November 17, 2025 • 38 mins
Ever feel like you’re doing all the “right” things at work or in your relationships… and still feel off?
In this episode, Jess & Claude sit down with Eric Gee — educator, personality typologist, and author of The Power of Personality — to talk about why the real unlock isn’t more skills, it’s knowing who you are and what you truly value.
Eric has personality-typed over 50,000 people and created the Youtopia 16 framework, a values-based approach to personality that helps you stop fighting your nature and start using it. In this conversation, you’ll hear how your type shapes the way you work, lead, love, and even choose your work besties.
In this episode, we cover:
- Why school and “adulting” push one value system on everyone
- The difference between people who value safety & security vs excitement vs information
- Why the “rule-followers” and the “firefighters” actually need each other (at work and at home)
- How personality is not about what you’re good at, but what you’re drawn to
- Why siblings raised in the same family can have wildly different personalities and paths
- How leaders with different personalities (think Elon Musk vs a classic principal-type) show up so differently at work
- Concrete vs abstract communicators — and why your coworkers sometimes feel like aliens
- One simple shift you can make this week to show up more like yourself instead of who you think you’re “supposed” to be
Meet Eric Gee
Eric Gee is the founder of an education company focused on individualized growth, the creator of the Youtopia 16 personality framework, and author of The Power of Personality. He’s typed tens of thousands of people and spent over two decades helping teachers, teams, and leaders understand values-based personality so they can collaborate better and grow into the healthiest version of themselves.
Take the Youtopia 16 test & find Eric
🔹 Take the quiz: projectyoutopia.com or youtopiaproject.com
🔹 Book: The Power of Personality (available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and most major booksellers)
Try this Work Bestie Challenge 💎
- Take the Youtopia 16 assessment this week.
- Do one thing that’s aligned with your personality type — not something you “should” do.
- Share it with your work bestie and compare how your values show up differently at work.
Tag us and let us know what you find out!
You can watch the full episode on Youtube
Follow us on IG , TikTok, Threads and LinkedIn
Please rate, comment and provide suggestions for upcoming episodes
Work Besties! Theme Song Written by Ralph Lentini @therallyband
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess K (00:00):
What if the reason you're stuck at work or in your
relationship isn't about skills,but about knowing yourself well
enough?
Claude F (00:07):
Our guest today, Eric G, has tapped over 50,000 people
and spent two decades helpingteams, leaders, and individuals
unlock their potential.
Jess K (00:17):
He's the creator of the Utopia 16 as well as has an
amazing book called The Power ofPersonality.
Claude F (00:23):
He's worked with everyone, from educators to
entrepreneurs, to help them stopfighting their personality and
start using it.
Jess K (00:31):
So as you listen, ask yourself what part of you have
you been downplaying just to fitin?
Claude F (00:38):
And stay with us till the end, because Eric shares one
simple, powerful shift to helpyou show up more like yourself
this week.
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess K (00:55):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other
up, laugh through the chaos,and thrive together in every
industry.
Work besties.
Welcome, Eric.
Eric Gee (01:08):
Thank you for having me, even with my very hoarse,
low voice.
I'm uh getting over a bit of acough.
Jess K (01:13):
So we thought we would kick off and get right into who
you are.
Can you take us back to a timewhen you felt like a total
misfit?
And that moment where you feltlike what you're wired clashed
with what your expectationswere?
Eric Gee (01:27):
I always bring it back to school, and I think school
is so influential in everyone'slife.
Um part of my personalitytyping methodology is based on
differences in values.
When we're in school, we're alltaught like very, very specific
values, like follow the rules.
And the first thing you do islike figure out what the rules
are in the class, like what yourname is, put it exactly on the
right part of type of paper thatyou have.
(01:47):
And I think in general, likethat didn't necessarily fit my
value system, this like verystructured linear approach.
I do think it fits about halfthe population.
So I think that's why studentsin general kind of flow into it
and assume that it's the rightway for everybody.
But for me, I kind of feltlike, well, I don't maybe want
some of the things thateverybody else wants.
Maybe I felt like I shouldbecause I was being told that,
(02:08):
but deep down inside, it wasn'tparticularly feeling right.
As you get older, it's likethey're kind of like you should
get married, have kids, a nineto five job, buy a house.
I was talking to my niece onetime and she said I was really
bad at adulting, which kind ofhurt my feelings.
And I was like, what isadulting to you?
And she's like, Oh, it's easy,it's owning a house.
I'm like, that's a reallyinteresting form or like thought
process in terms of adulting.
But I was like, oh, okay, Ididn't really think about it
(02:30):
that way.
Sometimes we're ingrained inwith that, and I don't think
it's the right approach,especially not for everybody.
And that's what got me intopersonality typing methodology.
And eventually I started my owneducation company, and I did
that for about a decade.
Um, so that's where the tens ofthousands of people came in.
We'd rather have about athousand students a year, and I
would teach my teachers how touse this mess of methodology to
work individually with eachstudent so that they weren't
(02:53):
necessarily throwing their ownbias onto the students.
Claude F (02:56):
There are a lot of personality tests out there.
Yours, how does it differ?
And what really is yourpersonality test?
Eric Gee (03:06):
The easiest way to say it is it's animals.
People remember that better.
Like people will alwaysremember if they're a fox, you
know, they're like, oh, I'm afox.
Foxes love to be foxes, right?
The the biggest likeintellectual difference would be
that I focus mainly on adifference of values versus a
difference of a lot ofpersonality tests, like go like,
oh, you introverted orextroverted, or are you like
more structured or are you morelike spontaneous?
(03:28):
And they or are you moreskilled at this, or maybe
skilled at this?
And I'm more like, well, skillis more a point of practice.
And introversion andextroversion doesn't really make
sense because oftentimes we canbe one at different moments
depending on how connected wefeel to the situation.
And generally the context isdetermined by our own value
system, right?
If it's something that youvalue, if you're in a situation
(03:50):
where it's like really meansomething to you, then you're
gonna be more outgoing becauseit's something that you have a
lot of passion for.
If you're not the biggest golffan and you're in the middle of
a golf match, yeah, you're gonnabe kind of quiet because you
really don't care.
So I think that's kind of thebiggest difference.
Claude F (04:03):
But isn't value being taught?
You don't, you're not born witha value, you create them.
And can value change withinyour, you know, you I find that
most people can't change.
Eric Gee (04:15):
I think we grow.
I always say we can grow intobetter versions of ourselves or
worse versions of ourselvesbased on how mature we are.
So I just waver based on whenpeople say, Oh, well, you can
develop my values because Isometimes feel like it's just
someone trying to change youinto what they are.
If someone says, Oh, I don'treally want to have kids, and
someone says, Oh, don't worry,when you get older, you'll
change your mind.
It's like, hmm, why would youassume that someone's gonna
(04:37):
change their mind just becausethey got older?
Maybe it's your value andthat's what happened to you.
But I do think that, like, youknow, the way I determine
different pet personality packsis what I call them.
The majority of people in theworld value safety and security.
So you can kind of tell thatour society is kind of based on
that, and that's kind of a goodthing.
So they're the typical, like,we follow the rules, not because
(04:58):
we follow the rules becausewe're boring, we follow the
rules because without structureand without a certain sense of
uncertainty, then the worldbecomes unsafe.
So I don't think that's a badthing.
I think a lot of elementaryschool teachers, high school
principals, or principals ingeneral do fit into that
personality type, and it leaveskids feeling in a safe and
secure world.
But that's not everybody.
And for every kindergartenteacher who knows they have half
(05:19):
the class listening to therules, there's about a third of
the class that are runningaround grabbing things and
throwing things up in the airand trying to figure out what's
going on.
And I think that's probably abetter indicator of us as adults
as well.
Jess K (05:29):
Eric, when when you talk about the typology of people,
how do people come about this?
Like what, why would they wantto do this?
Eric Gee (05:37):
I think it's for everyone who's ever felt like
different or felt like, wow, youknow, my values are different
than the ones that my parentsare telling me, you know.
I have a student who's told meone time, she's like, I don't
want to grow up.
And I told her, I was like, youknow I know exactly how you
feel.
You do have to grow older.
You don't have to grow up inthe way that you think you have
to grow up or the way that yourparents been telling you you
have to grow up.
(05:58):
We all have our own growth arc,and it is often determined by
our personalities, and it's justdifficult when about half the
population kind of fits into onepersonality sphere because
their values tend to get pushedon to everybody else.
And I'm not saying they're badvalues, it's great that they
have them, but it also kind ofunderappreciates everyone else.
Claude F (06:16):
So going back to the kindergarten where everybody
doesn't always follow the rules.
But shouldn't they?
Because at the end of the day,you're in a class, right?
Your value is not to listen, soyou're going to run around the
class non-stop, but it is notalways socially acceptable
(06:36):
because you still, you know,you're bothering people, you you
still need to have control.
So how do you I know exactlywhat you mean?
Eric Gee (06:45):
How do you be the perfect the warden while also
being the therapist one-on-one?
You know, and obviously in akindergarten class or any time
when you have like a teacherwith a like a large set of
students, you kind of have towork towards the majority.
So I totally get it.
Like I'm not saying thatteachers do anything wrong.
I taught my teachers and theywere dealing with their students
in a one-on-one capacity.
So when I I use that referencepoint where you have the kids
(07:07):
listening and the kids throwingthings around, that those are
kind of the two most populouspersonality packs.
And what I would always tell myteachers is you have to
understand that the one thatthrows things around, their
value system is totallydifferent.
And you cannot change that.
If you try to change it, that'snot healthy for them and it's
not gonna be particularlyeffective for you.
So, like that personality pack,the one that's throwing things
(07:27):
around and maybe not necessarilyfollowing the rules, they're
the type who, if you tell them,hey, if you do not eat the
cookies from the cookie jar,because if you do, like let's
say a parent tells their kidthat, if you take that cookie,
I'm gonna slap you.
Their mindset is going to be,hmm, I wonder, is that cookie
worth the slap?
Jess K (07:45):
Worth the slap.
Right.
Eric Gee (07:47):
Yeah, and and the parent is gonna be, no, you
don't understand.
I want you to not do it becauseyou should respect my authority
as the parent.
You should not be thinking thisway.
But that's just the way theythink.
And if you don't have that,like we wouldn't have effective
firefighters, we didn't wouldn'thave effective like pilots, we
wouldn't have effective peoplein roles that they have to take
calculated chances like that insituations where life doesn't
(08:10):
really have rules.
Like a fire does not have anyset rules.
You're in a house on fire, youdon't know what's gonna happen,
and you need to be able toadjust and make quick decisions
like that.
And the person who's constantlyneeds that feeling of safety
and security often does notnecessarily make the right
decisions, or they tend to getlike stuck, right?
So I think everyone has value.
Claude F (08:28):
Don't you think that firefighters do have a set of
rules?
I mean, they cannot do whateverthey want, or it can be worse
for their teammate.
So I like I like what you sayabout calculated risk, but I do
believe they still have rules.
Eric Gee (08:44):
They have they are set on their craft.
So it's the equivalent of let'ssay if you have a musician, the
rules that a musician followsare like look, this is like a
note, this is the scale.
You know, these are like thetechniques that I follow and
that I've worked on my entirelife.
But in terms of you telling mehow to make a song, no, I'm
gonna do it my way, right?
And then when I do this song,I'm not even gonna like let's
(09:05):
say I had a lot of success in myfirst album, you know, my
second album, I'm totally gonnachange it up and do things a
totally different way becausethat's who I am.
Because that personality pack,they don't value safety and
security, they value excitement.
And you can imagine when twopeople have those competing
values, how they might clash,right?
I always say, like, the personwho values excitement goes on a
roller coaster because they wantto feel like they might die.
(09:26):
They know they're not gonnadie, but they love that feeling
of maybe I might die because I'mgetting thrown around.
Whereas the person who valuessafety and security is like, why
would I ever want to feel thatway at all?
They tend to actually get alongreally well together.
That's the most common couple,romantic coupling, by the way.
Yes, exactly, because they knowthe person who values safety
and security, they might seem alittle boring.
So if they match up withsomeone just like them, they
(09:47):
might be like, Oh God, we'regonna have a boring life
together.
They love that person who'sreally exciting and fun.
And then, of course, theexciting person's like, well,
they realize I can't havesomeone like me.
We're gonna burn hot and we'regonna burn fast.
Like every Hollywood romance,right?
Like actors tend to be likethat.
Actors tend to be thatpersonality pack that likes
excitement.
So they burn hot and fast, butso often they look for someone
(10:08):
who's a little steadier, and sothey balance each other.
Jess K (10:10):
That totally feels like us.
I'm the boring one.
You're the stable.
I wouldn't say boring.
Claude F (10:16):
I would say the one that likes security.
Yeah, I need rules, otherwise,I'm going insane.
Eric Gee (10:21):
I could sense that from your questions.
Claude F (10:23):
Yeah.
Eric Gee (10:24):
You're the bird, you're the bird.
No one likes really that's thebest comparison I can come up
with.
Jess K (10:29):
We do need birds in our world, though.
Yeah, we do.
We do.
I totally agree.
Exactly.
I'm like, you need rules.
Oh sorry, firefighters haverules.
I mean, this also to bring itback to the majority of our
people are more in corporateAmerica, and this does feel very
similar to that, too, right?
We're not defending againstfires every day.
(10:50):
It feels like it.
Yeah, they think we are.
They think we are.
But the same thing, like, thereare so many times where we're
stuck having to stick to therules, yeah, and then you hear
me complaining because I'm like,I just want to do this instead
of that.
Why do I have to jump through18 hoops to get to this one
thing when it's right there?
It's right there.
(11:10):
And me, I would be like, well,because it's a process.
Yes.
Eric Gee (11:16):
I'm like, Yeah, depending on the sector, right?
The sector, your sector couldhave a lot of different
personalities too within it.
And they tend to do like Iworked with a lot of software
for engineering companies, andyou have the ones that work nine
to five and have a very steady,like organized, like structure.
They know when they're gonnago, they know what their
objectives and they're trying tohit, and they lead teams to try
to reach these objectives andkeep everyone together.
(11:36):
But you also have like thefirefighters who are on 24-7,
and I think they're called insoftware engineering terms,
they're called the knock team,if I'm correct.
And they go in there if there'sa problem with the website.
So they gotta be on 24-7,right?
Because people are on the web24-7.
So if there's a problem, theyget in there right away and fix
it.
And they like it, they lovebeing on there.
Jess K (11:55):
Like Eric, I when people come to you for these quizzes,
what's the most common reasonthey're coming?
Is it because of team dynamics?
Is it just to learn?
What would be the rationale?
Eric Gee (12:07):
Depending on who it is, but probably the majority of
people just want to know whothey should hook up with.
I think that's the number onething.
They're like, okay, whatpersonality am I, and who should
I be looking for?
Who should I bang tonight?
Oftentimes, what they'rethinking about.
Jess K (12:19):
Not the answer I was expecting.
Eric Gee (12:21):
I've had like, I've done talks at a professional
office, and I do the whole like,oh, this is how you guys are
gonna work together, and this iswhy this person is bossy, in
quotes, and this is why thisperson is a little more
free-flowing, and justappreciate it, guys.
And I'm having this wholediscussion, and then at the way
in, I'm like, oh, does anyonehave any questions?
And then the first question, soif I'm this type, who should I
be looking for as a mate?
(12:41):
That's the number one questionthat people ask.
I don't have any set answersbecause I don't believe in a
soulmate per se.
I do think that certain typesdo gel better with other types,
and it's not going to be a typethat's like you.
You're gonna get definitelysick or annoyed with a type
that's exactly like you.
Jess K (12:56):
Well, it could not be with a type like me.
That would definitely set meoff.
Eric Gee (13:00):
Yeah, which is good.
That's your natural instincts,right?
Like in general, peopleunderstand that, but that's
generally what people want.
And I don't know who theyshould up with.
But I often work with students,and with the students, I'm
really just teaching them how togrow into the best possible
version of themselves versus thebest possible version of what
they're being told they shouldbe like.
Jess K (13:17):
That is a great segue into where our WordQuesting
community is and how they allwant to level up their skill
set, knowing the different typesof personalities, what are some
of the things that they willlearn from that too will help
them get to that next level.
Eric Gee (13:29):
When it comes to the next level, we often think of
skills, right?
But with personality, it'sgreat because it's not, I think
a lot of people like learningabout personality types because
they want to know what I am goodat.
And I'm like, well, justbecause you're a certain
personality doesn't mean you'reautomatically going to be
brilliant at one thing.
I have a friend who is the samepersonality type as Einstein,
and he's always like, I'm thesame personality type in
(13:50):
Einstein, but that doesn'tautomatically make anyone like
our personality type a genius.
Einstein was a genius.
He's like, I know a hell of alot about fantasy football and
massage therapy.
So I'm just a nerd about thosetwo things.
That is what I am, because it'sthat type really loves
information.
That's what they seek, andthey're total nerds about it,
which you can imagine someonelike that would be very much
like Einstein, right?
(14:11):
But the nice thing aboutpersonality, it tells us kind of
what we're gonna like.
And the things that we like, wetend to do more often.
So, what I would recommend yourlisteners is find out what
personality type you are,because ideally you might be
doing something that maybeyou're forcing yourself to like,
and maybe finding out yourpersonality type will help you
go, oh, that makes sense becauseI've always liked to do things
like this, and it'll give youalmost like a permission slip to
(14:35):
actually pursue those things.
And the more you do them, thenthe better we get, and thus our
skills rise.
Claude F (14:39):
And so the framework is utopia 16.
Doesn't mean that it's 16personality.
Eric Gee (14:46):
And that's gonna be a number that's familiar to a lot
of people because the MBTI, theMyers-Briggs, also uses that.
But my methodology is verydifferent to get to those 16
different types.
And in the book, it explainsthe differences.
So in a Myers-Briggs, thedifference between I'm gonna be
saying a lot of random lettershere, the difference between an
ENTP and an INCP would be inMyers-Briggs' terms, one would
(15:06):
be extroverted and the otherwould be an introverted version.
Um, in my methodology, it'scompletely different based on
their value system.
And since those types valueinformation, then the difference
in personality is gonnamanifest itself in that way.
Jess K (15:19):
Is there something that like is similar to being
introvert versus extrovert thatyou would be able to tell from a
value statement?
Eric Gee (15:26):
So mine breaks down because depending on what
personality type you are, uhyou'll get that way in a very
different methodology.
Introversion, extroversion doestend to work.
And I explain it in the bookfor like half the population,
because that population thatvalues safety and security,
their number one way that theyget that safety and security is
being part of a structuredsociety, right?
They're very involved in thesocial system.
(15:47):
So thus extroversion,introversion does kind of have a
priority for them, right?
How do they interact withpeople in a social situation?
But if your value system isinformation, you could care less
about people and personalityeffects.
Sometimes that often is thecase where they're just like, I
don't care about I'm here forinformation.
And then people say, Oh,they're autistic, or they're
serial killers or sociopaths,you know, and it's a small
(16:08):
percentage of the population,too, so they get kind of pushed
off to the side.
Um, but we need people likethat.
Einstein was that way.
The difference will be the waythat that extroversion,
introversion manifests istotally different.
It would be like the differencebetween an experimental
physicist and a theoretical.
One gets the processes orinformation by experimenting and
trying different things, andthe other processes information
by theorizing and observing.
Claude F (16:29):
What does value mean?
Is it like when you see thevalues?
Is it because my value is likethe picket fans and all that?
So, how do you define values?
Eric Gee (16:40):
I define values based on what do we want, right?
So it's not the what, but thewhy, right?
So you could have multimultiple writers.
You could see they're doing thesame thing, but they're not the
same personality type justbecause they're writing, right?
No one sees Hemingway andthinks he's the same as Tolstoy.
Someone who values safety andsecurity might want the white
picket fence, or they might wantsomething else that gives them
safety and security.
They might want to move up intheir job and level up in their
(17:01):
job and have like authoritywithin that job sector.
That person who wants thatsafety and security through a
job versus the person who wantsthat safety, security versus the
white picket fence with afamily, they can often be very
similar, right?
Because they have the samevalue system and they're gonna
get along and they're gonnaunderstand each other very well.
Speaking for my mom, who wasthat person who valued authority
(17:22):
and wanted safety and securityfrom feeling like she was
important, she did move up theranks in her work environment,
but she didn't necessarily lovebeing a mother.
That wasn't her priority.
And a lot of other people wholove being parents would be
like, oh my God, I can't believethat.
But she was a good parent.
She did everything she wassupposed to, but that wasn't a
particular value system for her.
But she would totally get alongwith someone who valued that
because she would see, oh, weboth value safety and security.
(17:43):
Whereas the person who valueslike information, there's going
to be a big conflict.
Jess K (17:47):
All right, I get that.
In in your framework, can yougive us examples of other
well-known or even fictionalcharacters and what they style
they would be in your in your 16framework so we kind of get a
sense?
Eric Gee (18:00):
I mean, I sometimes use comic book.
Almost everyone's seen theAvengers and Marvel stuff.
So I'll use that sometimes.
Like Iron Man.
Iron Man's a very clearexample, someone who prioritizes
information.
And Captain America is someonewho prioritizes safety and
security.
And it's kind of cool becauseyou can see their clash.
They're both heroes, they bothwant what's right, but they have
very, very differentmethodologies of how to get
(18:21):
there.
Whereas like Captain America isall about sacrifice because
that's a very strong valuesystem of his.
Uh Captain Iron Man is moreabout sacrifice, it's great, but
it's also kind of stupid.
I'm all about information, soI'm gonna troubleshoot this.
What's the line where CaptainAmerica is like, would you fall
on a wire to sacrifice to helpthe guy behind you?
Iron Man's like, I'll justfigure out a way to cut it.
And we but we need both thosepeople, right?
(18:42):
We we need both those.
That's very uh important.
Claude F (18:45):
And that can like you say before, you know, those two
people can learn from eachother.
Eric Gee (18:50):
Yes, yes, that's the important thing, too, is I'm a
big believer in growth.
Once you're very secure in whoyou are, it's good to borrow
from other types because they'regonna have strengths that you
do not have.
I always say our strengths arebased on our weaknesses.
My personality type, my bigflaw was that I get super
excited and enthusiastic aboutstuff, and I start a lot of
things, and I don't finish anyof them.
So it's good to know thatbecause you can consciously I'm
(19:12):
like, okay, I need to finish atleast some of the things that I
start.
Now I'm not gonna be able tofinish all of them.
I know that about me, but Ican't be like that dog, like
playing with a toy and then afrisbee gets thrown and I go
chase the frisbee all the time,right?
And there are other types whoare like constantly, they don't
start anything that they can'tfinish.
So I can learn a lot from thattype, and I can ask them, oh,
like, how are the ways that youfinish the things that you
(19:33):
start?
And then they can teach you,oh, I I make a plan and all that
kind of stuff.
And you don't have to do allthose things, but I think it's
good to borrow some of thosethings so that we can grow.
Jess K (19:40):
Right.
You can learn from each other.
I love that.
So I'm curious if you have anidea of what you think our two
types are.
Eric Gee (19:46):
Well, you you gave it away already a little bit.
So I mean, I love to guess thatwhen uh you were asking the
questions about, but we have tofollow the rules, right?
Because there has to be order,right?
You can't have non-order.
That definitely shows that yourvalue system is safety and
security.
I'd imagine like your greatestfear is chaos or just things
like with no absolute rules atall.
Claude F (20:05):
Well, yeah, because I'm a mess in my mind.
No, it's true.
I'm a mess in my mind.
So I need exactly I need orderand processes all over.
I'm going to be all over theplace.
Like you see my desk, it's likeuh a bomb came up, but I have
to like otherwise I need processor it won't work for me.
Eric Gee (20:29):
Here's a question
authority?
Like, like do you believe inlike a structure of authority?
Like I follow the person aboveme, and then they follow the
person above them, and so forth.
Claude F (20:40):
Well, when you say yes, I still have this respect,
right?
I'm not going, I'm never goingto say you're an idiot to my
superior because they are mysuperior, right?
At the end of the day.
So I am going to say if I don'tagree with something, I will
say it.
Jess K (20:57):
I don't agree because one, two, and three
respectfully.
Claude F (21:01):
But if at the end they say no, it's going to be my
way, then I'm like, okay, I saymy point of view, peace out.
Jess K (21:09):
Would you ever quit a job if it got really that bad
where they were like you have tojob and you're like, no, I
don't agree.
I quit a job because of a boss.
Oh terrible.
Well, not just the boss, but Imean like the the vanishing of
values.
Claude F (21:22):
No, because I tend to see the same value.
I had I think I had the samevalue as my boss.
Actually, except the last one.
That's why I left.
I didn't, yeah, I left.
Because I couldn't say my pointof view.
Got it.
Eric Gee (21:37):
Did you did you when you have you you've watched Game
of Thrones?
Claude F (21:40):
Yes, but or those I forgot who those people were.
You forgot a lot of?
Yeah, oh no.
We'll go bench watch it.
Eric Gee (21:46):
You should.
I have a there's a Game ofThrones test on my site so you
can figure out what Game ofThrones character you are.
Jess K (21:52):
Oh my god, I want to take that.
Eric Gee (21:53):
Yeah, it's funny because it's based on I mean,
yeah, you're an Arya Stark.
Okay, well, number one,everybody says they are Arya
Stark because she's so cool andeveryone likes her and she's
very lovely.
Jess K (22:03):
She's now in The Last of Us.
Eric Gee (22:06):
Uh Bella Ramsey?
Jess K (22:07):
Uh yes.
She was like the uh I forgetthe name of her character, but
yeah, I like she was.
Eric Gee (22:12):
She's a Mormon.
Yeah, she's a moron.
So for you, like but youdefinitely gelled with that
hunter.
So I call them gatherers andhunters, the two packs that
value safety and security, andone values excitement.
Because I kind of use it basedon our roles in medieval
villages, right?
We need most of all, we needthe most gatherers, so that's
why we have more gatherers inthe world, right?
And then we need a lot ofhunters as well, but hunting is
(22:34):
dangerous, so some of them die.
And kind of like in oursociety, hunting jobs or
hunting, jobs are not to saythat you're you have a short
lifespan or expected lifespan,but sometimes they tend to take
jobs.
My sister's a hunter.
The first job she got out ofcollege was on a deep-sea
Alaskan fishing boat, and that'sactually a dangerous job.
Now, she was not actually likethe fisherman because she was
(22:54):
not physically strong enough,but that's like the she was on
the boat, she was in Alaska, andshe was like checking out the
like what the their catch to seeif like they were supposed to
catch it or they weren't.
That's a job that a hunter,like who a person who likes
excitement, would like.
They're just like, no, I don'twant a nine to five, I want to
go on a boat for like fourmonths out of the year, you
know?
So I I understand.
So you seem a littlehunter-ish, but since you like
(23:15):
that character, the Mormoncharacter, but you only because
you said she was badass, right?
Like if she's really tough, youmaybe might be like Arya Stark.
Aria Stark's a sharkpersonality type, and she's a
hunter.
Hunters are like the largerpack, and then there's four
animals within each of the fourpacks.
So four times four, of course,makes 16.
So the shark is one of thehunters, and they they're pretty
(23:37):
tough and they're aggressive,even though you don't seem to
come off as mean.
So I don't know if you're ashark.
Sharks sometimes come off asmean.
Would you say you're more howwould how do you come off?
Jess K (23:46):
I don't know.
In the work environment, I canbe mean?
Yeah.
Claude F (23:49):
I don't think you're mean in the work environment.
No.
Jess K (23:52):
I'm very straightforward.
Eric Gee (23:54):
One of the flaws of a shark is that they're stubborn
because a shark is like, okay, Imean I see what I want, I kill
it.
You know, like they're very,you know.
Yeah, I mean, they're very sotheir stubbornness is negative,
right?
But they're positive.
The positive part of that isthey're also like really
determined, right?
So Arya, of course, is likesuper determined.
Is she pretty narrow-minded?
Sometimes she can be, right?
And she's and it hurts her abit, and she's a bit reckless
(24:14):
sometimes.
Um, other sharks on Game ofThrones are like Tyrion's friend
Braun, he's a shark.
Jamie Lannister is not a shark,but he's similar in a lot of
ways.
Anyway, I'm sorry, I don't wantto keep using pop culture
references that people willprobably not understand, but
just it helps relate a littlebit more.
Claude F (24:28):
Yeah, I kind of get it more.
Those value, are you born withit, or it just happened like
with what happened with yourlife?
What do you think?
Before I'm going to say thatbecause I was um rhythmic
gymnast from my youth, doingcompetition and everything.
You need orders, like we hadour um choreographer saying, You
(24:53):
jump, we say, How high?
Right?
There was no saying she wasRussian too.
So, I mean, I'm sure she'sstill Russian, but so she was
very metallical, and it was likeyou do that authoritative, and
you had no choice but follow therules or you were out, which
brought us to higher so thatshaped my personality as well,
(25:19):
because I was like from the ageof 11 to 18 to know that I had
to follow the rules of someone.
The hierarchy.
So that's why it doesn't meanthat you wouldn't have had that.
I would not have had it beforeor would have.
Eric Gee (25:34):
I I don't know.
And the question of whetherwe're born with it or not, I
have no answer to that because Idon't know.
I do think there's a differencebetween I say our personality
is based on like what we grew upwith, like what we're taught,
but also our personality type,right?
Because I always say peopleoften say, Oh, I'm part of this
culture, how this culture is,right?
But I know what the stereotypeof that culture is, but for
(25:57):
every Japanese person who likedoes not like physical touch and
will bow and is not gonna hugyou, there's a peacock
personality type because theymake up like 8% of the
population, and peacocks alwayslove to hug.
Once again, Game of Thrones,they're like Robert Barackhean,
the big king, the big fat kingwho loves to bear hug everybody.
And if they grow up in Japan asa kid, they're gonna have
(26:20):
problems.
Like their parents are gonnasay, no, no, no, this is the
proper way to do it, and they'regonna kind of feel like left
out.
And on the flip side, I have afriend who's Cuban, and in Latin
culture, it's oftentimes a lotabout kissing and hugging your
friend family, and he's a shark,so he's like, do not touch me.
This is my space, do not dothat.
But he's forced to.
And so I do think it's amixture of that, where sometimes
(26:42):
how we're brought up is notnecessarily what totally matches
our personality, and that canbe unhealthy for us.
And part of our growth processis learning those things are
important and they make us whowe are, but also this is
actually my personality type.
And maybe now that I'm 40 or 50or 60 or whatever, I want to
explore this and be truly happy.
Claude F (27:02):
Maybe if I wasn't into the safety, I would not have
continued the sport because itwould not have gone with my
values.
That's it.
Jess K (27:10):
I I was gonna say, I think it's a little bit of both.
Yeah, your upbringing helpsbring some of this out to light,
but I don't think your yourfamily values create your own
values, it just helps you figurethem out.
Claude F (27:23):
Yeah.
Jess K (27:24):
Because I think the element is you.
That's what makes us also aunique and individual.
It's thinking how manyfamilies, think of my own, like
all my siblings have verydistinct personalities.
Do we all mesh and get along?
Yeah, but politically we're notall the same.
Like we're all very different,and we were all both raised by
the same two parents.
Claude F (27:42):
Oh, yeah, my sister and I are totally different.
Jess K (27:44):
So I think I think it's both, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Gee (27:47):
I love using like how you use your siblings.
That's the whole point of mybook, too, is like I'm saying
things that I want people toidentify with, not because
they're reading it and they'regoing, oh, I'm gonna listen to
these things, but more likereading and going, like they
start saying, Oh, I know thisperson, and obviously, who do we
know more than our family andour siblings and our parents,
right?
That's the number one thing.
And you know, I said before,and it was kind of jokingly that
people want to know who theywant to hook up with.
And that actually is truly thefirst question that people have.
(28:10):
But if they're being honest,like the second one is if
they're parents, they're alwaysgonna go, like, oh, no wonder
why my kid is like, this is thekid that I hate, and this is the
kid I love, you know, like theystart going, oh, it's not
because this kid's an asshole.
Yeah, they well, they they theydo say that way jokingly,
right?
They're like, No wonder I hatemy son.
It's more like, oh, okay,because we probably have
(28:31):
competing personalities, whereasthis other kid, we're more
similar.
Oftentimes, the parents, likeout of my teachers, the ones who
were parents were the ones whogot it right away when when I
taught them this, they werelike, Oh, I totally understand
this because now I know how totreat my children differently.
And sometimes they're alreadytreating their children
differently, just instinctively,right?
Because they're like, Okay,this is not gonna work with this
kid, so I gotta use differentthings.
(28:52):
My father treated us alldifferently, and he knew nothing
about personality tax, but Ithink he instinctively did.
And so he gave my sister allthe freedom in the world.
He called me dumb shit for myentire life because he knew that
I worked best with a chip on myshoulder, and then my little
brother's nickname was Mr.
Wonderful.
Those are all differentmethodologies, and they all
worked because he knew that myyounger brother, he loved safety
and security, so he needed thatcomfort zone.
(29:13):
He, you know, if you tweak ittweaked him a little bit, that
would not be very effective,right?
But for me, like I work onprinciple.
So thus he wanted to like tweakthat because he knew that I
would work better and be highlymotivated if I felt like I was
being wronged in some way.
So that worked.
We can all learn how to workwith um understand our family
better through personality.
Jess K (29:33):
Well, and I think work-wise too, right?
Yeah.
When you're thinking about youmanage a team, maybe the only
slight difference isunderstanding based on where you
are in the pecking order,right?
The oldest, the middle, theyoungest does play into it too.
And I think some of yourpersonalities shift and parent
parenting styles shift becauseof that.
But from a workwise, you couldrelate that to those that have
(29:53):
been in your team for a while,those that are anywhere.
Claude F (29:58):
And and you you have to manage differently.
Depending on the personality.
On the personality and what isgoing to drive that person.
Their values.
Jess K (30:06):
It comes back to the values.
You're right.
Claude F (30:07):
Exactly.
Jess K (30:08):
You're right.
Because you can think aboutlike there's certain individuals
that are they are amazingindividuals, but not as
motivated as the rest.
And it's because of theirvalues.
And how do you get them torelate to the work in a
different way?
Because it's not going to bethe same as somebody who's a
rule follower.
You just tell them the rulesand they go with it.
Eric Gee (30:25):
And mention the two packs that make up about half
the population and a third, butthat leaves about like 15 to 16
percent of people.
And there's those make thereare two packs within those 15 or
16%.
So those are, for lack of abetter term, minority packs.
When you encounter people likethat, it's often like people are
like, wait, what is thisperson?
Who is this person?
Like, why are they so weird?
You know, and I say weird, I'mone of the packs, so I've gotten
(30:47):
that quite a bit actually.
It can throw people off,especially in a work
environment.
You're like, wait, what iswrong with this person?
Why are they so different interms of their motivation
structure than everyone else?
And so it's it behooves us tolike understand all the types,
and especially because thosetypes do tend to get lost
because of the dichotomy thateveryone knows is that the bird
and earny, the odd coupledichotomy, that's a very common
one, and people kind ofunderstand that, you know.
(31:08):
And once again, that makesabout 85% of the population, but
there is that other 15% that,you know, where the Einsteins go
into or the, I don't know, likethe very spiritual people go
into.
Jess K (31:18):
Eric, what's the most common personality type for
leaders?
And then like give us examplesof like maybe an eccentric
leader like Elon Musk versus amore common leader?
Eric Gee (31:29):
That's a great question because you know, it
goes back to that whole likepeople like, oh, what
personality type am I?
Because I want to know what I'mgood at.
Leading is great because justlike writing, I think everybody,
every personality type can be aleader in their own way, but
they're gonna, it's best forthem to lead in their own way,
the one, the style that fits forthem, right?
So if you're a stag personalitytype, so that's part of the
(31:49):
gatherer pack, the safety andsecurity, you're gonna lead, I
won't say through fear.
At your worst, you're gonnalead through fear, but you're
gonna lead with authority.
You're gonna be like, hey, I'min charge, and orders go down.
My mom was that type.
So she was a school principal,and so I always told her, like,
yeah, you're big on authority.
She's like, No, I don't care.
And I'm like, okay, what ifsomeone parked in your parking
space?
Because she would have aparking space, right?
(32:10):
The best parking space at herschool, right?
And she's like, Yeah, but noone would ever do that.
I'm like, see, that's exactlythat mentality that no one would
ever park in your parkingspace, shows exactly how you
think.
That this is my I'm theauthority, right?
Um but there are other typesthat lead in, like, so Elon Musk
is a great example.
He is a Smith.
Smiths are part of thatpersonality pack that value
information.
So they're the ones that oftenpeople think are artistic or
(32:32):
sociopaths, because they often,if you ask a Smith, like I had a
parent ask me once because herkid was a Smith, and she's like,
Is there something wrong withhim?
I mean, no, he's totally fine.
This is his personality.
Because what she said was,she's like, Oh, I was in this
dress and I was getting readyfor a party, and I asked him,
How do I look?
And he said, terrible.
And then she was like, What?
And he's like, Well, you asked.
And she's like, Yeah, I she wastelling me, she's like, I
(32:53):
expect him to say, like, youlook great, mom.
And I'm like, Well, you know,he just he took you.
Claude F (32:58):
Why do you ask?
Eric Gee (32:59):
Yeah, exactly.
He was like, Well, you he felthis best version of being a son
was giving you an honest answer.
So, but punch that up to athousand in terms of like things
that offend people, and that'swhen you get like people in the
public sphere who are likeSmiths, and people are like, Oh
my god, are they autistic?
So he leads through hispriorities information, so he's
kind of leading through that.
He's a chimpanzee personalitytype.
Are they the best leaders?
(33:19):
They're great at like leadingthrough innovation and kind of
going, look, this is how I lead.
I'm gonna give you guys ideasand this we're gonna follow.
Am I gonna care about yoursocial life?
Am I gonna care about yourfamily?
Sorry, no, I don't care.
Like, I just want us to createthe best invention possible.
So, Steve Jobs, samepersonality as Elon Musk, known
for not being the most sensitiveof individuals.
But as long as you understandthat and understand what they
(33:39):
bring to the table andappreciate that, then I think
that's like a start, right?
They're not gonna be the peoplewho care about, who ask you
about your wife and kids or youryou know, husband and kids.
Claude F (33:48):
So the goal to know the personality, those
personalities ultimately how toknow how to communicate with
them, correct?
Eric Gee (33:56):
Yes, that's like a really great um like skill set
to have through personality, islike, because you're gonna know
like everyone communicates at adifferent level too, based on
our values.
And some people are abstractcommunicators, some people are
concrete.
That's probably the biggestdivide.
And about 85% of the populationare concrete.
For an abstract person, they'reused to assimilating, right?
They're used to being aroundpeople who say, Oh, what did you
(34:18):
eat today?
Oh, well, I ate a bagel andcream cheese, and I got it at
this place, and it's one of myfavorite places.
And I go there every morningand I drive there in my this car
that I bought at thisdealership or online.
Like they're used to those veryconcrete conversations, but an
abstract conversation is verydifferent and difficult,
sometimes difficult for concretepeople.
I was once with like four of myteachers with one concrete
(34:39):
person and three abstractpeople, which is a very uncommon
situation, like in generalpopulation.
And they just one personstarted talking about John
Carpenter, and then anotherperson started jumping on top of
that about oh, this is myfavorite movie because I love
the theme of this, and when theydid this, and and the concrete
person was just like, she'slike, Oh my god, like, are these
people aliens?
Like, what am I listening toright now?
Jess K (34:57):
Where are they going?
Eric Gee (34:58):
Yeah, what is going on with this conversation?
So it just so likecommunication, sorry, that was a
long-winded answer, but I thinkknowing whether you're a
concrete personality type or anabstract personality type also
helps because I think it's goodto be able to do both if
possible, but still stay true toyourself as well at the same
time.
Claude F (35:16):
What is the communication for abstract?
Eric Gee (35:19):
So, abstracts they tend to like to talk about their
feelings and ideas, and that'soften how concrete people treat
abstract people is like, no, no,I don't care about all that
abstract stuff.
Let's go to nuts and bolts.
Like, how is that affectinglike real people in their real
lives in the physical world?
And that's the difference.
Jess K (35:35):
That's helpful for sure.
Um, Eric, how would people findout about um these different 16
personalities?
What would you recommend forpeople to do if they're
interested in more?
Eric Gee (35:47):
Buy this wonderful book called The Power of
Personality.
You can find it on Amazon oranywhere you buy books, go to
Barnes and Noble, you can orderit from there or your local
bookstore.
If you're really interested inthis and you want to know more,
I would go on my website.
You can take the test at eitherI have two sites, business
site.
Um, one is projectutopia.com,and that's utopia with like YOU,
like YouTube.
(36:07):
Um, and the other isutopiaproject.com.
So you just flip them around,and you can actually take the
test on either of those sites.
And once you take the test andyou you'll get a description,
and if you like what you'rereading, and if it like gels
with you, and you think you canwant to learn more, then I
definitely recommend buying thebook because the book is
basically me teaching you how tobecome the test and read and
(36:28):
understand the people aroundyou.
Jess K (36:29):
So we did have one last question.
What's that one simple,powerful shift that you think
can help people show up betterto make themselves them, make
them more about themselves thisweek?
Eric Gee (36:41):
Or this this I would definitely recommend taking the
tests online, finding whatpersonality type you are,
reading the Porsche though, andseeing if it matches, because I
always say I always recommendfinding the one that speaks to
you.
Because once you find whatspeaks to you, then for this
week, at least do one thing thatyou really enjoy.
Like, not something that you hafeel like you have to do,
because I think so much of ourlives we're told what we have to
(37:03):
do, but think of something thatyou truly want to do.
Oh, today's the first day thatI'm gonna meditate.
Find that one thing you want todo today based on your
personality type.
Jess K (37:12):
Huge thank you to Eric G for helping us rethink how we
show up at work and in life.
Claude F (37:17):
Because personality isn't something to fix, it's the
foundation for connection,clarity, and growth.
Jess K (37:23):
Whether you're navigating team tensions or just
trying to feel more yourself atwork.
And remember, self-knowledgeisn't a luxury, it's a really
dossier tool.
So tag your work bestie andtake that utopia 16 assessment
together.
You might be total opposites ora perfect treason piece.
And if you've ever been told totone it down to fit in, this is
(37:48):
your reminder.
Your difference is your edge.
Follow us at Work Besties WhoPodcasts for more conversations
that help you show up at workand in life with confidence and
clarity.
And a whole lot more you.
Thank you.
Remember, whether you'reswapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending that perfectly timedmeme.
(38:09):
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude F (38:13):
So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the
chaos, and of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive, and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties!
What if the reason you're stuck at work or in your
relationship isn't about skills,but about knowing yourself well
enough?
Claude F (00:07):
Our guest today, Eric G, has tapped over 50,000 people
and spent two decades helpingteams, leaders, and individuals
unlock their potential.
Jess K (00:17):
He's the creator of the Utopia 16 as well as has an
amazing book called The Power ofPersonality.
Claude F (00:23):
He's worked with everyone, from educators to
entrepreneurs, to help them stopfighting their personality and
start using it.
Jess K (00:31):
So as you listen, ask yourself what part of you have
you been downplaying just to fitin?
Claude F (00:38):
And stay with us till the end, because Eric shares one
simple, powerful shift to helpyou show up more like yourself
this week.
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess K (00:55):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other
up, laugh through the chaos,and thrive together in every
industry.
Work besties.
Welcome, Eric.
Eric Gee (01:08):
Thank you for having me, even with my very hoarse,
low voice.
I'm uh getting over a bit of acough.
Jess K (01:13):
So we thought we would kick off and get right into who
you are.
Can you take us back to a timewhen you felt like a total
misfit?
And that moment where you feltlike what you're wired clashed
with what your expectationswere?
Eric Gee (01:27):
I always bring it back to school, and I think school
is so influential in everyone'slife.
Um part of my personalitytyping methodology is based on
differences in values.
When we're in school, we're alltaught like very, very specific
values, like follow the rules.
And the first thing you do islike figure out what the rules
are in the class, like what yourname is, put it exactly on the
right part of type of paper thatyou have.
(01:47):
And I think in general, likethat didn't necessarily fit my
value system, this like verystructured linear approach.
I do think it fits about halfthe population.
So I think that's why studentsin general kind of flow into it
and assume that it's the rightway for everybody.
But for me, I kind of feltlike, well, I don't maybe want
some of the things thateverybody else wants.
Maybe I felt like I shouldbecause I was being told that,
(02:08):
but deep down inside, it wasn'tparticularly feeling right.
As you get older, it's likethey're kind of like you should
get married, have kids, a nineto five job, buy a house.
I was talking to my niece onetime and she said I was really
bad at adulting, which kind ofhurt my feelings.
And I was like, what isadulting to you?
And she's like, Oh, it's easy,it's owning a house.
I'm like, that's a reallyinteresting form or like thought
process in terms of adulting.
But I was like, oh, okay, Ididn't really think about it
(02:30):
that way.
Sometimes we're ingrained inwith that, and I don't think
it's the right approach,especially not for everybody.
And that's what got me intopersonality typing methodology.
And eventually I started my owneducation company, and I did
that for about a decade.
Um, so that's where the tens ofthousands of people came in.
We'd rather have about athousand students a year, and I
would teach my teachers how touse this mess of methodology to
work individually with eachstudent so that they weren't
(02:53):
necessarily throwing their ownbias onto the students.
Claude F (02:56):
There are a lot of personality tests out there.
Yours, how does it differ?
And what really is yourpersonality test?
Eric Gee (03:06):
The easiest way to say it is it's animals.
People remember that better.
Like people will alwaysremember if they're a fox, you
know, they're like, oh, I'm afox.
Foxes love to be foxes, right?
The the biggest likeintellectual difference would be
that I focus mainly on adifference of values versus a
difference of a lot ofpersonality tests, like go like,
oh, you introverted orextroverted, or are you like
more structured or are you morelike spontaneous?
(03:28):
And they or are you moreskilled at this, or maybe
skilled at this?
And I'm more like, well, skillis more a point of practice.
And introversion andextroversion doesn't really make
sense because oftentimes we canbe one at different moments
depending on how connected wefeel to the situation.
And generally the context isdetermined by our own value
system, right?
If it's something that youvalue, if you're in a situation
(03:50):
where it's like really meansomething to you, then you're
gonna be more outgoing becauseit's something that you have a
lot of passion for.
If you're not the biggest golffan and you're in the middle of
a golf match, yeah, you're gonnabe kind of quiet because you
really don't care.
So I think that's kind of thebiggest difference.
Claude F (04:03):
But isn't value being taught?
You don't, you're not born witha value, you create them.
And can value change withinyour, you know, you I find that
most people can't change.
Eric Gee (04:15):
I think we grow.
I always say we can grow intobetter versions of ourselves or
worse versions of ourselvesbased on how mature we are.
So I just waver based on whenpeople say, Oh, well, you can
develop my values because Isometimes feel like it's just
someone trying to change youinto what they are.
If someone says, Oh, I don'treally want to have kids, and
someone says, Oh, don't worry,when you get older, you'll
change your mind.
It's like, hmm, why would youassume that someone's gonna
(04:37):
change their mind just becausethey got older?
Maybe it's your value andthat's what happened to you.
But I do think that, like, youknow, the way I determine
different pet personality packsis what I call them.
The majority of people in theworld value safety and security.
So you can kind of tell thatour society is kind of based on
that, and that's kind of a goodthing.
So they're the typical, like,we follow the rules, not because
(04:58):
we follow the rules becausewe're boring, we follow the
rules because without structureand without a certain sense of
uncertainty, then the worldbecomes unsafe.
So I don't think that's a badthing.
I think a lot of elementaryschool teachers, high school
principals, or principals ingeneral do fit into that
personality type, and it leaveskids feeling in a safe and
secure world.
But that's not everybody.
And for every kindergartenteacher who knows they have half
(05:19):
the class listening to therules, there's about a third of
the class that are runningaround grabbing things and
throwing things up in the airand trying to figure out what's
going on.
And I think that's probably abetter indicator of us as adults
as well.
Jess K (05:29):
Eric, when when you talk about the typology of people,
how do people come about this?
Like what, why would they wantto do this?
Eric Gee (05:37):
I think it's for everyone who's ever felt like
different or felt like, wow, youknow, my values are different
than the ones that my parentsare telling me, you know.
I have a student who's told meone time, she's like, I don't
want to grow up.
And I told her, I was like, youknow I know exactly how you
feel.
You do have to grow older.
You don't have to grow up inthe way that you think you have
to grow up or the way that yourparents been telling you you
have to grow up.
(05:58):
We all have our own growth arc,and it is often determined by
our personalities, and it's justdifficult when about half the
population kind of fits into onepersonality sphere because
their values tend to get pushedon to everybody else.
And I'm not saying they're badvalues, it's great that they
have them, but it also kind ofunderappreciates everyone else.
Claude F (06:16):
So going back to the kindergarten where everybody
doesn't always follow the rules.
But shouldn't they?
Because at the end of the day,you're in a class, right?
Your value is not to listen, soyou're going to run around the
class non-stop, but it is notalways socially acceptable
(06:36):
because you still, you know,you're bothering people, you you
still need to have control.
So how do you I know exactlywhat you mean?
Eric Gee (06:45):
How do you be the perfect the warden while also
being the therapist one-on-one?
You know, and obviously in akindergarten class or any time
when you have like a teacherwith a like a large set of
students, you kind of have towork towards the majority.
So I totally get it.
Like I'm not saying thatteachers do anything wrong.
I taught my teachers and theywere dealing with their students
in a one-on-one capacity.
So when I I use that referencepoint where you have the kids
(07:07):
listening and the kids throwingthings around, that those are
kind of the two most populouspersonality packs.
And what I would always tell myteachers is you have to
understand that the one thatthrows things around, their
value system is totallydifferent.
And you cannot change that.
If you try to change it, that'snot healthy for them and it's
not gonna be particularlyeffective for you.
So, like that personality pack,the one that's throwing things
(07:27):
around and maybe not necessarilyfollowing the rules, they're
the type who, if you tell them,hey, if you do not eat the
cookies from the cookie jar,because if you do, like let's
say a parent tells their kidthat, if you take that cookie,
I'm gonna slap you.
Their mindset is going to be,hmm, I wonder, is that cookie
worth the slap?
Jess K (07:45):
Worth the slap.
Right.
Eric Gee (07:47):
Yeah, and and the parent is gonna be, no, you
don't understand.
I want you to not do it becauseyou should respect my authority
as the parent.
You should not be thinking thisway.
But that's just the way theythink.
And if you don't have that,like we wouldn't have effective
firefighters, we didn't wouldn'thave effective like pilots, we
wouldn't have effective peoplein roles that they have to take
calculated chances like that insituations where life doesn't
(08:10):
really have rules.
Like a fire does not have anyset rules.
You're in a house on fire, youdon't know what's gonna happen,
and you need to be able toadjust and make quick decisions
like that.
And the person who's constantlyneeds that feeling of safety
and security often does notnecessarily make the right
decisions, or they tend to getlike stuck, right?
So I think everyone has value.
Claude F (08:28):
Don't you think that firefighters do have a set of
rules?
I mean, they cannot do whateverthey want, or it can be worse
for their teammate.
So I like I like what you sayabout calculated risk, but I do
believe they still have rules.
Eric Gee (08:44):
They have they are set on their craft.
So it's the equivalent of let'ssay if you have a musician, the
rules that a musician followsare like look, this is like a
note, this is the scale.
You know, these are like thetechniques that I follow and
that I've worked on my entirelife.
But in terms of you telling mehow to make a song, no, I'm
gonna do it my way, right?
And then when I do this song,I'm not even gonna like let's
(09:05):
say I had a lot of success in myfirst album, you know, my
second album, I'm totally gonnachange it up and do things a
totally different way becausethat's who I am.
Because that personality pack,they don't value safety and
security, they value excitement.
And you can imagine when twopeople have those competing
values, how they might clash,right?
I always say, like, the personwho values excitement goes on a
roller coaster because they wantto feel like they might die.
(09:26):
They know they're not gonnadie, but they love that feeling
of maybe I might die because I'mgetting thrown around.
Whereas the person who valuessafety and security is like, why
would I ever want to feel thatway at all?
They tend to actually get alongreally well together.
That's the most common couple,romantic coupling, by the way.
Yes, exactly, because they knowthe person who values safety
and security, they might seem alittle boring.
So if they match up withsomeone just like them, they
(09:47):
might be like, Oh God, we'regonna have a boring life
together.
They love that person who'sreally exciting and fun.
And then, of course, theexciting person's like, well,
they realize I can't havesomeone like me.
We're gonna burn hot and we'regonna burn fast.
Like every Hollywood romance,right?
Like actors tend to be likethat.
Actors tend to be thatpersonality pack that likes
excitement.
So they burn hot and fast, butso often they look for someone
(10:08):
who's a little steadier, and sothey balance each other.
Jess K (10:10):
That totally feels like us.
I'm the boring one.
You're the stable.
I wouldn't say boring.
Claude F (10:16):
I would say the one that likes security.
Yeah, I need rules, otherwise,I'm going insane.
Eric Gee (10:21):
I could sense that from your questions.
Claude F (10:23):
Yeah.
Eric Gee (10:24):
You're the bird, you're the bird.
No one likes really that's thebest comparison I can come up
with.
Jess K (10:29):
We do need birds in our world, though.
Yeah, we do.
We do.
I totally agree.
Exactly.
I'm like, you need rules.
Oh sorry, firefighters haverules.
I mean, this also to bring itback to the majority of our
people are more in corporateAmerica, and this does feel very
similar to that, too, right?
We're not defending againstfires every day.
(10:50):
It feels like it.
Yeah, they think we are.
They think we are.
But the same thing, like, thereare so many times where we're
stuck having to stick to therules, yeah, and then you hear
me complaining because I'm like,I just want to do this instead
of that.
Why do I have to jump through18 hoops to get to this one
thing when it's right there?
It's right there.
(11:10):
And me, I would be like, well,because it's a process.
Yes.
Eric Gee (11:16):
I'm like, Yeah, depending on the sector, right?
The sector, your sector couldhave a lot of different
personalities too within it.
And they tend to do like Iworked with a lot of software
for engineering companies, andyou have the ones that work nine
to five and have a very steady,like organized, like structure.
They know when they're gonnago, they know what their
objectives and they're trying tohit, and they lead teams to try
to reach these objectives andkeep everyone together.
(11:36):
But you also have like thefirefighters who are on 24-7,
and I think they're called insoftware engineering terms,
they're called the knock team,if I'm correct.
And they go in there if there'sa problem with the website.
So they gotta be on 24-7,right?
Because people are on the web24-7.
So if there's a problem, theyget in there right away and fix
it.
And they like it, they lovebeing on there.
Jess K (11:55):
Like Eric, I when people come to you for these quizzes,
what's the most common reasonthey're coming?
Is it because of team dynamics?
Is it just to learn?
What would be the rationale?
Eric Gee (12:07):
Depending on who it is, but probably the majority of
people just want to know whothey should hook up with.
I think that's the number onething.
They're like, okay, whatpersonality am I, and who should
I be looking for?
Who should I bang tonight?
Oftentimes, what they'rethinking about.
Jess K (12:19):
Not the answer I was expecting.
Eric Gee (12:21):
I've had like, I've done talks at a professional
office, and I do the whole like,oh, this is how you guys are
gonna work together, and this iswhy this person is bossy, in
quotes, and this is why thisperson is a little more
free-flowing, and justappreciate it, guys.
And I'm having this wholediscussion, and then at the way
in, I'm like, oh, does anyonehave any questions?
And then the first question, soif I'm this type, who should I
be looking for as a mate?
(12:41):
That's the number one questionthat people ask.
I don't have any set answersbecause I don't believe in a
soulmate per se.
I do think that certain typesdo gel better with other types,
and it's not going to be a typethat's like you.
You're gonna get definitelysick or annoyed with a type
that's exactly like you.
Jess K (12:56):
Well, it could not be with a type like me.
That would definitely set meoff.
Eric Gee (13:00):
Yeah, which is good.
That's your natural instincts,right?
Like in general, peopleunderstand that, but that's
generally what people want.
And I don't know who theyshould up with.
But I often work with students,and with the students, I'm
really just teaching them how togrow into the best possible
version of themselves versus thebest possible version of what
they're being told they shouldbe like.
Jess K (13:17):
That is a great segue into where our WordQuesting
community is and how they allwant to level up their skill
set, knowing the different typesof personalities, what are some
of the things that they willlearn from that too will help
them get to that next level.
Eric Gee (13:29):
When it comes to the next level, we often think of
skills, right?
But with personality, it'sgreat because it's not, I think
a lot of people like learningabout personality types because
they want to know what I am goodat.
And I'm like, well, justbecause you're a certain
personality doesn't mean you'reautomatically going to be
brilliant at one thing.
I have a friend who is the samepersonality type as Einstein,
and he's always like, I'm thesame personality type in
(13:50):
Einstein, but that doesn'tautomatically make anyone like
our personality type a genius.
Einstein was a genius.
He's like, I know a hell of alot about fantasy football and
massage therapy.
So I'm just a nerd about thosetwo things.
That is what I am, because it'sthat type really loves
information.
That's what they seek, andthey're total nerds about it,
which you can imagine someonelike that would be very much
like Einstein, right?
(14:11):
But the nice thing aboutpersonality, it tells us kind of
what we're gonna like.
And the things that we like, wetend to do more often.
So, what I would recommend yourlisteners is find out what
personality type you are,because ideally you might be
doing something that maybeyou're forcing yourself to like,
and maybe finding out yourpersonality type will help you
go, oh, that makes sense becauseI've always liked to do things
like this, and it'll give youalmost like a permission slip to
(14:35):
actually pursue those things.
And the more you do them, thenthe better we get, and thus our
skills rise.
Claude F (14:39):
And so the framework is utopia 16.
Doesn't mean that it's 16personality.
Eric Gee (14:46):
And that's gonna be a number that's familiar to a lot
of people because the MBTI, theMyers-Briggs, also uses that.
But my methodology is verydifferent to get to those 16
different types.
And in the book, it explainsthe differences.
So in a Myers-Briggs, thedifference between I'm gonna be
saying a lot of random lettershere, the difference between an
ENTP and an INCP would be inMyers-Briggs' terms, one would
(15:06):
be extroverted and the otherwould be an introverted version.
Um, in my methodology, it'scompletely different based on
their value system.
And since those types valueinformation, then the difference
in personality is gonnamanifest itself in that way.
Jess K (15:19):
Is there something that like is similar to being
introvert versus extrovert thatyou would be able to tell from a
value statement?
Eric Gee (15:26):
So mine breaks down because depending on what
personality type you are, uhyou'll get that way in a very
different methodology.
Introversion, extroversion doestend to work.
And I explain it in the bookfor like half the population,
because that population thatvalues safety and security,
their number one way that theyget that safety and security is
being part of a structuredsociety, right?
They're very involved in thesocial system.
(15:47):
So thus extroversion,introversion does kind of have a
priority for them, right?
How do they interact withpeople in a social situation?
But if your value system isinformation, you could care less
about people and personalityeffects.
Sometimes that often is thecase where they're just like, I
don't care about I'm here forinformation.
And then people say, Oh,they're autistic, or they're
serial killers or sociopaths,you know, and it's a small
(16:08):
percentage of the population,too, so they get kind of pushed
off to the side.
Um, but we need people likethat.
Einstein was that way.
The difference will be the waythat that extroversion,
introversion manifests istotally different.
It would be like the differencebetween an experimental
physicist and a theoretical.
One gets the processes orinformation by experimenting and
trying different things, andthe other processes information
by theorizing and observing.
Claude F (16:29):
What does value mean?
Is it like when you see thevalues?
Is it because my value is likethe picket fans and all that?
So, how do you define values?
Eric Gee (16:40):
I define values based on what do we want, right?
So it's not the what, but thewhy, right?
So you could have multimultiple writers.
You could see they're doing thesame thing, but they're not the
same personality type justbecause they're writing, right?
No one sees Hemingway andthinks he's the same as Tolstoy.
Someone who values safety andsecurity might want the white
picket fence, or they might wantsomething else that gives them
safety and security.
They might want to move up intheir job and level up in their
(17:01):
job and have like authoritywithin that job sector.
That person who wants thatsafety and security through a
job versus the person who wantsthat safety, security versus the
white picket fence with afamily, they can often be very
similar, right?
Because they have the samevalue system and they're gonna
get along and they're gonnaunderstand each other very well.
Speaking for my mom, who wasthat person who valued authority
(17:22):
and wanted safety and securityfrom feeling like she was
important, she did move up theranks in her work environment,
but she didn't necessarily lovebeing a mother.
That wasn't her priority.
And a lot of other people wholove being parents would be
like, oh my God, I can't believethat.
But she was a good parent.
She did everything she wassupposed to, but that wasn't a
particular value system for her.
But she would totally get alongwith someone who valued that
because she would see, oh, weboth value safety and security.
(17:43):
Whereas the person who valueslike information, there's going
to be a big conflict.
Jess K (17:47):
All right, I get that.
In in your framework, can yougive us examples of other
well-known or even fictionalcharacters and what they style
they would be in your in your 16framework so we kind of get a
sense?
Eric Gee (18:00):
I mean, I sometimes use comic book.
Almost everyone's seen theAvengers and Marvel stuff.
So I'll use that sometimes.
Like Iron Man.
Iron Man's a very clearexample, someone who prioritizes
information.
And Captain America is someonewho prioritizes safety and
security.
And it's kind of cool becauseyou can see their clash.
They're both heroes, they bothwant what's right, but they have
very, very differentmethodologies of how to get
(18:21):
there.
Whereas like Captain America isall about sacrifice because
that's a very strong valuesystem of his.
Uh Captain Iron Man is moreabout sacrifice, it's great, but
it's also kind of stupid.
I'm all about information, soI'm gonna troubleshoot this.
What's the line where CaptainAmerica is like, would you fall
on a wire to sacrifice to helpthe guy behind you?
Iron Man's like, I'll justfigure out a way to cut it.
And we but we need both thosepeople, right?
(18:42):
We we need both those.
That's very uh important.
Claude F (18:45):
And that can like you say before, you know, those two
people can learn from eachother.
Eric Gee (18:50):
Yes, yes, that's the important thing, too, is I'm a
big believer in growth.
Once you're very secure in whoyou are, it's good to borrow
from other types because they'regonna have strengths that you
do not have.
I always say our strengths arebased on our weaknesses.
My personality type, my bigflaw was that I get super
excited and enthusiastic aboutstuff, and I start a lot of
things, and I don't finish anyof them.
So it's good to know thatbecause you can consciously I'm
(19:12):
like, okay, I need to finish atleast some of the things that I
start.
Now I'm not gonna be able tofinish all of them.
I know that about me, but Ican't be like that dog, like
playing with a toy and then afrisbee gets thrown and I go
chase the frisbee all the time,right?
And there are other types whoare like constantly, they don't
start anything that they can'tfinish.
So I can learn a lot from thattype, and I can ask them, oh,
like, how are the ways that youfinish the things that you
(19:33):
start?
And then they can teach you,oh, I I make a plan and all that
kind of stuff.
And you don't have to do allthose things, but I think it's
good to borrow some of thosethings so that we can grow.
Jess K (19:40):
Right.
You can learn from each other.
I love that.
So I'm curious if you have anidea of what you think our two
types are.
Eric Gee (19:46):
Well, you you gave it away already a little bit.
So I mean, I love to guess thatwhen uh you were asking the
questions about, but we have tofollow the rules, right?
Because there has to be order,right?
You can't have non-order.
That definitely shows that yourvalue system is safety and
security.
I'd imagine like your greatestfear is chaos or just things
like with no absolute rules atall.
Claude F (20:05):
Well, yeah, because I'm a mess in my mind.
No, it's true.
I'm a mess in my mind.
So I need exactly I need orderand processes all over.
I'm going to be all over theplace.
Like you see my desk, it's likeuh a bomb came up, but I have
to like otherwise I need processor it won't work for me.
Eric Gee (20:29):
Here's a question
authority?
Like, like do you believe inlike a structure of authority?
Like I follow the person aboveme, and then they follow the
person above them, and so forth.
Claude F (20:40):
Well, when you say yes, I still have this respect,
right?
I'm not going, I'm never goingto say you're an idiot to my
superior because they are mysuperior, right?
At the end of the day.
So I am going to say if I don'tagree with something, I will
say it.
Jess K (20:57):
I don't agree because one, two, and three
respectfully.
Claude F (21:01):
But if at the end they say no, it's going to be my
way, then I'm like, okay, I saymy point of view, peace out.
Jess K (21:09):
Would you ever quit a job if it got really that bad
where they were like you have tojob and you're like, no, I
don't agree.
I quit a job because of a boss.
Oh terrible.
Well, not just the boss, but Imean like the the vanishing of
values.
Claude F (21:22):
No, because I tend to see the same value.
I had I think I had the samevalue as my boss.
Actually, except the last one.
That's why I left.
I didn't, yeah, I left.
Because I couldn't say my pointof view.
Got it.
Eric Gee (21:37):
Did you did you when you have you you've watched Game
of Thrones?
Claude F (21:40):
Yes, but or those I forgot who those people were.
You forgot a lot of?
Yeah, oh no.
We'll go bench watch it.
Eric Gee (21:46):
You should.
I have a there's a Game ofThrones test on my site so you
can figure out what Game ofThrones character you are.
Jess K (21:52):
Oh my god, I want to take that.
Eric Gee (21:53):
Yeah, it's funny because it's based on I mean,
yeah, you're an Arya Stark.
Okay, well, number one,everybody says they are Arya
Stark because she's so cool andeveryone likes her and she's
very lovely.
Jess K (22:03):
She's now in The Last of Us.
Eric Gee (22:06):
Uh Bella Ramsey?
Jess K (22:07):
Uh yes.
She was like the uh I forgetthe name of her character, but
yeah, I like she was.
Eric Gee (22:12):
She's a Mormon.
Yeah, she's a moron.
So for you, like but youdefinitely gelled with that
hunter.
So I call them gatherers andhunters, the two packs that
value safety and security, andone values excitement.
Because I kind of use it basedon our roles in medieval
villages, right?
We need most of all, we needthe most gatherers, so that's
why we have more gatherers inthe world, right?
And then we need a lot ofhunters as well, but hunting is
(22:34):
dangerous, so some of them die.
And kind of like in oursociety, hunting jobs or
hunting, jobs are not to saythat you're you have a short
lifespan or expected lifespan,but sometimes they tend to take
jobs.
My sister's a hunter.
The first job she got out ofcollege was on a deep-sea
Alaskan fishing boat, and that'sactually a dangerous job.
Now, she was not actually likethe fisherman because she was
(22:54):
not physically strong enough,but that's like the she was on
the boat, she was in Alaska, andshe was like checking out the
like what the their catch to seeif like they were supposed to
catch it or they weren't.
That's a job that a hunter,like who a person who likes
excitement, would like.
They're just like, no, I don'twant a nine to five, I want to
go on a boat for like fourmonths out of the year, you
know?
So I I understand.
So you seem a littlehunter-ish, but since you like
(23:15):
that character, the Mormoncharacter, but you only because
you said she was badass, right?
Like if she's really tough, youmaybe might be like Arya Stark.
Aria Stark's a sharkpersonality type, and she's a
hunter.
Hunters are like the largerpack, and then there's four
animals within each of the fourpacks.
So four times four, of course,makes 16.
So the shark is one of thehunters, and they they're pretty
(23:37):
tough and they're aggressive,even though you don't seem to
come off as mean.
So I don't know if you're ashark.
Sharks sometimes come off asmean.
Would you say you're more howwould how do you come off?
Jess K (23:46):
I don't know.
In the work environment, I canbe mean?
Yeah.
Claude F (23:49):
I don't think you're mean in the work environment.
No.
Jess K (23:52):
I'm very straightforward.
Eric Gee (23:54):
One of the flaws of a shark is that they're stubborn
because a shark is like, okay, Imean I see what I want, I kill
it.
You know, like they're very,you know.
Yeah, I mean, they're very sotheir stubbornness is negative,
right?
But they're positive.
The positive part of that isthey're also like really
determined, right?
So Arya, of course, is likesuper determined.
Is she pretty narrow-minded?
Sometimes she can be, right?
And she's and it hurts her abit, and she's a bit reckless
(24:14):
sometimes.
Um, other sharks on Game ofThrones are like Tyrion's friend
Braun, he's a shark.
Jamie Lannister is not a shark,but he's similar in a lot of
ways.
Anyway, I'm sorry, I don't wantto keep using pop culture
references that people willprobably not understand, but
just it helps relate a littlebit more.
Claude F (24:28):
Yeah, I kind of get it more.
Those value, are you born withit, or it just happened like
with what happened with yourlife?
What do you think?
Before I'm going to say thatbecause I was um rhythmic
gymnast from my youth, doingcompetition and everything.
You need orders, like we hadour um choreographer saying, You
(24:53):
jump, we say, How high?
Right?
There was no saying she wasRussian too.
So, I mean, I'm sure she'sstill Russian, but so she was
very metallical, and it was likeyou do that authoritative, and
you had no choice but follow therules or you were out, which
brought us to higher so thatshaped my personality as well,
(25:19):
because I was like from the ageof 11 to 18 to know that I had
to follow the rules of someone.
The hierarchy.
So that's why it doesn't meanthat you wouldn't have had that.
I would not have had it beforeor would have.
Eric Gee (25:34):
I I don't know.
And the question of whetherwe're born with it or not, I
have no answer to that because Idon't know.
I do think there's a differencebetween I say our personality
is based on like what we grew upwith, like what we're taught,
but also our personality type,right?
Because I always say peopleoften say, Oh, I'm part of this
culture, how this culture is,right?
But I know what the stereotypeof that culture is, but for
(25:57):
every Japanese person who likedoes not like physical touch and
will bow and is not gonna hugyou, there's a peacock
personality type because theymake up like 8% of the
population, and peacocks alwayslove to hug.
Once again, Game of Thrones,they're like Robert Barackhean,
the big king, the big fat kingwho loves to bear hug everybody.
And if they grow up in Japan asa kid, they're gonna have
(26:20):
problems.
Like their parents are gonnasay, no, no, no, this is the
proper way to do it, and they'regonna kind of feel like left
out.
And on the flip side, I have afriend who's Cuban, and in Latin
culture, it's oftentimes a lotabout kissing and hugging your
friend family, and he's a shark,so he's like, do not touch me.
This is my space, do not dothat.
But he's forced to.
And so I do think it's amixture of that, where sometimes
(26:42):
how we're brought up is notnecessarily what totally matches
our personality, and that canbe unhealthy for us.
And part of our growth processis learning those things are
important and they make us whowe are, but also this is
actually my personality type.
And maybe now that I'm 40 or 50or 60 or whatever, I want to
explore this and be truly happy.
Claude F (27:02):
Maybe if I wasn't into the safety, I would not have
continued the sport because itwould not have gone with my
values.
That's it.
Jess K (27:10):
I I was gonna say, I think it's a little bit of both.
Yeah, your upbringing helpsbring some of this out to light,
but I don't think your yourfamily values create your own
values, it just helps you figurethem out.
Claude F (27:23):
Yeah.
Jess K (27:24):
Because I think the element is you.
That's what makes us also aunique and individual.
It's thinking how manyfamilies, think of my own, like
all my siblings have verydistinct personalities.
Do we all mesh and get along?
Yeah, but politically we're notall the same.
Like we're all very different,and we were all both raised by
the same two parents.
Claude F (27:42):
Oh, yeah, my sister and I are totally different.
Jess K (27:44):
So I think I think it's both, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Gee (27:47):
I love using like how you use your siblings.
That's the whole point of mybook, too, is like I'm saying
things that I want people toidentify with, not because
they're reading it and they'regoing, oh, I'm gonna listen to
these things, but more likereading and going, like they
start saying, Oh, I know thisperson, and obviously, who do we
know more than our family andour siblings and our parents,
right?
That's the number one thing.
And you know, I said before,and it was kind of jokingly that
people want to know who theywant to hook up with.
And that actually is truly thefirst question that people have.
(28:10):
But if they're being honest,like the second one is if
they're parents, they're alwaysgonna go, like, oh, no wonder
why my kid is like, this is thekid that I hate, and this is the
kid I love, you know, like theystart going, oh, it's not
because this kid's an asshole.
Yeah, they well, they they theydo say that way jokingly,
right?
They're like, No wonder I hatemy son.
It's more like, oh, okay,because we probably have
(28:31):
competing personalities, whereasthis other kid, we're more
similar.
Oftentimes, the parents, likeout of my teachers, the ones who
were parents were the ones whogot it right away when when I
taught them this, they werelike, Oh, I totally understand
this because now I know how totreat my children differently.
And sometimes they're alreadytreating their children
differently, just instinctively,right?
Because they're like, Okay,this is not gonna work with this
kid, so I gotta use differentthings.
(28:52):
My father treated us alldifferently, and he knew nothing
about personality tax, but Ithink he instinctively did.
And so he gave my sister allthe freedom in the world.
He called me dumb shit for myentire life because he knew that
I worked best with a chip on myshoulder, and then my little
brother's nickname was Mr.
Wonderful.
Those are all differentmethodologies, and they all
worked because he knew that myyounger brother, he loved safety
and security, so he needed thatcomfort zone.
(29:13):
He, you know, if you tweak ittweaked him a little bit, that
would not be very effective,right?
But for me, like I work onprinciple.
So thus he wanted to like tweakthat because he knew that I
would work better and be highlymotivated if I felt like I was
being wronged in some way.
So that worked.
We can all learn how to workwith um understand our family
better through personality.
Jess K (29:33):
Well, and I think work-wise too, right?
Yeah.
When you're thinking about youmanage a team, maybe the only
slight difference isunderstanding based on where you
are in the pecking order,right?
The oldest, the middle, theyoungest does play into it too.
And I think some of yourpersonalities shift and parent
parenting styles shift becauseof that.
But from a workwise, you couldrelate that to those that have
(29:53):
been in your team for a while,those that are anywhere.
Claude F (29:58):
And and you you have to manage differently.
Depending on the personality.
On the personality and what isgoing to drive that person.
Their values.
Jess K (30:06):
It comes back to the values.
You're right.
Claude F (30:07):
Exactly.
Jess K (30:08):
You're right.
Because you can think aboutlike there's certain individuals
that are they are amazingindividuals, but not as
motivated as the rest.
And it's because of theirvalues.
And how do you get them torelate to the work in a
different way?
Because it's not going to bethe same as somebody who's a
rule follower.
You just tell them the rulesand they go with it.
Eric Gee (30:25):
And mention the two packs that make up about half
the population and a third, butthat leaves about like 15 to 16
percent of people.
And there's those make thereare two packs within those 15 or
16%.
So those are, for lack of abetter term, minority packs.
When you encounter people likethat, it's often like people are
like, wait, what is thisperson?
Who is this person?
Like, why are they so weird?
You know, and I say weird, I'mone of the packs, so I've gotten
(30:47):
that quite a bit actually.
It can throw people off,especially in a work
environment.
You're like, wait, what iswrong with this person?
Why are they so different interms of their motivation
structure than everyone else?
And so it's it behooves us tolike understand all the types,
and especially because thosetypes do tend to get lost
because of the dichotomy thateveryone knows is that the bird
and earny, the odd coupledichotomy, that's a very common
one, and people kind ofunderstand that, you know.
(31:08):
And once again, that makesabout 85% of the population, but
there is that other 15% that,you know, where the Einsteins go
into or the, I don't know, likethe very spiritual people go
into.
Jess K (31:18):
Eric, what's the most common personality type for
leaders?
And then like give us examplesof like maybe an eccentric
leader like Elon Musk versus amore common leader?
Eric Gee (31:29):
That's a great question because you know, it
goes back to that whole likepeople like, oh, what
personality type am I?
Because I want to know what I'mgood at.
Leading is great because justlike writing, I think everybody,
every personality type can be aleader in their own way, but
they're gonna, it's best forthem to lead in their own way,
the one, the style that fits forthem, right?
So if you're a stag personalitytype, so that's part of the
(31:49):
gatherer pack, the safety andsecurity, you're gonna lead, I
won't say through fear.
At your worst, you're gonnalead through fear, but you're
gonna lead with authority.
You're gonna be like, hey, I'min charge, and orders go down.
My mom was that type.
So she was a school principal,and so I always told her, like,
yeah, you're big on authority.
She's like, No, I don't care.
And I'm like, okay, what ifsomeone parked in your parking
space?
Because she would have aparking space, right?
(32:10):
The best parking space at herschool, right?
And she's like, Yeah, but noone would ever do that.
I'm like, see, that's exactlythat mentality that no one would
ever park in your parkingspace, shows exactly how you
think.
That this is my I'm theauthority, right?
Um but there are other typesthat lead in, like, so Elon Musk
is a great example.
He is a Smith.
Smiths are part of thatpersonality pack that value
information.
So they're the ones that oftenpeople think are artistic or
(32:32):
sociopaths, because they often,if you ask a Smith, like I had a
parent ask me once because herkid was a Smith, and she's like,
Is there something wrong withhim?
I mean, no, he's totally fine.
This is his personality.
Because what she said was,she's like, Oh, I was in this
dress and I was getting readyfor a party, and I asked him,
How do I look?
And he said, terrible.
And then she was like, What?
And he's like, Well, you asked.
And she's like, Yeah, I she wastelling me, she's like, I
(32:53):
expect him to say, like, youlook great, mom.
And I'm like, Well, you know,he just he took you.
Claude F (32:58):
Why do you ask?
Eric Gee (32:59):
Yeah, exactly.
He was like, Well, you he felthis best version of being a son
was giving you an honest answer.
So, but punch that up to athousand in terms of like things
that offend people, and that'swhen you get like people in the
public sphere who are likeSmiths, and people are like, Oh
my god, are they autistic?
So he leads through hispriorities information, so he's
kind of leading through that.
He's a chimpanzee personalitytype.
Are they the best leaders?
(33:19):
They're great at like leadingthrough innovation and kind of
going, look, this is how I lead.
I'm gonna give you guys ideasand this we're gonna follow.
Am I gonna care about yoursocial life?
Am I gonna care about yourfamily?
Sorry, no, I don't care.
Like, I just want us to createthe best invention possible.
So, Steve Jobs, samepersonality as Elon Musk, known
for not being the most sensitiveof individuals.
But as long as you understandthat and understand what they
(33:39):
bring to the table andappreciate that, then I think
that's like a start, right?
They're not gonna be the peoplewho care about, who ask you
about your wife and kids or youryou know, husband and kids.
Claude F (33:48):
So the goal to know the personality, those
personalities ultimately how toknow how to communicate with
them, correct?
Eric Gee (33:56):
Yes, that's like a really great um like skill set
to have through personality, islike, because you're gonna know
like everyone communicates at adifferent level too, based on
our values.
And some people are abstractcommunicators, some people are
concrete.
That's probably the biggestdivide.
And about 85% of the populationare concrete.
For an abstract person, they'reused to assimilating, right?
They're used to being aroundpeople who say, Oh, what did you
(34:18):
eat today?
Oh, well, I ate a bagel andcream cheese, and I got it at
this place, and it's one of myfavorite places.
And I go there every morningand I drive there in my this car
that I bought at thisdealership or online.
Like they're used to those veryconcrete conversations, but an
abstract conversation is verydifferent and difficult,
sometimes difficult for concretepeople.
I was once with like four of myteachers with one concrete
(34:39):
person and three abstractpeople, which is a very uncommon
situation, like in generalpopulation.
And they just one personstarted talking about John
Carpenter, and then anotherperson started jumping on top of
that about oh, this is myfavorite movie because I love
the theme of this, and when theydid this, and and the concrete
person was just like, she'slike, Oh my god, like, are these
people aliens?
Like, what am I listening toright now?
Jess K (34:57):
Where are they going?
Eric Gee (34:58):
Yeah, what is going on with this conversation?
So it just so likecommunication, sorry, that was a
long-winded answer, but I thinkknowing whether you're a
concrete personality type or anabstract personality type also
helps because I think it's goodto be able to do both if
possible, but still stay true toyourself as well at the same
time.
Claude F (35:16):
What is the communication for abstract?
Eric Gee (35:19):
So, abstracts they tend to like to talk about their
feelings and ideas, and that'soften how concrete people treat
abstract people is like, no, no,I don't care about all that
abstract stuff.
Let's go to nuts and bolts.
Like, how is that affectinglike real people in their real
lives in the physical world?
And that's the difference.
Jess K (35:35):
That's helpful for sure.
Um, Eric, how would people findout about um these different 16
personalities?
What would you recommend forpeople to do if they're
interested in more?
Eric Gee (35:47):
Buy this wonderful book called The Power of
Personality.
You can find it on Amazon oranywhere you buy books, go to
Barnes and Noble, you can orderit from there or your local
bookstore.
If you're really interested inthis and you want to know more,
I would go on my website.
You can take the test at eitherI have two sites, business
site.
Um, one is projectutopia.com,and that's utopia with like YOU,
like YouTube.
(36:07):
Um, and the other isutopiaproject.com.
So you just flip them around,and you can actually take the
test on either of those sites.
And once you take the test andyou you'll get a description,
and if you like what you'rereading, and if it like gels
with you, and you think you canwant to learn more, then I
definitely recommend buying thebook because the book is
basically me teaching you how tobecome the test and read and
(36:28):
understand the people aroundyou.
Jess K (36:29):
So we did have one last question.
What's that one simple,powerful shift that you think
can help people show up betterto make themselves them, make
them more about themselves thisweek?
Eric Gee (36:41):
Or this this I would definitely recommend taking the
tests online, finding whatpersonality type you are,
reading the Porsche though, andseeing if it matches, because I
always say I always recommendfinding the one that speaks to
you.
Because once you find whatspeaks to you, then for this
week, at least do one thing thatyou really enjoy.
Like, not something that you hafeel like you have to do,
because I think so much of ourlives we're told what we have to
(37:03):
do, but think of something thatyou truly want to do.
Oh, today's the first day thatI'm gonna meditate.
Find that one thing you want todo today based on your
personality type.
Jess K (37:12):
Huge thank you to Eric G for helping us rethink how we
show up at work and in life.
Claude F (37:17):
Because personality isn't something to fix, it's the
foundation for connection,clarity, and growth.
Jess K (37:23):
Whether you're navigating team tensions or just
trying to feel more yourself atwork.
And remember, self-knowledgeisn't a luxury, it's a really
dossier tool.
So tag your work bestie andtake that utopia 16 assessment
together.
You might be total opposites ora perfect treason piece.
And if you've ever been told totone it down to fit in, this is
(37:48):
your reminder.
Your difference is your edge.
Follow us at Work Besties WhoPodcasts for more conversations
that help you show up at workand in life with confidence and
clarity.
And a whole lot more you.
Thank you.
Remember, whether you'reswapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings, or just
sending that perfectly timedmeme.
(38:09):
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude F (38:13):
So keep lifting each other up, laughing through the
chaos, and of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive, and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Work besties!
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