April 7, 2025 • 37 mins
Stoic Empathy with Shermin Kruse: How to Navigate Difficult Conversations
In this episode, we sit down with the brilliant Shermin Kruse —law professor, TEDx producer, author, and total powerhouse—to explore the concept of stoic empathy. What does it really mean to be both strong and compassionate in today’s workplace? How can leaders show up with emotional intelligence without losing their edge?
Shermin drops incredible insights on:
- Leading with integrity while setting strong boundaries
- What stoicism actually is (hint: it’s not just suppressing emotions!)
- How empathy can be your superpower—even in tough corporate environments
- Real stories from her life that shaped her journey from revolutionary Iran to U.S. boardrooms and classrooms
If you’re a leader, a team player, or just trying to show up better at work and in life, this conversation is for you.
👀 Bonus: Hear about her upcoming book Stoic Empathy and why it’s the personal development read you’ll want in 2025.
Find Her on LinkedIn, Youtube and her book at any location that sells books!
—
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:00):
Hello and welcome WorkBesties.
What if the key to handling theworkplace stress, the difficult
coworkers and yourhigh-pressure situations wasn't
just about empathy or logic, butmastering both?
I know that seems confusing,right, but it's not.
So.
We're so excited today to haveSherman Cruz on our podcast.
(00:22):
Sherman Cruz is globallyrecognized as a negotiation
consultant, a law professorauthor and a recognized TED Talk
producer.
If you have not watched her TEDTalks, we highly recommend it
because they are amazing.
She is very transformative inwork and empathy, stoicism and
complex negotiations.
(00:43):
She's influenced audiences fromall levels, from corporate
boardrooms to universityclassrooms.
To us.
Shermin Kruse (00:51):
Sharing Bechamel recipes right.
Jess (00:54):
We'll explain that later.
Stay with us, because by theend of this episode, you
yourself, work besties are goingto hear directly from the
source.
What's that?
One sentence that you can saythat will instantly shift the
power dynamic into your favor.
You're not going to want tomiss it.
Hi, I'm Claude, and I'm Jess.
Claude (01:14):
We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs
by night and work besties forlife.
Jess (01:20):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties.
Welcome, Sherman.
We're so excited to have you.
Shermin Kruse (01:35):
Thank you so much .
I am so excited to be here andI have to say that you guys are
making me really miss my formerwork bestie.
We haven't worked together fora few years but I miss her so
much.
Her name is Chris, and alsoClaude.
You also look a lot like myhigh school bestie.
Her name is Shana A lot.
(01:57):
And the second.
I saw your photo I thought mygosh.
I feel a spiritual connectionto this amazing French person.
Claude (02:07):
She's going to start crying.
Now I'm going to say I'm sorry,I'm Charmaine's bestie.
Yeah, very close.
Shermin Kruse (02:14):
Yeah, I'll take Claude for Shaina.
Jess (02:18):
Thanks, I didn't know, it was so easily replaceable.
Shermin Kruse (02:21):
It's only for a minute.
Jess (02:23):
Charmaine, why don't you tell us a little bit about who
you are?
Shermin Kruse (02:26):
Okay, sure, it is so amazing to be here.
Thank you so much for having meon.
It's such a privilege and apleasure and I love this show
and I loved prepping for thisappearance because I love the
dynamics between you two, and somuch of the dynamic between the
two of you, jess and Claude, iswhat I would really love to
talk to you about today, andreally what that is is the work
(02:49):
I've been interested in myentire life really, since I was
a child in Iran, throughout myyears of debating in high school
and then studying in universityand law school and then
practicing law and now teachinglaw.
I've been fascinated by thisconflict between the internal
and the external, and I've heardyou guys talk about this so
(03:10):
much, for instance, in thecontext of wellness and this
balance that you find right,this conflict that can also
present itself as a balance,this idea of being healthy
emotionally and able to regulateand control your own feelings
and your own approach to aparticular situation, while
(03:30):
still having deep awareness ofthe people you're around, so
that you can develop thoselong-term relationships with
them and build on them, because,at the end of the day, that is
what brings life meaning.
It's also what helps you gaininfluence and control and power
in a particular situation.
(03:50):
So I've actually seen the two ofyou master that so beautifully
in your relationship with oneanother.
You're so each authenticallyyourselves and yet you are still
so deeply connected to oneanother.
And that's really the work thatI'm interested in.
If I were to apply it to theworkplace, then it would
(04:12):
literally be in the context ofhow do you master emotional
regulation in tense situations,or how do you navigate office
politics, or how do you receiveand give recovery or feedback
and handle difficult colleagues,etc.
Etc.
And that is where my method ofstoic empathy comes in.
It essentially captures whatyou two have already mastered in
(04:35):
your interactions with oneanother in two simple words
right stoicism, which is theemotional regulation piece,
which is control over yourself,and empathy, which is the
awareness piece, awareness ofthe other, which is also a means
of gaining influence over theother, thereby gaining influence
over yourself and the other inthe process of building and
(05:00):
fusing those amazingrelationships together that last
a lifetime.
Jess (05:04):
Wow, that is amazing and I appreciate you recognizing what
we put into this, because it'sfun, for sure, but it is also a
lot of learning, as we reallyrespect each other.
And the thing that you talkabout really well is how.
Yes, there are going to benegotiations where you both try
and call it win if you want, butat the end of the day,
(05:24):
leveraging empathy will help, nomatter what.
Yes, there are going to benegotiations where you both try
and call it win if you want, butat the end of the day,
leveraging empathy will help, nomatter what, even if, in some
sort of situations, one of ushas to give more than the other.
It's a showing of understandingwithout you're providing an
understanding of where they'recoming from Not necessarily
(05:47):
feeling their emotions, which isabout distinct difference that
you talk to.
That I had not really heard inany other business class that
I've ever been in.
Claude (05:51):
Can you explain a little bit more to our audience?
It's so incredible when I wasresearching you like this
empathy that you have two kindsof empathy and how do you use
them, depending on the situation.
I love it.
Shermin Kruse (06:05):
So, you guys, what Jess and Claude are talking
about Work Bestie audience isthis understanding by
psychologists that empathy isreally divided into two parts.
And I'm going to start bysaying it's divided into two
parts and then I'm going to endby saying it's actually not
divided into two parts at all.
So please bear with me.
So it's divided into two parts,right.
On the one end you have thecognitive, cognitive empathy and
(06:28):
on the other end, you have theemotional.
The emotional empathy is howmost of us understand and
experience empathy on a dailybasis.
So, emotional empathy and, bythe way, no matter how cold
hearted you are, you haveexperienced emotional empathy in
, for instance, the followingcircumstance you are watching
(06:50):
your favorite television show,right?
Your favorite character in yourfavorite TV show has just had
this amazing thing happen tothem after a season of
difficulties.
They get in their car andthey're driving and happy, music
is playing and the sun isshining.
They look down at their phonebecause they receive a text
message and suddenly you knowthat this is going to be a
disaster.
The music shifts, a car t-bonesthem, their car swerves out of
(07:13):
control, the glass shatters.
What do you do?
You recoil.
And what's incredible about.
That is, the glass isn'tcutting your skin.
Nothing has happened to you.
It has happened to someone else, and, in fact, not even to a
real person, but to a fictionalcharacter on a television
program, but one that you'vegotten attached to.
So this is emotional empathy.
(07:33):
The idea is your pain in myheart, right?
I don't feel the kind of painthat I would feel if glass was
cutting my skin, but I feel painin response to your pain.
That's emotional empathy, right?
So then, of course, translatethat into really meaningful
real-life situations, as opposedto fictional interactions, and
think about how incrediblypowerful that type of connection
can be Over.
(07:54):
Here, we have something verydifferent we have cognitive
empathy.
With cognitive empathy, it'smore like I'm not walking in
your shoes, but I'm sinking mysteps to your steps, so I'm able
to see where you walk, when youpause, what you hear, right,
what it feels like, how cold itis.
I'm able to experience yourexperiences without feeling your
(08:18):
emotions.
A really great example of thisis one that, in fact, I give in
one of my TEDx talks, which ismy mom and I, when I was a kid
in Iran, encountered a member ofthe morality police when we
were on the street in Tehran.
I wasn't covered up properlyWith that guard.
We were in serious trouble andwe had no power at all, but we
(08:38):
didn't necessarily want to befeeling what the guard is
feeling.
So we could develop a long termrelationship with this guard,
right, we just wanted tounderstand where she's coming
from so that we could get out ofbeing in trouble, and that was
what our ethic required us.
But it's not just that.
It's not just when you meet aperceived enemy or encounter
(08:58):
someone who is hostile towardsyou.
It's also trauma surgeon, right, or counselor working at a
refugee camp encounteringvictims of mass rape, right.
These individuals, in order tohelp the person whom they are
working to heal and I know youguys are doing a whole thing
about wellness in 2025, in orderto help the person that they
(09:22):
are looking to heal, they needto maintain a certain amount of
objectivity and emotionaldistance.
Or, if they were to experiencethis person's feelings, they too
would be so traumatized theymight not be able to help them
anymore or help anyone else, andso they literally would be
ineffective at doing the workthat the other person requires
them to do.
(09:42):
If they were feeling everythingthey were feeling.
So remember, in the beginning wesaid that we say there's two
parts, but there really isn'ttwo parts.
Okay, so this is where therereally isn't two parts.
Unless you are a psychopath,you are never going to
experience pure cognitiveempathy without any emotional
connection at all.
(10:02):
Right, it's just not human.
Once you start to understandthe other person, you start to
experience an emotional reactionof sorts.
So it's really more of aspectrum how much of this versus
how much of this, depending onthe situation.
Not just so I can serve myselfme and my mom getting out of
getting in trouble with themorality guard but also so we
(10:25):
can serve others trauma surgeonversus this, your child, your
husband, your integrated merger,where you want to have a
long-term relationship with thecompany that you are merging
with so that you can worktogether and be productive in
the future.
So this is a spectrum.
There's some things that aregoing to be closer to here, some
things that are going to becloser to here, but most of it
(10:48):
is going to be in the middle.
Really, the goal in the workthat I do is helping you gain
the control that you need in anygiven situation so that you can
decide where on the spectrumyou want to be, which is
situation dependent, and evenwithin a particular context or
situation, you might feel oneway at the beginning of the
conversation and somethingtotally different at the end of
(11:08):
the conversation or toward themiddle of the conversation, and
then modulate your level ofemotional connection while
maintaining that cognitiveempathy the entire time and
reaping the benefits of it.
So that's really the goal of thework is how do I get better at
understanding the spectrum,because you all already have
done it, you've done it amillion times.
(11:29):
You're all already thinking ofexamples of times where you've
done things like this, right,but how do I get better at
recognizing what is it that I'mdoing so that I can be more
intentional about it, so thattimes when I shut myself off way
too quickly when I shouldn'tright, or times when I get
attached when I really shouldn'tto serve myself, to serve
(11:49):
others, to serve my community,to be true to who I am how do I
grasp this so I can be moreintentional?
And then, how do I actually doit?
How do I get to here?
What if I'm someone who just isalways here?
I'm always here.
I could never be a traumasurgeon.
Claude (12:04):
So you were saying you know about those empathy, but
when do you know which one youshould go more in the emotional
and then which one more in thecognitive?
Shermin Kruse (12:16):
That's such a great question, by the way,
claude, and it is difficult toknow, and sometimes you get it
wrong, which is exactly whybeing able to shift is so
important, because, as you mighthave the incorrect information,
you might go into a situationfully trusting, ready to connect
emotionally, and then you gainaccess to information that tells
you, you know, red alert, redalert, red alert.
(12:38):
I'm going to need to adjust theway I'm connecting to this
person, but I'm not ready toterminate the relationship, but
I want to adjust the way I'mconnecting to this person, but
I'm not ready to terminate therelationship, but I want to
adjust the way I'm connecting tothem.
And and then I go along myspectrum.
So so one of the answers toyour question is you might not
know when you step in, andthat's why it's so important to
be able to transition as youmove through.
But to answer your questionmore directly, let me give you a
(13:01):
couple of examples, a reallygood one.
I know the three of us are moms.
I know not everybody thatwatches this show is a parent,
but probably a lot of you have,at one point or another, been
responsible for someone morevulnerable than yourself.
Now, whether you're a leader,leading a team in a workplace
setting, or you are a parentresponsible for your children,
so you'll relate to this story.
(13:23):
I was at home.
This was about 10 years ago.
My kids were still quite youngand I had four, four and under.
I might be getting some ofthose ages wrong because I'm old
and my memory is going, but Ihad a bunch of young kids at
home.
They were young.
They were young, they werelittle, and there was a lot of
them.
And so I get a phone call andthe call is traumatic.
(13:45):
There's traumatic news beingconveyed on the telephone.
I'm in the middle of motheringmy children.
Now, if I was all alone, thelevel of freedom that I would
have to express my emotions inthat moment would be
fundamentally different than thefact that I wasn't alone and I
(14:06):
was with people who werevulnerable, than the fact that I
wasn't alone and I was withpeople who were vulnerable.
And if I were to behave in away that would traumatize my
kids, I would be making analready difficult situation
worse right.
So suddenly, my ability toabsorb this traumatic
information and manage it in acontrolled manner began to
exceed my own wildestexpectations, precisely because
(14:29):
of my empathic understanding ofthe needs of those more
vulnerable than me my children,who are in the room, right, it's
like what CEOs did during COVID, and it doesn't mean that you
display a lack of authenticityor a lack of vulnerability.
Even in that moment, you couldtell your kids mommy just got
some really bad news, I justneed a minute to drink some
water or something like that.
(14:49):
You can still be honest, youcan still reveal your
vulnerability, but you'recertainly not going to react
emotionally the way that youmight have if they weren't there
.
You find this power within you,this sense of control.
That's almost superhero-esque,right?
We see people be capable of thisIn a physical form.
(15:11):
It might be lifting a carbecause your kid's under it.
This is the emotional versionof it, right, and what we want
to do is we want to take thatcapability, which everybody
already has, and we want to makeit more intentional, and then
we want to try very hard not tojudge, because it isn't up to me
to tell you how emotionallyconnected you need to be in a
particular situation.
(15:32):
This is work that you need todo for yourself, and I can help
you get there by helping you askthe right questions, pause,
evaluate the situation, teachingyou tricks on how to be able to
tolerate discomfort so that youcould properly evaluate that
situation.
But at the end of the day, it'snot up to me to tell you that,
(15:52):
and different people strugglewith different things.
Some people automatically getoverly emotional, some people
shut down, and you've met bothtypes right and you could
probably tell them where theycould use some work, right.
So then the trick is doing thatwork yourself, and I'm happy to
help give people the tools todo that work.
Jess (16:14):
So, sherman, you're bringing up an example where
it's a very tense situation,right?
So that's probably not theplace you want to start the
practice of learning how to dealwith that.
What would be somerecommendations for people to
help starting the practice nowand maybe in a less tense
situation, so when thosetraumatic ones or things where
(16:36):
you do feel a little bit morestressed, let's say, you might
have an ability to be morelevel-headed?
Shermin Kruse (16:44):
100%, and you're absolutely right.
And the reason I bring up thatexample is that folks can relate
to it and find withinthemselves the capability and
the power, even in the moststressful of circumstances, to
be able to do this.
So, on a much lesser note, and,by the way, any work that you
do, any improvement that youmake, is an improvement.
(17:06):
Right, it's like anything else.
It's like physical exercise orexposure to height.
I'm afraid of heights, so I'mgoing to go up one step and then
I'm going to go up two stepsand I'm going to go up three
steps.
Eventually I'll be able to goup the Empire State Building and
look down and everything isactually.
I personally am not afraid ofheights.
I just jumped off the Andeswith my kids in paraglides, so
(17:29):
it was pretty, pretty epic inColombia, yeah, but I'm afraid
of a bunch of other stuff, youknow.
But we all have our thing.
And so that gradual exposureit's really, really important to
keep in mind.
Just because you are notjumping off the Andes in a
paraglide, it doesn't mean thatyou're not accomplishing what
will eventually be literallyjumping off the Andes in a
paraglide.
(17:49):
And so, to get that exposure,there's a variety of stoic
mechanisms, and this is when wego back to ancient stoicism,
2000 years.
But you guys, it's alsoBuddhist mindfulness, it's also
samurai Japanese warriortraining, is also the breath
techniques that we are taughtduring labor to use during labor
(18:11):
in order to control our pain,right?
It's all kind of part andparcel of the same thing, and it
all comes down to recognizingwhat we can control and then
recognizing what we can'tcontrol, right?
So this is what we call thedichotomy of control.
This is what we can control,this is what we can't control.
Maybe there's some stuff in themiddle here.
What can we control?
(18:33):
And the theory behind cognitivebehavioral therapy, emotional
regulation and stoicism andBuddhist mindfulness, or the
theory behind all of these, isyou can control to a large
extent your emotions, not justthe way you experience them, but
also the way you express them.
And one way of being accustomedto tolerating emotional
(18:58):
discomfort is to expose yourselfto emotional discomfort in
small amounts and habituateyourself to it, right?
So, for example, think about aCEO taking ice baths in the
morning.
I mean, there's tons ofresearch out there about the
benefit of cold plunge therapy,but what's more interesting to
(19:19):
me anyway, is the benefit ofgetting yourself accustomed to
tolerating the uncomfortablecold right.
And for me, that type ofpractice actually furthers my
ability to retain my composureand control in a situation.
Another thing that I've done inthe past, which is also
(19:41):
physical, is this is going tosound really strange, but
fighting have you guys ever done?
Street fighting, physicalfighting?
Jess (19:49):
I did keep up saying, yeah , I've done kickboxing.
I grew up with two brothers, soI did fight them.
Shermin Kruse (19:54):
You know, man, you grew up with two brothers.
You've been hit, you've beenhit.
So if anyone who is listeningwatching this show has ever been
hit in the face, okay, you gethit in the face.
It's extremely discombobulating.
Okay, you are suddenlycompletely disoriented.
But you've got these boxers,man.
(20:15):
They get in the face over andover and over again and their
whole ability, these champions.
They have this ability tomaintain their calm and evaluate
their strategy, their fightingstrategy going forward.
Now, all I want you guys to dois to convert that to an
emotional feeling.
What is it that makes youuncomfortable, right?
(20:36):
For someone like my husband,for example and this is not me
dishing about him, I love him,he's a cool guy, okay, but he's
not super comfortable withvulnerability and he doesn't
like coming face to face withother people's vulnerability it
makes him upset, right.
So, for instance, if we go tothe homeless shelter and cook,
it's much easier for him to juststay in the kitchen, do all the
(20:58):
cooking he's happy to put inthe time, but it's harder for
him to serve the guests and sitwith them and interact with them
and be essentially juxtaposed,sitting neck to neck and serving
someone who is in asignificantly more vulnerable
place in their life, not justfrom a socioeconomic standpoint,
(21:20):
but also from an emotionalpoint of view, than you are.
Right, that feels shitty.
I mean I don't know if I'mallowed to swear on your show
that feels really.
That feels bad.
Okay, it's not a good feeling.
It's why we don't.
We turn away from thesesituations.
Right, it's too much, it's alot, it's a lot to handle.
And some of us experiencecomplete empathy collapse when
(21:40):
we're exposed to thesesituations.
We just can't handle it.
So we stop caring and move onto the next thing, not because
we're monsters, but because it'stoo much, right, too much right
, so, exactly.
So how do we increase ourtolerance to that?
And that doesn't mean againthat we need to go be a trauma
surgeon or work in a refugeecamp, but it does mean that we
(22:02):
should be able to enteruncomfortable conversations with
our war colleagues, familymembers.
Right, folks, we're negotiatingagainst and maintain that
discomfort.
This is a great way.
You're doing a communityservice, you're helping others
and you're exposing yourself tothat level of vulnerability.
Okay, now there are some people.
They have no problem sittingdown next to the homeless
(22:23):
individual and having aconversation with them.
They have no problem.
They think it's wonderful andlovely and they leave feeling
fulfilled and amazing.
What they don't like is being ina confrontational situation
that makes them veryuncomfortable and upset, and
they'll do anything to get outof it right.
(22:44):
Walk away.
Give in to the person.
Anything to get out of it,right, walk away.
Give in to the person, avoidthe situation whatever it might
be, but sometimes you need toconfront these situations.
It's an unfortunate reality oflife that confrontation is
something that must beconfronted, and so these people
can simulate that for themselves, whether it's literally,
(23:06):
through a scripted interactionor a fun debate.
I'm going to choose side A, youchoose side B and we're going to
debate one another for fiveminutes, right, or engaging
someone who is different thanyou or has very different
opinions than you do for a veryshort period of time.
It doesn't have to be anextended conversation, but
whatever it is that you'refinding that confrontation to be
(23:28):
, try to last a little bitlonger and, during the time that
you're lasting, try torationally evaluate what would
make sense for you to do in thissituation, and the answer might
be walk away.
By the way, I'm not saying itis right, but the answer might
be.
Stand your ground and assertyour position, because what if
(23:50):
it's over your salary, or whatif it's over membership benefits
, or what if it's over yourpartnership, or who gets to lead
the team, or whatever the casemight be, or who whose family's
house?
Stand your ground, and then howdo you do that while preserving
that relationship.
I don't want to lose mymarriage because I was too tough
(24:14):
on holiday destinationnegotiations.
You know what I mean.
So I don't want to lose my jobor lose all my friends at work,
because I don't want to be tooconfrontational, but I also
don't want to walk away from aconversation that needs to be
had because it's just too hardfor me.
Jess (24:33):
So, yeah, you still have to be somewhat authentic, and I
think what you bring up is someinteresting things.
We talk about a lot with ourWorkQuesty community is that you
can't walk away from thosedifficult things.
You do have to find a way, andif it's small ways, that's great
.
That's how you kind of willeventually be able to not
necessarily overcome it, but becomfortable in the uncomfortable
(24:56):
is really the way we look at it.
And then the other thing thatyou bring up too, which we do a
lot ourselves, is, once you docommit to having those
conversations and work throughit, it's okay to take a step
back and assess it after, butdon't overdo that right.
Just take your kind ofempathetic approach on your own
self right, like what could Ihave done differently?
(25:16):
And then move forward.
Don't dwell, because that'ssomething we see in our work
bestie communities.
There's a lot of dwelling about, well, I didn't do it right, or
I didn't get it right this timeand now I'll never do it, and
that is worse.
So just give yourself the pausethat you tried it, make the
adjustment and understanding andthen move forward.
Shermin Kruse (25:34):
Yeah, I love that .
Claude, were you going to saysomething?
Claude (25:38):
Yeah, there was also something at some point that you
were saying.
You know, depending on if youare more on the, you have the
upper hand.
Shermin Kruse (25:49):
Yes.
Claude (25:50):
Or actually you're coming as more of the I don't
want to say the weak one, youknow, but on the negotiation
level, Exactly, that's where,like, for example, with your mom
right At the market, if you'relower, you're going to use more
of this cognitive empathy.
Yes.
Shermin Kruse (26:11):
Yes, both of those are spot on.
So first, with respect toJess's point yes, absolutely
don't dwell.
It's perfectly fine to evaluate, as long as you also give
yourself the pat on the back forthe things by the way that you
did right.
Otherwise I don't actually knowhow useful it is.
You have to maintain the thingsyou're doing right and then
improve on the things by the waythat you did right.
Otherwise I don't actually knowhow useful it is.
You have to maintain the thingsyou're doing right and then
(26:31):
improve on the things that youcould have done better.
But there's no point indwelling.
And then with Claude's point,that's absolutely right.
So if you're in a relativelypowerless position in a
negotiation and again innegotiation we've come up with
examples today during thisconversation that have to do
with you know whose house we'regoing to go to for Christmas.
(26:52):
So it doesn't have to be a bignegotiation for you to be
powerless in that particularsituation.
And it's really up to you tomake that determination of like,
how much power do I have?
But the less power you have inthe dynamic right, the more you
should consider at least goingtoward the cognitive empathy end
(27:13):
of the spectrum.
And the reason I say that isthat if you have less bargaining
power, you're already in aposition where the emotional
aspects are potentiallyinterfering in the way you are
negotiating.
And what's worse than that isthe emotional aspects I mean in
(27:36):
terms of your emotional aspects,they could be slowing down how
the other person, the personwith more power in the
relationship, is emotionallyrelating to you.
So, for instance, what my momand I wanted from the guard is
we didn't want to emotionally,we didn't want to feel sorry for
the guard.
It would not have served us inthat scenario.
(27:57):
Now we could have anintellectual discussion about
what it's like to work for adictatorial state as an employee
and the negative aspects ofthat, but in that moment, when
you're faced with the option ofjail or worse for you and your
child, that's really not whatyou want to be thinking about.
You want to be thinking abouthey, why is this person so
(28:17):
frustrated?
And what can I say that will beeffective with this person,
given their feelings and wherethey are today?
What can I say that will beeffective with them in getting
me out of trouble?
That's what you want to befocused on, right?
But also, what can I say tomake them connect with me on an
(28:38):
emotional level, right?
So, even though I'm notconnecting with them, what am I
saying?
What am I doing that is helpingthem connect with me, right?
So they're aligning themselvesemotionally with my interests,
even though they perceived thosetwo things to be completely
distinct a minute ago, and thatcognitive detachment really
(29:01):
allows you to engage in thatanalysis on a much deeper level.
But if you're in the same powerposition or if you have a
long-term relationship with thisindividual and you start to
coldly evaluate what theirmotivations, thoughts and
(29:21):
feelings are for the purpose ofmanipulating them to doing what
you want them to do, withoutemotionally caring about their
best interests, that is going tobe harmful to you, to your
overall relationship, and okay,maybe you'll, you'll win that
battle, but you'll lose the war,you will.
You will completely be leadingyour life in a way, at least,
(29:42):
that I don't now.
That's a way of doing thingsright, people do it.
Claude (29:46):
You would go more to the emotional part.
Shermin Kruse (29:49):
For the emotional right.
So it's sort of the spectrum isthe more more interconnected you
are, the more you have along-term relationship where you
want a long-term relationship,and the more even your power is,
or let's say your powerposition is, superior to that
person, the more you can giveyourself the freedom and
flexibility to engage in thatemotional connection.
And the less power you have andless likely you have of an
(30:16):
ongoing relationship or desirefor an ongoing relationship.
One time encounter in thestreet or in the marketplace,
right or hostile takeover ofyour company or random person on
the street looking to assaultyou I mean, there's a lot of
examples here the more you wantto quickly and somewhat more
coldly evaluate the wants,interests, needs of this person,
while controlling your ownemotional state, but getting
(30:38):
them to align themselves withyou so that you can succeed in
that situation, whether yourmotivations are to buy a rug for
a cheaper price at a Persianbazaar, or whether your
motivations are to escape fromthe bad guy on the street, or
there's a million work contextsas well, right, right.
Claude (30:56):
I think that, like you were saying at the beginning,
you know it's, we might do itwithout thinking about it, but
really put into words.
That's where you can evenreally make it better and be
stronger in your negotiationright, because it's now you have
(31:18):
this stoic empathy and thiswhole learning that you can
apply a lot more.
And this whole learning thatyou can apply a lot more, and by
giving those examples, I thinkit really helps with our
audience.
You know which one do you needto navigate for which situation?
Shermin Kruse (31:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the other thing I want totell your audience is you guys
are already doing this, so thiswork is just about being more
intentional about it.
That is all it is, and you canabsolutely do this and you can
improve a little bit every day.
And getting back to Jess's pointabout not dwelling on the past,
one of the things we want to doif we are working on improving
our stoic empathy capabilitiesor even just our stoicism
(31:59):
capabilities, but also ourempathy capabilities separately
is trying to take a moment atthe end of every day to reflect
on the day and reflect on thegratitude we feel for the day,
reflect on the fact that it'snot over, that we have a
tomorrow, right, and reallythink about what is it that I
could improve on tomorrow, butalso what is it that I am
(32:24):
grateful for today.
As long as you're engaging inthat analysis in a balanced way,
you can leave that analysisempowered, as opposed to further
weakened because you negativeself-talked yourself to death.
Right, you want to leave thatanalysis feeling strong and
maybe with a little bit moreinformation than you had before
(32:45):
you went in, and then knowingthat that information is power,
that you are now more powerfulthan you were a minute ago, even
though you just criticallyevaluated something that you did
.
Jess (32:57):
That's a great call to attention to our Workvesty
community out there.
I love that.
That's something that I tend todo.
I wake up early in the morningand that's like my 15 to 30
minutes to myself where Ireflect, I try to meditate and
do stuff, that I go back andgive myself gratitude.
So I love that idea foreveryone else out there.
I have one more question foryou that I think will also help
our WorkBestie community.
(33:19):
Go for it.
And that is this is a whopper ofa question.
Okay, what's that one sentenceor thing you can do in a
negotiation, whether it's withyour boss, whether it's with
your team, maybe even with yourwork bestie, that will instantly
shift that power dynamic backinto your favor?
Shermin Kruse (33:39):
The one thing that you can do that will
increase your power in therelationship I don't know if you
can shift it entirely, itdepends on the interaction I'm
not prone to hyperbole as anauthor is invite collaboration
rather than confrontation.
So earlier we talked about howwe need to be confronting our
(34:00):
discomfort with confrontationright, but what I'm saying now
is, if you invite collaborationrather than confrontation, that
makes you appear both confidentand open-minded.
Keep in mind, you guys, withthis invitation goes a
recognition from you of thereality of the situation.
(34:21):
What you are inviting from theother doesn't signify an
ignorance on your part as towhat actually is happening.
But when you invite thatcollaboration from the
individual across from you, youmotivate them to work with you
instead of against you, and youmake them empathize with you.
(34:42):
And that is where the powershift begins to take place.
Jess (34:47):
So true.
Yes, you know I'm a big fan ofcollaboration, so that could not
be more beautifully stated Ijust like to get a little bit of
the answer.
Shermin Kruse (34:55):
It's like it's a teacher's pet.
Jess (35:01):
Yes, sherman, you know us well, way too well already.
Yeah, sherman, you know us well, way too well already.
We did want to ask you thequestion of where can people
find you and learn more aboutyou, and is there any new news
that we might want to share?
Shermin Kruse (35:13):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Okay, so here's the news my newbook, stoic Empathy, comes out
April 8.
It should be available prettymuch everywhere, so if you have
a favorite local bookstore thatyou prefer to shop from, just
ask for it there.
If they don't have it in stock,they'll get it for you, and I
would love for you guys to takea look at that.
(35:33):
I should also add the audiobook, for Stoic Empathy has 10
extra tracks of exercises,meditations and things like that
, and so feel free to get boththe hard copy and the audio.
And you can find me.
I am pretty prevalent, so it'spretty easy to find me.
But the easiest place is mywebsite, which is my incredibly
difficult namecom, so it'swwwsherminkruzecom.
(35:57):
Feel free to check me out there.
You can join my newsletterthere.
Also, get back to every singleperson who messages me on
LinkedIn.
I will say sometimes it takes afew days or a week or two, but
I do try to get back to everysingle person.
So far I've been able tomaintain it.
So if you have any questions orfollow-up comments or want to
(36:17):
reach out, feel free to find methere as well, or just Google
Stoic Empathy.
I should pop up.
Jess (36:24):
Yes, and we will put all of that in our show notes for
everybody listening, of course.
Claude (36:29):
But thank you so much, shemin, and we learned so much
about stoic empathy.
We really loved it and you knowwork best out there.
It's your turn.
Start using this awesome methodand, of course, don't forget
the book Stoic Empathy method.
(36:50):
And of course, don't forget thebook Stoic Empathy.
And if you loved as much as weloved this show, please make
sure to share with your work,bestie, or with your loved ones,
and click subscribe and likeand thank you very much.
See you next week.
Jess (37:03):
thank you, charm.
See you next week.
Thank you, charmaine.
Thank you, charmaine.
Thank you bye.
It's a pleasure, remember,whether you're swapping snacks
in the break room, rescuing eachother from endless meetings or
just sending that perfectlytimed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (37:19):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
Hello and welcome WorkBesties.
What if the key to handling theworkplace stress, the difficult
coworkers and yourhigh-pressure situations wasn't
just about empathy or logic, butmastering both?
I know that seems confusing,right, but it's not.
So.
We're so excited today to haveSherman Cruz on our podcast.
(00:22):
Sherman Cruz is globallyrecognized as a negotiation
consultant, a law professorauthor and a recognized TED Talk
producer.
If you have not watched her TEDTalks, we highly recommend it
because they are amazing.
She is very transformative inwork and empathy, stoicism and
complex negotiations.
(00:43):
She's influenced audiences fromall levels, from corporate
boardrooms to universityclassrooms.
To us.
Shermin Kruse (00:51):
Sharing Bechamel recipes right.
Jess (00:54):
We'll explain that later.
Stay with us, because by theend of this episode, you
yourself, work besties are goingto hear directly from the
source.
What's that?
One sentence that you can saythat will instantly shift the
power dynamic into your favor.
You're not going to want tomiss it.
Hi, I'm Claude, and I'm Jess.
Claude (01:14):
We are corporate employees by day, entrepreneurs
by night and work besties forlife.
Jess (01:20):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties.
Welcome, Sherman.
We're so excited to have you.
Shermin Kruse (01:35):
Thank you so much .
I am so excited to be here andI have to say that you guys are
making me really miss my formerwork bestie.
We haven't worked together fora few years but I miss her so
much.
Her name is Chris, and alsoClaude.
You also look a lot like myhigh school bestie.
Her name is Shana A lot.
(01:57):
And the second.
I saw your photo I thought mygosh.
I feel a spiritual connectionto this amazing French person.
Claude (02:07):
She's going to start crying.
Now I'm going to say I'm sorry,I'm Charmaine's bestie.
Yeah, very close.
Shermin Kruse (02:14):
Yeah, I'll take Claude for Shaina.
Jess (02:18):
Thanks, I didn't know, it was so easily replaceable.
Shermin Kruse (02:21):
It's only for a minute.
Jess (02:23):
Charmaine, why don't you tell us a little bit about who
you are?
Shermin Kruse (02:26):
Okay, sure, it is so amazing to be here.
Thank you so much for having meon.
It's such a privilege and apleasure and I love this show
and I loved prepping for thisappearance because I love the
dynamics between you two, and somuch of the dynamic between the
two of you, jess and Claude, iswhat I would really love to
talk to you about today, andreally what that is is the work
(02:49):
I've been interested in myentire life really, since I was
a child in Iran, throughout myyears of debating in high school
and then studying in universityand law school and then
practicing law and now teachinglaw.
I've been fascinated by thisconflict between the internal
and the external, and I've heardyou guys talk about this so
(03:10):
much, for instance, in thecontext of wellness and this
balance that you find right,this conflict that can also
present itself as a balance,this idea of being healthy
emotionally and able to regulateand control your own feelings
and your own approach to aparticular situation, while
(03:30):
still having deep awareness ofthe people you're around, so
that you can develop thoselong-term relationships with
them and build on them, because,at the end of the day, that is
what brings life meaning.
It's also what helps you gaininfluence and control and power
in a particular situation.
(03:50):
So I've actually seen the two ofyou master that so beautifully
in your relationship with oneanother.
You're so each authenticallyyourselves and yet you are still
so deeply connected to oneanother.
And that's really the work thatI'm interested in.
If I were to apply it to theworkplace, then it would
(04:12):
literally be in the context ofhow do you master emotional
regulation in tense situations,or how do you navigate office
politics, or how do you receiveand give recovery or feedback
and handle difficult colleagues,etc.
Etc.
And that is where my method ofstoic empathy comes in.
It essentially captures whatyou two have already mastered in
(04:35):
your interactions with oneanother in two simple words
right stoicism, which is theemotional regulation piece,
which is control over yourself,and empathy, which is the
awareness piece, awareness ofthe other, which is also a means
of gaining influence over theother, thereby gaining influence
over yourself and the other inthe process of building and
(05:00):
fusing those amazingrelationships together that last
a lifetime.
Jess (05:04):
Wow, that is amazing and I appreciate you recognizing what
we put into this, because it'sfun, for sure, but it is also a
lot of learning, as we reallyrespect each other.
And the thing that you talkabout really well is how.
Yes, there are going to benegotiations where you both try
and call it win if you want, butat the end of the day,
(05:24):
leveraging empathy will help, nomatter what.
Yes, there are going to benegotiations where you both try
and call it win if you want, butat the end of the day,
leveraging empathy will help, nomatter what, even if, in some
sort of situations, one of ushas to give more than the other.
It's a showing of understandingwithout you're providing an
understanding of where they'recoming from Not necessarily
(05:47):
feeling their emotions, which isabout distinct difference that
you talk to.
That I had not really heard inany other business class that
I've ever been in.
Claude (05:51):
Can you explain a little bit more to our audience?
It's so incredible when I wasresearching you like this
empathy that you have two kindsof empathy and how do you use
them, depending on the situation.
I love it.
Shermin Kruse (06:05):
So, you guys, what Jess and Claude are talking
about Work Bestie audience isthis understanding by
psychologists that empathy isreally divided into two parts.
And I'm going to start bysaying it's divided into two
parts and then I'm going to endby saying it's actually not
divided into two parts at all.
So please bear with me.
So it's divided into two parts,right.
On the one end you have thecognitive, cognitive empathy and
(06:28):
on the other end, you have theemotional.
The emotional empathy is howmost of us understand and
experience empathy on a dailybasis.
So, emotional empathy and, bythe way, no matter how cold
hearted you are, you haveexperienced emotional empathy in
, for instance, the followingcircumstance you are watching
(06:50):
your favorite television show,right?
Your favorite character in yourfavorite TV show has just had
this amazing thing happen tothem after a season of
difficulties.
They get in their car andthey're driving and happy, music
is playing and the sun isshining.
They look down at their phonebecause they receive a text
message and suddenly you knowthat this is going to be a
disaster.
The music shifts, a car t-bonesthem, their car swerves out of
(07:13):
control, the glass shatters.
What do you do?
You recoil.
And what's incredible about.
That is, the glass isn'tcutting your skin.
Nothing has happened to you.
It has happened to someone else, and, in fact, not even to a
real person, but to a fictionalcharacter on a television
program, but one that you'vegotten attached to.
So this is emotional empathy.
(07:33):
The idea is your pain in myheart, right?
I don't feel the kind of painthat I would feel if glass was
cutting my skin, but I feel painin response to your pain.
That's emotional empathy, right?
So then, of course, translatethat into really meaningful
real-life situations, as opposedto fictional interactions, and
think about how incrediblypowerful that type of connection
can be Over.
(07:54):
Here, we have something verydifferent we have cognitive
empathy.
With cognitive empathy, it'smore like I'm not walking in
your shoes, but I'm sinking mysteps to your steps, so I'm able
to see where you walk, when youpause, what you hear, right,
what it feels like, how cold itis.
I'm able to experience yourexperiences without feeling your
(08:18):
emotions.
A really great example of thisis one that, in fact, I give in
one of my TEDx talks, which ismy mom and I, when I was a kid
in Iran, encountered a member ofthe morality police when we
were on the street in Tehran.
I wasn't covered up properlyWith that guard.
We were in serious trouble andwe had no power at all, but we
(08:38):
didn't necessarily want to befeeling what the guard is
feeling.
So we could develop a long termrelationship with this guard,
right, we just wanted tounderstand where she's coming
from so that we could get out ofbeing in trouble, and that was
what our ethic required us.
But it's not just that.
It's not just when you meet aperceived enemy or encounter
(08:58):
someone who is hostile towardsyou.
It's also trauma surgeon, right, or counselor working at a
refugee camp encounteringvictims of mass rape, right.
These individuals, in order tohelp the person whom they are
working to heal and I know youguys are doing a whole thing
about wellness in 2025, in orderto help the person that they
(09:22):
are looking to heal, they needto maintain a certain amount of
objectivity and emotionaldistance.
Or, if they were to experiencethis person's feelings, they too
would be so traumatized theymight not be able to help them
anymore or help anyone else, andso they literally would be
ineffective at doing the workthat the other person requires
them to do.
(09:42):
If they were feeling everythingthey were feeling.
So remember, in the beginning wesaid that we say there's two
parts, but there really isn'ttwo parts.
Okay, so this is where therereally isn't two parts.
Unless you are a psychopath,you are never going to
experience pure cognitiveempathy without any emotional
connection at all.
(10:02):
Right, it's just not human.
Once you start to understandthe other person, you start to
experience an emotional reactionof sorts.
So it's really more of aspectrum how much of this versus
how much of this, depending onthe situation.
Not just so I can serve myselfme and my mom getting out of
getting in trouble with themorality guard but also so we
(10:25):
can serve others trauma surgeonversus this, your child, your
husband, your integrated merger,where you want to have a
long-term relationship with thecompany that you are merging
with so that you can worktogether and be productive in
the future.
So this is a spectrum.
There's some things that aregoing to be closer to here, some
things that are going to becloser to here, but most of it
(10:48):
is going to be in the middle.
Really, the goal in the workthat I do is helping you gain
the control that you need in anygiven situation so that you can
decide where on the spectrumyou want to be, which is
situation dependent, and evenwithin a particular context or
situation, you might feel oneway at the beginning of the
conversation and somethingtotally different at the end of
(11:08):
the conversation or toward themiddle of the conversation, and
then modulate your level ofemotional connection while
maintaining that cognitiveempathy the entire time and
reaping the benefits of it.
So that's really the goal of thework is how do I get better at
understanding the spectrum,because you all already have
done it, you've done it amillion times.
(11:29):
You're all already thinking ofexamples of times where you've
done things like this, right,but how do I get better at
recognizing what is it that I'mdoing so that I can be more
intentional about it, so thattimes when I shut myself off way
too quickly when I shouldn'tright, or times when I get
attached when I really shouldn'tto serve myself, to serve
(11:49):
others, to serve my community,to be true to who I am how do I
grasp this so I can be moreintentional?
And then, how do I actually doit?
How do I get to here?
What if I'm someone who just isalways here?
I'm always here.
I could never be a traumasurgeon.
Claude (12:04):
So you were saying you know about those empathy, but
when do you know which one youshould go more in the emotional
and then which one more in thecognitive?
Shermin Kruse (12:16):
That's such a great question, by the way,
claude, and it is difficult toknow, and sometimes you get it
wrong, which is exactly whybeing able to shift is so
important, because, as you mighthave the incorrect information,
you might go into a situationfully trusting, ready to connect
emotionally, and then you gainaccess to information that tells
you, you know, red alert, redalert, red alert.
(12:38):
I'm going to need to adjust theway I'm connecting to this
person, but I'm not ready toterminate the relationship, but
I want to adjust the way I'mconnecting to this person, but
I'm not ready to terminate therelationship, but I want to
adjust the way I'm connecting tothem.
And and then I go along myspectrum.
So so one of the answers toyour question is you might not
know when you step in, andthat's why it's so important to
be able to transition as youmove through.
But to answer your questionmore directly, let me give you a
(13:01):
couple of examples, a reallygood one.
I know the three of us are moms.
I know not everybody thatwatches this show is a parent,
but probably a lot of you have,at one point or another, been
responsible for someone morevulnerable than yourself.
Now, whether you're a leader,leading a team in a workplace
setting, or you are a parentresponsible for your children,
so you'll relate to this story.
(13:23):
I was at home.
This was about 10 years ago.
My kids were still quite youngand I had four, four and under.
I might be getting some ofthose ages wrong because I'm old
and my memory is going, but Ihad a bunch of young kids at
home.
They were young.
They were young, they werelittle, and there was a lot of
them.
And so I get a phone call andthe call is traumatic.
(13:45):
There's traumatic news beingconveyed on the telephone.
I'm in the middle of motheringmy children.
Now, if I was all alone, thelevel of freedom that I would
have to express my emotions inthat moment would be
fundamentally different than thefact that I wasn't alone and I
(14:06):
was with people who werevulnerable, than the fact that I
wasn't alone and I was withpeople who were vulnerable.
And if I were to behave in away that would traumatize my
kids, I would be making analready difficult situation
worse right.
So suddenly, my ability toabsorb this traumatic
information and manage it in acontrolled manner began to
exceed my own wildestexpectations, precisely because
(14:29):
of my empathic understanding ofthe needs of those more
vulnerable than me my children,who are in the room, right, it's
like what CEOs did during COVID, and it doesn't mean that you
display a lack of authenticityor a lack of vulnerability.
Even in that moment, you couldtell your kids mommy just got
some really bad news, I justneed a minute to drink some
water or something like that.
(14:49):
You can still be honest, youcan still reveal your
vulnerability, but you'recertainly not going to react
emotionally the way that youmight have if they weren't there
.
You find this power within you,this sense of control.
That's almost superhero-esque,right?
We see people be capable of thisIn a physical form.
(15:11):
It might be lifting a carbecause your kid's under it.
This is the emotional versionof it, right, and what we want
to do is we want to take thatcapability, which everybody
already has, and we want to makeit more intentional, and then
we want to try very hard not tojudge, because it isn't up to me
to tell you how emotionallyconnected you need to be in a
particular situation.
(15:32):
This is work that you need todo for yourself, and I can help
you get there by helping you askthe right questions, pause,
evaluate the situation, teachingyou tricks on how to be able to
tolerate discomfort so that youcould properly evaluate that
situation.
But at the end of the day, it'snot up to me to tell you that,
(15:52):
and different people strugglewith different things.
Some people automatically getoverly emotional, some people
shut down, and you've met bothtypes right and you could
probably tell them where theycould use some work, right.
So then the trick is doing thatwork yourself, and I'm happy to
help give people the tools todo that work.
Jess (16:14):
So, sherman, you're bringing up an example where
it's a very tense situation,right?
So that's probably not theplace you want to start the
practice of learning how to dealwith that.
What would be somerecommendations for people to
help starting the practice nowand maybe in a less tense
situation, so when thosetraumatic ones or things where
(16:36):
you do feel a little bit morestressed, let's say, you might
have an ability to be morelevel-headed?
Shermin Kruse (16:44):
100%, and you're absolutely right.
And the reason I bring up thatexample is that folks can relate
to it and find withinthemselves the capability and
the power, even in the moststressful of circumstances, to
be able to do this.
So, on a much lesser note, and,by the way, any work that you
do, any improvement that youmake, is an improvement.
(17:06):
Right, it's like anything else.
It's like physical exercise orexposure to height.
I'm afraid of heights, so I'mgoing to go up one step and then
I'm going to go up two stepsand I'm going to go up three
steps.
Eventually I'll be able to goup the Empire State Building and
look down and everything isactually.
I personally am not afraid ofheights.
I just jumped off the Andeswith my kids in paraglides, so
(17:29):
it was pretty, pretty epic inColombia, yeah, but I'm afraid
of a bunch of other stuff, youknow.
But we all have our thing.
And so that gradual exposureit's really, really important to
keep in mind.
Just because you are notjumping off the Andes in a
paraglide, it doesn't mean thatyou're not accomplishing what
will eventually be literallyjumping off the Andes in a
paraglide.
(17:49):
And so, to get that exposure,there's a variety of stoic
mechanisms, and this is when wego back to ancient stoicism,
2000 years.
But you guys, it's alsoBuddhist mindfulness, it's also
samurai Japanese warriortraining, is also the breath
techniques that we are taughtduring labor to use during labor
(18:11):
in order to control our pain,right?
It's all kind of part andparcel of the same thing, and it
all comes down to recognizingwhat we can control and then
recognizing what we can'tcontrol, right?
So this is what we call thedichotomy of control.
This is what we can control,this is what we can't control.
Maybe there's some stuff in themiddle here.
What can we control?
(18:33):
And the theory behind cognitivebehavioral therapy, emotional
regulation and stoicism andBuddhist mindfulness, or the
theory behind all of these, isyou can control to a large
extent your emotions, not justthe way you experience them, but
also the way you express them.
And one way of being accustomedto tolerating emotional
(18:58):
discomfort is to expose yourselfto emotional discomfort in
small amounts and habituateyourself to it, right?
So, for example, think about aCEO taking ice baths in the
morning.
I mean, there's tons ofresearch out there about the
benefit of cold plunge therapy,but what's more interesting to
(19:19):
me anyway, is the benefit ofgetting yourself accustomed to
tolerating the uncomfortablecold right.
And for me, that type ofpractice actually furthers my
ability to retain my composureand control in a situation.
Another thing that I've done inthe past, which is also
(19:41):
physical, is this is going tosound really strange, but
fighting have you guys ever done?
Street fighting, physicalfighting?
Jess (19:49):
I did keep up saying, yeah , I've done kickboxing.
I grew up with two brothers, soI did fight them.
Shermin Kruse (19:54):
You know, man, you grew up with two brothers.
You've been hit, you've beenhit.
So if anyone who is listeningwatching this show has ever been
hit in the face, okay, you gethit in the face.
It's extremely discombobulating.
Okay, you are suddenlycompletely disoriented.
But you've got these boxers,man.
(20:15):
They get in the face over andover and over again and their
whole ability, these champions.
They have this ability tomaintain their calm and evaluate
their strategy, their fightingstrategy going forward.
Now, all I want you guys to dois to convert that to an
emotional feeling.
What is it that makes youuncomfortable, right?
(20:36):
For someone like my husband,for example and this is not me
dishing about him, I love him,he's a cool guy, okay, but he's
not super comfortable withvulnerability and he doesn't
like coming face to face withother people's vulnerability it
makes him upset, right.
So, for instance, if we go tothe homeless shelter and cook,
it's much easier for him to juststay in the kitchen, do all the
(20:58):
cooking he's happy to put inthe time, but it's harder for
him to serve the guests and sitwith them and interact with them
and be essentially juxtaposed,sitting neck to neck and serving
someone who is in asignificantly more vulnerable
place in their life, not justfrom a socioeconomic standpoint,
(21:20):
but also from an emotionalpoint of view, than you are.
Right, that feels shitty.
I mean I don't know if I'mallowed to swear on your show
that feels really.
That feels bad.
Okay, it's not a good feeling.
It's why we don't.
We turn away from thesesituations.
Right, it's too much, it's alot, it's a lot to handle.
And some of us experiencecomplete empathy collapse when
(21:40):
we're exposed to thesesituations.
We just can't handle it.
So we stop caring and move onto the next thing, not because
we're monsters, but because it'stoo much, right, too much right
, so, exactly.
So how do we increase ourtolerance to that?
And that doesn't mean againthat we need to go be a trauma
surgeon or work in a refugeecamp, but it does mean that we
(22:02):
should be able to enteruncomfortable conversations with
our war colleagues, familymembers.
Right, folks, we're negotiatingagainst and maintain that
discomfort.
This is a great way.
You're doing a communityservice, you're helping others
and you're exposing yourself tothat level of vulnerability.
Okay, now there are some people.
They have no problem sittingdown next to the homeless
(22:23):
individual and having aconversation with them.
They have no problem.
They think it's wonderful andlovely and they leave feeling
fulfilled and amazing.
What they don't like is being ina confrontational situation
that makes them veryuncomfortable and upset, and
they'll do anything to get outof it right.
(22:44):
Walk away.
Give in to the person.
Anything to get out of it,right, walk away.
Give in to the person, avoidthe situation whatever it might
be, but sometimes you need toconfront these situations.
It's an unfortunate reality oflife that confrontation is
something that must beconfronted, and so these people
can simulate that for themselves, whether it's literally,
(23:06):
through a scripted interactionor a fun debate.
I'm going to choose side A, youchoose side B and we're going to
debate one another for fiveminutes, right, or engaging
someone who is different thanyou or has very different
opinions than you do for a veryshort period of time.
It doesn't have to be anextended conversation, but
whatever it is that you'refinding that confrontation to be
(23:28):
, try to last a little bitlonger and, during the time that
you're lasting, try torationally evaluate what would
make sense for you to do in thissituation, and the answer might
be walk away.
By the way, I'm not saying itis right, but the answer might
be.
Stand your ground and assertyour position, because what if
(23:50):
it's over your salary, or whatif it's over membership benefits
, or what if it's over yourpartnership, or who gets to lead
the team, or whatever the casemight be, or who whose family's
house?
Stand your ground, and then howdo you do that while preserving
that relationship.
I don't want to lose mymarriage because I was too tough
(24:14):
on holiday destinationnegotiations.
You know what I mean.
So I don't want to lose my jobor lose all my friends at work,
because I don't want to be tooconfrontational, but I also
don't want to walk away from aconversation that needs to be
had because it's just too hardfor me.
Jess (24:33):
So, yeah, you still have to be somewhat authentic, and I
think what you bring up is someinteresting things.
We talk about a lot with ourWorkQuesty community is that you
can't walk away from thosedifficult things.
You do have to find a way, andif it's small ways, that's great
.
That's how you kind of willeventually be able to not
necessarily overcome it, but becomfortable in the uncomfortable
(24:56):
is really the way we look at it.
And then the other thing thatyou bring up too, which we do a
lot ourselves, is, once you docommit to having those
conversations and work throughit, it's okay to take a step
back and assess it after, butdon't overdo that right.
Just take your kind ofempathetic approach on your own
self right, like what could Ihave done differently?
(25:16):
And then move forward.
Don't dwell, because that'ssomething we see in our work
bestie communities.
There's a lot of dwelling about, well, I didn't do it right, or
I didn't get it right this timeand now I'll never do it, and
that is worse.
So just give yourself the pausethat you tried it, make the
adjustment and understanding andthen move forward.
Shermin Kruse (25:34):
Yeah, I love that .
Claude, were you going to saysomething?
Claude (25:38):
Yeah, there was also something at some point that you
were saying.
You know, depending on if youare more on the, you have the
upper hand.
Shermin Kruse (25:49):
Yes.
Claude (25:50):
Or actually you're coming as more of the I don't
want to say the weak one, youknow, but on the negotiation
level, Exactly, that's where,like, for example, with your mom
right At the market, if you'relower, you're going to use more
of this cognitive empathy.
Yes.
Shermin Kruse (26:11):
Yes, both of those are spot on.
So first, with respect toJess's point yes, absolutely
don't dwell.
It's perfectly fine to evaluate, as long as you also give
yourself the pat on the back forthe things by the way that you
did right.
Otherwise I don't actually knowhow useful it is.
You have to maintain the thingsyou're doing right and then
improve on the things by the waythat you did right.
Otherwise I don't actually knowhow useful it is.
You have to maintain the thingsyou're doing right and then
(26:31):
improve on the things that youcould have done better.
But there's no point indwelling.
And then with Claude's point,that's absolutely right.
So if you're in a relativelypowerless position in a
negotiation and again innegotiation we've come up with
examples today during thisconversation that have to do
with you know whose house we'regoing to go to for Christmas.
(26:52):
So it doesn't have to be a bignegotiation for you to be
powerless in that particularsituation.
And it's really up to you tomake that determination of like,
how much power do I have?
But the less power you have inthe dynamic right, the more you
should consider at least goingtoward the cognitive empathy end
(27:13):
of the spectrum.
And the reason I say that isthat if you have less bargaining
power, you're already in aposition where the emotional
aspects are potentiallyinterfering in the way you are
negotiating.
And what's worse than that isthe emotional aspects I mean in
(27:36):
terms of your emotional aspects,they could be slowing down how
the other person, the personwith more power in the
relationship, is emotionallyrelating to you.
So, for instance, what my momand I wanted from the guard is
we didn't want to emotionally,we didn't want to feel sorry for
the guard.
It would not have served us inthat scenario.
(27:57):
Now we could have anintellectual discussion about
what it's like to work for adictatorial state as an employee
and the negative aspects ofthat, but in that moment, when
you're faced with the option ofjail or worse for you and your
child, that's really not whatyou want to be thinking about.
You want to be thinking abouthey, why is this person so
(28:17):
frustrated?
And what can I say that will beeffective with this person,
given their feelings and wherethey are today?
What can I say that will beeffective with them in getting
me out of trouble?
That's what you want to befocused on, right?
But also, what can I say tomake them connect with me on an
(28:38):
emotional level, right?
So, even though I'm notconnecting with them, what am I
saying?
What am I doing that is helpingthem connect with me, right?
So they're aligning themselvesemotionally with my interests,
even though they perceived thosetwo things to be completely
distinct a minute ago, and thatcognitive detachment really
(29:01):
allows you to engage in thatanalysis on a much deeper level.
But if you're in the same powerposition or if you have a
long-term relationship with thisindividual and you start to
coldly evaluate what theirmotivations, thoughts and
(29:21):
feelings are for the purpose ofmanipulating them to doing what
you want them to do, withoutemotionally caring about their
best interests, that is going tobe harmful to you, to your
overall relationship, and okay,maybe you'll, you'll win that
battle, but you'll lose the war,you will.
You will completely be leadingyour life in a way, at least,
(29:42):
that I don't now.
That's a way of doing thingsright, people do it.
Claude (29:46):
You would go more to the emotional part.
Shermin Kruse (29:49):
For the emotional right.
So it's sort of the spectrum isthe more more interconnected you
are, the more you have along-term relationship where you
want a long-term relationship,and the more even your power is,
or let's say your powerposition is, superior to that
person, the more you can giveyourself the freedom and
flexibility to engage in thatemotional connection.
And the less power you have andless likely you have of an
(30:16):
ongoing relationship or desirefor an ongoing relationship.
One time encounter in thestreet or in the marketplace,
right or hostile takeover ofyour company or random person on
the street looking to assaultyou I mean, there's a lot of
examples here the more you wantto quickly and somewhat more
coldly evaluate the wants,interests, needs of this person,
while controlling your ownemotional state, but getting
(30:38):
them to align themselves withyou so that you can succeed in
that situation, whether yourmotivations are to buy a rug for
a cheaper price at a Persianbazaar, or whether your
motivations are to escape fromthe bad guy on the street, or
there's a million work contextsas well, right, right.
Claude (30:56):
I think that, like you were saying at the beginning,
you know it's, we might do itwithout thinking about it, but
really put into words.
That's where you can evenreally make it better and be
stronger in your negotiationright, because it's now you have
(31:18):
this stoic empathy and thiswhole learning that you can
apply a lot more.
And this whole learning thatyou can apply a lot more, and by
giving those examples, I thinkit really helps with our
audience.
You know which one do you needto navigate for which situation?
Shermin Kruse (31:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the other thing I want totell your audience is you guys
are already doing this, so thiswork is just about being more
intentional about it.
That is all it is, and you canabsolutely do this and you can
improve a little bit every day.
And getting back to Jess's pointabout not dwelling on the past,
one of the things we want to doif we are working on improving
our stoic empathy capabilitiesor even just our stoicism
(31:59):
capabilities, but also ourempathy capabilities separately
is trying to take a moment atthe end of every day to reflect
on the day and reflect on thegratitude we feel for the day,
reflect on the fact that it'snot over, that we have a
tomorrow, right, and reallythink about what is it that I
could improve on tomorrow, butalso what is it that I am
(32:24):
grateful for today.
As long as you're engaging inthat analysis in a balanced way,
you can leave that analysisempowered, as opposed to further
weakened because you negativeself-talked yourself to death.
Right, you want to leave thatanalysis feeling strong and
maybe with a little bit moreinformation than you had before
(32:45):
you went in, and then knowingthat that information is power,
that you are now more powerfulthan you were a minute ago, even
though you just criticallyevaluated something that you did
.
Jess (32:57):
That's a great call to attention to our Workvesty
community out there.
I love that.
That's something that I tend todo.
I wake up early in the morningand that's like my 15 to 30
minutes to myself where Ireflect, I try to meditate and
do stuff, that I go back andgive myself gratitude.
So I love that idea foreveryone else out there.
I have one more question foryou that I think will also help
our WorkBestie community.
(33:19):
Go for it.
And that is this is a whopper ofa question.
Okay, what's that one sentenceor thing you can do in a
negotiation, whether it's withyour boss, whether it's with
your team, maybe even with yourwork bestie, that will instantly
shift that power dynamic backinto your favor?
Shermin Kruse (33:39):
The one thing that you can do that will
increase your power in therelationship I don't know if you
can shift it entirely, itdepends on the interaction I'm
not prone to hyperbole as anauthor is invite collaboration
rather than confrontation.
So earlier we talked about howwe need to be confronting our
(34:00):
discomfort with confrontationright, but what I'm saying now
is, if you invite collaborationrather than confrontation, that
makes you appear both confidentand open-minded.
Keep in mind, you guys, withthis invitation goes a
recognition from you of thereality of the situation.
(34:21):
What you are inviting from theother doesn't signify an
ignorance on your part as towhat actually is happening.
But when you invite thatcollaboration from the
individual across from you, youmotivate them to work with you
instead of against you, and youmake them empathize with you.
(34:42):
And that is where the powershift begins to take place.
Jess (34:47):
So true.
Yes, you know I'm a big fan ofcollaboration, so that could not
be more beautifully stated Ijust like to get a little bit of
the answer.
Shermin Kruse (34:55):
It's like it's a teacher's pet.
Jess (35:01):
Yes, sherman, you know us well, way too well already.
Yeah, sherman, you know us well, way too well already.
We did want to ask you thequestion of where can people
find you and learn more aboutyou, and is there any new news
that we might want to share?
Shermin Kruse (35:13):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Okay, so here's the news my newbook, stoic Empathy, comes out
April 8.
It should be available prettymuch everywhere, so if you have
a favorite local bookstore thatyou prefer to shop from, just
ask for it there.
If they don't have it in stock,they'll get it for you, and I
would love for you guys to takea look at that.
(35:33):
I should also add the audiobook, for Stoic Empathy has 10
extra tracks of exercises,meditations and things like that
, and so feel free to get boththe hard copy and the audio.
And you can find me.
I am pretty prevalent, so it'spretty easy to find me.
But the easiest place is mywebsite, which is my incredibly
difficult namecom, so it'swwwsherminkruzecom.
(35:57):
Feel free to check me out there.
You can join my newsletterthere.
Also, get back to every singleperson who messages me on
LinkedIn.
I will say sometimes it takes afew days or a week or two, but
I do try to get back to everysingle person.
So far I've been able tomaintain it.
So if you have any questions orfollow-up comments or want to
(36:17):
reach out, feel free to find methere as well, or just Google
Stoic Empathy.
I should pop up.
Jess (36:24):
Yes, and we will put all of that in our show notes for
everybody listening, of course.
Claude (36:29):
But thank you so much, shemin, and we learned so much
about stoic empathy.
We really loved it and you knowwork best out there.
It's your turn.
Start using this awesome methodand, of course, don't forget
the book Stoic Empathy method.
(36:50):
And of course, don't forget thebook Stoic Empathy.
And if you loved as much as weloved this show, please make
sure to share with your work,bestie, or with your loved ones,
and click subscribe and likeand thank you very much.
See you next week.
Jess (37:03):
thank you, charm.
See you next week.
Thank you, charmaine.
Thank you, charmaine.
Thank you bye.
It's a pleasure, remember,whether you're swapping snacks
in the break room, rescuing eachother from endless meetings or
just sending that perfectlytimed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (37:19):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties.
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