November 10, 2025 • 28 mins
You took the weekend off, but somehow still woke up tired on Monday. Why? This week, Work Besties Who Podcast welcomes Anna Hindell — a Gestalt Psychotherapist and Certified Iyengar Yoga Teacher — who’s redefining how we think about burnout, stress, and recovery.
Anna shares how true healing begins by reconnecting with your body, not just your thoughts. Together, we unpack why high achievers stay stuck in burnout cycles, how to recognize the early signs, and a simple one-minute grounding practice you can start using today.
Listen if you’ve ever:
💎 Felt exhausted even after “resting”
💎 Said “I’m fine” when you weren’t
💎 Needed a reminder to slow down — without guilt
🕒 Timestamps / Chapters
00:00 – Intro | Why burnout doesn’t go away with time off
02:00 – Anna’s path from movement to mind-body therapy
05:00 – What Gestalt Therapy actually means (“making the whole whole”)
09:00 – The link between your physical body and emotional burnout
12:00 – When over-functioning turns into avoidance
15:00 – How community and friendship help heal stress
19:00 – Micro-moments that reset your nervous system
24:00 – Anna’s one-minute body scan for calm
27:00 – Jess & Claude’s reflections and takeaways
🧘 Key Takeaways
- Burnout isn’t solved by more rest — it’s solved by awareness.
- Your body often notices stress before your brain admits it.
- Connection (to self and to others) is medicine.
- A minute of breathing with awareness can change your entire day.
👤 Guest: Anna Hindell
Anna is a Gestalt Psychotherapist and Certified Iyengar Yoga Teacher based in New York City, helping adults, teens, and couples reconnect to themselves through movement, mindfulness, and body awareness.
Website: www.annahindell.com
Instagram: @annahindellpsychotherapy
Facebook: Anna Hindell, LCSW-R, CIYT
LinkedIn: Anna Hindell, LCSW-R, CIYT
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess K (00:00):
Hello everybody.
Today's guest has reshaped howwe think about burnout and
healing.
Claude F (00:06):
Anna Hindell is a Gestalt psychotherapist, a
certified iyengar yoga teacher,and a specialist in helping
people get out of that cycle ofstress.
And finally feel likethemselves again.
Jess K (00:20):
So if you've ever felt like your thoughts are racing
nonstop or that your burnoutdoesn't magically go away after
a weekend off, this episode isfor you.
Claude F (00:29):
Anna shares why true recovery starts by reconnecting
with your body and how even highachievers can find more ease,
calm, and clarity.
Jess K (00:39):
So stay with us to the end because Anna's gonna offer a
super simple daily practicethat you can start immediately
to calm your nervous systems.
Claude F (00:48):
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess K (00:56):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other
up, laugh through the chaos,and thrive together in every
industry.
Work besties!
Anna Hindell (01:08):
Hi Anna, welcome! Hi, Claude and Jess.
It's so nice to be here.
Thank you for that really niceintroduction.
Jess K (01:15):
So we're so excited to have you today.
So we thought we would startoff with a hard-hitting
question.
Was there a specific moment orelement that made you realize
that your body needed to be apart of your healing process?
Anna Hindell (01:29):
Such a great question.
I personally have a longhistory of movement in my life.
I grew up as a competitivegymnast.
But in terms of the mind-bodyapproach to health, it wasn't
until my 20s after college thatI got into therapy with a
gestalt psychotherapist.
And this is an approach,really, where the body is the
(01:52):
house of the emotion, and thatis what informs the mind.
So we're often really connectedwith our thinking mind, but
it's really about getting intouch with our body and our
sensations and what's going onbelow the neck that informs us
of what's happening in ourminds.
Claude F (02:10):
So that's the definition of gestalt
psychotherapy.
Anna Hindell (02:14):
No, it's a seemingly simple question, but a
little bit hard because it'ssuch an experiential approach.
So gestalt means whole, andit's an approach where we look
at the individual sort of brokenup into parts.
And so if you think aboutyourself, you know, you might
feel like, oh, I have this angryside, and then I have this
(02:36):
playful side, and I have thishappy side.
When is it that you contactthem?
And when do these differentsides emerge?
And it's usually like dependingon how you're feeling or who
you're with.
So in Gestalt Psychotherapy,we're constantly looking at
these different parts and thesedifferent ways that we're
fragmented, and we're constantlylooking and working to feel
(03:00):
whole, which of course we allwant.
So in a typical psychotherapysession, I might um bring out
what sounds like this is areally part of you that really
undermines yourself, and wemight um hone in on that side of
the person, and some people arefamiliar with like the chair
(03:23):
experiment or chair exercise.
This is what gestalt is sort ofknown for.
So we might say, okay, put thatundermining part of you in the
chair, and let's have aconversation with that side of
you.
So I might have you sit in inyour seat and then talk to the
(03:44):
side of you that is negative orundermines you, is not grounded,
and then you would get up andsit in the chair and be that
part and see what they have tosay back to you.
And you kind of go back andforth, and that's just one
example, and we learn all aboutthe different sides of us, and
(04:05):
it's not necessarily, it'susually not what we think.
It's not like, oh, here's thisside I'm just trying to get rid
of and I'm trying to argue with.
It's like, let's look at thisreally good intention and let's
look at what the purpose of thisside is doing, and it's usually
um trying to protect you,usually kind of started from a
(04:28):
younger place of could betrauma.
That's one way of working withlike uh a way that we might be
fragmented to form arelationship with this different
part and start to integratethat part into your whole self.
So I hope that makes sense.
Claude F (04:48):
Yeah, but like for example, let's talk to the angry
side.
So you just say that you knowyou're not trying to repress
that side, but it's more aboutunderstanding, right?
Anna Hindell (05:00):
Well, understanding is kind of an
intellectual thing, and whatwe're really doing in Gestalt is
going into feel the feelingstate.
So there's the thinking mind,and then there's the feeling.
I might say, Claude, where doyou feel this anger in your
body?
If you were to kind of go inand sense where where are you
(05:24):
angry?
How do you know you're angry?
What does that feel like foryou?
So I don't necessarily need todo a formal chair experiment,
but we could just talk about it.
And maybe you go, oh, in mychest, it feels heavy, and we
might um spend a little time inyour chest and what that feels
like, and all of the historyabout that part of you.
(05:47):
So it's not to say, let's havethat part go away or wrestle
with it, but more of just let'sreally respect it and let's look
at that and let's see what thatpart does for you.
And then the other reallyhallmark part aspect of Gestalt
therapy is the relational piece.
So it's not just you workingwith your angry part, but I'm in
(06:10):
the room with you.
And then there's how is it tocontact that part in front of me
with me as part of the field?
Or could your angry part saysomething to me?
And can I talk back to thatangry part in a loving way?
It's more of like, let's learneverything about this part of
(06:33):
you, this side of you, so thatwe can see what what's the need.
It's all about another piece,is like it's all about the need
cycle.
So for Claude and Jess, youmight you might be sitting here,
and if you check in with yourbody, maybe there's a need,
maybe you're feeling thirsty.
And so many of the needs wehave, we don't even think about
(06:56):
it.
It's like, oh, I'm tired, I'mgonna go take a nap, or I'm
hungry, I'm gonna reach forfood.
But then we get into somehigher level needs.
I really feel lonely and Iwanna be with a friend.
Oh, but then some other sidescome in.
Oh, don't reach out, you mightget rejected, you might get
burned.
Goodness.
You know, we look, yeah.
(07:18):
So we look at all of thesedifferent sides that come out
and kind of interrupt your wayof moving forward with a need.
I don't know.
I get really jazzed andexcited.
Jess K (07:32):
It's it's so interesting.
So you you bring the gestaltside of the psychotherapy, but
how does the yoga come intothis?
I think that's where I'm I'mconfused.
Anna Hindell (07:43):
I really respect them as two different
disciplines, which they are, butthey're both connected in that
it's about um getting in touchwith your body.
I mean, we we can have lots ofsensations in in our head, like,
oh, I clench my teeth, or Ifeel this pain in my temples,
but most of it is like from theneck down.
(08:04):
And um, I think of it like youwant to create some space,
especially when you think aboutthe qualities of getting anxious
or tense or some of thefeelings that we might put in
the category of negative, not ina judgmental way, but just in a
way of like, oh yeah, it's Idon't really want to have that
(08:28):
on my way to work.
So it's um kind of droppingyour awareness down into your
body and and noticing, oh wow, Ihave this tightness in my
chest, or I've been clenching myjaw for the past hour.
And um how can I how can I workwith that?
And does it feel familiar?
(08:49):
And how do I connect the dotsto uh what is happening in my
life right now?
It could be, oh, it was like atough subway ride and I'm tense,
but then you can also thinkabout things like trauma, where
we really do get stuck in timeand in our bodies about
(09:11):
particular emotions.
And that's also really wherethe relationship in
psychotherapy when I work withclients is addressed because we
have to build up enough trust,enough good feelings.
Jess K (09:24):
Our work bestie community, one of the things
we've noticed that theydefinitely are working through
is burnout.
Is there elements that yourecognize it whether it's uh
emotional or physical that helpaddress, okay, this is you're in
a burnout situation and you do?
Anna Hindell (09:42):
In a perfect world, we'd get there before
we're actually burnt out.
And and maybe we can kind oftalk about what it is for a
moment because it's not justlike tired or overworked or like
you had a bad day.
But I think of burnout as likea chronic way that you're kind
of giving more and you're notgetting back the good food, so
(10:04):
to speak, from whether that's ajob or a relationship.
Um, if I were to work withsomeone with burnout, I would
really want to have work withthem to contact what are their
needs, and then also how do theyturn off or avoid their needs?
(10:27):
Because I think that is such atypical New York thing to do
after you say your name, it'slike, what do you do for work?
And work, um it's a veryimportant thing.
And people tend to just kind ofput their head down and go and
go and go, and then before theyknow it, it's like their
(10:48):
reserves are gone.
So if if I were to slow someonedown and be like, okay, well,
what is that need?
And oh, you're you're tired,but how do you ignore it?
It's so it's not just take abreak at five, go home.
It's more of like how to staywith your needs in live time
(11:12):
over time.
I would never say to a client,like, oh, I'm teaching you this,
but it's just sort of the way Iwork with people.
Like, oh, let's pay attentionto your needs, and oh, you're
you're so burnt out.
And how did that happen?
In general, I think over timein the day-to-day, whether it's
work, a weekend, your time athome, to just start to pay
(11:35):
attention.
I'm craving some play, I'mcraving some joy, I'm craving to
sit down and take a load off.
So it's there's not a likequick fix for burnout because as
you know, it happens over time,and then it can take some time
to undo.
Claude F (11:54):
Once you are in the burnout situation, you don't
know your needs anymore becauseyou don't think right.
You know, you are being like alittle hamster and they're the
wheel, you don't know your needsbecause you're done.
Anna Hindell (12:06):
Right.
You might not even know you'reburnt out.
You might think, like, why am Iso tired?
I slept a full night for thepast week.
To me, that's some of themagical space of therapy because
it's just it's this space toexplore, and there's no
judgment, and all feelings arewelcome and all thoughts are
welcome.
And so we get to kind of staywith how did you get here?
(12:30):
How did this happen?
Like, let's look at that, let'slook at the ways that you're
turning off your connection withyour body, right?
Like, how many people do youknow say, Oh, I should really
exercise and I should reallydrink more water, and all these
should start to happen.
And it's right.
Claude F (12:51):
But you finally start.
Well, I'm starting, yeah.
But for a long time, it was,you know, I know I should, you
know, I should have could, youknow, can always stop.
Anna Hindell (13:01):
And so if I were working with you, we might look
at like, wow, what's the historythere?
What was important for you,Claude, about turning off those
needs and just like going fullsteam ahead?
And it probably was very usefulat some point to do that and
probably took you far in life orto where you are now, but
(13:23):
there's that other side of I'mpaying the price now.
Yeah.
Right?
Like it kind of comes andsneaks up on us if we turn it
off, turn off what we need, whatwe want, what brings us joy.
Jess K (13:36):
So, Anna, you bring up a good point.
So there are rationales thatcaused us to get to those
points.
Once we do realize, or you'reat least are noticing something
feels off, what would be thefirst step for somebody?
Anna Hindell (13:49):
Yeah, I mean, I'm biased toward therapy,
obviously.
I think it's like a reallymagical space where people can
can heal.
But you know, I know therapy isnot for everyone, and I think
that it's really depending onyour own self-awareness, it
could be let me find someone tohelp out, because oftentimes
(14:10):
when we're in it, so to speak,we can't see and we don't know
what's happening.
And that's where like a coachor a therapist or working with
someone like me would be veryuseful.
And sometimes just havingsomeone repeat back what you're
actually doing can be so helpfulbecause we can't see it when
(14:30):
we're in it.
Jess K (14:31):
Yeah, especially somebody who is not a part of
your everyday life or existencein total, because then they also
have some type of bias orelement of wanting to see you in
a certain way too.
So having someone who has nobackground usually helps.
Anna Hindell (14:45):
Yeah, and it it kind of makes me chuckle.
I think about often like peoplearen't like banging down the
door to get to therapy.
Like some people are super intoit, but for the most part, I
see people that are burnt outand they're like, I've tried
acupuncture, I've tried thiscoach, I've gone to my doctor, I
thought I had IBS, the doctortold me to go to therapy.
(15:07):
You know, it's like it's likeirony, you don't have a physical
problem, it's not yourdigestive system, it's just
whatever that is that you'reeither driving yourself in a
chronic way or some chronicsadness or agitation or anxiety,
(15:29):
well, some feeling becomes,I'll say, chronic, habitual, out
of context and out ofawareness.
And that's when it can be a bitof a problem.
Jess K (15:40):
So, knowing that we are a podcast focused on the work
bestie community, a lot of ourwork besties do leverage each
other when they are insituations whether it's burnout
or stress or any of those thingsthat people want to have
conversations about.
How do you feel the role ofcommunity and that support
system can play in recovery?
Anna Hindell (16:01):
I love this question because especially
being in New York, this wordcommunity, it's it's it even
feels kind of fragmented.
Maybe it's a little bitdifferent in a post-COVID world,
I'm thinking, because I thinkwith all that isolation, people
started to realize we need eachother.
And I personally have a bestiewho I text with every now and
(16:23):
then, like throughout the day.
And it's just like thisdisappointment happened, or like
I had this win.
I'm not saying don't go totherapy, but for some people,
that's really good food for thesoul to just be able to connect,
to feel heard, to feel safe byexpress expressing yourself to
(16:44):
someone who you know is anon-judgmental person.
Jess K (16:47):
And that can I love the way of calling a new oh, your
work, your bestie food for thesoul.
I kind of like that.
Anna Hindell (16:57):
Yeah, right, because it's true, it's like
like there's different types offood.
I think about that a lot.
There's like the thoughts wehave, I mean, there's the food
we eat and drink, but thenthere's like just emotional
information we take in.
I was just talking to a clientwho's like, Oh, I wanted a break
and and one on Instagram, andthen she's totally distraught
(17:21):
because of all the news and thestate of the world.
So it's also like you know,paying attention to like this
client had a need to relax, andthen that brought her to a state
of distress.
So we looked at that of likewhat what would be a better way
of moving toward that that rest,that softness, the little break
(17:46):
from your work, even if youhave like five minutes, maybe
that means just like go make acup of tea, don't go online.
And I think that it's sometimeseasier said than done for
people because like they getkind of addicted to checking
different websites or socialmedia.
Jess K (18:02):
We had a previous podcast um around the power of
yoga and how even just likethree minutes can really help
reset your mind um by justreleasing maybe the tensions in
your shoulders or um even thebreathing.
The breathing helps to rightexactly.
(18:23):
Yeah, we agree with you.
There's like more constructiveways to use your five, ten
minutes verse scrolling.
Anna Hindell (18:30):
This is so interesting because when people
come in my office, I'll just youknow, hey, so what are you
feeling in your body?
I don't always start that way,but that's a nice way to start.
And often there's like tensionsomewhere, and people don't even
know it until they check in,and that tension was creating
(18:51):
the jaw hurting, or oh, I had astomachache, and I didn't even
notice.
So it's almost like let's juststart with take with surveying
the scene inside your body, andfrom there it might be like,
let's do a chest opening, orlet's like extend our arms up,
or let's stand on our legs andhave your back against the wall
(19:14):
and see how that feels.
So I call all of these thingsexperiments.
This is a way that Gestaltworks.
Okay, so you have this tensionin your legs.
Often it's more of like peopledon't even feel their body,
they're just in their thinkingmind all the time.
So, what is it like to stand upwith your back against the
wall?
(19:35):
Yeah, and like noticing, youknow, I'm doing it right now as
we're talking, and I'm like, ohyeah, there I am.
Claude F (19:42):
That's where you're putting the iyengar.
Anna Hindell (19:44):
Yeah, well, it's not quite, I wouldn't call that
yoga, but I would say that thatis a way of getting in your
body.
It's kind of hard when you'vebeen trained in different
things.
So it's like I just kind of gowith my instinct, I see the
human, and we work from there.
So it's not like a yoga pose tosit and feel your back against
(20:05):
the chair and your feet on theground, but I might do some
yoga-like things like what is itlike to stand up in tadrasana
mountain pose with your back atthe wall, feel the support
there.
What does that give you?
Is it nice?
Is it familiar?
(20:25):
Do you feel more of yourself?
And then what happens?
Another main cornerstone ofGestalt is we're very interested
in the here and now presentmoment.
We call this a phenomenology.
If I say this to you, I see yousmile, and and I see you smile
back at me, and I'm smiling.
And what does that do for you?
How does that change yourexperience?
(20:46):
Yeah.
Jess K (20:48):
I like that.
I like the idea of the here andthe now and the present moment
because it definitely makes youtake that step back.
Anna Hindell (20:55):
In any discipline, I'm iyengar yoga teacher, but
all yoga is all about the hereand now present.
So that is a place where thereis some crossover.
Claude F (21:05):
Yeah, because that's what also the burnout or like
anxieties, the what looking atthe past and then also looking
at the future, what can happen,and then and not being on the
present.
And that is really realizingthat just step in the present is
a big step into relaxing.
Anna Hindell (21:26):
Yeah, it's true.
And sometimes being in thepresent, you realize you're not
relaxed, right?
It's like just be, you know,sometimes people think oh, if
I'm present, everything is likecool and chill and relaxing, but
it's I'm actually feelingreally sad or I'm feeling really
anxious, and that's part of whyI'm not present because you
(21:48):
don't want to go there, youknow, and then we might explore
some of that of like what's sowhere do you feel that pain or
where do you feel that sadness?
And what's it like to maybegive some breath to it or
breathe into that space andexplore it a little bit?
Jess K (22:05):
So it's funny you bring that up.
You know how if you've got likean Apple Watch, it does that.
Don't forget to do your um mindmeditation.
Came up yesterday, and Ihappened to be with my daughter,
and it was like, do one minuteof just thinking of gratitude
about somebody that you're happyfor the day.
So I had her and I both do it.
It was opening because so forher, I was like, Oh, what did
(22:26):
you think about?
She's talked about um like herday and what she was really
grateful for.
And then she asked me, and Iwas like, I don't know, for some
reason I had like this hit ofsadness, but I didn't have the
sad day.
And I think it was just takingthe moment to feel what I was
feeling.
So I I totally understand whatyou mean.
So I was able to understand,like, okay, now I know why I was
upset.
(22:46):
I felt like there was somethingI had done throughout the day
that didn't feel authentic tome, and I was kind of replaying
that.
Anna Hindell (22:52):
I'm so glad you said that.
It makes so much sense, andsomething similar happened to me
yesterday because I was justsort of like, I'm working, I'm
working, I'm working.
And and then I left and it waslike just some reflection.
It was the end of the day, itwas getting toward the end of
the week, and it was like, itwasn't that I wasn't connected
(23:13):
or avoiding something, but itwas just to enter into a space
of allowing yourself to feelwhatever's present for you can
be really powerful.
And sometimes feelings emergethat you're just like, whoa,
where did that come from?
But usually if you slow downand connect the dots, it's like,
well, of course, that thingthat happened was really
(23:36):
upsetting.
Or I'm really anxious aboutthat presentation I'm giving
next week, and I finally pausingto think about it.
Claude F (23:44):
Yeah.
So how do you come out of thisstate, right?
Because I understand, likesuddenly you realize, but that
doesn't make it disappear.
Anna Hindell (23:53):
Right.
Well, that's where I think thetherapeutic relationship comes
into play and the ongoing trust,consistency, and um almost like
the work bestie, not that I'manyone's best, you know, my
clients are not my besties, butit's like sometimes knowing it's
Wednesday and I'm wow, I justgot a wave of that sadness.
(24:17):
But I know I'm gonna go talk toAnna on Friday, and I can hold
it until then and I can journalabout it.
Sometimes when you know there'sthat rock of that therapist,
the therapy appointment, or thatbest friend, or that place
where you know you can releasethose feelings, that can be
(24:38):
really powerful and really carryyou to carry you through
something difficult.
Jess K (24:43):
Anna, how can our uh work best community find you if
they're interested in learningmore?
Anna Hindell (24:48):
My website is my name, annahindell.com, and my
office is on 31st and 5th inManhattan, and I see people
virtually and in person.
I see uh teenagers, adults, andcouples.
Fantastic.
Jess K (25:05):
So we do have one last question for you.
Okay, what's that one simpledaily practice that you can
start using immediately to helpcalm your nervous system?
Anna Hindell (25:16):
I do this all the time.
It's really slowing yourselfdown, meaning, okay, I'm gonna
take my attention outward andbring it inward.
And you can do this when you'resitting at your desk, you can
do it when you're walking to thetrain, you can do it anytime,
and just start to slow yourbreath down and check out what's
(25:37):
happening inside.
It's almost like a little bitof a body scan.
So if you're sitting, it couldbe feeling your feet on the
ground, going up through yourlegs, feeling your buttocks in
your seat, and all the way upthrough the crown of the head,
feeling your arms.
And it's much easier to do whenyour body is making contact
with something, like a chair.
(25:58):
Otherwise, you can just putyour hands on your legs or a
hand on your heart and you startto feel yourself in space.
And that can be really powerfuljust in itself of like, oh, I
have this body, and this body iscommunicating a lot of
information to me.
And if you're not able to stop,if you're feeling agitated, you
can do this when you'rewalking, of just like putting
(26:19):
the judgment aside, saying, Allright, I'm gonna just let you
kind of hang out over there, andjust checking in, slowing your
breath down.
It can take a minute or so, andjust taking some slow and
steady breaths while you'rewalking to start to really feel
your body in space.
So it's actually subtle andquiet, but over time you you get
(26:44):
to know what to engage in or toput aside.
Claude F (26:48):
Yeah, it's so funny because as you were saying that,
I was like actually starting todo it myself, and I I did feel
like something like a release ofsome sort.
Anna Hindell (26:58):
Yeah.
So I'm so glad you said that,Claude, because like just
bringing our attention to ourbody, something will shift.
I can't say what or how, butsomething will change, and
that's so interesting to me.
And so it's almost likeeveryone's own self-exploration
to see what state am I in now,and like where am I holding
(27:21):
tension that I don't need tohold?
And it's all about knowingyourself and accepting yourself,
and and that work can justcontinue within the relationship
of therapy as well.
Jess K (27:32):
Right.
Thank you, Anna, so much.
We've learned so much.
Anna Hindell (27:36):
This has been so fun, such a pleasure to talk to
both of you.
Claude F (27:39):
This was such a grounding and clarifying
conversation.
Jess K (27:42):
I feel like we all just exhaled together, and hopefully
our listeners did too.
Anna Hindell (27:47):
You're so welcome.
It's been such a pleasure.
Claude F (27:49):
My takeaway right now doesn't need more rest, it needs
awareness about our body andmore connection to ourselves.
So if you're listening rightnow and feel overwhelmed, go
back and re-listen to that oneminute practice Anna shared.
And if this episode helped you,pass it on to someone who needs
it too.
Jess K (28:08):
Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe.
So you never miss aconversation that matters.
And until next time, keepsupporting each other.
Remember whether you'reswapping snacks in the break
room, rescuing each other fromendless.
Hello everybody.
Today's guest has reshaped howwe think about burnout and
healing.
Claude F (00:06):
Anna Hindell is a Gestalt psychotherapist, a
certified iyengar yoga teacher,and a specialist in helping
people get out of that cycle ofstress.
And finally feel likethemselves again.
Jess K (00:20):
So if you've ever felt like your thoughts are racing
nonstop or that your burnoutdoesn't magically go away after
a weekend off, this episode isfor you.
Claude F (00:29):
Anna shares why true recovery starts by reconnecting
with your body and how even highachievers can find more ease,
calm, and clarity.
Jess K (00:39):
So stay with us to the end because Anna's gonna offer a
super simple daily practicethat you can start immediately
to calm your nervous systems.
Claude F (00:48):
Hi, I'm Claude.
And I'm Jess.
We are corporate employees byday, entrepreneurs by night, and
work besties for life.
Jess K (00:56):
Join us as we explore how work besties lift each other
up, laugh through the chaos,and thrive together in every
industry.
Work besties!
Anna Hindell (01:08):
Hi Anna, welcome! Hi, Claude and Jess.
It's so nice to be here.
Thank you for that really niceintroduction.
Jess K (01:15):
So we're so excited to have you today.
So we thought we would startoff with a hard-hitting
question.
Was there a specific moment orelement that made you realize
that your body needed to be apart of your healing process?
Anna Hindell (01:29):
Such a great question.
I personally have a longhistory of movement in my life.
I grew up as a competitivegymnast.
But in terms of the mind-bodyapproach to health, it wasn't
until my 20s after college thatI got into therapy with a
gestalt psychotherapist.
And this is an approach,really, where the body is the
(01:52):
house of the emotion, and thatis what informs the mind.
So we're often really connectedwith our thinking mind, but
it's really about getting intouch with our body and our
sensations and what's going onbelow the neck that informs us
of what's happening in ourminds.
Claude F (02:10):
So that's the definition of gestalt
psychotherapy.
Anna Hindell (02:14):
No, it's a seemingly simple question, but a
little bit hard because it'ssuch an experiential approach.
So gestalt means whole, andit's an approach where we look
at the individual sort of brokenup into parts.
And so if you think aboutyourself, you know, you might
feel like, oh, I have this angryside, and then I have this
(02:36):
playful side, and I have thishappy side.
When is it that you contactthem?
And when do these differentsides emerge?
And it's usually like dependingon how you're feeling or who
you're with.
So in Gestalt Psychotherapy,we're constantly looking at
these different parts and thesedifferent ways that we're
fragmented, and we're constantlylooking and working to feel
(03:00):
whole, which of course we allwant.
So in a typical psychotherapysession, I might um bring out
what sounds like this is areally part of you that really
undermines yourself, and wemight um hone in on that side of
the person, and some people arefamiliar with like the chair
(03:23):
experiment or chair exercise.
This is what gestalt is sort ofknown for.
So we might say, okay, put thatundermining part of you in the
chair, and let's have aconversation with that side of
you.
So I might have you sit in inyour seat and then talk to the
(03:44):
side of you that is negative orundermines you, is not grounded,
and then you would get up andsit in the chair and be that
part and see what they have tosay back to you.
And you kind of go back andforth, and that's just one
example, and we learn all aboutthe different sides of us, and
(04:05):
it's not necessarily, it'susually not what we think.
It's not like, oh, here's thisside I'm just trying to get rid
of and I'm trying to argue with.
It's like, let's look at thisreally good intention and let's
look at what the purpose of thisside is doing, and it's usually
um trying to protect you,usually kind of started from a
(04:28):
younger place of could betrauma.
That's one way of working withlike uh a way that we might be
fragmented to form arelationship with this different
part and start to integratethat part into your whole self.
So I hope that makes sense.
Claude F (04:48):
Yeah, but like for example, let's talk to the angry
side.
So you just say that you knowyou're not trying to repress
that side, but it's more aboutunderstanding, right?
Anna Hindell (05:00):
Well, understanding is kind of an
intellectual thing, and whatwe're really doing in Gestalt is
going into feel the feelingstate.
So there's the thinking mind,and then there's the feeling.
I might say, Claude, where doyou feel this anger in your
body?
If you were to kind of go inand sense where where are you
(05:24):
angry?
How do you know you're angry?
What does that feel like foryou?
So I don't necessarily need todo a formal chair experiment,
but we could just talk about it.
And maybe you go, oh, in mychest, it feels heavy, and we
might um spend a little time inyour chest and what that feels
like, and all of the historyabout that part of you.
(05:47):
So it's not to say, let's havethat part go away or wrestle
with it, but more of just let'sreally respect it and let's look
at that and let's see what thatpart does for you.
And then the other reallyhallmark part aspect of Gestalt
therapy is the relational piece.
So it's not just you workingwith your angry part, but I'm in
(06:10):
the room with you.
And then there's how is it tocontact that part in front of me
with me as part of the field?
Or could your angry part saysomething to me?
And can I talk back to thatangry part in a loving way?
It's more of like, let's learneverything about this part of
(06:33):
you, this side of you, so thatwe can see what what's the need.
It's all about another piece,is like it's all about the need
cycle.
So for Claude and Jess, youmight you might be sitting here,
and if you check in with yourbody, maybe there's a need,
maybe you're feeling thirsty.
And so many of the needs wehave, we don't even think about
(06:56):
it.
It's like, oh, I'm tired, I'mgonna go take a nap, or I'm
hungry, I'm gonna reach forfood.
But then we get into somehigher level needs.
I really feel lonely and Iwanna be with a friend.
Oh, but then some other sidescome in.
Oh, don't reach out, you mightget rejected, you might get
burned.
Goodness.
You know, we look, yeah.
(07:18):
So we look at all of thesedifferent sides that come out
and kind of interrupt your wayof moving forward with a need.
I don't know.
I get really jazzed andexcited.
Jess K (07:32):
It's it's so interesting.
So you you bring the gestaltside of the psychotherapy, but
how does the yoga come intothis?
I think that's where I'm I'mconfused.
Anna Hindell (07:43):
I really respect them as two different
disciplines, which they are, butthey're both connected in that
it's about um getting in touchwith your body.
I mean, we we can have lots ofsensations in in our head, like,
oh, I clench my teeth, or Ifeel this pain in my temples,
but most of it is like from theneck down.
(08:04):
And um, I think of it like youwant to create some space,
especially when you think aboutthe qualities of getting anxious
or tense or some of thefeelings that we might put in
the category of negative, not ina judgmental way, but just in a
way of like, oh yeah, it's Idon't really want to have that
(08:28):
on my way to work.
So it's um kind of droppingyour awareness down into your
body and and noticing, oh wow, Ihave this tightness in my
chest, or I've been clenching myjaw for the past hour.
And um how can I how can I workwith that?
And does it feel familiar?
(08:49):
And how do I connect the dotsto uh what is happening in my
life right now?
It could be, oh, it was like atough subway ride and I'm tense,
but then you can also thinkabout things like trauma, where
we really do get stuck in timeand in our bodies about
(09:11):
particular emotions.
And that's also really wherethe relationship in
psychotherapy when I work withclients is addressed because we
have to build up enough trust,enough good feelings.
Jess K (09:24):
Our work bestie community, one of the things
we've noticed that theydefinitely are working through
is burnout.
Is there elements that yourecognize it whether it's uh
emotional or physical that helpaddress, okay, this is you're in
a burnout situation and you do?
Anna Hindell (09:42):
In a perfect world, we'd get there before
we're actually burnt out.
And and maybe we can kind oftalk about what it is for a
moment because it's not justlike tired or overworked or like
you had a bad day.
But I think of burnout as likea chronic way that you're kind
of giving more and you're notgetting back the good food, so
(10:04):
to speak, from whether that's ajob or a relationship.
Um, if I were to work withsomeone with burnout, I would
really want to have work withthem to contact what are their
needs, and then also how do theyturn off or avoid their needs?
(10:27):
Because I think that is such atypical New York thing to do
after you say your name, it'slike, what do you do for work?
And work, um it's a veryimportant thing.
And people tend to just kind ofput their head down and go and
go and go, and then before theyknow it, it's like their
(10:48):
reserves are gone.
So if if I were to slow someonedown and be like, okay, well,
what is that need?
And oh, you're you're tired,but how do you ignore it?
It's so it's not just take abreak at five, go home.
It's more of like how to staywith your needs in live time
(11:12):
over time.
I would never say to a client,like, oh, I'm teaching you this,
but it's just sort of the way Iwork with people.
Like, oh, let's pay attentionto your needs, and oh, you're
you're so burnt out.
And how did that happen?
In general, I think over timein the day-to-day, whether it's
work, a weekend, your time athome, to just start to pay
(11:35):
attention.
I'm craving some play, I'mcraving some joy, I'm craving to
sit down and take a load off.
So it's there's not a likequick fix for burnout because as
you know, it happens over time,and then it can take some time
to undo.
Claude F (11:54):
Once you are in the burnout situation, you don't
know your needs anymore becauseyou don't think right.
You know, you are being like alittle hamster and they're the
wheel, you don't know your needsbecause you're done.
Anna Hindell (12:06):
Right.
You might not even know you'reburnt out.
You might think, like, why am Iso tired?
I slept a full night for thepast week.
To me, that's some of themagical space of therapy because
it's just it's this space toexplore, and there's no
judgment, and all feelings arewelcome and all thoughts are
welcome.
And so we get to kind of staywith how did you get here?
(12:30):
How did this happen?
Like, let's look at that, let'slook at the ways that you're
turning off your connection withyour body, right?
Like, how many people do youknow say, Oh, I should really
exercise and I should reallydrink more water, and all these
should start to happen.
And it's right.
Claude F (12:51):
But you finally start.
Well, I'm starting, yeah.
But for a long time, it was,you know, I know I should, you
know, I should have could, youknow, can always stop.
Anna Hindell (13:01):
And so if I were working with you, we might look
at like, wow, what's the historythere?
What was important for you,Claude, about turning off those
needs and just like going fullsteam ahead?
And it probably was very usefulat some point to do that and
probably took you far in life orto where you are now, but
(13:23):
there's that other side of I'mpaying the price now.
Yeah.
Right?
Like it kind of comes andsneaks up on us if we turn it
off, turn off what we need, whatwe want, what brings us joy.
Jess K (13:36):
So, Anna, you bring up a good point.
So there are rationales thatcaused us to get to those
points.
Once we do realize, or you'reat least are noticing something
feels off, what would be thefirst step for somebody?
Anna Hindell (13:49):
Yeah, I mean, I'm biased toward therapy,
obviously.
I think it's like a reallymagical space where people can
can heal.
But you know, I know therapy isnot for everyone, and I think
that it's really depending onyour own self-awareness, it
could be let me find someone tohelp out, because oftentimes
(14:10):
when we're in it, so to speak,we can't see and we don't know
what's happening.
And that's where like a coachor a therapist or working with
someone like me would be veryuseful.
And sometimes just havingsomeone repeat back what you're
actually doing can be so helpfulbecause we can't see it when
(14:30):
we're in it.
Jess K (14:31):
Yeah, especially somebody who is not a part of
your everyday life or existencein total, because then they also
have some type of bias orelement of wanting to see you in
a certain way too.
So having someone who has nobackground usually helps.
Anna Hindell (14:45):
Yeah, and it it kind of makes me chuckle.
I think about often like peoplearen't like banging down the
door to get to therapy.
Like some people are super intoit, but for the most part, I
see people that are burnt outand they're like, I've tried
acupuncture, I've tried thiscoach, I've gone to my doctor, I
thought I had IBS, the doctortold me to go to therapy.
(15:07):
You know, it's like it's likeirony, you don't have a physical
problem, it's not yourdigestive system, it's just
whatever that is that you'reeither driving yourself in a
chronic way or some chronicsadness or agitation or anxiety,
(15:29):
well, some feeling becomes,I'll say, chronic, habitual, out
of context and out ofawareness.
And that's when it can be a bitof a problem.
Jess K (15:40):
So, knowing that we are a podcast focused on the work
bestie community, a lot of ourwork besties do leverage each
other when they are insituations whether it's burnout
or stress or any of those thingsthat people want to have
conversations about.
How do you feel the role ofcommunity and that support
system can play in recovery?
Anna Hindell (16:01):
I love this question because especially
being in New York, this wordcommunity, it's it's it even
feels kind of fragmented.
Maybe it's a little bitdifferent in a post-COVID world,
I'm thinking, because I thinkwith all that isolation, people
started to realize we need eachother.
And I personally have a bestiewho I text with every now and
(16:23):
then, like throughout the day.
And it's just like thisdisappointment happened, or like
I had this win.
I'm not saying don't go totherapy, but for some people,
that's really good food for thesoul to just be able to connect,
to feel heard, to feel safe byexpress expressing yourself to
(16:44):
someone who you know is anon-judgmental person.
Jess K (16:47):
And that can I love the way of calling a new oh, your
work, your bestie food for thesoul.
I kind of like that.
Anna Hindell (16:57):
Yeah, right, because it's true, it's like
like there's different types offood.
I think about that a lot.
There's like the thoughts wehave, I mean, there's the food
we eat and drink, but thenthere's like just emotional
information we take in.
I was just talking to a clientwho's like, Oh, I wanted a break
and and one on Instagram, andthen she's totally distraught
(17:21):
because of all the news and thestate of the world.
So it's also like you know,paying attention to like this
client had a need to relax, andthen that brought her to a state
of distress.
So we looked at that of likewhat what would be a better way
of moving toward that that rest,that softness, the little break
(17:46):
from your work, even if youhave like five minutes, maybe
that means just like go make acup of tea, don't go online.
And I think that it's sometimeseasier said than done for
people because like they getkind of addicted to checking
different websites or socialmedia.
Jess K (18:02):
We had a previous podcast um around the power of
yoga and how even just likethree minutes can really help
reset your mind um by justreleasing maybe the tensions in
your shoulders or um even thebreathing.
The breathing helps to rightexactly.
(18:23):
Yeah, we agree with you.
There's like more constructiveways to use your five, ten
minutes verse scrolling.
Anna Hindell (18:30):
This is so interesting because when people
come in my office, I'll just youknow, hey, so what are you
feeling in your body?
I don't always start that way,but that's a nice way to start.
And often there's like tensionsomewhere, and people don't even
know it until they check in,and that tension was creating
(18:51):
the jaw hurting, or oh, I had astomachache, and I didn't even
notice.
So it's almost like let's juststart with take with surveying
the scene inside your body, andfrom there it might be like,
let's do a chest opening, orlet's like extend our arms up,
or let's stand on our legs andhave your back against the wall
(19:14):
and see how that feels.
So I call all of these thingsexperiments.
This is a way that Gestaltworks.
Okay, so you have this tensionin your legs.
Often it's more of like peopledon't even feel their body,
they're just in their thinkingmind all the time.
So, what is it like to stand upwith your back against the
wall?
(19:35):
Yeah, and like noticing, youknow, I'm doing it right now as
we're talking, and I'm like, ohyeah, there I am.
Claude F (19:42):
That's where you're putting the iyengar.
Anna Hindell (19:44):
Yeah, well, it's not quite, I wouldn't call that
yoga, but I would say that thatis a way of getting in your
body.
It's kind of hard when you'vebeen trained in different
things.
So it's like I just kind of gowith my instinct, I see the
human, and we work from there.
So it's not like a yoga pose tosit and feel your back against
(20:05):
the chair and your feet on theground, but I might do some
yoga-like things like what is itlike to stand up in tadrasana
mountain pose with your back atthe wall, feel the support
there.
What does that give you?
Is it nice?
Is it familiar?
(20:25):
Do you feel more of yourself?
And then what happens?
Another main cornerstone ofGestalt is we're very interested
in the here and now presentmoment.
We call this a phenomenology.
If I say this to you, I see yousmile, and and I see you smile
back at me, and I'm smiling.
And what does that do for you?
How does that change yourexperience?
(20:46):
Yeah.
Jess K (20:48):
I like that.
I like the idea of the here andthe now and the present moment
because it definitely makes youtake that step back.
Anna Hindell (20:55):
In any discipline, I'm iyengar yoga teacher, but
all yoga is all about the hereand now present.
So that is a place where thereis some crossover.
Claude F (21:05):
Yeah, because that's what also the burnout or like
anxieties, the what looking atthe past and then also looking
at the future, what can happen,and then and not being on the
present.
And that is really realizingthat just step in the present is
a big step into relaxing.
Anna Hindell (21:26):
Yeah, it's true.
And sometimes being in thepresent, you realize you're not
relaxed, right?
It's like just be, you know,sometimes people think oh, if
I'm present, everything is likecool and chill and relaxing, but
it's I'm actually feelingreally sad or I'm feeling really
anxious, and that's part of whyI'm not present because you
(21:48):
don't want to go there, youknow, and then we might explore
some of that of like what's sowhere do you feel that pain or
where do you feel that sadness?
And what's it like to maybegive some breath to it or
breathe into that space andexplore it a little bit?
Jess K (22:05):
So it's funny you bring that up.
You know how if you've got likean Apple Watch, it does that.
Don't forget to do your um mindmeditation.
Came up yesterday, and Ihappened to be with my daughter,
and it was like, do one minuteof just thinking of gratitude
about somebody that you're happyfor the day.
So I had her and I both do it.
It was opening because so forher, I was like, Oh, what did
(22:26):
you think about?
She's talked about um like herday and what she was really
grateful for.
And then she asked me, and Iwas like, I don't know, for some
reason I had like this hit ofsadness, but I didn't have the
sad day.
And I think it was just takingthe moment to feel what I was
feeling.
So I I totally understand whatyou mean.
So I was able to understand,like, okay, now I know why I was
upset.
(22:46):
I felt like there was somethingI had done throughout the day
that didn't feel authentic tome, and I was kind of replaying
that.
Anna Hindell (22:52):
I'm so glad you said that.
It makes so much sense, andsomething similar happened to me
yesterday because I was justsort of like, I'm working, I'm
working, I'm working.
And and then I left and it waslike just some reflection.
It was the end of the day, itwas getting toward the end of
the week, and it was like, itwasn't that I wasn't connected
(23:13):
or avoiding something, but itwas just to enter into a space
of allowing yourself to feelwhatever's present for you can
be really powerful.
And sometimes feelings emergethat you're just like, whoa,
where did that come from?
But usually if you slow downand connect the dots, it's like,
well, of course, that thingthat happened was really
(23:36):
upsetting.
Or I'm really anxious aboutthat presentation I'm giving
next week, and I finally pausingto think about it.
Claude F (23:44):
Yeah.
So how do you come out of thisstate, right?
Because I understand, likesuddenly you realize, but that
doesn't make it disappear.
Anna Hindell (23:53):
Right.
Well, that's where I think thetherapeutic relationship comes
into play and the ongoing trust,consistency, and um almost like
the work bestie, not that I'manyone's best, you know, my
clients are not my besties, butit's like sometimes knowing it's
Wednesday and I'm wow, I justgot a wave of that sadness.
(24:17):
But I know I'm gonna go talk toAnna on Friday, and I can hold
it until then and I can journalabout it.
Sometimes when you know there'sthat rock of that therapist,
the therapy appointment, or thatbest friend, or that place
where you know you can releasethose feelings, that can be
(24:38):
really powerful and really carryyou to carry you through
something difficult.
Jess K (24:43):
Anna, how can our uh work best community find you if
they're interested in learningmore?
Anna Hindell (24:48):
My website is my name, annahindell.com, and my
office is on 31st and 5th inManhattan, and I see people
virtually and in person.
I see uh teenagers, adults, andcouples.
Fantastic.
Jess K (25:05):
So we do have one last question for you.
Okay, what's that one simpledaily practice that you can
start using immediately to helpcalm your nervous system?
Anna Hindell (25:16):
I do this all the time.
It's really slowing yourselfdown, meaning, okay, I'm gonna
take my attention outward andbring it inward.
And you can do this when you'resitting at your desk, you can
do it when you're walking to thetrain, you can do it anytime,
and just start to slow yourbreath down and check out what's
(25:37):
happening inside.
It's almost like a little bitof a body scan.
So if you're sitting, it couldbe feeling your feet on the
ground, going up through yourlegs, feeling your buttocks in
your seat, and all the way upthrough the crown of the head,
feeling your arms.
And it's much easier to do whenyour body is making contact
with something, like a chair.
(25:58):
Otherwise, you can just putyour hands on your legs or a
hand on your heart and you startto feel yourself in space.
And that can be really powerfuljust in itself of like, oh, I
have this body, and this body iscommunicating a lot of
information to me.
And if you're not able to stop,if you're feeling agitated, you
can do this when you'rewalking, of just like putting
(26:19):
the judgment aside, saying, Allright, I'm gonna just let you
kind of hang out over there, andjust checking in, slowing your
breath down.
It can take a minute or so, andjust taking some slow and
steady breaths while you'rewalking to start to really feel
your body in space.
So it's actually subtle andquiet, but over time you you get
(26:44):
to know what to engage in or toput aside.
Claude F (26:48):
Yeah, it's so funny because as you were saying that,
I was like actually starting todo it myself, and I I did feel
like something like a release ofsome sort.
Anna Hindell (26:58):
Yeah.
So I'm so glad you said that,Claude, because like just
bringing our attention to ourbody, something will shift.
I can't say what or how, butsomething will change, and
that's so interesting to me.
And so it's almost likeeveryone's own self-exploration
to see what state am I in now,and like where am I holding
(27:21):
tension that I don't need tohold?
And it's all about knowingyourself and accepting yourself,
and and that work can justcontinue within the relationship
of therapy as well.
Jess K (27:32):
Right.
Thank you, Anna, so much.
We've learned so much.
Anna Hindell (27:36):
This has been so fun, such a pleasure to talk to
both of you.
Claude F (27:39):
This was such a grounding and clarifying
conversation.
Jess K (27:42):
I feel like we all just exhaled together, and hopefully
our listeners did too.
Anna Hindell (27:47):
You're so welcome.
It's been such a pleasure.
Claude F (27:49):
My takeaway right now doesn't need more rest, it needs
awareness about our body andmore connection to ourselves.
So if you're listening rightnow and feel overwhelmed, go
back and re-listen to that oneminute practice Anna shared.
And if this episode helped you,pass it on to someone who needs
it too.
Jess K (28:08):
Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe.
So you never miss aconversation that matters.
And until next time, keepsupporting each other.
Remember whether you'reswapping snacks in the break
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