January 10, 2020 • 32 mins
Over the past decade, the city of Buffalo has seen impressive growth, development and progress. Dean Alex Colvin and New York State Assemblyman Sean Ryan discuss the policy changes, and the ILR School’s role, in revitalizing the region.
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Diane Burton (00:00):
Work is all around us.
It defines us and the future ofwork impacts nearly every person
on our planet.
The ILR school at Cornelluniversity is at the center of
work, labor and employment,influencing policy and practice
on the most pressing issuesfacing employees and employers.
ILR school Dean Alex Colvin isthe host of our series"Work!
(00:25):
Exploring the future of work,labor and employment," featuring
discussion with experts on keyworld of work topics.
In this episode, New York Stateassemblyman, Sean Ryan and Dean
Colvin discuss the future ofwork in Buffalo.
Dean Colvin (00:41):
It strikes me that Buffalo is a place, you know,
you see that enormous sweep ofkind of American economic
history, right?
You know, when I've, when I gothere, you know, I think back
to, you know, when the ErieCanal, you know, came in and
that kind of, you know, boom,the 19th century.
And you know, I was just lookingat a table of the 10 biggest
American cities decade bydecade, and there was a period
(01:04):
when Buffalo was in there, rightwhen Buffalo was the 10 biggest
American cities and you know,sort of really booming through
the 20th century.
But then, you know, then got,then got hit, hit hard with the,
you know, the shifts thathappened in manufacturing and
the decline there.
You know, posing these hugeproblems for the community.
(01:27):
Uh, you know, when you thinkabout, you know, your own time
and in Buffalo, you know, how doyou think about the changes that
you've seen there?
And what's going on?
Sean Ryan (01:38):
Some of the changes are, are really unbelievable.
You sometimes you don't realizethe economic doldrums you're in
until they lift.
And then you see, uh, just, youknow, how things are so much, uh
, so much better.
So, you know, we had a period ofprobably 20 years where our
(01:58):
housing value didn't evenincrease with inflation and we
just took that as the norm thatyour$80,000 house, uh, you know,
maybe in 20 years it'd be worth$90,000.
That was the norm.
But now we're, we're starting tosee, you know, real escalation
of, of housing price.
Still hasn't anywhere nearcaught up to, uh, the, the
(02:21):
increases we didn't have.
So the next to other Americancities we're still very, very
affordable.
Uh, but for us it seems likethat's like a really big
increase.
That's just one indicator.
Dean Colvin (02:34):
Yeah.
You know, and underneath thatthere's obviously always like
the economic changes thatunderlying it.
You know, one thing that struckme, I was when I was up in
Buffalo a few months back goingaround the city, my, my
mother-in-law spent herchildhood in Buffalo cause her
dad worked for Cargill.
And so, you know, I've alwaysheard these stories about, you
(02:57):
know, the Cargill facilitiesthere.
As we're going around the cityyou saw, I saw these old, you
know, elevators that withCargill on the side of them, but
they're just ruined now.
Right?
They're kind of abandoned.
And so you get that kind of, youknow, that economic dislocation,
right, that underlies, you know,why your house value hasn't gone
(03:17):
up.
Sean Ryan (03:19):
It's all, it's all tied in together.
So, you know, we had this, youknow, 1950s and early 60s, the
Buffalo economy appeared to be abulletproof economy.
You know, often people thoughtof it as an envious economy.
Uh, but we didn't realize howover reliant we were on the
(03:39):
industrial sector.
So we had a very broad baseindustrial sector, which
appeared safe.
Uh, but little did we know thatthe entire industrial economy in
America was going to change.
And that's everything fromshipping to grain production to
chemicals, automobiles, steel,you know, all those components
(04:03):
we had in Buffalo and they allsubstantially shrunk in a pretty
short period of time.
And that just had a tremendousripple effect.
Dean Colvin (04:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's striking,
right?
This is kind of, you know, amicrocosm of the American story
of kind of economic growth andthen dislocation.
Right?
So, you know, you saw, you sawthat kind of heyday that the
American economy in the 50s and60s, when, you know, things
were, things were really strong,right?
(04:33):
And then that massivedislocation that happened 70s,
80s, 90s on, right.
So that, you know, when you lookaround today, right, it's, it's
you know, you can't understandthe current situation without
knowing that kind of history ofhistory of what happened.
Sean Ryan (04:50):
In some ways, you know, we are the beneficiary of
historic luck.
So in 1825, we were in the rightgeographic place for the Erie
Canal.
But when the 50s and 60s rolledaround, we, you know, we
consider ourselves bad luck, butit was often, you know,
intentional governmental policy.
So our grain industrydisappeared with the opening of
(05:14):
the St.
Lawrence Seaway system.
All right, so it made the Eriecanal, uh, redundant.
Uh, but then there was no planever for, well, how are we going
to restore the economy that wejust hurt?
And then, you know, even withour steel and auto industry, you
know, there was several tradepacts that, that weren't really
that helpful to places likeBuffalo before NAFTA.
(05:39):
It was programs called themaquiladora programs where we
had factories that employ justshy of a thousand people, you
know, picked up the entirefactory, and moved it to the
Mexican side of theTexas-Mexican border.
But those were, those wereintentional trade policies
designed to generate overalleconomic growth, but it really
(06:02):
had a severe impact on areas ofthe country that still haven't
recovered.
Dean Colvin (06:08):
Yeah, it's always interesting when we talk about
it here in the academic settingof like a place like Cornell,
right?
Our economists will talk aboutthe theory on trade.
And the theory on trade is thatit'll, it'll produce more gains
overall.
Right?
But there's also always t hestory that, you know, we know
that there's going to be winnersand losers, right?
(06:29):
Some sectors and locales aregoing to be hit worse and the c
ountry i s going to be richeroff.
But, then the ec onomists always so rt o f w ave hands at
the end and say, you know butthe, the winners can compensate
the losers.
Right?
That's always ki nd o f t heanswer at the end.
Right?
And it seems that's where youget that tension between kind of
(06:50):
the academic idea of thishappening and then you know,
your world.
And the policy and the politicsof, well, how do you actually do
that?
Right?
How do yo u, you know, or evenare you go ing t o d o that?
Right?
You know, you pass the tradepact, but then you don't provide
whatever adjustment or supportthat's going to make sure that,
you know, overall everybody's going t o c ome out better.
Sean Ryan (07:12):
You're right.
In Buffalo, you know, we talk,about NAFTA you know, we still
say, you know, we, we like NAFTAif it had labor protection and
environmental protection.
So, you know, how does a Buffaloplant compare, you know, compete
with a, another locality thathappens to be a different
(07:33):
country that offers no workforceprotections and also has no
environmental regulationsattached to?
It doesn't create that equaleconomic playing field.
Dean Colvin (07:46):
Yeah.
And then I, you know, I thinkthe other, um, you know, part of
that is then what's the strategyfor making sure that, you know,
you have jobs in Buffalo aswell, right.
Good jobs.
Sean Ryan (07:58):
Yeah.
And that's really where, youknow, Cornell and the ILR school
had been particularly helpful to, you know, to upstate cities.
Especially Buffalo trying tohelp us forge a path forward in
this economy.
Dean Colvin (08:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's one of those
tough tasks, right?
That we've got to figure outwhere exactly it is that the
potential is for new jobs andhow to make those good jobs,
right?
I mean, that's, that's alwaysone of the tough questions is
you can say, you know, we'llcreate jobs and if you look at
the list of, growing jobsprojections, right, they tend to
(08:35):
be a lot in the healthcareindustry.
You know, projections, our, youknow, aging population.
We know we have healthcareneeds, but a lot of the growing
ones are home healthcare aidesand nursing assistance and jobs
that tend to be, you know, theleast compensated amongst the
health jobs and poor jobqualities.
Right?
So it seems like, you know,we've got to both figure out,
(08:55):
you know, where we can get morejobs and make sure those are
actually good jobs too.
Sean Ryan (08:56):
And that that's always the challenge, right?
So, the U.S.
economy is really good atproducing jobs, uh,
unfortunately, more and more ofthose jobs are in the retail
sector and those, that sector isa sector that's been
traditionally non-unionized.
(09:18):
So there's been no wagepressure.
Um, so it's a whole sector ofthe economy that we've sort of
written off as a, as a low wage,uh, job, you know, forever.
You know one of the fastestgrowing parts of the economy for
women in the workforce is, ispharmaceutical clerks.
And that sounds like a prettygood job.
(09:40):
But in reality it's somebodystocking shelves at a, at a, in
a Rite Aid in the pharmacysection.
And that job generally pays, youknow, hovers, you know, 10%
above, above minimum wage.
Aren't really the types of jobsthat we've, you know, we were
looking for.
But I guess we also have toremind ourselves a lot of how do
(10:01):
jobs become high wage jobs inAmerica in often they become
high wage jobs because they havecollective bargaining
agreements.
You know, the steel companiesdidn't come to Buffalo to
provide high wage jobs.
They came to Buffalo because wehad a, uh, a low wage immigrant
(10:22):
workforce that, you know, theythought they could get a lot of
work out of for very littlemoney.
It was only through educatingand bargaining that we were able
to make those jobs into highwage jobs.
And, you know, I wonder, youknow, how much power is in the
economy that's never realizedbecause there's just not a lot
(10:42):
of pressure to raise wages.
So many parts of our economy.
Dean Colvin (10:47):
Yeah.
One of the things that's beenreally a surprise to me to be
honest in the last few years ishow the conversation around
wages has come alive again.
It seemed like we'd kind offorgotten wages as an issue for
quite a while.
And now, you know, you see, youknow, political candidates
supporting sectorial bargaining,right?
(11:08):
The idea that maybe, you know,we could have an industry wide
bargaining.
You know, we saw the minimumwage, the Fight for 15 campaign
succeed, you know, far beyondwhat I'd expected.
Right.
You know, I mean, that was sortof an example where it was
almost the practice got ahead ofthe theory, right?
I mean, we knew the researchshowed that this should be okay,
shouldn't have the negativeeffect on jobs, but I didn't, I
(11:29):
didn't think it was going to bepolitically feasible.
I mean this was, this was a bigsurprise to me.
Sean Ryan (11:34):
Yeah, it was.
It was a real surprise to, youknow, as a member of the
legislature when we wereactually able to push that
through it and put it together,we quickly went from, you know,
rhetoric to practice.
But you know, we've done a lotin Western New York to try to,
you know, to improve theeconomic conditions, but that
increase in the minimum wage,which, you know, in Buffalo it
(11:55):
tops off not at 15 but at 12,you know, that put like 25% more
wages on people's tables.
It really had an incredibleimpact in terms of, you know,
reducing poverty and then alsothe working poor, you know,
suddenly you are able to affordto put a roof on your house.
(12:16):
So, you know, these are the samejobs, but we essentially
mandated that they pay about 25%more and, you know, we held our
breath, but all the data isshowing that we not only didn't
lose jobs, but we actuallygained jobs.
Dean Colvin (12:33):
Yeah, and I mean, one of the things I found really
interesting is that it seemslike it has a knock-on effect so
that you know, people above theminimum wage point, right, and,
uh, you know, unions with theircontracts can then actually
negotiate more because there's ahigher floor.
So they're not having to competewith that real rock bottom low
wage type of business model.
Sean Ryan (12:54):
I think you're, I think you're absolutely right.
You bring that, that floor up,and then other companies have to
respond to stay competitive.
And it also, you know, Isubscribe to that theory of the
increase in minimum w age i s,you know, it's fast money into
the economy.
That money doesn't go toinvestment funds.
It doesn't go to longtermstrategies.
(13:16):
It goes right back out onto thestreet, into the cash boxes of
local stores and restaurants,and retail establishments.
It seems to be having a prettypositive effect.
Dean Colvin (13:30):
Yeah, no, it's really great to see that and,
you know, I think it opens uppossibilities to think about,
you know, more policies likethis that can have that real
economic development impact.
But you know, one of the thingsthat's been interesting in the
work we've been doing,particularly in Western New
York, is this attempt to map outwhere it is that you can see
(13:54):
potentials for really increasingjob numbers.
We've got some work we're doingaround like in the healthcare
industry trying to figure out,you know, where we can get more
access to employment.
And particularly, you know,there's a lot of groups that
haven't had really good accessto jobs in the past.
You think of people withdisabilities, which you know, is
a huge, a huge issue.
(14:16):
A criminal record, you know,cutting people off from jobs,
right?
When we know that the best wayto prevent somebody committing a
crime again is to get them ajob, right?
You know, and trying to figureout the spots where you can get
that access.
Sean Ryan (14:31):
You'll see as the, as the workforce is tightening,
companies aren't objecting tothe Ban t he Box of not being
able to ask about, yo u k n ow,criminal behavior in the past.
Companies are starting to dropsome of th eir, their drug
tests.
You know, an d t hen frankly,you know, there are companies
(14:53):
that probably didn't have thebest track records wi th, with
hiring people of color ar e suddenly, you know, recruiting in
neighborhoods of color to try and b ring people into the
workforce.
So it turns out a strong economyreally, really does lift all
boats at the same time.
I think we're seeing that.
Dean Colvin (15:11):
Yeah.
You know, I think it opens upreally new possibilities.
You know, I was thinking aboutone of the projects we're doing
at ILR where we're looking atcriminal records effects and
we've got people going intoprisons looking at, and working
with, incarcerated individualswho are about to be released and
doing education about jobs.
(15:31):
And, there's even a job fairthat we've run in one of the
facilities to try and connectpeople with jobs.
Right?
And that's, that's a sort ofagenda that I think, you know,
we wouldn't have been focused on10 or 20 years ago and I don't
think was on the public policyagenda.
The Ban the Box is somethingthat's really picked up in just
the last few years.
Which is a hopeful thing, right?
(15:53):
It's, it's nice to see wherepublic policy can make a
difference in people's lives.
Sean Ryan (15:59):
We are going to be an optimistic that with good policy
, public policy, we can havepositive impacts on people's
lives and the economy at thesame time.
You know, for far to often itwas sort of, it was sold as
this, you can have good publicpolicy, but it's gonna hurt your
economy in the long run.
What we're seeing a lot of thesepolicies, you have what you
(16:21):
called the, you know, theknock-on effect of raising wages
or the fast money from a minimumwage increases and, you know,
banning the box, they're allthings that are good for the
economy.
Dean Colvin (16:33):
Yeah.
And it's interesting, I think,you know, in terms of the
regional impact that thesethings have, you know, up here
in upstate New York, right,we're in a region that, you
know, had this great economichistory, but in recent years,
you know, we've had some, sometough times and I think there's,
there's sometimes been atendency to be, you know,
despondent about thepossibilities, right.
(16:54):
To think that, you know, thingscan, things can't turn around
right.
That, it will make a difference.
Right.
Uh, what we do,
Sean Ryan (17:04):
And we also, I think too, we've become a little fear
based.
So, you know, there was a lot oftrepidation about increasing the
minimum wage for fear of what itcould do to our, to our economy.
So we're seeing the, thesegrowths on most of our economic
sectors, while we still lagbehind the national average in
(17:25):
most of them, it's better thanwe've done in 20 years.
But I would say that what westill don't fully trust it.
We need some more good years ofgood economy before we become
accustomed to this as the norm.
You know, we still are a littlewary and we think, you know,
perhaps the rug could be pulledout at any second.
(17:46):
So we keep our fingers crossedand you know we whistle when we
go by grave yards.
Dean Colvin (17:52):
That's right.
You know, there's, you know, wesee it academically.
There's a lag in the positiveeffects as kind of things pick
up, right?
People take a while to beconvinced that things are moving
in a positive direction.
But you know, I think we'restarting to see those kind of
some optimism around that.
And, you know, and I think thatpotential for policy
(18:14):
interventions and thinking abouta real kind of good longterm
strategy seems to be there now.
Sean Ryan (18:20):
I think it is, you know, you referenced the
healthcare economy before, so,you know, we were trying to grow
the healthcare economy.
But we were seeing there is atwo tiered economy in healthcare
.
So if you're in a hospital, youusually get a good wage.
If you're with an insurancecompany that does health
benefits, you get a good wage.
(18:40):
But if you're providing anythingaround home health care, that's
often a low wage part of thehealth economy.
So you have people doing verysimilar jobs, in a hospital or
in a home setting.
But the people in the homesetting often get paid
substantially less money, eventhough it's cheaper, usually on
(19:02):
the system to keep people inhomes as long as possible.
But, you know, we'd have to lookat policies to make sure that
we're able to keep the wages ofpeople who provide in-home care,
you know, to keep it highbecause, you know, low wages,
we've figured out a really badfor our economy.
Dean Colvin (19:21):
Yeah and I think this is where some of the most
interesting experiments withunions and collective bargaining
have emerged.
Right?
If you look across the country,the increasing numbers of home
healthcare workers who haveunion representation has been a
real transformational effect.
I mean some of the biggestordinances, successes of being
(19:42):
in that industry.
Sean Ryan (19:44):
Yeah.
It's fascinating.
And, you don't have to go backtoo far to look at, you know,
just nurses in hospitals.
So up until the 80s, most ofthose nurses in hospital
settings were not unionized.
You know, they're all unionizednow.
And undoubtedly all the nurseswages have come up.
But also the health careoutcomes have come up at the
(20:05):
same time.
So once again, we were able toget this social policy of higher
wages for nurses simultaneously,increasing the healthcare
outcomes at the same time.
So we have to get out of thisthinking that it's sort of a
zero sum gains on these things.
We can have real gains.
Dean Colvin (20:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you think about, youknow, you know who's going to be
looking after your parent oryourself and you know, in the
future and, you know, do youwant that person to be, you
know, paid decently, have, youknow, decent shift times and be
able to kind of live a goodmiddle-class kind of life.
You know, you think thatperson's going to be much more
able to give you better care inthat situation or your loved
(20:48):
one.
Sean Ryan (20:49):
Yeah, I, I agree.
People who are suffering undereconomic insecurity often don't
have the bandwidth then, youknow, to go in, you know, you
know, provide care, you know,too many, too many other worries
going on.
So, you know, we would like themto have some of their worries
lifted and I think we havebetter outcomes on that.
Dean Colvin (21:09):
Yeah.
Another thing that has been areal success from our standpoint
here at the ILR School inrelation to Buffalo is that
we've got this High Roadsprogram that brings Cornell
students to Buffalo working withcommunity organizations and
trying to make an impact in thelocal community that way.
(21:34):
You know, and, and we're hopingthat that's something that is
valuable for the local communityin Buffalo.
Sean Ryan (21:43):
Yeah.
I mean, it certainly has.
ILR has been in Buffalo since,right after World War II and
what they've been able to bringto Buffalo lately is just really
this an outsider's view ofoptimism, but also, you know,
reaffirming the outsider's viewthat, you know, Buffalo is a
great place.
(22:04):
Yeah.
So with these High Road fellows,those were able to bring these
students in, you know, toexperience a 360 view of Buffalo
, use their good skillset in theworkforce.
But I view them all asambassadors, who, you know,
enjoy their time in Buffalo,will go on to do other things in
(22:24):
other parts of the country, butthey'll spread the gospel of
Buffalo being a really a goodplace, often exceeding their
expectations at all fronts.
Dean Colvin (22:35):
Yeah.
That's something I've reallyheard from the students.
So you get some of the studentswho you know, are from the
region and know it, but the, thereally interesting ones are the
ones who, you know, might'vegrown up down in New York city,
you know, never really got toknow this part of the state at
all.
And they get up to Buffalo andit opens their eyes.
It really is a different kind ofexperience.
(22:58):
You know, we, we talk about, youknow, a period of kind of where,
you know, the country is morefractured than it's been in the
past and, and that idea of kindof getting our students out to,
to see, you know, another partof the country I think is
transformative.
Sean Ryan (23:16):
I think it's invaluable.
And they really do get acomplete view of Buffalo.
I mean, they go to workplaces,they visit people in their homes
and they realize that, holy cow,this is a city with median
housing price is about$150, 000.
Our commute time is about 15minutes on average.
(23:36):
We have world class art museums.
We have the Buffalo Bills.
We have the Buffalo sabers,University of Buffalo, and you k
now, t hey, get to see it all.
But I think, you know, aroundAmerica th ere's m any more
cities like Buffalo then thereare cities like New York city,
(23:56):
you know, and Los Angeles.
So, you know, this is the economy's t hat we're trying to
improve and we're representativeof similar economies all across
America that we're trying tofigure out solutions for.
Dean Colvin (24:12):
Yeah, yeah.
It's really a great learningexperience, right?
To see that sort of practicalthing of how the real economy
works.
Um, and you know, what it meansin terms of local communities.
I think that the housing pricething is one of those great kind
of contrast.
Right.
You know, you, you're talkingabout the kind of housing costs
that would get you maybe like a,a closet in New York city to
(24:34):
live in.
You know, that really opens theeyes.
Sean Ryan (24:41):
From an architectural perspective, you know, the
unintended consequence of havingeconomic doldrums, you know,
from the 50s to recently was wedidn't have a lot of large scale
demolitions of our historicstructures.
So throughout downtown we have,you know, beautiful buildings
that in other economies probablywould have been removed.
(25:02):
You know, we have neighborhoodafter neighborhood of houses
built between 1900 in 1920.
It looks picture perfect.
And you go inside, the housesand they were built with such a
high, high level ofcraftsmanship from that period
of time.
And you know, using, you know,wood that you can't really even
get anymore.
(25:22):
I t's, it's really a, a, it'smind boggling to walk in some of
these Buffalo houses andbuildings that you have to think
that, you know, we still have itand it's achievable and to
people of more modest means.
Dean Colvin (25:34):
Yeah.
And it's amazing to see how,what potential there is for, as
the economy picks up and as thecommunity's being renewed, uh,
you know, how you can build onthat infrastructure.
I mean, I think at that, when Igo to our ILR office in Buffalo,
which is in this beautiful old,like 1890, 1900 building and
it's got that beautiful oldskeleton to it, but then you go
(25:56):
into the offices where they'verenovated and it's this
beautiful modern, open officewithin this amazing historical
building.
And, you know, and I think, youknow, across that kind of, you
know, a community skeleton ofinfrastructure for the, the old
buildings there, there'senormous potential, for, for
(26:17):
kind of renovation and newbuilding.
Sean Ryan (26:19):
There is, you know, we, we recognize that as a
strength.
You know, people want stuffthat's tangible and you know,
they call it real, you know,this is, this is real stuff and
there's generations attached toit.
We try to catalyze that in NewYork state by the historic tax
credit.
The federal government has ahistoric tax credit.
(26:40):
And then we match the federalgovernment's with a separate New
York state tax credit and that'sdone wonders are redoing our old
buildings.
And we brought our rate down tothe neighborhood level, so that
if you're in a historic districtthat, you know, putting a roof
on your house qualifies you fora New York state historic tax
credit.
(27:01):
So it's gone from doingwonderful big buildings like the
Market Arcade that you werereferring to, the Lafayette
Hotel or just houses throughoutneighborhoods that really help
to catalyze investments and helpto defray some of the costs
associated with, you know,working on, you know, centuries
old buildings.
Dean Colvin (27:22):
Yeah.
I think it's a great example of,of how public policy makes a
difference, right?
And, and in areas that aren'tthe sort of sexiest areas of
public policy, right?
Zoning policy, right, isn't the,the sexiest issue, but it's one
that affects people where theylive.
It affects communities, thelandscape that we move through,
and, and has these, theseprofound effects of the local
(27:44):
economy and people's people'slived lives.
Sean Ryan (27:46):
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's wonderfulwhen you can put policies in to
effect that, you know, you couldsee it coming out, whether it's
the historic tax credit, thechanges in the minimum minimum
wage, the Brownfield taxcredits, all, you know, all
these policies, you know, havean impact.
And you know, there is always anelement of risk when you put
(28:07):
together a public policy.
I mean, you rely on, academicsand folks who like are at the
ILR School that tell you wethink you're on the right track
here, right?
Then we put them into place andthere's real life consequences
of that.
And you know, more often thannot, it's my opinion that we get
it right.
But we, I think we need to bebolder as we move forward as we
(28:31):
think of lifting the economiesof the rest of the state.
You know, let's face it, theonly truly healthy city in all
of New York state is New Yorkcity.
The Buffalos, the Rochesters,the Syracuse, Albany, Utica,
Binghamton, Elmira.
They're all under tremendousstrain.
So we need to look at thedifferent regions of our state,
(28:54):
but also come up with policiesthat are designed to
intentionally kickstart oururban areas.
Dean Colvin (29:01):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, in ourside is the kind of university's
perspective on it.
You know, we can come up withthe ideas but we don't know how
they'll actually work until youguys put them into practice.
And we can take a look at thosepolicies and see, Hey, you know,
yeah, this worked, that didn't,let's refine it a little bit.
Here's some new ideas and wekeep moving forward.
(29:24):
But you've got to have the boldpolicies.
You got to try them out to seeif they're going to work.
Sean Ryan (29:27):
Yeah, I mean the work of the ILR school in Buffalo in
the last 20 years, you folks dida report called Champions of
Work and updated that report.
And it all talked about, youknow, the different types of
jobs in our economy in how didyou have jobs in their impact
differ based on their wage andbenefit packages.
(29:50):
So that really opened our eyesto this idea of we need to focus
more on jobs that have thepotential to pay a higher salary
rate.
And that's the jobs we should befocusing on.
And I believe your school coinedthe tag of"high road economic
development policies." But withthe high road policy, you'll
(30:13):
look at, you know, the job all,you know, all the way through.
So we're going to subsidize acompany that company's going to
come in.
We look at the environmentalimpacts of that, and then we
look at the workforce, thedevelopment that'll need.
But then, you know, the type ofjob that'll be created, the pay
and how long we think it'll lastin the economy.
(30:33):
So it really helps us change theway we think of things.
Dean Colvin (30:37):
Yeah, no, that's really great.
I mean, I think that's, that'sthe core of our kind of mission
as the ILR school is that we'retrying to come up with ideas
that can be used in practice,that really have impact
improving people's lives andreally helping communities.
You know, we are the, uh, NewYork State School of Industrial
and Labor Relations where theland grant university for New
(30:57):
York state.
And so it's important that we dothings that will have impact on
the state and improve the livesof New York Staters.
Sean Ryan (31:05):
Well, I think you're, I think you're, you're doing a
good job and it's certainlyhaving a, a positive impact in
the city of Buffalo.
Dean Colvin (31:13):
Well thanks.
And you know, it's really goodhaving great partners in the
Buffalo area.
You know, we really appreciatethat and being able to work with
the leaders of the Buffalocommunity to, to have that
positive impact in the localarea.
Sean Ryan (31:25):
Thanks so much.
Dean Colvin (31:26):
Great.
Thank you.
Diane Burton (31:29):
Thank you for joining us for"Work! Exploring
the future of work, labor andemployment." In our next
episode, Dean Colvin talks withauthor Jon Gordon about
leadership in the workplace.
Again, thank you for listeningand learn more about ILR by
visiting us on the web atilr.cornell.
(31:49):
edu.
Work is all around us.
It defines us and the future ofwork impacts nearly every person
on our planet.
The ILR school at Cornelluniversity is at the center of
work, labor and employment,influencing policy and practice
on the most pressing issuesfacing employees and employers.
ILR school Dean Alex Colvin isthe host of our series"Work!
(00:25):
Exploring the future of work,labor and employment," featuring
discussion with experts on keyworld of work topics.
In this episode, New York Stateassemblyman, Sean Ryan and Dean
Colvin discuss the future ofwork in Buffalo.
Dean Colvin (00:41):
It strikes me that Buffalo is a place, you know,
you see that enormous sweep ofkind of American economic
history, right?
You know, when I've, when I gothere, you know, I think back
to, you know, when the ErieCanal, you know, came in and
that kind of, you know, boom,the 19th century.
And you know, I was just lookingat a table of the 10 biggest
American cities decade bydecade, and there was a period
(01:04):
when Buffalo was in there, rightwhen Buffalo was the 10 biggest
American cities and you know,sort of really booming through
the 20th century.
But then, you know, then got,then got hit, hit hard with the,
you know, the shifts thathappened in manufacturing and
the decline there.
You know, posing these hugeproblems for the community.
(01:27):
Uh, you know, when you thinkabout, you know, your own time
and in Buffalo, you know, how doyou think about the changes that
you've seen there?
And what's going on?
Sean Ryan (01:38):
Some of the changes are, are really unbelievable.
You sometimes you don't realizethe economic doldrums you're in
until they lift.
And then you see, uh, just, youknow, how things are so much, uh
, so much better.
So, you know, we had a period ofprobably 20 years where our
(01:58):
housing value didn't evenincrease with inflation and we
just took that as the norm thatyour$80,000 house, uh, you know,
maybe in 20 years it'd be worth$90,000.
That was the norm.
But now we're, we're starting tosee, you know, real escalation
of, of housing price.
Still hasn't anywhere nearcaught up to, uh, the, the
(02:21):
increases we didn't have.
So the next to other Americancities we're still very, very
affordable.
Uh, but for us it seems likethat's like a really big
increase.
That's just one indicator.
Dean Colvin (02:34):
Yeah.
You know, and underneath thatthere's obviously always like
the economic changes thatunderlying it.
You know, one thing that struckme, I was when I was up in
Buffalo a few months back goingaround the city, my, my
mother-in-law spent herchildhood in Buffalo cause her
dad worked for Cargill.
And so, you know, I've alwaysheard these stories about, you
(02:57):
know, the Cargill facilitiesthere.
As we're going around the cityyou saw, I saw these old, you
know, elevators that withCargill on the side of them, but
they're just ruined now.
Right?
They're kind of abandoned.
And so you get that kind of, youknow, that economic dislocation,
right, that underlies, you know,why your house value hasn't gone
(03:17):
up.
Sean Ryan (03:19):
It's all, it's all tied in together.
So, you know, we had this, youknow, 1950s and early 60s, the
Buffalo economy appeared to be abulletproof economy.
You know, often people thoughtof it as an envious economy.
Uh, but we didn't realize howover reliant we were on the
(03:39):
industrial sector.
So we had a very broad baseindustrial sector, which
appeared safe.
Uh, but little did we know thatthe entire industrial economy in
America was going to change.
And that's everything fromshipping to grain production to
chemicals, automobiles, steel,you know, all those components
(04:03):
we had in Buffalo and they allsubstantially shrunk in a pretty
short period of time.
And that just had a tremendousripple effect.
Dean Colvin (04:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's striking,
right?
This is kind of, you know, amicrocosm of the American story
of kind of economic growth andthen dislocation.
Right?
So, you know, you saw, you sawthat kind of heyday that the
American economy in the 50s and60s, when, you know, things
were, things were really strong,right?
(04:33):
And then that massivedislocation that happened 70s,
80s, 90s on, right.
So that, you know, when you lookaround today, right, it's, it's
you know, you can't understandthe current situation without
knowing that kind of history ofhistory of what happened.
Sean Ryan (04:50):
In some ways, you know, we are the beneficiary of
historic luck.
So in 1825, we were in the rightgeographic place for the Erie
Canal.
But when the 50s and 60s rolledaround, we, you know, we
consider ourselves bad luck, butit was often, you know,
intentional governmental policy.
So our grain industrydisappeared with the opening of
(05:14):
the St.
Lawrence Seaway system.
All right, so it made the Eriecanal, uh, redundant.
Uh, but then there was no planever for, well, how are we going
to restore the economy that wejust hurt?
And then, you know, even withour steel and auto industry, you
know, there was several tradepacts that, that weren't really
that helpful to places likeBuffalo before NAFTA.
(05:39):
It was programs called themaquiladora programs where we
had factories that employ justshy of a thousand people, you
know, picked up the entirefactory, and moved it to the
Mexican side of theTexas-Mexican border.
But those were, those wereintentional trade policies
designed to generate overalleconomic growth, but it really
(06:02):
had a severe impact on areas ofthe country that still haven't
recovered.
Dean Colvin (06:08):
Yeah, it's always interesting when we talk about
it here in the academic settingof like a place like Cornell,
right?
Our economists will talk aboutthe theory on trade.
And the theory on trade is thatit'll, it'll produce more gains
overall.
Right?
But there's also always t hestory that, you know, we know
that there's going to be winnersand losers, right?
(06:29):
Some sectors and locales aregoing to be hit worse and the c
ountry i s going to be richeroff.
But, then the ec onomists always so rt o f w ave hands at
the end and say, you know butthe, the winners can compensate
the losers.
Right?
That's always ki nd o f t heanswer at the end.
Right?
And it seems that's where youget that tension between kind of
(06:50):
the academic idea of thishappening and then you know,
your world.
And the policy and the politicsof, well, how do you actually do
that?
Right?
How do yo u, you know, or evenare you go ing t o d o that?
Right?
You know, you pass the tradepact, but then you don't provide
whatever adjustment or supportthat's going to make sure that,
you know, overall everybody's going t o c ome out better.
Sean Ryan (07:12):
You're right.
In Buffalo, you know, we talk,about NAFTA you know, we still
say, you know, we, we like NAFTAif it had labor protection and
environmental protection.
So, you know, how does a Buffaloplant compare, you know, compete
with a, another locality thathappens to be a different
(07:33):
country that offers no workforceprotections and also has no
environmental regulationsattached to?
It doesn't create that equaleconomic playing field.
Dean Colvin (07:46):
Yeah.
And then I, you know, I thinkthe other, um, you know, part of
that is then what's the strategyfor making sure that, you know,
you have jobs in Buffalo aswell, right.
Good jobs.
Sean Ryan (07:58):
Yeah.
And that's really where, youknow, Cornell and the ILR school
had been particularly helpful to, you know, to upstate cities.
Especially Buffalo trying tohelp us forge a path forward in
this economy.
Dean Colvin (08:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's one of those
tough tasks, right?
That we've got to figure outwhere exactly it is that the
potential is for new jobs andhow to make those good jobs,
right?
I mean, that's, that's alwaysone of the tough questions is
you can say, you know, we'llcreate jobs and if you look at
the list of, growing jobsprojections, right, they tend to
(08:35):
be a lot in the healthcareindustry.
You know, projections, our, youknow, aging population.
We know we have healthcareneeds, but a lot of the growing
ones are home healthcare aidesand nursing assistance and jobs
that tend to be, you know, theleast compensated amongst the
health jobs and poor jobqualities.
Right?
So it seems like, you know,we've got to both figure out,
(08:55):
you know, where we can get morejobs and make sure those are
actually good jobs too.
Sean Ryan (08:56):
And that that's always the challenge, right?
So, the U.S.
economy is really good atproducing jobs, uh,
unfortunately, more and more ofthose jobs are in the retail
sector and those, that sector isa sector that's been
traditionally non-unionized.
(09:18):
So there's been no wagepressure.
Um, so it's a whole sector ofthe economy that we've sort of
written off as a, as a low wage,uh, job, you know, forever.
You know one of the fastestgrowing parts of the economy for
women in the workforce is, ispharmaceutical clerks.
And that sounds like a prettygood job.
(09:40):
But in reality it's somebodystocking shelves at a, at a, in
a Rite Aid in the pharmacysection.
And that job generally pays, youknow, hovers, you know, 10%
above, above minimum wage.
Aren't really the types of jobsthat we've, you know, we were
looking for.
But I guess we also have toremind ourselves a lot of how do
(10:01):
jobs become high wage jobs inAmerica in often they become
high wage jobs because they havecollective bargaining
agreements.
You know, the steel companiesdidn't come to Buffalo to
provide high wage jobs.
They came to Buffalo because wehad a, uh, a low wage immigrant
(10:22):
workforce that, you know, theythought they could get a lot of
work out of for very littlemoney.
It was only through educatingand bargaining that we were able
to make those jobs into highwage jobs.
And, you know, I wonder, youknow, how much power is in the
economy that's never realizedbecause there's just not a lot
(10:42):
of pressure to raise wages.
So many parts of our economy.
Dean Colvin (10:47):
Yeah.
One of the things that's beenreally a surprise to me to be
honest in the last few years ishow the conversation around
wages has come alive again.
It seemed like we'd kind offorgotten wages as an issue for
quite a while.
And now, you know, you see, youknow, political candidates
supporting sectorial bargaining,right?
(11:08):
The idea that maybe, you know,we could have an industry wide
bargaining.
You know, we saw the minimumwage, the Fight for 15 campaign
succeed, you know, far beyondwhat I'd expected.
Right.
You know, I mean, that was sortof an example where it was
almost the practice got ahead ofthe theory, right?
I mean, we knew the researchshowed that this should be okay,
shouldn't have the negativeeffect on jobs, but I didn't, I
(11:29):
didn't think it was going to bepolitically feasible.
I mean this was, this was a bigsurprise to me.
Sean Ryan (11:34):
Yeah, it was.
It was a real surprise to, youknow, as a member of the
legislature when we wereactually able to push that
through it and put it together,we quickly went from, you know,
rhetoric to practice.
But you know, we've done a lotin Western New York to try to,
you know, to improve theeconomic conditions, but that
increase in the minimum wage,which, you know, in Buffalo it
(11:55):
tops off not at 15 but at 12,you know, that put like 25% more
wages on people's tables.
It really had an incredibleimpact in terms of, you know,
reducing poverty and then alsothe working poor, you know,
suddenly you are able to affordto put a roof on your house.
(12:16):
So, you know, these are the samejobs, but we essentially
mandated that they pay about 25%more and, you know, we held our
breath, but all the data isshowing that we not only didn't
lose jobs, but we actuallygained jobs.
Dean Colvin (12:33):
Yeah, and I mean, one of the things I found really
interesting is that it seemslike it has a knock-on effect so
that you know, people above theminimum wage point, right, and,
uh, you know, unions with theircontracts can then actually
negotiate more because there's ahigher floor.
So they're not having to competewith that real rock bottom low
wage type of business model.
Sean Ryan (12:54):
I think you're, I think you're absolutely right.
You bring that, that floor up,and then other companies have to
respond to stay competitive.
And it also, you know, Isubscribe to that theory of the
increase in minimum w age i s,you know, it's fast money into
the economy.
That money doesn't go toinvestment funds.
It doesn't go to longtermstrategies.
(13:16):
It goes right back out onto thestreet, into the cash boxes of
local stores and restaurants,and retail establishments.
It seems to be having a prettypositive effect.
Dean Colvin (13:30):
Yeah, no, it's really great to see that and,
you know, I think it opens uppossibilities to think about,
you know, more policies likethis that can have that real
economic development impact.
But you know, one of the thingsthat's been interesting in the
work we've been doing,particularly in Western New
York, is this attempt to map outwhere it is that you can see
(13:54):
potentials for really increasingjob numbers.
We've got some work we're doingaround like in the healthcare
industry trying to figure out,you know, where we can get more
access to employment.
And particularly, you know,there's a lot of groups that
haven't had really good accessto jobs in the past.
You think of people withdisabilities, which you know, is
a huge, a huge issue.
(14:16):
A criminal record, you know,cutting people off from jobs,
right?
When we know that the best wayto prevent somebody committing a
crime again is to get them ajob, right?
You know, and trying to figureout the spots where you can get
that access.
Sean Ryan (14:31):
You'll see as the, as the workforce is tightening,
companies aren't objecting tothe Ban t he Box of not being
able to ask about, yo u k n ow,criminal behavior in the past.
Companies are starting to dropsome of th eir, their drug
tests.
You know, an d t hen frankly,you know, there are companies
(14:53):
that probably didn't have thebest track records wi th, with
hiring people of color ar e suddenly, you know, recruiting in
neighborhoods of color to try and b ring people into the
workforce.
So it turns out a strong economyreally, really does lift all
boats at the same time.
I think we're seeing that.
Dean Colvin (15:11):
Yeah.
You know, I think it opens upreally new possibilities.
You know, I was thinking aboutone of the projects we're doing
at ILR where we're looking atcriminal records effects and
we've got people going intoprisons looking at, and working
with, incarcerated individualswho are about to be released and
doing education about jobs.
(15:31):
And, there's even a job fairthat we've run in one of the
facilities to try and connectpeople with jobs.
Right?
And that's, that's a sort ofagenda that I think, you know,
we wouldn't have been focused on10 or 20 years ago and I don't
think was on the public policyagenda.
The Ban the Box is somethingthat's really picked up in just
the last few years.
Which is a hopeful thing, right?
(15:53):
It's, it's nice to see wherepublic policy can make a
difference in people's lives.
Sean Ryan (15:59):
We are going to be an optimistic that with good policy
, public policy, we can havepositive impacts on people's
lives and the economy at thesame time.
You know, for far to often itwas sort of, it was sold as
this, you can have good publicpolicy, but it's gonna hurt your
economy in the long run.
What we're seeing a lot of thesepolicies, you have what you
(16:21):
called the, you know, theknock-on effect of raising wages
or the fast money from a minimumwage increases and, you know,
banning the box, they're allthings that are good for the
economy.
Dean Colvin (16:33):
Yeah.
And it's interesting, I think,you know, in terms of the
regional impact that thesethings have, you know, up here
in upstate New York, right,we're in a region that, you
know, had this great economichistory, but in recent years,
you know, we've had some, sometough times and I think there's,
there's sometimes been atendency to be, you know,
despondent about thepossibilities, right.
(16:54):
To think that, you know, thingscan, things can't turn around
right.
That, it will make a difference.
Right.
Uh, what we do,
Sean Ryan (17:04):
And we also, I think too, we've become a little fear
based.
So, you know, there was a lot oftrepidation about increasing the
minimum wage for fear of what itcould do to our, to our economy.
So we're seeing the, thesegrowths on most of our economic
sectors, while we still lagbehind the national average in
(17:25):
most of them, it's better thanwe've done in 20 years.
But I would say that what westill don't fully trust it.
We need some more good years ofgood economy before we become
accustomed to this as the norm.
You know, we still are a littlewary and we think, you know,
perhaps the rug could be pulledout at any second.
(17:46):
So we keep our fingers crossedand you know we whistle when we
go by grave yards.
Dean Colvin (17:52):
That's right.
You know, there's, you know, wesee it academically.
There's a lag in the positiveeffects as kind of things pick
up, right?
People take a while to beconvinced that things are moving
in a positive direction.
But you know, I think we'restarting to see those kind of
some optimism around that.
And, you know, and I think thatpotential for policy
(18:14):
interventions and thinking abouta real kind of good longterm
strategy seems to be there now.
Sean Ryan (18:20):
I think it is, you know, you referenced the
healthcare economy before, so,you know, we were trying to grow
the healthcare economy.
But we were seeing there is atwo tiered economy in healthcare
.
So if you're in a hospital, youusually get a good wage.
If you're with an insurancecompany that does health
benefits, you get a good wage.
(18:40):
But if you're providing anythingaround home health care, that's
often a low wage part of thehealth economy.
So you have people doing verysimilar jobs, in a hospital or
in a home setting.
But the people in the homesetting often get paid
substantially less money, eventhough it's cheaper, usually on
(19:02):
the system to keep people inhomes as long as possible.
But, you know, we'd have to lookat policies to make sure that
we're able to keep the wages ofpeople who provide in-home care,
you know, to keep it highbecause, you know, low wages,
we've figured out a really badfor our economy.
Dean Colvin (19:21):
Yeah and I think this is where some of the most
interesting experiments withunions and collective bargaining
have emerged.
Right?
If you look across the country,the increasing numbers of home
healthcare workers who haveunion representation has been a
real transformational effect.
I mean some of the biggestordinances, successes of being
(19:42):
in that industry.
Sean Ryan (19:44):
Yeah.
It's fascinating.
And, you don't have to go backtoo far to look at, you know,
just nurses in hospitals.
So up until the 80s, most ofthose nurses in hospital
settings were not unionized.
You know, they're all unionizednow.
And undoubtedly all the nurseswages have come up.
But also the health careoutcomes have come up at the
(20:05):
same time.
So once again, we were able toget this social policy of higher
wages for nurses simultaneously,increasing the healthcare
outcomes at the same time.
So we have to get out of thisthinking that it's sort of a
zero sum gains on these things.
We can have real gains.
Dean Colvin (20:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, you think about, youknow, you know who's going to be
looking after your parent oryourself and you know, in the
future and, you know, do youwant that person to be, you
know, paid decently, have, youknow, decent shift times and be
able to kind of live a goodmiddle-class kind of life.
You know, you think thatperson's going to be much more
able to give you better care inthat situation or your loved
(20:48):
one.
Sean Ryan (20:49):
Yeah, I, I agree.
People who are suffering undereconomic insecurity often don't
have the bandwidth then, youknow, to go in, you know, you
know, provide care, you know,too many, too many other worries
going on.
So, you know, we would like themto have some of their worries
lifted and I think we havebetter outcomes on that.
Dean Colvin (21:09):
Yeah.
Another thing that has been areal success from our standpoint
here at the ILR School inrelation to Buffalo is that
we've got this High Roadsprogram that brings Cornell
students to Buffalo working withcommunity organizations and
trying to make an impact in thelocal community that way.
(21:34):
You know, and, and we're hopingthat that's something that is
valuable for the local communityin Buffalo.
Sean Ryan (21:43):
Yeah.
I mean, it certainly has.
ILR has been in Buffalo since,right after World War II and
what they've been able to bringto Buffalo lately is just really
this an outsider's view ofoptimism, but also, you know,
reaffirming the outsider's viewthat, you know, Buffalo is a
great place.
(22:04):
Yeah.
So with these High Road fellows,those were able to bring these
students in, you know, toexperience a 360 view of Buffalo
, use their good skillset in theworkforce.
But I view them all asambassadors, who, you know,
enjoy their time in Buffalo,will go on to do other things in
(22:24):
other parts of the country, butthey'll spread the gospel of
Buffalo being a really a goodplace, often exceeding their
expectations at all fronts.
Dean Colvin (22:35):
Yeah.
That's something I've reallyheard from the students.
So you get some of the studentswho you know, are from the
region and know it, but the, thereally interesting ones are the
ones who, you know, might'vegrown up down in New York city,
you know, never really got toknow this part of the state at
all.
And they get up to Buffalo andit opens their eyes.
It really is a different kind ofexperience.
(22:58):
You know, we, we talk about, youknow, a period of kind of where,
you know, the country is morefractured than it's been in the
past and, and that idea of kindof getting our students out to,
to see, you know, another partof the country I think is
transformative.
Sean Ryan (23:16):
I think it's invaluable.
And they really do get acomplete view of Buffalo.
I mean, they go to workplaces,they visit people in their homes
and they realize that, holy cow,this is a city with median
housing price is about$150, 000.
Our commute time is about 15minutes on average.
(23:36):
We have world class art museums.
We have the Buffalo Bills.
We have the Buffalo sabers,University of Buffalo, and you k
now, t hey, get to see it all.
But I think, you know, aroundAmerica th ere's m any more
cities like Buffalo then thereare cities like New York city,
(23:56):
you know, and Los Angeles.
So, you know, this is the economy's t hat we're trying to
improve and we're representativeof similar economies all across
America that we're trying tofigure out solutions for.
Dean Colvin (24:12):
Yeah, yeah.
It's really a great learningexperience, right?
To see that sort of practicalthing of how the real economy
works.
Um, and you know, what it meansin terms of local communities.
I think that the housing pricething is one of those great kind
of contrast.
Right.
You know, you, you're talkingabout the kind of housing costs
that would get you maybe like a,a closet in New York city to
(24:34):
live in.
You know, that really opens theeyes.
Sean Ryan (24:41):
From an architectural perspective, you know, the
unintended consequence of havingeconomic doldrums, you know,
from the 50s to recently was wedidn't have a lot of large scale
demolitions of our historicstructures.
So throughout downtown we have,you know, beautiful buildings
that in other economies probablywould have been removed.
(25:02):
You know, we have neighborhoodafter neighborhood of houses
built between 1900 in 1920.
It looks picture perfect.
And you go inside, the housesand they were built with such a
high, high level ofcraftsmanship from that period
of time.
And you know, using, you know,wood that you can't really even
get anymore.
(25:22):
I t's, it's really a, a, it'smind boggling to walk in some of
these Buffalo houses andbuildings that you have to think
that, you know, we still have itand it's achievable and to
people of more modest means.
Dean Colvin (25:34):
Yeah.
And it's amazing to see how,what potential there is for, as
the economy picks up and as thecommunity's being renewed, uh,
you know, how you can build onthat infrastructure.
I mean, I think at that, when Igo to our ILR office in Buffalo,
which is in this beautiful old,like 1890, 1900 building and
it's got that beautiful oldskeleton to it, but then you go
(25:56):
into the offices where they'verenovated and it's this
beautiful modern, open officewithin this amazing historical
building.
And, you know, and I think, youknow, across that kind of, you
know, a community skeleton ofinfrastructure for the, the old
buildings there, there'senormous potential, for, for
(26:17):
kind of renovation and newbuilding.
Sean Ryan (26:19):
There is, you know, we, we recognize that as a
strength.
You know, people want stuffthat's tangible and you know,
they call it real, you know,this is, this is real stuff and
there's generations attached toit.
We try to catalyze that in NewYork state by the historic tax
credit.
The federal government has ahistoric tax credit.
(26:40):
And then we match the federalgovernment's with a separate New
York state tax credit and that'sdone wonders are redoing our old
buildings.
And we brought our rate down tothe neighborhood level, so that
if you're in a historic districtthat, you know, putting a roof
on your house qualifies you fora New York state historic tax
credit.
(27:01):
So it's gone from doingwonderful big buildings like the
Market Arcade that you werereferring to, the Lafayette
Hotel or just houses throughoutneighborhoods that really help
to catalyze investments and helpto defray some of the costs
associated with, you know,working on, you know, centuries
old buildings.
Dean Colvin (27:22):
Yeah.
I think it's a great example of,of how public policy makes a
difference, right?
And, and in areas that aren'tthe sort of sexiest areas of
public policy, right?
Zoning policy, right, isn't the,the sexiest issue, but it's one
that affects people where theylive.
It affects communities, thelandscape that we move through,
and, and has these, theseprofound effects of the local
(27:44):
economy and people's people'slived lives.
Sean Ryan (27:46):
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's wonderfulwhen you can put policies in to
effect that, you know, you couldsee it coming out, whether it's
the historic tax credit, thechanges in the minimum minimum
wage, the Brownfield taxcredits, all, you know, all
these policies, you know, havean impact.
And you know, there is always anelement of risk when you put
(28:07):
together a public policy.
I mean, you rely on, academicsand folks who like are at the
ILR School that tell you wethink you're on the right track
here, right?
Then we put them into place andthere's real life consequences
of that.
And you know, more often thannot, it's my opinion that we get
it right.
But we, I think we need to bebolder as we move forward as we
(28:31):
think of lifting the economiesof the rest of the state.
You know, let's face it, theonly truly healthy city in all
of New York state is New Yorkcity.
The Buffalos, the Rochesters,the Syracuse, Albany, Utica,
Binghamton, Elmira.
They're all under tremendousstrain.
So we need to look at thedifferent regions of our state,
(28:54):
but also come up with policiesthat are designed to
intentionally kickstart oururban areas.
Dean Colvin (29:01):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, in ourside is the kind of university's
perspective on it.
You know, we can come up withthe ideas but we don't know how
they'll actually work until youguys put them into practice.
And we can take a look at thosepolicies and see, Hey, you know,
yeah, this worked, that didn't,let's refine it a little bit.
Here's some new ideas and wekeep moving forward.
(29:24):
But you've got to have the boldpolicies.
You got to try them out to seeif they're going to work.
Sean Ryan (29:27):
Yeah, I mean the work of the ILR school in Buffalo in
the last 20 years, you folks dida report called Champions of
Work and updated that report.
And it all talked about, youknow, the different types of
jobs in our economy in how didyou have jobs in their impact
differ based on their wage andbenefit packages.
(29:50):
So that really opened our eyesto this idea of we need to focus
more on jobs that have thepotential to pay a higher salary
rate.
And that's the jobs we should befocusing on.
And I believe your school coinedthe tag of"high road economic
development policies." But withthe high road policy, you'll
(30:13):
look at, you know, the job all,you know, all the way through.
So we're going to subsidize acompany that company's going to
come in.
We look at the environmentalimpacts of that, and then we
look at the workforce, thedevelopment that'll need.
But then, you know, the type ofjob that'll be created, the pay
and how long we think it'll lastin the economy.
(30:33):
So it really helps us change theway we think of things.
Dean Colvin (30:37):
Yeah, no, that's really great.
I mean, I think that's, that'sthe core of our kind of mission
as the ILR school is that we'retrying to come up with ideas
that can be used in practice,that really have impact
improving people's lives andreally helping communities.
You know, we are the, uh, NewYork State School of Industrial
and Labor Relations where theland grant university for New
(30:57):
York state.
And so it's important that we dothings that will have impact on
the state and improve the livesof New York Staters.
Sean Ryan (31:05):
Well, I think you're, I think you're, you're doing a
good job and it's certainlyhaving a, a positive impact in
the city of Buffalo.
Dean Colvin (31:13):
Well thanks.
And you know, it's really goodhaving great partners in the
Buffalo area.
You know, we really appreciatethat and being able to work with
the leaders of the Buffalocommunity to, to have that
positive impact in the localarea.
Sean Ryan (31:25):
Thanks so much.
Dean Colvin (31:26):
Great.
Thank you.
Diane Burton (31:29):
Thank you for joining us for"Work! Exploring
the future of work, labor andemployment." In our next
episode, Dean Colvin talks withauthor Jon Gordon about
leadership in the workplace.
Again, thank you for listeningand learn more about ILR by
visiting us on the web atilr.cornell.
(31:49):
edu.
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