October 13, 2025 • 31 mins
High performance can come with hidden costs.
In this conversation, the Work Besties, Jess and Claude chat with therapist Laurel VanDerToorn, who explains why trauma and burnout can hit high achievers hard—and what real, sustainable recovery looks like. We dig into the early signs (brain fog, fatigue, cynicism), why “just take a vacation” misses the mark, and how small, repeatable behaviors compound into resilience. Laurel shares her four-layer approach—physical health → behavioral routines → deep relationships → values alignment—plus boundary-setting scripts, the Four D’s (Do, Date, Delegate, Delete), and how to protect your nervous system in 24/7 work cultures. If you’ve been feeling crispy, this one’s for you.
Key Takeaways
- High achievers face unique pressures and a heightened need for privacy.
- Vacations are a band-aid; sustainable recovery needs system-level changes.
- Catch the early signs: fatigue, brain fog, aches, rising cynicism.
- Start with small behaviors (sleep, nutrition, movement, phone hygiene).
- Physical health checks (labs, thyroid/iron) can rule out confounders.
- Relationships (yes, work besties) buffer burnout.
- Boundaries and delegation reduce overload.
- Align daily actions with personal values to lower burnout risk.
- Protect your nervous system with on-ramps/off-ramps to the workday.
Contact Laurel VanDer Toorn via her website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laurel (00:00):
Late stage burnout, it it feels like crisis.
It's that severe.
I mean, and it's that serious acondition.
Claude (00:06):
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:15):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos, andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties.
High performance sometimescomes with hidden costs, and no
one knows that.
Executives, lawyers, healthcareworkers, and entrepreneurs help
(00:38):
people heal from trauma andrediscover joy.
Today we ask, what does truehealing look like when you're
coming back from burnout or pastpain?
Welcome.
We're so excited to have you.
What do you feel makes traumaand burnout unique for those
high achievers?
Laurel (00:55):
I don't know that it's necessarily unique, but they're
coming to it with very highstakes.
And, you know, often people aredepending on them.
They have a professionalreputation.
And I don't think that thereare as many differences between
these high achievers and otherpeople who have like very
critical jobs, like teachers, ERnurses, you know, people that
(01:17):
maybe don't have fancy lettersafter their name or don't have
their name on a building.
But the stakes feel very highand there's a high need for
privacy.
And so that there's a lot ofurgency to heal and get back to
work as quick as they can.
Claude (01:32):
What do you mean, like this need of privacy?
Laurel (01:35):
Well, if someone is a public figure or, you know, the
head of a company, they havekind of a public persona, they
definitely don't want anyoneknowing they're coming to
therapy or that they arestruggling with burnout because
they have um a responsibility toemployees, sometimes to
shareholders, you know,stakeholders in the company, and
(01:56):
they need to project stabilityand health.
So there's that added pressureto create the illusion of having
it all together when maybeunderneath they don't.
Jess (02:06):
So Laurel , we both resonate with higher teething
burnout.
And it seems like you've builtthis whole element around
leveraging your skill set, whichis being a therapist, with this
style of clients.
What led you down this path?
Laurel (02:21):
I like to say that I was I was cursed with ambition
myself.
What's the next thing?
What's the next thing?
As soon as I got my license,which was a process 10 years in
the making, it was like, okay,now I need to fill my practice.
And then once I filled mypractice, I was like, this can't
be it.
This can't be the only thing.
This is not the end of theroad.
So I so I opened a grouppractice, which is essentially
hiring other therapists to comework under the umbrella of my
(02:46):
practice.
And in that, nurturing newtherapist talent, people that
are working towards theirlicense, or people that are are
not cursed with ambition and areexcellent therapists, but don't
want to have to run their ownbusiness.
I'm just wired this way.
I'm always looking for the nextthing, the next challenge.
How do I grow?
I share that with a lot of myclients who are equally
(03:08):
ambitious and driven andentrepreneurial, that they have
this innate creativity and driveand energy.
They may not know themachinations of my business, but
they sense she gets it.
She knows what it's like tohave that ambition and that
drive and to not be able to setit aside, even when you really
do need mental health care andyou're, you know, suffering
(03:30):
consequences of burnout andother experiences, trauma,
grief, anxiety.
Um, the ambition doesn'tnecessarily quiet during those
times.
So having a therapist that canhold all of it, people resonate
with that.
Jess (03:45):
I'm a big proponent of therapy and finding yourself a
therapist.
What you're honing in on is thejourney of finding a therapist.
The thing that I was mostinterested in having in that
relationship was somebody whocould relate.
I I love that you bring that upbecause I don't know that
that's something everybodythinks about with therapy.
If it's just get it and knowit, and that's not not
necessarily going to be whatworks for you.
Laurel (04:07):
The significance of the therapist match and the
personality match cannot beunderstated.
We know that 80% of why therapyworks is because you have a
good match with your therapist.
Yes.
Claude (04:19):
I totally agree with you.
Personally, I need someone tobe able to understand me and
head me to my path.
Laurel (04:27):
Sometimes when I've made a mistake as a therapist, it
becomes really rich fodder forconversation.
I've made a mistake andapologized to a client, and they
were able to say, wow, otherpeople have done something
similar to me but neverapologized.
And like to experience what arepair looks like in a healthy
relationship, that can be waymore profound than having a
(04:51):
perfect therapist.
Jess (04:52):
You actually want somebody who's going to showcase that
you're still working on thingstoo.
Laurel (04:57):
Absolutely.
Jess (04:57):
There is no such thing as a perfect person.
And I don't want to have aperfect person.
Not fun.
Um, so one of the things Iwanted to deep dive a little bit
more into is burnout.
I feel we often confuse burnoutrecovery or the ways to
overcome it with just taking avacation.
Just take some time.
(05:18):
I'm curious your perspective onthat.
Laurel (05:20):
A lot of high achievers, well, I just need a vacation.
And I will very quickly belike, no, you don't need a
vacation.
We all need vacations from timeto time.
What they actually want is somekind of radical, magical
change.
And that doesn't come with aone or two week or even a
one-month vacation becausethey'll come back to the same
work patterns, the same mindset,the same environment that
(05:44):
created the need for the break.
A vacation is a band-aid.
And if you don't fundamentallymake some subtle but necessary
changes, you're just going tokeep being in this loop of
needing that vacation.
Claude (05:56):
Your clients must be trusting you because you
implemented all those tools.
Laurel (06:02):
Yes, absolutely.
And to understand what works totreat burnout, we have to
understand what causes burnout.
So it's it's really twofold.
One is um a work environmentwhere you don't have a lot of
control, where it's just kind oflike you're in a high stress
environment where you don't havea lot of say, and a
pathological pattern of notprioritizing yourself.
(06:24):
And that's the part that youcan control.
A lot of ambitious-drivenpeople are used to sacrificing
themselves.
They're used to saying, youknow what, I can pull an
all-nighter so that we get thisbrief drafted.
It's okay if I am apart from mypartner for a month while I'm
negotiating this deal in Dubai.
Like it's okay.
I'm gonna skip lunch to makesure that this client gets what
(06:45):
they need in time, right?
And on small, on a small level,those kinds of things do
occasionally happen and areokay.
Not here to be like, no, youcan never sacrifice yourself for
work.
But if you are constantly doingthat, you're absolutely gonna
burn out.
Claude (07:02):
So, what are the first signs of burnout?
Laurel (07:06):
With my clients, I notice a lot of somatic
complaints.
So, like aches and pains,feeling more tired, fatigued,
any existing health problems aregonna get a little worse.
You're gonna catch more coldsand viruses.
There's kind of a tiredness andbrain fog.
It creeps in subtly.
Driven people are used topushing through discomfort.
(07:27):
Driven people are pretty goodat muscling through that initial
discomfort because it does justfeel like I'm in a little bit
of a funk.
But it just progresses overtime.
When you're at moderateburnout, you're really tired,
you're starting to get morecynical, you're having more
physical aches and pains, andevery little thing is like
(07:47):
annoying or feels like the endof the world.
What is important versus whatis not important gets really
scrambled.
Jess (07:55):
We're laughing because I pass right burnout.
Laurel (07:58):
Okay, okay.
Yes.
Yep.
Late stage burnout, it feelslike crisis.
Like you cannot keep going.
If I have to go into the officeone more day, I'm gonna scream.
Your significant healthproblems, sleep disruption,
major anxiety and depression,your nervous system is
(08:19):
completely out of whack, right?
It's a very slippery slopebecause that early stage is
like, I can handle this.
And in the middle stage, you'relike, wait, wait, this doesn't
feel good.
And then you get to that latestage.
I have not yet worked withsomeone who's in that late stage
of burnout that didn't need togo on medical leave to recover.
It's that severe.
I mean, and it's that serious acondition.
(08:40):
I've I've actually reallyenjoyed working with people who
need to go on medical leave forburnout because it got bad
enough that they're actuallywilling to make some change and
to implement lifestyle medicineand to examine their values and
priorities more critically thanthey would have if it hadn't
gotten that bad.
So so it really needs to betaken seriously from the start.
Claude (09:01):
Before we go to that steps, yeah, what are the tools
that we can start?
Yeah.
Laurel (09:07):
I look at it very behaviorally.
What small behaviors can westart to change?
Because a big life overhaul,like moving to a new city,
quitting your job, all of that,like it's kind of like sexy, but
it doesn't actually solve theproblem.
You're gonna end up in the sameposition that you are now if
you don't make some changes.
So this leads into like myprotocol for burnout recovery
(09:30):
and prevention, honestly.
If you're not burned out, Ihighly recommend that you
implement these things now toprevent it.
So I look at it as four layers.
If you imagine there's like aglobe and you cut that globe,
you get that intersection of theglobe.
The outer crust of that globeis your physical health.
So very concrete medicalthings.
Whenever someone comes to workwith me, I asked them the last
(09:53):
time they had a physical.
And if it hasn't been recently,um, I recommend that they go
see their doctor.
If they don't have a doctor,they need to get a doctor and
just get some routine lab work.
Particularly for women, I wantto make sure that their iron and
their thyroid has been checkedrecently because iron deficiency
and thyroid conditions can feela lot like burnout because
(10:14):
you're exhausted.
It's like pushing that boulderup a cliff.
And I don't want to work withsomeone for a year treating them
for depression or burnout whenit was a thyroid condition.
So I want to rule that out.
Get basic lab work done andmake sure you're all good there.
If you know you have a medicalcondition that's contributing,
you need to address that.
If you know you're anemic andyou're not taking your iron
(10:36):
supplements, how do we make surethat you're taking them when
you need to take them?
Do we put them by yourtoothbrush?
Do we have a phone alarm?
What's the system here?
Your physical health, you canmake a lot of progress just
addressing those medical,physical issues, right?
But if if everything is mostlygood there, then we go to the
next layer, which is thebehavioral layer of your health.
(10:57):
Now, these are all of thethings we know we're supposed to
do to perform at our best.
And yet it's really hard tooperationalize them because they
don't seem like a highpriority.
So I work with people torecognize sleep, eating, and
moving your body are the highestpriorities that you have to
have when you're burnt out.
So, how do we protect yoursleep?
(11:19):
Get an alarm clock, put yourphone in another room.
That's one of my favoritethings.
And it's so hard to do.
It is so hard to do becausewe're so addicted to our phones.
But just try it.
Try it for a month, see how itgoes.
I also have a couple of appsthat I love that block your
access to certain apps atcertain times, or they make it
(11:39):
annoying to open the app.
So you just kind of stop.
I have a 45-second delay onInstagram.
So I just mostly don't openInstagram.
The app I use is called OneSec.
It's a little annoying to setup, but once it's set up, it's
great.
So these behavioral things likeeating, sleeping, moving your
body.
I honestly have to spend a goodamount of time with people and
(11:59):
figuring out how we're gonnaprioritize these.
Sometimes it's eliminatingdecision fatigue.
So, like we're gonna have thesame thing for breakfast every
day, even if we don't enjoy it,just to make sure we eat every
day, eliminating a lot of themental work that has to go into
these things.
Accountability buddies aregreat.
Maybe you have a regularmeeting, you make it a walking
(12:20):
meeting so that you're actuallymoving.
And that's always the excuse.
I don't have time to move mybody, I don't have time to cook,
I don't have time to sleep.
Figuring that out and pointingout they do have time.
The mental mindset shift comesafter the behavior shift.
Once you realize how muchbetter you feel sleeping and
eating regularly and moving yourbody, then you become more
(12:43):
willing to do it.
But you have to just makeyourself do it for a while.
Claude (12:46):
It's so funny how yesterday uh I had a very
stressful day, and I'm like, andI never live at five, ever.
And I'm like, okay, I'm leavingat five, I'm going to swim
because I need to do that.
And that is something it's kindof new, good for you, and proud
of you, but it was realizing,okay, I I I can't, even if I'm
(13:08):
going to continue, I'm going tobe useless.
Laurel (13:11):
I don't care if you put in a 14-hour day if seven of
those hours were garbage.
You get mental clarity bytaking breaks.
Sometimes it's a small break,and sometimes it's I need to go
to that workout class for anhour and sweat.
And like part of what happenswhen you move your body is you
complete the stress cycle.
So your nervous system actuallystarts to come down after
(13:33):
you've moved in a way that isreally important for burnout
recovery.
So then the last thing I'll sayin the behavior layer, look at
your substance use.
Because people that are verystressed, it's easy to have a
glass of wine or two or three orfour at the end of a day.
And that is, I like to say it'slike buying on credit.
Like the bill does come due andit's a net negative, even if
(13:55):
it's a short-term relief, itcreates debt.
Just looking at that, maybe youconsider taking a month off or
two months off of drinking orusing substances just while
you're trying to get back to ahealthy baseline.
Jess (14:09):
Absolutely.
I said there were four layers.
Laurel (14:12):
The third layer is deep loving relationships.
These can be a work bestie,right?
That is a natural burnoutprotection.
Like having a meaningfulrelationship with someone at
work really helps preventburnout.
When we feel isolated, when wefeel disconnected, we're much
more likely to burn out.
But this is also friendshipsoutside of work.
(14:32):
This is a healthy partnership,family relationships,
friendships, pets.
When we don't put time andenergy into those relationships
because all we're doing isworking, we get out of balance
and our health suffers and ourmental health suffers.
So investing in friendships isone of the best things you can
do for your mental health.
Jess (14:51):
We love hearing that.
Laurel (14:52):
Recognize it's really hard to make new friends as an
adult.
And it's all hard to know howto deepen relationships as an
adult.
How do you make that leap froma work friend to like a really
good personal friend you seeoutside of work?
One recommendation is look forpeople who are in transition.
People who just moved or justhad a baby or just got a divorce
(15:15):
or just got promoted.
When people are in transition,they're naturally more open to
building new relationships,right?
And then the other is tojudiciously be vulnerable.
Now, don't trauma dump, don'tgo too fast too far, but like to
be willing to be like, yeah,man, like I'm struggling with a
little bit of burnout, or likeI'm a little unclear on my new
(15:39):
role at work, and it's giving mesome anxiety.
These little bits ofvulnerability signal to them
that you're wanting to deepenthe relationship.
People that do trauma dump orgo too fast is because they
really want that closeness andconnection, and they just don't
know how to make it happen.
And there's a little bit of Ineed support, I need closeness,
but honestly, time is the mostimportant ingredient often.
(16:01):
So you've given us now forpiggybacks on the relationships,
but it's a bit of an expansion.
Some people would call it yourspiritual health.
A lot of people I work withdon't like that term because it
calls up religion.
I look, I work with a lot ofLGBT folks that maybe have
religious trauma.
It's not necessarily religion,although if you are religious,
great.
It's a strong sense of yourpersonal values and feeling like
(16:26):
you are operationalizing thosevalues in your daily life.
I work with a lot of peoplewhere we'll we'll do a values
sort.
Like what is traits and idealsare most important to you?
For some of them, it'ssecurity, intelligence, fun, and
family.
When they make decisions abouthow they're spending their time
and their money, they consultthose values.
(16:48):
Security, fun, family,intelligence.
And we are much less likely toget burned out if we feel like
our values are being lived outevery day.
The work is in conflict withtheir values.
A lot of lawyers that work fora major firm, they don't get a
say in what cases they'reassigned to.
And they're like, this work isin conflict with my values.
(17:08):
It's finding other ways tooperationalize your values.
Yeah, it could be outside ofwork or it could be at work.
Maybe you join an ERG or anaffinity group that's doing work
that you find meaningful atwork.
It's it's a way tooperationalize those values.
Claude (17:27):
So more or less you compensate for something that
though I love those four layers.
Now you have those highachievers, right?
The companies used to have themfrom eight o'clock in the
morning to ten o'clock at night,always available.
What happens now that thoseindividuals to avoid the burnout
(17:51):
and decide to prioritize theirwell-being and so they might be
leaving earlier than they usedto?
What is the response of thecompany?
Laurel (18:00):
A lot of people are afraid of that.
Claude (18:02):
Yeah.
Laurel (18:02):
It's the the pushback or you know, the consequence is
usually so minuscule compared towhat they anticipated.
But most of the time, it isokay to go to a workout class
for an hour and respond to anemail or a message an hour
later.
Now, very occasionally it'snot.
But the tr the key here is nothaving your nervous system
(18:26):
available to work 24-7, right?
You might check your email, butnot go into that like full work
anxiety mode.
How do you protect your nervoussystem against the onslaught it
experiences around work?
That's gonna look a littledifferent for each person.
If you've done really attendingto all four layers of your
(18:47):
health, your nervous system isgonna be pretty well protected.
It's on a case-by-case basis.
I like to make sure people aregetting some on-ramp and
off-ramp at the end of the day.
You cannot reach for your phoneand check your work email first
thing in the morning.
That's just like giving yournervous system a giant jolt of
adrenaline.
It's so bad for you.
Even if you do five minutes,get up, you know, brush your
(19:11):
teeth, make your coffee, and Ilike to go sit out on my little,
you know, my little apartmentbalcony a few minutes, and then
I'll check my email.
Work isn't gonna know that Itook five minutes for myself,
but it makes a significantdifference in your nervous
system response.
And similarly, at the end ofthe day, you log off and then
(19:32):
give yourself 20, 30, ideally anhour of reading an actual book
or cuddling with your pet orundivided attention with your
partner, something that meetsone of those four layers of
health.
That's the mindset shift.
When you mentally protectyourself and your nervous
system, you're gonna feel a lotbetter.
Claude (19:52):
And I'm sure that there's going to be a positive
result to your work.
Laurel (19:57):
Absolutely.
The quality of work goes upsignificantly, and people are
actually more productive.
They feel like they have morefree time because they're more
efficient.
And it is the case in manyindustries that when you do good
work, you're rewarded by beinggiven more work.
A lot of people I work withstruggle to say no and set
boundaries to say, I've alreadybeen assigned six cases this
(20:20):
month.
I cannot take on anymore.
Whereas previously they wouldhave just been like, okay, yeah.
But saying, here's what I haveon my plate.
What would you like me to getrid of so I can take on this
other thing?
That can go a long way.
Claude (20:32):
Which is true because people don't realize how much
you have on your plate until youshow it.
I'm like, I have this, this,this, and this.
Laurel (20:40):
And putting it on a manager, which of these things
is most important to you that Iaccomplish?
Because I cannot do all ofthem.
Can you help me prioritize ifyou are going to ask me to do
all these things?
Jess (20:52):
You help or work with CEOs or C-suite level.
Knowing boundary setting issomething all need to work on,
even CEOs.
Laurel (21:00):
Yeah.
Jess (21:01):
What are tools that you're training them to help
understand that they've now justoverloaded the team?
Because the next step is theyturn around and they say, Well,
I get to delegate.
I can't do it all.
So now you all do it.
Laurel (21:15):
You know, I don't find that my clients are
over-delegating.
They're under-delegating.
People that are burning out areless likely to delegate.
So something I work with peopleon is I call it the four Ds.
Everything in your work lifeand your personal life falls
into four categories.
Do, date, delegate, delete.
(21:35):
Do is something you need to doright away.
Like pick your sick kid up fromschool.
That needs to be done rightnow.
We cannot schedule this.
We cannot delegate.
Like it has to be you.
Date is like things you canschedule.
We need to have a conversationabout this.
Let's schedule it for nextTuesday at 10 a.m.
It's not extremely urgent.
It's important.
So it's gonna like getsomething on the schedule.
(21:56):
We need to go over the budget,but not urgent.
Delegate is things that need tobe done, but not by you.
And a lot of ambitious peoplestruggle with this because
there's a little bit of ego.
I do it better.
I'm the only one that knows howto do this.
I have a good number of othertherapists in my life that run
similar practices.
They employ other therapistsand they really struggle to
(22:20):
delegate things because likethey are running this small
business.
They we need to check our egosbecause a lot of the time
someone else can do it and do itbetter and quicker, right?
So this delegate category iswhere a lot of people need to
exercise more of their authorityin delegating things.
And then the final category isdelete, which is like things do
(22:41):
not need to be done, aren't apriority or a waste of time.
Social media or things thataren't great for you.
Things that like they're notserving the company or the
business, they're not helpingyou, they're not building a more
meaningful life or nurturingyour relationships.
Claude (22:58):
I know it simplifies category, and now it puts you in
perspective.
Okay, what uh where am Iputting this right now?
Which one?
Laurel (23:06):
The people I work with, they feel like everything is in
that do category.
Like it all needs to be doneand it needs to be done today.
Sometimes that is true.
There is something that needsto be done today.
And if you have some controlover your schedule and you can
book out periods of deep workwhere you can concentrate on
something for a long period oftime, you're gonna get way more
(23:29):
done and think more deeply andbe more strategic about it.
So this urgency that everythingneeds to get done now, it
actually robs you of anystrategy that might set you up
for success, might help you worksmarter, not harder.
Claude (23:43):
That's your each time.
Work smarter, not harder.
Working with those CEOs, do youthink that they actually
implement the layers or the 4Ds?
Do they then also reciprocateto their team?
Because I'm sure that the CEOis burnt out, I'm sure that
everyone's team is burnt out.
Laurel (24:04):
Yeah, well, in in the therapy world, there's this
saying, as above, so below, thatlike if the therapist is
walking their talk, the clientsare more likely to like follow
through because they can sense,like, and I think it's the same
in companies, it's the same infamilies.
You know, when the kids see theparents working on healthy
communication and making surethey are taking care of their
(24:27):
own needs, then the kid feelsmore relaxed.
The adults are okay, I'm okay.
And you know what?
I also am gonna take care ofmyself and I'm gonna be more
empowered in my self-efficacyand my like initiative because I
see we all need to takeresponsibility for ourselves.
Whereas if mom is only takingcare of other people and is
(24:49):
constantly falling apart, thekid's gonna be more anxious
because the adults maybe don'thave it all together here.
Jess (24:55):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a good example ofmodeling.
You had written an articleabout everything you should know
if you're considering medicalleave for burnout.
Sharing with us what that firststep is to take that time off.
Laurel (25:08):
Anyone that's considering medical leave for
burnout, there's gonna be a lotof anxiety, even identity
crisis.
Who am I if I don't go to workevery day?
Who am I if I'm not practicinglaw or whatever field they're
in?
A lot of worry that people willthink less of them if they go
on leave, that it's a sign ofweakness.
(25:28):
Whereas if they had been in amajor car accident or they
needed to get medical care thatwas not for their mental health,
like there wouldn't be as muchanxiety and shame around it.
There might still be someanxiety and shame around it, but
not to the degree.
My experience with the peopleI've worked with who have taken
medical leave for burnout isthat it goes pretty smoothly.
(25:52):
It they get less resistance andless shame and criticism than
they expect.
FMLA, medical leave, it'slegally protected.
You get 12 weeks a year that'scovered in some state.
I'm in California, we're verylucky.
Our short-term state disabilityinsurance covers this.
So you actually get a portionof your pay while you're on
(26:14):
leave.
And many companies also have amedical leave policy where you
do get some pay.
Financial anxiety can be asignificant part of it.
But the first step is to go toyour HR department or look at
your benefits package andevaluate like what is the
feasibility of taking leavehere?
What's the procedure?
What are the first steps?
Um, because it's going to bedifferent if you're at a major
company versus someone in mypractice.
(26:37):
So that's the first step.
Jess (26:38):
Knowing that our community is all about work besties and
thinking about things that theythemselves can better.
From your perspective, whatdoes a strong support system
look like?
Laurel (26:49):
Knowing you are loved and cared for and feeling that
same love and care for them,right?
It's a felt sense of care andcommunity.
There's kind of a systemicequilibrium.
When one person really needs abreak or is in poor health, the
other, the rest of the systemwill support them.
And then when they come back tohealth, they will care for
(27:11):
others.
That there's this, this likehomeostasis that gets maintained
within the relationship or thefamily or the work environment.
Jess (27:22):
Laurel, do you have a work bestie yourself?
Laurel (27:24):
Ooh, I'm lucky.
I have a bunch.
Um, I am part of a mastermindgroup.
We meet every other week and wejust organized ourselves.
We met at a conference threeyears ago, and I had just
started my group practice, mymulti-clinician practice, and I
knew I needed some work bestiesbecause I know many therapists,
(27:45):
but I didn't know that manypeople doing what I was doing.
So I went to this conferenceand I specifically organized a
lunch for people that like hadsimilar business models.
And then we like met on Zoomand we like created this group.
We got very lucky.
Like we intentionally soughtout these relationships.
I have a group of people thatwe have such complementary
(28:07):
skills.
One person, like she's thefinance girl, one girl is the
marketing person.
Like one person is like the HRand culture person, and then I'm
the systems girl.
Like, so we have this reallygreat symbiotic relationship,
the four of us, and we we traveltogether a couple times a year.
We pick a fun city, and then wego do a very intense working
(28:29):
weekend, and then we go havesome fun in that city too.
So, yes, I'm very lucky.
I have three work besties, andI'll give them a shout-out, Amy,
Courtney, and Veronica.
And I would not be where I amtoday, and I would not be as
balanced and kind of healthy inmy approach to the being the
ambitious therapist I am if Ididn't have them.
Jess (28:51):
I love that you guys found each other and found a way to
continue this.
That's that's amazing.
Claude (28:57):
And and I think also what was great is that you
realized you needed that.
So you seeked out.
It's like seeking those peopleand also, like you say, being
vulnerable earlier, right?
Laurel (29:08):
We are so vulnerable with each other.
We talk about what we'restruggling with, and we're very
direct with each other.
Hey, you are not doing this,and your business isn't growing
or your business is sufferingbecause of it.
And we just created thisculture of being very loving but
very direct with each other.
Claude (29:26):
You're holding each other accountable, you're not
just being vulnerable.
Which is really what isfriendship, right?
You don't want to always have ayes, no, no, no.
You want someone to say, okay,you're going crazy right now.
Laurel (29:36):
Yeah, it's the radical candor construct.
The radical candor is like youcare personally and challenge
directly.
And if you're not doing one ofthose things, your communication
is incongruous and and not asimpactful as it could be.
Jess (29:52):
But Laurel, um, how can our listeners connect with you?
Laurel (29:56):
The best way is our website, Laureltherapy.net.
We do have Instagram, Facebook,LinkedIn.
Um, if people are looking tostart therapy, please go through
the website.
You can email us info atlauraltherapy.net.
That comes right to me, and I'mhappy to be in touch.
Jess (30:13):
I love that.
We have one last question foryou.
Yeah.
What's that one piece of adviceyou'd give your younger self
knowing what you know now?
Laurel (30:23):
I was very lucky in that I received the advice that I
would give.
Um, I was 17, and this teachersaid it's gonna be a lot easier
to be yourself at 27 than it isto be yourself at 17.
And I think that that continuesbecause it was you it was so
much easier to be myself at 37than it was to be 27.
(30:44):
So I'm hoping the trend justkeeps going and looking good so
far.
Jess (30:49):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much for this.
This has really been healingfor us.
Oh yes for our work bestiecommunity.
We so appreciate you sharingthose transformational tools,
and I hope our work bestiecommunity takes hold of them.
Claude (31:03):
Work besties.
If this resonated, please shareit with someone who's burning
out or healing from trauma.
Let's normalize recovery aspart of work culture and hit the
subscribe and share with yourwork besties.
Thank you.
See you next week.
Jess (31:20):
Remember, whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending that perfectly timedmeme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (31:33):
So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the
chaos, and of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive, and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties!
Late stage burnout, it it feels like crisis.
It's that severe.
I mean, and it's that serious acondition.
Claude (00:06):
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:15):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos, andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties.
High performance sometimescomes with hidden costs, and no
one knows that.
Executives, lawyers, healthcareworkers, and entrepreneurs help
(00:38):
people heal from trauma andrediscover joy.
Today we ask, what does truehealing look like when you're
coming back from burnout or pastpain?
Welcome.
We're so excited to have you.
What do you feel makes traumaand burnout unique for those
high achievers?
Laurel (00:55):
I don't know that it's necessarily unique, but they're
coming to it with very highstakes.
And, you know, often people aredepending on them.
They have a professionalreputation.
And I don't think that thereare as many differences between
these high achievers and otherpeople who have like very
critical jobs, like teachers, ERnurses, you know, people that
(01:17):
maybe don't have fancy lettersafter their name or don't have
their name on a building.
But the stakes feel very highand there's a high need for
privacy.
And so that there's a lot ofurgency to heal and get back to
work as quick as they can.
Claude (01:32):
What do you mean, like this need of privacy?
Laurel (01:35):
Well, if someone is a public figure or, you know, the
head of a company, they havekind of a public persona, they
definitely don't want anyoneknowing they're coming to
therapy or that they arestruggling with burnout because
they have um a responsibility toemployees, sometimes to
shareholders, you know,stakeholders in the company, and
(01:56):
they need to project stabilityand health.
So there's that added pressureto create the illusion of having
it all together when maybeunderneath they don't.
Jess (02:06):
So Laurel , we both resonate with higher teething
burnout.
And it seems like you've builtthis whole element around
leveraging your skill set, whichis being a therapist, with this
style of clients.
What led you down this path?
Laurel (02:21):
I like to say that I was I was cursed with ambition
myself.
What's the next thing?
What's the next thing?
As soon as I got my license,which was a process 10 years in
the making, it was like, okay,now I need to fill my practice.
And then once I filled mypractice, I was like, this can't
be it.
This can't be the only thing.
This is not the end of theroad.
So I so I opened a grouppractice, which is essentially
hiring other therapists to comework under the umbrella of my
(02:46):
practice.
And in that, nurturing newtherapist talent, people that
are working towards theirlicense, or people that are are
not cursed with ambition and areexcellent therapists, but don't
want to have to run their ownbusiness.
I'm just wired this way.
I'm always looking for the nextthing, the next challenge.
How do I grow?
I share that with a lot of myclients who are equally
(03:08):
ambitious and driven andentrepreneurial, that they have
this innate creativity and driveand energy.
They may not know themachinations of my business, but
they sense she gets it.
She knows what it's like tohave that ambition and that
drive and to not be able to setit aside, even when you really
do need mental health care andyou're, you know, suffering
(03:30):
consequences of burnout andother experiences, trauma,
grief, anxiety.
Um, the ambition doesn'tnecessarily quiet during those
times.
So having a therapist that canhold all of it, people resonate
with that.
Jess (03:45):
I'm a big proponent of therapy and finding yourself a
therapist.
What you're honing in on is thejourney of finding a therapist.
The thing that I was mostinterested in having in that
relationship was somebody whocould relate.
I I love that you bring that upbecause I don't know that
that's something everybodythinks about with therapy.
If it's just get it and knowit, and that's not not
necessarily going to be whatworks for you.
Laurel (04:07):
The significance of the therapist match and the
personality match cannot beunderstated.
We know that 80% of why therapyworks is because you have a
good match with your therapist.
Yes.
Claude (04:19):
I totally agree with you.
Personally, I need someone tobe able to understand me and
head me to my path.
Laurel (04:27):
Sometimes when I've made a mistake as a therapist, it
becomes really rich fodder forconversation.
I've made a mistake andapologized to a client, and they
were able to say, wow, otherpeople have done something
similar to me but neverapologized.
And like to experience what arepair looks like in a healthy
relationship, that can be waymore profound than having a
(04:51):
perfect therapist.
Jess (04:52):
You actually want somebody who's going to showcase that
you're still working on thingstoo.
Laurel (04:57):
Absolutely.
Jess (04:57):
There is no such thing as a perfect person.
And I don't want to have aperfect person.
Not fun.
Um, so one of the things Iwanted to deep dive a little bit
more into is burnout.
I feel we often confuse burnoutrecovery or the ways to
overcome it with just taking avacation.
Just take some time.
(05:18):
I'm curious your perspective onthat.
Laurel (05:20):
A lot of high achievers, well, I just need a vacation.
And I will very quickly belike, no, you don't need a
vacation.
We all need vacations from timeto time.
What they actually want is somekind of radical, magical
change.
And that doesn't come with aone or two week or even a
one-month vacation becausethey'll come back to the same
work patterns, the same mindset,the same environment that
(05:44):
created the need for the break.
A vacation is a band-aid.
And if you don't fundamentallymake some subtle but necessary
changes, you're just going tokeep being in this loop of
needing that vacation.
Claude (05:56):
Your clients must be trusting you because you
implemented all those tools.
Laurel (06:02):
Yes, absolutely.
And to understand what works totreat burnout, we have to
understand what causes burnout.
So it's it's really twofold.
One is um a work environmentwhere you don't have a lot of
control, where it's just kind oflike you're in a high stress
environment where you don't havea lot of say, and a
pathological pattern of notprioritizing yourself.
(06:24):
And that's the part that youcan control.
A lot of ambitious-drivenpeople are used to sacrificing
themselves.
They're used to saying, youknow what, I can pull an
all-nighter so that we get thisbrief drafted.
It's okay if I am apart from mypartner for a month while I'm
negotiating this deal in Dubai.
Like it's okay.
I'm gonna skip lunch to makesure that this client gets what
(06:45):
they need in time, right?
And on small, on a small level,those kinds of things do
occasionally happen and areokay.
Not here to be like, no, youcan never sacrifice yourself for
work.
But if you are constantly doingthat, you're absolutely gonna
burn out.
Claude (07:02):
So, what are the first signs of burnout?
Laurel (07:06):
With my clients, I notice a lot of somatic
complaints.
So, like aches and pains,feeling more tired, fatigued,
any existing health problems aregonna get a little worse.
You're gonna catch more coldsand viruses.
There's kind of a tiredness andbrain fog.
It creeps in subtly.
Driven people are used topushing through discomfort.
(07:27):
Driven people are pretty goodat muscling through that initial
discomfort because it does justfeel like I'm in a little bit
of a funk.
But it just progresses overtime.
When you're at moderateburnout, you're really tired,
you're starting to get morecynical, you're having more
physical aches and pains, andevery little thing is like
(07:47):
annoying or feels like the endof the world.
What is important versus whatis not important gets really
scrambled.
Jess (07:55):
We're laughing because I pass right burnout.
Laurel (07:58):
Okay, okay.
Yes.
Yep.
Late stage burnout, it feelslike crisis.
Like you cannot keep going.
If I have to go into the officeone more day, I'm gonna scream.
Your significant healthproblems, sleep disruption,
major anxiety and depression,your nervous system is
(08:19):
completely out of whack, right?
It's a very slippery slopebecause that early stage is
like, I can handle this.
And in the middle stage, you'relike, wait, wait, this doesn't
feel good.
And then you get to that latestage.
I have not yet worked withsomeone who's in that late stage
of burnout that didn't need togo on medical leave to recover.
It's that severe.
I mean, and it's that serious acondition.
(08:40):
I've I've actually reallyenjoyed working with people who
need to go on medical leave forburnout because it got bad
enough that they're actuallywilling to make some change and
to implement lifestyle medicineand to examine their values and
priorities more critically thanthey would have if it hadn't
gotten that bad.
So so it really needs to betaken seriously from the start.
Claude (09:01):
Before we go to that steps, yeah, what are the tools
that we can start?
Yeah.
Laurel (09:07):
I look at it very behaviorally.
What small behaviors can westart to change?
Because a big life overhaul,like moving to a new city,
quitting your job, all of that,like it's kind of like sexy, but
it doesn't actually solve theproblem.
You're gonna end up in the sameposition that you are now if
you don't make some changes.
So this leads into like myprotocol for burnout recovery
(09:30):
and prevention, honestly.
If you're not burned out, Ihighly recommend that you
implement these things now toprevent it.
So I look at it as four layers.
If you imagine there's like aglobe and you cut that globe,
you get that intersection of theglobe.
The outer crust of that globeis your physical health.
So very concrete medicalthings.
Whenever someone comes to workwith me, I asked them the last
(09:53):
time they had a physical.
And if it hasn't been recently,um, I recommend that they go
see their doctor.
If they don't have a doctor,they need to get a doctor and
just get some routine lab work.
Particularly for women, I wantto make sure that their iron and
their thyroid has been checkedrecently because iron deficiency
and thyroid conditions can feela lot like burnout because
(10:14):
you're exhausted.
It's like pushing that boulderup a cliff.
And I don't want to work withsomeone for a year treating them
for depression or burnout whenit was a thyroid condition.
So I want to rule that out.
Get basic lab work done andmake sure you're all good there.
If you know you have a medicalcondition that's contributing,
you need to address that.
If you know you're anemic andyou're not taking your iron
(10:36):
supplements, how do we make surethat you're taking them when
you need to take them?
Do we put them by yourtoothbrush?
Do we have a phone alarm?
What's the system here?
Your physical health, you canmake a lot of progress just
addressing those medical,physical issues, right?
But if if everything is mostlygood there, then we go to the
next layer, which is thebehavioral layer of your health.
(10:57):
Now, these are all of thethings we know we're supposed to
do to perform at our best.
And yet it's really hard tooperationalize them because they
don't seem like a highpriority.
So I work with people torecognize sleep, eating, and
moving your body are the highestpriorities that you have to
have when you're burnt out.
So, how do we protect yoursleep?
(11:19):
Get an alarm clock, put yourphone in another room.
That's one of my favoritethings.
And it's so hard to do.
It is so hard to do becausewe're so addicted to our phones.
But just try it.
Try it for a month, see how itgoes.
I also have a couple of appsthat I love that block your
access to certain apps atcertain times, or they make it
(11:39):
annoying to open the app.
So you just kind of stop.
I have a 45-second delay onInstagram.
So I just mostly don't openInstagram.
The app I use is called OneSec.
It's a little annoying to setup, but once it's set up, it's
great.
So these behavioral things likeeating, sleeping, moving your
body.
I honestly have to spend a goodamount of time with people and
(11:59):
figuring out how we're gonnaprioritize these.
Sometimes it's eliminatingdecision fatigue.
So, like we're gonna have thesame thing for breakfast every
day, even if we don't enjoy it,just to make sure we eat every
day, eliminating a lot of themental work that has to go into
these things.
Accountability buddies aregreat.
Maybe you have a regularmeeting, you make it a walking
(12:20):
meeting so that you're actuallymoving.
And that's always the excuse.
I don't have time to move mybody, I don't have time to cook,
I don't have time to sleep.
Figuring that out and pointingout they do have time.
The mental mindset shift comesafter the behavior shift.
Once you realize how muchbetter you feel sleeping and
eating regularly and moving yourbody, then you become more
(12:43):
willing to do it.
But you have to just makeyourself do it for a while.
Claude (12:46):
It's so funny how yesterday uh I had a very
stressful day, and I'm like, andI never live at five, ever.
And I'm like, okay, I'm leavingat five, I'm going to swim
because I need to do that.
And that is something it's kindof new, good for you, and proud
of you, but it was realizing,okay, I I I can't, even if I'm
(13:08):
going to continue, I'm going tobe useless.
Laurel (13:11):
I don't care if you put in a 14-hour day if seven of
those hours were garbage.
You get mental clarity bytaking breaks.
Sometimes it's a small break,and sometimes it's I need to go
to that workout class for anhour and sweat.
And like part of what happenswhen you move your body is you
complete the stress cycle.
So your nervous system actuallystarts to come down after
(13:33):
you've moved in a way that isreally important for burnout
recovery.
So then the last thing I'll sayin the behavior layer, look at
your substance use.
Because people that are verystressed, it's easy to have a
glass of wine or two or three orfour at the end of a day.
And that is, I like to say it'slike buying on credit.
Like the bill does come due andit's a net negative, even if
(13:55):
it's a short-term relief, itcreates debt.
Just looking at that, maybe youconsider taking a month off or
two months off of drinking orusing substances just while
you're trying to get back to ahealthy baseline.
Jess (14:09):
Absolutely.
I said there were four layers.
Laurel (14:12):
The third layer is deep loving relationships.
These can be a work bestie,right?
That is a natural burnoutprotection.
Like having a meaningfulrelationship with someone at
work really helps preventburnout.
When we feel isolated, when wefeel disconnected, we're much
more likely to burn out.
But this is also friendshipsoutside of work.
(14:32):
This is a healthy partnership,family relationships,
friendships, pets.
When we don't put time andenergy into those relationships
because all we're doing isworking, we get out of balance
and our health suffers and ourmental health suffers.
So investing in friendships isone of the best things you can
do for your mental health.
Jess (14:51):
We love hearing that.
Laurel (14:52):
Recognize it's really hard to make new friends as an
adult.
And it's all hard to know howto deepen relationships as an
adult.
How do you make that leap froma work friend to like a really
good personal friend you seeoutside of work?
One recommendation is look forpeople who are in transition.
People who just moved or justhad a baby or just got a divorce
(15:15):
or just got promoted.
When people are in transition,they're naturally more open to
building new relationships,right?
And then the other is tojudiciously be vulnerable.
Now, don't trauma dump, don'tgo too fast too far, but like to
be willing to be like, yeah,man, like I'm struggling with a
little bit of burnout, or likeI'm a little unclear on my new
(15:39):
role at work, and it's giving mesome anxiety.
These little bits ofvulnerability signal to them
that you're wanting to deepenthe relationship.
People that do trauma dump orgo too fast is because they
really want that closeness andconnection, and they just don't
know how to make it happen.
And there's a little bit of Ineed support, I need closeness,
but honestly, time is the mostimportant ingredient often.
(16:01):
So you've given us now forpiggybacks on the relationships,
but it's a bit of an expansion.
Some people would call it yourspiritual health.
A lot of people I work withdon't like that term because it
calls up religion.
I look, I work with a lot ofLGBT folks that maybe have
religious trauma.
It's not necessarily religion,although if you are religious,
great.
It's a strong sense of yourpersonal values and feeling like
(16:26):
you are operationalizing thosevalues in your daily life.
I work with a lot of peoplewhere we'll we'll do a values
sort.
Like what is traits and idealsare most important to you?
For some of them, it'ssecurity, intelligence, fun, and
family.
When they make decisions abouthow they're spending their time
and their money, they consultthose values.
(16:48):
Security, fun, family,intelligence.
And we are much less likely toget burned out if we feel like
our values are being lived outevery day.
The work is in conflict withtheir values.
A lot of lawyers that work fora major firm, they don't get a
say in what cases they'reassigned to.
And they're like, this work isin conflict with my values.
(17:08):
It's finding other ways tooperationalize your values.
Yeah, it could be outside ofwork or it could be at work.
Maybe you join an ERG or anaffinity group that's doing work
that you find meaningful atwork.
It's it's a way tooperationalize those values.
Claude (17:27):
So more or less you compensate for something that
though I love those four layers.
Now you have those highachievers, right?
The companies used to have themfrom eight o'clock in the
morning to ten o'clock at night,always available.
What happens now that thoseindividuals to avoid the burnout
(17:51):
and decide to prioritize theirwell-being and so they might be
leaving earlier than they usedto?
What is the response of thecompany?
Laurel (18:00):
A lot of people are afraid of that.
Claude (18:02):
Yeah.
Laurel (18:02):
It's the the pushback or you know, the consequence is
usually so minuscule compared towhat they anticipated.
But most of the time, it isokay to go to a workout class
for an hour and respond to anemail or a message an hour
later.
Now, very occasionally it'snot.
But the tr the key here is nothaving your nervous system
(18:26):
available to work 24-7, right?
You might check your email, butnot go into that like full work
anxiety mode.
How do you protect your nervoussystem against the onslaught it
experiences around work?
That's gonna look a littledifferent for each person.
If you've done really attendingto all four layers of your
(18:47):
health, your nervous system isgonna be pretty well protected.
It's on a case-by-case basis.
I like to make sure people aregetting some on-ramp and
off-ramp at the end of the day.
You cannot reach for your phoneand check your work email first
thing in the morning.
That's just like giving yournervous system a giant jolt of
adrenaline.
It's so bad for you.
Even if you do five minutes,get up, you know, brush your
(19:11):
teeth, make your coffee, and Ilike to go sit out on my little,
you know, my little apartmentbalcony a few minutes, and then
I'll check my email.
Work isn't gonna know that Itook five minutes for myself,
but it makes a significantdifference in your nervous
system response.
And similarly, at the end ofthe day, you log off and then
(19:32):
give yourself 20, 30, ideally anhour of reading an actual book
or cuddling with your pet orundivided attention with your
partner, something that meetsone of those four layers of
health.
That's the mindset shift.
When you mentally protectyourself and your nervous
system, you're gonna feel a lotbetter.
Claude (19:52):
And I'm sure that there's going to be a positive
result to your work.
Laurel (19:57):
Absolutely.
The quality of work goes upsignificantly, and people are
actually more productive.
They feel like they have morefree time because they're more
efficient.
And it is the case in manyindustries that when you do good
work, you're rewarded by beinggiven more work.
A lot of people I work withstruggle to say no and set
boundaries to say, I've alreadybeen assigned six cases this
(20:20):
month.
I cannot take on anymore.
Whereas previously they wouldhave just been like, okay, yeah.
But saying, here's what I haveon my plate.
What would you like me to getrid of so I can take on this
other thing?
That can go a long way.
Claude (20:32):
Which is true because people don't realize how much
you have on your plate until youshow it.
I'm like, I have this, this,this, and this.
Laurel (20:40):
And putting it on a manager, which of these things
is most important to you that Iaccomplish?
Because I cannot do all ofthem.
Can you help me prioritize ifyou are going to ask me to do
all these things?
Jess (20:52):
You help or work with CEOs or C-suite level.
Knowing boundary setting issomething all need to work on,
even CEOs.
Laurel (21:00):
Yeah.
Jess (21:01):
What are tools that you're training them to help
understand that they've now justoverloaded the team?
Because the next step is theyturn around and they say, Well,
I get to delegate.
I can't do it all.
So now you all do it.
Laurel (21:15):
You know, I don't find that my clients are
over-delegating.
They're under-delegating.
People that are burning out areless likely to delegate.
So something I work with peopleon is I call it the four Ds.
Everything in your work lifeand your personal life falls
into four categories.
Do, date, delegate, delete.
(21:35):
Do is something you need to doright away.
Like pick your sick kid up fromschool.
That needs to be done rightnow.
We cannot schedule this.
We cannot delegate.
Like it has to be you.
Date is like things you canschedule.
We need to have a conversationabout this.
Let's schedule it for nextTuesday at 10 a.m.
It's not extremely urgent.
It's important.
So it's gonna like getsomething on the schedule.
(21:56):
We need to go over the budget,but not urgent.
Delegate is things that need tobe done, but not by you.
And a lot of ambitious peoplestruggle with this because
there's a little bit of ego.
I do it better.
I'm the only one that knows howto do this.
I have a good number of othertherapists in my life that run
similar practices.
They employ other therapistsand they really struggle to
(22:20):
delegate things because likethey are running this small
business.
They we need to check our egosbecause a lot of the time
someone else can do it and do itbetter and quicker, right?
So this delegate category iswhere a lot of people need to
exercise more of their authorityin delegating things.
And then the final category isdelete, which is like things do
(22:41):
not need to be done, aren't apriority or a waste of time.
Social media or things thataren't great for you.
Things that like they're notserving the company or the
business, they're not helpingyou, they're not building a more
meaningful life or nurturingyour relationships.
Claude (22:58):
I know it simplifies category, and now it puts you in
perspective.
Okay, what uh where am Iputting this right now?
Which one?
Laurel (23:06):
The people I work with, they feel like everything is in
that do category.
Like it all needs to be doneand it needs to be done today.
Sometimes that is true.
There is something that needsto be done today.
And if you have some controlover your schedule and you can
book out periods of deep workwhere you can concentrate on
something for a long period oftime, you're gonna get way more
(23:29):
done and think more deeply andbe more strategic about it.
So this urgency that everythingneeds to get done now, it
actually robs you of anystrategy that might set you up
for success, might help you worksmarter, not harder.
Claude (23:43):
That's your each time.
Work smarter, not harder.
Working with those CEOs, do youthink that they actually
implement the layers or the 4Ds?
Do they then also reciprocateto their team?
Because I'm sure that the CEOis burnt out, I'm sure that
everyone's team is burnt out.
Laurel (24:04):
Yeah, well, in in the therapy world, there's this
saying, as above, so below, thatlike if the therapist is
walking their talk, the clientsare more likely to like follow
through because they can sense,like, and I think it's the same
in companies, it's the same infamilies.
You know, when the kids see theparents working on healthy
communication and making surethey are taking care of their
(24:27):
own needs, then the kid feelsmore relaxed.
The adults are okay, I'm okay.
And you know what?
I also am gonna take care ofmyself and I'm gonna be more
empowered in my self-efficacyand my like initiative because I
see we all need to takeresponsibility for ourselves.
Whereas if mom is only takingcare of other people and is
(24:49):
constantly falling apart, thekid's gonna be more anxious
because the adults maybe don'thave it all together here.
Jess (24:55):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a good example ofmodeling.
You had written an articleabout everything you should know
if you're considering medicalleave for burnout.
Sharing with us what that firststep is to take that time off.
Laurel (25:08):
Anyone that's considering medical leave for
burnout, there's gonna be a lotof anxiety, even identity
crisis.
Who am I if I don't go to workevery day?
Who am I if I'm not practicinglaw or whatever field they're
in?
A lot of worry that people willthink less of them if they go
on leave, that it's a sign ofweakness.
(25:28):
Whereas if they had been in amajor car accident or they
needed to get medical care thatwas not for their mental health,
like there wouldn't be as muchanxiety and shame around it.
There might still be someanxiety and shame around it, but
not to the degree.
My experience with the peopleI've worked with who have taken
medical leave for burnout isthat it goes pretty smoothly.
(25:52):
It they get less resistance andless shame and criticism than
they expect.
FMLA, medical leave, it'slegally protected.
You get 12 weeks a year that'scovered in some state.
I'm in California, we're verylucky.
Our short-term state disabilityinsurance covers this.
So you actually get a portionof your pay while you're on
(26:14):
leave.
And many companies also have amedical leave policy where you
do get some pay.
Financial anxiety can be asignificant part of it.
But the first step is to go toyour HR department or look at
your benefits package andevaluate like what is the
feasibility of taking leavehere?
What's the procedure?
What are the first steps?
Um, because it's going to bedifferent if you're at a major
company versus someone in mypractice.
(26:37):
So that's the first step.
Jess (26:38):
Knowing that our community is all about work besties and
thinking about things that theythemselves can better.
From your perspective, whatdoes a strong support system
look like?
Laurel (26:49):
Knowing you are loved and cared for and feeling that
same love and care for them,right?
It's a felt sense of care andcommunity.
There's kind of a systemicequilibrium.
When one person really needs abreak or is in poor health, the
other, the rest of the systemwill support them.
And then when they come back tohealth, they will care for
(27:11):
others.
That there's this, this likehomeostasis that gets maintained
within the relationship or thefamily or the work environment.
Jess (27:22):
Laurel, do you have a work bestie yourself?
Laurel (27:24):
Ooh, I'm lucky.
I have a bunch.
Um, I am part of a mastermindgroup.
We meet every other week and wejust organized ourselves.
We met at a conference threeyears ago, and I had just
started my group practice, mymulti-clinician practice, and I
knew I needed some work bestiesbecause I know many therapists,
(27:45):
but I didn't know that manypeople doing what I was doing.
So I went to this conferenceand I specifically organized a
lunch for people that like hadsimilar business models.
And then we like met on Zoomand we like created this group.
We got very lucky.
Like we intentionally soughtout these relationships.
I have a group of people thatwe have such complementary
(28:07):
skills.
One person, like she's thefinance girl, one girl is the
marketing person.
Like one person is like the HRand culture person, and then I'm
the systems girl.
Like, so we have this reallygreat symbiotic relationship,
the four of us, and we we traveltogether a couple times a year.
We pick a fun city, and then wego do a very intense working
(28:29):
weekend, and then we go havesome fun in that city too.
So, yes, I'm very lucky.
I have three work besties, andI'll give them a shout-out, Amy,
Courtney, and Veronica.
And I would not be where I amtoday, and I would not be as
balanced and kind of healthy inmy approach to the being the
ambitious therapist I am if Ididn't have them.
Jess (28:51):
I love that you guys found each other and found a way to
continue this.
That's that's amazing.
Claude (28:57):
And and I think also what was great is that you
realized you needed that.
So you seeked out.
It's like seeking those peopleand also, like you say, being
vulnerable earlier, right?
Laurel (29:08):
We are so vulnerable with each other.
We talk about what we'restruggling with, and we're very
direct with each other.
Hey, you are not doing this,and your business isn't growing
or your business is sufferingbecause of it.
And we just created thisculture of being very loving but
very direct with each other.
Claude (29:26):
You're holding each other accountable, you're not
just being vulnerable.
Which is really what isfriendship, right?
You don't want to always have ayes, no, no, no.
You want someone to say, okay,you're going crazy right now.
Laurel (29:36):
Yeah, it's the radical candor construct.
The radical candor is like youcare personally and challenge
directly.
And if you're not doing one ofthose things, your communication
is incongruous and and not asimpactful as it could be.
Jess (29:52):
But Laurel, um, how can our listeners connect with you?
Laurel (29:56):
The best way is our website, Laureltherapy.net.
We do have Instagram, Facebook,LinkedIn.
Um, if people are looking tostart therapy, please go through
the website.
You can email us info atlauraltherapy.net.
That comes right to me, and I'mhappy to be in touch.
Jess (30:13):
I love that.
We have one last question foryou.
Yeah.
What's that one piece of adviceyou'd give your younger self
knowing what you know now?
Laurel (30:23):
I was very lucky in that I received the advice that I
would give.
Um, I was 17, and this teachersaid it's gonna be a lot easier
to be yourself at 27 than it isto be yourself at 17.
And I think that that continuesbecause it was you it was so
much easier to be myself at 37than it was to be 27.
(30:44):
So I'm hoping the trend justkeeps going and looking good so
far.
Jess (30:49):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much for this.
This has really been healingfor us.
Oh yes for our work bestiecommunity.
We so appreciate you sharingthose transformational tools,
and I hope our work bestiecommunity takes hold of them.
Claude (31:03):
Work besties.
If this resonated, please shareit with someone who's burning
out or healing from trauma.
Let's normalize recovery aspart of work culture and hit the
subscribe and share with yourwork besties.
Thank you.
See you next week.
Jess (31:20):
Remember, whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending that perfectly timedmeme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (31:33):
So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the
chaos, and of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive, and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties!
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