October 14, 2024 • 23 mins
In episode 37 of Writers With Wrinkles, co-hosts Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid answer listener questions about writing, with a focus on the differences between beta readers and critique partners, how to find critique partners, and advice on book comps for queries. Lisa also offers a PSA on dogs eating too many cupcakes.
Key Discussion Points:
- Beta Readers vs. Critique Partners:
Beth and Lisa explain that beta readers provide general reader feedback, focusing on how engaging a manuscript is, while critique partners offer more technical, writer-focused critiques. Beta readers are typically not writers, while critique partners should be. - How to Find Critique Partners:
They discuss several avenues for finding critique partners, including professional organizations like SCBWI, Facebook groups, and writing communities. They stress the importance of finding the right fit and being open to change if the partnership isn’t productive. - Book Comps in Queries:
The hosts advise on how to select appropriate comparative titles for book pitches, emphasizing that comps should be from within the last two years to reflect current market trends. They suggest using older favorites as a starting point for finding more recent comps. - Barley the Dog & the Box of Cupcakes:
Lisa recounts how her dog, Barley, ate a box of chocolate cupcakes, prompting her to call a pet poison hotline, which offers critical advice to pet owners in similar situations.
Conclusion:
The episode provides actionable advice for aspiring writers, helping them understand the critical role beta readers and critique partners play in the manuscript development process. Beth and Lisa emphasize the importance of feedback in refining a book and navigating the publishing landscape. They also prepare listeners for the next episode, featuring literary agent Amy Nielsen.
Mentioned Links:
- SCBWI (Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators)
- Mystery Writers of America
- Pet Poison Helpline
Visit the Website
Writers with Wrinkles Link Tree for socials and more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmidt
and we're the co-hosts ofWriters with Wrinkles.
This is season three, episode37.
And today we're answeringquestions.
Quick note on how to submitVisit our website for the link
Text from the podcast notes.
Yell really loudly across timezones.
We will hear you and I will putall this in the podcast notes
(00:22):
so when that burning questionthat keeps you up all night, you
want to send it to us.
This will make it super easy.
What's going on, lisa, beforewe get into the questions,
what's happening in youruniverse other than your dog
trying to kill himself by eating27 chocolate cupcakes?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh my God, this is a public service announcement.
My dog, barley and anybody whoknows me knows that Barley is a
little bit of a nightmare.
He's a black lab, he's alwaysin trouble.
He's eaten all my favoritefoods.
He is constantly doingsomething naughty, and the other
day I'd got 12 of those littlemini chocolate cupcakes and I
(01:08):
was going to bed and all of asudden I heard this weird
crunching noise.
I'm like what is that?
When I walked over and barleywas chewing on the remains of a
plastic container that housedthose cupcakes and so I went in
and you know he's been known tograb stuff from various places,
but they, they got left out andstruck in by a guest and he ate
(01:32):
like nine of them, and so allpandemonium broke out.
But the good news not the goodnews, I mean the good news is
he's fine, but there is a um, apoison hotline for dogs that you
can call and they literallywill.
They literally will ask you howmuch he weighed, how many
chocolate cupcakes, what was thebrand, and they look up
(01:52):
everything.
They had the brand in there,they had everything, and then
they came back within a fewminutes and he's like well, he
just had a good day.
He's going to have an upsettummy, but otherwise so they're
like watching him all night.
But it was really scary.
But the good news is, I mean,that's an amazing thing that you
can call and and tap into.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I had no idea that was even a thing, like I had
never heard of that until youmentioned it and I was like, wow
, that's cool, because you canknow whether or not this is like
okay, we have to bring this dogto the emergency vet or
whatever, or okay, he's gonna befine.
He's just like you know now,has a taste for cupcakes and is
(02:35):
a danger around sweets.
I think the takeaway is that ifthere are cupcakes in your
house, you must eat themyourself before you go to bed.
Right?
Do not leave cupcakesunattended for any amount of
time.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I got more cupcakes and this time I got vanilla and
I'm like more chocolate cupcakesfor you guys, cause I don't eat
them, but I'm just like youguys are done.
You're cut off for a while.
I've you know my poor son, Ithought you know he was
traumatized and my husband andson, while I was calling the
poison hotline, were juststaring at me Like right right,
work your magic mom, make this,make this okay.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, that was great, but at least if they're vanilla
, then it's just a sugar highand you know, it really seems
like he's always on a sugar high, so you might not even notice.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
He is crazy.
He is crazy.
The other thing I donated aprize it was a kidlit writing
contest and one of the prizes Idonated was Heart and Souls copy
of Heart and Souls.
But then to critique somebody'sfirst 10 pages, and so somebody
sent them over this gal Hannah,and it was.
You know those times whenyou're reading something and you
(03:39):
get those little goosebumps.
This was such a clever idea.
Her pitch, like.
I read the pitch and I was likeif I was an editor I would buy
it.
On the pitch itself it was sogood.
And then I read the first 10pages and it was so clever and
so well-written.
I just was like this is gettingpicked up.
I mean, I haven't read the restof it, obviously, but if it's
(04:02):
as good as those first 10 pages,read the rest of it.
Obviously, but if it's as goodas those first 10 pages, this
book.
I mark my words right now firstround, it will be get bought or
it will go to auction.
Does she have an agent already?
Yeah, you know who our agent isCaitlin Sanchez.
Oh great.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Awesome.
Look at these connections inthe world it was just so funny.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I'm like, of course you know, and I just I read it
and I had nothing for her.
I read, just so funny.
I'm like, of course you know,and I just I read it and I I had
nothing, for I read it fourtimes Cause I was like I'm
supposed to be critiquing it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You're like you get an A plus and a gold star.
That's what I said.
I'm like I read it four times.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I let it sit for two days, I went back to it and I
just I couldn't find anythingwrong with it.
And then, you know, I realizedCaitlin was her agent.
I'm like, of course, caitlin'salready, you know, gone through
it, that's actually really cool.
Oh my God, it's so good, sogood.
I can hardly wait to be holdinga copy of that book in my hands
(04:57):
.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I look forward to that moment.
That is awesome.
We have some questions from allyou listeners out there who are
, you know, trying to find apath through the publishing
universe, and we're here to help.
So what do we have teed uptoday?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
We had some really good questions from one of our
listeners that is starting thebeta process, trying to find
critique partners, and she hadsome very specific questions and
I don't know if we can use hername.
I never know, you know.
Let's not Okay, so why don'tyou throw out the first question
and then we'll go from there?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So the first question was what is the difference
between a beta reader and acritique partner?
And that's actually a reallygood question, right?
Because I don't think we'veever talked about that in any
capacity before and we'vedefinitely talked about beta
readers and talked aboutcritique partners.
But the difference is primarilythat a beta reader is just that
(06:01):
a reader.
So what you're trying to findwhen your manuscript is done and
you've revised and you've madeit as good as you can make it
and you're ready for some readerfeedback.
So the beta reader is somebodywho fits your definition of
ideal reader.
So, for example, say, you'rewriting a rom-com and it
(06:24):
features a 30-something in anurban environment and you know
people who.
That's how they describe theirfavorite books.
You know, I want a rom-com thattakes place in a city and I
want the characters to be intheir early 30s, I want them to
be out in the world, not tooyoung but not old yet, like
(06:48):
that's what somebody loves,that's who you want to read your
manuscript and you want to givethem a specific set of
questions to go along with theirread.
But it's not technical writingstuff, it's reader reaction
stuff.
So you'd say were you excitedto turn the page?
Did you feel like you connectedwith the main character, did
(07:11):
you like the story, did you likethe setting, things like that.
But you're not looking fortechnical writing feedback.
You're looking for readerreaction.
That's your beta reader, yourcritique partner, on the other
hand.
That's your beta reader, yourcritique partner, on the other
hand.
Oh, and beta readers don't haveto be and probably shouldn't be
writers, because you really arejust looking for a reader
perspective and most readers arenot writers.
(07:32):
But your critique partnershould be a writer, somebody
who's in the trenches with you.
Maybe you're in the same place,maybe they're behind or ahead
of you, it doesn't matter, butthey're the people who you are
trying to get writer advice from.
So that's going to be much moretechnical and writerly rather
than reader.
(07:53):
Does that make sense?
Makes?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
sense to me.
Maybe I'll do that next time.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Well, I think sometimes we confuse the two and
if you're asking somebody toread, you're asking for a
different set of skills to bebrought to bear on the read.
And I think sometimes feelingsget hurt because we ask critique
partners to be readers and theywant to give us technical
(08:25):
advice and really we just wantto know did you like the book?
Did you keep turning the pages?
Did you finish?
Were you happy to finish?
Were you thinking about it,which is different than them
saying you know the ending ofchapter one.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I feel like you're losing the arc and you need to
connect back to this thing yousaid before, like the very
detailed sort of writerly stuff,right, and I think sometimes if
(09:04):
we ask somebody to read andthey react as a writer, then we
get our feelings hurt becausethey're like yeah, yeah, you
have problems where reallyyou're like, do you like it or
do you not like it?
And I think adding onto that is, with your beta readers, don't
go to family and that's just.
I know a lot of people tend tolike, oh, I'm going to give it
to my mom or sister or whatever.
You know, family has a tendencynot to be honest because they
love you and they're like Ooh,it's great, it's awesome.
(09:25):
So it really go outside yourfamily.
That's like the biggest thing,Don't that's?
You're not going to get, youknow, objective feedback from a
family member.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And if you put them in a weird position too, because
you're asking them to criticizeyou and that may be something
they're very uncomfortable doing.
So you're really just wastingeverybody's time by doing it.
Yeah, and it makes for anawkward Thanksgiving, Totally
Cause you're like you hated mybook, Ergo you hate me.
Cause you know, writers aresensitive, so we overreact to
(09:57):
stuff.
So I think avoiding family forreading or writing advice unless
you happen to be, you know, theMargaret Atwood's daughter or
something then like stay awayit's never going to lead to
anything good.
It doesn't help you, it doesn'thelp them, it just gets
uncomfortable and, like you said, then you're stuck at
Thanksgiving being like I kindof hate you down there at the
(10:19):
end of the table.
There's another.
There's another difference too.
So with a beta reader, you wantto find somebody who likes that
genre With a critique partner.
They don't necessarily have towrite the same stuff that you do
.
It's totally fine if they writesomething else, as long as they
(10:42):
are experienced writers and cangive you writerly advice.
Like I, I can develop, mental,edit any genre.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat I am a reader of that genre
.
You know what I mean.
So, like you're, you're lookingat totally different skills for
both.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, the other thing this listener wanted to know
was where do you find thesecritique partners?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
History critique partner floating around in the
universe.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
And that's.
You know, that's a really goodquestion and I think even when
you feel like you've found them,you may not have found the
right fit the first couple oftimes.
And it took me, you know, ittook me a little bit and it
wasn't like my critique partnerswere bad, it's just we were on
different pages and you know, wedeveloped as things changed as
we, as we moved along.
(11:31):
But I found my critiquepartners through SCBWI, which is
a professional organization,and I found them at the very
first meeting I attended.
I literally sat down at thetable with them and that's how I
found them.
So you may not be that luckythat if you wander into a room
and they stumble into yourlittle space right there.
(11:53):
But there are so many differentwriting groups out there,
whether you find them onFacebook.
I know on Facebook there wasalso.
There's like a Kidlet 411, andI'm just being very
hyper-specific with KidletKidlet 411, there's, like you
know, people finding critiquegroups there you can find.
So, whatever genre you're in,there's always organizations
(12:15):
that you know.
There's some that are free tojoin, some that you know may
have a fee to join, but myadvice would be to go find that
organization that fits yourwriting, where you're at, and
you will find critique partners,whether it's through their
Facebook group or through theirchat boards or whatever.
That's the route I would go.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Also keep in mind that it's okay to change if
somebody's critiquing isn'thelpful to you.
Like you should never come awayfeeling bad after they've given
you criticism.
Like the criticism should behelpful, it should be
constructive and it should giveyou a path forward.
If it's making you feel bad,that's not a good fit.
(12:59):
That's not what this is about.
This is about helping you getfrom point A to point B and if
you're stuck in the middle justfeeling bad about your writing
or feeling bad about yourself orwhatever, just move on.
It's totally fine.
Not everybody's going to be theright fit.
I think you mentioned theFacebook private groups.
Those are actually a reallygood place to look for critique
(13:23):
partners.
There's a lot of people outthere who are looking to trade
projects and there's so manydifferent genres represented
that you can definitely findsomebody who's writing in your
space.
I also think the number onething is, if you are in a
professional organization likeSCBWI or Mystery Writers of
America or anything like that,that's a great place to have as
(13:45):
your initial effort, becauseit's kind of it should be
tailor-made for you.
You know they should be servingthat up.
This is a great place to connectwith people who are also
writing this type of thing.
And yeah, just be open.
Be open, remember, it's a timecommitment and if you're going
to ask somebody to read yourstuff, you are going to have to
(14:06):
read their stuff and you'regoing to have to do a good job,
so be prepared to spend the time.
If you're not prepared to spendthe time, do not start the
relationship, because it'sreally unfair for the person on
the other side to get throughyour stuff.
Give you lots of thoughtfulfeedback and then you're like,
yeah, I got nothing well, I'mcareful.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I saw this, I saw this the other day.
Somebody had posted somethingabout on on Twitter that she
felt like you know, I wouldn'tmake a difference if a published
author was critiquing my work.
Would that be bringing me up tothe next level, instead of
having the critique partnersthat I have on or that she has?
(14:49):
And so you know that's?
I don't think so.
You know, it's one of thosethings you have to start
wherever kind of you're at Likeall my critique partners in the
beginning we were allunpublished, and Catherine,
who's still my critique partnershe was unpublished.
And Catherine, who's still mycritique partner she was
unpublished and we got publishedkind of like right after each
other.
We worked up together andthat's just something.
(15:11):
When you're starting out as awriter, you have to kind of get
into the trenches and justyou're not going to get some
magical critique partner rightaway.
That is like, okay, this persondoesn't know what she's doing,
but I know what I'm doing andyou know, you kind of like
you've got to find that fit andgrow and work together, because
when I first started critiquing,I did not know what I was doing
(15:33):
and my critique partners werevery you know, kind I was just
like.
I'm just going to critique fromthe point of view as a reader,
as I'm trying to like learn as Igo along and that's how I
learned.
How to critique is throughtheir patients, you know, and my
patients with them as well.
So don't go into it thinkingI'm going to get like somebody
(15:55):
who's been doing this for fiveyears when I've been doing this
for three months.
You're going to have to findpeople on the same level and be
content with that and know thatyou're going to grow together.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, and you'll learn.
You know, you'll learn from howyour stuff is critiqued, how to
look at someone else's stuff.
So, yeah, you're right, it'sdefinitely a process, but it is
time consuming.
So be prepared to spend thetime and be committed to spend
the time and then you know,hopefully you'll find somebody
who's a good fit.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, and always, you know, make sure you're
sandwiching your critiques with,starting off with, you know, a
good compliment about what youliked about the writing, and
then go into the critiques anddon't get like a nitty personal
dislike, be very matter of fact.
And then, you know, finish itoff with something positive,
cause that's what we look for,those positive comments, and it
(16:47):
helps ease the pain of the restof the critiques.
So just know that how youcritique is just as important as
what you're getting.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Exactly, exactly.
People aren't going to be opento hear what you're saying if
you're, if they're feelingdefensive.
So make sure you try topractice kindness.
Did we have switching topics?
Did we have a question aboutthe two-year comp rule?
Did we want to talk about that?
We?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
did.
We had somebody message us andthey were frustrated about the
two-year comfort rule.
Is you know?
They wanted to know.
Is it's real?
Is it just one person?
And I hate to say it, but Ithink it's real.
We've heard from I think it'sreal too.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Everyone we're talking to, yeah, and what's
funny is they're like well, weheard from whoever this you know
mysterious, nebulous editor outthere that two years is really
the rule, and I think it justenough.
People hear it and have peoplesay it, and then it becomes the
expectation.
So I think if, if there's asuper compelling reason to maybe
(17:58):
go for something that'sslightly older just know that
you're.
You know it's a little bitrisky Try to stay within that
two year period.
I mean, there's so many bookspublished.
I feel like you should be ableto find something that comps to
whatever you're working on inthat two year period, and in a
lot of ways it makes it easierbecause it's a set amount of
(18:19):
titles, right, if you just sayI'm not going to look at
anything that was publishedbefore that two-year period,
well, now you have a nice smallsubset that you can investigate.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be exactly the same as
your book.
You're just trying to look atsomething that's similar in
nature, so that the person thatyou're querying or subbing to
knows that you understand whereyour book belongs in the
marketplace.
So don't don't overthink it.
You know.
Get, but don't overthink it andgo oh, mine's a cat book, but
that's, you know, that's aboutgoats, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I was just working with a book coaching client this
week looking at comps for hermanuscript, and she had given me
a list that had a lot of olderstuff on it, some of which some
books of which I just loved,right.
So I totally understood it.
But I was saying, you know,it's a good exercise to do that
(19:14):
list for yourself, because ifyour list has lots of older
books on it but there are booksthat you love, that you really
identify with and you feel likeyour book is is attached to
those, then at least it givesyou a place to start right.
So you're looking for, thenyou're searching for comps to an
existing title that you love,and that makes it easier because
(19:36):
your book is not out there yet.
So it's not like you can say,hey, internet, find me comps to
my unpublished manuscript,because that's going to get you
nothing.
But if you're saying, hey,internet, give me comps to, I
don't know, station 11, it'sgoing to give you comps and then
you're going to narrow it downto the new ones and then you're
(19:57):
going to see if those fit yourneeds.
So I think the ones that you'veidentified that are older, that
you love, don't don't dismissthem.
You're going to use those tohelp.
Kind of call your your morepresent list.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Make sure they're.
They're books that aren't soobscure that the editor is going
to be like I've never evenheard of this before.
You know it's.
You know you you've got to findone that did.
You know that relatively wellin the marketplace.
That will justify where youwant to be.
So don't get some.
I don't know.
I can't think of anythingobscure.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That is a super important point.
This is about pitching yourproduct, and you're not going to
pitch your product by comparingit to something that didn't do
well.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Or that did like crazy.
Well, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
And honestly, if you want to include something that
did like hit it out of the park,go ahead, but make sure there's
others there to balance it.
You know the things that didwell enough to justify this
publisher picking up your bookand publishing it.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Right, yeah, I mean, I think there was always that
kind of ongoing joke that youknow, and you're not the next,
you know, james Patterson, orwhatever you know.
You just got to like, bring itback a little bit and not don't
go too crazy.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Don't have delusions of grandeur.
Is it real?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Maybe you are, I mean .
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I hope you are.
I hope you're the next JamesPatterson.
More power to you, That'd begreat.
Yeah, so all right, we covereda lot.
We covered how to save your dogin the instant that they eat a
lot of cupcakes.
We have covered the critiquepartner versus beta reader and
we've covered comps.
I feel like our work is donehere, so that's a good day.
(21:53):
All right, listeners, we areback with episode 38 on October
28.
That's a lot of eights.
We're talking to literary agentAmy Nielsen, and if you want to
know what agents are thinkingand talking about and we know
you all do please join us forthat one.
So until then, our lovelylisteners, happy reading,
(22:16):
writing and listening.
Bye, Lisa, Bye, Beth, Bye guys.
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmidt
and we're the co-hosts ofWriters with Wrinkles.
This is season three, episode37.
And today we're answeringquestions.
Quick note on how to submitVisit our website for the link
Text from the podcast notes.
Yell really loudly across timezones.
We will hear you and I will putall this in the podcast notes
(00:22):
so when that burning questionthat keeps you up all night, you
want to send it to us.
This will make it super easy.
What's going on, lisa, beforewe get into the questions,
what's happening in youruniverse other than your dog
trying to kill himself by eating27 chocolate cupcakes?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh my God, this is a public service announcement.
My dog, barley and anybody whoknows me knows that Barley is a
little bit of a nightmare.
He's a black lab, he's alwaysin trouble.
He's eaten all my favoritefoods.
He is constantly doingsomething naughty, and the other
day I'd got 12 of those littlemini chocolate cupcakes and I
(01:08):
was going to bed and all of asudden I heard this weird
crunching noise.
I'm like what is that?
When I walked over and barleywas chewing on the remains of a
plastic container that housedthose cupcakes and so I went in
and you know he's been known tograb stuff from various places,
but they, they got left out andstruck in by a guest and he ate
(01:32):
like nine of them, and so allpandemonium broke out.
But the good news not the goodnews, I mean the good news is
he's fine, but there is a um, apoison hotline for dogs that you
can call and they literallywill.
They literally will ask you howmuch he weighed, how many
chocolate cupcakes, what was thebrand, and they look up
(01:52):
everything.
They had the brand in there,they had everything, and then
they came back within a fewminutes and he's like well, he
just had a good day.
He's going to have an upsettummy, but otherwise so they're
like watching him all night.
But it was really scary.
But the good news is, I mean,that's an amazing thing that you
can call and and tap into.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I had no idea that was even a thing, like I had
never heard of that until youmentioned it and I was like, wow
, that's cool, because you canknow whether or not this is like
okay, we have to bring this dogto the emergency vet or
whatever, or okay, he's gonna befine.
He's just like you know now,has a taste for cupcakes and is
(02:35):
a danger around sweets.
I think the takeaway is that ifthere are cupcakes in your
house, you must eat themyourself before you go to bed.
Right?
Do not leave cupcakesunattended for any amount of
time.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I got more cupcakes and this time I got vanilla and
I'm like more chocolate cupcakesfor you guys, cause I don't eat
them, but I'm just like youguys are done.
You're cut off for a while.
I've you know my poor son, Ithought you know he was
traumatized and my husband andson, while I was calling the
poison hotline, were juststaring at me Like right right,
work your magic mom, make this,make this okay.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, that was great, but at least if they're vanilla
, then it's just a sugar highand you know, it really seems
like he's always on a sugar high, so you might not even notice.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
He is crazy.
He is crazy.
The other thing I donated aprize it was a kidlit writing
contest and one of the prizes Idonated was Heart and Souls copy
of Heart and Souls.
But then to critique somebody'sfirst 10 pages, and so somebody
sent them over this gal Hannah,and it was.
You know those times whenyou're reading something and you
(03:39):
get those little goosebumps.
This was such a clever idea.
Her pitch, like.
I read the pitch and I was likeif I was an editor I would buy
it.
On the pitch itself it was sogood.
And then I read the first 10pages and it was so clever and
so well-written.
I just was like this is gettingpicked up.
I mean, I haven't read the restof it, obviously, but if it's
(04:02):
as good as those first 10 pages,read the rest of it.
Obviously, but if it's as goodas those first 10 pages, this
book.
I mark my words right now firstround, it will be get bought or
it will go to auction.
Does she have an agent already?
Yeah, you know who our agent isCaitlin Sanchez.
Oh great.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Awesome.
Look at these connections inthe world it was just so funny.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I'm like, of course you know, and I just I read it
and I had nothing for her.
I read, just so funny.
I'm like, of course you know,and I just I read it and I I had
nothing, for I read it fourtimes Cause I was like I'm
supposed to be critiquing it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
You're like you get an A plus and a gold star.
That's what I said.
I'm like I read it four times.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I let it sit for two days, I went back to it and I
just I couldn't find anythingwrong with it.
And then, you know, I realizedCaitlin was her agent.
I'm like, of course, caitlin'salready, you know, gone through
it, that's actually really cool.
Oh my God, it's so good, sogood.
I can hardly wait to be holdinga copy of that book in my hands
(04:57):
.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I look forward to that moment.
That is awesome.
We have some questions from allyou listeners out there who are
, you know, trying to find apath through the publishing
universe, and we're here to help.
So what do we have teed uptoday?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
We had some really good questions from one of our
listeners that is starting thebeta process, trying to find
critique partners, and she hadsome very specific questions and
I don't know if we can use hername.
I never know, you know.
Let's not Okay, so why don'tyou throw out the first question
and then we'll go from there?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So the first question was what is the difference
between a beta reader and acritique partner?
And that's actually a reallygood question, right?
Because I don't think we'veever talked about that in any
capacity before and we'vedefinitely talked about beta
readers and talked aboutcritique partners.
But the difference is primarilythat a beta reader is just that
(06:01):
a reader.
So what you're trying to findwhen your manuscript is done and
you've revised and you've madeit as good as you can make it
and you're ready for some readerfeedback.
So the beta reader is somebodywho fits your definition of
ideal reader.
So, for example, say, you'rewriting a rom-com and it
(06:24):
features a 30-something in anurban environment and you know
people who.
That's how they describe theirfavorite books.
You know, I want a rom-com thattakes place in a city and I
want the characters to be intheir early 30s, I want them to
be out in the world, not tooyoung but not old yet, like
(06:48):
that's what somebody loves,that's who you want to read your
manuscript and you want to givethem a specific set of
questions to go along with theirread.
But it's not technical writingstuff, it's reader reaction
stuff.
So you'd say were you excitedto turn the page?
Did you feel like you connectedwith the main character, did
(07:11):
you like the story, did you likethe setting, things like that.
But you're not looking fortechnical writing feedback.
You're looking for readerreaction.
That's your beta reader, yourcritique partner, on the other
hand.
That's your beta reader, yourcritique partner, on the other
hand.
Oh, and beta readers don't haveto be and probably shouldn't be
writers, because you really arejust looking for a reader
perspective and most readers arenot writers.
(07:32):
But your critique partnershould be a writer, somebody
who's in the trenches with you.
Maybe you're in the same place,maybe they're behind or ahead
of you, it doesn't matter, butthey're the people who you are
trying to get writer advice from.
So that's going to be much moretechnical and writerly rather
than reader.
(07:53):
Does that make sense?
Makes?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
sense to me.
Maybe I'll do that next time.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Well, I think sometimes we confuse the two and
if you're asking somebody toread, you're asking for a
different set of skills to bebrought to bear on the read.
And I think sometimes feelingsget hurt because we ask critique
partners to be readers and theywant to give us technical
(08:25):
advice and really we just wantto know did you like the book?
Did you keep turning the pages?
Did you finish?
Were you happy to finish?
Were you thinking about it,which is different than them
saying you know the ending ofchapter one.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I feel like you're losing the arc and you need to
connect back to this thing yousaid before, like the very
detailed sort of writerly stuff,right, and I think sometimes if
(09:04):
we ask somebody to read andthey react as a writer, then we
get our feelings hurt becausethey're like yeah, yeah, you
have problems where reallyyou're like, do you like it or
do you not like it?
And I think adding onto that is, with your beta readers, don't
go to family and that's just.
I know a lot of people tend tolike, oh, I'm going to give it
to my mom or sister or whatever.
You know, family has a tendencynot to be honest because they
love you and they're like Ooh,it's great, it's awesome.
(09:25):
So it really go outside yourfamily.
That's like the biggest thing,Don't that's?
You're not going to get, youknow, objective feedback from a
family member.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And if you put them in a weird position too, because
you're asking them to criticizeyou and that may be something
they're very uncomfortable doing.
So you're really just wastingeverybody's time by doing it.
Yeah, and it makes for anawkward Thanksgiving, Totally
Cause you're like you hated mybook, Ergo you hate me.
Cause you know, writers aresensitive, so we overreact to
(09:57):
stuff.
So I think avoiding family forreading or writing advice unless
you happen to be, you know, theMargaret Atwood's daughter or
something then like stay awayit's never going to lead to
anything good.
It doesn't help you, it doesn'thelp them, it just gets
uncomfortable and, like you said, then you're stuck at
Thanksgiving being like I kindof hate you down there at the
(10:19):
end of the table.
There's another.
There's another difference too.
So with a beta reader, you wantto find somebody who likes that
genre With a critique partner.
They don't necessarily have towrite the same stuff that you do
.
It's totally fine if they writesomething else, as long as they
(10:42):
are experienced writers and cangive you writerly advice.
Like I, I can develop, mental,edit any genre.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat I am a reader of that genre
.
You know what I mean.
So, like you're, you're lookingat totally different skills for
both.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, the other thing this listener wanted to know
was where do you find thesecritique partners?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
History critique partner floating around in the
universe.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
And that's.
You know, that's a really goodquestion and I think even when
you feel like you've found them,you may not have found the
right fit the first couple oftimes.
And it took me, you know, ittook me a little bit and it
wasn't like my critique partnerswere bad, it's just we were on
different pages and you know, wedeveloped as things changed as
we, as we moved along.
(11:31):
But I found my critiquepartners through SCBWI, which is
a professional organization,and I found them at the very
first meeting I attended.
I literally sat down at thetable with them and that's how I
found them.
So you may not be that luckythat if you wander into a room
and they stumble into yourlittle space right there.
(11:53):
But there are so many differentwriting groups out there,
whether you find them onFacebook.
I know on Facebook there wasalso.
There's like a Kidlet 411, andI'm just being very
hyper-specific with KidletKidlet 411, there's, like you
know, people finding critiquegroups there you can find.
So, whatever genre you're in,there's always organizations
(12:15):
that you know.
There's some that are free tojoin, some that you know may
have a fee to join, but myadvice would be to go find that
organization that fits yourwriting, where you're at, and
you will find critique partners,whether it's through their
Facebook group or through theirchat boards or whatever.
That's the route I would go.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Also keep in mind that it's okay to change if
somebody's critiquing isn'thelpful to you.
Like you should never come awayfeeling bad after they've given
you criticism.
Like the criticism should behelpful, it should be
constructive and it should giveyou a path forward.
If it's making you feel bad,that's not a good fit.
(12:59):
That's not what this is about.
This is about helping you getfrom point A to point B and if
you're stuck in the middle justfeeling bad about your writing
or feeling bad about yourself orwhatever, just move on.
It's totally fine.
Not everybody's going to be theright fit.
I think you mentioned theFacebook private groups.
Those are actually a reallygood place to look for critique
(13:23):
partners.
There's a lot of people outthere who are looking to trade
projects and there's so manydifferent genres represented
that you can definitely findsomebody who's writing in your
space.
I also think the number onething is, if you are in a
professional organization likeSCBWI or Mystery Writers of
America or anything like that,that's a great place to have as
(13:45):
your initial effort, becauseit's kind of it should be
tailor-made for you.
You know they should be servingthat up.
This is a great place to connectwith people who are also
writing this type of thing.
And yeah, just be open.
Be open, remember, it's a timecommitment and if you're going
to ask somebody to read yourstuff, you are going to have to
(14:06):
read their stuff and you'regoing to have to do a good job,
so be prepared to spend the time.
If you're not prepared to spendthe time, do not start the
relationship, because it'sreally unfair for the person on
the other side to get throughyour stuff.
Give you lots of thoughtfulfeedback and then you're like,
yeah, I got nothing well, I'mcareful.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I saw this, I saw this the other day.
Somebody had posted somethingabout on on Twitter that she
felt like you know, I wouldn'tmake a difference if a published
author was critiquing my work.
Would that be bringing me up tothe next level, instead of
having the critique partnersthat I have on or that she has?
(14:49):
And so you know that's?
I don't think so.
You know, it's one of thosethings you have to start
wherever kind of you're at Likeall my critique partners in the
beginning we were allunpublished, and Catherine,
who's still my critique partnershe was unpublished.
And Catherine, who's still mycritique partner she was
unpublished and we got publishedkind of like right after each
other.
We worked up together andthat's just something.
(15:11):
When you're starting out as awriter, you have to kind of get
into the trenches and justyou're not going to get some
magical critique partner rightaway.
That is like, okay, this persondoesn't know what she's doing,
but I know what I'm doing andyou know, you kind of like
you've got to find that fit andgrow and work together, because
when I first started critiquing,I did not know what I was doing
(15:33):
and my critique partners werevery you know, kind I was just
like.
I'm just going to critique fromthe point of view as a reader,
as I'm trying to like learn as Igo along and that's how I
learned.
How to critique is throughtheir patients, you know, and my
patients with them as well.
So don't go into it thinkingI'm going to get like somebody
(15:55):
who's been doing this for fiveyears when I've been doing this
for three months.
You're going to have to findpeople on the same level and be
content with that and know thatyou're going to grow together.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, and you'll learn.
You know, you'll learn from howyour stuff is critiqued, how to
look at someone else's stuff.
So, yeah, you're right, it'sdefinitely a process, but it is
time consuming.
So be prepared to spend thetime and be committed to spend
the time and then you know,hopefully you'll find somebody
who's a good fit.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, and always, you know, make sure you're
sandwiching your critiques with,starting off with, you know, a
good compliment about what youliked about the writing, and
then go into the critiques anddon't get like a nitty personal
dislike, be very matter of fact.
And then, you know, finish itoff with something positive,
cause that's what we look for,those positive comments, and it
(16:47):
helps ease the pain of the restof the critiques.
So just know that how youcritique is just as important as
what you're getting.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Exactly, exactly.
People aren't going to be opento hear what you're saying if
you're, if they're feelingdefensive.
So make sure you try topractice kindness.
Did we have switching topics?
Did we have a question aboutthe two-year comp rule?
Did we want to talk about that?
We?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
did.
We had somebody message us andthey were frustrated about the
two-year comfort rule.
Is you know?
They wanted to know.
Is it's real?
Is it just one person?
And I hate to say it, but Ithink it's real.
We've heard from I think it'sreal too.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Everyone we're talking to, yeah, and what's
funny is they're like well, weheard from whoever this you know
mysterious, nebulous editor outthere that two years is really
the rule, and I think it justenough.
People hear it and have peoplesay it, and then it becomes the
expectation.
So I think if, if there's asuper compelling reason to maybe
(17:58):
go for something that'sslightly older just know that
you're.
You know it's a little bitrisky Try to stay within that
two year period.
I mean, there's so many bookspublished.
I feel like you should be ableto find something that comps to
whatever you're working on inthat two year period, and in a
lot of ways it makes it easierbecause it's a set amount of
(18:19):
titles, right, if you just sayI'm not going to look at
anything that was publishedbefore that two-year period,
well, now you have a nice smallsubset that you can investigate.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be exactly the same as
your book.
You're just trying to look atsomething that's similar in
nature, so that the person thatyou're querying or subbing to
knows that you understand whereyour book belongs in the
marketplace.
So don't don't overthink it.
You know.
Get, but don't overthink it andgo oh, mine's a cat book, but
that's, you know, that's aboutgoats, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I was just working with a book coaching client this
week looking at comps for hermanuscript, and she had given me
a list that had a lot of olderstuff on it, some of which some
books of which I just loved,right.
So I totally understood it.
But I was saying, you know,it's a good exercise to do that
(19:14):
list for yourself, because ifyour list has lots of older
books on it but there are booksthat you love, that you really
identify with and you feel likeyour book is is attached to
those, then at least it givesyou a place to start right.
So you're looking for, thenyou're searching for comps to an
existing title that you love,and that makes it easier because
(19:36):
your book is not out there yet.
So it's not like you can say,hey, internet, find me comps to
my unpublished manuscript,because that's going to get you
nothing.
But if you're saying, hey,internet, give me comps to, I
don't know, station 11, it'sgoing to give you comps and then
you're going to narrow it downto the new ones and then you're
(19:57):
going to see if those fit yourneeds.
So I think the ones that you'veidentified that are older, that
you love, don't don't dismissthem.
You're going to use those tohelp.
Kind of call your your morepresent list.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Make sure they're.
They're books that aren't soobscure that the editor is going
to be like I've never evenheard of this before.
You know it's.
You know you you've got to findone that did.
You know that relatively wellin the marketplace.
That will justify where youwant to be.
So don't get some.
I don't know.
I can't think of anythingobscure.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That is a super important point.
This is about pitching yourproduct, and you're not going to
pitch your product by comparingit to something that didn't do
well.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Or that did like crazy.
Well, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
And honestly, if you want to include something that
did like hit it out of the park,go ahead, but make sure there's
others there to balance it.
You know the things that didwell enough to justify this
publisher picking up your bookand publishing it.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Right, yeah, I mean, I think there was always that
kind of ongoing joke that youknow, and you're not the next,
you know, james Patterson, orwhatever you know.
You just got to like, bring itback a little bit and not don't
go too crazy.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Don't have delusions of grandeur.
Is it real?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Maybe you are, I mean .
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I hope you are.
I hope you're the next JamesPatterson.
More power to you, That'd begreat.
Yeah, so all right, we covereda lot.
We covered how to save your dogin the instant that they eat a
lot of cupcakes.
We have covered the critiquepartner versus beta reader and
we've covered comps.
I feel like our work is donehere, so that's a good day.
(21:53):
All right, listeners, we areback with episode 38 on October
28.
That's a lot of eights.
We're talking to literary agentAmy Nielsen, and if you want to
know what agents are thinkingand talking about and we know
you all do please join us forthat one.
So until then, our lovelylisteners, happy reading,
(22:16):
writing and listening.
Bye, Lisa, Bye, Beth, Bye guys.
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