September 20, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode, Beth and Lisa take a look at the challenges facing middle-grade publishing, from declining sales to changes in bookstore stocking strategies, that seem to be all anyone can talk about! They share insights on how aspiring authors can adapt to the shifting landscape and stand out in a saturated market.
Key Discussion Points:
- Viral Tweet and Industry Impact: Lisa’s tweet about authors leaving middle grade went viral, sparking widespread conversation and worry among aspiring authors. (00:46)
- Middle-Grade Sales Decline: Middle-grade sales dropped by 1.8 million books in the first half of 2024 compared to 2023, largely due to shifting reading habits and increased screen time among young readers. (03:02)
- Bookstore Stocking Changes: Barnes & Noble's reduction in middle-grade hardcover stocking and Ingram’s cutback on backlist titles have limited book visibility and availability. (09:53)
- Adapting as a Writer: Lisa offers actionable advice, including writing shorter middle-grade books (35,000 words), crafting a hook in the first chapter, and keeping chapters short to cater to modern attention spans. (19:16)
- The Importance of Listening to Industry Trends: Writers should pay attention to feedback from agents and editors to craft pitches that align with what the market demands. (21:15)
Beth and Lisa encourage aspiring middle-grade authors to be strategic in their approach by writing shorter, punchier books that capture attention quickly. Despite the market challenges, they emphasize that there are still opportunities for success if authors remain adaptable and smart in their storytelling.
Mentioned Links:
- Beth’s Substack on middle-grade trends (free)
- Previous episode with agent Anne Rose
- Writers with Wrinkles website
Next Episode:
On September 30th, tune in for a conversation with literary agent Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong of Marsal Lyon Literary Agency.
Visit the Website
Writers with Wrinkles Link Tree for socials and more!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Beth McMullen (00:00):
Hi friends, I'm Beth.
Lisa Schmid (00:01):
McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmid and we're the
co-hosts of Writers withWrinkles.
This is a special episode ofthe podcast, so we can talk
about middle grade publishingright now, because there's been
lots of conversations online inthe news about what is going on
and we thought we'd try to cutthrough all the noise, give you
some actual information, minusthe panic, and that we would
(00:25):
record this.
Today is a Thursday and we'regoing to drop this tomorrow, so
this is going to be a quickturnaround for this episode, but
we thought it was timely.
We started talking aboutrecording this with Lisa's
infamous tweet.
Do you want to talk about thetweet?
I feel like, everybody must haveseen it because it had a
gazillion views.
Beth McMullen (00:46):
It did.
Well, it was one of thosethings, and I am virtually
invisible on social media.
So it was shocking that I knowof at least three people who
have decided to exit middlegrade, who have several books
out that have shifted over toadult fiction because the middle
(01:06):
grade market is too difficultright now and their books aren't
getting picked up.
And I just spoke with somebodywho's leaving middle grade.
It's heartbreaking, you know,blah, blah, blah.
It was just a very simple tweetand it was like hashtag save
middle grade, and I just didn'teven think anything about it.
And then the next thing I knowit's getting retweeted,
retweeted, retweeted, andthere's this whole commentary
(01:29):
and authors who've never hookedtheir head into my little
universe were suddenly followingme.
Agents were following me,people, editors were following
me.
It was crazy and it just keptgetting retweeted.
And then, but the other otherthe downside of that also was
that you know, people weretalking about it, but there was
aspiring writers who werefeeling crestfallen, and so then
(01:53):
I started feeling anxious and Iremember calling you going.
I want it to stop gettingretweeted because I'm crushing
people's hopes and dreamspeople's hopes and dreams.
Lisa Schmid (02:09):
I think you hit a nerve.
I also think that the truth isalways better than some
Pollyanna point of view whereyou're saying, oh, it's going to
be great.
It's going to be great because,honestly, right now it is a
hard space to be working in andthat bears out, if you look at
the numbers, what is happeningin middle grade publishing and
sales.
I just put out a sub stackabout this, which I'll put the
(02:31):
link to that in the podcastnotes here so if people want to
read it, they can.
What struck me the most was thatin the six months of January to
June for 2023 versus 2024,there were 1.8 million less
(02:53):
books sold in middle grade,which was like a staggering
number to me, I think, becauseyou hear, oh, they're not
selling as well, blah, blah,blah.
But when you see 1.8 millionfewer copies sold in the first
six months of 24 versus 23, thatfelt kind of like a gut punch
(03:21):
to me.
I hadn't really thought aboutit in absolute numbers.
So I think what you were seeingin the tweet is the kind of
micro result of that, likeindividual people who are
experiencing this downturn andwhat that feels like to them, or
people who are looking at themarket as a potential place,
they want to work and saying,wait a minute, what is happening
?
Beth McMullen (03:39):
Right, yeah, there was, there's a lot going
on.
Yeah, there was there's a lotgoing on.
But I do have to say there wasone gal who chimed in that I
thought was it gave us a littleglimmer of hope, and it was an
editor from Random House and shetweeted back the market is slow
, but we're making a big pushfor middle grade over at Random
(04:01):
House, for what that's worth.
We agree that it's so essentialto continue growing lifelong
readers.
So this was an editor, again atRandom House, and I, of course,
immediately thought oh, prepareyourself, honey, because you're
about to get a million thousandsubmissions for middle grade,
(04:23):
because I immediately like, oh,this is going on Leslie's list
if I don't get picked up.
And so I just I think that youknow what I'm hearing from and I
think we've kind of talked tosome people on the show is that
they are adjusting and they'reseeing that they have to make
some shifts because this can'tsustain itself.
(04:44):
You can't just continue downthis path without making
adjustments to help it continueto grow, otherwise you're going
to, you know, push yourself outof business.
Lisa Schmid (04:55):
So some of the why behind this, I think, is
interesting.
Obviously, a contributingfactor is post-pandemic behavior
.
I read and I cannot rememberthe source for this, so forgive
me.
Reading for pleasure among nineto 12 year olds is losing out
(05:15):
to other activities,particularly screen time, and
that's like so obvious if youjust look around the world.
And it happens to adults too.
It happens to me.
I was talking with a bookcoaching client recently about
how important your first chapteris, because what you're
competing with now is not otherbooks or homework or sports, but
(05:39):
with the tiny little device inyour pocket.
And if you can't providesomething that grabs the
attention more so than the tinylittle device, then you're sunk
and it's a huge mountain toclimb.
It's hard.
I mean, it used to be, yeah,have a great first chapter, but
now it's like you have to have achapter that's not only great,
(06:00):
but it has to transcend thatdopamine rush that you get from
whatever it is you're doing onyour phone, which is tough in
the best of circumstances.
That's tough.
So part of the reason that,part of the reason of of why
we're seeing this change inmiddle grade, is because reading
for pleasure has had a bigshift post pandemic.
(06:20):
I don't know, maybe we wouldhave ended up here anyway, but
possibly slower.
But that pandemic, really,because it sent us all to our
little screens, it definitelyaccelerated that trend in my
mind accelerated that trend inmy mind that's.
Beth McMullen (06:36):
you know, one of the things I see often,
especially with aspiring authorsonline, is talking about how
frustrating it is for them thatyou know they only get to send
the first 10 pages, that theirbook really picks up steam or
whatever, and it's like you knowwhat.
You may think that, but if itdoesn't catch an agent's eye, if
(06:57):
it doesn't catch theirattention, it's certainly not
going to catch a reader'sattention, and so you really do
need to knock that first chapterout of the park.
Otherwise and not saying thatthe rest of the book needs to,
you know, well then you cancoast, but it that first chapter
, you really need to work on itand make it like it has to have
(07:19):
a hook, it has to have somethingthat is going to grab the
reader's attention more so thanany other time.
And I know a lot of people sayit's you know the first line.
I don't agree with that.
It's like to me.
It's just like that first youknow paragraph that first,
whatever.
That's posing the question forthe whole book.
It has got to be there, and ifit's not there, you need to work
(07:41):
on it.
Lisa Schmid (07:42):
Totally, totally true, because I think with adult
fiction you have a tiny bitmore leeway, not a ton, but a
little bit more, because mostadults are better at saying to
themselves okay, I'm going togive this another five, 10 pages
, but kids, no way, you don'thave that bandwidth.
You've got to get it done inthe first couple of pages or
(08:03):
you're sunk.
And honestly, like you said, ifyou're thinking to yourself,
well, my book picks up later,just shift that momentum forward
, bring it all forward, becauseit doesn't matter what happens
on page 10 through 250, if younever get anybody past page
three.
So you've got to, really you'vegot to just double down on that
.
And that is a result of of justthese trends heading in the
(08:27):
direction they are.
Another thing that we talkedabout with Anne Rose, who's a an
agent as well as an author, whowas on the show a couple of
weeks ago.
If you haven't listened to thatone, go listen to it, because
she has lots of interestingthings to say.
Among them, another why forexplaining this trend in middle
(08:47):
grade is that Barnes Noble madea huge, huge shift in how they
stock their shelves, what theywill purchase, and you have to
remember that a publisher'scustomers are really the
bookstores.
They're going to determine whatis sitting on the shelves in
front of potential readers.
So those operations are goingto affect how books are sold and
(09:10):
marketed and all of thosethings.
And because Barnes Noble haspulled back on middle grade
hardcover fiction in a big way,suddenly that avenue was shut
down and that's huge, has a hugeimpact in the number of books
that are moving.
Beth McMullen (09:27):
It does, and that's so depressing because I
used to like years ago, when Bborders was still a thing oh my
god, I miss border so much Iknow and it's may come as a
surprise.
Like I, for a long time I wasreading adult fiction, like I
loved adult fiction.
Lisa Schmid (09:46):
This is all shocking.
This is pretty oh my goshpeople are like listening to
this podcast and swerving offthe road shocked.
Beth McMullen (09:53):
I only started reading middle grade years and
years ago when I started hearingabout this whole Harry Potter
phase craze and I was like youknow what I want to check this
out Like, why is everyonetalking about this?
So I started reading middlegrade and that's when I fell in
love with middle grade again andI was able to go to boarders
who had a huge section of middlegrade and peruse and I would go
(10:16):
like every weekend and findmiddle grade books that I wanted
to read and that's how I fellin love with it all over again,
because they were right therefor me to see.
And bookstores have taken awaythat opportunity for kids.
It's no longer kids that get tobuy the books, it's whoever.
The adults are saying youshould buy this book, and so, as
(10:37):
a result, I really feel likethat's also impacted the middle
grade, because kids no longerhave a say in what they want to
buy, because they're not onAmazon.
Lisa Schmid (10:46):
You just can't look at books that way to buy, and
so I mean you have to go to thelibrary, but then again the
library is going to have thesame stuff available that
borders Now I'm totallyconfusing my borders and my
Barnes, barnes, noble is goingto have, because that's the
stuff that's coming out, right,right, so it's.
You know, when you slice inhalf the number of books that
(11:08):
are actually being published andput out there on the shelves of
bookstores or libraries, you'rejust there's way less for the
kids to choose from.
Beth McMullen (11:17):
And Barnes and Noble is so like.
The section is so small.
It's like an L-shaped likesection of books.
You know that cover, one littletiny cubicle in the corner of
Barnes and Noble.
And the first day that my bookcame out I went in there like is
my book here?
Are they carrying it?
And it was there.
There was one copy like on areally high shelf that like no
(11:41):
kid's ever going to see.
And the other thing I'm hearingis that a lot of times that once
they sell that they may notrestock it.
They just will move on to thenext thing, especially if it
takes some time to sell.
Yeah, and the other thing iswhich is really disheartening is
Ingram is now not stocking asmuch of their, their backstock
(12:07):
of their middle grade.
So, for example, like you can'tget Olly Oxley and the ghost
because Ingram doesn't stock itanymore.
You know you can get it onAmazon or you can get it
straight from the publisher.
You can't get it from Ingramand it's not that's five years
old, I get it.
But I have friends whose bookscame out like two years ago and
they're no longer.
Ingram no longer stocks itbecause they're just.
(12:30):
So then it's like there goesthose sales because they can't
get access to it.
You know booksellers can't getaccess to it.
So there's this whole swirling,you know mess, of why middle
grade is struggling so much.
Lisa Schmid (12:44):
Yeah, and there's lots of spokes in the wheel.
You know Barnes Noble is justone of them.
Ingram, like you just mentionedall of those things are
contributing to this downtick insales.
The other thing that Anne Rosetalked about that I think is
interesting when you're talkingabout this topic is that there
is the oversaturation in themarket, and she actually said
(13:05):
this is affecting all genres,but that of course includes
middle grade.
The market is not going tomagically become undersaturated,
especially because you haveself-publishing really on the
upswing.
It's gotten better, the booksare better.
Authors well-known authors areturning to it because they have
(13:29):
more control.
They're going to make moremoney off of it.
They're not feeling like thepublishers are giving them
enough for what they're tradingoff in terms of sales.
So you can't count on suddenlythe market being desperate and
all sorts of books finallyselling.
I don't think we're going tosee under saturation happen.
(13:49):
So that's another thing that isimpacting middle grade sales
right now.
Beth McMullen (13:55):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot, and it just we
were.
There's just so many differentlittle like microcosms of like
reasons.
Also, like we were talkingabout New York Times bestseller
before we went online.
There's 15 spots for adult andonly 10 for middle grade and YA,
and that's.
If they even like, show up,they randomly, the bestseller
(14:19):
list will randomly show up.
Goodreads has completely doneaway with their middle grade you
know best of which is sodiscouraging, and I think
everybody on the planet inmiddle grade and kid lit has
complained to them, and yet theychoose not to respond to it,
and so we just.
I think all these factors areworking against us, but we've
(14:41):
worked, you know.
I'm hopeful that the publishersare finding a way to to work
through this hump and and getover this.
You know this crisis, so tospeak.
Lisa Schmid (14:53):
It's definitely a confluence of events.
There's lots of things comingto bear on this downturn.
It's not just one thing.
It's lots of things happeningall at the same time being
driven by declining customers,because publishing is a business
, and if you suddenly have onethird of your customers
disappear which is what it sortof sounds like in terms of how
(15:14):
many kids are reading forpleasure then you have to adjust
.
So all is not lost.
This is not meant to be theDebbie Downer of podcasts, but I
think you need to consider themarket you're going into.
And how do you?
If you are about to try andsell a middle grade book, what
(15:39):
are some things that you can do?
So I found this interestinglittle tidbit, and this was also
in my newsletter.
There are little pockets ofgrowth within middle grade.
Certain subjects, for instanceand this is totally like a
middle grade list robots,dragons, action, adventure,
(16:03):
wilderness stories, graphicnovels continue to be a bright
spot.
That makes a lot of sense ifwe're talking about an attention
economy.
So maybe you are writing in oneof those spaces, in which case,
good for you.
You've already got a little legup.
Maybe you've been trying todecide I'm going to write about
A or B, and B has robots in it.
(16:24):
Maybe this helps you headtoward B and write about that
story that you've been mullingover in your head.
The other thing that I think isimportant is what we just
touched on and something thatwas also touched on by Anne in
our conversation with her isthat you have to write a really
(16:45):
good book in order for it tostand out in this crowded,
shrinking market.
It has to be excellent.
I don't think there's any roomanymore for books that are
mediocre or half thought throughor not quite done or any of
those things.
You really have to be creatingthe best book that you can.
(17:11):
Of course, you're always goingto improve it when you get into
a relationship with an editorwho brings it to the next level.
Blah, blah, blah.
But the most that you can doand maybe that involves hiring
an editor or getting morefriends to read it or joining a
critique group or any of thesethings but I think you really do
(17:33):
need to go the extra mile justto give yourself a little leg up
in this tough marketplace.
Beth McMullen (17:43):
Really listen to what is being said out there.
So, for example, when I went toALA and everybody was talking
and everybody like editors andagents online everyone's saying
shorter middle grade, shortermiddle grade, shorter middle
grade.
I hear that and I'm like, allright, I'm writing a shorter
middle grade.
I cut 10,000.
(18:03):
Like I normally go around45,000 and they, everyone was
saying 35,000 is the sweet spot.
I believe that I'm not going tolike, try to write some story
and say, but you're going tolove this, you know you'll love
it.
You know, when I tell it thisway, you know what.
I'm just making the, you know,my hero's journey just a little
bit shorter and cutting out afew obstacles and I'm still
(18:25):
getting.
You know my point in, I'm stillstaying true to the story.
You know, something else I dopersonally, and it's because I
know kids attention spans arereally short, is that I write
very short chapters.
You know they're no more thanfour pages.
When I'm writing which is likearound 1500 words, I guess, I
don't know and I create lots ofwhite space and short paragraphs
(18:49):
and I just I punch it up likethroughout it so that you know
kids when they're reading it, ifthey see this long chapter and
I'm the same way.
I'm like, oh my God, it's 10,you know it's 10 pages, you know
.
So I keep really short chaptersand try to make everything very
pinchy, like just move it alongreally quick.
So that's like, if I hear whatthey're saying, I believe them.
(19:13):
I started this book with anaction sequence.
I'm like you know what, I'mjumping right into action and
that's how I started this bookand so I think it's just, you
know, believe what people aretelling you out there and don't
try to like go against the grainor think that you're going to
write something, this amazingthing that's you know so good
that it's, you know, going tochange somebody's mind.
Lisa Schmid (19:42):
That's true, and I think what we have learned from
many of the agents and editorsthat we talked to on this show
is that they do have an idea ofwhat they are looking for, what
they think is going to work inthis marketplace.
And if you listen to whatthey're saying, you can get a
lot of little hints about how tocraft your pitch in a way
that's going to get them to askto see the book.
And, honestly, if you'restarting out, that's your first
(20:03):
goal get somebody to ask to readthe whole book.
And just listen to what they'resaying and do what they're
saying.
And then you are movingyourself to the top of the heap
because you're giving them whatthey want.
And yes, the shorter length issuper crucial right now because,
again, you're competing with aTikTok video or an Instagram
(20:26):
reel or this or that, and thosethings require no effort.
Right Reading requires effort.
You have to get the book, sitdown and read it.
So think about your chapter.
Is this as catchy as like aTikTok video of some dog doing
something cute or somethingright?
And if it's not, you got toraise the bar.
(20:47):
You know I mean it's that hard,but that's the reality of it.
It's not going to be easy, buteveryone can do it.
We see books that are doing itnow.
So I think it's just payingattention to the information
that you're given and abiding byit.
Beth McMullen (21:06):
Yeah, and I don't you know, there are still
writers out there that arewriting middle grade, that are
extraordinary long books, likeI've got one on hold and
somebody just told me it was 400.
And I'm like, oh my God, I'mnever gonna read it, you're
actually 12 years old.
So I just but I, you know, still, I ordered it, so I got to go
(21:28):
pick it up, I bought it, youknow, and but the thing is it's
like that particular writer healready has a built-in fan base
that will read what you know,whatever he writes, because you
know they love him so much andso he can get away with that.
You cannot.
If, like, if you're like aB-list writer like me, I could
(21:49):
never get away with that.
And if you're an aspiringwriter, you are not going to get
away with that.
So don't, if you see somethingout there and be like he's doing
it.
Lisa Schmid (22:03):
Yeah Well, he's doing it Cause he's got 20 books
under him and he's a New Yorktimes bestseller, I think.
To remember, I like to call itthe Stephen King syndrome.
Right, he can write a thousandpage book which is expensive to
produce and sell, but he's goingto sell them.
You know, you and me, if wewrite a thousand page book, it's
going to be expensive toproduce and there's no guarantee
that they're ever going to maketheir money back.
(22:23):
So there is also that if you'reseeing books that are long and
they are tailored to a specificfan base, that makes total sense
and you could be one of thosepeople after you publish a few
books.
But in the beginning, try topay attention to what you're
hearing from the industry andwhat they're saying they want in
your work.
Beth McMullen (22:44):
And that's the bottom line.
Lisa Schmid (22:46):
That's the bottom line.
We have hit the bottom line.
So, okay, we're happy we cameon here to talk about this
because it is a trending topicand we have this platform, so we
wanted to just get on here andtalk to you guys about it.
Do not despair.
There are definitely openingsand gaps in this market that you
(23:06):
can slip through and find lotsof success.
So don't give up, but just payattention.
Be smart.
I think is that what we'resaying.
We're saying be smart aboutyour middle grade writing.
Be smart.
I think is that what we'resaying.
Beth McMullen (23:16):
We're saying be smart about your middle grade
writing, be smart and strategic.
You know, if you're just, ifyou're writing for the joy of it
and you're like this is I loveI write because you know I have
so many stories in my head and Iwant to get them out, then be
that joyful writer.
But if you are somebody whowants to get published, you know
you also have to look at thisas a business, like through the
eyes of like a Barnes and Nobleor a publisher.
(23:38):
Like it is a business that youare getting into.
I know everyone's like I'm acreative and we're all creatives
and there's a very artsy, funside to it.
But if you want to getpublished, you're going to have
to think like a business personas well and be strategic about
what you're writing about andhow you're writing it.
Lisa Schmid (23:57):
Lisa, business person as well, and be strategic
about what you're writing aboutand how you're writing it.
Lisa is very smart.
Listen to her words.
Be a joyful writer, but alsosmart and strategic.
We should print bumper stickersor t-shirts.
I am a joyful writer, but I'malso smart and strategic.
Anyway, so that is it fortoday's episode.
Hopefully you get something outof it.
Listeners, please remember tovisit our website,
(24:17):
writerswithwrinklesnet, so youcan find out how to support the
show by subscribing, followingand recommending.
Also on our website, you canfind the link to ask a question
for an upcoming Ask Beth andLisa episode.
Those are turning out to bevery popular and we love your
questions.
We are back on September 30thwith literary agent Kathy
(24:39):
Armstrong.
She's at Marsal Lion.
So if you want to know whatagents are thinking and talking
about and you totally do for allthe reasons we just said please
join us for that one and untilthen, happy reading, writing and
listening.
Bye, lisa, the best, bye guys.
Hi friends, I'm Beth.
Lisa Schmid (00:01):
McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmid and we're the
co-hosts of Writers withWrinkles.
This is a special episode ofthe podcast, so we can talk
about middle grade publishingright now, because there's been
lots of conversations online inthe news about what is going on
and we thought we'd try to cutthrough all the noise, give you
some actual information, minusthe panic, and that we would
(00:25):
record this.
Today is a Thursday and we'regoing to drop this tomorrow, so
this is going to be a quickturnaround for this episode, but
we thought it was timely.
We started talking aboutrecording this with Lisa's
infamous tweet.
Do you want to talk about thetweet?
I feel like, everybody must haveseen it because it had a
gazillion views.
Beth McMullen (00:46):
It did.
Well, it was one of thosethings, and I am virtually
invisible on social media.
So it was shocking that I knowof at least three people who
have decided to exit middlegrade, who have several books
out that have shifted over toadult fiction because the middle
(01:06):
grade market is too difficultright now and their books aren't
getting picked up.
And I just spoke with somebodywho's leaving middle grade.
It's heartbreaking, you know,blah, blah, blah.
It was just a very simple tweetand it was like hashtag save
middle grade, and I just didn'teven think anything about it.
And then the next thing I knowit's getting retweeted,
retweeted, retweeted, andthere's this whole commentary
(01:29):
and authors who've never hookedtheir head into my little
universe were suddenly followingme.
Agents were following me,people, editors were following
me.
It was crazy and it just keptgetting retweeted.
And then, but the other otherthe downside of that also was
that you know, people weretalking about it, but there was
aspiring writers who werefeeling crestfallen, and so then
(01:53):
I started feeling anxious and Iremember calling you going.
I want it to stop gettingretweeted because I'm crushing
people's hopes and dreamspeople's hopes and dreams.
Lisa Schmid (02:09):
I think you hit a nerve.
I also think that the truth isalways better than some
Pollyanna point of view whereyou're saying, oh, it's going to
be great.
It's going to be great because,honestly, right now it is a
hard space to be working in andthat bears out, if you look at
the numbers, what is happeningin middle grade publishing and
sales.
I just put out a sub stackabout this, which I'll put the
(02:31):
link to that in the podcastnotes here so if people want to
read it, they can.
What struck me the most was thatin the six months of January to
June for 2023 versus 2024,there were 1.8 million less
(02:53):
books sold in middle grade,which was like a staggering
number to me, I think, becauseyou hear, oh, they're not
selling as well, blah, blah,blah.
But when you see 1.8 millionfewer copies sold in the first
six months of 24 versus 23, thatfelt kind of like a gut punch
(03:21):
to me.
I hadn't really thought aboutit in absolute numbers.
So I think what you were seeingin the tweet is the kind of
micro result of that, likeindividual people who are
experiencing this downturn andwhat that feels like to them, or
people who are looking at themarket as a potential place,
they want to work and saying,wait a minute, what is happening
?
Beth McMullen (03:39):
Right, yeah, there was, there's a lot going
on.
Yeah, there was there's a lotgoing on.
But I do have to say there wasone gal who chimed in that I
thought was it gave us a littleglimmer of hope, and it was an
editor from Random House and shetweeted back the market is slow
, but we're making a big pushfor middle grade over at Random
(04:01):
House, for what that's worth.
We agree that it's so essentialto continue growing lifelong
readers.
So this was an editor, again atRandom House, and I, of course,
immediately thought oh, prepareyourself, honey, because you're
about to get a million thousandsubmissions for middle grade,
(04:23):
because I immediately like, oh,this is going on Leslie's list
if I don't get picked up.
And so I just I think that youknow what I'm hearing from and I
think we've kind of talked tosome people on the show is that
they are adjusting and they'reseeing that they have to make
some shifts because this can'tsustain itself.
(04:44):
You can't just continue downthis path without making
adjustments to help it continueto grow, otherwise you're going
to, you know, push yourself outof business.
Lisa Schmid (04:55):
So some of the why behind this, I think, is
interesting.
Obviously, a contributingfactor is post-pandemic behavior
.
I read and I cannot rememberthe source for this, so forgive
me.
Reading for pleasure among nineto 12 year olds is losing out
(05:15):
to other activities,particularly screen time, and
that's like so obvious if youjust look around the world.
And it happens to adults too.
It happens to me.
I was talking with a bookcoaching client recently about
how important your first chapteris, because what you're
competing with now is not otherbooks or homework or sports, but
(05:39):
with the tiny little device inyour pocket.
And if you can't providesomething that grabs the
attention more so than the tinylittle device, then you're sunk
and it's a huge mountain toclimb.
It's hard.
I mean, it used to be, yeah,have a great first chapter, but
now it's like you have to have achapter that's not only great,
(06:00):
but it has to transcend thatdopamine rush that you get from
whatever it is you're doing onyour phone, which is tough in
the best of circumstances.
That's tough.
So part of the reason that,part of the reason of of why
we're seeing this change inmiddle grade, is because reading
for pleasure has had a bigshift post pandemic.
(06:20):
I don't know, maybe we wouldhave ended up here anyway, but
possibly slower.
But that pandemic, really,because it sent us all to our
little screens, it definitelyaccelerated that trend in my
mind accelerated that trend inmy mind that's.
Beth McMullen (06:36):
you know, one of the things I see often,
especially with aspiring authorsonline, is talking about how
frustrating it is for them thatyou know they only get to send
the first 10 pages, that theirbook really picks up steam or
whatever, and it's like you knowwhat.
You may think that, but if itdoesn't catch an agent's eye, if
(06:57):
it doesn't catch theirattention, it's certainly not
going to catch a reader'sattention, and so you really do
need to knock that first chapterout of the park.
Otherwise and not saying thatthe rest of the book needs to,
you know, well then you cancoast, but it that first chapter
, you really need to work on itand make it like it has to have
(07:19):
a hook, it has to have somethingthat is going to grab the
reader's attention more so thanany other time.
And I know a lot of people sayit's you know the first line.
I don't agree with that.
It's like to me.
It's just like that first youknow paragraph that first,
whatever.
That's posing the question forthe whole book.
It has got to be there, and ifit's not there, you need to work
(07:41):
on it.
Lisa Schmid (07:42):
Totally, totally true, because I think with adult
fiction you have a tiny bitmore leeway, not a ton, but a
little bit more, because mostadults are better at saying to
themselves okay, I'm going togive this another five, 10 pages
, but kids, no way, you don'thave that bandwidth.
You've got to get it done inthe first couple of pages or
(08:03):
you're sunk.
And honestly, like you said, ifyou're thinking to yourself,
well, my book picks up later,just shift that momentum forward
, bring it all forward, becauseit doesn't matter what happens
on page 10 through 250, if younever get anybody past page
three.
So you've got to, really you'vegot to just double down on that
.
And that is a result of of justthese trends heading in the
(08:27):
direction they are.
Another thing that we talkedabout with Anne Rose, who's a an
agent as well as an author, whowas on the show a couple of
weeks ago.
If you haven't listened to thatone, go listen to it, because
she has lots of interestingthings to say.
Among them, another why forexplaining this trend in middle
(08:47):
grade is that Barnes Noble madea huge, huge shift in how they
stock their shelves, what theywill purchase, and you have to
remember that a publisher'scustomers are really the
bookstores.
They're going to determine whatis sitting on the shelves in
front of potential readers.
So those operations are goingto affect how books are sold and
(09:10):
marketed and all of thosethings.
And because Barnes Noble haspulled back on middle grade
hardcover fiction in a big way,suddenly that avenue was shut
down and that's huge, has a hugeimpact in the number of books
that are moving.
Beth McMullen (09:27):
It does, and that's so depressing because I
used to like years ago, when Bborders was still a thing oh my
god, I miss border so much Iknow and it's may come as a
surprise.
Like I, for a long time I wasreading adult fiction, like I
loved adult fiction.
Lisa Schmid (09:46):
This is all shocking.
This is pretty oh my goshpeople are like listening to
this podcast and swerving offthe road shocked.
Beth McMullen (09:53):
I only started reading middle grade years and
years ago when I started hearingabout this whole Harry Potter
phase craze and I was like youknow what I want to check this
out Like, why is everyonetalking about this?
So I started reading middlegrade and that's when I fell in
love with middle grade again andI was able to go to boarders
who had a huge section of middlegrade and peruse and I would go
(10:16):
like every weekend and findmiddle grade books that I wanted
to read and that's how I fellin love with it all over again,
because they were right therefor me to see.
And bookstores have taken awaythat opportunity for kids.
It's no longer kids that get tobuy the books, it's whoever.
The adults are saying youshould buy this book, and so, as
(10:37):
a result, I really feel likethat's also impacted the middle
grade, because kids no longerhave a say in what they want to
buy, because they're not onAmazon.
Lisa Schmid (10:46):
You just can't look at books that way to buy, and
so I mean you have to go to thelibrary, but then again the
library is going to have thesame stuff available that
borders Now I'm totallyconfusing my borders and my
Barnes, barnes, noble is goingto have, because that's the
stuff that's coming out, right,right, so it's.
You know, when you slice inhalf the number of books that
(11:08):
are actually being published andput out there on the shelves of
bookstores or libraries, you'rejust there's way less for the
kids to choose from.
Beth McMullen (11:17):
And Barnes and Noble is so like.
The section is so small.
It's like an L-shaped likesection of books.
You know that cover, one littletiny cubicle in the corner of
Barnes and Noble.
And the first day that my bookcame out I went in there like is
my book here?
Are they carrying it?
And it was there.
There was one copy like on areally high shelf that like no
(11:41):
kid's ever going to see.
And the other thing I'm hearingis that a lot of times that once
they sell that they may notrestock it.
They just will move on to thenext thing, especially if it
takes some time to sell.
Yeah, and the other thing iswhich is really disheartening is
Ingram is now not stocking asmuch of their, their backstock
(12:07):
of their middle grade.
So, for example, like you can'tget Olly Oxley and the ghost
because Ingram doesn't stock itanymore.
You know you can get it onAmazon or you can get it
straight from the publisher.
You can't get it from Ingramand it's not that's five years
old, I get it.
But I have friends whose bookscame out like two years ago and
they're no longer.
Ingram no longer stocks itbecause they're just.
(12:30):
So then it's like there goesthose sales because they can't
get access to it.
You know booksellers can't getaccess to it.
So there's this whole swirling,you know mess, of why middle
grade is struggling so much.
Lisa Schmid (12:44):
Yeah, and there's lots of spokes in the wheel.
You know Barnes Noble is justone of them.
Ingram, like you just mentionedall of those things are
contributing to this downtick insales.
The other thing that Anne Rosetalked about that I think is
interesting when you're talkingabout this topic is that there
is the oversaturation in themarket, and she actually said
(13:05):
this is affecting all genres,but that of course includes
middle grade.
The market is not going tomagically become undersaturated,
especially because you haveself-publishing really on the
upswing.
It's gotten better, the booksare better.
Authors well-known authors areturning to it because they have
(13:29):
more control.
They're going to make moremoney off of it.
They're not feeling like thepublishers are giving them
enough for what they're tradingoff in terms of sales.
So you can't count on suddenlythe market being desperate and
all sorts of books finallyselling.
I don't think we're going tosee under saturation happen.
(13:49):
So that's another thing that isimpacting middle grade sales
right now.
Beth McMullen (13:55):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot, and it just we
were.
There's just so many differentlittle like microcosms of like
reasons.
Also, like we were talkingabout New York Times bestseller
before we went online.
There's 15 spots for adult andonly 10 for middle grade and YA,
and that's.
If they even like, show up,they randomly, the bestseller
(14:19):
list will randomly show up.
Goodreads has completely doneaway with their middle grade you
know best of which is sodiscouraging, and I think
everybody on the planet inmiddle grade and kid lit has
complained to them, and yet theychoose not to respond to it,
and so we just.
I think all these factors areworking against us, but we've
(14:41):
worked, you know.
I'm hopeful that the publishersare finding a way to to work
through this hump and and getover this.
You know this crisis, so tospeak.
Lisa Schmid (14:53):
It's definitely a confluence of events.
There's lots of things comingto bear on this downturn.
It's not just one thing.
It's lots of things happeningall at the same time being
driven by declining customers,because publishing is a business
, and if you suddenly have onethird of your customers
disappear which is what it sortof sounds like in terms of how
(15:14):
many kids are reading forpleasure then you have to adjust
.
So all is not lost.
This is not meant to be theDebbie Downer of podcasts, but I
think you need to consider themarket you're going into.
And how do you?
If you are about to try andsell a middle grade book, what
(15:39):
are some things that you can do?
So I found this interestinglittle tidbit, and this was also
in my newsletter.
There are little pockets ofgrowth within middle grade.
Certain subjects, for instanceand this is totally like a
middle grade list robots,dragons, action, adventure,
(16:03):
wilderness stories, graphicnovels continue to be a bright
spot.
That makes a lot of sense ifwe're talking about an attention
economy.
So maybe you are writing in oneof those spaces, in which case,
good for you.
You've already got a little legup.
Maybe you've been trying todecide I'm going to write about
A or B, and B has robots in it.
(16:24):
Maybe this helps you headtoward B and write about that
story that you've been mullingover in your head.
The other thing that I think isimportant is what we just
touched on and something thatwas also touched on by Anne in
our conversation with her isthat you have to write a really
(16:45):
good book in order for it tostand out in this crowded,
shrinking market.
It has to be excellent.
I don't think there's any roomanymore for books that are
mediocre or half thought throughor not quite done or any of
those things.
You really have to be creatingthe best book that you can.
(17:11):
Of course, you're always goingto improve it when you get into
a relationship with an editorwho brings it to the next level.
Blah, blah, blah.
But the most that you can doand maybe that involves hiring
an editor or getting morefriends to read it or joining a
critique group or any of thesethings but I think you really do
(17:33):
need to go the extra mile justto give yourself a little leg up
in this tough marketplace.
Beth McMullen (17:43):
Really listen to what is being said out there.
So, for example, when I went toALA and everybody was talking
and everybody like editors andagents online everyone's saying
shorter middle grade, shortermiddle grade, shorter middle
grade.
I hear that and I'm like, allright, I'm writing a shorter
middle grade.
I cut 10,000.
(18:03):
Like I normally go around45,000 and they, everyone was
saying 35,000 is the sweet spot.
I believe that I'm not going tolike, try to write some story
and say, but you're going tolove this, you know you'll love
it.
You know, when I tell it thisway, you know what.
I'm just making the, you know,my hero's journey just a little
bit shorter and cutting out afew obstacles and I'm still
(18:25):
getting.
You know my point in, I'm stillstaying true to the story.
You know, something else I dopersonally, and it's because I
know kids attention spans arereally short, is that I write
very short chapters.
You know they're no more thanfour pages.
When I'm writing which is likearound 1500 words, I guess, I
don't know and I create lots ofwhite space and short paragraphs
(18:49):
and I just I punch it up likethroughout it so that you know
kids when they're reading it, ifthey see this long chapter and
I'm the same way.
I'm like, oh my God, it's 10,you know it's 10 pages, you know
.
So I keep really short chaptersand try to make everything very
pinchy, like just move it alongreally quick.
So that's like, if I hear whatthey're saying, I believe them.
(19:13):
I started this book with anaction sequence.
I'm like you know what, I'mjumping right into action and
that's how I started this bookand so I think it's just, you
know, believe what people aretelling you out there and don't
try to like go against the grainor think that you're going to
write something, this amazingthing that's you know so good
that it's, you know, going tochange somebody's mind.
Lisa Schmid (19:42):
That's true, and I think what we have learned from
many of the agents and editorsthat we talked to on this show
is that they do have an idea ofwhat they are looking for, what
they think is going to work inthis marketplace.
And if you listen to whatthey're saying, you can get a
lot of little hints about how tocraft your pitch in a way
that's going to get them to askto see the book.
And, honestly, if you'restarting out, that's your first
(20:03):
goal get somebody to ask to readthe whole book.
And just listen to what they'resaying and do what they're
saying.
And then you are movingyourself to the top of the heap
because you're giving them whatthey want.
And yes, the shorter length issuper crucial right now because,
again, you're competing with aTikTok video or an Instagram
(20:26):
reel or this or that, and thosethings require no effort.
Right Reading requires effort.
You have to get the book, sitdown and read it.
So think about your chapter.
Is this as catchy as like aTikTok video of some dog doing
something cute or somethingright?
And if it's not, you got toraise the bar.
(20:47):
You know I mean it's that hard,but that's the reality of it.
It's not going to be easy, buteveryone can do it.
We see books that are doing itnow.
So I think it's just payingattention to the information
that you're given and abiding byit.
Beth McMullen (21:06):
Yeah, and I don't you know, there are still
writers out there that arewriting middle grade, that are
extraordinary long books, likeI've got one on hold and
somebody just told me it was 400.
And I'm like, oh my God, I'mnever gonna read it, you're
actually 12 years old.
So I just but I, you know, still, I ordered it, so I got to go
(21:28):
pick it up, I bought it, youknow, and but the thing is it's
like that particular writer healready has a built-in fan base
that will read what you know,whatever he writes, because you
know they love him so much andso he can get away with that.
You cannot.
If, like, if you're like aB-list writer like me, I could
(21:49):
never get away with that.
And if you're an aspiringwriter, you are not going to get
away with that.
So don't, if you see somethingout there and be like he's doing
it.
Lisa Schmid (22:03):
Yeah Well, he's doing it Cause he's got 20 books
under him and he's a New Yorktimes bestseller, I think.
To remember, I like to call itthe Stephen King syndrome.
Right, he can write a thousandpage book which is expensive to
produce and sell, but he's goingto sell them.
You know, you and me, if wewrite a thousand page book, it's
going to be expensive toproduce and there's no guarantee
that they're ever going to maketheir money back.
(22:23):
So there is also that if you'reseeing books that are long and
they are tailored to a specificfan base, that makes total sense
and you could be one of thosepeople after you publish a few
books.
But in the beginning, try topay attention to what you're
hearing from the industry andwhat they're saying they want in
your work.
Beth McMullen (22:44):
And that's the bottom line.
Lisa Schmid (22:46):
That's the bottom line.
We have hit the bottom line.
So, okay, we're happy we cameon here to talk about this
because it is a trending topicand we have this platform, so we
wanted to just get on here andtalk to you guys about it.
Do not despair.
There are definitely openingsand gaps in this market that you
(23:06):
can slip through and find lotsof success.
So don't give up, but just payattention.
Be smart.
I think is that what we'resaying.
We're saying be smart aboutyour middle grade writing.
Be smart.
I think is that what we'resaying.
Beth McMullen (23:16):
We're saying be smart about your middle grade
writing, be smart and strategic.
You know, if you're just, ifyou're writing for the joy of it
and you're like this is I loveI write because you know I have
so many stories in my head and Iwant to get them out, then be
that joyful writer.
But if you are somebody whowants to get published, you know
you also have to look at thisas a business, like through the
eyes of like a Barnes and Nobleor a publisher.
(23:38):
Like it is a business that youare getting into.
I know everyone's like I'm acreative and we're all creatives
and there's a very artsy, funside to it.
But if you want to getpublished, you're going to have
to think like a business personas well and be strategic about
what you're writing about andhow you're writing it.
Lisa Schmid (23:57):
Lisa, business person as well, and be strategic
about what you're writing aboutand how you're writing it.
Lisa is very smart.
Listen to her words.
Be a joyful writer, but alsosmart and strategic.
We should print bumper stickersor t-shirts.
I am a joyful writer, but I'malso smart and strategic.
Anyway, so that is it fortoday's episode.
Hopefully you get something outof it.
Listeners, please remember tovisit our website,
(24:17):
writerswithwrinklesnet, so youcan find out how to support the
show by subscribing, followingand recommending.
Also on our website, you canfind the link to ask a question
for an upcoming Ask Beth andLisa episode.
Those are turning out to bevery popular and we love your
questions.
We are back on September 30thwith literary agent Kathy
(24:39):
Armstrong.
She's at Marsal Lion.
So if you want to know whatagents are thinking and talking
about and you totally do for allthe reasons we just said please
join us for that one and untilthen, happy reading, writing and
listening.
Bye, lisa, the best, bye guys.
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