Claude (05:38):
So, for our listeners, what is the name of your podcast
?
Kevin Palmieri (05:42):
It is called Next.
Alan Lazaros (05:43):
Level University, next Level U.
Next Level University, nextLevel U.
Pun intended, so I'm Alan,version 3.6.
I'm 36, even though I look 15.
Kevin is 35.
Kevin version 3.5.
That joke.
I used to say I'm hoping to hitpuberty at 37, but now I got a
little mustache going.
Claude (06:00):
Can't say that anymore.
Alan Lazaros (06:01):
Yeah yeah, thank you.
First mustache at 36.
Seriously, it was a big dealfor me, but anyways.
So Next Level University, it's1% improvement in your pocket,
heart-driven, but no BS.
Holistic self-improvement fordream chasers it's anyone who
has an aspiration or a dream,who wants to get to the next
level of their life love, healthand wealth.
So self-improvement in yourpocket, from anywhere on the
(06:21):
planet, completely free.
It's on the deepest level.
It's Kevin and I are the malerole models we never had growing
up.
I think that's the deeperpurpose underneath it, because
we both grew up without fathers.
But I think that it's that 1%improvement per day thing of
just you need to be inspired,motivated and educated a little
bit each day.
You're not going to change yourwhole world overnight, but you
(06:42):
can get a little better each dayand if you do the math on that
I'm a big engineering math guyit changes everything.
I mean our life is night andday, compared to when we both
had what we call our quarterlife crises.
Kevin mentioned suicidalideation.
I had my car accident and so weboth grew up in the same town.
Both grew up without fathers.
My father passed away when Iwas two.
His father he met when he was27 for the first time, when we
(07:03):
were both in our mid-20s.
He had suicidal ideation, so hefaced mortality and I got in
that car accident.
My dad died in a car.
That just flipped the scriptfor me.
After that we reconnected.
We were friends in middleschool.
He didn't like me in highschool and I didn't like that,
he didn't like me, so we didn'tget along.
And then we reconnected in ourmid-20s and we started spending
Father's Days together EveryFather's Day.
(07:23):
We have been doing that eversince, so we've spent every
Father's Day together for eightyears.
We used to fish.
Now we have a charity forsingle parents, children of
single parents, called the NextLevel Hope Foundation.
But essentially we just 1%improvement every single day.
That's our motto and we aretrying to lead by example and
help people grow a little biteach day, not just in success
(07:46):
and wealth, but in health andfitness and in their intimate
relationship as well.
Because we were both broke as ajoke and single as hell back
then and really wildlyunfulfilled.
Kevin Palmieri (07:56):
So we were in really good shape, though at the
time we were in really goodshape, so notice how I left that
one out.
Alan Lazaros (08:00):
Drop that in, by the way, that's the only thing
that hasn't gotten better, to behonest, and we do an episode
every day.
Kevin Palmieri (08:08):
I know you asked about the frequency of an
episode.
Every day.
Every day Christmas, birthdays,holidays, sunday, it doesn't
matter.
There's an episode droppingevery day.
Jess (08:17):
And do you guys pre-record , or are they on every day?
Kevin Palmieri (08:26):
Monday was the day we record.
We try on mondays, what it'scalled marathon mondays.
We would try to record sevenepisodes.
I'd come out of the office andgo see my wife and she said how
many did you get done?
Just one, yeah.
We had a lot of a lot ofbusiness talks today, so we used
to batch them.
We would try to do it all inone sitting.
Now today's friday, so werecorded tomorrows and Sundays
right before this.
Claude (08:42):
Content is always so hard right, Especially at one a
day.
So how do you keep up withstaying fresh and relatable,
always going with your theme ofthat 1%?
Alan Lazaros (08:59):
The benefits of being holistic self-improvement
is that we health, wealth andlove.
While that seems narrow, we getto talk about kind of whatever
we want.
There's a lot that can fit intoeach of those right.
So we can talk fitness, we cantalk consistency, community.
We can talk about a lot ofthings.
So that's number one.
We're narrow enough to bemeaningful, but wide enough to
where we can actually do anepisode every day.
(09:20):
What does our listener need?
What do we want to talk about?
Because if we don't havepassion, it's not going to flow
and what's going to actually beclicked on?
So those are sort of the three,based on our understanding of
our listener now, and that'sevolved a lot over the years,
obviously.
So Kevin and I are growing andAlan, version 3.6, and Kevin,
version 3.5, are not passionateabout the same things we are.
(09:42):
Self-improvement is the throughline, so that's never changed.
But we're both much more inbusiness right now.
So we have to, we have to try totake okay, what are you reading
?
All right, what am I reading?
All right, I'm reading thisbook.
Okay, what's the concept?
Boom, boom, boom.
So we try to keep it fresh andthat's actually why we don't
batch, because we've tried we'veliterally tried to batch 14
episodes.
So he went to Scotland lastyear.
We had to batch I think 21episodes is the most we've ever
(10:04):
batched and it was hard becauseit wasn't as fresh.
We also and I got to be verytransparent about this kind of
have no life I'm joking.
We work really hard and we worksix days a week front facing,
and then we still work onSundays too.
So our model doesn't work foreverybody and we're definitely
workhorses that came fromnothing.
So that's a part of it too thatwe got to be just transparent.
Jess (10:25):
You commented about.
You've got a lot of clients.
Do you try and take what'sgoing on in your life with these
clients and make that a part ofthe main focus?
Alan Lazaros (10:33):
Constantly.
Jess (10:35):
Okay, so that kind of keeps it fresh too, I would
assume.
Kevin Palmieri (10:40):
We're very different.
We are polar opposites, butvery similar.
It's very strange how thiswhole thing has worked out.
I'll have a story and then I'llthink like what could I do a
podcast episode on that?
How could I make that an episode?
So I was going shopping onetime.
It was around the holidayseason.
I went to Target in DecemberWorst idea ever of all time,
(11:02):
don't do that.
But there was a guy helping meand he's like yeah, let me run
to the back and grab your stuff.
And he was very clearlyoverwhelmed, he was very clearly
overworked, he was stressed out.
There probably had been somepeople that weren't super nice
to him.
And he came over and when hewent to give me my bags, we like
held hands for a second becauseI was trying to grab the bags
and he's like oh, I'm so sorry'mso sorry, man.
(11:23):
I was like, hey, you're good.
Like thank you so much for yourhelp, I appreciate it so much.
And we formulated an episode oflike humility out of that.
Is there any reason for me tofurther make that person's life
slash day hard?
No, it's not that big of a deal.
What are we doing here?
So I usually come with a storyand then we'll make an episode.
(11:43):
Alan usually comes with alesson and then we'll make an
episode from that.
So I'm story first, alan islesson first.
So as long as I'm experiencinglife.
We'll have a story.
Alan's always learning, sowe'll always have something.
Yeah, it has to be somethingthat we actually want to talk
about.
We used to be the podcast who Iwould do research and SEO, like
(12:03):
what titles work, and we don'tdo that as much now.
I think it's very important inthe beginning, but now it's like
I'm going to title it thisbecause that's what we talked
about, and is it the best, mostsearch engine friendly one?
Probably not, but I want tomake sure that we're doing it in
the way that we want to do itnow, more than playing the game,
(12:23):
and that's been a big shift forus.
Jess (12:27):
That's an area where you can get to and you've built
quite the community.
Kevin Palmieri (12:30):
Yeah, don't do that in the beginning.
Jess (12:34):
All you podcasters, please note build your community first
.
Kevin Palmieri (12:37):
Yeah, you've got to learn that stuff and see
what works and see what doesn't,and we're privileged, through
work, in things that we can testnow versus in the beginning.
Alan Lazaros (12:51):
Go ahead.
Alan.
I'm starting BGU, so NLU isNext Level University Podcast.
Growth University is hispodcast because he's the podcast
guy.
And then I have Business GrowthUniversity starting this year
because I'm the business guy,and so we call them listeners,
longers and business owners.
So listeners want to learn fromus, longers want to build their
own podcasts in their owncommunities, and then business
owners are people who, like us,are screwed if they don't
generate revenue, and so I coachthe business owners.
Some business owners want tostart a podcast for marketing
(13:12):
and branding.
Some podcasters need to build abusiness, otherwise they go out
of business.
At this stage, I think Kevin'smastered the title so much and
so well that he can real quickdo things.
Jess (13:24):
Do what the rest of us do and just search the SEO terms.
Alan Lazaros (13:26):
Yeah, which, in the beginning, like I think his
brain is really good at goingokay, this is going to land with
our audience, this is what willland with SEO and this is what
we know.
Okay, boom.
And half the time I don't evenagree with the title, but I also
know that I'm an engineer andno one cares about what I care
about.
We figured out he's good withpeople and I'm good with systems
and structure and metrics, andevery business needs both.
(13:46):
By the way, if I can give alittle side tangent, every
business needs to be really,really, really good at these two
things systems, metrics,structures, discipline, boom
boom, organization.
That's me, definitely.
And then the other one iscreative and with people.
So kevin's really good withpeople.
Everyone likes him, nobodylikes me.
He's good with people and he'sreally good and very, very
(14:08):
creative.
I'm the metrics and system.
I mean he tracks 18 metrics and19 habits I think 18 as of
today.
But that's not because of him,it's because-.
Kevin Palmieri (14:17):
Yeah, and I don't want to do that.
I don't want to, but I have to.
Alan Lazaros (14:20):
Right.
So the train tracks are set upfor success and then the
creativity.
He flows within those traintracks.
Jess (14:26):
A topic that we in the WorkFesty platform talk about a
lot.
You both are a yin and a yangright.
You compliment each other, andit feels like the same thing is
really necessary in a businesspartnership too.
So, because you guys arefriends, what are some
challenges, or maybe even hacksyou find are helpful because of
(14:49):
your friendship with businesses?
Alan Lazaros (14:53):
I'm going to make this sound wrong, I'm going to
just own it.
So I'm a type A.
I got all my awards in thebackground.
I'm a type A.
I always have been.
I've been hiding it and toocowardly to say it, but I always
have been.
So make sure your yin isyanging.
So I'm not as creative.
I'm an engineer Everything'snumbers, everything's metrics,
everything's structure.
That's who I am and I thinkbusiness needs that.
(15:15):
But it also needs creative anda people person.
Kevin and I are polar oppositesin our thinking.
He's short-term, I'm long-term,actively paranoid and humble.
I'm long-term, optimist andwe've switched in certain
situations, especially when itcomes to people.
But ultimately we have a yinand a yang and that's great.
But one of the things that issimilar is our core values.
(15:35):
We both came from very little.
We both were broke as a jokewhen we were younger and I told
him this.
I said, kev, I never could workwith you if you had any level
of entitlement.
We are earners to our core andif you don't have humility and
work ethic and you want bigrewards for minimal effort, you
just will never like us.
Because we aren't that way.
We have a culture in our companyand in our blood, for lack of
(15:59):
better phrasing just ourupbringing of earn every dollar.
There is no quick fix, there isno shortcut, there is no know
your value and charge 10 grandeven though you've never done
this before type of stuff insideof us.
Like we both started coachingfor free and then it was 50
bucks a week and then it was 75and then it was up from there
and so we built this, coming upon a half million dollar
business, which is awesome, butlike we started from nothing,
(16:22):
literally and figuratively.
And I think the core value thatwe have in common is impact
first, money second Okay, youcan't have money last because
you'll go out of business.
But impact is first Heartdriven, but no BS, self
improvement.
And I would say we're similarin our core but we're very
different in our thinking.
Kevin Palmieri (16:43):
I have an answer , and it's an answer in the
direction you wanted it, jess,because that sounded supremely
positive, which it is for themost part.
I'll come to Alan and I'll belike brother, are you sitting
down?
I have the best idea maybeyou've ever heard in your entire
life and it's maybe the dumbestidea that has ever been spoken
audibly, ever, ever.
(17:08):
Sometimes my creativity getsthe best of me and I will do
things that are not necessarilybest for momentum, but it's like
this seems like a really goodopportunity.
Why aren't we doing this?
We could have an ice creamtruck.
Why don't we do that?
Everybody needs ice cream.
And Alan's like Kev holisticself-improvement for dream
chases.
Okay, cool.
So I'm a pain in the butt thatway for sure.
Alan is essentially my boss.
I know it might not seem likethat, but he is and he's the CEO
(17:33):
and he's the leader for areason.
Sometimes that sucks when itgoes from like we're supposed to
record from 6 to 7 pm and thenit goes from 7 to 8 pm.
It's like that kind of sucksand very quickly I get over it
because I'm way more gratefulfor the benefits than that
slight pain in the buttinconvenience.
(17:53):
So I think, without the upsidethe downside would kind of stink
.
But without the downside youwouldn't get the upside.
Jess (18:03):
Right.
Kevin Palmieri (18:04):
As long as the benefits outweigh whatever else.
You're dealing with and youhave gratitude.
I have gratitude for the factthat Alan is such a great leader
.
I would have crashed into theiceberg, backed up and crashed
into the iceberg again.
We would be in trouble if I wasrunning this.
But you should have ice foryour ice cream.
I would Thank you See A lot ofpeople.
I really like that positivemindset Smell ice can you?
(18:27):
That's what I need.
Alan Lazaros (18:29):
A little.
Kevin Palmieri (18:29):
Titanic reference.
Over the last eight years, Ithink we've just we just have
gotten to learn each other andwe know each other at a really
deep level.
And you know, I know Alandoesn't like when I talk about
him as the leader, the greatleader that he is.
He gets nervous.
That's my job to tell peopleabout that, because he won't say
it himself.
So, yeah, we have a wonderfulthing, but wonderful things do
(18:50):
come with inconveniences attimes.
At what point in life are younot going to have some
inconveniences?
At least they're the higherquality ones, as of today,
Claude, I saw you grinning earto ear.
Jess (18:59):
I want to hear your perspective Again.
Kevin Palmieri (19:01):
I'm going to say I'm kidding, I figured, Claude,
I figured.
When you started smiling I waslike that's.
Claude (19:07):
Except that Jess also has the relationship with the
people as well.
Right, depends.
Yeah, I'm the Kevin.
Jess is really the organizer,the number person.
Jess (19:20):
She calls me, miss Bossy, that's what.
Claude (19:22):
I get.
Jess (19:25):
I'm called.
Claude (19:26):
CEO.
So you're lucky.
No, I'm saying CEO.
No, no, I would say CEO.
It's actually funny, becauselast time we were having drinks
and something came up, I'm like,yeah, you're bossy.
Since then she takes it.
She's like there's bossy here,but thank God for Jess, because
if it was just me, we'd benowhere.
I would still be on my couchsending each other memes.
Alan Lazaros (19:49):
It's going to be very uncomfortable for you to
allow her to say that right.
For the longest time, I wantedto save Kevin from admitting
some of those things, but that'strue humility, that's
vulnerability and that's courage.
The truth is, kevin was goingto be successful, but he wasn't
going to be this successful, andyou're not really allowed to
(20:10):
say that socially, which is whyeveryone doesn't like me.
Jess (20:12):
Or it wouldn't be as fun.
Alan Lazaros (20:14):
Well, it definitely wouldn't be as fun,
he's hilarious, I wouldn't be assuccessful.
Kevin Palmieri (20:18):
I mean I guarantee this ice cream truck
thing could take off right.
It could Next level ice cream,it's true.
Alan Lazaros (20:26):
So one thing that I really want to make as clear
as I can, because I think thisis a golden nugget that I would
have wanted and I'm going togive it to you just I had kevin
rate me from zero to ten on alist of intimidation signs of an
intimidating character I'm tooscared to do that.
There's 30 character traits Ican send them to, and he gave me
the lowest score I got on.
(20:48):
Any of the 30 is an eight, andso it was.
9.5 was the average.
I added them all up in anaverage.
One of the things that I'llshare with everybody is that
everyone I've ever coached Icoached 25 people currently and
it's been hundreds over theyears and I've been coaching for
mentoring for 10 years,coaching for thousands and
thousands of hours.
I have them all tracked.
Mentoring for 10 years,coaching for eight, thousands
(21:08):
and thousands of hours.
I have them all tracked and I'mnot saying that to brag.
I'm saying that so that youknow I'm not just talking.
The thing that I've found isthat everyone is better at one
thing or the other.
So you are either really goodat success and you have a lot of
self-belief, and you're reallygood at systems and structure
and success and organizationtype A, what's known as
conscientiousness in the Hexacopersonality test, which Jess
(21:30):
probably is or you're reallygood at relationships.
Now, a lot of people who aretype A.
We learn how to chameleon andhow to dim ourselves to try to
get along with people, but weintimidate the hell out of
people when we are our trueselves.
So we basically usually shrinkand we pretend not to believe in
ourselves.
We make fun of ourselves allthe time and it makes us
(21:51):
socially accepted and it makesus feel like we belong.
But then behind the scenes,we're just like let's go, baby,
let's do it Right.
See, it's resonating.
Jess (21:58):
This is literally me every day.
Alan Lazaros (22:00):
This is a story that I think will make this land
better than I can ever havearticulated in the past.
Kevin and I interviewed someonenamed Stephen Kotler, so he
wrote a book called the Art ofImpossible and this was back in
2019.
And Kevin and I interviewed himfor, I think, episode six.
And around that time, everyFather's Day we would spend
together and we'd go fishing andthere was this Father's Day
sort of family barbecue that wewere at where I used to live and
(22:23):
Kev said dude, I feel like Ibelong at the barbecue.
I don't feel like I belong withSteven Kotler.
Steven Kotler, peak performance,the art of impossible.
I mean heat flow.
I mean it's the researchcollective of just type A's,
basically super achievers, howto do the impossible it's never
been done.
The Michael Phelps of the world.
And I said, kev, I don't feellike I belong here at all.
(22:44):
I mean, stephen Kotler and Iwere like kids in a candy store
talking peak performance, andfor us that was a really big
moment because that was whenKevin and I realized we were
trying to be like each other andwe were never going to win at
that game.
I wanted to be like, I wasjealous of how likable this dude
is.
Everyone loves Kev.
We'd give the same speech I'mtelling you mine was better and
(23:06):
everyone would love him and hateme.
Jess (23:09):
It totally feels like my life.
Alan Lazaros (23:10):
Right and it's like what I added more value.
This was more valuable.
Speech Doesn't matter, right?
He's a likable guy.
He's relatable and likable.
I'm not relatable or likable,so I have to just lean into that
and be okay with it, becauseI'm a statistical anomaly.
I'm an engineering thinker andI'm very, very rare.
(23:34):
The point is, kev was afraid tonot be respected and not be
admired for being an achiever,and I was afraid to be hated my
entire life.
So we both had to face ourdeepest fear.
His deepest fear was not beinggood enough.
My deepest fear was basicallybeing ostracized socially
because I don't relate wellpeople.
When I try to relate, they cantell it's not authentic I can
fit in with people and make themfeel comfortable.
Jess (23:52):
I don't feel authentic they don't notice it, but it's
amazing because you're justjealous.
Claude (23:57):
You're still, you're likable I mean.
Alan Lazaros (24:01):
But how do you know that that likability isn't
manufactured by her dimming?
A lot of the things that I'vesaid here are not likable things
to say and that takestremendous social courage.
So Kevin's needed competencecourage.
He needed to do the speech,write the resume, do the cover
letter, try the thing I neededto have social courage.
Social courage to.
(24:21):
For me, vulnerability isactually owning who I am and
owning the contrast of who I am.
It's very scary and I knowthat's resonating.
Jess, you know what?
I'm not that great and you knowwhat.
And he is great.
That's the truth.
But he needs to own that.
He's not type A.
Claude (24:38):
Is it really not like you're afraid of not being great
?
It's you not believing thatyou're great?
Because it's really different,because you can be great but not
believing it?
Kevin Palmieri (24:53):
I think for me it's both.
So when I was young, my dadleft and I think there was a
part of me that internalizedthat as well.
If I was better, smarter,whatever he would have stayed
around Again.
I'm a baby, so that's kind ofout of my control, but I didn't
know that at the time.
So that became the record thatplayed in my head is I'm not
(25:13):
good enough, I'm not smartenough, I'm never going to be
successful.
Nobody in my family had acollege education.
We were broke.
There wasn't a lot of hope.
It just didn't seem like therewas a lot of hope.
In high school I was really goodat baseball Claude All-star
captain of the team but Ithought I just got luckier more
often than other people.
So I had this record of I'm notgood enough, I'm not smart
(25:37):
enough.
I get lucky, I guess when itcomes to things.
No, my biggest fear is failure.
My biggest fear is going andgiving a speech and making a
mistake or bombing.
That's like my deep fear.
Now I think I'm getting to theplace where I feel fairly yeah,
I feel very competent in thisLike this is well within my
(25:57):
comfort zone, but I still haveanxiety around things that I'm
doing for the first time.
I would guarantee that I didmore research of you guys than
Alan did, because I like thecertainty.
I need to know who I'm talkingto.
I need to know what you do inthe world.
I need to look at your socialmedias.
That's as much about trying tobe a consummate professional as
it is.
It gives me certainty andconfidence in what I'm doing.
(26:20):
So my deepest fear is rejectionnot being good enough, not
being smart enough.
I still deal with that to thisday.
Claude (26:27):
Judging subject what do you think of our Instagram?
Kevin Palmieri (26:34):
Literally.
Jess (26:35):
Claude leads the Instagram , in case you're wondering.
Kevin Palmieri (26:38):
Claude, the first thing I thought is they're
really good at marketing.
That was the first thing Ithought, like you guys are
really good at marketing, yourpage does a really good job of
promoting the podcast byindirectly promoting the podcast
.
So yeah, I was pleasantlysurprised.
As of today, I've been on 985other podcasts.
(26:59):
You're in the top 5% of socialmedias I've seen.
Claude (27:05):
Oh, we got a ton of time Strong word night Jess, it's
together problem, Strong wordnice, jess, it's together, it's
not just me right.
Strong word, both of you.
Jess (27:13):
Yeah, we do it.
Alan Lazaros (27:14):
One thing if I can extend an olive branch is Kevin
is better at social media thanI am, because Kevin understands
people and the way they thinkmore than I do.
So, jess, the fears that hetalked about, fear of failure
like, we don't have as much of afear of failure, we just think,
okay, we'll just fail forward,fail forward, fail forward.
Jess (27:32):
Keep going and check the numbers Exactly.
Okay, this will work.
Alan Lazaros (27:35):
We have a fear of success and give me a minute,
okay.
Whenever we shined, ourrelationships would suffer, so
we've been conditioned to notshine unless someone else is
with us.
So this is landing, okay.
Jess (27:50):
Walk me through that, because that's fascinating to me
, because one of the values ofus creating this work bestie
community is to rely on eachother, to raise each other up,
which you want to successfullyachieve growth, both of you Now
not everyone owns a businesstogether, so sometimes it's not
going to be as succinct as that,but you would hope of those
(28:10):
that do work together or decideto work together, that would be
their greatest success in life,and they'd be so Well I think to
the yin and yang conversation,to you two's strength, what I've
come to understand over yearsand years of trying to coach and
help different types ofindividuals.
Alan Lazaros (28:26):
Some are type A, like you, jess, and what I need
to do with you is very differentthan what I need to do with
Kevin.
Kevin is not type A.
He's not naturally type A.
He can do type A behaviors, buthe's not naturally an achiever.
He doesn't identify.
I'm an achiever, jess, you do.
You might not say it socially,but you do 100%.
The point that I'm making hereis we all have a record playing.
Kevin's record in hisunconscious is I'm not good
(28:49):
enough, I'm not smart enough,it's not going to work out for
me, I'm not going to besuccessful.
But if you ask him whether ornot he can get along with people
, I mean no problem, absolutely,he's the best ever with people.
Okay, she's smiling right now.
Claude knows the same deal,right?
Jess?
You feel like you have tochange who you are in order to
get along with people, and youmight not talk about this
(29:09):
publicly, so I apologize if I'mhosting you.
Jess (29:11):
No, I do, I definitely do.
Alan Lazaros (29:14):
So what a Jess does is she squats a thousand
pounds behind the scenes when noone's watching and then she
pretends she struggles aroundother people and it's to create
belonging, and when in realityyou don't actually struggle with
self-doubt that much, but thatintimidates people.
So you like to talk about howyou have self-doubt, but what
you don't realize is that youactually love failure and you're
(29:34):
trying to fail forward and youlove getting better and you're
never going to stop.
So these are just differenttypes of people and it's all
based on a core wound.
So the record playing in yourmind is it's all going to work
out.
We got this, we can do it.
See, look, we got this, we cando it.
Jess (29:48):
Yeah, 100% yes.
Alan Lazaros (29:50):
However, when it comes to having successful
friendships and successfulrelationships, there's fear
there.
There's like I don't know.
Is this person going to abandonme?
Are they going to poison peopleagainst me?
Are they going to rip me a newone?
Am I?
I can't let them too closebecause they're going to rip my
heart out.
So vulnerability for Kevin isstepping on stage, feeling
incompetent.
(30:11):
Vulnerability for us is tellingyou that we actually don't
struggle with self-doubt thatmuch.
That is like a no-fly zone.
You cannot say that.
I mean the amount of courageI'm probably red right now the
amount of courage it takes tosay that I don't have a ton of
self-doubt.
Not like me, arrogant hubris,butthead, right.
But other type A's are likehell.
(30:32):
Yeah, like Gary Vee is notgoing to be like what a dick,
because Gary Vee has undyingself-belief as well.
But most people think he's adick and I understand why, and
I'm not for or against Gary Vee,that's not my point.
My point is is that the type Asuper achievers of the world
don't understand that mostpeople don't have self-belief
and they have a different recordplaying.
The record they have playingdetermines how they see the
(30:54):
world.
Jess (30:55):
I don't think I'm type A in total.
I am in type A with thisbusiness and in certain aspects
of my work career, but from apersonal life standpoint I'm
definitely not the type A person.
Alan Lazaros (31:05):
That makes perfect sense.
Jess (31:06):
Does it A is?
Alan Lazaros (31:07):
mostly career.
Yes, right.
Jess (31:09):
So do you feel like that means that you could still
balance a little bit between,like, I don't think I'm super
chameleon, maybe a little atwork, but no?
Claude (31:22):
Not everything.
I feel like, jess, I think likeyou're real with me.
Alan Lazaros (31:27):
Jess, have you ever actually failed at anything
that you did long enough?
I've given up, so I wouldconsider that a failure.
Yeah, so you decided to stopsomething.
Have you ever tried somethingthat you really wanted and
actually not achieved it?
Jess (31:39):
Yes, I can think of a couple of things, but then I do
believe I also just kind of gaveup on them, right.
Alan Lazaros (31:44):
And again, I know this is very deep stuff, usually
type A's.
They decide I don't really wantto do that anymore, it's not
really worth it anymore.
They don't actually think theycouldn't do it.
There's very little Jessbelieves she can't do
unconsciously Right, and this isall in the unconscious.
None of this is conscious.
I don't want to rock you guys'world.
The yin and yang.
It's a beautiful thing.
You guys Claude is naturallymore humble, okay, and Jess,
(32:08):
you're naturally have a higherself-belief, and that's why
Claude is saying that you wouldhave been successful with or
without me.
But she doesn't necessarilythink that same way, and that's
okay.
The beautiful part about theyin and the yang is that you two
are better together because shedoesn't have the weaknesses
that come with your strengths.
Kevin doesn't have theweaknesses that come with my
strengths.
Jess (32:28):
Like the creativity, like you hit on it, claude, is way
more creative than me.
I'm more like.
These are the numbers we haveto hit and how we have to get
them.
Alan Lazaros (32:35):
Here's some ideas and.
Jess (32:35):
I just throw them at her and I'm like which one do you
think will work?
Alan Lazaros (32:38):
If you research all successful businesses, they
have creatives with superachieving metrics and habits,
type A modalities of thinking.
It's really beautiful when youdo the research on this.
Claude (32:49):
Yeah, go ahead, Claude you know, what is funny also is
that because we work together,hence work besties that's how we
started and from that pointthere was that yin and the yang.
Her strength was my weakness.
Could have been likerelationship that can crush each
other with our strengthness,but on the opposite, we were
(33:11):
lifting each other up.
and how many times just you helpme with the whole analytical
things and your strength that Ido believe that in some way I
did help you on other things aswell for sure, absolutely no, so
that's what I think that it cango both ways again crush each
(33:33):
other, or you have this sparklewhere you lift each other and
you help each other and you makeit stronger you become stronger
.
Alan Lazaros (33:41):
I think that every Jess needs someone who can
unconditionally love her, andevery Claude needs someone who
is a Jess, who believes in her.
Oh my God, and that's what youguys are, and that's beautiful
and that's super rare.
Claude (33:56):
That is true, super rare .
I love that.
Alan Lazaros (34:00):
Claude, if you unconditionally love Jess in her
greatness, she's going to leaninto that and that's what your
business needs and Jess.
Anytime Claude is struggling,just tell her how much you
believe in her.
Which she does, and that youguys, if you keep that up, you
guys got it.
Jess (34:18):
We interviewed you so much as you interviewed us today.
Kevin Palmieri (34:22):
This is what happens.
When Alan connects with someonehe's like ah, that person's
like me.
This is what happens.
Jess (34:33):
This has been very educational for us and I do
appreciate it.
I will say if you're half asgood with your clients as you
were with us today my goodness,I get why you guys have been
podcasting for over 2 000episodes and have so many
clients.
This is this is real importantstuff that really helps you get
to the next level.
Alan Lazaros (34:46):
It's very impressive thank you, and thank
you for sitting in thediscomfort of that.
Kevin Palmieri (34:50):
The experience of somebody else doing their
thing.
There's lessons in that and,Claude, I don't know if you
resonate with that or not, butif so, awesome.
I added some value on thisepisode.
Also, just for anybodylistening.
Jess (35:02):
I was the guy I was the guy who talked about the ice
cream truck.
Kevin Palmieri (35:05):
That was me, so don't forget that Next level ice
cream.
Claude (35:09):
Kevin, it's true, totally agree.
Jess (35:13):
I'm the Kevin where I'm okay to step back, because why
do I want to compete on someonethat is so good in speeches One
thing that we didn't hit on thatit definitely is shining
through with you two, and itshines through with us as well
is when you find that, yin toyour yang, you do need to have
(35:33):
the respect and ability to bevulnerable, because that's the
best person to give you honestfeedback and you'll take it
Because, to your point, alan,we're the type of people that
people come at us with feedbackall the time, all the time.
Alan Lazaros (35:47):
I don't care, all the time.
Jess (35:48):
We'll believe anything you're saying.
Alan Lazaros (35:51):
Well, remember, rocks always get thrown at the
tallest tree.
Compliments usually go down androcks go up.
It's very important and again,if you seem very confident,
people are testing itunconsciously.
They need to know if you'reactually confident.
What they don't know is thatwe're just people trying to
serve, and we've been beaten upour whole life.
(36:11):
I think if I could extend thisolive branch.
The paradox that we've figuredout is that my fear is being the
CEO, because I'm afraid ofsuccess.
Rocks get thrown at the CEO.
Okay, jess is resonating.
Here's the paradox.
You guys ever hear that quote?
It is not our darkness but ourlight that most frightens us.
Jess (36:32):
Yes, I've heard it before.
Alan Lazaros (36:33):
It is not our darkness but our light that most
frightens us, Isn't it?
With you, Jess?
It does.
Okay, here's the paradox.
Hev was afraid to be overlooked.
I'm actually afraid to becenter stage.
Seriously, I know it doesn'tseem like it because we've
evolved, but I used to try topush him to the front of the
stage so that the rocks hit himinstead of me, but no one throws
(36:53):
rocks at him.
It's a paradox, right?
Okay?
So fear of failure, fear ofsuccess, whichever one is bigger
.
You have the opposite problemsand you have the opposite
strengths.
And that's all I'm saying isthat Jess is not going to claim
CEO.
She needs to be given it by you, Claude.
Jess (37:11):
And.
Alan Lazaros (37:11):
Claude, you've had to learn how Well that's
beautiful.
That means you're very mature.
So Kevin has had to learn howto be a number two, and I've had
to learn how to be a number one.
My deepest fear is beingdisliked and villainized.
His deepest fear is being notsignificant and not good enough.
So that's all I'm saying isthat it's very paradoxical, but
(37:35):
that's the paradox, and so weall have to face our deepest
fear.
We all have to face our deepestfear, and some of us that's
failure and not being goodenough, and some of us it's
being too much.
For others, yes, you're moreafraid to be too much than you
are of not enough, and that'sjust the truth, and we know that
.
And again, this is a publicmedium, so I didn't mean to turn
this into a coaching call.
I just wanted to extend thisfor anyone out there watching or
listening.
Yes, the paradox is facing yourdeepest fear.
(38:01):
The problem is, I always saythere's two types of people
people who are fearful and liars.
I'm afraid just not afraid ofthe same thing as Kev, and we
learned that from each other.
I never would have known thisif it wasn't for Kev and I
basically having the humility,courage and vulnerability, to
sit in the discomfort of thepost-interview with Stephen
Kotler going.
I don't understand why I was souncomfortable there Okay, why
(38:21):
wasn't I.
And I'm uncomfortable at thebarbecue.
It's like, okay, why wasn't I.
So we had these conversationsand we've learned so much from
each other, and I know you twofeel that same way.
Again, I think life is veryparadoxical and once you
identify and face it ironicallyonce Kevin faces his fear of not
being good enough, guess who'sgoing to be more than good
enough, right?
And once I face my fear ofbeing hated, now I can actually
(38:45):
have the courage to share whatis true for me, which is what
I've had to do with this entireepisode.
Basically.
Jess (38:49):
You've done it beautifully .
Alan Lazaros (38:51):
Thank you, Jess.
Jess (38:53):
All right, I'm going to ask us the last question.
If you remember, at the verybeginning I said that you would
provide for us a key lesson thatyou learned about balancing
your personal growth andmaintaining that supportive
friendship.
What would that be the coachingyou would give to your clients
or anybody listening to ourpodcast?
Kevin Palmieri (39:12):
Times, the balance that you think you want
is not actually the balance thatyou need.
Somebody sitting across fromyou will be able to see that and
say hey brother, I know youwanna like hang out and play
video games all day.
I don't really think that'swhat you deeply, deeply want,
and I do think you might regretthat at some point.
So maybe we could re-approachand revisit what balance
(39:33):
actually means from a morealigned place.
Sometimes we want to villainizethe people who give us some of
the best advice, so just sitwith it.
The balance is different foreverybody, and sometimes people
can see parts of you that youcan't see yet.
Alan Lazaros (39:52):
That would be my advice, what he's referring to
there.
If I really want to see Kevinsucceed, I want him to win.
I'm talking deep in my soul andmy heart and my mind.
I have to tell him the thingsthat I don't even want to tell
him.
I didn't want to tell him that.
That's how I know it's not forme.
I genuinely would be better offnot telling you.
Well, in the short run, In theshort run and since you're my
business partner, there's got tobe a level of accountability
(40:12):
there.
What he's referring to there isjust being vulnerable.
It's so vulnerable for me toshare my truth with Kevin
because I don't want him to feelbad about himself, but I do
want to see him win.
There's no way this could haveworked without courage, humility
and vulnerability, especially,especially vulnerability and
courage, because we've had manytears, Like seriously, we've had
(40:34):
really hard conversations, lifelife altering conversations.
I mean, we're not in this as ahobby.
This is our full-time job, thisis our career and our calling
and we we take it very, very,Take it very very seriously.
Claude (40:44):
I love to see this relationship.
Jess (40:46):
Alan and Kevin, can you guys remind our audience again
where they can find you?
Kevin Palmieri (40:50):
If you search Next Level University, you'll
find us on all the audioplatforms.
You'll find us on YouTube.
Our website isnextleveluniversecom.
And then Alan's Instagram is atA-L-A-Z-A-R-O-S and mine is at
Never Quit.
Jess (41:06):
Kid.
Kevin Palmieri (41:07):
Mine is better than Alan's, for sure.
Jess (41:11):
Alan and Kevin.
Thank you so much.
Thank you Empowered for mepersonally, Claude and I have a
lot to talk about from this andfeeling very much like you've
supported us and given us sometools and resources just within
this short conversation.
Claude (41:25):
And, I'm sure, to all the work besties, because at
some point all of them listening, they always know which one is
the Kevin slash Claude and whichone is the Jess slash Alan,
right, so why don't you drop,you know, a little message on
Instagram and let us know, oreven on YouTube, let us know
(41:46):
which one is which in your, inyour pair?
If you enjoyed this episode asmuch as we did, please don't
forget to like, subscribe andsee you next week.
Jess (42:01):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings or just sending
that perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (42:14):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
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