"From Infamy To Freedom" w/ David Ayala

Episode Transcript
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David Ayala (00:15):
Hello,

Omar (00:15):
everyone, and welcome to another episode of Wrong Too
Strong Chicago.
My name is Omar Calvillo.
Uh, and then tonight, uh,tonight, you guys are in for a
treat.
With me, I have David Ayala.
Uh, David just recently gotexonerated after serving almost
42 years in prison.
Uh, And I just like, well, uh, Ilike to to welcome my my brother
to to the show.

Welcome, brother.
Yeah.
Thank you for, uh, hosting meand giving me an opportunity to,
uh, tell my story.

Omar (00:42):
Amen.
Amen.
You know what?
Before we get into it, man, Ijust wanna share how how we we
came in contact.
You know?
Because I I believe even thatwas like like a god thing.
You know?
So, uh, A quick story.
I was at work, and, uh, my mycoworker comes up to me.
He's like, hey, Omar.
Uh, how's that tattoo removalgoing?
Right?
And, uh, hadn't had a tattooremoval session since October.
So, uh, the fact that he justbrought it up out of nowhere,

(01:04):
like, got me thinking.
Like, you know maybe I shouldlook into it.
So I text the guy that worksthere and he's like, man, we're
gonna have a tattoo removal thethe following day, which was
Tuesday.
So I ended up going.
I'm sitting there, and, uh, thatday, their system wasn't
working.
So usually, they have you, like,uh, scan in through a a QR code
with your phone.
So it wasn't working, so theythey they ended up walking
around asking people's names.

(01:25):
So I'm sitting there, and, uh,this brother was sitting.
There was a table and then somechairs down this way.
And when they asked him hisname, he said David Ayala.
And when he said that name,like, just the way that you said
it, brother, I don't know.
It was, like, with someauthority.
I'm like, man.
Like, I know that name.
You know?
Like, I I grew up in 78.
You know?
I'm 45 years old.

(01:46):
So growing up in the eightiesand nineties, that was a a name
that that I knew, that I hadheard of, But I I I didn't know
the face.
You know?
So to be honest, I don't know ifyou know this.
I don't think I told you, but Igoogled you.
Like, I grabbed my phone.
I'm like, man.
No way no way is is the sameguy.
So I Googled, you know, DavidAyala, and sure enough, man, the
article came up how in, uh,December I think November Or

(02:08):
December.
I think you finally got out inDecember.
Right?
Yeah.
We

were released December fourteenth 2023, me and
my cousin, Jimmy So to.
And, uh, we had served 42 yearsof wrongful imprisonment, and,
uh, we went through the courtprocess.
And finally, They acknowledgethe fact that we were innocent
men.
You know, we didn't we weren'treleased because of some
technicality.
They forgot to read us a rightor anything like that.

(02:31):
The state acknowledged, uh, theevidence we presented was clear.
We were innocent men, and, uh,they released us.
So Ever since then, it's been 1blessing after another.
You know, a lot of people askme, you know, how am I feeling?
Do I feel, uh, bitter Or angertowards, uh, you know, my years
of false imprisonment, wrongimprisonment, and I'm not.

(02:52):
I I feel blessed.
I feel I feel the Lord is withme.

Omar (02:55):
Amen.
Sound feeling.
Hey, man.
You know what?
Actually, I wanna get to thatpart of the story, but we'll
we'll start usually, we start atthe beginning.
So, man, brother, if you couldtell us, man, because this
podcast goes, like, throughoutthe country.
So maybe if you we'll start up,like, where did you grow up at?
If you could describe theneighborhood, maybe the name of
the neighborhood, and maybe letlet's start off with the early
years.
How was life like for you whenyou were young?

(03:16):
You

know?
Okay.
So I come from the LittleVillage area of Chicago.
Uh, it's better known as 20sixth Street.
And, uh, You know, I was bornand raised there.
We were, uh, when the Mexicanfamily came, which is now
predominantly all Mexicanfamilies, My family is 1 of the
first Mexican families that cameto the area.
When we came to the area, therewas Ukrainian Eastern Europeans,

(03:38):
Poles, Ukrainians, Germans.
And, uh, It seemed to me,though, as more Mexican families
are moving in, they were movingout.
They were moving west.
Like, oh, Mexicans are comingin.
We better move out.
So We came there at the earlystages of Little Village
becoming Little Village, um,Mexican neighborhood.
And, uh, I went to grade schoolthere, And my whole life was

(03:59):
there.
As a child, we played in thestreet.
This is, uh, back in the earlyseventies when kids were playing
on the streets.
Climbing trees.
Our our pastime was jumpingroofs.
Garage roofs.
That's what that was our thatwas our fun times.
We'll jump roofs, went to schoolthere.
Little village was, um, a greatcommunity, uh, great Mexican

(04:21):
community.
Lot of pride in that that area.
Okay.

Omar (04:24):
Now how about, like, in in in in in the home?
How are things at home?
Was mom, dad in the picture?
You have brothers, sisters thatgrowing up?

How does that look?
So we had so I grew up on Theeastern part of Little Village.
And, uh, you know, we had astrong family, uh, unit.
You know, we ate dinnertogether, Uh, as a family, and
then my parents divorced when Iwas 9 years old.
So that kinda, like, broke upour family unit.
So when my parents divorced, Youknow, my siblings, my my 3

(04:51):
brothers, and my sister, mymother, I decided to go with my
father.
And so we moved To the otherpart of, uh, 20 sixth Street,
the other which was completelike a whole different, uh, area
for us.
And so when I went there, I wasnew there To that area, but, you
know, I got used to the areareal quick and, you know, so
that was my second, uh, part ofthe childhood.

(05:13):
But I always had friends on theother side of 20 sixth Street.
So 20 sixth Street is a goodarea.
Uh, you know, uh, there's it's agang area as well.
So when you say you're on thisside of 26 or that side of 26,
it it tells if you're gangaffiliated.
Well, I grew up on the otherside, and then I moved to this
side.
I didn't have any problemscoming to the new neighborhood

(05:33):
because I still was young.
I made friends there right away.
So it was, um, even though, youknow, divorce is ugly thing on
the family, Uh, we still had astrong family unit.
Okay.
Even

Omar (05:43):
though you guys were apart, you still, like, spend
time with both, I guess.
And

Yeah.
So, you know, uh, you know, Thethe the bad part was, you know,
I see my siblings only.
My father had visitation rightson weekends, so they would come
over on weekends.
But I stayed with my fatherthrough those years.
You know, the the hard partsright after the divorce.
But, uh, you know, coming to anew neighborhood, uh, It was it
was it was a change.
It was a different sort ofchange because I didn't know the

(06:07):
streets or anything, but, youknow, like I said, so this was a
time in in, uh, in those dayswhere, You know, we didn't have
video games.
We weren't on a computer.
We weren't stuck on, uh,electronics.
We were climbing trees.
In the wintertime in Chicago,For people who don't know, in
the wintertime when you're ayoung kid, we used to skeech.
Right.
Skeech skeeching is when you youyou run a a band of car that's

(06:30):
coming down the street, Probablylike a 1 way street, and then
you grab the bumper, and youjust you you like, you're
skiing.
And we used to do that.
Sometimes the car Guys would letus, and sometimes they try to
stop, but that was our fun.
That was our pastime.
We did physical stuff.
We weren't, uh, this is beforecomputers and all that stuff.
Okay.
No.
Yeah.

Omar (06:47):
Yeah.
I remember too.
Yes.
The bad ones were were the onesthat would take off on you when
they knew

you Yeah.
They would take off.
Okay.
They're gonna get mad at you.
Yeah.
I

Omar (06:55):
remember 1 time we jumped on the back of a UPS truck.
Just so and, man, the guy tookoff.
He took all the stops.
He didn't even stop, man.
We're like, holy smokes.
Right?
Then we we rolled up, but, uh,Okay.
So you're growing up then.
You said you were about 9, 10,probably when you moved.
Okay.
So how does that life look foryou or, like, going into your
teenage years?
You know?
Like, uh, how does life beginto, uh, Uh, look

out there.
Okay.
So we my family so my familycomes from Mexico.
You know, Guanajuato, Leon,Mexico.
Okay.
And so I would we would everysummer, we would go visit, um,
my family there.
And when I was there, I I seenthese little shoeshine boys in
the plaza.
They were shining shoes, And Iwas watching them, and I was I
was studying them.
So I came back to when we cameback to Chicago, I got a

(07:36):
shoeshine box.
And I was a young kid.
Like, I was 11 years old.
I started shining shoes, and Iwill go to the bars.
And, like, past 9 o'clock, thefirst time I went in the bar,
they're like, hey.
You're a kid.
You can't be in here.
I said, I'm Alfonso's son.
My father was a well known guyin the area, very well
respected.
You know, he was a good man,kept his word.

(07:57):
Everybody respected him, so theylet me go in the bars.
And so as a young kid, you know,I've seen a lot of things in
those bars.
You know?
But, You know, I know how tomind my business, keep my mouth
shut.
I got the respect of all the menin that bar, in all those bars,
because I was a respectable guy.
I knew right away when I walkedin the bar, I could look, I

(08:17):
could scan the crowd.
Oh, I'm going to that guy.
That guy seems to have themoney.
He's a he's he's a big shot.
I'm gonna go shine his shoes.
I'm gonna get a big tip.
So this was my childhood beingexposed to that sort of things,
Which, um, some people may frownupon, but for me, it was a
learning experience, and it was,uh, part of part of my Part of

(08:37):
my life at that time.

Omar (08:38):
Okay.
But even at that age, like, athat hustle in you, you know,
trying to make some money.
Ain't no wrong wrong with that.
You know, gotta start somewhere.
But, uh, it's Okay.
So you so you're there.
You're observing that that, uh,what was going on in these bars
back then?
This was what?
Like, in the seventies?

Or Yeah.
This was in the early seventies.
So I don't know If the viewersor the listeners have heard, uh,
that they've seen that movie,the Bronx, uh, Bronx Tale.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the little boy witnessed, uh,Uh, a murder that happened on
the street, and the cops came,and he kept his mouth shut.
I had an incident similar tothat.
Uh, you know, some guy got intoa barroom bra.
He got stabbed up.

(09:11):
The police came immediately.
They grabbed me because I'm akid.
They fit they they thought theyassumed that I was gonna give
some information.
You know, I kept my mouth shutand, uh, seemed like after that,
everybody's noticed that theylove me.
I was welcome even more.
So from there, shiny shoes.
Next thing I knew, I was parkingtheir cars.
Parked the cars for them andthen doing errands for them and

(09:32):
different things like that thatI was making my own way as a
kid.
You know, some people could lookat it and say that's no way to,
you know, for a child to be, andmaybe and maybe not.
But that was my story, and thatwas my life.

Omar (09:44):
Okay.
Now what what, led you to that?
Do you have somebody, let's say,maybe, like, another kid you age
that was doing that, or this wasall you?
This was all, like, vision, thisis what I'm gonna do.

Like This was my vision.
So my father my father was, uh,somebody who was not gonna spoil
me.
You know, if I wanted some extramoney in my pocket, you go earn
it because, you know, he cameup, uh, you know, working the
docks in Chicago.
Uh, and so he was like, uh, youknow, he had money.
My father had money.
But, you know, for me, he wasnot gonna spoil me, make me a

(10:14):
brat.
So if I wanted some extra moneyI always like dressing good.
And so if I wanted some extraclothes, extra shoes, whatever,
go.
I'll make my money.
And I realized how I can dothat, and I just I was a
observant young person.
So I observe the scenario andthink of things of how I could I
cut make a few dollars in mypocket, and that's what I did.

(10:35):
Okay.
Got

Omar (10:36):
it.
So you're there doing that.
What eventually leads you, like,to to go into the streets
eventually out there in in that,There

we go.
We're we're at we moved on 20sixth Street.
We moved on 20 sixth Streetitself.
So most people live on 20 fifthor 20 seventh.
We lived on the CommercialStreet right on 20 sixth Street.
My father opened a clothingstore.
It was a popular clothing store,Alfonso's, uh, clothing store,
And he sold khaki pants, and hewas 1 of the first stores that

(11:03):
had that style of pantsavailable.
In that area on little on 20sixth Street in Little Village,
No 1 had that that style ofclothes, and it was a popular
style of clothes.
So we had people coming fromboth ends of 20 sixth Street to
that store.
We lived above the store.
So For for if you lived on 20sixth Street, the commercial
area, the nearest park is 4 or 5blocks away.

(11:23):
And so, You know, I was running20 sixth Street.
I was running the streets of 20sixth Street itself.
That was my playground.
Because to go 4 or 5 blocks inthe wintertime, everybody knows
in Chicago, It is cold.
Yeah.
The hot comes down.
The wind's blowing.
So I was running around 20 sixthStreet, and then, uh, met some
guys there, And then we werehanging out, and that's that's

(11:45):
how I started my early life.
Okay.

Omar (11:47):
And, like like, a what what age was that?
Like,

when then?
So I would say 13, 14, 15 yearsold.
Okay.
That

Omar (11:53):
age right there.
Alright.
No.
No.
No.
Back then, how were things,like, in the streets?
I know, like, nowadays,obviously, there's all These
guns and stuff, was it just,like, fist fighting?
Like, how were things look, uh,looking out there, I guess, back
then?

Like, for someone who For somebody who gets drawn
in or joins, uh, the gang life,it can happen, uh, different
ways.
Sometimes, like, um, you're ayounger person, and you see
older guys, they seem to havethe money, fancy cars, the good
girls.
You wanna This is the role modelthat exposed to a lot of people.

(12:25):
You know, we didn't have otherrole models.
This was our role model, and soyou kinda wanna emulate that
person.
And for other people I know somepeople in the neighborhood.
For us, we were listening todisco music.
We were dressing up Kinda likeSaturday night fever.
Okay.
You know, like, those kind ofclothes, polyester clothes.
In those days, that's that wasthe style.
We had some people in ourneighborhood that were wearing

(12:46):
blue jeans, Rock T shirts.
So in a gang neighborhood, ifyou see a person wearing a
concert T shirt or something,you would assume he's not a gang
member.
That's not the attire of a gangmember.
Well, these guys in ourneighborhood, all they wanna do
is smoke weed in front of theirporch in the summertime.
So People rival gangs will come,and if they didn't see anybody

(13:08):
else hanging on the street, theystart shooting at those guys.
And those guys were like, hey,man.
We're just out here We haven'twe're sitting on our porch.
We're being shot at.
We're being shot.
We're tired.
Now we're gonna fight thoseguys.
So they some guys get drawn intoit Without even trying, and it
just it so happens.
You know?
The only people that, uh, as faras the youth groups That chose

(13:29):
not to be in a gang life werepeople that their I would say
their parents had a a tight reinon them Where they would send
them to sports or even themilitary.
ROTC, police explorers,something different.
So for me, my personalexperience, I wasn't exposed to
any of that.
I was exposed to other things.

(13:50):
So you you you know, you don'tYou experience what you know,
and that's that was myexperience, the other way.
Gotcha.

Omar (13:57):
Alright.
So, Eventually, we're we'regonna get into, like, what led
you behind bars.
So maybe I don't know if youcould share what what happens,
like, Right right before thatthat incident, I guess.
Okay.

So, uh, my family you know, some some people From
the Chicago area, they'rethey're familiar with my family.
My older brother, uh, I lost myolder brother to, uh, gang
violence, my brother Alfonso.
He was killed when he was 17years old, You know, due to gang
life, uh, I was still livingwith my father.
Eventually, my father waskilled, you know, associated

(14:29):
with, uh, You know, alleged drugactivity, he was killed.
And so when, uh, after he afterhe was, uh, killed, you know, he
passed away, I was living on myown, And, you know, life for me
was fast, a fast lane.
You know, everything was fast.
And, uh, I think that, you know,at that time that, like, Things
that were important to me thenare not important to me now.

(14:51):
You know, I changed.
I kinda matured.
My priorities changed andeverything.
But back then, I was a flashyguy, You know?
And I was a cocky guy.
And, like, my philosophy, mythoughts were, you know, if you
pay an attorney enough money,You could beat any case.
So, like, um, I wasn't concernedof police harassment.
Police harassed me a lot, youknow, and they didn't like a

(15:12):
young cocky guy.
And so 1 thing I I I learnedlater on in life, you don't, you
know, you don't, um, you don'tflash yourself at them because
then you make yourself a target.
And you're a target for thingsyou didn't even do.
You know, you're being you'rebeing harassed for things you
didn't even do because, uh, theyfeel like They feel like we're
gonna we're gonna we're gonnateach you a lesson.
You know?

(15:33):
Like, um, when I was involved ina lifestyle, 3 times, the police
picked me up As a young guy, ittook me to a rival neighborhood
and left me there in thesummertime, 2 blocks or 1 block
away from a group of guys there,and they actually said, look.
We got A guy down the down theroad.
And so, like, back then, Ididn't know enough to take down
their their the police car, uh,serial number or anything like

(15:56):
that.
So this was my experience withthe law, and so I didn't respect
the law.
You know?
Later on, I I I came to respectthe law, you know, as an adult,
You know, because, um, you youknow, there's been a lot of
wrongs in Chicago.
Anybody knows these, you know,these police setting guys up and
things like that.
I think for myself, being aflashy guy, flashy jewelry and
everything like that, I kindamade, uh, uh, myself a target.

(16:19):
Yeah.
You know?
So which eventually led to myarrest.
You know, it was no coincidencethat, you know, they didn't like
me.
And, uh, we were charged for 2murders and attempted murder For
a case that happened, 2 innocentpeople got killed, and, uh, some
guy got, uh, shot.
And so, uh, you know, I wentthrough the system and and was,
uh, convicted.

(16:40):
It was, um, sometimes the peopleare familiar with the judicial
system.
Uh, sometimes it just it comesdown to the sort of jury you
have.
We had a, uh, like, a olderwhite jury that seemed like they
just wanted to just find usguilty.
You know?
Not of the actual crime of, uh,the state attorney was, you
know, kept emphasizing the gangthe gang thing.
If you wanted gangs to run youryour city, You know, uh, find

(17:03):
these guys not guilty and stuffstuff like that.
Not based on evidence.
You know?

Omar (17:07):
Yeah.
Okay.
Gotcha.

So for the people that had experience with the
judicial system, uh, okay.
I'll give an example.
Uh, when I was in Cook Countyjail, you know, there was a lot
of people, a lot of Mexican, youknow, uh, Spanish speaking
people.
They didn't know any English,and, uh, they were lost.
And so if if you couldn't afforda private attorney, you had to
depend on a public defender.

(17:30):
So the public defender you know,uh, there's only a certain
number of public defenders,maybe 10 at the most, and they
might have 1500 cases.
And so anybody who knows if youever been charged with a case or
you're familiar with the thesystem, judicial system.
You know, to get properrepresentation, you need a
lawyer that's gonna really dothe groundwork.

(17:52):
Find witnesses.
Sometimes it's hard to find awitness because you you have to
scour the neighborhood to find awitness.
If you're a public defender andyou have 300 cases, there's no
way possible that you could do aproper representation.
So a lot of people will cop outbecause if you're facing 10
years, they say, we'll give you1 year.
And you know you're innocent,but you just wanna get this case

(18:14):
behind you to continue withlife, people were copping out.
So the judicial system was eyeopening experience for me and
just living it and learning itand, uh, seeing, uh, it's really
it's it's not a fair system herein the United States.
It's really in in Chicagocertainly.
It's not.

Omar (18:32):
Right.
And then then you experiencedthat first hand.
And the bad thing is, like, youmentioned those guys that, Let's
say they cop out to a year, thenI might just wanna get out, but
that begins, like, a a cycle forthem too.
Right?
Because now they got a record,and that makes it easier for
them to just come right back in,

man.
Yeah.
Because the it's like, uh, thescale is is weighed against them
because some guys lose theirjob.
Some people, they try to getback in the workforce.
They have that again, uh, youknow, that that conviction
against them.
And so some people, you know,uh, the recidivism is higher
because the opportunities areless.

(19:05):
Now now with the reentryprograms and so forth, it's it
they they're understanding it'smuch easier cost wise to help a
guy than to just incarceratehim.
Incarceration costs much higherthe cost would it be to give him
an education.
Right.
My co defendant, Jimmy So to,uh, he's he's well known within

(19:26):
the the the community becausehe, uh, was able to get a a a
bachelor's degree through theNorthwestern, uh, prison project
in Stateville Prison, and, uh,he just recently graduated.
Before we were released inDecember, he had a graduation,
and he is pursuing a law degree.
And, um, his interest and hispassion is to not forget the

(19:49):
people that were left behind.
Uh, falsely imprisoned guys,wrongly imprisoned guys, and to
be an advocate for them, a voicefor them, because that's the
difference between freedom andlanguishing years in prison.
If you have uh, support base toto help you navigate.
You know, for, uh, for me andmyself, you know, my my prison

(20:10):
story, you know, took a lot oftwists and turns.
You know, I did 17 years inisolation.
I did, uh, for people notfamiliar, there was a the state
of Illinois, uh, spent, like,82000000 or something like that
building a supermax prison inSouthern Illinois.
And this was during, um, acrossthe country, it was during a a
boom.

(20:30):
Supermax building supermax ineach individual state and, uh,
housing people there for longperiods of time.
And so, you know, I sufferedyears of, uh, severe isolation.
And, uh, you know, a human beingis not made to be put in a a box
like that.
You know?
Uh, for 14 and a half years, Ididn't have a phone call, you
know, in that prison.
And so when they bring you thephone, they say, mister Ayala,

(20:53):
you have a phone call.
You know that means there's adeath in your family because
you're not gonna get a phonecall any other kind of way.
So to work on your case underthose conditions, it's
impossible.
You cannot.
And, you know, in that prison,what we were but we were
suffering.
What, we endured in that prison.
No human being should ever haveto endure that.
So that was my experience.

(21:14):
Uh, I didn't have theopportunities for education that
my code defendant did, had I hadI been able to be having those
things, I would've I would've Iwould've thrived like he's
thriving.
You know?
That was my other story.
So,

Omar (21:28):
man, could could you give us a little bit more
explanation, I guess, how didyou were in a cell?
Like, what?
You never came out?
Like So this How

did that look?
So the way they designed theprison was for the most severe
confinement and isolationperiod.
It was, uh, they call it a pod.
Each pod consists of 5 cellsdownstairs and 5 cells upstairs.
And, uh, I went years, literallyyears, talking to my neighbor
and never seeing what he lookedlike.

(21:56):
Never could I can't even imaginewhat this guy looked like
because, uh, we weren't we werekept from each other, uh, so
severely.
And, um, you know, later on, theUnited Nations and Human Rights
Commission, uh, said that theirfinding showed that that prison
far exceeded, uh, the criteriafor, uh, torture, human torture.

(22:17):
And this is what, uh, Iexperienced for all those years.
I I was sent to that prisonbefore, I mean, the the week it
opened and literally to the dayit closed.
And the day it closed, uh, wewere all put on buses, and I
finally seen my neighbor, and Ifinally looked at his face.
I looked into his face, and Iseen anguish and and, you know,

(22:37):
the suffering that he wentthrough, like, we all went
through.
I I I'm still experiencing theaftereffects of that because,
um, you know, being housedsince, you know, uh, deprived,
uh, a hug.
You know?
Everyone could tell you no.
Since I've been out, I feel likehugging everybody.
Know, this is I'm just catchingup on human contact that I was
deprived for all those years.

(22:58):
Man.

Omar (22:59):
Yeah.
That that that's crazy.
That that's a lot.
Like, uh, the Bible says thatit's not good for man to be
alone.
So that is like a like apunishment.
So, Uh, man, how did you do it,like, to keep your sanity, I
guess?
Like, what what what stuff didthey allow you to in in your
cell, like, to maybe keep yourmind, I guess, active, busy?

So in that prison, they deprive you for basically
both stinks.
So you have to come to knowyourself.
You have to you have to findyour strength or rise above your
conditions or or succumb tothem.
So, like, I noticed you have alot of guys that, uh, develop
psychosis there.
You know?
Schizophrenia, you know, allkinda whatever you can think of.

(23:39):
They they were suffering thatbecause they weren't made to be
held in those conditions forlong periods of time, and and me
myself as well.
You know?
I suffered, you know you know,like, I would have a visit.
And, you know, visit all thevisits behind glass, so you
can't you can't even havecontact.
And, you know, my visits wouldsay, like, you're you're quiet.
Why are you why are you soreserved?
It's because I had the ideas inmy brain, but I couldn't I

(24:03):
couldn't articulate them.
I couldn't vocalize them becauseI wasn't used to, uh, talking to
a a human person.
You know?
And we were deprived of that.
And so, uh, like, the day thatthey released us all from that
prison, the reason why theyreally they they closed that
prison down because the governorsaid that it was it was, uh, it

(24:23):
was torture of us, mentaltorture, physical torture of us,
and and it was also, uh, it wasnot, uh, it was not cost
efficient to keep his housethere.
So the director of the prison,the order of the prison closed,
the officers union, thecorrectional officers union of
that area fought.
They they put a court injunctionto keep that prison open because

(24:44):
they they that that prison wasbuilt in a in the most rural
county of Illinois.
It was nothing in thatcommunity.
So that community was aneconomic boom to that area.
You know, people would wouldcome down to visit and stay in
the hotel there or go to thelocal coffee shop or whatever
without the without the the theprisoners there and their
families coming to visit them,there was nothing else in that

(25:07):
in that community.
So the officers unit, uh, theythreatened a judge.
They said, look.
You're up for reelection in 6months.
If you rule that the prisonshould be closed, we'll vote you
out of office.
But he had no legal basis to tokeep that prison open.
Not when the governor and notwhen the the prison director is

(25:27):
saying to close that prison.
So now they fought it all theway to the end when the judge
finally decided, look.
I have no, uh, legal basis tokeep this prison open.
We're closing the prison.
So we were put on buses.
All of a sudden, we're all puton buses.
And, you know, like, we sufferedsensory deprivation.

(25:47):
So this is the first time in 14and a half years I'm smelling
the smell of diesel fumes andseeing sights.
And all my senses were suddenlyactivated because we were they
were suppressed for all thoseyears.
Now we're seeing a sky without,uh, a chain of barbed wires, uh,
uh, on on on on the roof there.

(26:08):
And so we're seeing all thesethings, and so it was a good
experience.
A lot of people on the buseswere getting, uh, motion
sickness.
They were vomiting because weweren't used to being on a bus
and and that motion.
And so, uh, they sent us toPontiac, which was a less severe
lockdown, and then they send meout of state.
It was my I've I've been, uh,the state of Illinois department

(26:28):
of corrections sent me to 3different states.
They did not want me in thestate of Illinois.
And so I was sent to New Mexico.
I was sent to Nevada, and I wassent to Utah.
And when my appeal finally camethrough, they brought me from
Utah and sent me to Cook CountyJail.

Omar (26:44):
Man.
Yeah.
So That that that's a lot.
And that that was Tams.
Right?
The Supermax?
Was that?
What what what year did thatclose?
Uh,

what year was that?
So TAMS closed it was open 2008,and it closed in, uh, December
2013.
So in TAMS, you had guys whowere developed the ability to
cope with those severeconditions and the guys who
didn't.
And the guys who didn't weredisruptive.
They would yell on the tear.

(27:12):
They would disturb ourconversations.
If if if 2 guys were having aconversation, uh, they want
attention.
They would they would disturbit.
So there was a recipe for copingand a recipe for for for not
having peace.
The recipe for not having peacethe recipe for for for success,
coping with this, withmaintaining your sanity for me

(27:35):
and I and I know, uh, observedthis of others was keeping the
same sleep patterns.
So, you know, exercising,reading, meditating, and praying
because prayer was to salvationfor, uh, many of us.
You know, we would sit down.
We we went to the yard.
Our yard, it's a misnomerbecause it's just a concrete

(27:56):
little box.
There's no grass there.
You know?
I spent 17 years on concrete,and when they finally released
me to a regular prison withgrass, and I took my shoes off
and and took my sock off.
I was walking on grass.
I picked up a daisy.
I smelled the daisy, and peopleare looking at me like this guy
must be crazy.
But, you know, for a person whois deprived of feeling, uh,

(28:18):
earth or grass, that's that'swhat's that's what you're gonna
do.
You're gonna you're gonna marvelat it.
And so, like, um, for me,myself, to keep my sanity, you
know, I would go outside, getfresh air.
Even though it wasn't grass, itwas a concrete box, and just,
you know, uh, meditate, say someprayers.
You know?

(28:38):
Ask for ask for strength, uh,through God.
Okay.
That's that's what saved me.
Man.
So

Omar (28:45):
how does how does God come in into the picture in your
life?
Like, uh, did did you like,growing up, was God involved in
your life, or Did it happen,like, in prison?
Like, how how does God play arole, like, in your life, I
guess, through throughout theyears?
So

for most Mexican families, you know, we we were
Catholic, and so we went throughthe rituals of, you know,
confirmation, you know,communion, all that stuff.
But, uh, you know, like, uh, theCatholic church, we attended
Catholic church.
At that time, I wasn't gettinganything out of it.
Nothing's stimulating.
I couldn't remember 1, uh,simple sermon.
But because that was our cultureand that was our customs, that's

(29:21):
what we went to.
And, um, so in prison, you know,like, a chaplain will come see
you.
If you request a chaplain,they'll come.
But, uh, for me, like, there wasa lot of guys in prison that I
met throughout the years thatprofessed to be Christian, and
it would actually try toprophesize to you or preach to
you.
And, yeah, I would observe thatperson's behavior.

(29:43):
If you come to me and you'retelling me that I'm doing the
wrong things that or listen toscripture in the daytime, but at
nighttime, you're asking me,hey.
Who has weed here?
Or who has a a a smut magazine,a porn magazine?
I I I consider you a hypocrite.
So I I experienced that with alot of individuals.
And then you had the theopposite, uh, side of the

(30:06):
spectrum where you had guys whoreally not only talk the talk,
they walk the walk.
You know, you they they wouldthey would watch the tongue
because, you know, uh, and theBible says that too.
You know?
Watch what you say.
You know?
Yeah.
And so we could tell who'ssincere and who wasn't sincere.
But, um, as far as my myspiritual awakening, it was from
myself.
It wasn't from a preacher comingto talk to me.

(30:28):
It wasn't even from the Bible.
You know, when I when I when Iread the Bible, uh, I read the
book of Revelations.
And at that time, I said, well,these guys must have been high
in some hallucinogenic.
This this a 7 horn thing, Ididn't understand it.
Yeah.
You know, I I said, like, wow.
These guys moved behind peyoteor something when they wrote
this.
And the old testament, it seemedlike violent.
And then later on when when whenI had a different different

(30:51):
eyes, like like like Paul andSaul.
You know?
Yeah.
Your eyes, you open up and andand you wanna learn.
And so your other recourse is,you know, you turn to a higher
power.
Whatever your higher power is.
You know?
And and that's your salvationthere.

Omar (31:06):
So so do you experience that?
Where you at when

you experienced that?
In TAMS.
Okay.
TAMS Supermax.
Alright.
Before temps Supermax, you know,like, for me, uh, in the
prisons, you know, I was theprisons were wide open at that
time.
What I mean by wide open, like,uh, you weren't locked in the
cell.
You weren't confined in theregular prison cell.
The doors were open.
You could run around.
You run around the cell house.
Some people are getting tomischief in a in a prison or

(31:32):
whatever you were doing, youdidn't have the time.
You weren't forced upon you atime where you had to reflect.
You know, for people who did goto church and stuff, it's
because they really they madethat strong choice.
If your if your if your day isoccupied with other activities
and and that prison system wasthat way, then that's what you
would do.

(31:53):
Uh, for me, I was forced uponreflection, self reflection and
stuff through the lockdownyears.
Right.

Omar (31:59):
Man.
Okay.
So you're there, and then youwent to Pontiac.
You you're going through allthese states.
In the states, were you, like,uh, did they still have you by
yourself, or were you able tobe, like, with regular

population?
Or Okay.
So so when they send you out ofstate, it it's a it's a it's
like a punishment.
You're sent under the stigma ofthe worst of the worst.
So they say, uh, the state ofIllinois is declaring you to be
incorrigible.
So we don't want you in ourstate system.
We're gonna send you to theother state system.
So when I was in Pontiac at,like, 2 30 in the morning, a

(32:33):
whole grip of police officers,you know, correction officers
came to my cell.
They said, look.
Uh, you you got 1 minute, getdressed, you're leaving here.
And I'm like, where am I going?
They're like, well, we can'ttell you this for security
reasons, but, uh, you're gonnaget on the airplane.
And, uh, so I was like, okay.
Okay.
So I've heard of this before.
You know, they send you out ofstate.
Yeah.
Am I going, like, somewhere hot,Texas, I've been going somewhere

(32:56):
cold like Alaska.
They said we can't tell youanything.
Somewhere in the middle.
So now my mind is racing, youknow, just speeding, where am I
going?
You know, I'm gonna be away frommy family.
I can't bring any of my propertywith me.
Uh, and now it's really gonna bedifficult for me to work on my
case.
So this day, you you know, I wastotally discombobulated.

(33:17):
And, uh, the federal marshalscome, and they give you some
clothes, orange hoodie, they puta waist shack around you.
Uh, they said, look.
We're we're traveling incognito.
So that means that, uh, theother passengers don't know
you're a prisoner, and so youkeep your hands in your pocket,
put the long sleeve over yourhandcuffs.
Uh, but anybody could see thatthere's 2 marshals on either

(33:37):
side of me.
But so anyway so while I am, uh,having all these thoughts race
through my mind, uh, theyescorted me to the transport
car, uh, right right therewithin the prison, and the 2
officers went to go talk.
And and I was sitting in theback of the back of the the the
transport, uh, vehicle, and Iwas just thinking, wow.
Where where am I going?

(33:58):
And there was a there was a ladythere, and she looked very
peaceful.
And and I I just happened tolook at her, and it seemed like
her image just came to me.
Like, came, like like, uh, it'shard to describe where she just
kinda, like, came forward to mewithout even walking.
It's like, and she told me, godis with you.
And I just felt, uh, very, veryemotionally touched.

(34:22):
Mhmm.
I felt a a sense of peace.
Now I'm not even worried whereI'm going.
I feel like, uh, God is with me.
God has my back.
So I close my eyes.
I I put my head down to to topray, to thank.
Thank God, and I looked up, and,uh, she was gone.
She just disappeared.
So when the transport officerscame, I said, listen, uh, I like
to thank that lady.
You know, she gave me some somesome comforting words.

(34:44):
He said, they told me, whatlady?
I said, the the lady who wasjust here, they're like, there's
no lady here, bro.
There's there's no female on thestaff here.
They don't come to to nextshift.
I said, wait.
There was a lady who was justhere.
I I wanna thank her.
They they looked at me like Iwas crazy.
Right then and there, I know itwas divine intervention.
I know it was It was angelalmost there.

(35:04):
Angel.
It was an angel.

Omar (35:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And just them words give youthat peace, uh, to just I

had the peace.
And then I was comforted.
Wherever whatever is gonnahappen, I I I know I'm not doing
this alone.
I know that God has my back.

Omar (35:17):
Man, and that help you on on your journey, I guess, to

comforted.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Man.
So these were experiences that,uh, I experienced firsthand.
And so this was, um, at thetime, I didn't realize it, but
these were, like, buildingblocks of, uh, my my belief and
my faith in God.
Yeah.
You

Omar (35:35):
know what?
I know you mentioned the good.
I know, uh, before we weretalking on the phone, and you
mentioned some of the darknessthat you witnessed and, uh,
like, spiritually, I guess.
I know if there's a story maybeyou wanna share about Yeah.

You know, like So I was in a prison.
Uh, it's a old prison, uh, atMenard Correctional Center.
This prison was built, like, 2years after the the the civil
war ended, 18 65.
no, way.
Is that old?
It's that old.
It's a old decrepit prison.
People have died in that prison.
I think spirits of fallen peoplewere in that prison.
And, uh, so 1 night, uh, I waslaying down I was laying back in

(36:08):
bed.
I wasn't sleeping and, uh, felta force lift me, like, jackknife
me up.
Like, lift lift me up in, uh, inmy in position.
And I felt so I tell people thatI've shared a story with, it's
kinda like that movie, uh,predator where, uh, the the
demon was able to have, like,heat waves, like, clear heat

(36:29):
waves coming at me, and I feltthis heat wave.
And I smelled a strong smell ofsulfur in the cells, it's
terrible smell.
And so when this when I wasconfronted with this heat, you
know, uh, my first reaction was,like, you know, like, challenge
this thing.
I was swearing at f you.
I ain't scared of you.
Come on.
And it shook me.
Uh, and I said, f you.
I'm not scared, and it shook memore than it got hotter.

(36:50):
And then I said I realized tomyself, I can't beat this force.
Whatever this thing is, I'venever experienced this before.
Um, I'm experiencing somethingstrange here, and I can't beat
it on my own.
And something in my memory bank.
And I've never been somebody whocould easily, uh, recite
scripture.
Something in my mind and therecesses of my mind told me to

(37:10):
say the words.
In the name of Jesus Christ, Icast away from you, demon.
And I said those words, thesmell vacuumed out, the the
smell, the heat, uh, vanished,and it just dropped me back in
bed.
I was like, I was stunned.
I was like, wow.
And I I hesitated to tellanybody that story because when
most people, you know,imprisoned, you start losing

(37:31):
your mind, you know, some kindof way.
That sounds like an incrediblestory.
But 1 thing I learned sharingthat testimony with other
believers later, they they havealso have everybody has, uh, uh,
some sort of, uh, story likethat in their life, a situation
that similar situation.
Maybe not that extreme, butsomething similar.
Yeah.
I mean,

Omar (37:51):
it's it's very real.
You know?
Like, Jesus, when when he came,he had his encounter with
demons.
You know?
So it's it's it's it's biblical.
And, like, in the book ofEphesians, it says to put on the
full armor of God.
So, you know, like, when you goto battle, we're in a spiritual
battle, especially as asfollowers of Christ, man.
So it's real.
I've had my own encounters, youknow, spiritually, so
Definitely.
It's not something that you just

dismiss, man.
And So for a person like me sofor a person like me, you know,
like, uh, to to to really, uh,you know, exhibit my beliefs, it
was a struggle because, youknow, forgiving people for
wrongs against me or my family,it didn't it didn't come easy to
me.
I still struggle with thingslike that, but but I know that

(38:34):
the power of forgiveness is muchstronger than the power of
anger.
That's that's no doubt in mymind.
These things are are are areexperiences that I've had to
solidify my own personal belief.
And so, like, um, I've I feelthat my release after 42 years
is is for a purpose.
It's not random.
It's not just coincidental.

(38:55):
There there's a there's acalling that I feel that that
I'm experiencing in my life now.
Amen.
No.

Omar (39:00):
No.
You well, let's let let me askyou.
Like, I know you mentionedearlier about, uh, they didn't
give you time to work on yourcase, like, throughout, uh, your
time in TAMS.
Were you working on your case?
Did you have somebody on theoutside working on your case?
Like, how how did that lookthroughout the years, I guess?

So, like, so, like, uh, I said, look.
So we're in Southern Illinois.
We were in the furthest mostpart of the state.
We were close to Paducah,Kentucky.
So the people that had TVs weregetting Kentucky, uh, TV
station, not even Illinoisstations.
We're in the most rural area,and we didn't have access to
legal materials.
So if you didn't know the law,if you wanted a case law, you

(39:36):
had to know the case law.
If if you've never hadexperience studying the law,
you'd you had no way of ofputting it together.
So finally, I was able toassemble a legal team, uh, to
get my to get my appeal startgoing.
And that attorney, he did whathe could, but, ultimately, it
was later to my attorney,Jennifer Bongene and her law

(39:57):
group that really, uh, won myfreedom.
They did investigative work.
You know, I can't thank themenough.
And so through this law group,this law group was passionate.
Um, it wasn't a case where justa regular case.
They knew the injustice of thiscase, and we were able to
present that to the courts wherethe assistant state attorney
actually told the judge, yourhonor, you know, if I felt these

(40:20):
men were guilty, even a littlebit, we will fight this to the
end.
These are innocent men.
We we have now been exposed toevidence that we never knew
about before.
So we we are not, uh, opposingtheir petition.
And the judge said, you know, hehad no other choice.
He was like, if the stateattorney is acknowledging the
fact that these are innocentmen, we're gonna grant we're
gonna vacate their guiltyconviction.

(40:41):
And so, you know, I I would saythis.
When I was in Cook County Jail,they isolated me again.
They had me again in isolationafter being free in other state.
Uh, initially, when every timethey send me out of state, they
send me to 3 states, they wouldlock me down.
They sent me to Nevada.
They had me in, uh,administrative segregation,

(41:02):
which was a, uh, just alockdown, uh, situation for 2
years.
And I and I didn't have any, uh,disciplinary reports.
No.
No.
I didn't, uh, violate any of therules.
But because when they stigmatizeit, how they stigmatize me, you
know, they they assumed theworst of you, and they say
you're the worst of the worst.
So Tams prison, when it wasinitially built, it was under

(41:24):
the moniker, uh, it's for theworst of the worst.
We need a prison for the worstof the worst.
And then that prison was only atmax capacity halfway filled.
So went from needing a prisonfrom the worst of the worst to
needing, quote, unquote, theworst of the worst for the
prisoners.
Uh-huh.
So they were sending anybodythere.
People that they didn't reallyfit the criteria of what that

(41:47):
prison should have been, uh,for.
Uh, they were just filling thebeds there because they have to
justify, uh, the operation ofthat prison, they're sending
people there.
But, um, when I was in CookCounty Jail, you know, uh, we we
were we were told that, like,uh, the state would be vacating,
uh, uh, this conviction, and,you know, we had, like, 5

(42:10):
continuances.
So continuances when you have acourt, uh, date and you go and
they have a status hearing whereeverybody both sides of the the
defense and the prosecutor telljudge were here doing this is
what's going on with this.
And after after the fourth 1,you know, like, my faith was
wavering.
It was being tested, severelytested.

(42:32):
You know?
And so I said a prayer at night.
I said, lord, if you know, Ifeel like you abandoned me.
You know?
And, uh, this is how I'm feelingin my heart.
And if you haven't abandoned me,send me a sign.
I need a sign.
I'm searching.
Uh, I'm I'm grasping for a sign.
Well, the next day, the officercame to my cell and gave me a

(42:53):
Christmas gift bag.
It was from Willow CreekCommunity Church, and it was a
little and they had in this giftbag, uh, a little bag of
cookies, little bag of chips,but, uh, which was nice if you
don't have those things in inthe in the Cook County Jail
because the prices of commissaryis so high.
Anybody could tell you that.
But what really what reallytouched me was the little

(43:15):
spiritual book.
They gave me a spiritual book.
And I knew that that gift bagwas the sign that I was asking
for.
And so my anxiety just left.
Once again, I was comforted, andI know my prayer was answered.
And and we went to court acouple days later, and that's
when every and that's when they,uh, they dropped the charges.

Omar (43:37):
Uh, so so this happened at Cook Cook Cook County.
Right?
When the guy give you the bag?
Yeah.
Okay, man.
So could could you take usthrough that moment, man?
You're in the courtroom.
Now now before we get there, letlet me ask you this.
Your your initial sentence whatwas your initial sentence?
You had no chance of getting

out?
I had natural life withoutparole, which which like, uh,
that means you're gonna spendthe rest of life in prison.
You're gonna languish.
You're gonna die in prison.
If you cannot, uh, fight tooverturn that sentence, that's
that's that's your destiny.
That's that's your faith for therest of your life.
So they're just telling youyou're gonna die here in prison.

(44:11):
And, you know, I was locked up42 years.
Uh, my cousin Jimmy Soto and I,uh, we made history in Illinois.
We are the longest serving, uh,prisoners that that were
exonerated.
42 years.
No 1 has served that much timeas we as we have and and being
exonerated.
So, I mean, it's not the sort ofhistory that I'm proud of or

(44:32):
that I like, but that wasimposed on me.
You know?
Um, from the very beginning of,uh, from the beginning of my
indictment where the stateattorney, uh, was beating guys
up, coercing them to makestatements, everything
throughout this whole, uh,ordeal was unfair.
If I had a fair, honestprosecution, then, you know, we

(44:55):
would have been found innocentway back then, but it the the
the cards were stacked againstus through, uh, through wrong
prosecutors, police officers,and and everything from the very
beginning.
But so, um, the judge, when hewas when he was making
announcement, he made, like, along speech, and I was standing,
I was wait I was, like, like,shaking, like, you know, waving

(45:17):
back and forth, like, just like,uh, I was staggered because we
didn't know how this thing wouldwould would turn out.
Even though the state attorneysaid he was gonna drop the
charge to vacate the theconviction, my experience with
the legal system was never, uh,favorable.
Never really good.
So I was expecting the worst.
And then, uh, he, you know, hehe, um, he granted our petition,

(45:37):
and we were freed.
And, uh, so now I'm dealing witha whole new world out here, you
know, with all the technologyand everything.
And a couple days later, mybrother took me to a
supermarket, and we're in asupermarket.
And so this is the first time Iencountered scanning scanning
items without, you know, havinga cashier there.

(45:58):
And I was like, you know,because I've never seen that in
a movie, a TV show.
I've this is I've never knewsuch a thing existed.
This is showing me somethingnew.
And so we're having aconversation, my brother and I,
and he's scanning the items, putthem in the bag, put his debit
card in there.
We're walking out the store, andthe security guy car uh, guy
came and stopped us.
He's like, I have to check thebag.
And I pull out item and lookedat the item, scanned the item,

(46:22):
and my brother told him, hey.
Listen.
Uh, I have a receipt for thatitem.
It's here on the receipt.
And the store security guylooked at the receipt and
matched it up against the item,and he said, you're good.
He turned around and walkedaway.
You know, he didn't apologize.
He didn't even say have a goodnight.
So, like, something triggered inmy mind.
Yeah.
You know?
This was after, uh, coming outof being falsely accused for 42

(46:44):
years and about 2 days, and nowyou're accusing us of stealing.
That's what it was.
He accused of stealing.
And so my brother's like, hey.
Uh, he seemed that, like, Iwanted something in my mind
triggered, and I wanted to like,a zone.
I was looking at the floor.
I was just shaking my head.
You know?
I was I was upset.
I was frustrated.
And he's like, hey.
This happens all the time.

(47:05):
I said, well, that may be thecase.
But if you if you've been lockedup for 42 years for something
you did not do and you're outfor 2 days and now somebody's
telling you, you know, I have tocheck your bag.
You know, that does something toyou.
You know?
Uh, it it makes you feel likehere here we go all over again.
You know?
It just triggers somethingreally, uh, something really

(47:25):
deep within me.
Yeah.
Does

Omar (47:27):
And it makes sense, man, because you that's been, like,
your history, your life has beenwith that.
And Anything.
Like, a lot of things couldtrigger, like like,
subconsciously, you you don'teven know.
The person that's with you don'teven know, but you already feel
a certain way towards anybody,like, with a badge or

authority.
Right?
Exactly.
So I would say for my for mypersonal journey within the the
decades I was in prison, youknow, like, uh, through through
the years of differentexperiences, the lockdown
experience where you where youcome into yourself, you you
reflect.
Like, somewhere along the line,your priorities change.
You know?
Your perspective changes.

(48:02):
You know?
Like, guys that I once werefought before in a former life
became some of my best friends.
The guys are great guys.
You know, I I I got to know him.
I consider them some of my greatfriends.
Once upon a time, we would've wewould've been attacking each
other out there in the street.
How how did that

Omar (48:17):
change, uh, happen?
How how quickly or how slow wasthat, uh,

transition for you?
Okay.
I would say if you could equateit to, let's say, people that
are racial.
If you're part of 1 race andsomeone's part of another race,
you were you were in doctrine tothink, well, that race right
there is no good.
This is how they live.
There are dirty people.
Whatever they think.
Yeah.
And then, uh, beyond yourcontrol, let's say you're in

(48:42):
prison and you're in the same,uh, small area with them, and
you interact with them, and youlisten to them, and you hear
their sense of humor, and youhear what they their interests
are, and they're just likeyours.
And so you say, you know what?
You're not a strange, uh, uh,being.
You're just like me.
We're at this and and for andfor for us, the guys who are
fighting their own race, yousay, you're my brother.

(49:03):
You're you're my raza.
You're you're you're also mybrother.
It's just unfortunate that at aearly age, you know, people took
these these turns in life where,you know, where we just fight
each other, maybe it's a warriorour warrior blood in us or
something.
But, uh, for me, being lockeddown, you you're locked down.
We don't have much of anything.
In Tams, we didn't have much ofanything.

(49:25):
And so whatever little we had,you know, uh, we will share.
Hey, man.
I got a little bit of coffeehere, bro.
And then you see these peopleoffer this kindness to you, and
you say, you know what?
Bro, you're a you're a gooddude, man.
I don't know why we waste ourlife fighting each other Yeah.
You know, and and vice versa.
We we help we're like in thesame boat.
Yeah.
We're in the same boat.
And, you know, so that's sospeaking about the the the boat

(49:49):
analogy, uh, when I was in CookCounty Jail and I was going
through the stress of theuncertainty of whether or not I
would be granting my friend.
This is my chance.
This is the appellate courtruled give us evidentiary
hearing.
This is it.
This is my my Your last is yourlast chance.
Right?
Yeah.
So I had read a book, the lifeof pie.
And this book for peoplefamiliar with it, it's a story

(50:09):
of this guy that he who was on aboat, and the boat went down, he
was on a life raft.
And the book is kinda sillybecause he's on a boat with a
tiger.
But so for me, my life, I feltlike when I was going through
that process, I was on a liferaft.
Uh, the life raft was how Ilooked at my attorneys.
That's my life, my lifeline.
And I was on the ocean, and theocean was my life.

(50:32):
And some days, the ocean waspeaceful and tranquil.
That was my day.
Some days, my were peaceful.
And other days, which most ofthe days were turbulent.
The seas were choppy.
The boat was being almostcapsized up and down.
That was my my process goingthrough the continuances and the
court process.
And I was on that life boatwithout a oar and without

(50:54):
control of the rudder.
So I didn't see any land insight when I was on that boat.
And, you know, like so the landwould have been my freedom.
And so I was at the mercy ofnature.
You know?
And so, like, all these thingswere a test of my strength and
my test of my faith.
The the officers in the CookCounty Jail gave me a hard time

(51:16):
because the way they had me, uh,isolated.
I was isolated from thepopulation.
Right.
I couldn't see anybody.
Literally, when if if I wasgoing in there, well, they would
stop all the movement.
And they you know, this is howthey categorize me.
And so, uh, you know, I was Iwas I was complaining, asserting
my rights to to go to the yard,and they find you know, these
were during the summer, youknow, July, August, where it was

(51:39):
80 degree temperature, and Iwanted to go outside.
I wanted fresh air becauseanybody who was in Cook County
Jail, they know the air isstale.
And, you know, I needed I neededfresh air, uh, oxygen to my
brain.
And this is when I was beingtested.
My faith was being tested, andthey finally let me go to the
yard.
I I sat down on a concretebasketball court, and, you know,

(52:01):
the maintenance crew hadn't,mowed the lawn.
So the the blades of grass werewere were they were high.
And, you know, like, I sat down,and I right away, I I noticed
all the sounds of nature.
I heard birds singing.
I was like, thank you, god.
You're letting the birds sing abeautiful, uh, melody to me.
And I looked at the grass, andthe grass was waving.

(52:22):
And I felt like god is saying,look here.
Nature's welcoming you here.
I wave at the grass, and thebushes will will swing.
And I thought, uh, bushes arewaving hello to me.
And I waved back at them, and Ijust bowed my head in prayer and
thank God for giving me theseblessings.
The officer looked at me like,is this guy bugging up?
Is he, like, is he having somekind of episode?

(52:43):
I just told the officer, hey.
Look, man.
This is this is the Lord givingme a a a nice welcome out here.
And that's how I I folk anytimethat I felt stressed through the
ordeal I was going through, uh,you know, I found peace, uh,
they turned into God.

Omar (52:57):
Amen.
Amen.
No.
That's good.
Now I know you mentioned, youknow, coming out and having that
bad experience, you know, whenyou go into the store with the
security guard.
Now what what's been some of thethe good things, maybe some
highlights from from coming out?
Like, what's maybe 1 of yourfavorite things or memorable so
far?
I mean, I know it's only been ashort time.
But

so, like, for me so, like, most people say, like,
what foods have you been eatingor or or something like that.
Those weren't the pleasures thatthat the what what really has
touched me, they showed me thatI'm blessed, was a good family
unit.
You know, people who sincerelycare for me, who hug me, my
friends.
I have friends, uh, male friend.
I tell them I love you.

(53:35):
Hey.
I love you, brother.
And I mean that.
You know what I mean?
So these are these arefriendships.
They are lifelong friendships.
Nothing could change that forme.
You know?
And, you know, we these guyswere with me through the
furnace.
You know?
They were doing me through thefire.
And so I've I've realized noteverybody has that.
Right.
So, you know, so even though wesuffered, you know, years of

(53:55):
wrongful imprisonment, you know,it showed me, you know, you find
out this is a country song.
You find out who your friendsare, and and that's how I find
out who my who my true brothersare, who my true friends are.
You know?
All to all to, uh, the spectrumof, uh, different races,
different age groups.
You know?
And so the blessings for me fornow are simple things.

(54:17):
Simple things.
You know?
Uh, uh, hugging a tree.
I hug 3 trees right away.
I wanna hug a tree.
You know?
I I look at, uh, even deadleaves and just marvel at their
at their beauty of of of a leaf.
You know?
So, like, um, you know, I'm notstuck on eating steak and
lobster or having wine orsomething like that.
I would rather just right nowfor me, my pleasures are just

(54:39):
simple pleasures.
You know?
1 of the great things is, youknow, being able to pull up a
movie when you watch Netflix orsomething.
Sometimes it just wasn't therebefore.
Right.
I was like, wow.
This is great.
I could watch the movie I wanton command.
Uh, so those things, that's it'svery enjoyable for me.
You ain't

Omar (54:54):
gotta go get the the VCR.
You know?

The old beta max.
You don't have to get the bigclunky

Omar (54:59):
A lot of people probably never heard of that, man.
But, uh, man, it's okay.
So you're out.
You're making uh, you mentionedthese friends.
Uh, I imagine a lot of them alsodid some time with you.
That's what you're talkingabout,

students from the outside who who became his
friends, uh, I didn't have thatexposure.
So most of the guys I knew wereeither from my neighborhood from
back in the day or people I didtime with.
And so, uh, I've been out.
They've been they've been out ifthey served any prison time for
years and they alreadyestablished themselves.
So a frustrating thing for me,you know, at my age, I'm 60.

(55:40):
I got locked up when I was 18.
At this age, people are gettingready to retire.
And now I am, uh, establishingmy life.
You know?
Learning things, you know, uh,acquiring my own home, mortgage
payments, insurance payments,stuff like this, and just
catching up on, uh, it's like,for me, it's frustrating because
I wanna I wanna super speed.

(56:02):
I wanna fast forward.
Everybody said, look.
It took us 30 years to get thishome.
It took us this amount of timeto get this car.
You wanted to do this.
Well, at my age, I don't have Idon't know how many years.
I'm a healthy person.
I don't have health issues, butstill, the reality is I'm at
this age.
The state took these years awayfrom me.
And now I I'm trying to get myfooting to catch up, to be a a

(56:24):
normal person.
When you come out of prison, youdon't even have a credit score.
Right.
And so, you know, like, how doyou get a credit score?
You know, so all these thingsare difficulties and obstacles
that, you know, hinders us, but,you know, I'm I'm learning, and
I'm navigating through throughthat stuff.
Gotcha.
Okay.

Omar (56:42):
So what what what are, like, maybe, like, some short
term goals?
You know?
Like, some things that okay.
You got this freedom.
What do you see yourself doing?
Like like, let's say in the next6 months, 1 year, like, short
term, I guess.
Like

So okay.
So so I found, uh, peace at achurch that that my sister
introduced me to, I feel, uh,uplifted.
That's how I spend my Sunday.
And so, you know, I go to churchin on that day right there.
For my short term my short termgoals, my my my goal is to get a
home for me and, uh, my daughterand my son, hopefully, 1 day, we

(57:15):
could connect.
He and I haven't had greatcontact like him, my daughter
and I, and get a home.
You know, like, I always said mydream was to have a a simple
home with a little patch ofgrass up front.
I'll be the old guy chasing thekids off my grass, keeping
keeping my lawn up.
You know?
Something simple.
You know?
Get a a a job.

(57:36):
You know, there's there's jobofferings to me, uh, you know,
and I'm weighing my options.
I wanna make a difference insomebody's life.
I wanna be able to catch someyoung guy who that could be the
difference between him taking 1path in life, which will be, uh,
prison, gangs, uh, drugs, orwhatever, violence, or, uh,

(57:56):
having a better life.
Because 1 thing I noticed like,when I was in high school and
all the brainiacs, I said, thoseguys are squares.
Look at them.
They're just studying books.
I thought we were the cool guys.
But if you think about it, theseare the guys that got houses
before we had house.
They had nice cars.
So who's the stupid or squareguy?
It's not them.

(58:17):
It was us thinking that theywere lame.
We were actually lame for fortaking different paths in life.
Shortcuts.
There are no shortcuts like thatin life.
You know?
None at all.
You

Omar (58:26):
know?
Gotcha.
So for any, like like, youngguys that that are out there
that are gonna be hearing this,what what was, like do you have
a message

for them, man?
Like I will say this.
For anybody that's involved inthe gang life, I will tell you
this.
The the if you're in a gang, andyou think those other guys are
your rivals, and you think thatyou're gonna pick up, let's say,
an assault rifle and shoot them.
You could shoot them.
You could shoot 5, 6, 7 of them.
You'll never exterminate them,and they will never exterminate

(58:55):
your group.
So it's frivolous.
It's fruitless.
It's a waste of time.
And not only are you thatthere's victims.
Your mother is the victimbecause when you go to jail, she
suffers.
Your children, if you have them,your your siblings are gonna
suffer.
Your family's gonna suffer.
You're they're gonna you'regonna incur legal bills, and the
people that you harm are aregonna be affected.

(59:17):
So it's not something good orpositive.
Nothing good comes from that.
There's victims.
You you yourself are a victim.
You might have shot that guy,but you're a victim.
You're a victim of the system.
You're gonna be categorized as aconvicted felon, and your your
family is gonna have to, uh, paythese legal fees, and they're
gonna be high.
Trust me on that.

(59:38):
And that person that you harm,his family is suffering.
So what is what is the point ofdoing something so senseless
when you could do something muchpositive?
You know, when I met you, Omar,we went to that the center, I
was getting a tattoo removaltoo, and I noticed a group of
young kids, teenage kids sittingat the table.
And I asked the lady, what arethey doing here?
What is this all about?

(59:58):
This looks interesting to me.
This looks like something.
And I looked at those youngkids.
They were Hispanic kids, and Ifelt so so proud of them that
they instead of being on thestreet, getting high, running
the streets, getting into abunch of, uh, mischief, they
were there.
They were at the table on theday where they could have been
running the streets, and I saidto myself, they need more of

(01:00:21):
this.
With these sort of programs,they could take the kids off the
street, and you could make adifference.
Uh, young people at, uh,developmental, uh, stages in
their life are impressionable.
Yeah.
And so what they are exposed tomakes the impressions on them.
And if the only role models isdrug dealers or something, um,

(01:00:41):
so that's gonna be the peoplethey wanna they wanna emulate.
But if you if you give themsomething better than that so I
said to myself now, you know,I've been released.
People people know me.
I have a certain, uh, measure ofrespect from these people.
And so and why am I beingrespected?
Because in prison, I alwayscarry myself, keep my word.
I didn't get involved incontroversies.

(01:01:02):
I help people out when peoplecame to prison from my
neighborhood or anybody I couldhelp out, I will help them out.
People remember this.
This is why when I came out,these people were glad to be in
my life because they know whenthe chips are down and we were
in prison, I will I will be Iwill help them however I can.
You know?
If if I got 2 soups, you need 1,I'll give you a soup.
And and they remember thesethings, and now it's like paying

(01:01:25):
forward.
For me, paying it forward wouldbe to help somebody who could
choose the wrong path of life.
And if I can help them not dothat, then then I know that I'm
I'm serving a a good purposeAmen.
Which is what I I believe.

Omar (01:01:38):
No.
No.
That's good.
That's good.
You know what?
You you you mentioned somethingabout food.
Like, my buddy JC, that's theguy who started the the Wrong To
Strong.
And, uh, when we reconnected, Ilost contact with him like,
almost 17 years, let's say,somewhere around there.
And when we reconnected, he saidthat he remembers when he was
down and he didn't have, let'ssay, no money, no commissary,
and I gave him Some food.

(01:01:58):
And it's like the small token ofappreciation.
They said that he remembers.
Like, I remember how you lookedout for me.
And then Sometimes we think it'sthe big things, but, man, maybe
it's the the little thing and inthe midst of a of a hard
situation, you know, that peopleremember.

David Ayala (01:02:12):
Like, when that church gave me that give back,
bro, that was my sign.
I know that was my sign.
And, uh, you know, people say,well, it was a little bag of
cookies and a little bag ofchips.
No.
It was more than that.
It was the sign that I wasseeking.
And so these things these thingssolidify, my faith and my
belief, they're building blocksbecause, um, like I said before,

(01:02:34):
uh, I see in hypocrisy, youknow, to guys to profess to be a
Christian and their and theiractions show otherwise.
But then I see a sincerity.
When I met you, I don't know ifI didn't tell you.
When I looked in your eyes, Iseen a sincerity, and I felt
proud of you.
And I'm still proud of youbecause you're a young, uh,
Latino brother.
You're my brother, and you'redoing something, sending a
message out there, a messagethat needs to be heard.

(01:02:54):
And you're giving us a platformto tell our story in the hopes
that, uh, someone will hear itand think about it.
Just think about it.
Because like I said, if you ifyou think you're gonna be a
gangbanger and you you're doingsomething, you'll never you'll
never in your life eliminate theother group, and they'll never
eliminate your group.
So you're just wasting yourtime.
This is a waste of time.

(01:03:15):
You know?
And you could be doing somethingpositive.
You could get to know thoseguys.
And, no, those those guys ain'tbad.
So why aren't we wasting ourtime fighting each other?
Right.
It's it's senseless.
It's it's senseless.

Omar (01:03:25):
Definitely, man.
No, man.
I'm I'm glad I'm glad we madethat connection.
Like, I mean, I'm glad you'rehere sharing your story.
And, my prayer is that it'llreach somebody, man, somebody
maybe that's heard of you, Beenfollowing you, you know, and
that man, that you give themthat hope, you know, that that
they could turn it around.
Another 1 of my prayers is thatthese podcasts Will make their
way into the prison somehow.
I know guys got tablets andaccess to media where if you

(01:03:48):
had, like, a a a word Uh,something that you will say to
the guys behind bars, like, youyou were there and basically
life with no chance of parole.
Like, what what kept you, Iguess, positive?
What kept you, like, going?
Not throwing the towel.
I'm sure you've seen guys thatTook that other option, threw in
the towel, and just gave up onlife for an you know?

(01:04:09):
So what what what message wouldyou have for them based on your,
uh, experience?

Well, I would say to persevere, to never give up.
Even in the face of adversityand the face of, uh, monumental
challenges, you know, like so mycousin, Jimmy, you know, he from
day 1 always, uh, studied thelaw.
You know?
Instead of spending his money atcommissary, he bought, uh, law
books.
And so, you know, he wasdetermined.

(01:04:33):
He was resilient.
You know?
He persevered.
You know?
He never gave up.
Uh, and so, like, for anybody,let let my story be an example.
It took, you know, 42 years, butso some people resign themselves
to they become complacent.
They they they just give up.
They say, this is it.
This is my destiny.
I'm cool with it.
Uh, I know my routine.

(01:04:54):
3 3 meals a day.
I know this or I know that inprison.
This is what they're becomeinstitutionalized.
But what I would say to thoseguys, you know, you have to put
the effort in to get a goodresult.
You can't just, uh, piggybackoff someone else's, uh, work,
you know, you could, in someinstances, you know, uh, once
upon a time, when there weresentencing juveniles to life

(01:05:17):
without parole, you know, thecourt ruled that was
unconstitutional.
Uh, that didn't mean that youwere, uh, released.
That means you were resentenced.
And so the the the lesson thereis your behavior is gonna
determine whether you're gonnaget out or whether you're gonna,
uh, continued being in prison.
And prison is not fun.
You know?
When I first came to prison, Ithought prison was fun because

(01:05:39):
it was wide open.
Was a lot of things going onback in those days.
Everybody knows this.
You know?
But so now it's more strict.
It's more severe.
But I think that, uh, the stateof Illinois would, uh, allowing,
uh, educational opportunities,that changes people.
This lowers the recidivism rate.
People won't come back becausethey have an alternative,

(01:06:00):
another another way to go.
But for the guys that are areleft behind now with life
sentences like I did look at me.
I had 2 natural life sentencesand 35 years.
So when the first judge, uh,sentences me, how is it possible
to have 2 natural life?
I'm gonna die, come back tolife, die again, and then serve
35 years.
So don't give up.

(01:06:20):
Keep the faith.
Turn turn to god, and he'll behe'll he will give you answers.
If if you if you're guilty or ifyou're innocent, uh, change
change change your life, changeyour perspective, change your
beliefs for the better, and, uh,you'll be a happier person.
If you notice, couple weeks agowhen I was in church, I saw, uh,
uh, the guy that they weresinging some songs, he had a

(01:06:42):
guitar.
He looked like he was euphoric.
He was so happy.
And I told my sister, I want himwith that.
Whatever is making him thathappy, I want to and if you
think about the people who have,uh, some kind of spiritual
belief in their life, they'rethe people who have a twinkle in
their eye.
They're the people who have a aa lightness in the step, and the
people who go the other roundare the people that have stress.

(01:07:03):
The people that serve a darkforce, you're gonna be
miserable.
You're gonna be angry.
You're gonna be if you got a asignificant other, you're gonna
be mad at that person.
You're gonna have arguments.
But when you have somethingpositive in your life, you're
gonna have a twinkle in youreye.
You're gonna you're gonna feel alightness of your spirit.
So I will hope that they theywould come to that realization

(01:07:23):
and that awakening.
Amen.
Amen.

Omar (01:07:25):
Brother, thanks for that, man.
And any any final words, maybeanything you wanted to share,
maybe we didn't get a chance totouch on that you wanna share it
before we close

out?
Well, I would just say that, youknow, like I said, my cousin,
Jimmy Soto, I hope you could doan interview with him.
He could, uh, he could expoundon the the judicial's, uh,
process.
It's the process there.
There's there's a a lot more totalk about as far as that aspect
of it or even, you know, the thethe system coming through the
appeal process and everything.
But for me, you know, uh, I wassubjected to severe isolation.

(01:07:55):
It broke a lot of people.
You know, I'm still strugglingwith, uh, the aftereffects of
that, but, uh, you know, I havemy faith and and that
strengthens me.
And then, uh, I would just hopethat the listeners, you know,
like, uh, they know I I anybodywho knows me, they know I'm not
a phony person.
I'm not a fake person.
I'm not a hypocrite.
Uh, people I say what I feel.
You know?
At 1 once upon a time, you know,like, uh, I wouldn't I wouldn't

(01:08:19):
open up so freely, but I feellike my purpose of my freedom
was granted for a purpose.
I think that was, uh, 1 of thepurpose.
So if you don't mind, Omar, I'dlike to say, uh, a little prayer
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely, man.
Go ahead.
For listeners.
And, uh, I would like to saythis prayer to anybody who's
listening, uh, please, uh,Jesus, open their ears so they

(01:08:40):
could hear and consider mywords.
Consider my experience.
Consider my experiences assomething that was unfortunate,
but some good could come out ofit because this is not random.
So, um, calling upon the HolySpirit to touch the the hearts
and the minds of people who arewavering in their purpose in

(01:09:03):
life, and and let them find abetter path.
1 that's gonna give themhappiness and joy and and and be
a positive force in this worldand and help some some somebody
else.
In Jesus' name, I pray.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Man,

Omar (01:09:16):
that thanks.
Thanks, brother, man.
I'm glad we cross roads, and I'mI'm glad you were able to come
down here, man, uh, share yourstory.
And if you ever wanna do a part2 or there's something else you
like, man, hey.
I wanna share this part of mystory, man.
Definitely, we would love loveto have you back, man.
Thank you, brother.
But but thanks for being here.
And with that, we're gonna getready to to wrap up.
Oh, man.
I I just wanna thank my guestfor being here.

(01:09:38):
Uh, Matthew 4 16 reads, thepeople who sat in darkness have
seen a great light.
And upon those who sat in theregion and shadow of death,
light has dawned.
Alongside David Ayala I'm OmarCalvillo, We are Wrong To
Strong.

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