July 21, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, we’re joined by Jen Hardy and Irina Alexander of MotivAction and co-hosts of the Life by Choice podcast to talk about one of the most overlooked truths in burnout: It’s not just internal — it’s relational.
Jen and Irina open up about their personal experiences with burnout, compassion fatigue, and the emotional toll of always saying “yes.” They share their transformative journey toward healing, highlight the importance of emotional literacy, and offer practical tools like their CARES framework to support resilience and self-awareness.
You’ll walk away with:
- A new lens on burnout (it shows up in how we communicate)
- Tools to strengthen your emotional vocabulary
- Strategies to pause before saying yes
- The courage to have more vulnerable, honest conversations at work and beyond
Takeaways:
- Burnout can manifest in many ways, including silence or over-commitment
- Communication style shifts under pressure
- Emotional literacy helps us process burnout, not just survive it
- The CARES model provides actionable healing tools
- Healing happens in connection — not isolation
🎙️ Sound Bites:
- "I had compassion fatigue."
- "Guilt and shame live in silence."
🔗 Resources:
- Learn more about MotivAction https://motivaction.academy/
- Listen to the Life by Choice Podcast https://www.youtube.com/@Life-By-Choice
🎧 Subscribe, share, and send this to a work bestie who might need a moment of real talk.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:00):
Burnout doesn't happen in a vacuum.
It happens in connections.
Today we have Jen Hardy andIrina Alexander, who are going
to help us unpack why healingisn't just internal, it's
relational.
As you listen, ask yourself whodo you need in your corner when
it all feels like way too much.
Stay tuned to the very end aswe ask these two powerhouses the
(00:23):
one thing to do today that willlift yourself out of that
burnout, together with your workbestie.
Claude (00:30):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:38):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties, welcome.
We're so excited to have you,thank you ladies, Thank you.
I thought we'd kick off first,Jen, asking you a question
around what was your personalpowerful burnout story?
Jen Hardy (01:01):
That would be the days that I was sleeping in my
car for two to three hours inthe middle of my day.
Jess (01:08):
I feel like there's a backstory there.
Jen Hardy (01:11):
There is right.
I was a teacher and a coach for12 years.
Halfway through that career,during a run for a state title,
a second state title I had beendriving to the church around the
corner to sleep in my car foranywhere from two to three hours
, depending on how much of aplanning period lunch, study
hall that I had all groupedtogether at once just to make it
(01:32):
for the day and survive througheach day and show up how I
needed to show up.
After that happened over andover and over again, in the
middle of playoffs, it was likethis is not normal.
This can't just be part of thejob, right, because there's
often people who are like, oh,you're just in playoff season,
you're just in season, right, Ihear that all the time in
different professions.
(01:52):
Oh, this is not normal, this isnot okay.
I finally had to take a look atwhat's really going on here and
I was just overdoing it.
I was a yes syndrome girl, as Ilike to say it.
I was a yes syndrome girl, as Ilike to say it.
I was saying yes to all thethings very much defined by
productivity how much you do isis your worth, and those are
some of the things that westarted to uncover as as we
(02:14):
moved through this healingjourney and, and this burnout,
having to recuperate and sleep,is it because it was really long
hours of work but and duringthe night, not being able to
sleep because you cannot shutoff your, your?
Yes, long hours being a teacherand a coach.
Obviously there were extendedhours before school and after
(02:37):
school, sometimes till midnightwith driving the bus.
But for me it was alsocompassion fatigue.
Working with students, workingwith athletes whose parents
aren't around or who aren'tshowing up the way they need
them to.
You're expected to beeverything they need in that
moment when you care right andreally show up for these kids in
the way that they need.
(02:57):
So it wasn't so much for methat I couldn't shut my brain
off or couldn't go to sleep.
In fact I'd get home and I'dsleep so hard like it was hard
to get up in the morning.
But I know for a fact that Ihad compassion fatigue.
I was overwhelmed with how muchof me needed to be there for
these kids and I didn't have thetools and the skills to
navigate the energy that wasbeing taken to do that.
Jess (03:19):
And Irina, I hear you have also a powerful burnout story
as well.
That happened separately in adifferent, distinct way.
What was your wake up call?
Irina Alexander (03:28):
My wake up call was as I was driving on
highway and I called my mom andI said, mom, I'm coming home.
And she was like what do youmean?
Who died?
Because by that time I haven'tbeen home in nine years.
And so that was my big moment.
I took my kids and I went backhome to my homeland, russia, and
(03:49):
spent there a few weeks, andafter I came back, I said, okay,
I don't want to do it anymore.
It was great, it was a greatjourney, it was a great business
, but I am done and I don't wantto do what I've been doing.
Jess (04:02):
Okay, so you guys didn't go through burnout together, but
it sounds like you both got toa breaking point and found each
other on the other side.
Did the connection between youtwo start and get to this point?
Jen Hardy (04:15):
We both ended up finding NLP Neuro Linguistic
Programming as a trainingmodality that we both got
involved in back in 2019, 2020as a personal development
journey, and neither one of uswent because we wanted to be
coaches or trainers or doanything.
We went because we were justcurious.
I was a little bit ahead ofIrina in terms of jumping in.
I was at her practitioner as acoach and the first time I met
(04:39):
her I couldn't stand her.
I just thought she was such astuck-up bitch and I couldn't.
She would sit in the back, likethe thing I always joke about.
That I remember the most as acoach at the training when we
were supposed to usher everybodyback to their seats when it's
time to get back into thelessons, and that's when arena
would get up and go to the backof the room and open a bag of
(05:01):
chips and start eating the chipsin the back of the room,
because she was a huge what wecall mismatcher back then, so
she'd love to do the opposite ofwhat everybody else was doing.
Somebody would always be likesomeone go tell her to sit down
and we'd all be like, yeah, no,I don't talk to her, oh my gosh
(05:24):
so along that line of her beingthe mismatcher, I think the
trainers knew that, and so theytreated her extra special in the
fact that she got to skipmasters and come straight to
trainers training, which iswhere we actually met.
We actually got put in the samegroup.
We ended up partnered togetherin a very emotionally intense
exercise that we jokingly butalso seriously say that we got
(05:48):
anchored to each other in a veryemotionally bonding way and
ever since then we've been superclose and been very supportive
of each other and it juststarted to grow from that place.
We came out of there both goingto do different things, but
always going and supporting theother one at their training in
whatever way we could, or theirevents, and then we started hey,
let's do an event together.
(06:09):
This has been an interestingjourney to do alone.
Let's try some together.
We did more and more and moretogether and then we got to.
She got to a point where sheasked me do you want to just do
this together?
And uh, that was what august2023 that we officially joined
(06:32):
forces and said let's do this.
To say it hasn't been a journeyto figure out how to be with
each other as two very likestrong type, strong women, uh,
would be alike.
The skills and the tools thatwe have have allowed us to
really navigate and create areally intimate and beautiful
friendship.
Jess (06:45):
That's amazing.
And, irina, let's hear yourside of the story.
What was your first impressionof Jen?
Irina Alexander (06:53):
I don't even remember her, I don't know which
one is worse.
It was the bitch as Jendescribed.
100% true, but I don't think weeven talked during that
training.
It was a seven-day-longtraining.
Can you believe seven day long?
I didn't think we communicatedor anything, but once we went
through the trainers andanchored to each other, that was
(07:14):
a beautiful journey being ableto trust another woman, because
we all came from a background ofsome betrayal and some other
issues and stories in the past.
So it's been very fascinatingto see us grow and heal each
other.
Can you remind me what kind oftraining was it again?
(07:34):
Nlp, neuro LinguisticProgramming.
Jen Hardy (07:37):
It's the base of what we host and what we do now as
well.
Jess (07:39):
Based off of this, it sounds like you guys decided to
do this, this.
It sounds like you guys decidedto do this, but it sounds in
addition to burnout, there mayhave been some boundaries that
you weren't necessarily creatingany self-leadership of who you
are in and of itself.
Now that you've taken thisclass, started teaching, what do
you feel are some of thoseearly signs others can see in
(07:59):
themselves?
Jen Hardy (08:00):
Some of the early signs that I don't think people
notice is over-productivity.
I call it yes syndrome.
I say that jokingly, but we dolive in a world where we're
rewarded for productivity, we'rerewarded for doing, doing,
doing, doing right we wear likea badge of honor until we're so
far run into the ground that wedon't even recognize when we're
(08:22):
saying yes anymore.
I mean, we had a woman in oneof our trainings that we still
laugh, that she was such apeople pleaser and such a say
yes, yes, yes, yes.
Without thinking we gave her atask that you have to pause for
five seconds before you say yesto something.
And then, like two minuteslater, one of the girls that was
there in the training was likehey, can I borrow your phone?
(08:42):
And she was like yep, here withno thought, literally two
minutes after we made the taskand the whole room just erupted
cracking up and it took her aminute to even catch it and she
was like it was so instinctualto just always say yes versus
pausing to notice.
Do I want to do this?
Should I do this?
Can I do this?
Do I have the energy andcapacity, the knowledge, all the
(09:03):
elements that we don't evenpause long enough for right.
We just go, go, go, go, go, gogo.
So maybe that's a sign is, ifyou notice, I'm going so fast,
so quick, that I don't evenremember what I've said yes to
what I'm doing, what I've done,it's just, it just becomes a
blur.
Claude (09:18):
How do you take that mindset away?
Because for a lot of peoplesaying yes, I think you're a
little bit like that too and Iam totally I'm a yes person.
How do you say no at this point?
Because it's hard right,Because then you're going to
have this fear of being fired ordisappointing, because that is
part of being a people pleaser.
(09:39):
You know you don't want todisappoint the other person,
because it's a badge of honoralso to be the good one.
How do you break?
Irina Alexander (09:46):
that.
How is that a problem?
How is that a problem to beseen as a person who says no?
And what is the purpose of yousaying yes?
All the time you have to askyourself and be honest with
yourself For what purpose areyou doing that?
And what would happen if yousay no?
Somebody gets disappointed.
So what?
How is that a problem to you?
(10:07):
That's true.
Claude (10:08):
It's not your problem if they are disappointed.
Irina Alexander (10:10):
Yeah, I mean, we choose to make it our problem
or choose to take it onourselves.
But is it really our problem?
Or you just kind of have afriend like me who, when Jen
says yes, you just like elbowher and saying do you really
want to do that?
Jess (10:26):
it also gives you the luxury of a pause to think does
this add value not only to you,but the role or what you're
doing?
you have the ability to say whyright because there is a lot of
times and I know what you saidI'm a yes person, but I don't
feel like I have been the lastcouple years in this role,
because I get inundated by somany things that I do say what,
what is that?
For Nine times out of 10,they're like none of your
(10:46):
business and I'm like well then,I don't need to do it, you can
do it.
I do believe to your point.
In addition, it's not that it'sbad to say no or to pause.
In my mind, it helps providethe clarity that's even needed
as to why you would be asked todo it yeah, it's definitely the
(11:08):
pause, right.
Jen Hardy (11:09):
You asked how do you do it?
How do you do it when you'realways wanting to be the one who
looks good or is valued, orwhatever the words are?
How you do it is you startpausing.
You have to pause long enoughto notice what am I thinking,
what am I feeling, what'shappening behind the scenes and
why I'm wanting to say yes.
(11:30):
So that's, the first step ispause.
Irina Alexander (11:33):
Stop being on autopilot, because a lot of
people are on autopilot thatautomatic reflex of yes or
saying yes or whatever it is.
So break that pattern.
Jen Hardy (11:43):
It doesn't even mean you're going to say that you're
not going to say yes the firsttime.
That's not even what we'resaying.
We're just saying just startpracticing, pausing and noticing
what happens.
Jess (11:53):
That's true.
You don't have to say yes toeverything.
It's the pause, because ifpeople really want it, they'll
come back and or they'll find away to do it themselves.
Claude (11:59):
And it doesn't mean that taking a pause means that
you're going to say no, it'sjust reflecting and not being on
autopilot which, when you'reeven in a burnout space, you're
on autopilot.
Jess (12:15):
You talked about how the yes person is tied to your
self-worth.
How do you entangle that fromthe achievement aspect?
What are kind of processes orways that you can work on that?
What are some ideas that ourwork besties can think about?
Jen Hardy (12:31):
It all boils down to?
What are you focusing on right?
Where is that coming from?
Are you choosing to achievethis because this is part of who
you want to be in the world andhow you desire to be seen, how
you desire to show up, but also,more importantly, how you want
to be in the world and how youdesire to be seen, how you
desire to show up, but also,more importantly, how you want
to feel right.
Or are you doing it to bevalued?
(12:53):
Are you doing it to be accepted?
Are you doing it to be seen asa leader and seen as an expert,
even when you aren't, or are youdoing it just to be known?
We have to take a minute tonotice.
What do I believe about thesethings, and where and why I'm
doing them, how I chose to dothem.
My journey as a teacher and acoach is actually an example,
(13:14):
because I didn't even go toschool to be a teacher and a
coach.
I actually went to go be astrength coach specifically.
I did not want to be a teacher.
Being a teacher scared the hellout of me and life happened the
way life happened and I becamea teacher and it kind of felt
like I had to.
I'm the type of person who'slike you put something in front
of me, I'm going to figure itout, I'm going to achieve it.
(13:35):
So I ended up being good at it.
That's what I realized when Igot to a point in my
self-development journey was I'mdoing what I wound up doing,
but do I want to do this?
When did I decide, like that,this is what I wanted to do, or
that this was my definition ofsuccess?
And it?
It never was.
It was fun and I was good at itand I had success.
But like what do I want to?
Claude (13:56):
do.
Did you enjoy it Right?
Jen Hardy (14:00):
That's the funny part I didn't get the fulfillment
and the success.
I didn't feel it the way Ithought I would feel it.
I mean, we won a statechampionship and within two days
I was already freaking outabout how do I do it again and
what the expectations are goingto be, and the weight of it.
I didn't even really enjoy it.
It was just yay, it was amazingfor 24 hours, 48 hours, and
(14:23):
then it was like, oh shit, I'mgoing to do it again.
I realized I didn't actuallychoose that path for myself.
I mean, I did in the reality ofrealities, right, but I fell
into it.
I ended up being good at it.
I'm doing what I wound up doing.
What else can I do?
So I leave?
I'm like, screw it, I'm leaving.
Jess (14:46):
I'm going to to find out that I'm a teacher and a coach,
just not in public education,but it sounds like in this
version of it you found apartner, so that has helped you.
Maybe that's some of yourlearning.
What are other things that, asyou guys, became a partner in a
business, especially as youmentioned early on as two very
strong individuals?
What did you learn about thatand helping you to redefine your
(15:07):
success and leadership?
Irina Alexander (15:08):
we joke that we are as close as we can be
except intimacy.
So we are like very, very closeand it's a relationship, and
any relationship it it takeswork.
So, learning each other,learning how to communicate,
learning each other's triggers,navigating each other's
(15:31):
situations right when we are inlife and what is happening.
I'm very individualistic,ego-driven person, or at least
used to be, and what it's liketo have a partner and
communicating with a partner, Imean we joke she's like.
You just need to at leastinform me, tell me what's
happening.
(15:51):
It's one thing when you run acompany by yourself, it's a very
different dynamic when there ismore than just you.
In a family dynamic, it's onething.
But in a family dynamic, it'sone thing.
But in a business, it's alsoextremely important and at the
same time, not to overcommunicate, because if Jen
starts over communicating withme, she knows that I roll my
eyes and I don't listen becauseI don't like to be over
(16:13):
communicated.
Is it really?
Claude (16:18):
what are we doing today?
I'm like, can you put?
She's like sissy me.
Jess (16:21):
What are we doing today?
I'm like I've emailed it to youfour times.
Claude (16:24):
And I'm like, please stop sissing me, it's
overwhelmed me.
Irina Alexander (16:28):
I mean, jen would really would like put a
bullet.
I was like, hey, can I get abullet points, because I will
not read all of that.
Or like the other day sherecorded five messages and then
she deleted them on and recordedone because she was like you
don't need all of that.
I was like, thank you.
So learning each other'scommunication style and
respecting it and don't take itpersonal Meeting each other
(16:51):
where we are, it's beenabsolutely beautiful and we
learn so much from each other,with each other, that we are
teaching other people as wellmuch from each other, with each
other, that we are teachingother people as well.
Jess (17:03):
I love that you brought up the communication, because I
feel like communication ingeneral is something all
relationships, work besties,partners and business um, you
know, personal relationships,all that you have to work on but
it becomes a little differentwhen it's under pressure too
right.
So communication can bedifficult on a normal day, but
then you've now got thispressure of work deadlines or
(17:23):
having to say yes or no topeople all the time.
So I'm curious from both ofyour perspectives, what are some
ways that, when it's apressured situation, our work
besties can learn how to takethat pause, or what are things
they can think about to helpbetter their communication?
Jen Hardy (17:41):
I'm going to share the conversational preframes
because I think they can changethe game and they're super easy.
Conversational preframes areactually our participants, our
students, our clients.
That's one of their favoritethings, but it's basically
either as the person who'sspeaking or as the person who's
going to be listening.
I'm going to pre-frame theconversation, especially when
(18:02):
it's got some intensity to it,to know how to best listen or
how to best serve, or how I needto be listened to.
Right, because so oftencommunication goes astray or
goes wrong because we'reassuming what the person needs.
Right, we're listening from ourfilters and what we need, to
feel safe and comfortable tonavigate this difficult
(18:23):
conversation, or how to get awayfrom it, for that matter.
Right, instead of how do Iactually be in this space with
this person and give them whatthey need, while I also get what
I need, whether I'm the speakeror the listener?
And so you prefront, you askthem do you just need to vent?
Do you need perspective?
Right, do you need me to be onyour side?
(18:46):
Perspective, vent, be on yourside or help you fix it, because
most people just want to vent,some people need help fixing it,
some people need perspectiveand some people just want you to
be their cheerleader.
That one actually is hard forsome people, because the key to
that is you have to be on theirside, even if you don't agree.
(19:08):
I have people who are like Ican't do that and I'm like cool,
then tell them you can't dothat, that's okay, I'm not your
person, if that's what you needand how it looks in reality is.
You know, I have a friend whocalls me.
I'm driving down I-35, she'sbawling like.
She's like I can't right andlike barely able to talk, and
I'm like this could take a longtime or I can make sure this is
(19:29):
efficient, effective and reallyserves her.
So I asked her to do boxbreathing.
I'm like hey, take a minute, dosome breaths.
I'm going to ask you a coupleof questions.
Let me know and I literallyjust asked her those four
questions which of these is bestgoing to serve you right now.
I listed them off and then shesaid well, I think the first
thing I need is to vent, becauseI haven't told anybody this and
(19:50):
I'm like got it.
She's like, but then I need youto help me figure out what to
do.
I know how to listen, I knowwhat she needs and I'm going to
be able that conversationfeeling so much better, right.
Claude (19:59):
That's true that a lot of time, when people just want
to vent, you don't want to hearhow to fix it.
Asking the question really canhelp that relationship and you
never think about it because youtend to go straight to where
your mind is right, but whichbecomes you.
It's what you want, but at theend of the day it is what the
(20:19):
other person needs, and askingthe question is so powerful it
is definitely changes the toneof the conversation too because
you're there for the person forwhat they actually need.
Jen Hardy (20:31):
the beautiful thing is because we're we are selfish
human beings.
Yeah, I'm also still gettingwhat I need as the one who's on
who just asked, as as thelistener, because now I'm not
and this is gonna sound bad, butit's not how I mean it.
I'm not wasting my time Likewe're not taking longer than we
need to diving into parts of theconversation that really don't
even need to be talked about.
The whole point of me trying tofix it immediately is maybe
(20:52):
because I'm uncomfortable and Ineed to get out of it, but in
reality, when I pre frame thisway, we both have our needs met
much more effectively andefficiently in this conversation
.
Jess (21:02):
Or you're wrongly assuming .
They just wanted the fix verseto vent and therefore you both
leave the conversation veryfrustrated.
So I think bringing it up atthe beginning is smart, because
then you both have theestablished understanding of
what the conversation and wherethe deliverables will go.
And it's funny because you thinkabout that like from a work
(21:24):
situation.
It should be more ingrained inconversation, but it works in
personal relationships.
You don't always think aboutthat from a friendship one
because you feel like you wouldknow them so well that you're
just assuming that you have anidea of why they chose you to
call.
Claude (21:36):
And I think it depends also on the men and between men
and women, right?
I think a lot of times the manwants to fix it, and that's
where in a relationship, that'swhere you get conflict also, as
in like I don't need you to fixit, I can fix it, just listen,
you know asking the questionwhat do you need me to do?
It's, it's very important mydad.
Jen Hardy (21:57):
my dad got to learn these from us and he was like
that's my favorite thing, that'sgoing to save me so much time
with you and your sister.
Jess (22:07):
It's true.
I feel like that's an amazingtip for everybody, regardless of
your personal relationships,professional, all that.
Another thing that we heardwhen we kind of investigated you
guys was your CARES framework.
Where did this CARES frameworkoriginate and can you help
explain what it means to ourlisteners?
Irina Alexander (22:27):
We were invited and introduced into the
first responder world and askedto create a program and first
responders they love acronyms aswe were creating a program and
brainstorming they love acronymsas we were creating a program
and brainstorming literallywhat's going to be part of the
program and everything.
It was at a coffee shop, two ofus and a friend who brought us
(22:48):
into what I would call a firstresponder world, and it took us
a little bit quick to identifywhat each letter and how it
resonates with us.
Certain letters were redefinedbut overall, looking back, it
summarizes everything we do insuch a beautiful way.
So it's not only for firstresponders, it's through all the
(23:12):
modalities that we do and teach.
So it just kind of put a bow init.
So that's how the CARES happensand CARES stands for C is
communication, a is awareness, ris resilience, e is emotional
literacy and S is self-mastery.
Jess (23:33):
You just so eloquently stated what CARES stands for.
Give us some examples of howthis comes to life in your
training it boils down toawareness, acknowledgement,
acceptance.
Jen Hardy (23:44):
It starts there.
We can't do anything about whatwe don't know, that we don't
know.
Tell me something you don'teven know, that you don't know.
You can't.
You can tell me the things thatyou know that you don't know.
I know I don't know Chinese.
I know Irina does, but I don'tknow what I don't know.
So we start there.
We start with what are somethings you may not even know,
that you don't know areimpacting your perspective, your
(24:05):
model of the world, how you'recommunicating with yourself,
with others, how that's creatingthe experience that you're
having and, therefore, how youcan start to change it.
But we're not trying toimmediately throw them into this
whole new world.
We just want them to start toloosen their grip on what they
believe is possible.
And once they start to loosenthat grip by understanding this
(24:26):
is just how I am, this is justthe way I was raised you can
change something.
People do change.
People can change, I like tosay.
People actually just rememberwho they really are.
But you have to also start tofind the language behind that,
and that's a big part of whatwe're doing, as well as bringing
in communication elements justlike what we just shared.
Because if I jokingly use shapes, if I've been a circle my whole
(24:50):
life and that's how people seeme, that's what people believe
me to be, that's how I'mreceived, and I come out and I'm
like oh, but I'm actually, I'ma triangle, I've always been a
triangle, and I want to come outand I want people to know I'm a
triangle and they're like bitch, you're a circle, you've been a
circle your whole life and I'mlike no, I'm a triangle.
Like I need new communicationtools.
I need new navigation tools.
(25:12):
I need new ways to practicebeing who I say that I am,
regardless of how the world hascurrently been receiving me.
Claude (25:20):
You say that changing your communication can make
people see you in another way.
Jen Hardy (25:27):
Right, I mean that's an element of it.
Absolutely, I believe so.
Claude (25:29):
Can you remind me what the E is Emotional?
What?
Irina Alexander (25:32):
Literacy.
Claude (25:34):
So what is it?
Because I understand theemotional intelligence but it's
the first time that I hearemotional literacy so that's a
great question.
Irina Alexander (25:45):
Literacy is being able to translate what's
happening inside.
What emotions are you feeling?
Because a lot of people eitherhave very few emotions, they
even can name I'm sad and I'mhappy, and that's pretty much
the end of their vocabulary,plus minus.
Couple With awareness comeswhat am I truly feeling?
(26:06):
So being literal with yourinternal world.
That's why we call it literacyand not intelligence.
Okay.
Claude (26:13):
It's learning what all your emotions.
Jen Hardy (26:17):
It also has an aspect of how do you navigate it, how
do you process it, because ifyou've been experiencing what
you're labeling as anger andyou're trying to process it as
anger, but really it wasactually hurt and hurt is scary,
and so you label it as angerinstead, it's going to be really
difficult and take a lot longerto process because you're
(26:39):
trying to process anger and nothurt At the same time, some
people, when they are hurt, theytranslate aggressive.
Claude (26:45):
It's a whole shift, Instead of starting to say I am
hurt and I'm going to startscreaming at everybody, because
that is again a reframe of youremotion, that I should not be
angry, it's just being hurt, soit's a whole shift.
Irina Alexander (27:01):
There is more to it, because are you hurt or
are you feeling hurt?
There are two differentstatements.
How would I interpret it?
Jess (27:07):
It's almost giving you the step back to understand really
truly what's happening, versusreacting.
Some people do go right toanger, even though it's really
hurt their feeling, but you haveto define it to understand how
you can really move past it.
Yeah, which now it makes methink it's similar to giving
yourself the the five-secondrule, whatever, that is, the
(27:29):
pause before saying yes.
You should be doing the samething before you have an
emotional response.
There are a lot of people,though, that probably still
can't determine what they'reactually truly feeling, that
they'll be able to take the stepback and not get so angry right
away.
But to your point, irina, aboutwhether or not do you feel hurt
or are you hurt.
How does one person figure thatone out?
Claude (27:50):
Yeah, because I'm very simple.
I don't see the difference.
Irina Alexander (27:55):
Well, you're not hurt.
You're experience hurt.
You're not hurt.
You don't want to labelyourself as hurt, and that's
also goes with the language thatyou speak internally with
yourself about yourself.
So sometimes we refer to it tofigure out what am I feeling and
, at the same time, awarenessand honesty.
(28:24):
Have a courage not only topause and to become aware of it,
but also have courage to behonest with yourself and realize
what you're feeling, withoutjudgment, because a lot of times
we start judging ourselves forwhat we feel.
Oh, I shouldn't feel this way.
You want to recognize what it is, without putting a label of
(28:47):
good or bad, and that's what wecall emotional literacy.
And if you take it a stepfurther, neuroscience-based, the
emotion can only live in yournervous system for only 90
seconds.
The emotion can only live inyour nervous system for only 90
seconds, and people are likebullshit, I've been mad and I've
been bad for more than a minuteand a half.
What happens is, after youexperience it internally through
(29:09):
your nervous system, your brainkicks in and it starts to
create a story that says it overand over and over and creates
an unresolved loop that keepsyou stuck.
So that's what emotionalliteracy is giving the
understanding of what ishappening and ability to get out
of that loop.
Jess (29:27):
What would you say to a woman afraid of failing or
constantly has that loop intheir head that they can't keep
up, they can't do everything,they're failing.
Jen Hardy (29:37):
First of all, fear.
I'm afraid of failing, I'mafraid of letting people down,
I'm afraid of looking a certainway right.
Is it fear or is it danger?
Fear and danger, they getmuddled together as one thing.
They get muddled together as asurvival instinct of this is
going to kill me, whereas fearis not real.
Fear is produced by the brain,it's fictional.
(29:58):
It is not a real thing unlessyou are actually being chased by
a tiger or a bear or whatever.
That is a fear, that is a dangerresponse.
My life is in danger, somethingis in danger a survival
response.
But in today's world we havethese survival level responses
to I'm failing, I'm going tolook bad, I'm going to be judged
(30:19):
, I'm going to be kicked out ofthe tribe, whatever.
That might be right, becausethat's a survival level response
to something that's not anactual threat to my life.
When we're having thosethoughts, you got to pause, you
got to break the loop of theautonomic processing of this is
could kill me this, could itcould be the end of me?
No, it will not.
Like Irina said, could it pisssomeone off?
(30:41):
Could you lose people?
Could people decide they don'twant to be your friend anymore?
Could you potentially lose yourjob, yeah, maybe that's a
beautiful gift in disguise, notto mention the people who fall
away.
If people want to leave yourlife because you finally speak
your truth, because you finallystand in who you really are, do
(31:03):
speak your truth.
Because you finally stand inwho you really are, do you need
to be with those people?
Let's let those people goBye-bye.
My favorite part about myrelationship with Irina is we
are so freaking blunt with eachother.
We are able to say whateverneeds to be said because we have
a filter for each other of Ilove you and this isn't working.
Claude (31:14):
There's a difference also saying the truth and how
you say it.
You can still say what youthink without being rude,
without being aggressive.
That makes a big difference aswell.
Jen Hardy (31:24):
Absolutely.
We say a lot that you can'tcontrol how someone's going to
receive you.
All you can do is manage theoutcome.
I can practice saying how Iwant, to say it as many times as
I want.
It doesn't mean that person'sgoing to receive me the way I
expect or need to want them to.
All I can do is manage theoutcome.
Jess (31:41):
One of the things that really stood out to me was there
was a comment that you had onyour website about the belief
that vulnerability is a strength, and I love that so much
because being vulnerableactually is a good thing,
because you control who you are.
Is there some reason that youwere so much focused on
vulnerability as a strength?
Irina Alexander (32:01):
vulnerability is byproduct and it's extremely
important part, because youcannot get where you want to go
without being honest, becausewhat is vulnerability is a pure
honesty without fear, feelingsafe enough to express fully,
without the fear in the outcome,and that's what Jen brought the
communication, how we talk toeach other, with each other, is
(32:25):
the fact that we can saywhatever we want and need to say
, as long as it's without blame.
We can express ourselves.
I'm hurt.
Your behavior pissed me off.
This is what I'm experiencingright now.
I don't like it, I don'tappreciate that and I was like
okay, like I will not take itpersonal.
It was just recent conversation.
I was like okay, cool, like nota problem, so it's, there is
(32:47):
the power of being truly you,being truly vulnerable, because
then nobody has anything to holdagainst you.
I am true to myself and I didwhat's best for me and for my
nervous system.
Jess (32:59):
Do you think that that is truly something you can have
with all relationships?
Jen Hardy (33:04):
Yes, and we're not going to sit here and pretend
like it doesn't require a lot offreaking practice, a lot of
courage.
Courage and vulnerability aresynonymous.
You cannot learn how to bevulnerable without practicing
being courageous and vice versa.
The same way, you can't havelove and joy and connection and
(33:25):
excitement and miraculous allthese beautiful things without
risking rejection and then shutdown and anger and sadness and
being hurt.
You have to risk one for theother.
We're're not saying it's nothard sometimes.
We're not saying that it's likeoh, so easy.
I was sweating and hot when Iwas sending her this Marco Polo,
(33:45):
I'm annoyed as hell right now,and I was on pins and needles
for like five minutes before sheresponded, cause I was like I
don't know if I said that.
Well, there's still a nervoussystem element to navigate that
we bring up as well.
It's like this.
This stuff happens, but it's mybody's response.
I know I'm okay, I know I'msafe, I know the relationship
(34:06):
we've built.
So, even though my body ishaving this response I logically
have created, I'm teaching mybody that it's okay.
We've got to get those twothings in alignment.
Irina Alexander (34:17):
Because you have a choice, right.
She could have kept it forherself, getting mad because
something is happening and she'snot expressing it, or she could
just express it and we move onand everything is fine, and
we've had a conversation aboutit.
Claude (34:30):
It also shows the strength of your relationship
without any negativerepercussions Say, okay, you
know what I don't need, that I'mleaving, you know.
So to really identify also thestrength of relationship is also
so important to be able to havethis authenticity.
Jen Hardy (34:48):
Well, it's taking practice.
We've been friends for fiveyears.
We've been practicing the toolsthat we teach.
Our stuff isn't theory, wepractice every day.
And I can say we both practiceit in our relationships.
My partner, he and I, we diveinto these places and these
spaces with each otherconstantly.
Yes to your question of canthis be in any relationship?
Absolutely, we hope it can.
(35:10):
We want it to be in allrelationships.
We would have a much betterworld.
Jess (35:14):
You might more organically push yourself to do it with
those stronger relationshipsthat you have, but technically
you should be doing it with allrelationships, regardless of
your work besties or justsomebody that I have a couple
meetings with if they take itwrong, then that relationship is
not worth it.
Claude (35:32):
Right, but you stay.
You still have yourauthenticity and what you meant,
and that's it okay, bye-byeyou're still honoring yourself.
Jess (35:41):
Yes, so just put one spin on that, because we have a lot
of people in our, in ourpodcasts that are work
professionals, right, corporatenine to five jobs.
You can't just blow off peoplefully.
I would just put one littlecaveat like you can't own their
well, you have to be, you haveto feel it.
Claude (35:56):
Obviously you're not going to say you know F you.
Jen Hardy (36:05):
That's a great point and Irina alluded to it, but we
talk a lot about iMessaging, sothat's more relevant to a nine
to five or to a corporateworkspace where you are going to
have to navigate conversationsthat maybe outside you would be
like yeah, I'm not having thisconversation, I don't even want
to, but maybe you have to forwhatever reason you believe that
you have to.
The I messaging is is part of,and we have lots of tools that
(36:28):
help support bridging that gapin that conversation where you
still get to honor yourboundaries, your voice, what you
need to express, while stillrespecting what's going on on
the other side right, you'restill going to have this, like
you probably would show up thewith your authenticity,
regardless but the potentialways of positioning or the final
(36:51):
outcome.
Jess (36:52):
You might be a little bit more willing to just let
somebody go again if it'spersonal or if it's work and
you're like I have to go toanother meeting with them an
hour later.
Claude (37:00):
I mean and then there is also how you consider say OK,
bye, bye, because that isphysically right, you can cut
them off.
But then you can cut them offemotionally Right, you're still
going to have to work with it,with them, but you're not going
to have this relationship,emotional relationship, because
(37:22):
it doesn't bring you anything.
I think there's a differencebetween physical and emotional.
Irina Alexander (37:28):
You know, breakup no yes and no, because
it's very easy to say, well, cutthem off, I'm no longer
emotionally involved with you.
That's great in theory, theory.
In reality, there's very fewpeople.
I want to say I'm one of them,but in reality there are very
few people who can end therelationship and still be
friends or still be civil.
Claude (37:50):
Yeah, I would say more colleagues than friends, because
friendship is emotional, rightit's harder to transition all of
a sudden.
Irina Alexander (37:58):
Okay, you did something, cut it off and I'm
moving on.
You have a history.
It's great in theory.
In real life it's not.
You have to get into the rootcause and you have to figure out
what pissed you off.
Why did you let them go in yourlife?
Why did not align?
So there has to be a closure.
The loop needs to be closedemotionally for you to truly let
(38:19):
the person go and then yetstill treat them with respect.
Because if you're just goinginto avoidance mode, well, I'm
just going to treat you as acolleague and no more.
That's great on the surface, butyou did not process it.
So, being able to close theloop, get your closure on
everything that is happening,realize that, okay, this person
didn't align with what I am, butI'm still grieving my
(38:43):
friendship because I spent twoyears, one year, six months,
whatever it is with this person.
You still have to process it.
So that's where emotionalliteracy comes in place is being
truly honest with yourselvesthat, hey, I still miss this
person.
I love to hang out and haveafter work drinks.
When the loop is closed, then,when you truly can just become a
(39:03):
acquaintances or colleagueswithout any negative or
expressed emotions towards them,and that's why I said it's
easier in theory, but inpractice you truly have to
process it and you have to godeep in order to let it go okay,
yeah, I don't know, that'ssomething that everybody can
handle.
Jess (39:21):
I think a lot of people lean so much on the emotion that
time is just cutting off.
Irina Alexander (39:25):
Yeah, that's why a lot of people physically
remove themselves, because theycannot emotionally coexist.
Jess (39:31):
Jen, specifically to you what's a truth about burnout or
healing that you wish more womenknew?
Jen Hardy (39:39):
A truth about burnout is the fact that we don't talk
about the guilt and the shamethat's attached to it.
What do you mean?
Well, value and productivity,equaling my identity and who I
am and wearing it as a badge,then the silent saboteur is the
potential, the guilt and theshame that shows up when I'm
going to slow down, I'm going toback off, I'm going to do less,
(40:01):
I need to rest, I'm going totake time for me.
Someone's got it worse,someone's got it harder,
someone's struggling more.
I've got it easy.
Whatever, I'm supposed to bethe strong one.
I was built to be resilient.
That was more my story.
So there's this guilt and thisshame that comes up that, no, I
can't, I can't take time for me.
(40:21):
I can't, I can't rest.
I was in a position where Iwasn't financially contributing
as much as I wanted to in thepartnership I'm in, in my
relationship, and so the ideathat I was at home but had all
this free time not chosen freetime, but I have all this free
time.
But then there's, like thisguilt, when I'm also exhausted
(40:42):
and want to take a nap or go fora walk instead of work on
something.
There's this juxtaposition,right.
There's so much guilt and shamearound putting ourself first so
that we don't end up in thatburnout position.
It's a cultural thing that'sreally gotten nailed into us, do
you think also it comes withage.
Claude (40:59):
As you get older you start to be more loose about the
importance of your time, of notfeeling guilty.
Jen Hardy (41:08):
I think it can come with age If you are taking
enough time to like, broadenyour perspective and open your
mind.
It's unfortunate that I can sayI've met plenty of 60 year olds
who they're still wearing itlike a badge of honor and they,
you know, they haven't seenanything different.
Our Gen Z is a beautifulexample, because they're the
(41:28):
generation out there rocking theboat right now saying, oh screw
this, I don't want to live thekind of life you lived, where it
was miserable hours a day andyou barely make enough ends meet
to survive.
They're like I want to workbecause I enjoy it.
I want to work because there'sa mission and a purpose and
there's value, and I commendthem for that.
And they're there shaking theboat for people, and it's a good
(41:50):
thing.
Many of us, as we get older,realize this isn't worth it, but
some of the people have it sodeeply ingrained and they're so
they're in an environment that'sso closed in they never see
outside of it.
Jess (42:02):
We'd love for you to share what's one small thing they can
do with someone else to beginstepping out of burnout today.
Irina Alexander (42:08):
If you are in a position of having a bestie,
sit down and have anuncomfortable conversation and
express what you've been feeling, what you've been going through
.
If you truly have a bestie thatyou work with, it will be very,
very beneficial.
You will feel good and it willget you closer, just to sharing
(42:31):
your experience and what you'vebeen going through, and it's
very healing for both.
Jen Hardy (42:35):
Add to that shame lives in silence.
So when you bring that to thelight and you're willing to
speak, shame loses its grip alittle goosebumps for that.
Claude (42:44):
Thank you so much, jen and ariana.
We we learned so much in, youknow, the 30 or so minutes.
I mean it's incredible and ouraudience can already start to
use this tool.
You know this wholecommunication being being
authentic, pausing not to be ayes right away.
Where can our audience find you?
Irina Alexander (43:04):
Our website, MotiveActionacademy, has all of
our social media links, ouremail, our phone number, so one
stop we'll get you all theinformation.
Claude (43:14):
Motiveactionacademy Perfect and we'll make sure to
add them on our show notes.
Work besties.
Thank you so much for listening.
I'm sure you really trulyenjoyed as much as we did.
Jen and Irina.
In the meantime, like forward,subscribe and we'll see you next
week.
Thank you.
Jess (43:34):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings or just sending
that perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (43:47):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Jen Hardy (44:00):
Work besties.
Burnout doesn't happen in a vacuum.
It happens in connections.
Today we have Jen Hardy andIrina Alexander, who are going
to help us unpack why healingisn't just internal, it's
relational.
As you listen, ask yourself whodo you need in your corner when
it all feels like way too much.
Stay tuned to the very end aswe ask these two powerhouses the
(00:23):
one thing to do today that willlift yourself out of that
burnout, together with your workbestie.
Claude (00:30):
Hi, I'm Claude and I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night and
work besties for life.
Jess (00:38):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other up,
laugh through the chaos andthrive together in every
industry.
Work besties, welcome.
We're so excited to have you,thank you ladies, Thank you.
I thought we'd kick off first,Jen, asking you a question
around what was your personalpowerful burnout story?
Jen Hardy (01:01):
That would be the days that I was sleeping in my
car for two to three hours inthe middle of my day.
Jess (01:08):
I feel like there's a backstory there.
Jen Hardy (01:11):
There is right.
I was a teacher and a coach for12 years.
Halfway through that career,during a run for a state title,
a second state title I had beendriving to the church around the
corner to sleep in my car foranywhere from two to three hours
, depending on how much of aplanning period lunch, study
hall that I had all groupedtogether at once just to make it
(01:32):
for the day and survive througheach day and show up how I
needed to show up.
After that happened over andover and over again, in the
middle of playoffs, it was likethis is not normal.
This can't just be part of thejob, right, because there's
often people who are like, oh,you're just in playoff season,
you're just in season, right, Ihear that all the time in
different professions.
(01:52):
Oh, this is not normal, this isnot okay.
I finally had to take a look atwhat's really going on here and
I was just overdoing it.
I was a yes syndrome girl, as Ilike to say it.
I was a yes syndrome girl, as Ilike to say it.
I was saying yes to all thethings very much defined by
productivity how much you do isis your worth, and those are
some of the things that westarted to uncover as as we
(02:14):
moved through this healingjourney and, and this burnout,
having to recuperate and sleep,is it because it was really long
hours of work but and duringthe night, not being able to
sleep because you cannot shutoff your, your?
Yes, long hours being a teacherand a coach.
Obviously there were extendedhours before school and after
(02:37):
school, sometimes till midnightwith driving the bus.
But for me it was alsocompassion fatigue.
Working with students, workingwith athletes whose parents
aren't around or who aren'tshowing up the way they need
them to.
You're expected to beeverything they need in that
moment when you care right andreally show up for these kids in
the way that they need.
(02:57):
So it wasn't so much for methat I couldn't shut my brain
off or couldn't go to sleep.
In fact I'd get home and I'dsleep so hard like it was hard
to get up in the morning.
But I know for a fact that Ihad compassion fatigue.
I was overwhelmed with how muchof me needed to be there for
these kids and I didn't have thetools and the skills to
navigate the energy that wasbeing taken to do that.
Jess (03:19):
And Irina, I hear you have also a powerful burnout story
as well.
That happened separately in adifferent, distinct way.
What was your wake up call?
Irina Alexander (03:28):
My wake up call was as I was driving on
highway and I called my mom andI said, mom, I'm coming home.
And she was like what do youmean?
Who died?
Because by that time I haven'tbeen home in nine years.
And so that was my big moment.
I took my kids and I went backhome to my homeland, russia, and
(03:49):
spent there a few weeks, andafter I came back, I said, okay,
I don't want to do it anymore.
It was great, it was a greatjourney, it was a great business
, but I am done and I don't wantto do what I've been doing.
Jess (04:02):
Okay, so you guys didn't go through burnout together, but
it sounds like you both got toa breaking point and found each
other on the other side.
Did the connection between youtwo start and get to this point?
Jen Hardy (04:15):
We both ended up finding NLP Neuro Linguistic
Programming as a trainingmodality that we both got
involved in back in 2019, 2020as a personal development
journey, and neither one of uswent because we wanted to be
coaches or trainers or doanything.
We went because we were justcurious.
I was a little bit ahead ofIrina in terms of jumping in.
I was at her practitioner as acoach and the first time I met
(04:39):
her I couldn't stand her.
I just thought she was such astuck-up bitch and I couldn't.
She would sit in the back, likethe thing I always joke about.
That I remember the most as acoach at the training when we
were supposed to usher everybodyback to their seats when it's
time to get back into thelessons, and that's when arena
would get up and go to the backof the room and open a bag of
(05:01):
chips and start eating the chipsin the back of the room,
because she was a huge what wecall mismatcher back then, so
she'd love to do the opposite ofwhat everybody else was doing.
Somebody would always be likesomeone go tell her to sit down
and we'd all be like, yeah, no,I don't talk to her, oh my gosh
(05:24):
so along that line of her beingthe mismatcher, I think the
trainers knew that, and so theytreated her extra special in the
fact that she got to skipmasters and come straight to
trainers training, which iswhere we actually met.
We actually got put in the samegroup.
We ended up partnered togetherin a very emotionally intense
exercise that we jokingly butalso seriously say that we got
(05:48):
anchored to each other in a veryemotionally bonding way and
ever since then we've been superclose and been very supportive
of each other and it juststarted to grow from that place.
We came out of there both goingto do different things, but
always going and supporting theother one at their training in
whatever way we could, or theirevents, and then we started hey,
let's do an event together.
(06:09):
This has been an interestingjourney to do alone.
Let's try some together.
We did more and more and moretogether and then we got to.
She got to a point where sheasked me do you want to just do
this together?
And uh, that was what august2023 that we officially joined
(06:32):
forces and said let's do this.
To say it hasn't been a journeyto figure out how to be with
each other as two very likestrong type, strong women, uh,
would be alike.
The skills and the tools thatwe have have allowed us to
really navigate and create areally intimate and beautiful
friendship.
Jess (06:45):
That's amazing.
And, irina, let's hear yourside of the story.
What was your first impressionof Jen?
Irina Alexander (06:53):
I don't even remember her, I don't know which
one is worse.
It was the bitch as Jendescribed.
100% true, but I don't think weeven talked during that
training.
It was a seven-day-longtraining.
Can you believe seven day long?
I didn't think we communicatedor anything, but once we went
through the trainers andanchored to each other, that was
(07:14):
a beautiful journey being ableto trust another woman, because
we all came from a background ofsome betrayal and some other
issues and stories in the past.
So it's been very fascinatingto see us grow and heal each
other.
Can you remind me what kind oftraining was it again?
(07:34):
Nlp, neuro LinguisticProgramming.
Jen Hardy (07:37):
It's the base of what we host and what we do now as
well.
Jess (07:39):
Based off of this, it sounds like you guys decided to
do this, this.
It sounds like you guys decidedto do this, but it sounds in
addition to burnout, there mayhave been some boundaries that
you weren't necessarily creatingany self-leadership of who you
are in and of itself.
Now that you've taken thisclass, started teaching, what do
you feel are some of thoseearly signs others can see in
(07:59):
themselves?
Jen Hardy (08:00):
Some of the early signs that I don't think people
notice is over-productivity.
I call it yes syndrome.
I say that jokingly, but we dolive in a world where we're
rewarded for productivity, we'rerewarded for doing, doing,
doing, doing right we wear likea badge of honor until we're so
far run into the ground that wedon't even recognize when we're
(08:22):
saying yes anymore.
I mean, we had a woman in oneof our trainings that we still
laugh, that she was such apeople pleaser and such a say
yes, yes, yes, yes.
Without thinking we gave her atask that you have to pause for
five seconds before you say yesto something.
And then, like two minuteslater, one of the girls that was
there in the training was likehey, can I borrow your phone?
(08:42):
And she was like yep, here withno thought, literally two
minutes after we made the taskand the whole room just erupted
cracking up and it took her aminute to even catch it and she
was like it was so instinctualto just always say yes versus
pausing to notice.
Do I want to do this?
Should I do this?
Can I do this?
Do I have the energy andcapacity, the knowledge, all the
(09:03):
elements that we don't evenpause long enough for right.
We just go, go, go, go, go, gogo.
So maybe that's a sign is, ifyou notice, I'm going so fast,
so quick, that I don't evenremember what I've said yes to
what I'm doing, what I've done,it's just, it just becomes a
blur.
Claude (09:18):
How do you take that mindset away?
Because for a lot of peoplesaying yes, I think you're a
little bit like that too and Iam totally I'm a yes person.
How do you say no at this point?
Because it's hard right,Because then you're going to
have this fear of being fired ordisappointing, because that is
part of being a people pleaser.
(09:39):
You know you don't want todisappoint the other person,
because it's a badge of honoralso to be the good one.
How do you break?
Irina Alexander (09:46):
that.
How is that a problem?
How is that a problem to beseen as a person who says no?
And what is the purpose of yousaying yes?
All the time you have to askyourself and be honest with
yourself For what purpose areyou doing that?
And what would happen if yousay no?
Somebody gets disappointed.
So what?
How is that a problem to you?
(10:07):
That's true.
Claude (10:08):
It's not your problem if they are disappointed.
Irina Alexander (10:10):
Yeah, I mean, we choose to make it our problem
or choose to take it onourselves.
But is it really our problem?
Or you just kind of have afriend like me who, when Jen
says yes, you just like elbowher and saying do you really
want to do that?
Jess (10:26):
it also gives you the luxury of a pause to think does
this add value not only to you,but the role or what you're
doing?
you have the ability to say whyright because there is a lot of
times and I know what you saidI'm a yes person, but I don't
feel like I have been the lastcouple years in this role,
because I get inundated by somany things that I do say what,
what is that?
For Nine times out of 10,they're like none of your
(10:46):
business and I'm like well then,I don't need to do it, you can
do it.
I do believe to your point.
In addition, it's not that it'sbad to say no or to pause.
In my mind, it helps providethe clarity that's even needed
as to why you would be asked todo it yeah, it's definitely the
(11:08):
pause, right.
Jen Hardy (11:09):
You asked how do you do it?
How do you do it when you'realways wanting to be the one who
looks good or is valued, orwhatever the words are?
How you do it is you startpausing.
You have to pause long enoughto notice what am I thinking,
what am I feeling, what'shappening behind the scenes and
why I'm wanting to say yes.
(11:30):
So that's, the first step ispause.
Irina Alexander (11:33):
Stop being on autopilot, because a lot of
people are on autopilot thatautomatic reflex of yes or
saying yes or whatever it is.
So break that pattern.
Jen Hardy (11:43):
It doesn't even mean you're going to say that you're
not going to say yes the firsttime.
That's not even what we'resaying.
We're just saying just startpracticing, pausing and noticing
what happens.
Jess (11:53):
That's true.
You don't have to say yes toeverything.
It's the pause, because ifpeople really want it, they'll
come back and or they'll find away to do it themselves.
Claude (11:59):
And it doesn't mean that taking a pause means that
you're going to say no, it'sjust reflecting and not being on
autopilot which, when you'reeven in a burnout space, you're
on autopilot.
Jess (12:15):
You talked about how the yes person is tied to your
self-worth.
How do you entangle that fromthe achievement aspect?
What are kind of processes orways that you can work on that?
What are some ideas that ourwork besties can think about?
Jen Hardy (12:31):
It all boils down to?
What are you focusing on right?
Where is that coming from?
Are you choosing to achievethis because this is part of who
you want to be in the world andhow you desire to be seen, how
you desire to show up, but also,more importantly, how you want
to be in the world and how youdesire to be seen, how you
desire to show up, but also,more importantly, how you want
to feel right.
Or are you doing it to bevalued?
(12:53):
Are you doing it to be accepted?
Are you doing it to be seen asa leader and seen as an expert,
even when you aren't, or are youdoing it just to be known?
We have to take a minute tonotice.
What do I believe about thesethings, and where and why I'm
doing them, how I chose to dothem.
My journey as a teacher and acoach is actually an example,
(13:14):
because I didn't even go toschool to be a teacher and a
coach.
I actually went to go be astrength coach specifically.
I did not want to be a teacher.
Being a teacher scared the hellout of me and life happened the
way life happened and I becamea teacher and it kind of felt
like I had to.
I'm the type of person who'slike you put something in front
of me, I'm going to figure itout, I'm going to achieve it.
(13:35):
So I ended up being good at it.
That's what I realized when Igot to a point in my
self-development journey was I'mdoing what I wound up doing,
but do I want to do this?
When did I decide, like that,this is what I wanted to do, or
that this was my definition ofsuccess?
And it?
It never was.
It was fun and I was good at itand I had success.
But like what do I want to?
Claude (13:56):
do.
Did you enjoy it Right?
Jen Hardy (14:00):
That's the funny part I didn't get the fulfillment
and the success.
I didn't feel it the way Ithought I would feel it.
I mean, we won a statechampionship and within two days
I was already freaking outabout how do I do it again and
what the expectations are goingto be, and the weight of it.
I didn't even really enjoy it.
It was just yay, it was amazingfor 24 hours, 48 hours, and
(14:23):
then it was like, oh shit, I'mgoing to do it again.
I realized I didn't actuallychoose that path for myself.
I mean, I did in the reality ofrealities, right, but I fell
into it.
I ended up being good at it.
I'm doing what I wound up doing.
What else can I do?
So I leave?
I'm like, screw it, I'm leaving.
Jess (14:46):
I'm going to to find out that I'm a teacher and a coach,
just not in public education,but it sounds like in this
version of it you found apartner, so that has helped you.
Maybe that's some of yourlearning.
What are other things that, asyou guys, became a partner in a
business, especially as youmentioned early on as two very
strong individuals?
What did you learn about thatand helping you to redefine your
(15:07):
success and leadership?
Irina Alexander (15:08):
we joke that we are as close as we can be
except intimacy.
So we are like very, very closeand it's a relationship, and
any relationship it it takeswork.
So, learning each other,learning how to communicate,
learning each other's triggers,navigating each other's
(15:31):
situations right when we are inlife and what is happening.
I'm very individualistic,ego-driven person, or at least
used to be, and what it's liketo have a partner and
communicating with a partner, Imean we joke she's like.
You just need to at leastinform me, tell me what's
happening.
(15:51):
It's one thing when you run acompany by yourself, it's a very
different dynamic when there ismore than just you.
In a family dynamic, it's onething.
But in a family dynamic, it'sone thing.
But in a business, it's alsoextremely important and at the
same time, not to overcommunicate, because if Jen
starts over communicating withme, she knows that I roll my
eyes and I don't listen becauseI don't like to be over
(16:13):
communicated.
Is it really?
Claude (16:18):
what are we doing today?
I'm like, can you put?
She's like sissy me.
Jess (16:21):
What are we doing today?
I'm like I've emailed it to youfour times.
Claude (16:24):
And I'm like, please stop sissing me, it's
overwhelmed me.
Irina Alexander (16:28):
I mean, jen would really would like put a
bullet.
I was like, hey, can I get abullet points, because I will
not read all of that.
Or like the other day sherecorded five messages and then
she deleted them on and recordedone because she was like you
don't need all of that.
I was like, thank you.
So learning each other'scommunication style and
respecting it and don't take itpersonal Meeting each other
(16:51):
where we are, it's beenabsolutely beautiful and we
learn so much from each other,with each other, that we are
teaching other people as wellmuch from each other, with each
other, that we are teachingother people as well.
Jess (17:03):
I love that you brought up the communication, because I
feel like communication ingeneral is something all
relationships, work besties,partners and business um, you
know, personal relationships,all that you have to work on but
it becomes a little differentwhen it's under pressure too
right.
So communication can bedifficult on a normal day, but
then you've now got thispressure of work deadlines or
(17:23):
having to say yes or no topeople all the time.
So I'm curious from both ofyour perspectives, what are some
ways that, when it's apressured situation, our work
besties can learn how to takethat pause, or what are things
they can think about to helpbetter their communication?
Jen Hardy (17:41):
I'm going to share the conversational preframes
because I think they can changethe game and they're super easy.
Conversational preframes areactually our participants, our
students, our clients.
That's one of their favoritethings, but it's basically
either as the person who'sspeaking or as the person who's
going to be listening.
I'm going to pre-frame theconversation, especially when
(18:02):
it's got some intensity to it,to know how to best listen or
how to best serve, or how I needto be listened to.
Right, because so oftencommunication goes astray or
goes wrong because we'reassuming what the person needs.
Right, we're listening from ourfilters and what we need, to
feel safe and comfortable tonavigate this difficult
(18:23):
conversation, or how to get awayfrom it, for that matter.
Right, instead of how do Iactually be in this space with
this person and give them whatthey need, while I also get what
I need, whether I'm the speakeror the listener?
And so you prefront, you askthem do you just need to vent?
Do you need perspective?
Right, do you need me to be onyour side?
(18:46):
Perspective, vent, be on yourside or help you fix it, because
most people just want to vent,some people need help fixing it,
some people need perspectiveand some people just want you to
be their cheerleader.
That one actually is hard forsome people, because the key to
that is you have to be on theirside, even if you don't agree.
(19:08):
I have people who are like Ican't do that and I'm like cool,
then tell them you can't dothat, that's okay, I'm not your
person, if that's what you needand how it looks in reality is.
You know, I have a friend whocalls me.
I'm driving down I-35, she'sbawling like.
She's like I can't right andlike barely able to talk, and
I'm like this could take a longtime or I can make sure this is
(19:29):
efficient, effective and reallyserves her.
So I asked her to do boxbreathing.
I'm like hey, take a minute, dosome breaths.
I'm going to ask you a coupleof questions.
Let me know and I literallyjust asked her those four
questions which of these is bestgoing to serve you right now.
I listed them off and then shesaid well, I think the first
thing I need is to vent, becauseI haven't told anybody this and
(19:50):
I'm like got it.
She's like, but then I need youto help me figure out what to
do.
I know how to listen, I knowwhat she needs and I'm going to
be able that conversationfeeling so much better, right.
Claude (19:59):
That's true that a lot of time, when people just want
to vent, you don't want to hearhow to fix it.
Asking the question really canhelp that relationship and you
never think about it because youtend to go straight to where
your mind is right, but whichbecomes you.
It's what you want, but at theend of the day it is what the
(20:19):
other person needs, and askingthe question is so powerful it
is definitely changes the toneof the conversation too because
you're there for the person forwhat they actually need.
Jen Hardy (20:31):
the beautiful thing is because we're we are selfish
human beings.
Yeah, I'm also still gettingwhat I need as the one who's on
who just asked, as as thelistener, because now I'm not
and this is gonna sound bad, butit's not how I mean it.
I'm not wasting my time Likewe're not taking longer than we
need to diving into parts of theconversation that really don't
even need to be talked about.
The whole point of me trying tofix it immediately is maybe
(20:52):
because I'm uncomfortable and Ineed to get out of it, but in
reality, when I pre frame thisway, we both have our needs met
much more effectively andefficiently in this conversation
.
Jess (21:02):
Or you're wrongly assuming .
They just wanted the fix verseto vent and therefore you both
leave the conversation veryfrustrated.
So I think bringing it up atthe beginning is smart, because
then you both have theestablished understanding of
what the conversation and wherethe deliverables will go.
And it's funny because you thinkabout that like from a work
(21:24):
situation.
It should be more ingrained inconversation, but it works in
personal relationships.
You don't always think aboutthat from a friendship one
because you feel like you wouldknow them so well that you're
just assuming that you have anidea of why they chose you to
call.
Claude (21:36):
And I think it depends also on the men and between men
and women, right?
I think a lot of times the manwants to fix it, and that's
where in a relationship, that'swhere you get conflict also, as
in like I don't need you to fixit, I can fix it, just listen,
you know asking the questionwhat do you need me to do?
It's, it's very important mydad.
Jen Hardy (21:57):
my dad got to learn these from us and he was like
that's my favorite thing, that'sgoing to save me so much time
with you and your sister.
Jess (22:07):
It's true.
I feel like that's an amazingtip for everybody, regardless of
your personal relationships,professional, all that.
Another thing that we heardwhen we kind of investigated you
guys was your CARES framework.
Where did this CARES frameworkoriginate and can you help
explain what it means to ourlisteners?
Irina Alexander (22:27):
We were invited and introduced into the
first responder world and askedto create a program and first
responders they love acronyms aswe were creating a program and
brainstorming they love acronymsas we were creating a program
and brainstorming literallywhat's going to be part of the
program and everything.
It was at a coffee shop, two ofus and a friend who brought us
(22:48):
into what I would call a firstresponder world, and it took us
a little bit quick to identifywhat each letter and how it
resonates with us.
Certain letters were redefinedbut overall, looking back, it
summarizes everything we do insuch a beautiful way.
So it's not only for firstresponders, it's through all the
(23:12):
modalities that we do and teach.
So it just kind of put a bow init.
So that's how the CARES happensand CARES stands for C is
communication, a is awareness, ris resilience, e is emotional
literacy and S is self-mastery.
Jess (23:33):
You just so eloquently stated what CARES stands for.
Give us some examples of howthis comes to life in your
training it boils down toawareness, acknowledgement,
acceptance.
Jen Hardy (23:44):
It starts there.
We can't do anything about whatwe don't know, that we don't
know.
Tell me something you don'teven know, that you don't know.
You can't.
You can tell me the things thatyou know that you don't know.
I know I don't know Chinese.
I know Irina does, but I don'tknow what I don't know.
So we start there.
We start with what are somethings you may not even know,
that you don't know areimpacting your perspective, your
(24:05):
model of the world, how you'recommunicating with yourself,
with others, how that's creatingthe experience that you're
having and, therefore, how youcan start to change it.
But we're not trying toimmediately throw them into this
whole new world.
We just want them to start toloosen their grip on what they
believe is possible.
And once they start to loosenthat grip by understanding this
(24:26):
is just how I am, this is justthe way I was raised you can
change something.
People do change.
People can change, I like tosay.
People actually just rememberwho they really are.
But you have to also start tofind the language behind that,
and that's a big part of whatwe're doing, as well as bringing
in communication elements justlike what we just shared.
Because if I jokingly use shapes, if I've been a circle my whole
(24:50):
life and that's how people seeme, that's what people believe
me to be, that's how I'mreceived, and I come out and I'm
like oh, but I'm actually, I'ma triangle, I've always been a
triangle, and I want to come outand I want people to know I'm a
triangle and they're like bitch, you're a circle, you've been a
circle your whole life and I'mlike no, I'm a triangle.
Like I need new communicationtools.
I need new navigation tools.
(25:12):
I need new ways to practicebeing who I say that I am,
regardless of how the world hascurrently been receiving me.
Claude (25:20):
You say that changing your communication can make
people see you in another way.
Jen Hardy (25:27):
Right, I mean that's an element of it.
Absolutely, I believe so.
Claude (25:29):
Can you remind me what the E is Emotional?
What?
Irina Alexander (25:32):
Literacy.
Claude (25:34):
So what is it?
Because I understand theemotional intelligence but it's
the first time that I hearemotional literacy so that's a
great question.
Irina Alexander (25:45):
Literacy is being able to translate what's
happening inside.
What emotions are you feeling?
Because a lot of people eitherhave very few emotions, they
even can name I'm sad and I'mhappy, and that's pretty much
the end of their vocabulary,plus minus.
Couple With awareness comeswhat am I truly feeling?
(26:06):
So being literal with yourinternal world.
That's why we call it literacyand not intelligence.
Okay.
Claude (26:13):
It's learning what all your emotions.
Jen Hardy (26:17):
It also has an aspect of how do you navigate it, how
do you process it, because ifyou've been experiencing what
you're labeling as anger andyou're trying to process it as
anger, but really it wasactually hurt and hurt is scary,
and so you label it as angerinstead, it's going to be really
difficult and take a lot longerto process because you're
(26:39):
trying to process anger and nothurt At the same time, some
people, when they are hurt, theytranslate aggressive.
Claude (26:45):
It's a whole shift, Instead of starting to say I am
hurt and I'm going to startscreaming at everybody, because
that is again a reframe of youremotion, that I should not be
angry, it's just being hurt, soit's a whole shift.
Irina Alexander (27:01):
There is more to it, because are you hurt or
are you feeling hurt?
There are two differentstatements.
How would I interpret it?
Jess (27:07):
It's almost giving you the step back to understand really
truly what's happening, versusreacting.
Some people do go right toanger, even though it's really
hurt their feeling, but you haveto define it to understand how
you can really move past it.
Yeah, which now it makes methink it's similar to giving
yourself the the five-secondrule, whatever, that is, the
(27:29):
pause before saying yes.
You should be doing the samething before you have an
emotional response.
There are a lot of people,though, that probably still
can't determine what they'reactually truly feeling, that
they'll be able to take the stepback and not get so angry right
away.
But to your point, irina, aboutwhether or not do you feel hurt
or are you hurt.
How does one person figure thatone out?
Claude (27:50):
Yeah, because I'm very simple.
I don't see the difference.
Irina Alexander (27:55):
Well, you're not hurt.
You're experience hurt.
You're not hurt.
You don't want to labelyourself as hurt, and that's
also goes with the language thatyou speak internally with
yourself about yourself.
So sometimes we refer to it tofigure out what am I feeling and
, at the same time, awarenessand honesty.
(28:24):
Have a courage not only topause and to become aware of it,
but also have courage to behonest with yourself and realize
what you're feeling, withoutjudgment, because a lot of times
we start judging ourselves forwhat we feel.
Oh, I shouldn't feel this way.
You want to recognize what it is, without putting a label of
(28:47):
good or bad, and that's what wecall emotional literacy.
And if you take it a stepfurther, neuroscience-based, the
emotion can only live in yournervous system for only 90
seconds.
The emotion can only live inyour nervous system for only 90
seconds, and people are likebullshit, I've been mad and I've
been bad for more than a minuteand a half.
What happens is, after youexperience it internally through
(29:09):
your nervous system, your brainkicks in and it starts to
create a story that says it overand over and over and creates
an unresolved loop that keepsyou stuck.
So that's what emotionalliteracy is giving the
understanding of what ishappening and ability to get out
of that loop.
Jess (29:27):
What would you say to a woman afraid of failing or
constantly has that loop intheir head that they can't keep
up, they can't do everything,they're failing.
Jen Hardy (29:37):
First of all, fear.
I'm afraid of failing, I'mafraid of letting people down,
I'm afraid of looking a certainway right.
Is it fear or is it danger?
Fear and danger, they getmuddled together as one thing.
They get muddled together as asurvival instinct of this is
going to kill me, whereas fearis not real.
Fear is produced by the brain,it's fictional.
(29:58):
It is not a real thing unlessyou are actually being chased by
a tiger or a bear or whatever.
That is a fear, that is a dangerresponse.
My life is in danger, somethingis in danger a survival
response.
But in today's world we havethese survival level responses
to I'm failing, I'm going tolook bad, I'm going to be judged
(30:19):
, I'm going to be kicked out ofthe tribe, whatever.
That might be right, becausethat's a survival level response
to something that's not anactual threat to my life.
When we're having thosethoughts, you got to pause, you
got to break the loop of theautonomic processing of this is
could kill me this, could itcould be the end of me?
No, it will not.
Like Irina said, could it pisssomeone off?
(30:41):
Could you lose people?
Could people decide they don'twant to be your friend anymore?
Could you potentially lose yourjob, yeah, maybe that's a
beautiful gift in disguise, notto mention the people who fall
away.
If people want to leave yourlife because you finally speak
your truth, because you finallystand in who you really are, do
(31:03):
speak your truth.
Because you finally stand inwho you really are, do you need
to be with those people?
Let's let those people goBye-bye.
My favorite part about myrelationship with Irina is we
are so freaking blunt with eachother.
We are able to say whateverneeds to be said because we have
a filter for each other of Ilove you and this isn't working.
Claude (31:14):
There's a difference also saying the truth and how
you say it.
You can still say what youthink without being rude,
without being aggressive.
That makes a big difference aswell.
Jen Hardy (31:24):
Absolutely.
We say a lot that you can'tcontrol how someone's going to
receive you.
All you can do is manage theoutcome.
I can practice saying how Iwant, to say it as many times as
I want.
It doesn't mean that person'sgoing to receive me the way I
expect or need to want them to.
All I can do is manage theoutcome.
Jess (31:41):
One of the things that really stood out to me was there
was a comment that you had onyour website about the belief
that vulnerability is a strength, and I love that so much
because being vulnerableactually is a good thing,
because you control who you are.
Is there some reason that youwere so much focused on
vulnerability as a strength?
Irina Alexander (32:01):
vulnerability is byproduct and it's extremely
important part, because youcannot get where you want to go
without being honest, becausewhat is vulnerability is a pure
honesty without fear, feelingsafe enough to express fully,
without the fear in the outcome,and that's what Jen brought the
communication, how we talk toeach other, with each other, is
(32:25):
the fact that we can saywhatever we want and need to say
, as long as it's without blame.
We can express ourselves.
I'm hurt.
Your behavior pissed me off.
This is what I'm experiencingright now.
I don't like it, I don'tappreciate that and I was like
okay, like I will not take itpersonal.
It was just recent conversation.
I was like okay, cool, like nota problem, so it's, there is
(32:47):
the power of being truly you,being truly vulnerable, because
then nobody has anything to holdagainst you.
I am true to myself and I didwhat's best for me and for my
nervous system.
Jess (32:59):
Do you think that that is truly something you can have
with all relationships?
Jen Hardy (33:04):
Yes, and we're not going to sit here and pretend
like it doesn't require a lot offreaking practice, a lot of
courage.
Courage and vulnerability aresynonymous.
You cannot learn how to bevulnerable without practicing
being courageous and vice versa.
The same way, you can't havelove and joy and connection and
(33:25):
excitement and miraculous allthese beautiful things without
risking rejection and then shutdown and anger and sadness and
being hurt.
You have to risk one for theother.
We're're not saying it's nothard sometimes.
We're not saying that it's likeoh, so easy.
I was sweating and hot when Iwas sending her this Marco Polo,
(33:45):
I'm annoyed as hell right now,and I was on pins and needles
for like five minutes before sheresponded, cause I was like I
don't know if I said that.
Well, there's still a nervoussystem element to navigate that
we bring up as well.
It's like this.
This stuff happens, but it's mybody's response.
I know I'm okay, I know I'msafe, I know the relationship
(34:06):
we've built.
So, even though my body ishaving this response I logically
have created, I'm teaching mybody that it's okay.
We've got to get those twothings in alignment.
Irina Alexander (34:17):
Because you have a choice, right.
She could have kept it forherself, getting mad because
something is happening and she'snot expressing it, or she could
just express it and we move onand everything is fine, and
we've had a conversation aboutit.
Claude (34:30):
It also shows the strength of your relationship
without any negativerepercussions Say, okay, you
know what I don't need, that I'mleaving, you know.
So to really identify also thestrength of relationship is also
so important to be able to havethis authenticity.
Jen Hardy (34:48):
Well, it's taking practice.
We've been friends for fiveyears.
We've been practicing the toolsthat we teach.
Our stuff isn't theory, wepractice every day.
And I can say we both practiceit in our relationships.
My partner, he and I, we diveinto these places and these
spaces with each otherconstantly.
Yes to your question of canthis be in any relationship?
Absolutely, we hope it can.
(35:10):
We want it to be in allrelationships.
We would have a much betterworld.
Jess (35:14):
You might more organically push yourself to do it with
those stronger relationshipsthat you have, but technically
you should be doing it with allrelationships, regardless of
your work besties or justsomebody that I have a couple
meetings with if they take itwrong, then that relationship is
not worth it.
Claude (35:32):
Right, but you stay.
You still have yourauthenticity and what you meant,
and that's it okay, bye-byeyou're still honoring yourself.
Jess (35:41):
Yes, so just put one spin on that, because we have a lot
of people in our, in ourpodcasts that are work
professionals, right, corporatenine to five jobs.
You can't just blow off peoplefully.
I would just put one littlecaveat like you can't own their
well, you have to be, you haveto feel it.
Claude (35:56):
Obviously you're not going to say you know F you.
Jen Hardy (36:05):
That's a great point and Irina alluded to it, but we
talk a lot about iMessaging, sothat's more relevant to a nine
to five or to a corporateworkspace where you are going to
have to navigate conversationsthat maybe outside you would be
like yeah, I'm not having thisconversation, I don't even want
to, but maybe you have to forwhatever reason you believe that
you have to.
The I messaging is is part of,and we have lots of tools that
(36:28):
help support bridging that gapin that conversation where you
still get to honor yourboundaries, your voice, what you
need to express, while stillrespecting what's going on on
the other side right, you'restill going to have this, like
you probably would show up thewith your authenticity,
regardless but the potentialways of positioning or the final
(36:51):
outcome.
Jess (36:52):
You might be a little bit more willing to just let
somebody go again if it'spersonal or if it's work and
you're like I have to go toanother meeting with them an
hour later.
Claude (37:00):
I mean and then there is also how you consider say OK,
bye, bye, because that isphysically right, you can cut
them off.
But then you can cut them offemotionally Right, you're still
going to have to work with it,with them, but you're not going
to have this relationship,emotional relationship, because
(37:22):
it doesn't bring you anything.
I think there's a differencebetween physical and emotional.
Irina Alexander (37:28):
You know, breakup no yes and no, because
it's very easy to say, well, cutthem off, I'm no longer
emotionally involved with you.
That's great in theory, theory.
In reality, there's very fewpeople.
I want to say I'm one of them,but in reality there are very
few people who can end therelationship and still be
friends or still be civil.
Claude (37:50):
Yeah, I would say more colleagues than friends, because
friendship is emotional, rightit's harder to transition all of
a sudden.
Irina Alexander (37:58):
Okay, you did something, cut it off and I'm
moving on.
You have a history.
It's great in theory.
In real life it's not.
You have to get into the rootcause and you have to figure out
what pissed you off.
Why did you let them go in yourlife?
Why did not align?
So there has to be a closure.
The loop needs to be closedemotionally for you to truly let
(38:19):
the person go and then yetstill treat them with respect.
Because if you're just goinginto avoidance mode, well, I'm
just going to treat you as acolleague and no more.
That's great on the surface, butyou did not process it.
So, being able to close theloop, get your closure on
everything that is happening,realize that, okay, this person
didn't align with what I am, butI'm still grieving my
(38:43):
friendship because I spent twoyears, one year, six months,
whatever it is with this person.
You still have to process it.
So that's where emotionalliteracy comes in place is being
truly honest with yourselvesthat, hey, I still miss this
person.
I love to hang out and haveafter work drinks.
When the loop is closed, then,when you truly can just become a
(39:03):
acquaintances or colleagueswithout any negative or
expressed emotions towards them,and that's why I said it's
easier in theory, but inpractice you truly have to
process it and you have to godeep in order to let it go okay,
yeah, I don't know, that'ssomething that everybody can
handle.
Jess (39:21):
I think a lot of people lean so much on the emotion that
time is just cutting off.
Irina Alexander (39:25):
Yeah, that's why a lot of people physically
remove themselves, because theycannot emotionally coexist.
Jess (39:31):
Jen, specifically to you what's a truth about burnout or
healing that you wish more womenknew?
Jen Hardy (39:39):
A truth about burnout is the fact that we don't talk
about the guilt and the shamethat's attached to it.
What do you mean?
Well, value and productivity,equaling my identity and who I
am and wearing it as a badge,then the silent saboteur is the
potential, the guilt and theshame that shows up when I'm
going to slow down, I'm going toback off, I'm going to do less,
(40:01):
I need to rest, I'm going totake time for me.
Someone's got it worse,someone's got it harder,
someone's struggling more.
I've got it easy.
Whatever, I'm supposed to bethe strong one.
I was built to be resilient.
That was more my story.
So there's this guilt and thisshame that comes up that, no, I
can't, I can't take time for me.
(40:21):
I can't, I can't rest.
I was in a position where Iwasn't financially contributing
as much as I wanted to in thepartnership I'm in, in my
relationship, and so the ideathat I was at home but had all
this free time not chosen freetime, but I have all this free
time.
But then there's, like thisguilt, when I'm also exhausted
(40:42):
and want to take a nap or go fora walk instead of work on
something.
There's this juxtaposition,right.
There's so much guilt and shamearound putting ourself first so
that we don't end up in thatburnout position.
It's a cultural thing that'sreally gotten nailed into us, do
you think also it comes withage.
Claude (40:59):
As you get older you start to be more loose about the
importance of your time, of notfeeling guilty.
Jen Hardy (41:08):
I think it can come with age If you are taking
enough time to like, broadenyour perspective and open your
mind.
It's unfortunate that I can sayI've met plenty of 60 year olds
who they're still wearing itlike a badge of honor and they,
you know, they haven't seenanything different.
Our Gen Z is a beautifulexample, because they're the
(41:28):
generation out there rocking theboat right now saying, oh screw
this, I don't want to live thekind of life you lived, where it
was miserable hours a day andyou barely make enough ends meet
to survive.
They're like I want to workbecause I enjoy it.
I want to work because there'sa mission and a purpose and
there's value, and I commendthem for that.
And they're there shaking theboat for people, and it's a good
(41:50):
thing.
Many of us, as we get older,realize this isn't worth it, but
some of the people have it sodeeply ingrained and they're so
they're in an environment that'sso closed in they never see
outside of it.
Jess (42:02):
We'd love for you to share what's one small thing they can
do with someone else to beginstepping out of burnout today.
Irina Alexander (42:08):
If you are in a position of having a bestie,
sit down and have anuncomfortable conversation and
express what you've been feeling, what you've been going through
.
If you truly have a bestie thatyou work with, it will be very,
very beneficial.
You will feel good and it willget you closer, just to sharing
(42:31):
your experience and what you'vebeen going through, and it's
very healing for both.
Jen Hardy (42:35):
Add to that shame lives in silence.
So when you bring that to thelight and you're willing to
speak, shame loses its grip alittle goosebumps for that.
Claude (42:44):
Thank you so much, jen and ariana.
We we learned so much in, youknow, the 30 or so minutes.
I mean it's incredible and ouraudience can already start to
use this tool.
You know this wholecommunication being being
authentic, pausing not to be ayes right away.
Where can our audience find you?
Irina Alexander (43:04):
Our website, MotiveActionacademy, has all of
our social media links, ouremail, our phone number, so one
stop we'll get you all theinformation.
Claude (43:14):
Motiveactionacademy Perfect and we'll make sure to
add them on our show notes.
Work besties.
Thank you so much for listening.
I'm sure you really trulyenjoyed as much as we did.
Jen and Irina.
In the meantime, like forward,subscribe and we'll see you next
week.
Thank you.
Jess (43:34):
Remember whether you're swapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless meetings or just sending
that perfectly timed meme.
Having a work bestie is likehaving your own personal hype
squad.
Claude (43:47):
So keep lifting each other, laughing through the
chaos and, of course, thriving.
Until next time, stay positive,stay productive and don't
forget to keep supporting eachother.
Jen Hardy (44:00):
Work besties.
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