September 8, 2025 • 39 mins
Dancer, speaker, and relationship coach Linda Sutton reveals how Argentine tango maps to work: leadership & followership as functions, not hierarchy; why consent and distance create safety; and how followers amplify a leader’s intent. From the “Invite → Embrace → Boundaries” framework to a simple reset line—“I’m just here to follow”—this convo turns dance into a practical playbook for teams and Work Besties.
Chapters
- 00:00 Tango, Body Language & Relationships
- 08:21 Leadership & Followership in Tango
- 16:53 Power Dynamics: Leading vs Following
- 25:07 Build Trust Through Movement
- 30:10 Body Language & Emotional Cues
- 36:03 Follower Amplifies the Leader (Tiny Lead, Big Expression)
- 39:39 Workplace Leadership & Teams: Applying Tango Principles
Key takeaways
- Roles = functions, not power. There’s no leader without a follower—partnership is an agreement.
- Invite → Embrace → Boundaries. Define closeness and consent explicitly (at work, too).
- Body > words. Most signals are nonverbal—read posture, distance, and tone for alignment.
- Safety is visible. Consent & distance are real-time cues leaders must protect.
- Amplification effect. A tiny lead becomes a big expression—the follower reflects and magnifies intent.
- Lead by listening. Build micro-feedback into every “step” so teams adjust before things break.
- Reset misalignment. Use the calm prompt: “I’m just here to follow.”
Try it this week
- Set your team’s embrace: agree on boundaries (response times, meeting norms, off-limits hours).
- Practice “no solutions—just space.” Ask “Do you want advice or a listening ear?”
- Run a micro-feedback loop: after each meeting, one sentence—“What worked / what to tweak next time?”
Guest: Linda Sutton — dancer, speaker, creator, relationship coach
Book: It Takes Two to Tango (the 22-step framework mentioned in the episode)
Website (as mentioned): lindadesutton.com • lindadesutton.com/ebook
Hosts: Jess & Claude — Work Besties Who Podcast
If you enjoyed this, follow, rate ★★★★★, and share with your Work Bestie!
Tags: leadership, followership, tango, body language, psychological safety, teams, workplace communication, boundaries, trust, micro-feedback
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Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:00):
You can tell relationships dynamics within three dances.
Linda Sutton (00:05):
Yes, the things that are required to build a
successful dance and haveharmony, synergy, closeness,
trust and true partnership,because tango is the ultimate
partnership dance.
It is truly about leading andfollowing.
It's the same thing that youhave to do to have a successful
relationship.
Claude (00:24):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:32):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry Work besties.
Most people communicate withwords, but what happens when
your body becomes the message?
This week, we're joined withLinda Sutton dancer, speaker,
creator and relationship coach,who teaches how tango can lead
(00:56):
all of your relationships.
So stick around to the end,where Linda will share with us a
powerful truth of everysuccessful partnership needs on
and off the dance floor.
Claude (01:06):
Hi Linda, Thank you for joining us.
Linda Sutton (01:09):
Thank you, Claude and Jess.
It is a pleasure.
I am so looking forward toengaging with you guys,
especially with our offlineconversation.
This is about to be a fun ride.
Claude (01:18):
Yes, totally so.
First, like you saying ouroffline conversation, I love
tango, especially Argentinetango.
It's such a sexy dance.
How did you start incorporatingtango with relationship?
Linda Sutton (01:33):
Excellent.
Well, tango.
Like you, I just fell in lovewith it and then it took over my
life.
So prior to doing this workthat I'm doing now, I was in
corporate and I left mycorporate work, which I still do
some of, to teach dancefull-time.
Teach and perform dancefull-time, and actually my area
of expertise in the beginning ofmy dance career was the African
(01:54):
roots of dance throughout theworld.
So I actually taught in acouple of universities exploring
the African roots of dance,traditions and cultures all
around the world, and startedexploring the African roots of
tango as a part of that body ofwork.
What I found when I was doingthe tango is it required
everything of me.
(02:14):
There was no faking the funkwith tango.
You have to be all in, you haveto all be on the floor with
your partner in order for it towork, and so that was the
beginning of kind of this deepdive.
Once I started working withcouples and teaching them, two
things emerged.
Number one I could see withinthree songs, which is a tanda.
(02:35):
Within that three songs, I kneweverything that was going on in
their relationships, and so Iwas able to use that information
to coach them in theirrelationship so they could have
more harmony in the dancebecause whatever was going on in
their relationship would showup on the floor.
The other piece of it wasrealizing people that might not
(02:59):
want to do that coaching work ormentoring work verbally.
They were more open to doing itthrough a fun activity that
they didn't feel as intimidatedby.
So I started getting all ofthese referrals and then that
was the birth of Tutu Tango.
Claude (03:14):
In Tango usually the man actually leads.
Linda Sutton (03:18):
Yes.
Claude (03:19):
And the woman follows.
So how do you see when there'sa relationship, when a woman
doesn't want to be led, theywant to be part of the
discussion.
Linda Sutton (03:29):
That was me in the beginning, so I was like no man
gonna tell me what to do.
I'm a leader already.
What you doing?
here, so I know that concern andthat issue all too well and we
address it in my work and wereally understand leadership and
followership as positions inthe relationship that have
functions.
But one of the primary things Ilead with is that there is no
(03:52):
leader without a follower In thedance of tango.
It requires agreement to be inpartnership with one another and
in that partnership there areroles that we take on that
fulfill certain functions thatallow us to thrive, and so a
woman can still be a leader andshe just moves in the dance in a
(04:13):
different functioning role thatunlocks a different part of
herself, those two positions.
But it does not go withoutsaying that if there is no
agreement with the follower tobe in that role and position,
then there is no leader andthere's a respect for both roles
and both functions.
In the dance you just start inthat role because of the
(04:34):
positions.
So the leader is the personwho's initiating and they are
the person that's facing, if youwill, the flow of traffic.
So it's really a position thing.
But in our framework theleader's goal and role is to
lead and then follow their lead.
So they're taking on bothfunctions even though their
position is the leadershipposition.
(04:54):
They have to lead and then theyhave to follow behind their
leader.
They lead and then the energyis passed to the follower to
execute and then providefeedback.
So there's kind of thiscircular energetic flow in the
dynamics of the dance.
Exactly, it's a dynamic flow ofenergy that passes from one
person to the next and back tothe other person throughout the
(05:16):
dance.
So, once again, leadingfollower are positions in the
dance and the function is adynamic flow of leadership and
followership in the dance.
Jess (05:24):
With Argentinean tango.
The male role is supposedly theleader, but in many parts of
the dance it's actually thewoman leading.
To your point there's that giveand take and a lot of it's
built off that trust of eachother.
Linda, I admitted this to youbefore we started recording that
I actually had takenArgentinian tango and I was not
very good because I was laughingthe whole time.
(05:47):
What would you give advice forpeople that couldn't get on the
zone?
Linda Sutton (05:52):
The beautiful thing is that there's not just
one way to do tango.
Tango, even though there arethe principles, the rules that
govern the roles and then therules that govern the road,
which is how you navigate, it isreally about the couple.
It's not just one style.
That's always serious andstaunch and what you see on
stage and in movies.
There is a playful side, thereis one that flows, there's one
(06:14):
that's very romantic, there's aside of it that's very sensual,
there's a side of it that's veryrhythmic, and all of these
different styles are withintango.
So it's totally appropriatethat when you came into the
dance, you were using laughterto relax into it, to connect in
with your partner, to perhapsrelease your nervousness and to
create bond, and that is totallyappropriate.
(06:37):
It's not just one style thatwhere you have to be serious and
stern.
Jess (06:41):
That might be a misperception, because that's
what I was thinking.
I'm not taking it seriousenough because every time I've
seen it professionally danced,it is more of either the very
sensual or very stern.
Linda Sutton (06:52):
And it's good that you mentioned that, because
that brings up a very importantpoint for people who are new to
the dance.
There is social tango and thereis stage tango, and they are
very different styles.
Stage tango is for performance.
The movements are very big soeveryone can see it.
It's to entertain you, to wowyou.
(07:12):
However, social tango is reallyabout two people connecting,
getting to know one another,bond and build trust.
The movements are usually verysmall.
It's not really about showingoff for the crowd and big
movements.
It's about creating trust andsafety between the two of you.
As you deepen that trust andsafety, other people will be in
(07:33):
awe of it because when they seeyou dance on the floor but
that's not your intention yourintention is not to show off for
the crowd.
It's to connect with yourpartner in a way that's
awe-inspiring when you coachcouples.
Claude (07:43):
It's more the social tango that you're doing, right.
Linda Sutton (07:47):
Absolutely Well.
So the social thing has tooccur before even the stage
tango, because stage tango isvery complex and it requires a
lot of trust not to get hurt,but absolutely with couples we
start with social tango andthose principles.
Jess (08:01):
And you mentioned in your kickoff, you can tell
relationships dynamics withinthree dances.
Linda Sutton (08:09):
Yes, how did that happen?
The things that are required tobuild a successful dance and
have harmony, synergy, closeness, trust and true partnership,
because tango is the ultimatepartnership dance.
It is truly about partnership,leading and following.
They begin to dissolve and itall is about you working in
(08:30):
concert with your partner tocreate the dance, because you go
through the same exact steps ofconnection, trust, concern,
fear, getting in step on thedance.
It's the same thing that youhave to do to have a successful
relationship and if you'rehaving a power struggle with
your partner off the dance floor, it is absolutely going to show
(08:53):
up on the dance floor.
If you have trust issues, ifthere is not an equal level of
respect or value, or you getalong really, really well and
you finish each other'ssentences, oh, it's like don't
you tell me what to do, alongreally, really well and you
finish each other's sentences.
Oh, it's like don't you tell mewhat to do and then you'll see
it on the dance floor in theform of resistance and pushing
back and the desire to be onone's own access.
(09:13):
So there's all this bodylanguage that tells more about
your relationship than yourwords could ever say.
Most people are not aware that93% of communication is actually
nonverbal.
Only 7% of it is the words.
It's tonality, it's bodylanguage, it's energy is the 93%
, and so that's how we know.
Like I said, I know all y'allbusiness and they're surprised.
(09:37):
They're like I, you know.
I'm like okay, this is.
I give them a profile.
I'm like okay, so this is whatyou guys are going through at
home.
And they're like how do you?
Claude (09:48):
So you see that there's a misbalance between the couple.
How do you change that dynamic?
Linda Sutton (09:54):
Absolutely.
I take them through a series ofmovement exercises, through a
class or a camp or a privatelesson, and literally we work
through building their dance,and then they have these aha
moments in their relationshipbecause they can feel it in
their body.
So they realize that trust isnot some sort of abstract idea,
(10:15):
it is actually a trust or lackof trust actually shows up in
how their partner's bodyresponds to them.
Safety shows up in their bodyeven misunderstanding.
For example, if a follower doesnot understand the leader's
lead, he can actually feel thatconfusion in her body, and so
then it becomes oh my goodness,okay, I can hear when I'm not
(10:38):
clear, I can hear when shedoesn't quite understand.
Even though her eyes are closed, even though I can't see her
face, I can feel that tension orthat concern or hesitation in
her body.
That's how we walk through itin the sessions or class.
Jess (10:51):
I heard you mention energy alignment.
It sounds similar to whatyou're talking about.
What does that look like in ahealthy relationship?
And then what does that looklike where you can tell there's
some strife or opportunities inthat relationship?
Linda Sutton (11:02):
One of the things that I like to do because I know
as a lady myself and as I workwith ladies who are leaders,
always reconciling thatfollowership position in the
relationship.
It's a partnership and it'sjust a function of positions in
the dance.
What we find in this work andwhat I do in terms of a healthy
(11:24):
dynamic is, number oneunderstanding.
It's a partnership.
That's what the work is.
And number two, they're bothequal and interdependent.
So that's why I always leadwith.
There is no leader without afollower.
So your role as a leader iscompletely dependent upon a
vision that's shared andtherefore agreement.
(11:45):
If I don't agree to follow youand work together
collaboratively with you, thenyou are not a leader.
And work togethercollaboratively with you, then
you are not a leader.
And then, at any point in timewhere I'm not in agreement and
you see that not only inrelationships that are romantic,
but also friendships and inwork if we are no longer in
alignment with the vision thatthe leader is holding and the
(12:05):
agreements that we have in place, then you lose followers.
We each have roles and we'recontributing to this whole in a
partnership to create somethingbeautiful.
Claude (12:15):
I love this analogy A follow-on leader is not a
hierarchy, because usually, yes,that's what people assume right
away and I love that you'resaying no, it's not.
It's actually side by side.
Linda Sutton (12:27):
It actually starts with the follower.
And you see that in the danceand that's what I love about it,
because I started out this andit took me about a year and a
half because I'm strong If youguys can't already tell, I am a
strong sister Just thatresistance to being controlled
and told what to do was moremental.
(12:48):
But then I realized that thedance actually starts with the
follower.
But then I realized that thedance actually starts with the
follower.
The leader is inspired by thefollower in the dance to go
through all of that to learnwhat is needed in order to lead.
Most leaders don't wake up oneday and it's like oh yes, I want
to dance tango.
Many of them they see followersor some people that they want
(13:12):
to collaborate with and thenthey say I'm going to gather the
skills that are necessary inorder to collaborate with this
person and you don't become aleader typically until you have
been a follower.
Jess (13:24):
You had shared with us the two to tango structure
framework.
Help us understand how youcreated it and how it helps to
navigate with conflict ormisalignment.
Linda Sutton (13:33):
Oh great.
So when we talk about alignment, the image give people as a
starting point is yin and yang,and so yin and yang represents
the masculine and feminineforces male, woman just kind of
how things occur in the cosmos.
And this apparently isimportant to you guys, because I
see you all laughing like.
Jess (13:52):
Well, we have many clips about how, in a majority of our
episodes, one of us says yin andyang.
Because I do believe it.
I always comment it was her andthen, when I was doing the
editing, back to make a funnyclip about it it wound up being
more me saying it, becausethat's the energy between the
two of you.
Linda Sutton (14:11):
That's probably what you're seeing Exactly,
because, when you like, you twoare a perfect example of balance
and synergy and workingtogether and harmony and
playfulness and a shared visionand partnership.
And so it makes sense that yinand yang would be a natural way
that you would describe orperceive your interaction
Equally in the dance.
(14:32):
When you talk about healthyenergetic alignment, this is
what I like to say with couples,you know, because there is a
masculine and feminine, at leastin the couples that I work with
, there's a man and woman, sothere's a natural masculine and
feminine dynamic.
But what I also like to tellpeople is that most people focus
on the masculine and thefeminine, but they forget the
little circles that are in thatparticular image, that is, of
(14:56):
the other.
So within yang there is yin andwithin yin there is yang.
And so when we were talkingabout that kind of flow of
energy and dynamic that you seein the dance, where the lead
leads and then follows his leadand then, once he passes the
energy, the follower executes.
So there's an initiation whichis activity, there's execution,
(15:19):
which is activity, and so yousee that kind of flow.
That is the baseline that helpsme to walk people through the
framework.
And then there's a way that youbuild your dance.
You invite your partner, youapproach your partner, you get
into the embrace, you set theboundaries and you express what
your level of trust is.
You make tests, and so you gothrough those stages in every
(15:41):
single dance in order to have asuccessful dance.
Well, if you go through thosesame exact steps in your
interaction with your partner,you will get repeatable results.
It's mind-blowing when you seeit in action.
Jess (15:57):
And you mentioned a lot of this has to do with body
language versus verbal.
Knowing that a lot of thelisteners are focused on
continuing to develop therelationship with work besties,
are there elements of thisframework that they could
incorporate into understandingtheir bestie by just reading
body language?
Linda Sutton (16:15):
which is a way of listening.
So I'm going to start with theembrace, because in some of your
previous work I've heard peopletalk about.
(16:35):
Well, people have differentperceptions of their work
relationship.
Some of them think it's justprofessional and so the boundary
is that we're justprofessionals and never the
twain shall meet in terms ofother areas of my life.
For some we're besties, butit's only in a professional
setting, so we don't reallyintroduce our personal lives or
other parts of ourselves to it.
(16:55):
And then the other is we fullon besties on at work.
At happy hour you come into thebarbecue at my house, my
children's birthday parties, mymama come and make apple pie,
you come over and get a slice.
So you have those kind of waysof perceiving no-transcript.
(17:39):
That's okay, but you establishthat upfront and then you move
through your connection, whichis the embrace.
That way, in reverse, you havechest to chest contact, which is
apilado, which means you're allin every area of your life,
you're not on your own accessand you bring together your
professional lives, yourpersonal lives, even sometimes
(18:00):
your spiritual life together toreally connect with each other,
both in the workplace and out ofthe workplace.
Once you've established thatconnection and then you interact
with each other from there andthen everything in between.
So once you meet someone thatyou gel with, just be clear in
your mind and communicateclearly to them where you feel
comfortable in terms of thelevel of closeness.
(18:21):
And then, once you'veestablished that, then move in
that.
And I say that because somepeople, like the two of you,
it's like all in, like BFF,right, and if she called me
after work, I'm pulling off myearrings and I'm driving up and
I'm saying where you at, I'mpulling up, so this people.
But then some people may notfeel comfortable with that, but
they really want to have areally, really close
(18:42):
relationship within theprofessional boundaries and
that's okay and that they canreally share and connect.
But then when they go home,like you say, working with teams
that are remote, they may never, ever get to see each other
physically, because I'm in onecountry and my teammates in
another country, so we may neverget to engage that close, but
we still may have a closenessthat we can bring to our work.
(19:05):
So that's the first concept.
The second concept is theinvitation, which is once again
using verbal language, andusually that's how work besties
meet each other, like there'ssome, there's a chemistry, there
is a pull.
You feel like we going to getalong.
I can see already from acrossthe room.
And then you're in that meetingand someone says something and
(19:27):
you say something and you lookat each other like, yeah, I see
you at the water cooler I cansee.
So you have that eye contact.
You see someone in their bodylanguage, perhaps in several
meetings or in interactions, theway that their body language
invites you in and lets you know, hey, I feel safe and
comfortable with you, you canget closer.
(19:47):
Or even just the way they leanin when they talk to you.
There's these nonverbal cuesthat you can use to get closer.
We definitely use it in tangoand we would use it here.
And then I would say the lastthing, which is how the energy
moves in between, is that trustbuilds over time.
With tango, even though we maystart out in the open embrace,
(20:12):
as time moves on I may feel moreand more comfortable as I build
trust to get closer and closerto you.
In tango we do that and I cansee that happening in the work
environment as well.
It would be appropriate.
You may start out.
I'm feeling a little bit moreguarded, perhaps because of the
past or I'm not sure.
But then as we engage over time, we can build that level of
closeness and deepen that trust.
Claude (20:33):
I was thinking what's actually the opposite, when you
have one person that definitelywants to be your workplace from
the beginning, so I'm trying tosteal you from me, and then the
other person is not there.
Is it more that verbal cue orthe physical cue?
Linda Sutton (20:52):
Absolutely, and we see that in tango, for example.
There might be a leader or afollower who is like yes, I
would like to get closer to you,and then there's another
partner which is not quite there.
It could be an overall thing orit could be a just in the
moment thing, like today I'm nothaving a good day and we might
normally dance a certain way,but today I'm kind of in a
(21:15):
different space.
Usually the follower sets thedistance only because they're in
the most vulnerable position,meaning they're the ones who's
walking backwards.
So usually they set that.
But the leader also islistening and watching.
Okay, partner is standing 12inches away from me, or 18
inches away from me.
That's a clear cue that theywant open embrace, that they
(21:39):
need some space, that they needsome distance, and so I'm going
to engage with them in that wayand not going to try to pull
them in when they're there.
I'm going to engage with themfrom this place.
And so leaders do that.
They listen to the distance andthe body language of their
follower or their partner, andthen they make adjustments and
it's okay.
And the whole thing is tocreate a safe space for them to
(22:01):
feel comfortable with thedistance that they've
established, and so it's abeautiful, beautiful thing in
terms of leadership, and this iswhere leading is not really a
hierarchy, it's a role.
The leader is saying my partnerhas greater distance, so my
role is just to create a safespace for them to establish
(22:22):
their boundaries and respect itand honor them and interact with
them in the space that they'vecreated, that I'm going to
create for us.
Jess (22:30):
That they've created and that I'm going to create for us.
This relates so beautifully towork besties, Cause that's
pretty much the ethos of therelationship is to create that
safe space for each other.
Obviously, being in Yangbounces back and forth.
I'm just thinking.
Over the last couple of weeksthere's been a couple of times
where you've come up to me inthe office and been like how are
you doing?
What's going on?
Ready to like talk aboutsomething.
Claude (22:58):
And I just give you the look and you're like, okay, okay
, I'm not going to settle awaybecause I can't.
Jess (23:00):
And then that's the thing is that I didn't have to say
anything.
I just gave you the look andyou knew oh yeah, and I did
trust that.
Claude (23:08):
Yeah, I didn't take it personally.
I'm like okay she'll come.
Her time she'll come and I knowshe'll come back later and say,
okay, I can talk now.
I can be vice versa.
Jess (23:19):
So yeah, that's totally that's a great example of that
Real time that's been happeninga lot.
Linda Sutton (23:25):
Exactly, and the beautiful thing is that you
didn't take offense to it, youdidn't feel as a rejection, and
that's the beautiful dynamicyour own personal tango.
She doesn't want it to close.
Embrace the day or in thismoment.
I respect that.
I create the space for it.
And the wonderful thing is whenyou honor and you create the
space for your partner to be inthat fluidity in terms of level
(23:50):
of trust, level of closeness,based on where they are, then it
creates the space for them tomove through it.
So let's say, today I'm needingsome space.
When you're like, okay, I'mgoing to hold the space for you,
even if you're 20 feet away.
And then, once you haveprocessed, when you've allowed
yourself to calm down, then yougo looking for your bestie.
You'll be like, hey, girl,where?
Claude (24:10):
you at.
Where does the guy seat you allday?
Linda Sutton (24:18):
But looking for your bestie.
Jess (24:19):
You were like hey, girl, where you at?
Claude (24:20):
where does the guy beat you all day.
But it's also because we knoweach other, we know what is
happening in each other lives.
Yeah, so that's why I wasprofessionally and personally,
yeah, you know exactly.
So that is why you know thatyou're not taking it personally,
because you know fundamentallywhat they are going through.
And that was and I like thatpoint also one day when we had,
I had a question, I'm like howare you?
And told me something.
And then, and I misread it andI gave solutions.
Jess (24:46):
And you answered I don't need solutions.
Claude (24:49):
I need to vent.
Linda Sutton (24:51):
And the beautiful thing about body language and
energetic alignment is it worksextremely well when you know
each other, but it still workseven if you don't.
And if you move with anawareness of your partner or the
person that you're engagingwith and you're looking at that
and knowing that most of thecommunication is going to come
(25:13):
from this before they open theirmouths, then the minute they
started to speak, they wouldjust be watching your cues and
they would say, oh, okay, herface is disengaged, okay, her
body pulled back.
Okay, she went from smiling tonot smiling.
She went from leaning forwardas she was to leaning back.
I was like I'm not listening toClaude and I'm like, know, she
(25:33):
went from leaning forward as shewas to leaning back.
Jess (25:34):
I was like I'm like, oh, she's not listening.
No, yes, no, I was thinking ofsomething else.
Linda Sutton (25:41):
It's also incredible.
Claude (25:43):
I think you need an emotional maturity to understand
those cues Because, for example, I know people that I give this
physical like get away from me.
They don't understand, so theykeep on going.
Jess (25:58):
They do.
They're playing tango with you.
They see it as a challenge.
Linda Sutton (26:02):
Yeah, it's like you threw down the rose here I
go and I'm like nope, nope, I'mnot looking at each other.
Jess (26:11):
This is when you know people really well.
I immediately know what she'stalking about.
Linda Sutton (26:15):
The movies Tango is like about the chase and the
conquering and all that.
It is actually not.
That in practice Really isabout the invitation and the
acceptance of the invitation andthere is a persistence, but not
from a conquering standpoint,at least from a social
environment.
If there is a persistence, butnot from a concrete standpoint,
at least from a socialenvironment.
If there is resistance, theleader usually because there's
(26:38):
principles that govern tango thefollower is usually observing
the leaders in a variety ofenvironments before they accept
the dance.
When the follower does notaccept their dance or their
invitation, then they understandthat there's an energy
misalignment.
So the leader doesn't take thatas a I've got to conquer.
(27:01):
As much as there's notinvitation, there's not enough
information or there is a vibemisalignment.
It doesn't mean that they'llnever try again, because usually
in social settings if peopleare not already coupled up you
might be having an off day, Imight check in later.
But if people are not alreadycoupled up, you might be having
an off day, I might check inlater.
But if she sends a very clearno, then they're like okay,
there's a vibe check, we're justnot on the same page.
(27:23):
Just like in work, just like inrelationship.
It's just not a fit, and youcan still be in the same space
and not be partners.
Claude (27:31):
Sometimes the follower is not ready yet, right, because
so the leader might try a bitlater, in a different way, to
really be able to be, to lookdifferently at the other person
and work with them to make themsecure and trusty.
Linda Sutton (27:50):
Absolutely.
That's the same way in terms ofwork as you're getting to know
your coworkers.
You're a new person on the team.
You're still trying to figureout who you vibe with, who you
can trust, because you can'ttrust everybody at work,
everybody not trustworthy.
As you go through that, you mayhave the welcoming team like hi
, welcome.
But that new person is like I'mnot sure yet, and so you don't
(28:11):
stop making a space for them tofeel welcome just because in
that first couple of daysthey're still trying to feel it
out.
You create the space for themand then you allow them to
observe and make their decisionsand you honor that.
Jess (28:26):
Have you ever had a bad partner on the dance floor and
how did you overcome that?
Who would share?
Yes, not what I thought youwere going to respond to.
Linda Sutton (28:39):
You don't get to dance this long and not have bad
partners.
It's less so nowadays because Itake the time to observe my
partners before I accept theirinvitation.
At this point I can see some ofthe things that may not align
with me.
I definitely listen to my gutand listen to the energy,
because it is an energy.
(29:00):
If something in my energy saysmaybe not, then I trust that the
body exchange that's going on.
But early in my career I feltlike you couldn't say no, you
want to be nice and you want toaccept everybody, and the
gentleman was basically tryingto get me to do something and it
wasn't working.
What I was receiving from themwas not what they were leading,
(29:22):
and so that's usually where itoccurs.
It's not usually that they're abad leader.
It's that they're not realizingthat the signal that they're
sending is not what's comingacross and they don't know, they
don't, are not yet aware thatit's your leadership.
Not necessarily she's not doingit right, she's just there to
follow and that there's somefeedback.
(29:42):
The way that I handled, learnedto handle it, was that I say
I'm just here to follow and thatworks.
Jess (29:50):
It does helps them recognize that they're
misaligned in what they'releading.
Linda Sutton (29:56):
That communicates the cause and effect, because
leading and following is a causeand effect.
So I'm the leader, so whateverI do is what's impacting you.
If what's coming out is notwhat I want to see, then it's
for me, as a leader, to make theadjustment.
It's not, it doesn't matterwhether or not they're getting
it right.
They know what to do or don'tknow what to do.
(30:17):
It's for them to understand, atleast in the dance, that,
because we're in a space wherethere's safety issues, if
something is not going as youneed it to go, then I put the
onus back.
And because the leadership roleis to initiate and their mind
is to execute, so I just givethem a gentle reminder that I'm
just here to follow, and thenthey're like it's a very subtle
(30:39):
way, but because they understandwhen I say I'm just here to
follow, they're like so she'sputting it back on me.
I'm the one who's leading thisand what I'm seeing is a
function of what I'm doing.
And so that's how I resolve itnow, and I also teach my
followers to do that gracefully.
We're so used to verbalcommunication we don't think
that that's sufficient, but whatI use is my body language to
(31:02):
just be in a non-combativeposition.
I just stand and I wait.
And then they're like trying toget it to do and I'm like I'm
not understanding.
I just wait and then if they dosomething and it's not working
out, I stay.
And that's actually I become agreat follower.
I would stand and I wouldn'tmove.
Whatever they led, I would goto that position and then I
(31:24):
would stay there.
I wouldn't try to correct it, Iwouldn't try to make it right,
I wouldn't try to tell them itwas right or wrong.
I would just give them thespace to see it.
And then they realize right orwrong, I would just give them
the space to see it.
Claude (31:37):
And then they realize, oh, she is a reflection of my
lead, and then they would makethe adjustment.
It doesn't take much more.
That is so interesting.
It goes back to the hierarchybetween, you know, follower and
leader.
You actually, a follower, hasso much power as well well,
that's why it's not a hierarchy.
Jess (31:57):
You're very equal the whole time.
Claude (31:59):
How are you?
Jess (31:59):
helping each other.
Claude (32:00):
And that is so interesting to say.
At the beginning I was sayingto the question oh, usually it's
the man that is leading, butthere's a power in both
situations and the follower canactually impact the leader and
make him change.
And that is what is sofascinating.
Linda Sutton (32:19):
That is actually why I dance tango professionally
Once I had that breakthrough,because I used to perceive the
follower as a position ofweakness because of that, that
was where my resistance was.
As opposed to, it is truly aposition of power and even more
energy.
(32:39):
It actually unlocks somethingwithin you as a follower.
Let me just back up with onething the leader initiates, the
(33:02):
follower executes.
So the leader sends the energyand the follower is the physical
expression of the energy thatthe gentleman has sent out.
Everything that she is is justtaking energy and showing it to
the world.
She actually amplifies it.
So the gentleman understandsfor every centimeter of lead
(33:25):
you're going to see six inchesof movement in the woman.
That number one is justextraordinary to realize.
It's like wait a second.
You literally are anexponential expression of all
the power that you receive.
So anything that anyone givesyou, you have the ability in
life and work to expand it andexpress it in a very large,
(33:51):
powerful, creative way.
And then the second thing isonce I realized, then it allowed
me, because I am such a strongleader in other areas, to really
tap into how powerful I couldbe as a follower and to be that
pure expression and be that purefeedback.
So one of the reasons why I'vedone so well in Excel
professionally is because I havea reputation for being a pure
(34:15):
follower, and excelprofessionally is because I have
a reputation for being a purefollower.
So all the men that dance withme know what they are giving.
I am going to be an exact quote, unquote reflection of that.
So then they really know thatthe onus is on them.
They really can't blame theirfollowers on what's going on.
They have to take fullresponsibility and ownership for
(34:38):
everything they initiate.
And I just am giving themfeedback, pure without any.
You got it wrong, you got itright.
And it's a really powerfulthing when I'm working with
leaders for them to realize that, because then they have a
completely different interactionwith their followers, with
their employees, with theirchildren, with their wives.
(34:59):
Because when they understand,everything they initiate is
showing up in the world back tome in an amplified fashion.
And if I want to see somethingdifferent in the world, then I
have got to change what I amdoing, how I am leading, how I'm
approaching another person,because they're just going to
give back to me what I give andit's going to be bigger.
Claude (35:21):
It's incredible how and until we had this podcast and we
started to talk, I neverthought of the relationship in
dancing can be applied toleadership also at work.
It's great to have this analogyand it's so much easier then to
apply as a leader at work, toapply that dense thoughts.
Linda Sutton (35:43):
Absolutely.
We're talking about work, andso leadership typically is, in
the workplace, hierarchical froman organization standpoint.
However, even though theorganizational chart may be
hierarchical, the way that thework is done is in teams the
more successful or the mostsuccessful organizations.
(36:03):
The leader yields to their team.
They are having the vision,they're leading the vision but,
like in the dance, they'reconstantly getting feedback from
their followers and their teammembers on how things are going,
how things should go.
You know they usually giveverbal feedback or they give
nonverbal feedback in terms oftheir satisfaction, because you
can tell when a team is reallyon board with their leader and
(36:27):
when a team is not on board.
Their body language, how theyperform, is a direct reflection
of their relationship to theirleader or their team members.
I come in, I just give it thebare minimum.
I don't really engage andparticipate in the meetings.
That's a sign to leadershipthat you want to engage that
person and it's feedback for youto make adjustments.
Claude (36:48):
And as a follower or leader, was giving you something
and you say that you expandedsix times?
Was giving you something andyou say that you expanded six
times the same thing.
If you're a good leader, youwant your team to shine, to
receive whatever you can giveand then they can go make it
this beautiful project.
Linda Sutton (37:05):
And that's what you see in the dance.
When you see a couple dance,who are you watching?
The woman actually, exactly,most people are looking at the
woman because the woman is thefollower.
She's executing all the moves.
The gentleman is leading themoves, but he's not executing
the steps.
You're watching the followerbecause the follower is the most
expressive part of the dance.
(37:27):
Gentleman does moves, but hecan't lead and be doing more
than she's doing, because he hasto provide the stability and
the support.
So you're exactly right.
The best leaders yield to theirfollowers and make them look
fabulous and, more importantly,they spend as much time
listening to their followers asthey do leading.
The best leaders in tango areextraordinary listeners.
(37:50):
They're listening to everythingthat's going on with their
follower in her body and makingadjustments every single step.
We get so caught up in thebigness of the dance.
The reason that our frameworkworks is because this feedback
conversation is happening withevery single step.
You can't get to the next stepuntil you execute this one fully
(38:11):
, and that's why, within threeto five steps, if it's not
working, the dance falls apart.
It doesn't take 10 minutes ofdancing for the dance to fall
apart.
It falls apart within three tofive steps.
Jess (38:25):
Linda, if our listeners want more of this connection or
harmony, or feel like they'remissing this passion in their
lives, where should they start?
Linda Sutton (38:33):
I just recently released a book called it Takes
Two to Tango using the secretsof the dance to create a
passionate partnership.
There's 22 intricate steps thatyou use to build a dance and I
draw the parallels on how youcan build that in the
relationship.
I also have some materials onmy website, lindadesuttoncom.
Forward slash ebook For peoplethat are just afraid of dancing
(38:55):
itself.
They can start there to getover their fear interpretation
of dancing before they start thenext phase of dancing with
another.
Claude (39:01):
Thank you so much, linda .
Really it was a veryenlightening episode.
We truly love it and we can seeand apply that dance metaphor
to our relationships.
Metaphor to our relationships.
Bestie, if you love thisepisode as much as we did, don't
forget to follow, subscribe andalso send it to your work,
(39:24):
bestie.
Linda Sutton (39:26):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me, ciao.
Jess (39:30):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending other from endlessmeetings, or just sending that
perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (39:43):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
You can tell relationships dynamics within three dances.
Linda Sutton (00:05):
Yes, the things that are required to build a
successful dance and haveharmony, synergy, closeness,
trust and true partnership,because tango is the ultimate
partnership dance.
It is truly about leading andfollowing.
It's the same thing that youhave to do to have a successful
relationship.
Claude (00:24):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:32):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry Work besties.
Most people communicate withwords, but what happens when
your body becomes the message?
This week, we're joined withLinda Sutton dancer, speaker,
creator and relationship coach,who teaches how tango can lead
(00:56):
all of your relationships.
So stick around to the end,where Linda will share with us a
powerful truth of everysuccessful partnership needs on
and off the dance floor.
Claude (01:06):
Hi Linda, Thank you for joining us.
Linda Sutton (01:09):
Thank you, Claude and Jess.
It is a pleasure.
I am so looking forward toengaging with you guys,
especially with our offlineconversation.
This is about to be a fun ride.
Claude (01:18):
Yes, totally so.
First, like you saying ouroffline conversation, I love
tango, especially Argentinetango.
It's such a sexy dance.
How did you start incorporatingtango with relationship?
Linda Sutton (01:33):
Excellent.
Well, tango.
Like you, I just fell in lovewith it and then it took over my
life.
So prior to doing this workthat I'm doing now, I was in
corporate and I left mycorporate work, which I still do
some of, to teach dancefull-time.
Teach and perform dancefull-time, and actually my area
of expertise in the beginning ofmy dance career was the African
(01:54):
roots of dance throughout theworld.
So I actually taught in acouple of universities exploring
the African roots of dance,traditions and cultures all
around the world, and startedexploring the African roots of
tango as a part of that body ofwork.
What I found when I was doingthe tango is it required
everything of me.
(02:14):
There was no faking the funkwith tango.
You have to be all in, you haveto all be on the floor with
your partner in order for it towork, and so that was the
beginning of kind of this deepdive.
Once I started working withcouples and teaching them, two
things emerged.
Number one I could see withinthree songs, which is a tanda.
(02:35):
Within that three songs, I kneweverything that was going on in
their relationships, and so Iwas able to use that information
to coach them in theirrelationship so they could have
more harmony in the dancebecause whatever was going on in
their relationship would showup on the floor.
The other piece of it wasrealizing people that might not
(02:59):
want to do that coaching work ormentoring work verbally.
They were more open to doing itthrough a fun activity that
they didn't feel as intimidatedby.
So I started getting all ofthese referrals and then that
was the birth of Tutu Tango.
Claude (03:14):
In Tango usually the man actually leads.
Linda Sutton (03:18):
Yes.
Claude (03:19):
And the woman follows.
So how do you see when there'sa relationship, when a woman
doesn't want to be led, theywant to be part of the
discussion.
Linda Sutton (03:29):
That was me in the beginning, so I was like no man
gonna tell me what to do.
I'm a leader already.
What you doing?
here, so I know that concern andthat issue all too well and we
address it in my work and wereally understand leadership and
followership as positions inthe relationship that have
functions.
But one of the primary things Ilead with is that there is no
(03:52):
leader without a follower In thedance of tango.
It requires agreement to be inpartnership with one another and
in that partnership there areroles that we take on that
fulfill certain functions thatallow us to thrive, and so a
woman can still be a leader andshe just moves in the dance in a
(04:13):
different functioning role thatunlocks a different part of
herself, those two positions.
But it does not go withoutsaying that if there is no
agreement with the follower tobe in that role and position,
then there is no leader andthere's a respect for both roles
and both functions.
In the dance you just start inthat role because of the
(04:34):
positions.
So the leader is the personwho's initiating and they are
the person that's facing, if youwill, the flow of traffic.
So it's really a position thing.
But in our framework theleader's goal and role is to
lead and then follow their lead.
So they're taking on bothfunctions even though their
position is the leadershipposition.
(04:54):
They have to lead and then theyhave to follow behind their
leader.
They lead and then the energyis passed to the follower to
execute and then providefeedback.
So there's kind of thiscircular energetic flow in the
dynamics of the dance.
Exactly, it's a dynamic flow ofenergy that passes from one
person to the next and back tothe other person throughout the
(05:16):
dance.
So, once again, leadingfollower are positions in the
dance and the function is adynamic flow of leadership and
followership in the dance.
Jess (05:24):
With Argentinean tango.
The male role is supposedly theleader, but in many parts of
the dance it's actually thewoman leading.
To your point there's that giveand take and a lot of it's
built off that trust of eachother.
Linda, I admitted this to youbefore we started recording that
I actually had takenArgentinian tango and I was not
very good because I was laughingthe whole time.
(05:47):
What would you give advice forpeople that couldn't get on the
zone?
Linda Sutton (05:52):
The beautiful thing is that there's not just
one way to do tango.
Tango, even though there arethe principles, the rules that
govern the roles and then therules that govern the road,
which is how you navigate, it isreally about the couple.
It's not just one style.
That's always serious andstaunch and what you see on
stage and in movies.
There is a playful side, thereis one that flows, there's one
(06:14):
that's very romantic, there's aside of it that's very sensual,
there's a side of it that's veryrhythmic, and all of these
different styles are withintango.
So it's totally appropriatethat when you came into the
dance, you were using laughterto relax into it, to connect in
with your partner, to perhapsrelease your nervousness and to
create bond, and that is totallyappropriate.
(06:37):
It's not just one style thatwhere you have to be serious and
stern.
Jess (06:41):
That might be a misperception, because that's
what I was thinking.
I'm not taking it seriousenough because every time I've
seen it professionally danced,it is more of either the very
sensual or very stern.
Linda Sutton (06:52):
And it's good that you mentioned that, because
that brings up a very importantpoint for people who are new to
the dance.
There is social tango and thereis stage tango, and they are
very different styles.
Stage tango is for performance.
The movements are very big soeveryone can see it.
It's to entertain you, to wowyou.
(07:12):
However, social tango is reallyabout two people connecting,
getting to know one another,bond and build trust.
The movements are usually verysmall.
It's not really about showingoff for the crowd and big
movements.
It's about creating trust andsafety between the two of you.
As you deepen that trust andsafety, other people will be in
(07:33):
awe of it because when they seeyou dance on the floor but
that's not your intention yourintention is not to show off for
the crowd.
It's to connect with yourpartner in a way that's
awe-inspiring when you coachcouples.
Claude (07:43):
It's more the social tango that you're doing, right.
Linda Sutton (07:47):
Absolutely Well.
So the social thing has tooccur before even the stage
tango, because stage tango isvery complex and it requires a
lot of trust not to get hurt,but absolutely with couples we
start with social tango andthose principles.
Jess (08:01):
And you mentioned in your kickoff, you can tell
relationships dynamics withinthree dances.
Linda Sutton (08:09):
Yes, how did that happen?
The things that are required tobuild a successful dance and
have harmony, synergy, closeness, trust and true partnership,
because tango is the ultimatepartnership dance.
It is truly about partnership,leading and following.
They begin to dissolve and itall is about you working in
(08:30):
concert with your partner tocreate the dance, because you go
through the same exact steps ofconnection, trust, concern,
fear, getting in step on thedance.
It's the same thing that youhave to do to have a successful
relationship and if you'rehaving a power struggle with
your partner off the dance floor, it is absolutely going to show
(08:53):
up on the dance floor.
If you have trust issues, ifthere is not an equal level of
respect or value, or you getalong really, really well and
you finish each other'ssentences, oh, it's like don't
you tell me what to do, alongreally, really well and you
finish each other's sentences.
Oh, it's like don't you tell mewhat to do and then you'll see
it on the dance floor in theform of resistance and pushing
back and the desire to be onone's own access.
(09:13):
So there's all this bodylanguage that tells more about
your relationship than yourwords could ever say.
Most people are not aware that93% of communication is actually
nonverbal.
Only 7% of it is the words.
It's tonality, it's bodylanguage, it's energy is the 93%
, and so that's how we know.
Like I said, I know all y'allbusiness and they're surprised.
(09:37):
They're like I, you know.
I'm like okay, this is.
I give them a profile.
I'm like okay, so this is whatyou guys are going through at
home.
And they're like how do you?
Claude (09:48):
So you see that there's a misbalance between the couple.
How do you change that dynamic?
Linda Sutton (09:54):
Absolutely.
I take them through a series ofmovement exercises, through a
class or a camp or a privatelesson, and literally we work
through building their dance,and then they have these aha
moments in their relationshipbecause they can feel it in
their body.
So they realize that trust isnot some sort of abstract idea,
(10:15):
it is actually a trust or lackof trust actually shows up in
how their partner's bodyresponds to them.
Safety shows up in their bodyeven misunderstanding.
For example, if a follower doesnot understand the leader's
lead, he can actually feel thatconfusion in her body, and so
then it becomes oh my goodness,okay, I can hear when I'm not
(10:38):
clear, I can hear when shedoesn't quite understand.
Even though her eyes are closed, even though I can't see her
face, I can feel that tension orthat concern or hesitation in
her body.
That's how we walk through itin the sessions or class.
Jess (10:51):
I heard you mention energy alignment.
It sounds similar to whatyou're talking about.
What does that look like in ahealthy relationship?
And then what does that looklike where you can tell there's
some strife or opportunities inthat relationship?
Linda Sutton (11:02):
One of the things that I like to do because I know
as a lady myself and as I workwith ladies who are leaders,
always reconciling thatfollowership position in the
relationship.
It's a partnership and it'sjust a function of positions in
the dance.
What we find in this work andwhat I do in terms of a healthy
(11:24):
dynamic is, number oneunderstanding.
It's a partnership.
That's what the work is.
And number two, they're bothequal and interdependent.
So that's why I always leadwith.
There is no leader without afollower.
So your role as a leader iscompletely dependent upon a
vision that's shared andtherefore agreement.
(11:45):
If I don't agree to follow youand work together
collaboratively with you, thenyou are not a leader.
And work togethercollaboratively with you, then
you are not a leader.
And then, at any point in timewhere I'm not in agreement and
you see that not only inrelationships that are romantic,
but also friendships and inwork if we are no longer in
alignment with the vision thatthe leader is holding and the
(12:05):
agreements that we have in place, then you lose followers.
We each have roles and we'recontributing to this whole in a
partnership to create somethingbeautiful.
Claude (12:15):
I love this analogy A follow-on leader is not a
hierarchy, because usually, yes,that's what people assume right
away and I love that you'resaying no, it's not.
It's actually side by side.
Linda Sutton (12:27):
It actually starts with the follower.
And you see that in the danceand that's what I love about it,
because I started out this andit took me about a year and a
half because I'm strong If youguys can't already tell, I am a
strong sister Just thatresistance to being controlled
and told what to do was moremental.
(12:48):
But then I realized that thedance actually starts with the
follower.
But then I realized that thedance actually starts with the
follower.
The leader is inspired by thefollower in the dance to go
through all of that to learnwhat is needed in order to lead.
Most leaders don't wake up oneday and it's like oh yes, I want
to dance tango.
Many of them they see followersor some people that they want
(13:12):
to collaborate with and thenthey say I'm going to gather the
skills that are necessary inorder to collaborate with this
person and you don't become aleader typically until you have
been a follower.
Jess (13:24):
You had shared with us the two to tango structure
framework.
Help us understand how youcreated it and how it helps to
navigate with conflict ormisalignment.
Linda Sutton (13:33):
Oh great.
So when we talk about alignment, the image give people as a
starting point is yin and yang,and so yin and yang represents
the masculine and feminineforces male, woman just kind of
how things occur in the cosmos.
And this apparently isimportant to you guys, because I
see you all laughing like.
Jess (13:52):
Well, we have many clips about how, in a majority of our
episodes, one of us says yin andyang.
Because I do believe it.
I always comment it was her andthen, when I was doing the
editing, back to make a funnyclip about it it wound up being
more me saying it, becausethat's the energy between the
two of you.
Linda Sutton (14:11):
That's probably what you're seeing Exactly,
because, when you like, you twoare a perfect example of balance
and synergy and workingtogether and harmony and
playfulness and a shared visionand partnership.
And so it makes sense that yinand yang would be a natural way
that you would describe orperceive your interaction
Equally in the dance.
(14:32):
When you talk about healthyenergetic alignment, this is
what I like to say with couples,you know, because there is a
masculine and feminine, at leastin the couples that I work with
, there's a man and woman, sothere's a natural masculine and
feminine dynamic.
But what I also like to tellpeople is that most people focus
on the masculine and thefeminine, but they forget the
little circles that are in thatparticular image, that is, of
(14:56):
the other.
So within yang there is yin andwithin yin there is yang.
And so when we were talkingabout that kind of flow of
energy and dynamic that you seein the dance, where the lead
leads and then follows his leadand then, once he passes the
energy, the follower executes.
So there's an initiation whichis activity, there's execution,
(15:19):
which is activity, and so yousee that kind of flow.
That is the baseline that helpsme to walk people through the
framework.
And then there's a way that youbuild your dance.
You invite your partner, youapproach your partner, you get
into the embrace, you set theboundaries and you express what
your level of trust is.
You make tests, and so you gothrough those stages in every
(15:41):
single dance in order to have asuccessful dance.
Well, if you go through thosesame exact steps in your
interaction with your partner,you will get repeatable results.
It's mind-blowing when you seeit in action.
Jess (15:57):
And you mentioned a lot of this has to do with body
language versus verbal.
Knowing that a lot of thelisteners are focused on
continuing to develop therelationship with work besties,
are there elements of thisframework that they could
incorporate into understandingtheir bestie by just reading
body language?
Linda Sutton (16:15):
which is a way of listening.
So I'm going to start with theembrace, because in some of your
previous work I've heard peopletalk about.
(16:35):
Well, people have differentperceptions of their work
relationship.
Some of them think it's justprofessional and so the boundary
is that we're justprofessionals and never the
twain shall meet in terms ofother areas of my life.
For some we're besties, butit's only in a professional
setting, so we don't reallyintroduce our personal lives or
other parts of ourselves to it.
(16:55):
And then the other is we fullon besties on at work.
At happy hour you come into thebarbecue at my house, my
children's birthday parties, mymama come and make apple pie,
you come over and get a slice.
So you have those kind of waysof perceiving no-transcript.
(17:39):
That's okay, but you establishthat upfront and then you move
through your connection, whichis the embrace.
That way, in reverse, you havechest to chest contact, which is
apilado, which means you're allin every area of your life,
you're not on your own accessand you bring together your
professional lives, yourpersonal lives, even sometimes
(18:00):
your spiritual life together toreally connect with each other,
both in the workplace and out ofthe workplace.
Once you've established thatconnection and then you interact
with each other from there andthen everything in between.
So once you meet someone thatyou gel with, just be clear in
your mind and communicateclearly to them where you feel
comfortable in terms of thelevel of closeness.
(18:21):
And then, once you'veestablished that, then move in
that.
And I say that because somepeople, like the two of you,
it's like all in, like BFF,right, and if she called me
after work, I'm pulling off myearrings and I'm driving up and
I'm saying where you at, I'mpulling up, so this people.
But then some people may notfeel comfortable with that, but
they really want to have areally, really close
(18:42):
relationship within theprofessional boundaries and
that's okay and that they canreally share and connect.
But then when they go home,like you say, working with teams
that are remote, they may never, ever get to see each other
physically, because I'm in onecountry and my teammates in
another country, so we may neverget to engage that close, but
we still may have a closenessthat we can bring to our work.
(19:05):
So that's the first concept.
The second concept is theinvitation, which is once again
using verbal language, andusually that's how work besties
meet each other, like there'ssome, there's a chemistry, there
is a pull.
You feel like we going to getalong.
I can see already from acrossthe room.
And then you're in that meetingand someone says something and
(19:27):
you say something and you lookat each other like, yeah, I see
you at the water cooler I cansee.
So you have that eye contact.
You see someone in their bodylanguage, perhaps in several
meetings or in interactions, theway that their body language
invites you in and lets you know, hey, I feel safe and
comfortable with you, you canget closer.
(19:47):
Or even just the way they leanin when they talk to you.
There's these nonverbal cuesthat you can use to get closer.
We definitely use it in tangoand we would use it here.
And then I would say the lastthing, which is how the energy
moves in between, is that trustbuilds over time.
With tango, even though we maystart out in the open embrace,
(20:12):
as time moves on I may feel moreand more comfortable as I build
trust to get closer and closerto you.
In tango we do that and I cansee that happening in the work
environment as well.
It would be appropriate.
You may start out.
I'm feeling a little bit moreguarded, perhaps because of the
past or I'm not sure.
But then as we engage over time, we can build that level of
closeness and deepen that trust.
Claude (20:33):
I was thinking what's actually the opposite, when you
have one person that definitelywants to be your workplace from
the beginning, so I'm trying tosteal you from me, and then the
other person is not there.
Is it more that verbal cue orthe physical cue?
Linda Sutton (20:52):
Absolutely, and we see that in tango, for example.
There might be a leader or afollower who is like yes, I
would like to get closer to you,and then there's another
partner which is not quite there.
It could be an overall thing orit could be a just in the
moment thing, like today I'm nothaving a good day and we might
normally dance a certain way,but today I'm kind of in a
(21:15):
different space.
Usually the follower sets thedistance only because they're in
the most vulnerable position,meaning they're the ones who's
walking backwards.
So usually they set that.
But the leader also islistening and watching.
Okay, partner is standing 12inches away from me, or 18
inches away from me.
That's a clear cue that theywant open embrace, that they
(21:39):
need some space, that they needsome distance, and so I'm going
to engage with them in that wayand not going to try to pull
them in when they're there.
I'm going to engage with themfrom this place.
And so leaders do that.
They listen to the distance andthe body language of their
follower or their partner, andthen they make adjustments and
it's okay.
And the whole thing is tocreate a safe space for them to
(22:01):
feel comfortable with thedistance that they've
established, and so it's abeautiful, beautiful thing in
terms of leadership, and this iswhere leading is not really a
hierarchy, it's a role.
The leader is saying my partnerhas greater distance, so my
role is just to create a safespace for them to establish
(22:22):
their boundaries and respect itand honor them and interact with
them in the space that they'vecreated, that I'm going to
create for us.
Jess (22:30):
That they've created and that I'm going to create for us.
This relates so beautifully towork besties, Cause that's
pretty much the ethos of therelationship is to create that
safe space for each other.
Obviously, being in Yangbounces back and forth.
I'm just thinking.
Over the last couple of weeksthere's been a couple of times
where you've come up to me inthe office and been like how are
you doing?
What's going on?
Ready to like talk aboutsomething.
Claude (22:58):
And I just give you the look and you're like, okay, okay
, I'm not going to settle awaybecause I can't.
Jess (23:00):
And then that's the thing is that I didn't have to say
anything.
I just gave you the look andyou knew oh yeah, and I did
trust that.
Claude (23:08):
Yeah, I didn't take it personally.
I'm like okay she'll come.
Her time she'll come and I knowshe'll come back later and say,
okay, I can talk now.
I can be vice versa.
Jess (23:19):
So yeah, that's totally that's a great example of that
Real time that's been happeninga lot.
Linda Sutton (23:25):
Exactly, and the beautiful thing is that you
didn't take offense to it, youdidn't feel as a rejection, and
that's the beautiful dynamicyour own personal tango.
She doesn't want it to close.
Embrace the day or in thismoment.
I respect that.
I create the space for it.
And the wonderful thing is whenyou honor and you create the
space for your partner to be inthat fluidity in terms of level
(23:50):
of trust, level of closeness,based on where they are, then it
creates the space for them tomove through it.
So let's say, today I'm needingsome space.
When you're like, okay, I'mgoing to hold the space for you,
even if you're 20 feet away.
And then, once you haveprocessed, when you've allowed
yourself to calm down, then yougo looking for your bestie.
You'll be like, hey, girl,where?
Claude (24:10):
you at.
Where does the guy seat you allday?
Linda Sutton (24:18):
But looking for your bestie.
Jess (24:19):
You were like hey, girl, where you at?
Claude (24:20):
where does the guy beat you all day.
But it's also because we knoweach other, we know what is
happening in each other lives.
Yeah, so that's why I wasprofessionally and personally,
yeah, you know exactly.
So that is why you know thatyou're not taking it personally,
because you know fundamentallywhat they are going through.
And that was and I like thatpoint also one day when we had,
I had a question, I'm like howare you?
And told me something.
And then, and I misread it andI gave solutions.
Jess (24:46):
And you answered I don't need solutions.
Claude (24:49):
I need to vent.
Linda Sutton (24:51):
And the beautiful thing about body language and
energetic alignment is it worksextremely well when you know
each other, but it still workseven if you don't.
And if you move with anawareness of your partner or the
person that you're engagingwith and you're looking at that
and knowing that most of thecommunication is going to come
(25:13):
from this before they open theirmouths, then the minute they
started to speak, they wouldjust be watching your cues and
they would say, oh, okay, herface is disengaged, okay, her
body pulled back.
Okay, she went from smiling tonot smiling.
She went from leaning forwardas she was to leaning back.
I was like I'm not listening toClaude and I'm like, know, she
(25:33):
went from leaning forward as shewas to leaning back.
Jess (25:34):
I was like I'm like, oh, she's not listening.
No, yes, no, I was thinking ofsomething else.
Linda Sutton (25:41):
It's also incredible.
Claude (25:43):
I think you need an emotional maturity to understand
those cues Because, for example, I know people that I give this
physical like get away from me.
They don't understand, so theykeep on going.
Jess (25:58):
They do.
They're playing tango with you.
They see it as a challenge.
Linda Sutton (26:02):
Yeah, it's like you threw down the rose here I
go and I'm like nope, nope, I'mnot looking at each other.
Jess (26:11):
This is when you know people really well.
I immediately know what she'stalking about.
Linda Sutton (26:15):
The movies Tango is like about the chase and the
conquering and all that.
It is actually not.
That in practice Really isabout the invitation and the
acceptance of the invitation andthere is a persistence, but not
from a conquering standpoint,at least from a social
environment.
If there is a persistence, butnot from a concrete standpoint,
at least from a socialenvironment.
If there is resistance, theleader usually because there's
(26:38):
principles that govern tango thefollower is usually observing
the leaders in a variety ofenvironments before they accept
the dance.
When the follower does notaccept their dance or their
invitation, then they understandthat there's an energy
misalignment.
So the leader doesn't take thatas a I've got to conquer.
(27:01):
As much as there's notinvitation, there's not enough
information or there is a vibemisalignment.
It doesn't mean that they'llnever try again, because usually
in social settings if peopleare not already coupled up you
might be having an off day, Imight check in later.
But if people are not alreadycoupled up, you might be having
an off day, I might check inlater.
But if she sends a very clearno, then they're like okay,
there's a vibe check, we're justnot on the same page.
(27:23):
Just like in work, just like inrelationship.
It's just not a fit, and youcan still be in the same space
and not be partners.
Claude (27:31):
Sometimes the follower is not ready yet, right, because
so the leader might try a bitlater, in a different way, to
really be able to be, to lookdifferently at the other person
and work with them to make themsecure and trusty.
Linda Sutton (27:50):
Absolutely.
That's the same way in terms ofwork as you're getting to know
your coworkers.
You're a new person on the team.
You're still trying to figureout who you vibe with, who you
can trust, because you can'ttrust everybody at work,
everybody not trustworthy.
As you go through that, you mayhave the welcoming team like hi
, welcome.
But that new person is like I'mnot sure yet, and so you don't
(28:11):
stop making a space for them tofeel welcome just because in
that first couple of daysthey're still trying to feel it
out.
You create the space for themand then you allow them to
observe and make their decisionsand you honor that.
Jess (28:26):
Have you ever had a bad partner on the dance floor and
how did you overcome that?
Who would share?
Yes, not what I thought youwere going to respond to.
Linda Sutton (28:39):
You don't get to dance this long and not have bad
partners.
It's less so nowadays because Itake the time to observe my
partners before I accept theirinvitation.
At this point I can see some ofthe things that may not align
with me.
I definitely listen to my gutand listen to the energy,
because it is an energy.
(29:00):
If something in my energy saysmaybe not, then I trust that the
body exchange that's going on.
But early in my career I feltlike you couldn't say no, you
want to be nice and you want toaccept everybody, and the
gentleman was basically tryingto get me to do something and it
wasn't working.
What I was receiving from themwas not what they were leading,
(29:22):
and so that's usually where itoccurs.
It's not usually that they're abad leader.
It's that they're not realizingthat the signal that they're
sending is not what's comingacross and they don't know, they
don't, are not yet aware thatit's your leadership.
Not necessarily she's not doingit right, she's just there to
follow and that there's somefeedback.
(29:42):
The way that I handled, learnedto handle it, was that I say
I'm just here to follow and thatworks.
Jess (29:50):
It does helps them recognize that they're
misaligned in what they'releading.
Linda Sutton (29:56):
That communicates the cause and effect, because
leading and following is a causeand effect.
So I'm the leader, so whateverI do is what's impacting you.
If what's coming out is notwhat I want to see, then it's
for me, as a leader, to make theadjustment.
It's not, it doesn't matterwhether or not they're getting
it right.
They know what to do or don'tknow what to do.
(30:17):
It's for them to understand, atleast in the dance, that,
because we're in a space wherethere's safety issues, if
something is not going as youneed it to go, then I put the
onus back.
And because the leadership roleis to initiate and their mind
is to execute, so I just givethem a gentle reminder that I'm
just here to follow, and thenthey're like it's a very subtle
(30:39):
way, but because they understandwhen I say I'm just here to
follow, they're like so she'sputting it back on me.
I'm the one who's leading thisand what I'm seeing is a
function of what I'm doing.
And so that's how I resolve itnow, and I also teach my
followers to do that gracefully.
We're so used to verbalcommunication we don't think
that that's sufficient, but whatI use is my body language to
(31:02):
just be in a non-combativeposition.
I just stand and I wait.
And then they're like trying toget it to do and I'm like I'm
not understanding.
I just wait and then if they dosomething and it's not working
out, I stay.
And that's actually I become agreat follower.
I would stand and I wouldn'tmove.
Whatever they led, I would goto that position and then I
(31:24):
would stay there.
I wouldn't try to correct it, Iwouldn't try to make it right,
I wouldn't try to tell them itwas right or wrong.
I would just give them thespace to see it.
And then they realize right orwrong, I would just give them
the space to see it.
Claude (31:37):
And then they realize, oh, she is a reflection of my
lead, and then they would makethe adjustment.
It doesn't take much more.
That is so interesting.
It goes back to the hierarchybetween, you know, follower and
leader.
You actually, a follower, hasso much power as well well,
that's why it's not a hierarchy.
Jess (31:57):
You're very equal the whole time.
Claude (31:59):
How are you?
Jess (31:59):
helping each other.
Claude (32:00):
And that is so interesting to say.
At the beginning I was sayingto the question oh, usually it's
the man that is leading, butthere's a power in both
situations and the follower canactually impact the leader and
make him change.
And that is what is sofascinating.
Linda Sutton (32:19):
That is actually why I dance tango professionally
Once I had that breakthrough,because I used to perceive the
follower as a position ofweakness because of that, that
was where my resistance was.
As opposed to, it is truly aposition of power and even more
energy.
(32:39):
It actually unlocks somethingwithin you as a follower.
Let me just back up with onething the leader initiates, the
(33:02):
follower executes.
So the leader sends the energyand the follower is the physical
expression of the energy thatthe gentleman has sent out.
Everything that she is is justtaking energy and showing it to
the world.
She actually amplifies it.
So the gentleman understandsfor every centimeter of lead
(33:25):
you're going to see six inchesof movement in the woman.
That number one is justextraordinary to realize.
It's like wait a second.
You literally are anexponential expression of all
the power that you receive.
So anything that anyone givesyou, you have the ability in
life and work to expand it andexpress it in a very large,
(33:51):
powerful, creative way.
And then the second thing isonce I realized, then it allowed
me, because I am such a strongleader in other areas, to really
tap into how powerful I couldbe as a follower and to be that
pure expression and be that purefeedback.
So one of the reasons why I'vedone so well in Excel
professionally is because I havea reputation for being a pure
(34:15):
follower, and excelprofessionally is because I have
a reputation for being a purefollower.
So all the men that dance withme know what they are giving.
I am going to be an exact quote, unquote reflection of that.
So then they really know thatthe onus is on them.
They really can't blame theirfollowers on what's going on.
They have to take fullresponsibility and ownership for
(34:38):
everything they initiate.
And I just am giving themfeedback, pure without any.
You got it wrong, you got itright.
And it's a really powerfulthing when I'm working with
leaders for them to realize that, because then they have a
completely different interactionwith their followers, with
their employees, with theirchildren, with their wives.
(34:59):
Because when they understand,everything they initiate is
showing up in the world back tome in an amplified fashion.
And if I want to see somethingdifferent in the world, then I
have got to change what I amdoing, how I am leading, how I'm
approaching another person,because they're just going to
give back to me what I give andit's going to be bigger.
Claude (35:21):
It's incredible how and until we had this podcast and we
started to talk, I neverthought of the relationship in
dancing can be applied toleadership also at work.
It's great to have this analogyand it's so much easier then to
apply as a leader at work, toapply that dense thoughts.
Linda Sutton (35:43):
Absolutely.
We're talking about work, andso leadership typically is, in
the workplace, hierarchical froman organization standpoint.
However, even though theorganizational chart may be
hierarchical, the way that thework is done is in teams the
more successful or the mostsuccessful organizations.
(36:03):
The leader yields to their team.
They are having the vision,they're leading the vision but,
like in the dance, they'reconstantly getting feedback from
their followers and their teammembers on how things are going,
how things should go.
You know they usually giveverbal feedback or they give
nonverbal feedback in terms oftheir satisfaction, because you
can tell when a team is reallyon board with their leader and
(36:27):
when a team is not on board.
Their body language, how theyperform, is a direct reflection
of their relationship to theirleader or their team members.
I come in, I just give it thebare minimum.
I don't really engage andparticipate in the meetings.
That's a sign to leadershipthat you want to engage that
person and it's feedback for youto make adjustments.
Claude (36:48):
And as a follower or leader, was giving you something
and you say that you expandedsix times?
Was giving you something andyou say that you expanded six
times the same thing.
If you're a good leader, youwant your team to shine, to
receive whatever you can giveand then they can go make it
this beautiful project.
Linda Sutton (37:05):
And that's what you see in the dance.
When you see a couple dance,who are you watching?
The woman actually, exactly,most people are looking at the
woman because the woman is thefollower.
She's executing all the moves.
The gentleman is leading themoves, but he's not executing
the steps.
You're watching the followerbecause the follower is the most
expressive part of the dance.
(37:27):
Gentleman does moves, but hecan't lead and be doing more
than she's doing, because he hasto provide the stability and
the support.
So you're exactly right.
The best leaders yield to theirfollowers and make them look
fabulous and, more importantly,they spend as much time
listening to their followers asthey do leading.
The best leaders in tango areextraordinary listeners.
(37:50):
They're listening to everythingthat's going on with their
follower in her body and makingadjustments every single step.
We get so caught up in thebigness of the dance.
The reason that our frameworkworks is because this feedback
conversation is happening withevery single step.
You can't get to the next stepuntil you execute this one fully
(38:11):
, and that's why, within threeto five steps, if it's not
working, the dance falls apart.
It doesn't take 10 minutes ofdancing for the dance to fall
apart.
It falls apart within three tofive steps.
Jess (38:25):
Linda, if our listeners want more of this connection or
harmony, or feel like they'remissing this passion in their
lives, where should they start?
Linda Sutton (38:33):
I just recently released a book called it Takes
Two to Tango using the secretsof the dance to create a
passionate partnership.
There's 22 intricate steps thatyou use to build a dance and I
draw the parallels on how youcan build that in the
relationship.
I also have some materials onmy website, lindadesuttoncom.
Forward slash ebook For peoplethat are just afraid of dancing
(38:55):
itself.
They can start there to getover their fear interpretation
of dancing before they start thenext phase of dancing with
another.
Claude (39:01):
Thank you so much, linda .
Really it was a veryenlightening episode.
We truly love it and we can seeand apply that dance metaphor
to our relationships.
Metaphor to our relationships.
Bestie, if you love thisepisode as much as we did, don't
forget to follow, subscribe andalso send it to your work,
(39:24):
bestie.
Linda Sutton (39:26):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me, ciao.
Jess (39:30):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending other from endlessmeetings, or just sending that
perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (39:43):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
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