180. After Charlie Kirk: Embracing Moral Courage and Healthy Conflict with Jonathan Cogburn, LMFT

Just days after Charlie Kirk's assassination, I sit with Texas Marriage and Family Therapist Jonathan Cogburn for what becomes a profound exploration of faith, courage, and finding hope in dark times. Jonathan shares his journey from being apolitical to openly identifying as conservative, inspired by brave voices who showed him there's nothing shameful about his beliefs.

We dive into systems theory concepts like pursuer-distancer patterns that explain both family dynamics and our current cultural moment, discussing how healthy conflict is necessary to prevent accumulated resentment. Jonathan reveals his patient approach to online discourse, treating people as capable of the change he hopes to see, while I grapple with questions of when charity becomes naive.

Our conversation weaves through theological perspectives on human worth, the intersection of therapy and faith, and how Christianity offers a practical framework for living with our flawed nature. We tackle the thorny question of whether consequences for those glorifying violence constitute "cancel culture" or a necessary reset of social norms. This episode captures the wrestling many of us are doing right now - how to maintain hope, express truth, and build bridges while protecting ourselves and those we love.

Jonathan Cogburn is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in West Texas who currently works for an agency that provides a variety of support to school districts in his area  In that role he delivers state-required mental health training to districts, supports rural school counselors and homeless student liaisons, and co-leads a team of licensed professionals and school counselors that respond to crises and disasters. Follow Jonathan @SystemicTexism on X or on Substack

[00:00:00] Start
[01:12:14] Introduction to Jonathan Cogburn
[03:25:16] Context setting: Recording in wake of Charlie Kirk assassination
[07:54:28] Jonathan's journey from apolitical to openly conservative therapist
[11:46:20] Meeting Soad and deciding to put "conservative" in bio
[15:02:58] Discussion of "It's okay to be white" shirt story from vigil
[18:33:05] Conflict as necessary and healthy when conducted properly
[23:18:16] Texas licensing board policies vs. other states
[27:53:13] Success stories of changing minds through patient dialogue
[32:34:38] Alter casting and projective identification concepts
[36:32:19] Pursuer-distancer patterns in parent-child relationships
[41:02:27] Setting boundaries with name-calling in online discourse
[47:18:53] Discussion of reporting tip lines and cancel culture reversal
[55:14:05] Cultural reset and consequences for glorifying violence
[01:03:28] Left's moral framework and externalized decision-making
[01:07:48] Theological perspective on human worth and creation
[01:15:10] God as emotionally differentiated being
[01:19:10] Parenting analogy and relinquishing control
[01:25:43] Substack mission and upcoming school activism article
[01:28:06] Christianity vs. other religious paths and perfectionism
[01:35:10] Evil, satanic cults, and need for moral frameworks
[01:38:52] Closing and contact information

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