November 18, 2019 • 15 mins
Dean Alex Colvin and Susanne Bruyère, Director of the Yang Tan Institute on Employment and Disability, discuss neurodiversity inclusiveness in the workplace. For additional reading, pick up Employment and Disability: Issues, Innovations and Opportunities.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Diane Burton (00:00):
Work is all around us.
It defines us and the future ofwork impacts nearly every person
on our planet.
The ILR school at Cornelluniversity is at the center of
work, labor and employment,influencing policy and practice
on the most pressing issuesfacing employees and employers.
In this episode, Dean AlexColvin talks with Susanne
(00:24):
Bruyère, Director of Yang TanInstitute on Employment and
Disability, about recruiting,hiring and retaining
neurodiverse people.
Dean Colvin (00:35):
Thank you for joining us today.
Welcome Susanne.
Susanne Bruyère (00:37):
Thanks very much for having me.
Dean Colvin (00:40):
So many companies have started initiatives to
affirmatively hire neurodiversepeople, particularly those with
autistic characteristics.
What's driving this recentinterest by businesses in this
population?
Susanne Bruyère (00:52):
Well, quite definitely it's a need for
talent.
The unemployment rate is verylow.
Businesses have many jobs thatare open and they are willing to
explore populations that theyhad previously overlooked.
Many of them have become awarethat people with autistic
characteristics may have skillsand abilities that lend
(01:15):
themselves to many kinds ofjobs.
The tech sector is where theywere originally looking and
they're willing to explore whatis a largely untapped labor
pool.
Dean Colvin (01:26):
So it sounds like it's a combination of both the
economic situation but also agrowing awareness by companies.
Susanne Bruyère (01:32):
An awareness, yes, that they have overlooked
talent before because of bias,because of a lack of awareness.
And now a recognition thatpeople with all kinds of
characteristics, but in thiscase, specifically autistic
characteristics, like attentionto and ability to focus, ability
(01:53):
to see trends and patterns ofdata and other unique
characteristics that people withautism that have enabled them to
open their minds and begin toexplore how could they use these
characteristics in this talentpool, which they previously had
not been willing to look at.
Dean Colvin (02:10):
What can workplaces do to make themselves
organizationally ready torecruit and to hire neurodiverse
people?
Susanne Bruyère (02:18):
Well, you know, if you w ould h ave asked me
four or five years ago, I would've said right away y ou
look for that talent pool.
But we're realizing that toreally make a successful match
over time, it's important to getthe organization ready for
receptivity.
So, and part of that is gettingtop management to articulate
(02:40):
that this is a part of abusiness strategy.
To send the message to theworkforce that this is something
they want, that they see it as alonger term viable solution to a
need for talent and engage theworkforce in support actively.
And then, to create internalreceptivity through education of
(03:01):
supervisors and the workforcemore broadly doing some training
and readying naturally occurringresources like employee
assistance programs, labor andemployment relations
professionals, benefits, HR sothat everyone understands this
is a part of what theorganization wants to do.
(03:22):
It's a value, it's a part of themission and readies them to
support this initiative.
And then establishingrelationships with the community
organizations that can be thatconduit for qualified talent.
Dean Colvin (03:35):
So I want to follow up a little bit and you
mentioned training as being animportant part of this.
What should an organization bedoing to provide good training?
What's the content of thattrading and how do you do it
well?
Susanne Bruyère (03:47):
Well, you know, for supervisors we see it
important to again, you know,send them the message that this
is not just an add on to theirresponsibilities.
This is a part of a broaderimperative for talent to be a
competitive organization.
And how their role in that willbe critical in terms of
(04:08):
orienting the new employees,getting them duly integrated
into the team because sometimeswe see the characteristics can
commonly be for this populationto be a somewhat socially
awkward or socially removed.
So thinking, helping them to geteducated about ways to integrate
people without being overlyforceful in that integration.
(04:31):
And to be comfortable and givingperformance management and to
think about career advancementbecause this population, like
all of us wants an opportunityto grow, develop and move on to
the next generation of jobsthey're capable of.
Dean Colvin (04:45):
I was interested to read that the most recent 2018
CDC report estimates that one in59 out of all eight-year-olds
are diagnosed with autism.
Those numbers are significantlyhigher than they were less than
20 years ago when in 2000 theestimates were that one in 150
(05:05):
children in this age group wasdiagnosed with autism.
What are the implications ofthese changes for workforce
development and for employmentand also for disability public
policy going forward?
Susanne Bruyère (05:18):
Well, I think one is a very obvious is that
we're going to need to ready theworkplace and the workforce for
many more people who areneurodiverse, autism being one
of those characteristics, butother kinds of neurodiversity as
well.
This will mean that we need toprepare workforce development
(05:38):
training systems, workforcedevelopment boards that are
doing job matching for theinevitability of dealing with
people with the kinds ofdifferences that we're seeing in
the neurodiverse population.
It, you know, might be if those,these qualities that we see as
sort of superpowers somecompanies are looking for, but
there can be other things thatcan be also challenging and, you
(06:00):
know, the ability to intervieweffectively is one.
And so it means getting theseworkforce development boards and
the training initiativesequipped to be able to
proactively and effectivelytrain this population so they
can be ready for the workforceand getting workplaces to think
about how they can truly make,the interview process more
(06:23):
inclusive as well as the wholeemployment process from hiring,
orienting, retaining performancemanagement and advancement, much
more inclusive of neurodiversepeople than we have been
historically.
Dean Colvin (06:37):
When you see changes like this and numbers,
there's always that interestingquestion of what's going on.
Is this the case that we'reactually seeing a change in the
proportion of the populationwith neurodiversity?
Or is it that we're actuallymore accurately diagnosing a
neurodiversity that thepopulation was there all along
(06:58):
but we just didn't realize itwas there and we under recognize
this population and perhapsunder served them?
Susanne Bruyère (07:04):
You know, many people are asking that question
and I think the best minds inthe country and internationally
are looking at what is thisetiology.
And I think it as near as weknow now, it is a combination of
something seems to be occurringwhere there seems to be a higher
incidence, prevalence rates.
We're doing a better job ofcapturing those numbers.
(07:27):
You know, the way we count ismore precise in lots of ways
when the CDC collects statisticsand certainly we're much more
aware of this diagnosis.
If we would have looked at this40 years ago, we weren't
labeling things, we weren'tlabeling autism.
Many more parents are hyperaware of this because it's in
(07:48):
the media and I think lookingfor diagnosis earlier.
But we also do know thatautistic people have been with
us forever.
So, I don't think there's anydefinitive answer as to why.
I think that's why we just needto proactively deal with this
inevitable growth in thispopulation and be much more
conscious of how to beinclusive.
Dean Colvin (08:09):
Right.
And I mean, if it's close to 2%of the population, that's an
enormous number of people andsort of human talent that's
being not given a chance toflourish if we don't provide
workplaces that are accessibleand allow these individuals to
contribute?
Susanne Bruyère (08:26):
Absolutely.
I think it's really critical andwhat we're finding is when more
places open their minds to thistalent pool and make a proactive
effort to be inclusive, it seemsto be changing the culture of
the workplace as a whole.
So not only do they get talentwith unique characteristics in
many cases that contribute tothe success on specific tasks
(08:47):
and jobs that are looking forbeing filled, but also people
seem to feel good about havingan organization that is
proactively trying to be moreinclusive.
And many of them have familymembers with either autistic
characteristics or other kindsof disabilities.
And so they see this and theyare really happy to be engaged
(09:10):
in what they see as a verypositive mission in their
organization.
So it engenders loyalty andcommitment to the workforce as a
whole, which is very positive.
Dean Colvin (09:19):
Yeah, which is a powerful point.
So if I'm an organizationalleader thinking about this, I'm
not just thinking aboutsomething effecting, you know,
2% of my employees, potentiallyit's going to have a much
broader impact.
Susanne Bruyère (09:21):
Absolutely.
We know that one in fourhouseholds in the U.S.
Has a person with a disabilityin it.
So when people see organizationsreally thinking about inclusion,
(09:44):
they rally around that becausethey know someone who in their
family, they hope will have ajob in the future or they've
seen have difficulties ingetting in the workplace.
And when they see an employerthat's willing to open up to
those opportunities they want tobe in that workplace.
Dean Colvin (10:02):
You've edited a new book that's coming out by the
Labor and Employment RelationsAssociation this fall,
"Employment and DisabilityIssues, Innovations and
Opportunities." You talk aboutthe way forward.
Tell me how should all of us bethinking about the issue of
neurodiverse people and theirfuture in the workplace?
Susanne Bruyère (10:19):
There's, you know, in having this great
collection of 12 chapters byprobably something like two
dozen authors, I learned a lotand I'm looking at the common
themes across them and some ofthe things we found is the
importance of regulatoryframeworks.
There are a lot of differentemployment and disability laws
(10:40):
that impact how employers behaveand how HR professionals conduct
business.
And many of them both undergirddisability rights, which helps
this population.
But many of them were written ata time when neurodiversity and
autism were not in the dialogue.
So I think we both, theconversation reaffirmed the
(11:03):
importance of the protectionsthat these laws provide, but
also that we need to relook atit in light of contemporary
populations that now we'redealing with and previously
before we had not thought about.
And the same is true forworkplace policies and
procedures.
You know, we thought we hadinclusion figured out for people
with disabilities in 1990 whenwe passed the Americans with
(11:25):
Disabilities Act, butneurodiversity was not at all on
the table.
So we need to rethink evensomething that's a more
contemporary law like that.
It's not the 1935 SocialSecurities Act.
It's much more recent and yet weknow we're missing some
important new pieces to thinkabout like accommodating people
with neurodiversecharacteristics and what those
(11:48):
kinds of accommodations couldand should look like.
Dean Colvin (11:54):
Is this an issue that's emerging worldwide?
Do we see other countriesstruggling with the same
questions and experimenting withdifferent policies elsewhere
too?
Susanne Bruyère (12:01):
That's a terrific question.
And in the book we include twochapters on international
considerations about disabilitymore broadly.
Where the neurodiversepopulation is concerned this is
coming to us in several ways.
Many disability advocacyorganizations we know, you know,
15%, and we think that's anunderestimate of the world's
(12:23):
population, that's over 1billion people are people with
disabilities globally.
Among those disability advocacymovements we see neurodiversity
coming to the fore as well.
But also the companies who arechampioning these kinds of
initiatives in the U.S., many ofthem are multinationals,
Microsoft, SAP, JP Morgan, Chase, DXC Technologies, which is a
(12:48):
subsidiary or anotherorganization that was previously
with Hewlett Packard.
All of them are moving theseoperations into other countries.
And so they're looking for thistalent in, some of them are in
19 different countries now,Europe, Africa, India, China.
And so we are having anopportunity to explore, what
(13:12):
does this talent pool look likethere?
Are company or companies able tofind the talent?
Are the cultures and theeducational institutions giving
the opportunities to thispopulation there that will
enable them to be job ready whenthe companies reach out looking
for them?
So it is a global phenomenon.
It's a global population.
And it's a global opportunity.
Dean Colvin (13:34):
And presumably if I'm an organization that
operates globally it wouldn'tseem very consistent with my
values to say I care aboutneurodiverse employees in the
United States, but not inAustralia the same.
Susanne Bruyère (13:46):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And when families in thesecompanies hear about this in
other countries, they're saying,"why not here?" So the companies
are going to be pressed, if notby the local communities and the
populations and the disabilitymovement, certainly by their own
employees who want to have theseopportunities be global for
them.
Dean Colvin (14:06):
Excellent.
Well thank you Susanne.
It's been a real pleasuretalking to you and I think
you've given our listeners a lotto think about and a real
insights into this topic.
Susanne Bruyère (14:15):
Thanks for your interest and your time today.
Diane Burton (14:18):
Thank you for joining us for Work! Exploring
the future of work, labor andemployment.
In upcoming episodes, Dean, AlexColvin and guests will discuss
state, national andinternational perspectives on
issues shaping work, labor andemployment.
Again, thank you for listeningand learn more about ILR by
visiting us on the web at: ilr.cornell.edu. (14:39):
undefined
Work is all around us.
It defines us and the future ofwork impacts nearly every person
on our planet.
The ILR school at Cornelluniversity is at the center of
work, labor and employment,influencing policy and practice
on the most pressing issuesfacing employees and employers.
In this episode, Dean AlexColvin talks with Susanne
(00:24):
Bruyère, Director of Yang TanInstitute on Employment and
Disability, about recruiting,hiring and retaining
neurodiverse people.
Dean Colvin (00:35):
Thank you for joining us today.
Welcome Susanne.
Susanne Bruyère (00:37):
Thanks very much for having me.
Dean Colvin (00:40):
So many companies have started initiatives to
affirmatively hire neurodiversepeople, particularly those with
autistic characteristics.
What's driving this recentinterest by businesses in this
population?
Susanne Bruyère (00:52):
Well, quite definitely it's a need for
talent.
The unemployment rate is verylow.
Businesses have many jobs thatare open and they are willing to
explore populations that theyhad previously overlooked.
Many of them have become awarethat people with autistic
characteristics may have skillsand abilities that lend
(01:15):
themselves to many kinds ofjobs.
The tech sector is where theywere originally looking and
they're willing to explore whatis a largely untapped labor
pool.
Dean Colvin (01:26):
So it sounds like it's a combination of both the
economic situation but also agrowing awareness by companies.
Susanne Bruyère (01:32):
An awareness, yes, that they have overlooked
talent before because of bias,because of a lack of awareness.
And now a recognition thatpeople with all kinds of
characteristics, but in thiscase, specifically autistic
characteristics, like attentionto and ability to focus, ability
(01:53):
to see trends and patterns ofdata and other unique
characteristics that people withautism that have enabled them to
open their minds and begin toexplore how could they use these
characteristics in this talentpool, which they previously had
not been willing to look at.
Dean Colvin (02:10):
What can workplaces do to make themselves
organizationally ready torecruit and to hire neurodiverse
people?
Susanne Bruyère (02:18):
Well, you know, if you w ould h ave asked me
four or five years ago, I would've said right away y ou
look for that talent pool.
But we're realizing that toreally make a successful match
over time, it's important to getthe organization ready for
receptivity.
So, and part of that is gettingtop management to articulate
(02:40):
that this is a part of abusiness strategy.
To send the message to theworkforce that this is something
they want, that they see it as alonger term viable solution to a
need for talent and engage theworkforce in support actively.
And then, to create internalreceptivity through education of
(03:01):
supervisors and the workforcemore broadly doing some training
and readying naturally occurringresources like employee
assistance programs, labor andemployment relations
professionals, benefits, HR sothat everyone understands this
is a part of what theorganization wants to do.
(03:22):
It's a value, it's a part of themission and readies them to
support this initiative.
And then establishingrelationships with the community
organizations that can be thatconduit for qualified talent.
Dean Colvin (03:35):
So I want to follow up a little bit and you
mentioned training as being animportant part of this.
What should an organization bedoing to provide good training?
What's the content of thattrading and how do you do it
well?
Susanne Bruyère (03:47):
Well, you know, for supervisors we see it
important to again, you know,send them the message that this
is not just an add on to theirresponsibilities.
This is a part of a broaderimperative for talent to be a
competitive organization.
And how their role in that willbe critical in terms of
(04:08):
orienting the new employees,getting them duly integrated
into the team because sometimeswe see the characteristics can
commonly be for this populationto be a somewhat socially
awkward or socially removed.
So thinking, helping them to geteducated about ways to integrate
people without being overlyforceful in that integration.
(04:31):
And to be comfortable and givingperformance management and to
think about career advancementbecause this population, like
all of us wants an opportunityto grow, develop and move on to
the next generation of jobsthey're capable of.
Dean Colvin (04:45):
I was interested to read that the most recent 2018
CDC report estimates that one in59 out of all eight-year-olds
are diagnosed with autism.
Those numbers are significantlyhigher than they were less than
20 years ago when in 2000 theestimates were that one in 150
(05:05):
children in this age group wasdiagnosed with autism.
What are the implications ofthese changes for workforce
development and for employmentand also for disability public
policy going forward?
Susanne Bruyère (05:18):
Well, I think one is a very obvious is that
we're going to need to ready theworkplace and the workforce for
many more people who areneurodiverse, autism being one
of those characteristics, butother kinds of neurodiversity as
well.
This will mean that we need toprepare workforce development
(05:38):
training systems, workforcedevelopment boards that are
doing job matching for theinevitability of dealing with
people with the kinds ofdifferences that we're seeing in
the neurodiverse population.
It, you know, might be if those,these qualities that we see as
sort of superpowers somecompanies are looking for, but
there can be other things thatcan be also challenging and, you
(06:00):
know, the ability to intervieweffectively is one.
And so it means getting theseworkforce development boards and
the training initiativesequipped to be able to
proactively and effectivelytrain this population so they
can be ready for the workforceand getting workplaces to think
about how they can truly make,the interview process more
(06:23):
inclusive as well as the wholeemployment process from hiring,
orienting, retaining performancemanagement and advancement, much
more inclusive of neurodiversepeople than we have been
historically.
Dean Colvin (06:37):
When you see changes like this and numbers,
there's always that interestingquestion of what's going on.
Is this the case that we'reactually seeing a change in the
proportion of the populationwith neurodiversity?
Or is it that we're actuallymore accurately diagnosing a
neurodiversity that thepopulation was there all along
(06:58):
but we just didn't realize itwas there and we under recognize
this population and perhapsunder served them?
Susanne Bruyère (07:04):
You know, many people are asking that question
and I think the best minds inthe country and internationally
are looking at what is thisetiology.
And I think it as near as weknow now, it is a combination of
something seems to be occurringwhere there seems to be a higher
incidence, prevalence rates.
We're doing a better job ofcapturing those numbers.
(07:27):
You know, the way we count ismore precise in lots of ways
when the CDC collects statisticsand certainly we're much more
aware of this diagnosis.
If we would have looked at this40 years ago, we weren't
labeling things, we weren'tlabeling autism.
Many more parents are hyperaware of this because it's in
(07:48):
the media and I think lookingfor diagnosis earlier.
But we also do know thatautistic people have been with
us forever.
So, I don't think there's anydefinitive answer as to why.
I think that's why we just needto proactively deal with this
inevitable growth in thispopulation and be much more
conscious of how to beinclusive.
Dean Colvin (08:09):
Right.
And I mean, if it's close to 2%of the population, that's an
enormous number of people andsort of human talent that's
being not given a chance toflourish if we don't provide
workplaces that are accessibleand allow these individuals to
contribute?
Susanne Bruyère (08:26):
Absolutely.
I think it's really critical andwhat we're finding is when more
places open their minds to thistalent pool and make a proactive
effort to be inclusive, it seemsto be changing the culture of
the workplace as a whole.
So not only do they get talentwith unique characteristics in
many cases that contribute tothe success on specific tasks
(08:47):
and jobs that are looking forbeing filled, but also people
seem to feel good about havingan organization that is
proactively trying to be moreinclusive.
And many of them have familymembers with either autistic
characteristics or other kindsof disabilities.
And so they see this and theyare really happy to be engaged
(09:10):
in what they see as a verypositive mission in their
organization.
So it engenders loyalty andcommitment to the workforce as a
whole, which is very positive.
Dean Colvin (09:19):
Yeah, which is a powerful point.
So if I'm an organizationalleader thinking about this, I'm
not just thinking aboutsomething effecting, you know,
2% of my employees, potentiallyit's going to have a much
broader impact.
Susanne Bruyère (09:21):
Absolutely.
We know that one in fourhouseholds in the U.S.
Has a person with a disabilityin it.
So when people see organizationsreally thinking about inclusion,
(09:44):
they rally around that becausethey know someone who in their
family, they hope will have ajob in the future or they've
seen have difficulties ingetting in the workplace.
And when they see an employerthat's willing to open up to
those opportunities they want tobe in that workplace.
Dean Colvin (10:02):
You've edited a new book that's coming out by the
Labor and Employment RelationsAssociation this fall,
"Employment and DisabilityIssues, Innovations and
Opportunities." You talk aboutthe way forward.
Tell me how should all of us bethinking about the issue of
neurodiverse people and theirfuture in the workplace?
Susanne Bruyère (10:19):
There's, you know, in having this great
collection of 12 chapters byprobably something like two
dozen authors, I learned a lotand I'm looking at the common
themes across them and some ofthe things we found is the
importance of regulatoryframeworks.
There are a lot of differentemployment and disability laws
(10:40):
that impact how employers behaveand how HR professionals conduct
business.
And many of them both undergirddisability rights, which helps
this population.
But many of them were written ata time when neurodiversity and
autism were not in the dialogue.
So I think we both, theconversation reaffirmed the
(11:03):
importance of the protectionsthat these laws provide, but
also that we need to relook atit in light of contemporary
populations that now we'redealing with and previously
before we had not thought about.
And the same is true forworkplace policies and
procedures.
You know, we thought we hadinclusion figured out for people
with disabilities in 1990 whenwe passed the Americans with
(11:25):
Disabilities Act, butneurodiversity was not at all on
the table.
So we need to rethink evensomething that's a more
contemporary law like that.
It's not the 1935 SocialSecurities Act.
It's much more recent and yet weknow we're missing some
important new pieces to thinkabout like accommodating people
with neurodiversecharacteristics and what those
(11:48):
kinds of accommodations couldand should look like.
Dean Colvin (11:54):
Is this an issue that's emerging worldwide?
Do we see other countriesstruggling with the same
questions and experimenting withdifferent policies elsewhere
too?
Susanne Bruyère (12:01):
That's a terrific question.
And in the book we include twochapters on international
considerations about disabilitymore broadly.
Where the neurodiversepopulation is concerned this is
coming to us in several ways.
Many disability advocacyorganizations we know, you know,
15%, and we think that's anunderestimate of the world's
(12:23):
population, that's over 1billion people are people with
disabilities globally.
Among those disability advocacymovements we see neurodiversity
coming to the fore as well.
But also the companies who arechampioning these kinds of
initiatives in the U.S., many ofthem are multinationals,
Microsoft, SAP, JP Morgan, Chase, DXC Technologies, which is a
(12:48):
subsidiary or anotherorganization that was previously
with Hewlett Packard.
All of them are moving theseoperations into other countries.
And so they're looking for thistalent in, some of them are in
19 different countries now,Europe, Africa, India, China.
And so we are having anopportunity to explore, what
(13:12):
does this talent pool look likethere?
Are company or companies able tofind the talent?
Are the cultures and theeducational institutions giving
the opportunities to thispopulation there that will
enable them to be job ready whenthe companies reach out looking
for them?
So it is a global phenomenon.
It's a global population.
And it's a global opportunity.
Dean Colvin (13:34):
And presumably if I'm an organization that
operates globally it wouldn'tseem very consistent with my
values to say I care aboutneurodiverse employees in the
United States, but not inAustralia the same.
Susanne Bruyère (13:46):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And when families in thesecompanies hear about this in
other countries, they're saying,"why not here?" So the companies
are going to be pressed, if notby the local communities and the
populations and the disabilitymovement, certainly by their own
employees who want to have theseopportunities be global for
them.
Dean Colvin (14:06):
Excellent.
Well thank you Susanne.
It's been a real pleasuretalking to you and I think
you've given our listeners a lotto think about and a real
insights into this topic.
Susanne Bruyère (14:15):
Thanks for your interest and your time today.
Diane Burton (14:18):
Thank you for joining us for Work! Exploring
the future of work, labor andemployment.
In upcoming episodes, Dean, AlexColvin and guests will discuss
state, national andinternational perspectives on
issues shaping work, labor andemployment.
Again, thank you for listeningand learn more about ILR by
visiting us on the web at: ilr.cornell.edu. (14:39):
undefined
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