May 20, 2024 • 35 mins
This episode features co-host Lisa Schmid discussing her upcoming middle-grade novel "Hart & Souls." The focus is on the challenges of writing a second novel, known as the sophomore slump, and the unique pressures and expectations that come with it.
Key Discussion Points:
1. Introduction to "Hart & Souls"
- Lisa introduces her novel about Stix Hart, a sixth-grader dealing with anxiety from past bullying. He meets three ghosts with unresolved issues and helps them move on.
2. The Sophomore Slump
- Beth and Lisa discuss the difficulties of writing a second novel and the pressures that come with following up a debut success.
3. Inspiration Behind the Story
- Lisa shares a personal story about her son’s middle school experience and how an encounter with a troubled bully inspired "Hart & Souls."
4. Middle-Grade Writing
- The importance of making books accessible, fun, and educational without being preachy. Lisa balances serious issues with an engaging narrative.
5. Lessons from the First Novel
- Lisa reflects on the lessons learned from her debut, "Olly Oxley and the Ghost," and how they influenced her approach to her second novel.
6. Real-Life Issues in Fiction
- Addressing topics like bullying, anxiety, LGBTQ+ issues, parental abuse, and racism in middle-grade fiction. Lisa highlights the importance of reflecting real-life struggles in a relatable way.
7. Writing Process and Craft
- The challenges of creating multiple story arcs and weaving them together. Lisa emphasizes the importance of reading across genres to improve writing craft.
8. Advice for Aspiring Authors
- Tips for those starting their second novel, including changing the point of view to ensure distinct characters and stories.
This episode provides a deep dive into the creative process behind "Hart & Souls," highlighting the challenges and triumphs of writing a second novel. Lisa Schmid's insights offer valuable lessons for aspiring authors and middle-grade enthusiasts.
Listeners are encouraged to pre-order 'Hart & Souls' and attend Lisa's book launch on July 27th at Ruby's Books in Folsom, where she will be in conversation with Beth McMullen. Additionally, Lisa will be at the ALA conference in San Diego on June 29th and 30th, signing books and participating in a panel discussion.
Links Mentioned:
- Pre Order Hart & Souls
- Ruby's Books
- ALA Conference
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmid,
and we're the co-hosts ofWriters with Wrinkles.
Welcome back.
This is season three, episode21.
And today we are doingsomething extra special in that
one of us and Tint, not me is inthe hot seat, and that is Lisa.
She has a new middle gradenovel, heart and Souls, coming
out in July, which we are superexcited about here.
(00:22):
Of course, if you want to seethis absolutely gorgeous book,
we'll post pictures of it on oursocials.
But also I've been thinking alot about published authors and
what we call the sophomore slump.
We know many authors whopublish a debut and think, yay,
I'm in the club.
But in many ways the secondnovel is harder to write and to
(00:43):
publish.
I remember being so surprisedby this.
They say that your first booksells your second.
But what happens when you'repast that debut glow?
The sophomore novel comes withits own set of myths and
pressures and intenseexpectations, yours and others.
So whether you smashed it withyour first book or simply
learned valuable lessons from it, the second book is often seen
(01:06):
as a proving ground for writersand for readers.
So today we're putting thesequestions to Lisa, whose second
novel is still very fresh in hermind and we're going to get
some answers.
Are you ready, lisa?
I'm ready, okay, so before wejump into like the nitty gritty,
I want you to take a minute andtell us all about the
forthcoming novel.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you.
I'm super excited, of course,about this novel.
It's Heart and Souls and it'sabout young boy Sticks Heart,
who is starting sixth grade, newmiddle school student, and he
is dealing with some residualanxiety, or this lingering
(01:47):
anxiety, over an incident thathappened in third grade and it
was a bullying incident, and itreally it weighs heavily on his
mind as he moves into this newschool that's much bigger and
has a lot more kids to deal with.
And so as he enters his firstday, he just happens to meet
(02:07):
three new kids who all seemdifferent in their own ways, but
they turn out to be ghosts andthey are stuck in middle school
because they have unresolvedissues.
And these issues need to beresolved by Sticks because he's
the only person who can see themto help them move on.
(02:28):
And by helping them move on orby helping them resolve their
issues, he resolves his own andof course he can he can move on
himself.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I I, of course, have read this book, so you know I'm
I'm speaking from that point ofview what I love, one of the
many things I love about that.
First of all, I love yourwriting is so accessible to the
young people who are going to bereading this book.
I know it's hard to read amiddle grade book as an adult
and not bring your adult baggageto it.
(03:00):
But if you put yourself in theposition of a 12 year old or a
or a 10-year-old reading thisbook, it's so accessible to them
, it's fun, it's funny, it'seasy to read.
This particular novel has agorgeous set of illustrations
throughout, so it's in thatsweet spot not quite a graphic
novel, but much more illustratedthan a regular old middle grade
(03:23):
novel, which I think kidsreally love.
I love that about it.
But I also feel like you dealwith heavy, difficult,
complicated topics in a verydeft and smooth way so that you
don't, as the reader, realizethat you are being educated
almost about this type ofanxiety and the impact that it
(03:46):
can have.
When you look at the incitingincident in third grade for Styx
, you're like oh yeah, okay, youknow bullying happens, blah,
blah, blah.
But we understand the long kindof tendrils of the effect of
that, by traveling through thisexperience with him and helping
the ghost, which I think not allmiddle grade novels rise to
(04:08):
this level.
So I think it's.
It's exceptional in that way.
I also want to ask you aquestion, and this is really
we're doing a little prep forwhen you go, you know, on tour
and to conferences and to allthe interviews that will be
surrounding this book and itslaunch in July, you will be
asked the following question.
So I'm going to ask it firstwhat is the little nugget or
(04:30):
seed or moment that you werelike, yeah, I got to write this
book?
What was the spark for Heartand Souls?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
It was a really interesting.
It was an interesting moment.
I was actually my son was insixth grade and he had started,
you know, he went from a smallelementary school to a big
middle school and it wasoverwhelming and he had his own
set of anxiety that came with it.
Of course, you know all theyall do.
You know all sixth graders do,cause you're like you know this
(05:01):
is, this is a lot, but it justso happened there was a kid at
this, at this middle school thatwas kind of like tormenting
everybody.
And then, you know notnecessarily my son, but just
like you know, you would sitdown at like a soccer game and
all the moms would be talkingabout this one kid and the stuff
that he was doing was so liketextbook bullying, you know
(05:25):
smashing ketchup on somebody'shead, headbutting him in the
cafeteria, just like stuff thatyou're just like, wow, this guy
is just out tormenting everybodyand like all the kids were
afraid of him, like what's thiskid going to do?
And I saw him.
I knew who he was.
You know that somebody hadpointed him out to me one day
(05:45):
and I was like, oh, there's that.
You know, there's that kid.
It's like terrorizing themiddle school and I saw him at
Target.
I was there just find somethingfor Ollie for his middle school
experience, like a school danceor something.
And as I was walking in the doorI see this kid and he's pacing
back and forth in front of likeby the, where the shopping carts
(06:09):
are, and he was crying and Icould see he still had a school
backpack on and that, you know,it was obvious to me what had
happened.
He hadn't been picked up atschool and he had walked to
target and so I went in and Ikind of listened in on the call
to make sure he was okay and hewas crying.
He was like where are you?
I didn't know where else to go.
I'm not allowed.
(06:30):
You know, you can't stay onschool grounds.
And he was just scared and I waslike, oh my God, you know,
there is a backstory that wealways, you know, in the moment
of hearing about these kids,that we can forget, even though
we know that there's something.
And I've always told you know,my son, that if somebody is mean
to you it has nothing to dowith you.
There is a struggle going on intheir life and they're, you
(06:53):
know, projecting it or becausewhatever is going on at home.
And so it was just a reallystark reminder of that.
And so I was walking throughthe store, the whole, like the
concept came to me, the titlecame to me right away, at my
heart and souls, like I'm goingto write a story about, like
these three kids that aretrapped in middle school, but
(07:14):
I'm going to give a backstory.
And this kid who, like, sparkedthis idea, he's going to be one
of the main characters.
He's a secondary character, butI want to give his backstory.
And so then I had to come upwith backstories for these two
other kids that you know weregoing to be ghosts.
But I, literally, by the time Igot to the car, I kind of
(07:36):
penciled it out in my phone whatI was going to end or begin and
end.
I knew, and I always know, thatI know the beginning and the
end and that you know how therest played beginning and the
end and that you know how therest played out.
Was was a different.
It's a different beast.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That is something to be envied.
I think that you, that you knowthe beginning and the end, most
people are like I know what I'mwriting toward, but I don't
know where to start, or I havemy beginning, but I don't know
where I'm going.
So I think that that must havemade it.
Actually, I know that youweren't always having fun
(08:10):
writing this, but it makes thepath a little clearer.
Okay, so that's the book.
Everybody, go pre-order itplease.
Right now, we'll even pause for10 seconds for you to go and
order the book.
This is the pause.
Okay, good, you're done.
All right, what lessons did youlearn writing Olly Oxley and
(08:31):
the Ghost, which is your firstmiddle grade novel that you
applied to writing art and souls, because there are always
lessons learned in that firstbook.
And you say to yourself alongthe way okay, next time I'm not
going to do this or that, or I'mgoing to do this other thing.
What were those lessons thatyou learned between one and two?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
There was some big lessons.
When I was writing Polyoxy andthe Ghost, my son was in
elementary school and he wasvery young and so I didn't have
that like current middle gradekind of experience.
I was still in the likekindergarten, first grade
adorable, my God, he's so sweetand all the kids are so sweet.
(09:10):
I only had my old experiencesto deal with, to tap into, which
were good.
I wrote some of what I couldremember, like those feelings
and stuff.
But I was also really afraid tobecause I was dealing, dealing
with it from the perspective oflike kind of through all these
(09:30):
eyes.
Like you know, he was a littlekid, like I was around
elementary school kids and so Iwas.
I was afraid to kind of digdeep.
You know what I mean.
It was like a very lightheartedstory, which was fine.
You know it was perfect forthat book because it's very much
a lower middle grade.
I remember in the first chapterI wrote something and it's about
(09:51):
Olly Oxley's, about a kid whomoves all the time and he's just
really sick of moving and he'sangry and you know he's not
happy that.
You know he's always likechanging up schools and having
to make new friends, changing upschools and having to make new
friends.
And one line I wrote was movingsocks.
And I sat there like do I wantto say the word socks?
(10:13):
Like I really toyed with it,like it was some horrible you
know swear word that you know,my God, it's so shocking and I
left it in.
But I was still so uncomfortablewith it.
When I read that first chapterout loud to kids I always
changed the word to stinks, likemoving stinks.
It was like that's where mybrain was at Cause.
My brain was like with Ollie inelementary school, and so I was
(10:37):
afraid to you know, I just wasafraid to go any further than
that, and so I so I look back onthat and laugh.
You know now that I, you know,after being around middle school
kids, I'm like, oh my God notto mention the high school kids
where you're like.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I am scandalized by what you're saying right now.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I mean, I I'll never forget the first time I had, you
know, all these middle schoolfriends that you know they'd
grown, they'd grown up around me, you know, and there was this
one kid I don't want to say hisname, but he was, they were.
He was the really quiet kid andI was.
He was in the back of my carand I was driving them to the
first little middle school danceand he really spoke.
(11:22):
I mean, he was so crying, shy,and then all of a sudden he's on
his phone, they're looking atsomething, and the first word
out of his mouth is the F-bomband he's talking about some game
.
And I'm like, oh my God, he'swearing my car.
So shocking to me.
I was just like they hadtotally forgot that there was a
(11:45):
parental unit driving them.
They were so like consumed withtheir little game and I just
that literally changed my wholeperspective of, like middle
school kids.
I was like, okay, it's on,things are different, you can
tell that between Olly Oxley andHeart and Souls.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I think what you said about feeling like you had
permission to go deeper intothat middle school kid brain you
can tell that because OllyOxley I remember most about it
and it's been a few years sinceI've read it is that it's funny,
like you're laughing and it itis very light-hearted, like you
(12:23):
said, like anybody can read itand get through and have a good
experience, like it's fun,doesn't force you to look at
things that are a little bituncomfortable, perhaps where
this one is looking at anxiety,which so many kids suffer from
now, especially post pandemic, Ithink, definitely heightened
that in school age kids.
So, yeah, you can tell thatyou've done more work and you
(12:48):
have more craft and those things.
Let you do things that youcouldn't do in Alioxy, which is
super fun for the reader butalso probably pretty good on the
writing side, where you're likeoh yeah, I got this.
No big deal.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, it was.
It was fun.
I mean I had I had basicallyfour characters to like the
backstories to and give likesome really complex issues and I
went there.
I was like, you know, there's I, there's a lot there's, you
know, a parent that dies.
That, you know, impacts a childthere's, you know there's LGBTQ
(13:23):
issues there's, you know someparent that was a kind of
abusive, there's racism there.
You know, I I kind of reallywas just like taking and these
are like everything I talkedabout I were things I had
witnessed myself.
Real life.
You're reflecting a slice ofreal life.
Yeah, I mean, I remember therewas, you know, I used this in
(13:45):
one scene.
I was at a basketball game onetime and there was two parents
that they had the bizarre notionthat their children were going
to end up in the NBA and theywere so just like abusive from
the sidelines towards their kids.
And I remember one time thisguy, this dad, went up and
grabbed his son by the ear offthe kid in the middle of the
(14:07):
court and dragged him to theside and was yelling at him
about your you know, you'llnever make the NBA playing like
that.
And I was just watching thisand the kid was like 11.
And I'm like what is happeningand so is from a parent's point
of view I saw things that werejust shocking to my senses and
my being.
And seeing what kids aredealing with out there is just
(14:30):
in in full view, was shocking.
And I use that scene in mystory because I'm like that is
real life crap that these kidsdeal with.
You know these intensesituations.
And then you know there wasracism that I threw in there and
I didn't, I didn't want to tellthat story, I wasn't, I really
(14:51):
didn't know how to touch on thatone, but I threw it in there
and there was.
I went to a parent meeting atmiddle school and they were
talking, you know all theparents in there, their kids
were being targeted and beingcalled immigrants and to go home
.
And you know there was therewas like a big time, like after,
(15:12):
like after the election, whereyou know racism was like open.
It was so suddenly okay to like, not suddenly, but it was even
more prevalent than it ever hadbeen before and I was like all
these I was talking to, allthese parents and their kids
were just being targeted and itwas horrible.
And so I threw that in there,and so I just I kept hearing
(15:33):
real life situations that I waslike I'm throwing it into this
book and if anybody asked me totake it out, you know it would
have been hard now.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, but again I point back to what I said before
about the way that you do it is.
It's never being hit over thehead, as in.
I'm talking about an issue andyou feel the author preaching to
you.
Do you know how you read thatin some books, where you feel
like the author's giving you alecture?
What Lisa does so well, and whyyou should all buy this book,
is because it's woven in in sucha natural way that it's just
(16:05):
part of the story.
It's part of the environmentand you see and feel for the
children who are experiencingthe effects of this.
It never feels preachy, whichdefinitely happens in some
middle grade books that I canthink of a bunch off the top of
my head where I feel like, okay,now I feel the author talking
to me, rather than thestorytelling itself, which you
(16:27):
do exceptionally well in thisbook.
So what?
This is like my favoritequestion.
So what were the challengesunique to writing a second novel
that you did not expect?
So you're sitting there writingAli Oxley and you're like, yay,
awesome.
And then you get to Heart andSouls and you're like, wait a
(16:48):
minute, this is not what Ithought was going to happen.
What were some of thosechallenges?
Or one?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And I just I feel bad for you because you've
experienced them all with mealong the road.
There's not saying thateverybody has one book in them,
you know, and I you know whetherthat's true or not, I don't
know.
You know, I think everybody hasa book idea that they want.
You know that they havepercolating in their brain.
I mean, how many times have youhas somebody said like, oh, I
(17:14):
want to write this book?
And you're like, okay, you know, it just is Right.
You're like that's nice, yeah,that's nice.
There's not many of us thatactually sit down and do it,
which is, you know, the crazything.
And I think everybody has liketheir book of their hearts, like
that one, that story that theyjust want.
They feel compelled to sit downand just like put on paper.
(17:37):
And you know, if it's something, it's tapping into a life
experience, a trauma that we'reworking through.
Like when I was writing, allhonestly, I moved around all the
time when I was a kid, so thatwas really easy for me to write
a story about that and lookthrough my angst and my anger,
and I don't know if it reallyhelped.
Certainly, in the moment feltreally good writing it, so I
(18:01):
kind of tapped into that.
You know that feeling and so Ikind of knew like this I I built
my story around that that youknow trauma of my childhood, and
so that was that story, and sowhen you come to the second book
, you don't have that book ofyour heart anymore.
It's like suddenly you have tofind like a story just out there
(18:24):
that you've never evenconceptualized.
It's not something you'vethought about your whole life.
It's like, oh my God, I have tolike come up with an idea and
that's really big.
And I remember throwing somecrazy teeth at you and I just
like nothing was coming to meand I like it took me a while,
like I have.
(18:45):
So I have so much respect forauthors who can just jump from
story to story and that's why Idon't and I know you get mad at
me for saying this, but I don'tthink of myself as a real author
, like I think of myself assomebody who's like just
scrapping to like find a storyand then that's called imposter
syndrome.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I know you do splash.
You're a real author.
I know it's hard for you todigest, but it's true.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I know, and it's just one of those things like I
don't have that ability to justjump from story to story.
You know, just it's not.
It's not how I work, it's nothow I'm built, and so it took me
a long time to find this story.
But when it finally did, I waslike, okay, I think I've got the
story.
And then I did the crazy thingof having, you know, four story
(19:33):
arcs that I had to find a way toweave together and make, make
it all make sense, like I don'tknow why I went so big and hard
the second time.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Go big, or go home, isn't that what they say?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And it just it almost broke my brain.
I'm like, how am I going tomake this all work together?
And my writing is very there'sa lot of serendipity with the
things, my process, you know,I'll throw something in and all
of a sudden I'm just like, ohyeah, I can use that, you know,
and it just kind of works itselfout.
I write chapter by chapter andit's it's still shocking to me
(20:07):
that I was able to make allthese characters come together
and make sense, and make sensefor Styx Hart, who's the main
character at the end, and drivethem to that final moment, which
is where I wanted to end thestory.
So I think that's the biggestthing is like finding that
second story is shockingly hard,you know, because, again, that
(20:31):
first story is the story of yourheart and then the second story
is not the story of your heart.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
It's the story of your heart and soul.
Is what you're trying to say.
Yeah, nice, that was prettygood, right, and I'm not good at
those wordplay things as youare.
I think there's lots of truthin that.
There's a pressure on thesophomore effort that you just
didn't have when you're writingyour first book.
Because you're writing yourfirst book free and unencumbered
(21:00):
.
For the most part, you haven'tsold it.
It can take five years, nobodycares.
Do you know what I mean?
You're very free in writing it.
And then the second book.
Suddenly you have these outsidepressures, whether you're
working on a deadline, or it wasa two book deal and you're
trying to fulfill that secondbook, or it's a sequel and you
suddenly didn't realize you weregoing to be writing a sequel,
(21:23):
and now it's all a big mess orwhatever it is, these outside
pressures on that novel, andit's not something that came
from a moment of okay, I thinkI'm going to write a book and I
think this is what it's going tobe about, and you've been
mulling it for however manyyears.
It's intimidating.
It's really intimidating.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
But it is intimidating and I there was a
moment where I was like I don'tthink I have it in me, but then
honestly I was.
We were out someplace, I can'tremember, and I'm like, but I
just want to still keep hangingout with Beth and be like a
writer person writing.
I won't have like my writerfriends.
You know I have all thesewriter friends now and I'm like
(22:02):
I still want to be part of thegang.
I don't want to get kicked outof the club.
I don't want to get kicked out,just write, lisa write that's a
good bumper sticker, right Lisawrite.
I like it and it was hard.
It was hard.
I remember you halfway throughjust going, ah, I don't want to
do this anymore, and you know.
(22:23):
And then you had to give me thepep talk and and then I I dug
my way out and got through it,but I think you, you start
relying in your second book moreon craft as in.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I know how to make this happen.
I might not feel it in the samevisceral way that I did with my
first book, but I know how toget from point A to point B,
because I've done all thispractice and I've done all this
writing and now I have anunderstanding of what needs to
be the foundation of this effort.
So I think that changes frombook one to two, three, four,
(22:58):
changes from book one to two,three, four, et cetera.
I'm on book 11 and I still amlike what am I doing?
I don't, you know, I mean, Idon't know that that feeling
ever goes away after book one.
All the rest of them are alittle shocking.
So we kind of answered this alittle bit, but I want to, I
want to put the question to youanyway.
(23:18):
So did you feel more freedom ormore constrained in book two?
Some of these reasons we talkedabout already in that, you know
, you feel like I have to keepdoing this.
I've done it once, but I don'thave that story that I am
extremely passionate about orwhatever.
So what did you?
How would you answer that as?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
far as constraints, I just I had zero constraints.
I was in that sense of like I'mthrowing everything at this
book and I'm really.
I'm like you, I don't likebooks that feel preachy and you
can, like you said, you can feelit, and so I didn't want to
pull that back at all, and so II just was like I'm putting it
(24:03):
all in there and if somebodydoesn't like it, and if a reader
doesn't like it, or if there's,you know, we have all that book
banding going on and all thatnonsense, and I was like I just
don't care, like I the I don'tcare hat was on my head the
whole time.
I was like I am throwing it inthere and if anybody's offended,
(24:23):
I do not care, because thesekids need to hear stories and
they need it to be told in a waythat is relatable and that's.
You know, whenever I'm writing,I'm always just trying to think
like, does this sound preachy?
Would I be irritated?
Like?
There's times when I'm readinga book, I'm like I'm irritated
by this and I'm like that's.
You know, that's my biggestthing, and so I think I just
(24:48):
there is a freedom and it's just.
You know, if I don't get, if itdoesn't get published.
It doesn't get published.
You know, I just kind of hadthat attitude of like c'est la
vie, let's, let's do this Wellit's writing without fear.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, you're just.
You know going for it andtelling the story you want to
tell and not worrying aboutwho's going to be upset by this
or concerned like this.
You know being respectful ofthe things that we want to pay
attention to creating authenticcharacters who are.
You know who makes sense in theworld that you're putting them
into and all of those things,but not worrying about.
(25:21):
You know who makes sense in theworld that you're putting them
into and all of those things,but not worrying about.
You know some parent in someplace where book banning is all
the rage is going to get upsetbecause you're not writing for
that person.
Yeah, I don't care, I thinkthat's very.
I think that's very healthy andlisteners should all be taking
notes.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Don't care, Write that on your, on your yeah, only
only especially if you'rewriting for kid lit.
It's like do you not care about, like, what a grownup thinks
Like this is?
This is where where our spaceis, like we're like here to
serve these kids, write storiesfor these kids and hopefully
make some like impact that youknow affects their life in a
(25:59):
positive way, and so that was a.
That was a really freeing thingfor me, because book one I was
all about oh, what can I say,what can I not say?
I just didn't know and I didn'thave enough experience writing
or reading contemporary books.
I was all into magic.
You know everything is was in.
You know it was ghosts andmagic.
That's everything I love toread.
(26:20):
So I didn't, I wasn't reallyaware, and that's like another
reason why I'm always tellingpeople is read, read, read.
Because I hadn't read enoughacross different genres to
really fully understand, youknow, or have a better grasp on
the craft of what I was writingin, and so now I read across,
like I read different stories,so that I can really get an
(26:42):
understanding of how to writebetter.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
This is our message that we're constantly preaching
Go read, of course.
I stayed up last night tilllike two o'clock in the morning
reading.
Don't do that, because todayI'm a little bleary eyed and the
bags under my eyes are bigenough for, like checkable
luggage.
It's pretty bad.
Okay, this is a good question.
We usually ask this question ofall of our guests in some
(27:06):
flavor or another.
What advice would you give tosomeone about to start their
second novel, whether it bemiddle grade or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Change your point of view.
Like you've just written a bookthat is, it's taken you years
to write and your brain has beenso ensconced in that story.
Find a way to change your pointof view.
Like you have to get out ofthat voice.
You have to get out of thatstory.
And I think for me, when I waswriting Heart and Souls, when I
(27:36):
first started it, I still hadthe character and the story of
Folly Oxley so ingrained in mybrain.
It was really hard to likeseparate the two and change up
my voice.
And I still like it doesn'tmatter what I write or what you
write.
Your voice is always going tobe there.
But you still have to switch upyour character in a way that it
(27:56):
doesn't sound like just anotherversion of the character that
you just finished writing.
And so that, to me, is like myword of caution is like be
careful of not carrying thatvoice over to your second story
and finding a way to change yourpoint of view and like fully
separate from the story thatyou've just written.
(28:17):
That's been you've been writingfor years.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's so, that's such a good way to put it and
it's so true.
You can be haunted by thatvoice that you had created and
you definitely don't want tojust keep writing the same
person over and over, becauseyour readers will know, you know
they want something fresh anddifferent.
Of course, in a series, you getto keep that voice, but if
you're not writing a series, bemindful of those things, as Lisa
(28:43):
just told you.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I just I remember my critic partner, Catherine, when
she had read my first couplechapters of Heart and Soul.
She's like, this sounds likeOlly Oxley.
And I was like, no, you're like, so what?
What do you mean by that?
Like, what do you mean thatlike?
What do you mean?
But it was like and she wasright, I was using some of the
same like little you know hiswordplay and stuff, and I just I
(29:08):
looked at it and I'm like, ohmy gosh, I do sound like Ollie
Oxley.
I and I needed to step back andkind of find a new like a new
personality, a new persona forthis, this kid kid, and so
that's.
You know, that was my bigchallenge, and so that's what my
, my word of warning toeverybody is like just make sure
there's like that separationand that you can find that new
(29:31):
voice for the new character byby still retaining your voice,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And I think, knowing that upfront, that it's a
possibility, if you're writingin the same genre, that if
you're just thinking about thatfrom page one, how is this going
to be its own unique character?
And I'm not going to default tothe one I wrote before that's
probably a really good thing tojust keep front and center in
your mind as you're workingthrough the beginning of your
(29:59):
second novel or third orwhatever.
It is Okay.
So before we wrap up, tell uswhere you're going to be.
I know you're at some thingsover the coming months.
Can you just tell us whereyou're going to?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
be, so I will be at.
Well, of course, I'm having mybook launch, and that is July
27th at Ruby's Books and Folsom,and I will be in conversation
with oh my gosh Beth McMullen,are you?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
kidding me?
You're going to talk to her?
Oh my God.
Well, this is our practice, youguys.
So you know, hopefully we didwell enough that I won't be.
I'm saving questions for your,for your book launch.
The hard hitting ones are forthe book launch.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
And you know what?
I have to just throw this inbecause it's so amazing.
We went to Bitsy Kemper's booklaunch over the weekend and it
was so much fun she throws likean event.
Can I just say that she putsevery single book launch I've
ever been to to shame.
I was stunned.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I was stunned by the spread right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It's better than any party I've ever thrown, I mean
any birthday party I've everthrown for, you know, my son,
yeah, like you know, crayonswith her little name on it and
like a station for the littlekids.
And then there was like astation for the big kids with,
like meaning us, with mimosasand cupcakes of all these
(31:24):
different flavors and varieties,and there was like I mean it
was insane.
And I was telling herafterwards I'm like, oh, my God,
yeah, and it was mother's day.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It was mother's day and the location where the
bookstore is it's kind of likeright in the middle of this
little town area and so tons ofpeople were just coming in,
people that were out with liketheir little kids and stuff.
Yeah, she nailed that.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
A million books and a lot of books.
Like she asked me, like whatare you going to do?
And I said, oh, I want to do alittle heart and soul, like
heart shaped cookies and ghostcookies.
And so she texted me later onshe's like all right, I'm making
them for you.
And I just thought, oh, I'veseen your home for all of you,
isn't she just the sweetest?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
That is sweet, she's lovely, and she's still like
plugged in.
You know, if you want to knowwhat's going on, she's the one
you ask yeah, okay, so you'rehaving your book launch, you are
at a.
Are you at a conference?
You're at a conference.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, and at the end this is like crazy fun.
I've always wanted to go to ALAand get invited.
So I got invited by mypublisher, andrews McNeil, and
I'm going to be.
It's in San Diego at the end ofJune, beginning of July, so the
29th and 30th I will be at ALAsigning books and doing a panel
(32:42):
discussion.
So I'm super excited about thatbecause you see the pictures
and you're just like, ooh, thatlooks so much fun.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
If you guys are going to ALA.
Put this on your agenda to showup and say hi to Lisa, and we
will remind you of these things.
I will also put them in thepodcast notes and in the blog so
you can add them to yourcalendar.
So, lisa, thank you for joiningus here at Writers with
(33:08):
Wrinkles.
You were a great guest.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Thank you, I was prepared.
I had notes.
I want everybody to know that.
Put little notes off to theside.
I'm like mess up, mess up.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
So, yeah, now you know what it's like to be
sitting on the other side ofthat.
So, listeners, please rememberto check out
writerswithwrinklesnet to follow, support and share about the
show.
You can also find all theinformation I just talked about
where Lisa's going to be, etcetera, there, and we will see
you again next week, which willbe May 27th, when we're talking
to Josh Pruitt, who is a NewYork Times and USA Today
(33:43):
bestselling author and EmmyAward winner.
He is the only human being onEarth to have written for both
Mystery Science Theater 3000 andDoctor who, and is currently
working on the widelyanticipated return of Disney's
Phineas and Ferb.
I am a huge fan of that show,so I can't wait.
There are so many things we'regoing to ask him, so please join
us for that and until then,happy reading, writing and
(34:06):
listening.
Bye Lisa, Bye Beth, Bye guys.
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmid,
and we're the co-hosts ofWriters with Wrinkles.
Welcome back.
This is season three, episode21.
And today we are doingsomething extra special in that
one of us and Tint, not me is inthe hot seat, and that is Lisa.
She has a new middle gradenovel, heart and Souls, coming
out in July, which we are superexcited about here.
(00:22):
Of course, if you want to seethis absolutely gorgeous book,
we'll post pictures of it on oursocials.
But also I've been thinking alot about published authors and
what we call the sophomore slump.
We know many authors whopublish a debut and think, yay,
I'm in the club.
But in many ways the secondnovel is harder to write and to
(00:43):
publish.
I remember being so surprisedby this.
They say that your first booksells your second.
But what happens when you'repast that debut glow?
The sophomore novel comes withits own set of myths and
pressures and intenseexpectations, yours and others.
So whether you smashed it withyour first book or simply
learned valuable lessons from it, the second book is often seen
(01:06):
as a proving ground for writersand for readers.
So today we're putting thesequestions to Lisa, whose second
novel is still very fresh in hermind and we're going to get
some answers.
Are you ready, lisa?
I'm ready, okay, so before wejump into like the nitty gritty,
I want you to take a minute andtell us all about the
forthcoming novel.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you.
I'm super excited, of course,about this novel.
It's Heart and Souls and it'sabout young boy Sticks Heart,
who is starting sixth grade, newmiddle school student, and he
is dealing with some residualanxiety, or this lingering
(01:47):
anxiety, over an incident thathappened in third grade and it
was a bullying incident, and itreally it weighs heavily on his
mind as he moves into this newschool that's much bigger and
has a lot more kids to deal with.
And so as he enters his firstday, he just happens to meet
(02:07):
three new kids who all seemdifferent in their own ways, but
they turn out to be ghosts andthey are stuck in middle school
because they have unresolvedissues.
And these issues need to beresolved by Sticks because he's
the only person who can see themto help them move on.
(02:28):
And by helping them move on orby helping them resolve their
issues, he resolves his own andof course he can he can move on
himself.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I I, of course, have read this book, so you know I'm
I'm speaking from that point ofview what I love, one of the
many things I love about that.
First of all, I love yourwriting is so accessible to the
young people who are going to bereading this book.
I know it's hard to read amiddle grade book as an adult
and not bring your adult baggageto it.
(03:00):
But if you put yourself in theposition of a 12 year old or a
or a 10-year-old reading thisbook, it's so accessible to them
, it's fun, it's funny, it'seasy to read.
This particular novel has agorgeous set of illustrations
throughout, so it's in thatsweet spot not quite a graphic
novel, but much more illustratedthan a regular old middle grade
(03:23):
novel, which I think kidsreally love.
I love that about it.
But I also feel like you dealwith heavy, difficult,
complicated topics in a verydeft and smooth way so that you
don't, as the reader, realizethat you are being educated
almost about this type ofanxiety and the impact that it
(03:46):
can have.
When you look at the incitingincident in third grade for Styx
, you're like oh yeah, okay, youknow bullying happens, blah,
blah, blah.
But we understand the long kindof tendrils of the effect of
that, by traveling through thisexperience with him and helping
the ghost, which I think not allmiddle grade novels rise to
(04:08):
this level.
So I think it's.
It's exceptional in that way.
I also want to ask you aquestion, and this is really
we're doing a little prep forwhen you go, you know, on tour
and to conferences and to allthe interviews that will be
surrounding this book and itslaunch in July, you will be
asked the following question.
So I'm going to ask it firstwhat is the little nugget or
(04:30):
seed or moment that you werelike, yeah, I got to write this
book?
What was the spark for Heartand Souls?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
It was a really interesting.
It was an interesting moment.
I was actually my son was insixth grade and he had started,
you know, he went from a smallelementary school to a big
middle school and it wasoverwhelming and he had his own
set of anxiety that came with it.
Of course, you know all theyall do.
You know all sixth graders do,cause you're like you know this
(05:01):
is, this is a lot, but it justso happened there was a kid at
this, at this middle school thatwas kind of like tormenting
everybody.
And then, you know notnecessarily my son, but just
like you know, you would sitdown at like a soccer game and
all the moms would be talkingabout this one kid and the stuff
that he was doing was so liketextbook bullying, you know
(05:25):
smashing ketchup on somebody'shead, headbutting him in the
cafeteria, just like stuff thatyou're just like, wow, this guy
is just out tormenting everybodyand like all the kids were
afraid of him, like what's thiskid going to do?
And I saw him.
I knew who he was.
You know that somebody hadpointed him out to me one day
(05:45):
and I was like, oh, there's that.
You know, there's that kid.
It's like terrorizing themiddle school and I saw him at
Target.
I was there just find somethingfor Ollie for his middle school
experience, like a school danceor something.
And as I was walking in the doorI see this kid and he's pacing
back and forth in front of likeby the, where the shopping carts
(06:09):
are, and he was crying and Icould see he still had a school
backpack on and that, you know,it was obvious to me what had
happened.
He hadn't been picked up atschool and he had walked to
target and so I went in and Ikind of listened in on the call
to make sure he was okay and hewas crying.
He was like where are you?
I didn't know where else to go.
I'm not allowed.
(06:30):
You know, you can't stay onschool grounds.
And he was just scared and I waslike, oh my God, you know,
there is a backstory that wealways, you know, in the moment
of hearing about these kids,that we can forget, even though
we know that there's something.
And I've always told you know,my son, that if somebody is mean
to you it has nothing to dowith you.
There is a struggle going on intheir life and they're, you
(06:53):
know, projecting it or becausewhatever is going on at home.
And so it was just a reallystark reminder of that.
And so I was walking throughthe store, the whole, like the
concept came to me, the titlecame to me right away, at my
heart and souls, like I'm goingto write a story about, like
these three kids that aretrapped in middle school, but
(07:14):
I'm going to give a backstory.
And this kid who, like, sparkedthis idea, he's going to be one
of the main characters.
He's a secondary character, butI want to give his backstory.
And so then I had to come upwith backstories for these two
other kids that you know weregoing to be ghosts.
But I, literally, by the time Igot to the car, I kind of
(07:36):
penciled it out in my phone whatI was going to end or begin and
end.
I knew, and I always know, thatI know the beginning and the
end and that you know how therest played beginning and the
end and that you know how therest played out.
Was was a different.
It's a different beast.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That is something to be envied.
I think that you, that you knowthe beginning and the end, most
people are like I know what I'mwriting toward, but I don't
know where to start, or I havemy beginning, but I don't know
where I'm going.
So I think that that must havemade it.
Actually, I know that youweren't always having fun
(08:10):
writing this, but it makes thepath a little clearer.
Okay, so that's the book.
Everybody, go pre-order itplease.
Right now, we'll even pause for10 seconds for you to go and
order the book.
This is the pause.
Okay, good, you're done.
All right, what lessons did youlearn writing Olly Oxley and
(08:31):
the Ghost, which is your firstmiddle grade novel that you
applied to writing art and souls, because there are always
lessons learned in that firstbook.
And you say to yourself alongthe way okay, next time I'm not
going to do this or that, or I'mgoing to do this other thing.
What were those lessons thatyou learned between one and two?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
There was some big lessons.
When I was writing Polyoxy andthe Ghost, my son was in
elementary school and he wasvery young and so I didn't have
that like current middle gradekind of experience.
I was still in the likekindergarten, first grade
adorable, my God, he's so sweetand all the kids are so sweet.
(09:10):
I only had my old experiencesto deal with, to tap into, which
were good.
I wrote some of what I couldremember, like those feelings
and stuff.
But I was also really afraid tobecause I was dealing, dealing
with it from the perspective oflike kind of through all these
(09:30):
eyes.
Like you know, he was a littlekid, like I was around
elementary school kids and so Iwas.
I was afraid to kind of digdeep.
You know what I mean.
It was like a very lightheartedstory, which was fine.
You know it was perfect forthat book because it's very much
a lower middle grade.
I remember in the first chapterI wrote something and it's about
(09:51):
Olly Oxley's, about a kid whomoves all the time and he's just
really sick of moving and he'sangry and you know he's not
happy that.
You know he's always likechanging up schools and having
to make new friends, changing upschools and having to make new
friends.
And one line I wrote was movingsocks.
And I sat there like do I wantto say the word socks?
(10:13):
Like I really toyed with it,like it was some horrible you
know swear word that you know,my God, it's so shocking and I
left it in.
But I was still so uncomfortablewith it.
When I read that first chapterout loud to kids I always
changed the word to stinks, likemoving stinks.
It was like that's where mybrain was at Cause.
My brain was like with Ollie inelementary school, and so I was
(10:37):
afraid to you know, I just wasafraid to go any further than
that, and so I so I look back onthat and laugh.
You know now that I, you know,after being around middle school
kids, I'm like, oh my God notto mention the high school kids
where you're like.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I am scandalized by what you're saying right now.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I mean, I I'll never forget the first time I had, you
know, all these middle schoolfriends that you know they'd
grown, they'd grown up around me, you know, and there was this
one kid I don't want to say hisname, but he was, they were.
He was the really quiet kid andI was.
He was in the back of my carand I was driving them to the
first little middle school danceand he really spoke.
(11:22):
I mean, he was so crying, shy,and then all of a sudden he's on
his phone, they're looking atsomething, and the first word
out of his mouth is the F-bomband he's talking about some game
.
And I'm like, oh my God, he'swearing my car.
So shocking to me.
I was just like they hadtotally forgot that there was a
(11:45):
parental unit driving them.
They were so like consumed withtheir little game and I just
that literally changed my wholeperspective of, like middle
school kids.
I was like, okay, it's on,things are different, you can
tell that between Olly Oxley andHeart and Souls.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I think what you said about feeling like you had
permission to go deeper intothat middle school kid brain you
can tell that because OllyOxley I remember most about it
and it's been a few years sinceI've read it is that it's funny,
like you're laughing and it itis very light-hearted, like you
(12:23):
said, like anybody can read itand get through and have a good
experience, like it's fun,doesn't force you to look at
things that are a little bituncomfortable, perhaps where
this one is looking at anxiety,which so many kids suffer from
now, especially post pandemic, Ithink, definitely heightened
that in school age kids.
So, yeah, you can tell thatyou've done more work and you
(12:48):
have more craft and those things.
Let you do things that youcouldn't do in Alioxy, which is
super fun for the reader butalso probably pretty good on the
writing side, where you're likeoh yeah, I got this.
No big deal.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, it was.
It was fun.
I mean I had I had basicallyfour characters to like the
backstories to and give likesome really complex issues and I
went there.
I was like, you know, there's I, there's a lot there's, you
know, a parent that dies.
That, you know, impacts a childthere's, you know there's LGBTQ
(13:23):
issues there's, you know someparent that was a kind of
abusive, there's racism there.
You know, I I kind of reallywas just like taking and these
are like everything I talkedabout I were things I had
witnessed myself.
Real life.
You're reflecting a slice ofreal life.
Yeah, I mean, I remember therewas, you know, I used this in
(13:45):
one scene.
I was at a basketball game onetime and there was two parents
that they had the bizarre notionthat their children were going
to end up in the NBA and theywere so just like abusive from
the sidelines towards their kids.
And I remember one time thisguy, this dad, went up and
grabbed his son by the ear offthe kid in the middle of the
(14:07):
court and dragged him to theside and was yelling at him
about your you know, you'llnever make the NBA playing like
that.
And I was just watching thisand the kid was like 11.
And I'm like what is happeningand so is from a parent's point
of view I saw things that werejust shocking to my senses and
my being.
And seeing what kids aredealing with out there is just
(14:30):
in in full view, was shocking.
And I use that scene in mystory because I'm like that is
real life crap that these kidsdeal with.
You know these intensesituations.
And then you know there wasracism that I threw in there and
I didn't, I didn't want to tellthat story, I wasn't, I really
(14:51):
didn't know how to touch on thatone, but I threw it in there
and there was.
I went to a parent meeting atmiddle school and they were
talking, you know all theparents in there, their kids
were being targeted and beingcalled immigrants and to go home
.
And you know there was therewas like a big time, like after,
(15:12):
like after the election, whereyou know racism was like open.
It was so suddenly okay to like, not suddenly, but it was even
more prevalent than it ever hadbeen before and I was like all
these I was talking to, allthese parents and their kids
were just being targeted and itwas horrible.
And so I threw that in there,and so I just I kept hearing
(15:33):
real life situations that I waslike I'm throwing it into this
book and if anybody asked me totake it out, you know it would
have been hard now.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, but again I point back to what I said before
about the way that you do it is.
It's never being hit over thehead, as in.
I'm talking about an issue andyou feel the author preaching to
you.
Do you know how you read thatin some books, where you feel
like the author's giving you alecture?
What Lisa does so well, and whyyou should all buy this book,
is because it's woven in in sucha natural way that it's just
(16:05):
part of the story.
It's part of the environmentand you see and feel for the
children who are experiencingthe effects of this.
It never feels preachy, whichdefinitely happens in some
middle grade books that I canthink of a bunch off the top of
my head where I feel like, okay,now I feel the author talking
to me, rather than thestorytelling itself, which you
(16:27):
do exceptionally well in thisbook.
So what?
This is like my favoritequestion.
So what were the challengesunique to writing a second novel
that you did not expect?
So you're sitting there writingAli Oxley and you're like, yay,
awesome.
And then you get to Heart andSouls and you're like, wait a
(16:48):
minute, this is not what Ithought was going to happen.
What were some of thosechallenges?
Or one?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And I just I feel bad for you because you've
experienced them all with mealong the road.
There's not saying thateverybody has one book in them,
you know, and I you know whetherthat's true or not, I don't
know.
You know, I think everybody hasa book idea that they want.
You know that they havepercolating in their brain.
I mean, how many times have youhas somebody said like, oh, I
(17:14):
want to write this book?
And you're like, okay, you know, it just is Right.
You're like that's nice, yeah,that's nice.
There's not many of us thatactually sit down and do it,
which is, you know, the crazything.
And I think everybody has liketheir book of their hearts, like
that one, that story that theyjust want.
They feel compelled to sit downand just like put on paper.
(17:37):
And you know, if it's something, it's tapping into a life
experience, a trauma that we'reworking through.
Like when I was writing, allhonestly, I moved around all the
time when I was a kid, so thatwas really easy for me to write
a story about that and lookthrough my angst and my anger,
and I don't know if it reallyhelped.
Certainly, in the moment feltreally good writing it, so I
(18:01):
kind of tapped into that.
You know that feeling and so Ikind of knew like this I I built
my story around that that youknow trauma of my childhood, and
so that was that story, and sowhen you come to the second book
, you don't have that book ofyour heart anymore.
It's like suddenly you have tofind like a story just out there
(18:24):
that you've never evenconceptualized.
It's not something you'vethought about your whole life.
It's like, oh my God, I have tolike come up with an idea and
that's really big.
And I remember throwing somecrazy teeth at you and I just
like nothing was coming to meand I like it took me a while,
like I have.
(18:45):
So I have so much respect forauthors who can just jump from
story to story and that's why Idon't and I know you get mad at
me for saying this, but I don'tthink of myself as a real author
, like I think of myself assomebody who's like just
scrapping to like find a storyand then that's called imposter
syndrome.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I know you do splash.
You're a real author.
I know it's hard for you todigest, but it's true.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I know, and it's just one of those things like I
don't have that ability to justjump from story to story.
You know, just it's not.
It's not how I work, it's nothow I'm built, and so it took me
a long time to find this story.
But when it finally did, I waslike, okay, I think I've got the
story.
And then I did the crazy thingof having, you know, four story
(19:33):
arcs that I had to find a way toweave together and make, make
it all make sense, like I don'tknow why I went so big and hard
the second time.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Go big, or go home, isn't that what they say?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And it just it almost broke my brain.
I'm like, how am I going tomake this all work together?
And my writing is very there'sa lot of serendipity with the
things, my process, you know,I'll throw something in and all
of a sudden I'm just like, ohyeah, I can use that, you know,
and it just kind of works itselfout.
I write chapter by chapter andit's it's still shocking to me
(20:07):
that I was able to make allthese characters come together
and make sense, and make sensefor Styx Hart, who's the main
character at the end, and drivethem to that final moment, which
is where I wanted to end thestory.
So I think that's the biggestthing is like finding that
second story is shockingly hard,you know, because, again, that
(20:31):
first story is the story of yourheart and then the second story
is not the story of your heart.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
It's the story of your heart and soul.
Is what you're trying to say.
Yeah, nice, that was prettygood, right, and I'm not good at
those wordplay things as youare.
I think there's lots of truthin that.
There's a pressure on thesophomore effort that you just
didn't have when you're writingyour first book.
Because you're writing yourfirst book free and unencumbered
(21:00):
.
For the most part, you haven'tsold it.
It can take five years, nobodycares.
Do you know what I mean?
You're very free in writing it.
And then the second book.
Suddenly you have these outsidepressures, whether you're
working on a deadline, or it wasa two book deal and you're
trying to fulfill that secondbook, or it's a sequel and you
suddenly didn't realize you weregoing to be writing a sequel,
(21:23):
and now it's all a big mess orwhatever it is, these outside
pressures on that novel, andit's not something that came
from a moment of okay, I thinkI'm going to write a book and I
think this is what it's going tobe about, and you've been
mulling it for however manyyears.
It's intimidating.
It's really intimidating.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
But it is intimidating and I there was a
moment where I was like I don'tthink I have it in me, but then
honestly I was.
We were out someplace, I can'tremember, and I'm like, but I
just want to still keep hangingout with Beth and be like a
writer person writing.
I won't have like my writerfriends.
You know I have all thesewriter friends now and I'm like
(22:02):
I still want to be part of thegang.
I don't want to get kicked outof the club.
I don't want to get kicked out,just write, lisa write that's a
good bumper sticker, right Lisawrite.
I like it and it was hard.
It was hard.
I remember you halfway throughjust going, ah, I don't want to
do this anymore, and you know.
(22:23):
And then you had to give me thepep talk and and then I I dug
my way out and got through it,but I think you, you start
relying in your second book moreon craft as in.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I know how to make this happen.
I might not feel it in the samevisceral way that I did with my
first book, but I know how toget from point A to point B,
because I've done all thispractice and I've done all this
writing and now I have anunderstanding of what needs to
be the foundation of this effort.
So I think that changes frombook one to two, three, four,
(22:58):
changes from book one to two,three, four, et cetera.
I'm on book 11 and I still amlike what am I doing?
I don't, you know, I mean, Idon't know that that feeling
ever goes away after book one.
All the rest of them are alittle shocking.
So we kind of answered this alittle bit, but I want to, I
want to put the question to youanyway.
(23:18):
So did you feel more freedom ormore constrained in book two?
Some of these reasons we talkedabout already in that, you know
, you feel like I have to keepdoing this.
I've done it once, but I don'thave that story that I am
extremely passionate about orwhatever.
So what did you?
How would you answer that as?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
far as constraints, I just I had zero constraints.
I was in that sense of like I'mthrowing everything at this
book and I'm really.
I'm like you, I don't likebooks that feel preachy and you
can, like you said, you can feelit, and so I didn't want to
pull that back at all, and so II just was like I'm putting it
(24:03):
all in there and if somebodydoesn't like it, and if a reader
doesn't like it, or if there's,you know, we have all that book
banding going on and all thatnonsense, and I was like I just
don't care, like I the I don'tcare hat was on my head the
whole time.
I was like I am throwing it inthere and if anybody's offended,
(24:23):
I do not care, because thesekids need to hear stories and
they need it to be told in a waythat is relatable and that's.
You know, whenever I'm writing,I'm always just trying to think
like, does this sound preachy?
Would I be irritated?
Like?
There's times when I'm readinga book, I'm like I'm irritated
by this and I'm like that's.
You know, that's my biggestthing, and so I think I just
(24:48):
there is a freedom and it's just.
You know, if I don't get, if itdoesn't get published.
It doesn't get published.
You know, I just kind of hadthat attitude of like c'est la
vie, let's, let's do this Wellit's writing without fear.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, you're just.
You know going for it andtelling the story you want to
tell and not worrying aboutwho's going to be upset by this
or concerned like this.
You know being respectful ofthe things that we want to pay
attention to creating authenticcharacters who are.
You know who makes sense in theworld that you're putting them
into and all of those things,but not worrying about.
(25:21):
You know who makes sense in theworld that you're putting them
into and all of those things,but not worrying about.
You know some parent in someplace where book banning is all
the rage is going to get upsetbecause you're not writing for
that person.
Yeah, I don't care, I thinkthat's very.
I think that's very healthy andlisteners should all be taking
notes.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Don't care, Write that on your, on your yeah, only
only especially if you'rewriting for kid lit.
It's like do you not care about, like, what a grownup thinks
Like this is?
This is where where our spaceis, like we're like here to
serve these kids, write storiesfor these kids and hopefully
make some like impact that youknow affects their life in a
(25:59):
positive way, and so that was a.
That was a really freeing thingfor me, because book one I was
all about oh, what can I say,what can I not say?
I just didn't know and I didn'thave enough experience writing
or reading contemporary books.
I was all into magic.
You know everything is was in.
You know it was ghosts andmagic.
That's everything I love toread.
(26:20):
So I didn't, I wasn't reallyaware, and that's like another
reason why I'm always tellingpeople is read, read, read.
Because I hadn't read enoughacross different genres to
really fully understand, youknow, or have a better grasp on
the craft of what I was writingin, and so now I read across,
like I read different stories,so that I can really get an
(26:42):
understanding of how to writebetter.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
This is our message that we're constantly preaching
Go read, of course.
I stayed up last night tilllike two o'clock in the morning
reading.
Don't do that, because todayI'm a little bleary eyed and the
bags under my eyes are bigenough for, like checkable
luggage.
It's pretty bad.
Okay, this is a good question.
We usually ask this question ofall of our guests in some
(27:06):
flavor or another.
What advice would you give tosomeone about to start their
second novel, whether it bemiddle grade or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Change your point of view.
Like you've just written a bookthat is, it's taken you years
to write and your brain has beenso ensconced in that story.
Find a way to change your pointof view.
Like you have to get out ofthat voice.
You have to get out of thatstory.
And I think for me, when I waswriting Heart and Souls, when I
(27:36):
first started it, I still hadthe character and the story of
Folly Oxley so ingrained in mybrain.
It was really hard to likeseparate the two and change up
my voice.
And I still like it doesn'tmatter what I write or what you
write.
Your voice is always going tobe there.
But you still have to switch upyour character in a way that it
(27:56):
doesn't sound like just anotherversion of the character that
you just finished writing.
And so that, to me, is like myword of caution is like be
careful of not carrying thatvoice over to your second story
and finding a way to change yourpoint of view and like fully
separate from the story thatyou've just written.
(28:17):
That's been you've been writingfor years.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's so, that's such a good way to put it and
it's so true.
You can be haunted by thatvoice that you had created and
you definitely don't want tojust keep writing the same
person over and over, becauseyour readers will know, you know
they want something fresh anddifferent.
Of course, in a series, you getto keep that voice, but if
you're not writing a series, bemindful of those things, as Lisa
(28:43):
just told you.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I just I remember my critic partner, Catherine, when
she had read my first couplechapters of Heart and Soul.
She's like, this sounds likeOlly Oxley.
And I was like, no, you're like, so what?
What do you mean by that?
Like, what do you mean thatlike?
What do you mean?
But it was like and she wasright, I was using some of the
same like little you know hiswordplay and stuff, and I just I
(29:08):
looked at it and I'm like, ohmy gosh, I do sound like Ollie
Oxley.
I and I needed to step back andkind of find a new like a new
personality, a new persona forthis, this kid kid, and so
that's.
You know, that was my bigchallenge, and so that's what my
, my word of warning toeverybody is like just make sure
there's like that separationand that you can find that new
(29:31):
voice for the new character byby still retaining your voice,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And I think, knowing that upfront, that it's a
possibility, if you're writingin the same genre, that if
you're just thinking about thatfrom page one, how is this going
to be its own unique character?
And I'm not going to default tothe one I wrote before that's
probably a really good thing tojust keep front and center in
your mind as you're workingthrough the beginning of your
(29:59):
second novel or third orwhatever.
It is Okay.
So before we wrap up, tell uswhere you're going to be.
I know you're at some thingsover the coming months.
Can you just tell us whereyou're going to?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
be, so I will be at.
Well, of course, I'm having mybook launch, and that is July
27th at Ruby's Books and Folsom,and I will be in conversation
with oh my gosh Beth McMullen,are you?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
kidding me?
You're going to talk to her?
Oh my God.
Well, this is our practice, youguys.
So you know, hopefully we didwell enough that I won't be.
I'm saving questions for your,for your book launch.
The hard hitting ones are forthe book launch.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
And you know what?
I have to just throw this inbecause it's so amazing.
We went to Bitsy Kemper's booklaunch over the weekend and it
was so much fun she throws likean event.
Can I just say that she putsevery single book launch I've
ever been to to shame.
I was stunned.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I was stunned by the spread right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It's better than any party I've ever thrown, I mean
any birthday party I've everthrown for, you know, my son,
yeah, like you know, crayonswith her little name on it and
like a station for the littlekids.
And then there was like astation for the big kids with,
like meaning us, with mimosasand cupcakes of all these
(31:24):
different flavors and varieties,and there was like I mean it
was insane.
And I was telling herafterwards I'm like, oh, my God,
yeah, and it was mother's day.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It was mother's day and the location where the
bookstore is it's kind of likeright in the middle of this
little town area and so tons ofpeople were just coming in,
people that were out with liketheir little kids and stuff.
Yeah, she nailed that.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
A million books and a lot of books.
Like she asked me, like whatare you going to do?
And I said, oh, I want to do alittle heart and soul, like
heart shaped cookies and ghostcookies.
And so she texted me later onshe's like all right, I'm making
them for you.
And I just thought, oh, I'veseen your home for all of you,
isn't she just the sweetest?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
That is sweet, she's lovely, and she's still like
plugged in.
You know, if you want to knowwhat's going on, she's the one
you ask yeah, okay, so you'rehaving your book launch, you are
at a.
Are you at a conference?
You're at a conference.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, and at the end this is like crazy fun.
I've always wanted to go to ALAand get invited.
So I got invited by mypublisher, andrews McNeil, and
I'm going to be.
It's in San Diego at the end ofJune, beginning of July, so the
29th and 30th I will be at ALAsigning books and doing a panel
(32:42):
discussion.
So I'm super excited about thatbecause you see the pictures
and you're just like, ooh, thatlooks so much fun.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
If you guys are going to ALA.
Put this on your agenda to showup and say hi to Lisa, and we
will remind you of these things.
I will also put them in thepodcast notes and in the blog so
you can add them to yourcalendar.
So, lisa, thank you for joiningus here at Writers with
(33:08):
Wrinkles.
You were a great guest.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Thank you, I was prepared.
I had notes.
I want everybody to know that.
Put little notes off to theside.
I'm like mess up, mess up.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
So, yeah, now you know what it's like to be
sitting on the other side ofthat.
So, listeners, please rememberto check out
writerswithwrinklesnet to follow, support and share about the
show.
You can also find all theinformation I just talked about
where Lisa's going to be, etcetera, there, and we will see
you again next week, which willbe May 27th, when we're talking
to Josh Pruitt, who is a NewYork Times and USA Today
(33:43):
bestselling author and EmmyAward winner.
He is the only human being onEarth to have written for both
Mystery Science Theater 3000 andDoctor who, and is currently
working on the widelyanticipated return of Disney's
Phineas and Ferb.
I am a huge fan of that show,so I can't wait.
There are so many things we'regoing to ask him, so please join
us for that and until then,happy reading, writing and
(34:06):
listening.
Bye Lisa, Bye Beth, Bye guys.
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