September 30, 2024 • 32 mins
In this episode of Writers With Wrinkles, hosts Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid chat with Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong, literary agent at Marsal Lyon Literary Agency. Cathie discusses her journey in the publishing world, offering insightful tips on querying, writing from the heart, and maintaining professionalism on social media.
Guest Bio
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong is a literary agent at Marsal Lyon Literary Agency, author, and book lover. She began her writing career in 2014 with her debut historical fiction, The Edge of Nowhere, and later published the YA novel Roam, which addresses homelessness. With nearly a decade of experience as a literary agent, she’s passionate about championing fresh voices in publishing.
Key Discussion Points
- Querying Best Practices – Cathie emphasizes the importance of being ready before querying, having critique partners, and researching agents thoroughly. She also highlights the need to follow submission guidelines precisely.
- Writing from the Heart vs. Writing for the Market – Cathie discusses the balance between writing something personal and being aware of market trends, encouraging authors to merge the two.
- Social Media and Professionalism – Cathie explains how social media presence can impact an author’s chances with an agent, stressing the importance of kindness and professionalism online.
- What Cathie Looks for in Submissions – She seeks manuscripts that evoke emotion, stating that she loves stories that make her laugh and cry. Writing quality and chemistry with the manuscript are crucial.
Conclusion
Cathie offers invaluable advice to aspiring authors, stressing the importance of genuine, heartfelt writing, while also recognizing market needs. She highlights the significance of professionalism, both in submissions and online presence, for a successful literary career.
Mentioned Links
- Follow Cathie on Twitter for submission tips
- Cathie's manuscript wish list
- Podcast website: WritersWithWrinkles.net
Visit the Website
Writers with Wrinkles Link Tree for socials and more!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa Schmid (00:00):
Hi, friends, before we get to our interview with
Kathy Hedrick Armstrong, Iwanted to mention a special
giveaway that I am offering.
So the spooky season is upon usand, with that in mind, I have
joined forces with AdamRosenbaum, author of the Ghost
Rules, for a middle gradegiveaway.
We will be giving away copiesof our books Heart and Souls and
(00:22):
the Ghost Rules, along with afree online school visit running
from 930 to 1007.
For more information, visit meat Liesel Schmid on Twitter and
Instagram.
Beth McMullen (00:40):
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullin and I'm Lisa
Schmid, and we're the co-hostsof Writers with Wrinkles.
This is season three, episode36.
And today's guest is KathyHedrick Armstrong, a lifelong
book lover and passionatestoryteller.
She began her publishingjourney in 2014 with her debut
(01:03):
novel, the Edge of Nowhere, ahistorical fiction inspired by
her grandmother's life duringthe Dust Bowl and Great
Depression.
Kathy followed it up with Rome,a young adult novel addressing
homelessness.
After eight years as a literaryagent, she's now with Marshall
Lyon Literary Agency, where shecontinues to champion new voices
in the industry.
So welcome, kathy.
(01:23):
We are super excited to haveyou on the show today.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (01:26):
Thank you for inviting me.
I'm super excited to be here.
Lisa Schmid (01:30):
So, kathy, it's me when I first reached out to you.
Now I follow you on Twitter andI love you to pieces.
You are an open book.
I watch how you engage and thebanter you have that goes on
with your clients Also.
You just you're a very kindperson and there's just all
these things I just love aboutyou so much.
(01:51):
But I also have a very specialconnection with you and that we
were both in the same debutgroup.
We were Novel 19s and Iactually I read Rome and loved
it, thank you.
And so it's one of those thingswhere I just I can't believe I
haven't asked you sooner to comeon Writers With Wrinkles and
(02:13):
all of a sudden the other day Iwas like, oh my God, what am I
thinking?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (02:16):
So here you are, and it was so much
fun being in that debut groupwith you, oh, I felt like and
probably you felt the same waywe just had so many connections,
so many friends that we madethrough that whole year and I
just I hope every author hasthat opportunity to have a group
like we had.
Lisa Schmid (02:32):
Yeah, it was definitely a good group.
I'm still in contact with a lotof those folks and it is fun to
see where people like, howpeople have taken off, how
people have grown and whatdirections they've gone.
And so, yeah it was.
It was a really fun group.
Beth McMullen (02:47):
It's nice to have that debut year together too,
because you're all going throughthe same stuff, so you feel way
less lonely because, of course,writing is a mostly solitary
exercise, so and that debut yearcan feel so heady.
You know, there are all thesethings that are coming at you
that are brand new, so it isreally, really nice to surround
(03:09):
yourself with people who areexactly in the place that you
are and have the same questionsthat you do and absolutely what
was that like?
Lisa Schmid (03:16):
I mean, just before we jump into the questions,
being a debut author you are onthe other end of the stick, so
to speak, um, from being anagent.
I wonder often if you got, like, posed different questions or
if you know, if that, if youwere treated differently, or
just it took me a while tofigure out, you were even an
agent.
Um, when I was in the group Iwas like, oh, I wonder what her
(03:38):
experience is like being in adebut group, being both an agent
and a little newbie author.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (03:44):
Well, there's probably a reason that
she didn't know that I wasagenting at the same time.
You kept it down low.
I really did.
You know, as an author first, Ireally struggled with whether
or not I could be seen aslegitimate, as an agent also.
So there was a lot of impostersyndrome.
I think we all know aboutimposter syndrome.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're a newbie author or you.
You know we all have it.
(04:05):
So, actually, amazingly, it wasEric Smith at PS Literary that
actually inadvertently he has noidea pulled me out of that
imposter syndrome, because I waswatching him.
He started about the same timeI did, and he had no, seemingly
no imposter syndrome, and he wasmailing deals left and right.
(04:25):
I thought, you know, if he cando it and nobody's side eyeing
him, maybe I can too, and so ittook me about four years, though
, to to finally say, okay, I can, I can do this, I can let
people know this is what I'mdoing, and but it was hard.
Lisa Schmid (04:38):
Eric Smith is.
He's been on the show and he'sanother person that I view as
very kind and very giving to thewriting community, and those
are the kind of people I'm drawnto on social media, and so when
I see those, I'm immediatelyeyeballing them like you're
coming on the show, I want youDon't even bother saying no, and
(05:00):
so I haven't met Eric yet andbut that has always been my
impression of him is very kind,very approachable.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (05:06):
So absolutely I think your
instincts were right on.
Lisa Schmid (05:09):
So I'm just going to like throw you into the fire
right away.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (05:13):
So I'm used to it.
That's what my clients do to me, so I'm good, I'm good to go Do
not be nervous.
Lisa Schmid (05:19):
Take a sip of water and embrace impact.
Okay, so I remember on Twitterand I don't know if it's still a
thing like query tip, hashtag,query tip so I think a lot of
people, and especially peoplewho are new to the game I know I
made a zillion mistakes and Ican look back on them now and
(05:39):
check all at all the horriblethings I did when I was querying
but to save people that routethat I went through, what are
some of the do's and don'ts ofqueering that you see, that you
can throw out there to writersto help them along their way?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (05:56):
That's such a good question because I
wish I'd had the answers to thatquestion when I started too.
So before I say anything, Iwill start and tell you that I
made every mistake you canpossibly make as an author and I
look back and I have so muchempathy for those who are going
through it now.
So the biggest thing is makesure you're ready.
I know when I first started, Iwrote this whole book and I
thought it was great.
I mean, well, I thought it wasreally good and I pass it off to
(06:17):
other people who were like thisis wonderful, you should
publish it.
And I said okay.
And then I started querying andI had no idea that it would be
helpful to get you know acritique partner or two, if you
can, somebody who ideally isanother writer that maybe
compliments your weaknesses andyou compliment their weaknesses,
so that you're kind of a yinand a yang, so you know other
(06:37):
authors to read it, so they canshare their experience with you
in terms of actual querying,just understanding how to write
a query letter, understandingthe importance of really looking
into the agents that you'rethinking about querying and
asking yourself is this reallysomebody that I would be
comfortable representing me andyou can only know so much from
social media and from Googlingand looking at their websites.
(06:58):
But sometimes you get those gutfeelings that say, yeah, I don't
think that that would be a goodfit for me and you should
really listen to your gut.
But yeah, just really make surethat you're following their
submission guidelines, learn howto write a query letter and
give them what they're askingfor.
I think that's the biggestthing is, you know I'm I'm very
forgiving across the board, butone of the things I'm not
forgiving about at all is I'veposted pretty much everywhere
(07:25):
Please do not send me queries tomy email and I put it
everywhere I possibly can.
So there's no, if you, if youwould look me up at all, you
can't miss it.
So invariably I get about fivea week in my inbox and I
automatically hit delete withouteven looking at it.
Beth McMullen (07:35):
I had a conversation very recently with
this book coaching client ofmine and it was about that very
thing.
Where he was, he was puttingtogether a submission and he
said they asked for 10 pages.
Can I send 15?
No, they asked for 10.
And the reason they asked for10 is because they just want 10.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (07:55):
And one of the reasons why we ask
for five or 10 or three pages orwhatever it is, is because we
really get what we needinitially to get started to make
that next step.
So if you give me, if I askedfor 10 pages and you send me 15
or 20, you're not helping thecase any, because you're either
reinforcing what I've alreadyfigured out.
So whatever they ask for iswhat they need to know.
I'm not going to get the wholestory from 10 pages.
(08:15):
I can't tell you much about thecharacters or anything in 10
pages, but I can tell you whatyour writing's like.
I can tell you whether you'restarting the right spot.
I can tell you whether you'restarting at the right spot.
I can tell you whether you'reengaging me, and those are the
things that I'm looking for, andthen I'll read more.
Lisa Schmid (08:26):
Say their first chapter is 11 pages or 12 pages,
do you still just want the 10pages?
Because I see that questionposed a lot.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (08:35):
I just got that question the other day
, and what I usually tell peopleis don't stop in the middle of
a sentence.
I mean, if it's 10 pages andyou have, you know, another
sentence or two in that, in thatparagraph, go ahead and finish
it out.
But again, you don't need tofinish the whole chapter.
I get a really good feeling andand you know, that might
actually be a good thing too.
If you don't finish it out,maybe I get to the end of that
10 pages and I'm like whoa,where's the rest of it?
Beth McMullen (08:59):
You know and that's what you want.
That is is the best casescenario right there.
You cannot wait for the next 10pages.
I love that.
I think that is such a greatthing to just reinforce to
people.
Follow the rules, give theagent what they're asking for.
They have a system.
They've done this a lot.
They understand that they'regoing to get enough from 10
pages.
It'll be okay.
Deep breaths.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (09:20):
Well, and I think, if any, if there
are other agents out there thatare like myself.
It took me a long time to comeup with what my what, worked
best for me.
I've asked for five pages, I'veasked for three chapters, I've
asked for 50 pages and now I'mdown to 10 pages and then I go
from there instead of asking forthe full manuscript If I want
to read more.
Instead of asking for the fullmanuscript, I only asked for the
next five chapters, and I dothat because if I could ask for
(09:42):
more, I can ask more people forthe first five chapters.
If I'm only committing myselfto five chapters, whereas if I
ask 20 people for the wholemanuscript, I have this queue
sitting out there that gives meanxiety.
But five chapters I can sitdown and knock that out in a
half an hour.
Beth McMullen (09:56):
And that speaks to your experience too, because
you've been doing this for longenough that you know exactly
what you need, to have enoughknowledge to say yes or no.
That's what people should wantfrom an agent somebody who can
tell, who has that deepexperience in figuring out what
is going to work and what'sgoing to be a good relationship.
So I think that should beconfidence building to people
(10:18):
when you stumble across an agentwho's very confident in what
they need from you and that'swhat you need to deliver, I love
that.
That's what people need to hear.
We're like highlighting andunderlining this for everybody.
If that's something that youcan do in audio, we'll see.
So, speaking about queryletters, you say query letters
to authors and we all break outin hives those words what do you
(10:41):
look for?
What is the query letter thatmakes you sit up and take notice
?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (10:47):
Oh, that's such a good question
because it's such an easy thingto accomplish.
It really is.
So you just spent all this timeand you've written this.
You know 85 to a hundredthousand word manuscript, and
now you got to put it in aboutthree paragraphs.
What are you going to do?
And so I tell them you know, Itell clients or I tell authors
when I go out and dopresentations obviously you
(11:07):
start with your, with youropening.
You know, in terms of hello,whatever it is you want to say,
don't give me a lot ofinformation about why I'm going
to love this manuscript and thatso-and-so said it was great,
and this person says it'sawesome, and this person wants
to write a movie about it, andall that because that's not
helpful to me, because what Iwant to know is what is your
story about?
So start with just a briefopening Hi, I'm reaching out to
(11:28):
you because I saw you on Twitterand you represent what I love
to write, or something like that.
Just something really brief.
And then go into your briefsynopsis, which has five very
easy parts and it is.
And actually I tell my clientsthis when they sit down to write
a manuscript, like their nextmanuscript.
I asked them to start with thesefive questions because if you
get these five questions started, then not only do you have the
(11:49):
core of your manuscript, butwhen you get ready to write that
query, you've got it.
So, who is your main character?
What does your main characterwant?
Who or what is standing in yourmain character's way?
Okay, what do they need to doto get around that obstacle,
that person or that thing that'sstaying in their way?
And then, what are the positiveor negative outcomes that might
occur if they achieve theirgoals?
(12:12):
So, and that fifth point, isyour stakes.
If you don't have stakes, youjust have a journal.
You don't really have a story.
So if you get those things, youknow, just say hello, get right
into what those five things are, to write your query and then
throw your bio at the verybottom of it and you're good to
go, because that's where my eyesare going to go.
Obviously you know your wordcount and your genre and
(12:32):
everything like that, butprecede it with a lot of
extraneous information and myeyes glaze over by the time I
get to the, to what your storyis about, and you don't want
that.
Beth McMullen (12:41):
That is another thing that everyone should
highlight and underline rightthere.
That is such a nice succinctway of hitting the beats that
you need in that query letter.
That is such a great way to putit, because there's so much
stuff out there on query lettersthat I think if you're a new
person just doing this for thefirst time, it must feel like
your head is going to explodebecause there's just so much
(13:04):
information and you're like whatdo I follow?
What is true, what is real?
It's intense.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (13:10):
Well and when you think about it you
know they talk about queryletters should be no more than
about 300 words.
You have just written 85 to ahundred thousand words, and now
you've got to break it down tothat many words.
So how do you, where do youstart there and what you do?
If you start with those fivequestions, you break out all
that gray noise in the back.
You don't even have to thinkabout it, you just go straight
to the point of what it isyou've got.
Beth McMullen (13:29):
That is great.
I love that so much.
I'm going to write it down andput it on my wall.
Lisa Schmid (13:35):
One of those things when you're working on a book
right now and I'm in the lastfew chapters and, as you're
saying, as you're listing offall those bullet points, I'm
going through my head becauseit's all about me right now and
I'm like am I answering allthose questions?
Am I doing all that right now?
And so it just you know, andthose are good things to think
(13:58):
about when you're writing thestory.
You know, not alone, just youknow, for your query, and before
you send it off, make sure thatyou've answered all those
questions.
So next question and of coursethis is also something that's a
big mystery for authors, becausea lot of times you'll see
writers say oh, you know, sheposted that she wants this and
(14:20):
you know I sent her exactly whatshe wants and she didn't sign.
You know what I mean.
You get I'm sure you see thatall the time.
I see it too, and I just youknow.
When people say that I'm likeokay, you missed something.
If that's what she wants, thenyou missed something in your
story and it's time toself-reflect.
But with all those kinds ofswirling thoughts in mind, what
(14:40):
is your decision-making processwhen taking on a new author?
Like, what are all the aspectsthat you look at before you
actually say I want to make thecall with you.
That's a good question.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (14:51):
So first of all, obviously the
writing has to be there.
When I first started out, I hada lot more time to work with
editing, specifically line editsand that kind of thing, and I
don't have as much time anymore.
So when I'm doing a lot of thatthen I'm taking time away from
my other clients.
So I'm looking for really cleanwriting and toward that end I
(15:12):
mean I've got a lot of toolsthat I've provided to authors so
that they can clean up theirmanuscripts and find those
things that are obvious to therest of the world but not to
them.
So I'm looking for cleanwriting Together with that and
almost more important, becausesometimes I can do a little bit
with editing Almost moreimportant is I got to have
chemistry with that, with themanuscript, with the story, with
the characters.
I want to be pulled in.
I want somebody to grab me bythe throat and just make me turn
(15:32):
those pages, and I don't meanthat it has to be an
action-packed novel or anythinglike that.
A client just turned in amanuscript that I did not expect
from her.
I had no idea it was coming.
It was not anything like she'dever written and it was not one
of those fast page turners.
But it was one of those pageturners that it pulled you in so
deeply that you almost had avisceral connection, you know,
(15:54):
to the pages and you just wantedto turn because you wanted to
see what was going to happennext.
But it was so quiet and solovely and it was just kind of
like floating on a stream kindof a thing.
So it doesn't have to be one ofthose 007s we jump into, jump
off the side of a building orsomething like that.
It just needs to have somethingthat causes me to continue
reading.
And I think one of the thingsthat I would say and I think
(16:15):
this is maybe the most importantthing I ever tell authors when
I pass is that reading isnothing more than chemistry.
So I have to have chemistrywith the manuscript in the same
way that you have chemistry withyour partner.
And let's say, your partner isa twin, but you're in love with
your partner but you're not inlove with your partner's twin.
And why is that?
They look exactly the same.
(16:35):
They've got all the same piecesthere, even down to their brown
hair and brown eyes or whateverit is, but the chemistry is not
there and you can't quitedescribe why it's there with one
and not the other just isn't.
And and that's what reading islike for anybody you can pick up
a book today and absolutelyjust not like it and wait six
months and pick it up again andall of a sudden it resonates
with you and uh and I've hadthat happen too.
Lisa Schmid (16:57):
It's amazing and that's such a perfect analogy.
I've never thought about thatwhole twin thing.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (17:01):
Yeah, the twins look exactly alike.
But you know you're in lovewith your, your partner, but not
with their twin.
Lisa Schmid (17:09):
Do you look at their social media to see, like,
kind of, who they are?
And because this is somethingwe talk about a lot, yeah,
warning people giving them thedon't.
You know, be careful what youpost, because that is a
reflection of who you are.
Cathie Hedrick-Armst (17:23):
Absolutely , I do look at it.
I do not look at it.
For what is your following like?
Because I do fiction.
So for nonfiction, obviously,your numbers are more important.
But for fiction, what I'mlooking for, and especially with
my client base, my clients arelike a family and I know that
sounds kind of silly because weare in a business world, but
they are all very, very closeand they're close with me.
They're close with each otherand I don't want to do anything
(17:45):
to upset that apple cart ofthose of those relationships
working together.
So I do, I go out there and Ilook at social media and I want
to know that you're a goodperson, that your head's in the
right spot, that you're kind,that you are helpful.
If you can be, it's okay.
If you're an introvert andthere isn't I don't like bullies
.
I don't want to deal withsomebody who's mean spirited and
(18:09):
bullying somebody, because ifyou do that anonymously out
there, you're going to come intomy group and you're going to do
it too and I won't stand for it.
Lisa Schmid (18:14):
Have you ever turned somebody down or just
decided not to based on theirsocial media?
Cathie Hedrick-Armst (18:19):
Absolutely Without going into a lot of
detail.
There was an author that hadqueried me recently and went on
to say some very, very unkindthings about some people on
Twitter, and it was a no-brainerfor me to say I don't even need
to look at the manuscript.
Beth McMullen (18:33):
I read something actually today Kathleen Schmidt,
who writes PublishingConfidential on Substack, which
is a great newsletter, I love it.
And she had a post today thatsaid if you don't want it in
your obituary, don't say it.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (18:46):
And I was like okay good.
Beth McMullen (18:48):
That's actually a good rule of thumb for people.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (18:51):
That, and if you wouldn't say it to my
face, don't sub tweet about meExactly.
And if you would say it to myface, would you say it a little
kinder to my face than you'resaying behind my back?
Honesty is always okay, butthere's a way to say things
honestly without beingdeliberately hurtful, and that's
what I look for.
I mean, in this world withpublishing, we're looking at
(19:13):
each other's manuscripts andsometimes you get something in
front of you.
That is especially as an agent.
Sometimes you get something infront of you that you just kind
of are like what in the worlddid I just get?
Okay, it needs a lot of workmaybe, but I don't.
You don't set it back and say,well, this is garbage, you know.
Just don't you find what isworkable in this, and you, if
you're going to say something,you say, okay, I see what you've
(19:34):
done here.
Maybe this isn't quite what youintended to do.
It's not getting across the wayyou want it to.
This is how you might work onit, but it's not helpful.
There's a difference betweencriticism and critique, and
that's just not just for lookingat manuscripts, but that's how
you interact with people.
Beth McMullen (19:49):
Yeah, and so much of that has been lost when
people think they can hidebehind this veil of anonymity
and just say whatever they want,which is so unfortunate.
So it's nice to hear that youthink about clients as family,
because that implies a level oftreatment that has kindness and
respect at the top of the heap,which is good good for everybody
(20:11):
.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstr (20:12):
Sometimes I'm not sure if it's respect or
if it's because I'm old, but Ihave a couple of clients that
call me mom.
You know, mom, you'reembarrassing me in front of my
friends.
Beth McMullen (20:24):
I actually really love that because it does feel
like there's that element ofparenting in it right.
Oh my gosh, that is amazing.
That's very funny.
So, thinking about howcompetitive the market is,
publishing has always beencompetitive.
It continues to be, so it is auphill battle, but one that we
(20:45):
are willing to undertake most ofus anyway.
So if you are sitting there atyour laptop working on your
story, how do you balancewriting from the heart and
writing for the market?
Is there a sweet spot?
Do you lean into one versus theother?
What are your thoughts on that?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (21:03):
I thought about that question
because I've had that question alot.
I get it from my clients allthe time.
I don't know if I have theright answer, but I will tell
you what my answer is.
And my answer is you reallycan't go wrong.
If you're writing from theheart and what I mean by that is
okay.
We might not sell it.
It may not be the right timeright now for that, but as a
(21:28):
reader I can tell if it'ssomething that you loved writing
or if you're writing to themarket.
Years ago, before I was an agent, I read a book by an author.
It was like her second or thirdbook and I'd liked her first or
second book, but this one justdidn't resonate with me and I
just couldn't figure out why itwasn't hitting.
And then shortly thereafter Isaw an article or something by
her where she made the commentof writing to the market is
(21:50):
really challenging, but I do itso I can sell my books.
And I went.
That was the answer.
That was the answer.
That was why it didn't resonatewith me, because on some level
I knew she didn't love what shewas writing in the same way Not
that she didn't like what shewas writing, but not in the same
way when it comes from deepwithin.
So when I have a client thatcomes to me and says I have
(22:10):
three different projects, whichone do you think I should do?
You know, I'm going to behonest with you.
I never can tell a hundredpercent whether something's
going to sell.
I hope it will.
I like the premise of it.
I just say which one is callingto you, which one is just where
.
That's just pulling at yourheartstrings and you just want
to write that one and it mightnot sell right now.
But if it doesn't sell rightnow, if it's not the right time,
then let's put it in a drawerand go on to the next thing and
(22:32):
we'll come back to it when themarket does come back around for
it.
Beth McMullen (22:36):
I like that answer because it feels very
true.
I think you see sometimes thatsame tension when you've got an
author who has a wildlysuccessful novel that then the
publisher wants to serialize itand have more of them and by the
third or fourth book you cantell they're writing to the
market, no longer writing fromthe heart, and it has lost that
(22:59):
essence that drew you to it inthe first place.
I think that's so interestingand you know I've written a
bunch of series myself and Ifelt that by the end where I'm
like I don't actually I stillknow these characters and I
still love them, but I don'tthink that I'm doing them
justice anymore.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, interesting tension it is
and I think, like I said, if youwrite from your heart, then
your heart is in it and as areader, I can feel that and I
think that could be some aspectof that chemistry.
That's just that nebulous thingthat we're not quite sure why
we feel it or why we don't.
It may be some gut feeling, butwe're connecting on some level.
Beth McMullen (23:34):
And honestly, as a writer, trying to force
yourself to write to the marketis hard and it doesn't feel good
, and you know that you're doingit.
When you're sitting down andyou're thinking, can I even eke
out 500 words today?
I don't really want to, whereasif you're doing it sort of more
personal, it feels like it'scoming from the heart.
You're just jamming through it,right?
(23:54):
Because, it feels like somethingthat you just are compelled to
do and you must tell this storyand so you can actually feel
that in the, in the moment, andit's it's good to pay attention
to you know, I feel like I'vewritten enough books that I know
now, if I'm going down thispath where I'm like this is
terrible, I don't want to dothis.
Nobody's going to want to readthis.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (24:14):
And you know, in publishing, you
know the world, the big worldout there, thinks that if you,
if you publish a book, you'regoing to be rich, and that is
just not true.
So when you consider how muchmoney we don't make and if
you're sitting down and thisfeels like a job and it is
grueling and you want to pullyour hair out and you don't want
to get up in the morning andwrite, then you're doing
something wrong.
So the answer is go back andfigure out what it is that made
(24:37):
you want to sit down the firsttime, to write the first thing,
and it was something that youlove doing.
Lisa Schmid (24:40):
This is another thing that conversations I've
had with friends recently aboutwriting from the heart and
writing for the market and Ithink it's something we all
struggle with, especially whenwe're hearing how difficult
publishing is in general.
But it seems to be even more soright now that people are kind
of scrambling a little bit,feeling like they need to write
(25:01):
to the market instead of writinga story that's really calls to
them.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstr (25:06):
Sometimes you can, you can kind of merge
the two.
Sometimes you have somethingthat really calls to you and you
know, for example, I I'm justgoing to throw this out there
Maybe right now, romance is intosports, okay.
So maybe you know, maybe you'vegot a contemporary romance in
your mind.
Do you want to do this?
Well, can you incorporate thesports aspect to appeal to those
(25:26):
readers without, without takingout the heart part of it?
I mean so, instead of the uh,the main character being a
doctor or a lawyer, maybe he's a, he owns a gym, maybe you know
whatever it is just to to kindof appeal to that piece of the
market that is wanting what you,what you're putting out.
Lisa Schmid (25:44):
That is such a perfect answer because we were,
in the last episode, talkingabout you know right from your
heart, but you also have towrite from the business, from
the perspective of this is abusiness.
So if you're writing a story,that is truly something that you
love, but you have to askyourself in the same, at the
same time, is this somethingthat will find its way in the
(26:05):
marketplace somewhere?
You know, when they ask, whenyou ask for comps, there's a
reason.
You're asking for comps isbecause has that writer thought
about how that story positionsitself in the marketplace?
And so what that advice youjust gave is perfect, because
it's combining the creativeaspect along with the business
aspect, which I think, if youwant to be a published author,
(26:28):
you have to come at it fromthose two points of view,
merging together Absolutely.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (26:34):
It makes a big difference and
you're actually taking thatpiece that you love and you're
attaching it to something thatis going to be more workable in
the industry.
Lisa Schmid (26:42):
So one more question that, before I jump
into the last question, is thatwe've heard a couple of times
that you know it's really downto, instead of five year comps,
it's like comps within the lasttwo years.
What's your take on that?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (26:56):
I just heard that recently as well, I
was at a conference, a writer'sretreat actually, and I think
the editor was from Sourcebooks,I think, and they told us two
years, that they so that's whatI'm going with now is two years.
I mean, sometimes that's alittle bit more challenging, but
if I can get two years, that'swhat we do.
Beth McMullen (27:13):
That's good to know because that has come up a
bunch in people asking us whatwe think about that, and we've
been saying two years because Ithink we read it or heard it
somewhere.
But yeah, it does make sensebecause the market does change
and if it's five years, you'reactually talking about books
that were written a substantialamount of time ago, almost a
decade, yeah, so you've lostkind of that, the what's
(27:34):
happening in the moment.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (27:36):
Well, and the other thing about to is
I've heard recently, you know,agents sit and talk and if you
can find something within thelast two years that was also
published by the same publishinghouse, not necessarily that
imprint, but you know, like ifyou've got Harper Collins and
then an imprint under underHarper Collins as well, I've
been told that that's veryhelpful too.
Beth McMullen (27:55):
That is very interesting.
Lisa Schmid (27:56):
I never thought about that, so this leads to our
very last question of the day.
Sadly, sad face.
I've got my sad face on.
What type of story do you prayto?
The literary gods will land onyour desk.
I know that there's something.
Go ahead and throw it out there, sister, because I can already
see it in your face that there'ssomething you want.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (28:19):
You know, I wish I could say
specifically something I'malways looking.
I think my favorite reads arethose books that make me laugh
in one minute, cry in the nextminute and then laugh through
tears in the next minute.
So a book that will give me allthose little pieces I want to.
I love to feel I don't mindcrying, I can have a
(28:42):
full-fledged cry session butthen make me laugh, and those
are the best kinds of books inthe world to me.
So, genre aside, I mean that'snot really helpful in terms of
the exact project, but that'sthe fields of.
What I'm looking for isanything that will just pull out
every one of those feelingsfrom me.
Beth McMullen (29:00):
That's actually a really good answer.
Yeah, I love that, oh good.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (29:04):
Well, because if you're pulling those
out of me, you're going to bepulling them out of other people
, and maybe you're not going topull the tears out of somebody
else, but you're going to pullthe laughter out of somebody
else, whereas I just tend sayingabout the heart of the book and
those emotions come from theheart, and whether the main
(29:27):
character owns a gym or is alawyer is less relevant than the
heart of the book.
Beth McMullen (29:33):
that is eliciting those responses from the reader
.
I think that's a great way tothink about it, rather than
topical or genre, the emotionthat it's bringing.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstron (29:44):
Emotion to me is really important.
I don't think I'm thatdifferent than most readers as
an agent or as a reader.
When I sit down to read, I wantto be so fully immersed that I
feel like the main character andif you've done your job, I'm
laughing as though this ishappening to me, or I'm laughing
as though this is happening tome, or I'm crying as though this
is happening to me, or I'mlaughing through tears because
(30:05):
you make me feel ridiculous.
Even though I'm not really thatcharacter, it feels like I am.
Beth McMullen (30:10):
Yeah, that's.
That is definitely what allauthors should be aspiring to.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (30:17):
Yeah, if you can make yourself laugh
and cry, you're onto somethingthis is great.
Beth McMullen (30:22):
This is great.
I saw somewhere, just toclarify, that you are closed to
submissions until November 1st.
Is that correct?
Okay so just for people outthere who are like this is now
my dream agent.
Please pause your enthusiasmuntil November 1st and do all
your prep work and be ready todo it then.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (30:40):
Work on making sure you've got all
your last edits done.
Follow me on Twitter if youwant to.
I've got some documents outthere that I really help.
Or actually just look at myquery manager.
There's some links out therealso.
Just spend that time makingsure your manuscripts are in
really good order.
Beth McMullen (30:54):
So this wraps up our time, kathy.
Thank you so, so much for beinghere and sharing your
experience with us.
There are some real nuggets ofgold in this conversation, and I
know that our listeners aregoing to be excited to get on
these things right away to maketheir submissions and their
manuscripts all the more awesome.
So thank you for joining ustoday.
(31:16):
Thank you so much for invitingme.
This is a pleasure and,listeners, please remember you
can find out more about Kathy byvisiting our podcast notes and
the blog atwriterswithwrinklesnet, and Lisa
and I are back on October 14thanswering your questions, so
please send them in, and you canfind out how to do that also on
the website or in the podcastnotes.
(31:36):
So until then, happy reading,writing and listening.
Hi, friends, before we get to our interview with
Kathy Hedrick Armstrong, Iwanted to mention a special
giveaway that I am offering.
So the spooky season is upon usand, with that in mind, I have
joined forces with AdamRosenbaum, author of the Ghost
Rules, for a middle gradegiveaway.
We will be giving away copiesof our books Heart and Souls and
(00:22):
the Ghost Rules, along with afree online school visit running
from 930 to 1007.
For more information, visit meat Liesel Schmid on Twitter and
Instagram.
Beth McMullen (00:40):
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullin and I'm Lisa
Schmid, and we're the co-hostsof Writers with Wrinkles.
This is season three, episode36.
And today's guest is KathyHedrick Armstrong, a lifelong
book lover and passionatestoryteller.
She began her publishingjourney in 2014 with her debut
(01:03):
novel, the Edge of Nowhere, ahistorical fiction inspired by
her grandmother's life duringthe Dust Bowl and Great
Depression.
Kathy followed it up with Rome,a young adult novel addressing
homelessness.
After eight years as a literaryagent, she's now with Marshall
Lyon Literary Agency, where shecontinues to champion new voices
in the industry.
So welcome, kathy.
(01:23):
We are super excited to haveyou on the show today.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (01:26):
Thank you for inviting me.
I'm super excited to be here.
Lisa Schmid (01:30):
So, kathy, it's me when I first reached out to you.
Now I follow you on Twitter andI love you to pieces.
You are an open book.
I watch how you engage and thebanter you have that goes on
with your clients Also.
You just you're a very kindperson and there's just all
these things I just love aboutyou so much.
(01:51):
But I also have a very specialconnection with you and that we
were both in the same debutgroup.
We were Novel 19s and Iactually I read Rome and loved
it, thank you.
And so it's one of those thingswhere I just I can't believe I
haven't asked you sooner to comeon Writers With Wrinkles and
(02:13):
all of a sudden the other day Iwas like, oh my God, what am I
thinking?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (02:16):
So here you are, and it was so much
fun being in that debut groupwith you, oh, I felt like and
probably you felt the same waywe just had so many connections,
so many friends that we madethrough that whole year and I
just I hope every author hasthat opportunity to have a group
like we had.
Lisa Schmid (02:32):
Yeah, it was definitely a good group.
I'm still in contact with a lotof those folks and it is fun to
see where people like, howpeople have taken off, how
people have grown and whatdirections they've gone.
And so, yeah it was.
It was a really fun group.
Beth McMullen (02:47):
It's nice to have that debut year together too,
because you're all going throughthe same stuff, so you feel way
less lonely because, of course,writing is a mostly solitary
exercise, so and that debut yearcan feel so heady.
You know, there are all thesethings that are coming at you
that are brand new, so it isreally, really nice to surround
(03:09):
yourself with people who areexactly in the place that you
are and have the same questionsthat you do and absolutely what
was that like?
Lisa Schmid (03:16):
I mean, just before we jump into the questions,
being a debut author you are onthe other end of the stick, so
to speak, um, from being anagent.
I wonder often if you got, like, posed different questions or
if you know, if that, if youwere treated differently, or
just it took me a while tofigure out, you were even an
agent.
Um, when I was in the group Iwas like, oh, I wonder what her
(03:38):
experience is like being in adebut group, being both an agent
and a little newbie author.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (03:44):
Well, there's probably a reason that
she didn't know that I wasagenting at the same time.
You kept it down low.
I really did.
You know, as an author first, Ireally struggled with whether
or not I could be seen aslegitimate, as an agent also.
So there was a lot of impostersyndrome.
I think we all know aboutimposter syndrome.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're a newbie author or you.
You know we all have it.
(04:05):
So, actually, amazingly, it wasEric Smith at PS Literary that
actually inadvertently he has noidea pulled me out of that
imposter syndrome, because I waswatching him.
He started about the same timeI did, and he had no, seemingly
no imposter syndrome, and he wasmailing deals left and right.
(04:25):
I thought, you know, if he cando it and nobody's side eyeing
him, maybe I can too, and so ittook me about four years, though
, to to finally say, okay, I can, I can do this, I can let
people know this is what I'mdoing, and but it was hard.
Lisa Schmid (04:38):
Eric Smith is.
He's been on the show and he'sanother person that I view as
very kind and very giving to thewriting community, and those
are the kind of people I'm drawnto on social media, and so when
I see those, I'm immediatelyeyeballing them like you're
coming on the show, I want youDon't even bother saying no, and
(05:00):
so I haven't met Eric yet andbut that has always been my
impression of him is very kind,very approachable.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (05:06):
So absolutely I think your
instincts were right on.
Lisa Schmid (05:09):
So I'm just going to like throw you into the fire
right away.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (05:13):
So I'm used to it.
That's what my clients do to me, so I'm good, I'm good to go Do
not be nervous.
Lisa Schmid (05:19):
Take a sip of water and embrace impact.
Okay, so I remember on Twitterand I don't know if it's still a
thing like query tip, hashtag,query tip so I think a lot of
people, and especially peoplewho are new to the game I know I
made a zillion mistakes and Ican look back on them now and
(05:39):
check all at all the horriblethings I did when I was querying
but to save people that routethat I went through, what are
some of the do's and don'ts ofqueering that you see, that you
can throw out there to writersto help them along their way?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (05:56):
That's such a good question because I
wish I'd had the answers to thatquestion when I started too.
So before I say anything, Iwill start and tell you that I
made every mistake you canpossibly make as an author and I
look back and I have so muchempathy for those who are going
through it now.
So the biggest thing is makesure you're ready.
I know when I first started, Iwrote this whole book and I
thought it was great.
I mean, well, I thought it wasreally good and I pass it off to
(06:17):
other people who were like thisis wonderful, you should
publish it.
And I said okay.
And then I started querying andI had no idea that it would be
helpful to get you know acritique partner or two, if you
can, somebody who ideally isanother writer that maybe
compliments your weaknesses andyou compliment their weaknesses,
so that you're kind of a yinand a yang, so you know other
(06:37):
authors to read it, so they canshare their experience with you
in terms of actual querying,just understanding how to write
a query letter, understandingthe importance of really looking
into the agents that you'rethinking about querying and
asking yourself is this reallysomebody that I would be
comfortable representing me andyou can only know so much from
social media and from Googlingand looking at their websites.
(06:58):
But sometimes you get those gutfeelings that say, yeah, I don't
think that that would be a goodfit for me and you should
really listen to your gut.
But yeah, just really make surethat you're following their
submission guidelines, learn howto write a query letter and
give them what they're askingfor.
I think that's the biggestthing is, you know I'm I'm very
forgiving across the board, butone of the things I'm not
forgiving about at all is I'veposted pretty much everywhere
(07:25):
Please do not send me queries tomy email and I put it
everywhere I possibly can.
So there's no, if you, if youwould look me up at all, you
can't miss it.
So invariably I get about fivea week in my inbox and I
automatically hit delete withouteven looking at it.
Beth McMullen (07:35):
I had a conversation very recently with
this book coaching client ofmine and it was about that very
thing.
Where he was, he was puttingtogether a submission and he
said they asked for 10 pages.
Can I send 15?
No, they asked for 10.
And the reason they asked for10 is because they just want 10.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (07:55):
And one of the reasons why we ask
for five or 10 or three pages orwhatever it is, is because we
really get what we needinitially to get started to make
that next step.
So if you give me, if I askedfor 10 pages and you send me 15
or 20, you're not helping thecase any, because you're either
reinforcing what I've alreadyfigured out.
So whatever they ask for iswhat they need to know.
I'm not going to get the wholestory from 10 pages.
(08:15):
I can't tell you much about thecharacters or anything in 10
pages, but I can tell you whatyour writing's like.
I can tell you whether you'restarting the right spot.
I can tell you whether you'restarting at the right spot.
I can tell you whether you'reengaging me, and those are the
things that I'm looking for, andthen I'll read more.
Lisa Schmid (08:26):
Say their first chapter is 11 pages or 12 pages,
do you still just want the 10pages?
Because I see that questionposed a lot.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (08:35):
I just got that question the other day
, and what I usually tell peopleis don't stop in the middle of
a sentence.
I mean, if it's 10 pages andyou have, you know, another
sentence or two in that, in thatparagraph, go ahead and finish
it out.
But again, you don't need tofinish the whole chapter.
I get a really good feeling andand you know, that might
actually be a good thing too.
If you don't finish it out,maybe I get to the end of that
10 pages and I'm like whoa,where's the rest of it?
Beth McMullen (08:59):
You know and that's what you want.
That is is the best casescenario right there.
You cannot wait for the next 10pages.
I love that.
I think that is such a greatthing to just reinforce to
people.
Follow the rules, give theagent what they're asking for.
They have a system.
They've done this a lot.
They understand that they'regoing to get enough from 10
pages.
It'll be okay.
Deep breaths.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (09:20):
Well, and I think, if any, if there
are other agents out there thatare like myself.
It took me a long time to comeup with what my what, worked
best for me.
I've asked for five pages, I'veasked for three chapters, I've
asked for 50 pages and now I'mdown to 10 pages and then I go
from there instead of asking forthe full manuscript If I want
to read more.
Instead of asking for the fullmanuscript, I only asked for the
next five chapters, and I dothat because if I could ask for
(09:42):
more, I can ask more people forthe first five chapters.
If I'm only committing myselfto five chapters, whereas if I
ask 20 people for the wholemanuscript, I have this queue
sitting out there that gives meanxiety.
But five chapters I can sitdown and knock that out in a
half an hour.
Beth McMullen (09:56):
And that speaks to your experience too, because
you've been doing this for longenough that you know exactly
what you need, to have enoughknowledge to say yes or no.
That's what people should wantfrom an agent somebody who can
tell, who has that deepexperience in figuring out what
is going to work and what'sgoing to be a good relationship.
So I think that should beconfidence building to people
(10:18):
when you stumble across an agentwho's very confident in what
they need from you and that'swhat you need to deliver, I love
that.
That's what people need to hear.
We're like highlighting andunderlining this for everybody.
If that's something that youcan do in audio, we'll see.
So, speaking about queryletters, you say query letters
to authors and we all break outin hives those words what do you
(10:41):
look for?
What is the query letter thatmakes you sit up and take notice
?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (10:47):
Oh, that's such a good question
because it's such an easy thingto accomplish.
It really is.
So you just spent all this timeand you've written this.
You know 85 to a hundredthousand word manuscript, and
now you got to put it in aboutthree paragraphs.
What are you going to do?
And so I tell them you know, Itell clients or I tell authors
when I go out and dopresentations obviously you
(11:07):
start with your, with youropening.
You know, in terms of hello,whatever it is you want to say,
don't give me a lot ofinformation about why I'm going
to love this manuscript and thatso-and-so said it was great,
and this person says it'sawesome, and this person wants
to write a movie about it, andall that because that's not
helpful to me, because what Iwant to know is what is your
story about?
So start with just a briefopening Hi, I'm reaching out to
(11:28):
you because I saw you on Twitterand you represent what I love
to write, or something like that.
Just something really brief.
And then go into your briefsynopsis, which has five very
easy parts and it is.
And actually I tell my clientsthis when they sit down to write
a manuscript, like their nextmanuscript.
I asked them to start with thesefive questions because if you
get these five questions started, then not only do you have the
(11:49):
core of your manuscript, butwhen you get ready to write that
query, you've got it.
So, who is your main character?
What does your main characterwant?
Who or what is standing in yourmain character's way?
Okay, what do they need to doto get around that obstacle,
that person or that thing that'sstaying in their way?
And then, what are the positiveor negative outcomes that might
occur if they achieve theirgoals?
(12:12):
So, and that fifth point, isyour stakes.
If you don't have stakes, youjust have a journal.
You don't really have a story.
So if you get those things, youknow, just say hello, get right
into what those five things are, to write your query and then
throw your bio at the verybottom of it and you're good to
go, because that's where my eyesare going to go.
Obviously you know your wordcount and your genre and
(12:32):
everything like that, butprecede it with a lot of
extraneous information and myeyes glaze over by the time I
get to the, to what your storyis about, and you don't want
that.
Beth McMullen (12:41):
That is another thing that everyone should
highlight and underline rightthere.
That is such a nice succinctway of hitting the beats that
you need in that query letter.
That is such a great way to putit, because there's so much
stuff out there on query lettersthat I think if you're a new
person just doing this for thefirst time, it must feel like
your head is going to explodebecause there's just so much
(13:04):
information and you're like whatdo I follow?
What is true, what is real?
It's intense.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (13:10):
Well and when you think about it you
know they talk about queryletters should be no more than
about 300 words.
You have just written 85 to ahundred thousand words, and now
you've got to break it down tothat many words.
So how do you, where do youstart there and what you do?
If you start with those fivequestions, you break out all
that gray noise in the back.
You don't even have to thinkabout it, you just go straight
to the point of what it isyou've got.
Beth McMullen (13:29):
That is great.
I love that so much.
I'm going to write it down andput it on my wall.
Lisa Schmid (13:35):
One of those things when you're working on a book
right now and I'm in the lastfew chapters and, as you're
saying, as you're listing offall those bullet points, I'm
going through my head becauseit's all about me right now and
I'm like am I answering allthose questions?
Am I doing all that right now?
And so it just you know, andthose are good things to think
(13:58):
about when you're writing thestory.
You know, not alone, just youknow, for your query, and before
you send it off, make sure thatyou've answered all those
questions.
So next question and of coursethis is also something that's a
big mystery for authors, becausea lot of times you'll see
writers say oh, you know, sheposted that she wants this and
(14:20):
you know I sent her exactly whatshe wants and she didn't sign.
You know what I mean.
You get I'm sure you see thatall the time.
I see it too, and I just youknow.
When people say that I'm likeokay, you missed something.
If that's what she wants, thenyou missed something in your
story and it's time toself-reflect.
But with all those kinds ofswirling thoughts in mind, what
(14:40):
is your decision-making processwhen taking on a new author?
Like, what are all the aspectsthat you look at before you
actually say I want to make thecall with you.
That's a good question.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (14:51):
So first of all, obviously the
writing has to be there.
When I first started out, I hada lot more time to work with
editing, specifically line editsand that kind of thing, and I
don't have as much time anymore.
So when I'm doing a lot of thatthen I'm taking time away from
my other clients.
So I'm looking for really cleanwriting and toward that end I
(15:12):
mean I've got a lot of toolsthat I've provided to authors so
that they can clean up theirmanuscripts and find those
things that are obvious to therest of the world but not to
them.
So I'm looking for cleanwriting Together with that and
almost more important, becausesometimes I can do a little bit
with editing Almost moreimportant is I got to have
chemistry with that, with themanuscript, with the story, with
the characters.
I want to be pulled in.
I want somebody to grab me bythe throat and just make me turn
(15:32):
those pages, and I don't meanthat it has to be an
action-packed novel or anythinglike that.
A client just turned in amanuscript that I did not expect
from her.
I had no idea it was coming.
It was not anything like she'dever written and it was not one
of those fast page turners.
But it was one of those pageturners that it pulled you in so
deeply that you almost had avisceral connection, you know,
(15:54):
to the pages and you just wantedto turn because you wanted to
see what was going to happennext.
But it was so quiet and solovely and it was just kind of
like floating on a stream kindof a thing.
So it doesn't have to be one ofthose 007s we jump into, jump
off the side of a building orsomething like that.
It just needs to have somethingthat causes me to continue
reading.
And I think one of the thingsthat I would say and I think
(16:15):
this is maybe the most importantthing I ever tell authors when
I pass is that reading isnothing more than chemistry.
So I have to have chemistrywith the manuscript in the same
way that you have chemistry withyour partner.
And let's say, your partner isa twin, but you're in love with
your partner but you're not inlove with your partner's twin.
And why is that?
They look exactly the same.
(16:35):
They've got all the same piecesthere, even down to their brown
hair and brown eyes or whateverit is, but the chemistry is not
there and you can't quitedescribe why it's there with one
and not the other just isn't.
And and that's what reading islike for anybody you can pick up
a book today and absolutelyjust not like it and wait six
months and pick it up again andall of a sudden it resonates
with you and uh and I've hadthat happen too.
Lisa Schmid (16:57):
It's amazing and that's such a perfect analogy.
I've never thought about thatwhole twin thing.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (17:01):
Yeah, the twins look exactly alike.
But you know you're in lovewith your, your partner, but not
with their twin.
Lisa Schmid (17:09):
Do you look at their social media to see, like,
kind of, who they are?
And because this is somethingwe talk about a lot, yeah,
warning people giving them thedon't.
You know, be careful what youpost, because that is a
reflection of who you are.
Cathie Hedrick-Armst (17:23):
Absolutely , I do look at it.
I do not look at it.
For what is your following like?
Because I do fiction.
So for nonfiction, obviously,your numbers are more important.
But for fiction, what I'mlooking for, and especially with
my client base, my clients arelike a family and I know that
sounds kind of silly because weare in a business world, but
they are all very, very closeand they're close with me.
They're close with each otherand I don't want to do anything
(17:45):
to upset that apple cart ofthose of those relationships
working together.
So I do, I go out there and Ilook at social media and I want
to know that you're a goodperson, that your head's in the
right spot, that you're kind,that you are helpful.
If you can be, it's okay.
If you're an introvert andthere isn't I don't like bullies
.
I don't want to deal withsomebody who's mean spirited and
(18:09):
bullying somebody, because ifyou do that anonymously out
there, you're going to come intomy group and you're going to do
it too and I won't stand for it.
Lisa Schmid (18:14):
Have you ever turned somebody down or just
decided not to based on theirsocial media?
Cathie Hedrick-Armst (18:19):
Absolutely Without going into a lot of
detail.
There was an author that hadqueried me recently and went on
to say some very, very unkindthings about some people on
Twitter, and it was a no-brainerfor me to say I don't even need
to look at the manuscript.
Beth McMullen (18:33):
I read something actually today Kathleen Schmidt,
who writes PublishingConfidential on Substack, which
is a great newsletter, I love it.
And she had a post today thatsaid if you don't want it in
your obituary, don't say it.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (18:46):
And I was like okay good.
Beth McMullen (18:48):
That's actually a good rule of thumb for people.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (18:51):
That, and if you wouldn't say it to my
face, don't sub tweet about meExactly.
And if you would say it to myface, would you say it a little
kinder to my face than you'resaying behind my back?
Honesty is always okay, butthere's a way to say things
honestly without beingdeliberately hurtful, and that's
what I look for.
I mean, in this world withpublishing, we're looking at
(19:13):
each other's manuscripts andsometimes you get something in
front of you.
That is especially as an agent.
Sometimes you get something infront of you that you just kind
of are like what in the worlddid I just get?
Okay, it needs a lot of workmaybe, but I don't.
You don't set it back and say,well, this is garbage, you know.
Just don't you find what isworkable in this, and you, if
you're going to say something,you say, okay, I see what you've
(19:34):
done here.
Maybe this isn't quite what youintended to do.
It's not getting across the wayyou want it to.
This is how you might work onit, but it's not helpful.
There's a difference betweencriticism and critique, and
that's just not just for lookingat manuscripts, but that's how
you interact with people.
Beth McMullen (19:49):
Yeah, and so much of that has been lost when
people think they can hidebehind this veil of anonymity
and just say whatever they want,which is so unfortunate.
So it's nice to hear that youthink about clients as family,
because that implies a level oftreatment that has kindness and
respect at the top of the heap,which is good good for everybody
(20:11):
.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstr (20:12):
Sometimes I'm not sure if it's respect or
if it's because I'm old, but Ihave a couple of clients that
call me mom.
You know, mom, you'reembarrassing me in front of my
friends.
Beth McMullen (20:24):
I actually really love that because it does feel
like there's that element ofparenting in it right.
Oh my gosh, that is amazing.
That's very funny.
So, thinking about howcompetitive the market is,
publishing has always beencompetitive.
It continues to be, so it is auphill battle, but one that we
(20:45):
are willing to undertake most ofus anyway.
So if you are sitting there atyour laptop working on your
story, how do you balancewriting from the heart and
writing for the market?
Is there a sweet spot?
Do you lean into one versus theother?
What are your thoughts on that?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (21:03):
I thought about that question
because I've had that question alot.
I get it from my clients allthe time.
I don't know if I have theright answer, but I will tell
you what my answer is.
And my answer is you reallycan't go wrong.
If you're writing from theheart and what I mean by that is
okay.
We might not sell it.
It may not be the right timeright now for that, but as a
(21:28):
reader I can tell if it'ssomething that you loved writing
or if you're writing to themarket.
Years ago, before I was an agent, I read a book by an author.
It was like her second or thirdbook and I'd liked her first or
second book, but this one justdidn't resonate with me and I
just couldn't figure out why itwasn't hitting.
And then shortly thereafter Isaw an article or something by
her where she made the commentof writing to the market is
(21:50):
really challenging, but I do itso I can sell my books.
And I went.
That was the answer.
That was the answer.
That was why it didn't resonatewith me, because on some level
I knew she didn't love what shewas writing in the same way Not
that she didn't like what shewas writing, but not in the same
way when it comes from deepwithin.
So when I have a client thatcomes to me and says I have
(22:10):
three different projects, whichone do you think I should do?
You know, I'm going to behonest with you.
I never can tell a hundredpercent whether something's
going to sell.
I hope it will.
I like the premise of it.
I just say which one is callingto you, which one is just where
.
That's just pulling at yourheartstrings and you just want
to write that one and it mightnot sell right now.
But if it doesn't sell rightnow, if it's not the right time,
then let's put it in a drawerand go on to the next thing and
(22:32):
we'll come back to it when themarket does come back around for
it.
Beth McMullen (22:36):
I like that answer because it feels very
true.
I think you see sometimes thatsame tension when you've got an
author who has a wildlysuccessful novel that then the
publisher wants to serialize itand have more of them and by the
third or fourth book you cantell they're writing to the
market, no longer writing fromthe heart, and it has lost that
(22:59):
essence that drew you to it inthe first place.
I think that's so interestingand you know I've written a
bunch of series myself and Ifelt that by the end where I'm
like I don't actually I stillknow these characters and I
still love them, but I don'tthink that I'm doing them
justice anymore.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, interesting tension it is
and I think, like I said, if youwrite from your heart, then
your heart is in it and as areader, I can feel that and I
think that could be some aspectof that chemistry.
That's just that nebulous thingthat we're not quite sure why
we feel it or why we don't.
It may be some gut feeling, butwe're connecting on some level.
Beth McMullen (23:34):
And honestly, as a writer, trying to force
yourself to write to the marketis hard and it doesn't feel good
, and you know that you're doingit.
When you're sitting down andyou're thinking, can I even eke
out 500 words today?
I don't really want to, whereasif you're doing it sort of more
personal, it feels like it'scoming from the heart.
You're just jamming through it,right?
(23:54):
Because, it feels like somethingthat you just are compelled to
do and you must tell this storyand so you can actually feel
that in the, in the moment, andit's it's good to pay attention
to you know, I feel like I'vewritten enough books that I know
now, if I'm going down thispath where I'm like this is
terrible, I don't want to dothis.
Nobody's going to want to readthis.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (24:14):
And you know, in publishing, you
know the world, the big worldout there, thinks that if you,
if you publish a book, you'regoing to be rich, and that is
just not true.
So when you consider how muchmoney we don't make and if
you're sitting down and thisfeels like a job and it is
grueling and you want to pullyour hair out and you don't want
to get up in the morning andwrite, then you're doing
something wrong.
So the answer is go back andfigure out what it is that made
(24:37):
you want to sit down the firsttime, to write the first thing,
and it was something that youlove doing.
Lisa Schmid (24:40):
This is another thing that conversations I've
had with friends recently aboutwriting from the heart and
writing for the market and Ithink it's something we all
struggle with, especially whenwe're hearing how difficult
publishing is in general.
But it seems to be even more soright now that people are kind
of scrambling a little bit,feeling like they need to write
(25:01):
to the market instead of writinga story that's really calls to
them.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstr (25:06):
Sometimes you can, you can kind of merge
the two.
Sometimes you have somethingthat really calls to you and you
know, for example, I I'm justgoing to throw this out there
Maybe right now, romance is intosports, okay.
So maybe you know, maybe you'vegot a contemporary romance in
your mind.
Do you want to do this?
Well, can you incorporate thesports aspect to appeal to those
(25:26):
readers without, without takingout the heart part of it?
I mean so, instead of the uh,the main character being a
doctor or a lawyer, maybe he's a, he owns a gym, maybe you know
whatever it is just to to kindof appeal to that piece of the
market that is wanting what you,what you're putting out.
Lisa Schmid (25:44):
That is such a perfect answer because we were,
in the last episode, talkingabout you know right from your
heart, but you also have towrite from the business, from
the perspective of this is abusiness.
So if you're writing a story,that is truly something that you
love, but you have to askyourself in the same, at the
same time, is this somethingthat will find its way in the
(26:05):
marketplace somewhere?
You know, when they ask, whenyou ask for comps, there's a
reason.
You're asking for comps isbecause has that writer thought
about how that story positionsitself in the marketplace?
And so what that advice youjust gave is perfect, because
it's combining the creativeaspect along with the business
aspect, which I think, if youwant to be a published author,
(26:28):
you have to come at it fromthose two points of view,
merging together Absolutely.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (26:34):
It makes a big difference and
you're actually taking thatpiece that you love and you're
attaching it to something thatis going to be more workable in
the industry.
Lisa Schmid (26:42):
So one more question that, before I jump
into the last question, is thatwe've heard a couple of times
that you know it's really downto, instead of five year comps,
it's like comps within the lasttwo years.
What's your take on that?
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (26:56):
I just heard that recently as well, I
was at a conference, a writer'sretreat actually, and I think
the editor was from Sourcebooks,I think, and they told us two
years, that they so that's whatI'm going with now is two years.
I mean, sometimes that's alittle bit more challenging, but
if I can get two years, that'swhat we do.
Beth McMullen (27:13):
That's good to know because that has come up a
bunch in people asking us whatwe think about that, and we've
been saying two years because Ithink we read it or heard it
somewhere.
But yeah, it does make sensebecause the market does change
and if it's five years, you'reactually talking about books
that were written a substantialamount of time ago, almost a
decade, yeah, so you've lostkind of that, the what's
(27:34):
happening in the moment.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (27:36):
Well, and the other thing about to is
I've heard recently, you know,agents sit and talk and if you
can find something within thelast two years that was also
published by the same publishinghouse, not necessarily that
imprint, but you know, like ifyou've got Harper Collins and
then an imprint under underHarper Collins as well, I've
been told that that's veryhelpful too.
Beth McMullen (27:55):
That is very interesting.
Lisa Schmid (27:56):
I never thought about that, so this leads to our
very last question of the day.
Sadly, sad face.
I've got my sad face on.
What type of story do you prayto?
The literary gods will land onyour desk.
I know that there's something.
Go ahead and throw it out there, sister, because I can already
see it in your face that there'ssomething you want.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (28:19):
You know, I wish I could say
specifically something I'malways looking.
I think my favorite reads arethose books that make me laugh
in one minute, cry in the nextminute and then laugh through
tears in the next minute.
So a book that will give me allthose little pieces I want to.
I love to feel I don't mindcrying, I can have a
(28:42):
full-fledged cry session butthen make me laugh, and those
are the best kinds of books inthe world to me.
So, genre aside, I mean that'snot really helpful in terms of
the exact project, but that'sthe fields of.
What I'm looking for isanything that will just pull out
every one of those feelingsfrom me.
Beth McMullen (29:00):
That's actually a really good answer.
Yeah, I love that, oh good.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (29:04):
Well, because if you're pulling those
out of me, you're going to bepulling them out of other people
, and maybe you're not going topull the tears out of somebody
else, but you're going to pullthe laughter out of somebody
else, whereas I just tend sayingabout the heart of the book and
those emotions come from theheart, and whether the main
(29:27):
character owns a gym or is alawyer is less relevant than the
heart of the book.
Beth McMullen (29:33):
that is eliciting those responses from the reader
.
I think that's a great way tothink about it, rather than
topical or genre, the emotionthat it's bringing.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstron (29:44):
Emotion to me is really important.
I don't think I'm thatdifferent than most readers as
an agent or as a reader.
When I sit down to read, I wantto be so fully immersed that I
feel like the main character andif you've done your job, I'm
laughing as though this ishappening to me, or I'm laughing
as though this is happening tome, or I'm crying as though this
is happening to me, or I'mlaughing through tears because
(30:05):
you make me feel ridiculous.
Even though I'm not really thatcharacter, it feels like I am.
Beth McMullen (30:10):
Yeah, that's.
That is definitely what allauthors should be aspiring to.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (30:17):
Yeah, if you can make yourself laugh
and cry, you're onto somethingthis is great.
Beth McMullen (30:22):
This is great.
I saw somewhere, just toclarify, that you are closed to
submissions until November 1st.
Is that correct?
Okay so just for people outthere who are like this is now
my dream agent.
Please pause your enthusiasmuntil November 1st and do all
your prep work and be ready todo it then.
Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong (30:40):
Work on making sure you've got all
your last edits done.
Follow me on Twitter if youwant to.
I've got some documents outthere that I really help.
Or actually just look at myquery manager.
There's some links out therealso.
Just spend that time makingsure your manuscripts are in
really good order.
Beth McMullen (30:54):
So this wraps up our time, kathy.
Thank you so, so much for beinghere and sharing your
experience with us.
There are some real nuggets ofgold in this conversation, and I
know that our listeners aregoing to be excited to get on
these things right away to maketheir submissions and their
manuscripts all the more awesome.
So thank you for joining ustoday.
(31:16):
Thank you so much for invitingme.
This is a pleasure and,listeners, please remember you
can find out more about Kathy byvisiting our podcast notes and
the blog atwriterswithwrinklesnet, and Lisa
and I are back on October 14thanswering your questions, so
please send them in, and you canfind out how to do that also on
the website or in the podcastnotes.
(31:36):
So until then, happy reading,writing and listening.
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