How Surrealist Pantser A.S. King Revises Award-Winning Novels

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Have you ever read a book andthought, holy cow, this is
amazing.
How did this author do this?
How did they manage to craftsuch an intricately plotted
complex story?
How did they come up with suchinventive, unusual points of
view and narrative devices andmake them all work?

(00:20):
How did they innovate so much ona technical level and keep me
hooked on a brilliant story allthe way through?
Or maybe you've read a book andthought, wow, I wish I could
write, or in my case, edit abook like this.
This is incredible, and it mightbe beyond me.

(00:40):
Well, that's how I feel when Iread an as King novel.
She is an impressively decoratedauthor of novels for middle
grades, teens, and adults.
She writes these brilliantstories that are surrealist and
puzzling and weird and at thesame time, beautiful and
heartfelt and honest and real.
When I read her books, I seewhat I aspire to be able to help

(01:04):
writers create.
and when I heard her mention inan interview that she loves
revision, I knew I had to bringher on to your next draft and
ask her how does she do it?
How does she take a draft ofsomething like dig, which has
nine points of view and aghostly surrealism, and three
generations of a familyreckoning with race and a
missing person's crime story andrevise that layered complexity

(01:27):
into a novel that wins thehighest award in young adult
literature.
I was delighted when she agreedto join me on the podcast, and
that's the conversation I'mgoing to share with you here.
In it, you'll hear her completerevision process from first
draft to final draft, thefeedback she gets from her
editor at her publishing houseand what it really means to

(01:50):
write and revise a story.
I can't wait to share it withyou.

(02:43):
Welcome to your next draft.
I am so excited for you to hearhow as King revises brilliance
novels.
In order for you to get the mostout of our conversation, there
are a few things you need toknow before I play the tape.
first, her first name is Amy.
In fact, she publishes her YAnovels Under A.S.
King and her middle grade novelsunder Amy Seig King.

(03:05):
Second, I need you to know howawesome she is.
Amy is one of ya fiction's mostdecorated authors.
I could list out so many awardshere, but I'll highlight just
two of my favorites.
She's the only author to win theAmerican Library Association's
Michael L.
Prince Award twice.

(03:26):
I typically describe the PrinceAward to people as the highest
award in young adult literature,but in this case, I can't really
say that because She has alsowon the ALA's Margaret A.
Edwards Award honoring her andher body of work for her
significant and lastingcontribution to young adult
literature.
That's not just for two books,but for her lifetime

(03:46):
achievement, which is arguablyeven higher.
That is by no means all of herawards though.
Scroll through her website andyou'll find just an awe
inspiring collection of awards,starred reviews, and critical
acclaim.
My point is this.
Amy writes good books.
Third, her latest novel iscalled Pick the Lock.

(04:08):
She describes it in five wordsas confined feminist punks smash
patriarchy.
It's a novel about Jane, ateenage girl, though Amy wrote
the book for both teens andadults.
So don't think that Jane's ageconfines this story to the YA
shelves.
Jane's mother Mina is a punksuperstar who tours the world
releasing platinum albums andselling out concerts, And when

(04:30):
she comes home to the Victorianmansion where Jane, her father
and her younger brother live,MIMA, is confined to a system of
pneumatic tubes that runthroughout the house like a
mouse and little plastictunnels.
And Jane would like her motherback.
Fourth.
Amy loves revision.
One thing you'll hear us mentionin our conversation is the table

(04:52):
of contents that Amy creates torevise each of her novels.
If you go to alice slo.com/ 82,you can see a photo of the table
of contents for pick the lock.
Fifth, and this is somewhat lessexciting.
We did have some technicaldifficulties when we were
recording, and so you might hearsome slight variance in audio
quality.
I did my best to clean it all upand I hope that the distortions

(05:14):
are not distracting.
We persevered though, and Ithink the conversation we had
was more than worth it, and Ibelieve that's everything you
need to know.
I won't keep you from the goodstuff any longer.
Without further ado, here's asking.

Amy (05:30):
I talk about revision with kids in schools from age, like
when I say kids, I don't reallymean all kids, but from like
age, first grade, second grade,all the way to grad school.
And when we talk about revision,the amount of people in like the
grad school or undergradspecifically, or even upper high
school that are just looking atyou like, no, when I write it,
it's done right.
And you're like, no, no, no, no,no.

(05:52):
Like, and I, I have to tell themlike, I rewrite texts, I revise
emails sometimes I really likeI, and, and, and then I have to
explain to them that the point,and I, I think this is always
the, the sort of when we'refirst learning and when we're
not writers, right?
We start there.
So when we're not writers andwe're not planning on writing
for the sake of being writers,most people are like, well,

(06:13):
spell check is for editing.
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
That's for misspelled words.
And sometimes grammaticalmistakes, but like, sometimes
spell check's wrong about thattoo.
Um, but also, you know, I saidrevising isn't, I always say
that revising isn't aboutspelling or grammar.
Revising is about making surethat you're saying what you
wanna say yes in the way youwanna say it.

Alice (2) (06:32):
Yes.

Amy (06:32):
And.
And that usually, like again,teachers are always like, oh
yeah, I'm so glad you're sayingthis.
And the kids are like, whatever.
And the students are just like,sure, I guess whatever.
And of course now we have AI andnow we have just so many things
that can, that, that can act asmagical helpers when an actual
effect editors, I'm an editor aswell.
You know, people, people who canlook at work and and see it as a

(06:54):
whole,

Alice (2) (06:54):
right?

Amy (06:55):
Yep.
That's the other cool thing.
You know, a sentence is asentence, an essay, you know, a
paragraph, a sentence.
Those are small, but when yousee it on a whole, that's always
a cool, I mean, that's theskills that you have.
It's the skills that I have, Iguess as a writer, you know who
revises and that it's my ownbooks, but it's sort of, um,
well, not edits, edits.
Obviously I have fantasticeditors, but you know, oh yeah.
And I edit books too.
So it's just nice to be able tohave that big vision.

Alice (07:17):
And AI can't do the thinking for you.
So much of the revision is thethinking.
It's figuring out what you'reactually trying to say.

Amy (07:25):
It's getting dumber too.
Like, I don't know how much youuse, um, speech to text or how
much you use, like watchingwatch.
I don't know how much you'rewatching Autocorrect not correct
things.
What autocorrect does now is it,it just replaces words that make
no sense and it'll throw inwords that make no sense.
And, and like what, there wasno, it was just, it's becoming

(07:45):
random and it's almost likethere's a glitch.
There's a little bug in thesystem.
But when it comes to humans,like we are, I don't wanna say
we're not fallible, you know,we're not fallible like we are,
but like we have a better gripon meaning.

Alice (07:58):
Yes.
I would

Amy (07:58):
say that, that artificial anything would have, and the
meaning is, is the whole pointof writing, which is
interesting.
'cause when people go lazy orthey, they go like, easy more,
whatever that ease is of ai,they, they, they forget what I
believe is the, is the mostimportant part of writing,
right?
Yeah.
Um, which is why, why did youwrite this?

(08:18):
And I know this, like havingdealt with, you know, students
over the years and sort ofsaying, well, this is a really
interesting story.
And like, meaning, someone toldme a story.
Someone took me on a picnic.
They took me out, put me, I puta blanket out, threw some cheese
out.
You can always get me withcheese and uh, always, you can
always snag me with cheese.
Uh, and, and we're sitting thereand you told me a story.

(08:39):
Why do I care?
so why we tell stories?
You know, it's nice to tell astory that's like completely not
related to you, but when thestory's a little bit related to
you, but you don't put the badstuff in there or the more
complicated stuff in there.
I'm not gonna say bad stuff'cause bad immediately goes
black and white, but thecomplicated parts of us as

(08:59):
humans, that's why we readbooks.
We read books to be able to beseen and understood and to see
and understand other people and,and to see that like, oh my
gosh, that happens.
Or Oh my god, you know, like allthose things, right?
And so I would often be like,hmm, you know, what, is this
really what you wanted to do?
Did you really just wanna writea story that was funny?
Ha ha slapstick, slap the knee,and off we go.

(09:20):
Or did you have.
Something to say.
And, and that is the thing.
I think that when I, when I'mdealing with writers, um, and
dealing with, um, even aspire,like, I think, I hate the word
aspiring writers.
Look, if you're writing, thenyou're writing, then you're a
writer.
That's it.
I say this to third graders, Isay it to 70 year olds.
It doesn't matter if you'rewriting, then you're the exact
same as me.
I wrote a thousand and a bittoday and I'll write another

(09:42):
thousand later.
'cause I'm gonna hit 50,000words on this book today if it
kills me.
So it's like, you know, but ifyou're writing, you're a writer.
But why, like, why are youwriting?
There's a reason that everybodywrites a book.
And if the reason is I wannamake a million dollars, that's
weird, uh, to me, right?
Yeah.
Because I haven't, I've writtenlike, you know, I've like
actually written, you know,nearly 30 books I've published

(10:03):
whatever, 15 or 16 books and,um, that has not happened to me
yet.
I have some very pretty awards.
Um, that's really nice.
I'm very, and I'm very honoredby those awards.
Um, but mostly it's a journeyinto yourself.
That's, that's, that's thedeepest and most twee thing.
I may have ever said,

Alice (10:25):
I'm delighted you said it here, but I love it.
I totally get it.
I mean, I'm just thinking aboutif you want to write to make a
million dollars, this feels likeone of the slowest, hardest,
least guaranteed days to make amillion dollars out there.

Amy (10:39):
Alice, I always say this is a weird thing to throw out
there, but since we're talkingI'll pick the lock a little bit
or we mentioned it already.
You know, I talk about what itwas like getting out of, you
know, a really long abusivesituation and um, and I was, I
was like, I was writing books.
That's what I had and I was theonly breadwinner.
So I just had, I had to reallywork and work and work.

(11:00):
So it was sort of like a reallystrange financial situation
where all the pressure was puton me.
So that, of course I couldn'tget out because it was just,
ugh, you know, it was just sodifficult.
And, and the confusion people,most people don't understand the
confusion and the control andhow that works, but I saw an
interview with Cardi B and shewas a stripper and that's how
she got away from her abusivepartner.
And I was like, man, I shouldhave, damn, I should have

(11:22):
myself, I should have reallystarted, I should have thought
of stripping.
'cause this was some long, longjourney to finally be able to go
by.
You know, it took me 29 years.
So it's like.
Definitely should just pickstripping.
Exactly.
Stripping

Alice (11:34):
feels like it'll get you to a million dollars A lot
faster.
A lot

Amy (11:37):
faster.
Yeah.

Alice (11:38):
And with a little bit less, or maybe a different
journey into

Alice (3) (11:40):
yourself.
Like, but

Amy (11:41):
again, like, and that I don't think most, I don't, most
of the writers I meet, right.
Even if they have that idea,even if they're like, ah, you
know, but I wanna be the next,you know, Harry Potter and they,
and then they hand you a bookthat literally is just magic
school.
And you're like, do you, okay.
Like, you know, you're tryingto, to parse it, try and figure
out what, what's the, the realreason because, um, there has to

(12:05):
be a reason beyond making money.
There has to be a reason beyond.
This'll be cool.
And not only that, if that's theonly reason, how do you get to
the end of a draft?
I don't know.
Those people must be differentto me because if I didn't have a
personal stake in a book, Iwouldn't be able to get to the
end.
I'd be like, this is, and that'swhy I have a bunch of books in
my attic.
Like, I'm just like, nah, Idon't care about this book.
This was dumb.
This was a, this was a nicestory.
I was gonna take you on apicnic.

(12:26):
Because I felt that that was,that was what writing was.
'cause I was confused.
I, you know, I wrote, I wroteeight books before I, over 15
years before I was published.
So I was getting five, you know,I got 500 rejection letters
altogether.
I saw a thing the other day, Ithink it was Kwame, talking
about how this book got rejected24 times.
I'm like, 24, man.
Like, It's interesting when you,when you received that many
rejection letters, you'd think,and, and you've written that

(12:47):
many books and the years havegone by.
But the, in the end, the onlyreason to do this is'cause you
need to say something.

Alice (12:54):
Yes.
Yes.
You know, I love that you saythat about why those books are
going to stay in your attic.
you've had people ask you, liketeenagers ask you, why don't you
pull out those books and revisethem?
And you, that's the question inthe back of my mind too.
Like, they're there when theyare the book you're working on,
they feel like the book of yourheart.
Like they feel like the thingyou must do.

(13:14):
Why not go back to them?
I am so fascinated by the factthat those ones don't feel like
the book where you havesomething to say, they're a nice
story, but they're not a thingwhere you have something to say.
Mm-hmm.

Amy (13:25):
Yeah.
Or, or they're like, they don'tfit.
You know, one of the thingsabout like starting writing in
an isolated space, um, and beinglike, again, you know, we have
to go back to when it was, Iwrote my first four novels on a
typewriter.
Right.
So I am, I am of that age.
Right.
So it's sort of, first of allthose that's hard to revise.
I, I don't, I, I, when I lookback at people who wrote and

(13:47):
published before the days ofcopy and paste the simple
things, um, I.
I, I'm, my awe is giant.
I can't even believe people did.
You know, I often have to talkto, I talk, well when I talk to
really young people who aren'twriters, it's really easy to
say.
Like, I always ask in highschools and or younger, I'm
like, Hey, raise your hand ifyou play a sport.
Raise your hand if you play aninstrument.

(14:08):
I played both.
And how long did it take you toput the ball in the hoop?
How long did it take you to makea cello not sound terrible.
And I mean, as a cellist, I cantell you're a former cellist.
I certainly am not a cellistnow.
It was a long time.
It was like over a year.
Right?
And so you have to practice.
And I think that's the onething, um, that agents I think
will tell you as well is likethe amount of people who are
like, this is my first book andit is the best thing ever.

(14:30):
And all this stuff.
I'm so glad that my first bookwas like on 12 different types
of paper.
'cause I was so broke on a, ona, from a typewriter.
'cause I couldn't ha I couldn'tsend it to anybody.
Thank God.
Um, you know, it was, it waswhat it was and it's okay.
I had to learn how to be awriter.
Even if you got an Englishdegree, you have to learn how to
be a writer.
It's'cause you have to learnyourself.
It's about yourself.

(14:50):
Right?
Same as being an artist, right.
You can, if you want, you canput something on canvas with
some paint, but eventually yougotta figure out what your
paintings look like.
Why are they different when yougo to a museum, you're not just
like, oh, these all look thesame, uh, and then leave.
They all look different.
Um, and, and it's becauseartists found their own way to
express what they wanted to say.
Right.
Um, and so that's why a lot ofthose books in the attic can't

(15:14):
be, you know, can't be publishednow.
And then there's the isolation,right?
Which I just, I started with,but here I am back at the
isolation lane.
I was in a space where.
I was reading adult books, I wasreading, you know, like a salmon
rushie I was reading, and justrandom stuff whether Margaret
Atwood, you know, a lot ofVirginia Wolf, um, a lot of
poetry, um, a lot of old poetry,Rumi Coleman Banks, uh,

(15:37):
translations of Rumi, um, thatkind of stuff.
And, um, I didn't really knowwhat, what a sellable book a
marketable book looked like.
I know it sounds weird, butlike, I came into and they
ended, when I came in intopublishing, it was in Ya.
I had never read a ya book.

(15:58):
I didn't, except for, you know,the one that actually inspired
me to be a writer, which I'mholding up now, which is
Confessions of a Teenage Baboonby Paul Zadel, which I stole.
And this is the stolen versionfrom my junior high school.
Sold that in 1983.
But, um, like, you know, I'dnever read a YA book and so I
was like, oh, what's this yastuff?
And I read one book that wasAbso Alice.

(16:19):
It was so terrible.
And I threw it across the room.
I was, and I cried.
I was like, I can't believe Ijust spent 15 years working hard
on this dream.
And I landed in the same bin asthat book.
And I know it's terrible, butit's true.
Like, you know, we've all readbooks that are just like, oh my
gosh, how, how did anybody Andwhat a cute, and it was a story.
It definitely had no depth.
It had no, it had nothing.
It was just like a, it was, andit was, it had Irish stuff in it

(16:42):
that was wrong.
Oh.
And I wanted to, I don't, don'tget me started there.
So, so I was like, all right.
You know, and then I readOctavian, uh, the, the
astonishing, uh, life ofOctavian.
Nothing talk
about night and day in terms ofa book that you don't wanna be
on the shelf with.
And, you know, and Tobin is a friend now.
So somebody, it's somethinglike, oh, oh, thank God.

(17:05):
Like, oh, like, oh, what arelief I can do.
I can do comp complex and, andyou know, sort of things in this
space, which was great.
And then, then and from there Itook off, um, and was able to,
because I was given permission,because I understood and I
understood that the assignmentwas, this isn't for young
adults, this is about youngadults.
And all I ever wanted to dosince I read that Pulse and Dell

(17:25):
book was help adults understandteenagers.
So if I could write crossoverbooks, which is what the New
York Times called me in morethan one review, which was just,
I didn't even ask'em to.
Um, but it was perfect.
Now, the, the, the imperfectpart of that is that adults will
be like, I'm not reading that.
And you're just like, oh, that'sa shame.
Right?
And you know, I get a lot of, Ican't read your books.
And I'm like, Hmm, you clearlyhaven't read my books.

(17:47):
'cause they're pretty.
You, you might not get'em.
Sorry.
Like, but um, but anyway, yeah.
So people forget as well that,you know, sometimes something's
just not good enough.
It happens to me all the time onCam again, if we, if we look at
canvases, do you think everycanvas that an artist draws on
or paints on is gonna be greatand it's gonna be like, oh,
this's going to the gallery?
No, half the time we paint over'em and paint over'em and paint

(18:10):
over'em.
Like, until we find somethingthat we like or we don't like,
we just, like, now I use one ofmy, one of my old canvases for
just like, testing colors on it.
Maybe one day it'll be like, oh,this is a really cool canvas.
'cause I've tested lots ofcolors on it, but I just, I just
gave up on it.
I was like, I'm just give up onthis thing.

Alice (18:26):
We're not gonna try on this one anymore.
We threw enough of our mentalenergy at this and you know,
we're gonna make more progressif we set that one aside and
start something fresh.

Amy (18:33):
Correct.
And that really is a big, that'sa big message to writers that I
would have to give as a, as a,you know, as an advisor in MFA
programs and just be like,listen, I know this is the book
of your heart.
I understand that.
You need to put it aside.
It's too in your heart.
Also, oftentimes, once someonelearns the, the, the art of
revision, I have seen so manyover revised books to the point

(18:55):
where, and you'll get this'causeyou're an editor, you ever get
those books that are so revisedand so tight and still don't
make it, still don't work.
Yep.
I hate to hate to say it, butstill don't work.
But if you were to touch anypart of it, the entire thing
would shatter.
Yep, yep, yep.
Because it's been so worked on,whether it's workshopped,
whether it's with other editors,you know, whatever it is, it's
just been so workshopped that.

(19:15):
It, it's been, it's like, it'sthe classic, you know, beating a
dead horse.
Like it's, it's time to eitherstep away or start, like
literally rewrite it from thebeginning.
I have a good friend and that'show, that's her revision
process.
She's, when she told me this, itwas actually on a panel.
I just, I just looked at herlike, what?
She's like, oh yeah, I juststart completely over.
I'm like, well, what do you dowith the first draft?
Well, I mean, I might use it forreference.

(19:36):
What, what, but everybody hastheir own way and her books are
beautiful.
So it's like, you know,

Alice (19:42):
that's amazing.
That's so courageous.

Amy (19:44):
I think about my Revision Pro.
'cause my first draft process, Imean, this book, the one that
I'm working on now would be alittle different in that I've
had it sort of plotted out on mywall over here for a while and,
and sort of, I, and it's a, it'sa middle grade book and it's a,
it's a prequel, so it'sconnected to another book.
So it has to have, it has tofollow certain rules, but like,
pick the lock or dig or any ofthose, you know, bigger, Semi

(20:07):
surreal or, or, or whatever mystyle is.
Um, uh, those are all writtenwith the surrealist method.
So when I use the surrealistmethod, I sit down at this desk
and I have no idea what's gonnacome outta me.
I channel I just open my crownchakra and go, all right, I
don't know who's telling me thisstory, but let's go.
And I can tell from yesterday,you know, yesterday's writing,
like, I'm like, okay, this iswhere we are.
This is the scene.

(20:27):
So that's, so I'm at leastgrounded in scenes and, and
parts and things like that.
But then random stuff happens,and it happens in this book too.
I had to call a geologist friendof mine yesterday and be like,
okay, how does this happen?
Because this happened.
Can we make, can, let's throwsome stuff at the wall and
figure out can this is, is thispossible the best answer?
Yes.
So now I just have to figure outhow to write it in.

(20:49):
Right.
But with those bigger books,like that is a real trick.
And that's why I use the, thosetables of contents that you
mentioned in the, in your emailto me to organize.
Like at the moment I have thevery, it's funny you've never
seen when I don't think, andit's nation nascent space.
You won't, like, this is likethe first one for this book,
right?
Very simple.

Alice (21:07):
Very

Amy (21:08):
simple.

Alice (21:08):
Oh man.
It's just one page.

Amy (21:09):
Well, it's'cause it's only at this point 133.
Right?
And it's also, it's small andyou know, I usually I space'em
out.
I'll show you the other one.
But this is for this book.
And the only right now, and theonly thing I'm pointing out are
the.
Are the sort of chapters writtenfrom a different perspective
we'll say.
Right.
So that's what I'm doing withthat.
Yeah.
And then also it's helping mesee just how often I need them.

(21:30):
Like, I see this, this was megoing, oops, we forgot to put
one in here or in this area,right?
Yep.
Yep.
So just note

Alice (21:36):
for the audio, I'm, I'm looking at this one page that
has this list of, it looks likea table of contents.
It's exactly like a table ofcontents.
I'm gonna guess that there areprobably like 30 or 40 entries
on that list.
And there are four that arehighlighted in pink and they
can, I can see they're likesections through the, the story
and there's some margin notes inthere.
But it's very tight.
It's very compact.

(21:57):
Like it doesn't even take thefull page.

Amy (21:58):
No.
And that's only because it's anearly one, but it's also,'cause
it's a smaller book.
And I didn't put the spacing.
Now I did bring what I usuallydo with the table of content.
So, okay, so there I am, I'mwriting a book like, like pick
the lock, right?
And I'm, I'm like, oh wow, okay,now there's a rat.
Okay, so there's a characterthat's a rat.
I wonder, wow, okay.
I wonder who that is.
And so, I don't know.

(22:18):
I don't know.
And that's the best part of theway I, of how I write is that in
a way a reader.
'cause people are like, it's,it's funny.
People are like, Hmm, you're aslow start, but you're worth it.
And I'm like, okay, thanks.
Weird.
But like also I have to set thescene.
The exposition is a veryimportant part of setting a
scene.
And I appreciate that everybodythinks that action should come
first, or this or that.
It's amazing how many peoplethink that you should be doing a

(22:40):
thing the way that they think.
And it's just so fun.
And it's always, there's somany.
Like they don't realize you'relike the 12th person who said
this to me and said somethingentirely different than the last
11.
But anyway, um, so what Iusually do, like when I have
like with with pick the lock,the same thing that you just
described, 133 pages into a bookI would be already grappling

(23:01):
with.
Okay.
I still dunno who this personis, right.
And I don't know who it, but I'mstill, but, but, but the, it
still has something to say, thisrat or this character or
whatever.
Um, and then I start to colorcode certain things, but I, I
also have to work out dates and,and get a calendar and, and sort
of print it all out.
So it's just, I wish I havehere, like I'm, again, this is
set in 1980 and it's set inthese two months, so I know I'm

(23:24):
showing a calendar of some weirdmarks all over.
Yeah.
It's just a straight upcalendar.

Alice (23:28):
All the days laid out.
It's,

Amy (23:29):
yeah.
Yeah.
And you can do that on theinternet.
It'll give you a calendar forany year that you need.
So if you're going in, in, backin history, that's cool.
Um, sadly, it'll also give youthe weather for back then.
Don't look at that.
'cause that'll really screw upeverything you ever wanted to do
in a book.
Oh man.
You don't have to be completelyaccurate unless you're writing
nonfiction.
But anyway, sometimes theneurodivergence in me goes, Hey,
maybe you should, no, don't lookat the weather.

(23:51):
Just don't you need it to rainfor two days straight.
'cause the flood has to ha youknow, the, the creek has to
flood and blah, blah, blah.
Just don't look at the weather'cause stop.
But anyway, um, so like when I'mrevising, you know, um, I don't
even know what I was talkingabout just then.
I have no idea.
But when I'm revising, it's sortof.
I ha it's a puzzle.
And um, I think it was JasonReynolds and I, when we were

(24:12):
talking, um, when I reallyswitched about like, we are both
the puzzle makers and the puzzlesolvers and we are, and, and so
that's how I write.
Um, and it's not that I'm waryof anybody who knows exactly
what's gonna like happen in thebook, but I also, for me, that
bores me.
I, I can't, I can't.
I like a good surprise.
Like I said, suddenly there'sthis thing in this story and I'm
like, well, that's not on thewall.

(24:33):
I've never taught about it andwhat's, what's gonna happen now?
I'm like, mm mm Um, but a lotof, you know, and I also read a
lot while I'm writing, so I'vebeen reading about Love Canal
'cause this whole book's abouttoxic waste and um.
And that probably is the reasonthat this big sinkhole opened
up.
And I'm like, oh, great.
Now we're gonna run anothersinkhole.
It's like, and I keep repeatingthemes, sinkhole and tunnels,

(24:54):
and what, clearly, I liveunderground, so my dream, I,

Alice (24:58):
So I've got like, okay, I have so many directions that I
wanna go here.
Where does the editing processstart for you?
Like what, what is, is there adelineation between the writing
process and the editing process?
When are you revising?
When are you no longer writing,you're revising?

Amy (25:12):
Uh, great question.
Um, it used to be very, I don'twanna say separate, but it was,
it was very separate, not juston typewriters, but on computers
too.
It used to be very push out thatfirst draft and then, you know,
revise like crazy.
But over the years, it hasreally become revised.
As I go, I stop and I have tofix things or I, I use the, the

(25:34):
review pane on Word, and I, Iuse notes, all those.
I, I put comments and they justwrecked it.
Ugh.
Microsoft, if I could only callyou, um, they just wrecked it.
But at the same time, it's stillpossible.
But I leave myself notes, um,like, I still don't know this
character's name.
I'm calling him this for now.
Find this, you know, or, Hey, Ireally like this notepad idea.

(25:55):
I wrote this one yesterday.
I really love this notepad.
We're at page 200.
Let's go.
When we, when we do our quickrevision, like, so I have, I'll
do a quick one.
Um, make sure this character hasa notepad in his back pocket all
the time.
So I'll just add three or fourmentions of this, you know,
thing.
Um, so I'm always revising, I'malways thinking about that final
draft because like everybodyelse, I would really like to get

(26:16):
it perfect on the first go, butnobody does.
It'd be so nice.

Alice (3) (26:18):
It'd be so nice.

Amy (26:19):
It'd be great.
But, um, so it's kind of, it'skind of all the time.
But then, but then I do have avery strict and a very, um, I
have a very.
Strict revision process, whichis once I feel the book is done,
I will then go through, um,usually two times now, used to
be four and I used to, um, printit on different color paper.
I used to go blue, green,yellow, pink, and then white was

(26:41):
my final copy.
I've cut out the blue and green.
So in a way, I think that's whatI'm doing While I'm writing now.
And now I'll, I'll print on, um,yellow and then I'll print on
pink and yellow is what I callCan I curse on this podcast?
Oh

Alice (26:55):
yeah.
I meant to tell you right upfront.
Feel free.
Yes.
Okay.

Amy (26:57):
So I call it the holy Shit Chainsaw revision and the holy
shit chainsaw revision is I tryand cut, um, 15 to 20% of the
book.
That's, I've tried and destroyit.
I try and I see why you

Alice (27:08):
call it Holy shit.

Amy (27:10):
Right?
And what, what I do, what I dois, um, I can go in and if you
look at a page, usually has, um,double space.
I can't remember what the numberof lines it is, right?
But I remember thinking, okay,if I can cut two sentences from
every page, right, or threesentences from every page, well,
of course there's some pagesthat you can't do that because
it's, it's just, it's a tightscene and you've, you've already
revised it.
It's, it's looking great.

(27:30):
But then you get to a wholeparagraph, three pages later and
you're like, I don't need thisparagraph.
'cause if you have the chainsawlens on your eyes and you're
there just to destroy, um, andnot destroy so much, but.
Really cut.
Just trim.
Just so trim.
Like, do we need to explain Oneof the biggest mistakes I see in

(27:50):
writers, including myself, allof us, every single writer does
this right?
Is we tend to add sentences tooverexplain.
We don't need to overexplain.
One of the beautiful thingsabout reading is that we connect
to the dots in our heads whilewe read, right?
So we tend to do that.
So I'll cut out, I'll just cut.
So the holy shit chain silvervision is a big deal because
it'll take a book from, youknow, 50,000 words to 40,000

(28:12):
words pretty quick.
a hundred thousand to 80,000pretty quick.
Um,

Alice (3) (28:16):
that's incredible.

Amy (28:17):
Which, which is what you want.
You know, you wanna just go inthere and just be and be
terrible to yourself.
And it's horrible because youthink, oh God, I I really like
that, you know, you, the wholedarlings thing.
That's great.
Make a cut file.
I have so many cut files everysingle book.
It's just like, here's my file.
I'm gonna just cut sentences,cut paragraphs, cut whole
chapters, stick them in the cutfile.
If I need'em again, I can go get'em.

(28:38):
No problem.
Um, I've, I don't, I think onetime I went into a cut file for
one sentence'cause it was good.
And I could, I remember thesentence so well, I could search
it.
So it was like, that's, youknow, um, so that's how I do it.
And then the pink draft, that'swhen I read a lot of poetry and
I, or I read some of my favoritebooks, or I listened to some of
my favorite books just to kindof get the rhythm.
And I listen to a lot of hip hopor trip hop or, or even just

(29:01):
something that just has a, has avery rhythmic kind of beat.
And, um.
Uh, I often have trance songs,which means I'll listen to the
same song, oh, 200 times in arow and drive everybody crazy if
I don't have earphones on.
And, um, and then I'll revisethat last draft, and then it's
done.
Then I send it to my editor andmy agent at the same time, which

(29:23):
is not what I would recommendwriters to do.
Uh, agents are not happy withthat.
I just am at that space, andthat's just how I write.

Alice (29:29):
That's amazing that, okay, one of the things that I
notice every time I read yourbooks is that there's not a
single wasted word.
The writing is beautiful.
The sentences, every single wordis so sharp and intentional and
purposeful.
Honestly, I listen to tons ofaudiobooks.
I can't really listen to yourbooks on audiobook because I

(29:52):
have to pay too close attentionto them, the honing of language
that you do in those revisionspays off because every single
word matters.
Um, and I just, I am soimpressed by that because it's
so hard to cut all those words.
So, two things I'm noticingthere.
One.
Because I just find it soastonishingly difficult to cut

(30:14):
words myself.
And I look at all of the writersthat I work with, and I'm like,
I understand why every word ison the page.
I, I struggle to cut words.
I tell my writers, I'm like, I,I can magically add an extra
10,000 words to, to anyone'snovel.
And so much of that on my end isconnecting with the characters.
Like I'm continually drawingwriters down to connect more
deeply with their characters.
But I'm really curious to diginto like an even closer look at

(30:36):
what you're cutting, when you'recutting in the holy shit.
chainsaw, draft.
And then the other piece is bothof those pieces I notice are
about the language and abouthoning the language to say
exactly what you want to say.
It sounds like the piece offiguring out what it is you're
saying and how to structure thestory and how to put the events
together, those things arehappening in the earlier two

(30:59):
drafts, in the what, blue andgreen drafts that are now
happening as you're writing, asyou're going through the story.
So could you talk about that,like how the story shape comes
together?

Amy (31:09):
Yeah.
Um, wow.
Uh, let's see.
Well.
Again, I'm not the one to almosttake, to take advice on this in
a way, because I will, I, Iliterally wing it.
I, I use Britton's and I didn'teven know that I was using
Britton's method, likesurrealist method, but that is
really how I write.
So yeah, those first two draftsare, are there to figure stuff
out.
To give you an example, sinceyou have Red Dig at about two

(31:32):
years into Dig, right?
The whole draft is done.
The draft is done.
Okay, it's finished, but there'squestions that I've written,
written in the columns and oneof them said, who is this Freak
girl?
Anyway, and only several pageslater it said, who's the fifth
cousin?
We never figured that out.
And so I, I am that dumb aboutmy own book while I'm writing

(31:54):
it, which is great.
Like, I kind of think that'scool.
'cause again, that's kind oflike, it mimics sort of how
curious a, a reader's gonna be.
But, um, well, okay, so what I'mlooking for is, um, okay, here's
a good one.
Um, oftentimes when I'm writingdialogue, I'll say, um, let's
see, uh, something important,blah, blah, blah.

(32:18):
Um, Amy said, oh yeah, that's,that's really cool.
Said Alice, or Alice replied orsomething.
I rarely use anything but said,but that's just me.
And then Amy says, what?
And Alice says.
Oh yeah, I think that's reallycool.
Nobody needs to have yourhearing issues on the page.
Right.
And so, so things like that.
And there's a lot of those,there's a lot of those, like

(32:39):
little, little couplets.
They're usually just in twos,right?
So I can pull those outtadialogue, like, no problem.
We could just leave silencethere.
We don't usually, they don'tneed any replacing at all.
Like I said, the, at the end ofparagraphs, um, and sometimes at
the end of chapters, people willadd a whole extra paragraph when
actually if you leave it righthere, it's almost like a punch
in the face.
And that's what you want.
You don't wanna overexplain apunch in the face.

(33:00):
You want that, you want thereader to feel that and go and
get some ice, you know, which isthe next chapter, and that's
where the ice is.
And so, you know, there's that.
Um, other than that, you know, Ijust, I wanna make sure that
every sentence actually takes ussomewhere.
Like that's why I'm like thispart of a book.
Like, I'm about 10,000 wordsfrom finishing this book.
If all goes well, I'll have thisbook done by Tuesday and I

(33:22):
really can't wait'cause I don'twant it on my desk anymore.
And I was like, I'm so positiveabout I'd like this book.
This is a great book.
I hate this book so much rightnow.
I hate it.
I just want it off my desk.
It's in the way of the nextthing I have to do, you know?
Um, so, um, I think I justalways just look for, for, I
look at every sentence and I askmyself, and this is, it's, it's
a vonne thing.

(33:42):
Uh, you know, I gotta say, Vonneget, it's, you know, if a
sentence, what does he say?
every sentence must do one oftwo things, reveal character or
advance the action, bam.
That's it.
And when I look at something,sometimes it's just frivolous.
It's just there because I, halfthe time, the stuff I cut is the
stuff that, it was me figuringout who the character was.
It was me figuring out what theplot was.
It was me figuring out what theheck was going on.

(34:04):
Or it was me like, on a bad daywriting when I shouldn't have
been in the office.
I can get the whole thing off.
Like, I know there's gonna bechapters in this book that will
be cut.
I don't know which chapters theyare yet, but when I get there,
I'll be like, oh yeah, no, thisis just, this is just a mushy
middle moment, you know?
And I could just pulled it outand, and it can be replaced with
one sentence.
Yeah.
That does the job.

Alice (34:23):
That makes so much sense.
Okay.
I love this.
It's so challenging.
I am, I'm so ready to go, like,wrap my head around this and
encourage my writers to try itand be like, let's give it a
shot together.
It's gonna be scary.
It's gonna be terrifying.
I believe in us.

Amy (34:38):
I start at 10%, you can start at 10%.
You can start at, I usually do15 to 20, but that's just me.
And I don't even overwrite thatmuch now.
So it is like a, I probably onlycut 10% now, but again, it's
because I'm revising while I'mwriting.

Alice (34:50):
Yeah, yeah.
And in terms of, okay, you'vementioned the surrealist writing
method a couple of times, and I.
I will admit, I'm not super, I'mnot super studied in the
surrealist space.
I can read it to

Amy (35:01):
you.
It's right here.
Oh, please do.
Yes.
You ready?
Okay.
This is what he literally said,and this is in the manifesto
from 1921.
And this is, this also shows youthat this is such a white dude.
Right?
Okay.
'cause the first line is havewriting materials brought once
you are settled in a place asfavorable as possible for
focusing the mind on itself.

(35:22):
So it's just like, aw, who'sbringing your stuff, Andre?
That's so nice.
I, I, I don't have anyone tobring me those things, but all
the same.
It was the twenties anyway, buthere's the, here's put yourself
in the most passive or receptivestate.
You can forget about yourgenius, your talents, and those
of others.
Tell yourself repeatedly thatliterature is one of the saddest

(35:44):
roads leading to everything.
Write swiftly with nopreconceived subject, swiftly
enough that you cannot retain itand are not tempted to reread.
Now,'cause I'm doing mydissertation on this at the
moment, let me say that.
If you follow that very strictlythe way they did and use, you
know, automatism in the way thatthey did, you're not gonna sell

(36:05):
a book that has no beginning, nomiddle, no end, there's no
revision.
These guys were reallyexperimenting for the first
time.
And isn't it great?
'cause now we can have their,you know, their knowledge and
their, and their practice.
But, um, so we have to still,you know, we have to sell books.
If you're gonna do this, youwanna sell books, you're gonna
have to do a little bit of, youknow, revising and, and really,
but that's how I write my firstdrafts.

(36:26):
So I, I can't put them down forthe, for the, that.
Like, that is how I writemyself, my first drafts.
I don't, I don't believe I'm agenius.
I don't believe anyone else is agenius.
I'm just gonna see what storycomes in to my head, and then I
just write what, what, whoever'stalking to me, you know, I don't
know.
It sounds very weird.
Like, I know I'm the one writingthe story, but whatever comes to
me, I follow it.

(36:46):
I just follow it.
Even if it's crazy.
Even if, even if suddenly asinkhole opens, and that's where
the Easter egg is, even ifsuddenly, you know, there's a
kid with a shovel or, you know,pick the lock, there's a rat,
you know, and I'm like, what theheck is this?
And it's this, it's a very, itsounds like it probably is the,
the devil.
It, it does sound like it's, youknow, a very, very, um, a very

(37:08):
diabolical rat.
So then you just have to, thenI'm like, I don't know what that
is, but I'm gonna keep writingit.
And at the end you're like,like, usually there's a moment
where you're like, oh my God,you're like in the middle of
target, or you're, or you'reshowering somewhere where you
can't write anything down orscream and you're like, I
figured it out.
Oh my gosh, this is who the ratis.
This is what the rat is doing.
This is why the rat's in thestory.
And I live for those moments.

(37:28):
But at the same time, at 20,000words before the end of the
book, I felt the same way aboutthat book.
'cause I feel about this bookthat's on my desk now.
I can't wait to get rid of it.
It's so weird.
It's such a weird job.
It is,

Alice (37:40):
it is.
It is.
I mean, you stick with thisproject for so long and you're
like, well, how, how do I letgo?
But also, how do I possibly getto the end?
Please,
please, God.
Yes.
Okay.
So.
I am really curious because, um,you're following what comes up,
what your, what your, what yourinspiration brings you, what

(38:02):
your brain presents to you, whatthe characters present to you.
You're just following it all theway as fast as you can.
I'm really curious, at whatpoint do you know, okay, first
pick the lock.
Specifically, at what point didyou know that it was going to be
confined feminist smashingpatriarchy and not confined
feminists being smashed bypatriarchy?

Amy (38:26):
Oh, I knew that from the very beginning.
Um, I drew, is it here?
Oh God, it's, again, viewerscan't see this or listeners
can't see this, but you can seethis.
So I, I drew this picture of ahamster tube.
It's like a little habit trailtube with two, um, 45 degree
angles, right?
And it, and then a chair, and itjust said system.

(38:49):
And I wrote that on the day thatI realized, or I could, I kind
of, I got a concept, a thoughtin my head, and the thought was,
when you can't control your ownnarrative, meaning when you're
in this case, in this case, forthis picture and for the book,
pick the lock.
When your husband or your, yourspouse is telling your children

(39:11):
lies about you for a long periodof time, you may as well be
locked into a hamster tubethat's human sized because.
You have no control over thenarrative.
Those kids are believing a bunchof lies.
It's not their fault.
Um, and you have to escape thatsystem.

(39:31):
Um, and, and you can't becauseyou're one who has the keys, and
in fact, the person who doeswon't let you out.
But the other people in thespace, which are the kids, can
at least say, Hey, you're in asystem.
And you're like, well, yeah, Iknow, but you know.
And then, but I, when did I knowthat the system was going to be,

(39:53):
without spoilers, bigger thanjust the house when it showed
up, I was like, what?
And that was actually in mysketchbook.
I was sketching.
I was like, oh, this is what thehouse looks like.
This is what the garden lookslike.
Oh, look, they have a pool.
Oh, great.
Of course they do.
I love swimming.
So of course they have a pool,and this is where the, you know,
orchards are, and what the heckis that?
Oh, oh, there's somethingunderground.
Oh, that's interesting.

(40:13):
Oh, there's this, there'sStation six.
What the heck is Station six?
And to this day, I can't tellyou what Station six is.
I don't know.
And in the end of the book,they're like, how, how far does
this go?
She's like, I don't know.
I haven't followed it all theway.
And, and that's kind of how itworks, you know?
And as a, as a representation ofthe patriarchy or the escape
from it, that's also still true,you know?
You know, it holds true to theactual, to the actual analogy as

(40:36):
well.

Alice (40:36):
Yeah.
I mean, as I was reading.
Pick the lock and thinking aboutthis idea of, of pantsing and
not knowing where the story isgoing to go.
I, as the reader walking intopick the lock thinking, I'm
reading an as king novel.
Like I know that this novel isgoing to look at some kind of,

(40:56):
some kind of unjust structure,some kind of wonky thing in the
world.
Look at it clear-eyed and belike, how are we going to deal
with this?
And I, as a reader was assumingwe're not going to end the book
with Vernon wins, and everyoneis sad.
Like I'm thinking all the waythrough.
How are we going to, in some wayovercome Vernon over in some

(41:19):
way, overcome this system insome way, break out of this?
I don't know how it's going tohappen, but I'm expecting that
that's where this ending isgoing to go.
At what point, and I had toimagine that you knew that too,
that you weren't thinking, I betVernon wins at the end of this
book when you first began it.
No, I

Amy (41:34):
definitely knew he wasn't going to, I just didn't know how
we were going to overcome it.
Yeah, yeah.

Alice (41:38):
At what point did you figure out how we were going to
overcome it?
Was that in the writing process,in the revising process?
When did that come through?
Yeah, everything's,

Amy (41:44):
yeah, everything's in the writing process, um, before that
first draft.
So again, I'm making a lot ofthose.
Um, and I have them here.
I, I am making a lot of these,you know, um, tables of contents
and I'm looking at sort ofwhat's already down on the page
and when you, when you, when youstop and.
And really look at what you'vealready written.
'cause you're stuck.
'cause you're like, well, Idon't know where to go from

(42:05):
here.
Like, what happens next?
We have to have this destroyed.
Um, I'll call my friends who aregreat at plotting.
I'll, I'll talk about, like, Ihave a few, I usually have one
friend on my bestie, David, who,um, I've actually wrote an
incredible book called, um, theSticky Note Plot.
Um, it's out there.
Um, I hate to just, I have tojust say it though, because

(42:27):
that's the reason I have stickynotes all over my office.
Um, it really does help me plotout things, even if I'm not
gonna follow the plot.
Right.
It helps me understand sort ofwhere my brain is going as I'm
writing and a little bit before.
But anyway, um, yeah, there's a,there's a moment where I'm like,
oh, okay.
And of course.
The, the one thing I get withPic, the lock people are like,

(42:48):
well, how come it wasn't likebigger?
And why didn't they kill Vernon?
And why didn't, I'm like,because this isn't a thriller.
And you know, James Bond isnowhere to be seen.
Friends.
This is real life and this isthe patriarchy.
And it's a, it's a common quietdisassembly.
And that's what it's going tobe.
And it's going to be personal.
You have to have a common quietdisassembly of your own
patriarchy.
That's how it works.
And then you can empoweryourself and go out into the

(43:09):
world and nobody's bullshit getsin your way.
Um, and that's still not true.
Bullshit gets in the way all thetime.
We'll talk about that in alittle bit when it comes to
publishing, because you can'tcontrol other people.
You may work your ass off, youmay work so hard, you barely
give yourself time to shower.
And I might be there in thatspace.
Um, but if somebody else whocontrols, um, the marketing or

(43:33):
the, you know, success of yourbook is not working that hard or
doesn't give a crap about howyou're working, you really can't
do squad about it.
This is why the most importantthing is to have the best book
out there that you want outthere.
If it sells two copies, whocares?
If it's the book you wanted towrite, that's what matters.
That's it.
And if it says what you wantedto say, that's what matters.
But when it, that did not answeryour question.

(43:54):
Yeah.
Um, basically, yeah.
I just figure it out when I, Icry.
I or I, or I or I get reallyangry or frustrated and I take
walks and I'm like, what's gonnahappen?
Like.
And then, then you're just like,oh, well let's write it and see
what happens.
A lot of times people willstall.
I, I'm just like, no, you knowwhat?
'cause I want the thing off mydesk so much.
'cause I have like,'cause youknow, I don't know if you guys,
if everybody does this, I thinkI, I've talked to a lot of

(44:16):
writers about this and most ofus do, but, um, I have a pretty
fast brain.
And so, like, like I said, look,I'm in the middle of this book.
This came up.
Yeah.
Except I've been, I've beencheating on my middle grade book
that I've been writing duringthe day, writing a, an adult
book that's actually stickynoted on the back of that
whiteboard behind me.
Um, and so I've been writingthis adult book for ages.
It's not this one, this isanother one.
I'm like, oh my gosh.

(44:36):
Like, get this book off so I canfinish this book so that I can
start.
And it's just constant, youknow?
So, um, so I just wanna get tothe end of the book and then
I'll fix it.
And that's really what thatfirst revision that has no
color.
Like it's not a pink or a yellowdraft.
I go through there before I everwill print it on yellow.
'cause yellow's sort of like,this is something I'm willing to
show to my editor.

Alice (2) (44:55):
Hmm.

Amy (44:56):
That's a big deal.
Right.
So I have to perfect it pretty alot before I would ever do that.
Um, so I kind of, yeah, I guessI figured out on the way and,
and I'll write it even if it'swrong and then I'll fix it
later.
Yeah.
That's the one cool thing aboutrevision.
You know, look, right now I'mwriting all the wrong names in
this book I'm writing andeventually I'll come up.
I have, I'm using the real namesof the people in real life that

(45:18):
did some of the things, youknow, like, um, you know, the
toxic waste stuff.
Um, I have to change that.
I have to come up with a handyname, but

Alice (45:26):
yeah.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
I am cutting in for just amoment to let you know that if
you're enjoying thisconversation and feeling
inspired, I have a bonus readinglist for you.
I've gathered all the books thatAmy mentions here and The
insights that she shared abouthow she revised them, and I've
compiled them into a readinglist.

(45:47):
It's ordered by publishingdates, so you can see how her
novels have evolved over time,and it includes links to order
each book from Erin's books,Amy's local bookstore, where you
can get your book signed andpersonalized by Amy herself.
You can grab that reading listby going to alice sudler.com/ 82
and entering your email in theform there, Because the best way

(46:08):
to see Amy's editorial choicesin action is to read the books
that she wrote and revised.
Alright, back to Amy.
I'm curious about at what point do you bring other people
into this process?
You mentioned you've got a fewpeople you mentioned you've got
your people who are really goodat plotting and you just like

(46:29):
bounce ideas with them, but theydon't read the draft.
And then you have your editorand your agent and you're
sending them the manuscript andyou have a certain point when
you are willing to share, oryou've got the manuscript to a
point where you're like, that'sshareable, but you don't share
it at that point.
Like, what is this process ofbringing other people into your
revision process?

Amy (46:46):
This is easy.
And I'm weird.
I don't recommend this foranybody because every agent is
different and every editor isdifferent.
Right.
And every publishing house isdifferent.
But for me, I don't bringanybody in.
I don't have beta readers, Idon't have anybody.
Um, and, and somebody like, likeDavid Gill, who, like I said,
um, he's really greatapplauding.
He teaches that very well.
He's a great writer.

(47:06):
Um, but he's just, just'cause heis my bestie.
He's like, you know, I'll belike, oh yeah, yeah.
Like right now he knows way toomuch about toxic waste because
I'll go off on it, but I alsoknow what he's obsessed with.
'cause we talk to each otherthat way.
But, um, at what point, lookman, I'm.
To me, it has to be perfect.
It has to be so close to beingready to publish in my mind.

(47:28):
And that's what a good editor,this is why I love my editor.
I'll be like, all right, hereyou go.
Here's a perfect, beautifulthing.
It's finished.
Now.
I never think that that's reallytrue.
Like I used to say to my oldeditor at, well, not my old, my
former editor at, at LittleBrown, she's a genius.
Uh, Andrea Spooner used to belike, she'd said, she's like,
okay, well, I'll send you aletter in a few weeks.
And I'd be like, oh, you meanit's not perfect?
And she'd be like, no, no, it's,I'm like, oh, no, no, don't,

(47:49):
don't do that.
I'm kidding.
There's this humor in this.
But, um, but at what point, likeonce I, once, I'm pretty much, I
feel like it's in the rightspace.
I've, I've done my final, youknow, table of contents.
It's all color coded, all thedates are right, everything's
tight.
Um, I've looked at everythingfrom the spacing of where the
title is on the page.

(48:10):
It's four Spaces Down.
I mean, so I, I look at design.
I went to art school, so mybrain, my brain is very design
oriented too.
So I have that.
I make sure just everything'sperfect, and then I send it to
my agent and editor at the sametime.
I'll be honest, I don't evenknow when my agent reads the
book work.
He's a great agent.
Like, and he, he will, he'lltalk about the book, like he's

(48:31):
read it.
So I know that he has, but it'snot like he says me a thing that
says, this is genius.
He doesn't, I don't need that.
I don't, I wouldn't believe itanyway.
Like it's sort of, you know, butthen my editor reads it and then
he gets me a letter and, and,and we go from there.
First we have a conversation.
And I, and I usually, when I,when I, when I send a book, I
will send a book with thethings, I think, with the little
letter that says, these are thethings need help.

(48:53):
These things need help.
Something's up with this, thisdoesn't quite fit.
I'm concerned about thischaracter being flat or
whatever.
Right.
And so I'll send that list.
It's like a grocery list.

Alice (49:01):
Yeah.
And what kind of feedback doesyour editor give you in that
process?
I think that a lot of mylisteners want to be
traditionally published and havenot yet been traditionally
published.
And you know, when we have athing that we hear about, we
have our ideas of what thatlooks like, that may or may that
have some basis in reality, butthey're not actually based in

(49:21):
reality.
So what does the feedback looklike when you get it from your
editor?

Amy (49:27):
Well, that all depends on the editor and it depends on the
book and the, and the writer.
And I think it all, it really isvery different, right.
But for me, um, I, having workedwith a few editors over the
years, and again, at differentstages in my career, right?
So now.
It's more like a very intenseline edit.
It's not as much of a, Hey, I'mnot even gonna line edit this
until you fix these five things.
You know?

(49:47):
So letters can be like, okay,this isn't working.
You know, this character isn'tworking for me.
This doesn't make sense that sheis this weak in this space, in
this strong, in this space.
But then a good, in my mind, agood editor isn't gonna tell you
how to do that.
They're gonna tell you what theproblem is, and your brain's
gonna come up with, oh, well,she's weak in that area because
she doesn't feel she can speakup.
Oh, shoot, I need to polish upwhy?

(50:08):
Right?
I need to figure, I need to makethat space more confining so
that we can explain, you know,the answer to this.
So basically a good editor to measks good questions.
Um, so, and absolutely givessuggestions and, and all of
those things you can, you cansay no to.
I don't, I don't recommendsaying no to it.
I recommend, I recommendlistening to your editor, um,
because an editors, and, and ifyou don't know why, you know

(50:30):
they're saying.
And don't worry, like everybody,like when I get editor's
letters, I, I haven't met anauthor yet who doesn't have to
like, take a really fast walkaround the block, um, maybe
every day for a week to sort offilter through what this editor
has said, because you wanted toget the book off your desk and
now this person wants it back onyour desk.
It's just so annoying and youwanna go write this other book,
you know, but at the same time,you know, this is the process,

(50:50):
right?
But, um, some of the things theysay are, you know, um.
I mean everything from, are yousure you wanna go this far?
To, um, you know, this isn'tquite connecting yet.
This isn't connecting for mehere.
I wanna make sure that this isconnecting.
Um, that kind of stuff.
I mean, with pick the lock, itwas sort of an interesting

(51:11):
editorial process where myeditor was very hands off.
He'd never been, and I mean,it's, part of it was'cause I had
worked it to, not to death, butI'd worked it really, really a,
a long, for a long time.
Also, it was the first time Iever sent a book that had
placeholders and wasn't finishedbecause he needed to see a draft
because there was an in-houselaunch.

(51:31):
He needed to read it, know whereit was.
It wasn't'cause he didn't trustme.
He needs to be able to talk itup.
And he also wants an idea ofwhat's, you know, what it's,
what it turned out like.
He knew what the idea was and wetalked about it.
He bought it, you know, we didall this.
But, but, um, so I sent him anunfinished book.
First time ever was picked thelock I, and I was like, this is
so uncomfortable.
I can't even believe this.

(51:52):
You're making me do this, buthere, here it is, take it.
And then, but then I worked, italso gave me a like, I guess a
stronger push to, to read it orto work on it and finish it so
that I could get him a finaldraft, ASAP.
Um, and then he really waspretty hands off with that book,
mostly because he knew that itwas so personal and it was, it
was experience that he hadn'tbeen through, but I had lived

(52:14):
through.
So it's sort of, I meanobviously not exactly it's the
giant surrealist metaphor, butyou know what I mean.
And so, um, but also I thinkbecause.
It worked.
I mean, we also are in the midmidst.
See, he and an editor like thatin a publishing house also has
the vision of where the genre orthe, or, so if you're writing

(52:34):
Myster Mystery, so genre thatway where the, where the
classification is going.
So now where ya now in this, inthis timeline right here in
2025, most of the work I'vepublished is, YA would've been
published as adult, especiallywith the crackdown of these
people who don't think childrenshould read books about real
things, um, because it makesadults uncomfortable.
So you have this space where,you know, this editor has not

(52:59):
just your words, your commas,you know, this isn't about
spelling and grammar.
This is about your characters,your plot.
And then more importantly, it'slike, where is it gonna fit in?
Where does this fit?
What are the comps?
How can I, is this, is this theHunger Games meets?
I don't know mean girls, is itactually, that's kind of
redundant.
But anyway, like is, you know,but whatever.

(53:19):
Um, so that's, you know, that'sthe vision.
Um, but um, what kind of thingsdid they say?
I mean, I've had.
11 page letters that say, youknow, I don't like the way that,
or I, I don't believe the waythat Gloria's interacting with
her father.
Why is she interacting that way?
I mean, I don't think that'sactually what was said, but
something like that.
So, meaning something'sunbelievable, something's hard

(53:41):
to grasp, something isn't gonnawork for a reader.
And then I have had people tryand, you know, kind of police me
and I, I'm not policed veryeasily.
I, I will find another way.
In fact, if you've read as thePassengers, the reason that
Astrid Jones flips her shit atthe end of that book and starts
walking down the hallwayscreaming, fine, I'm gay, is
that what you want?

(54:01):
Is because that entire book,including in the actual, like,
that was the first book I eversold on spec.
And in that book it was calledQuest.
It was all about questioning.
And the whole idea is that I wasgonna keep that character as
someone who didn't have to beboxed or defined or labeled.
All the way through the book.
That was very clear.
And for some reason my editoreither didn't know that or

(54:23):
didn't care and knew that shecould CI don't know.
Again, she's a brilliant womanand I absolutely adore her.
So she wasn't trying to hurt me.
She was probably trying to dogood things for the book.
It's not about the author forthem, it's about the book.
And I think that's why you haveto listen to him.
Um, and she's like, no, sheneeds to come out.
And I'm like, no, she doesn't.
That's the whole point.
She doesn't have to come out.
And she's like, no, she does.
So that's why I had Ashley belike, fingers up, fine.

(54:43):
Screw you.
I'm gay.
Right, fine.
Whatever.
And whether that was true ornot, and she even said, I don't
even know if it's true, but I'llsay it for your sake.
And I was like, yeah, that wasme basically saying that to my
editor.
Absolutely.
There's a bunch of things in mybooks like that, and it's really
fun, you know?
Um, and it's not because I'm madat my editor, it's because I'm
mad at the book.
I'm like, ah, this doesn't makea huge amount of sense, but this
seems to be what they need, soI'll, I'll do it.

(55:05):
You know?
That's

Alice (55:06):
amazing.
That's so cool.
I love that story behind thestory, and I have not read that
book yet, but you can bet thatis the next I'm about to go pick
up and I'm so excited for

Amy (55:15):
and it could even just be like, one of the, one of my
favorite suggestions in recentyears,'cause I really can't
remember the older stuff, youknow, was David Leviathan, who
is my editor, um, over atScholastic, um, was my friend
for years.
And then we ended up, I gotorphaned as an, as a writer.
And this will happen to youwriters.
It's, it's okay.
It's okay.
But like, my editors keptleaving and I loved all those
editors.

(55:36):
Um, and then I was like, David,is this really gonna happen?
Like, we're friends.
This is weird.
And then it worked out great.
He's a great editor.
Um, but he was like, I kepthinting to the fact that Dennis,
this one character was basicallyAce.
Um, and he's like, why don't youjust say he's Ace?
And I was like, oh, okay.
And I did, and you know what?
The amount of reader letters Iget about that, that are so

(55:59):
beautiful and just so whetherthey're older and they read
middle grade and they're like,oh my gosh, if I would've read
this when I was a kid, Iwould've understood myself so
much better to young peoplewriting to me going, I'm so glad
you know, you, you, you supportmy community.
That's, I just like, wow, that'samazing.
One little thing.

(56:20):
One, and, and like I said, I wasshowing it, not telling it, but
it was like, yeah, I'm showingit, but then put a label on it
because actually, you know, 10and 12 year olds really need to
hear, have, understand thatlabel.
Right.
Which is, yeah, funny because wejust talked about labels before,
but anyway.
Yeah.

Alice (56:36):
But this is why stories are complex and interesting, is
because sometimes you needsomething and sometimes you need
the opposite thing.
And both of those realities aretrue.
And that's why there's not asimple choice forward for
characters.
That's why stories like thecomplexities of humanity are
what come out on the page.
And so in this case, the labelis the thing the reader needs.
And in this other case, thelabel is the, the thing that the

(56:58):
character needs to bust out of.
Like, yes, that's, I love it.

Amy (57:02):
it depends.
It depends.
And every single, you knowyourself, like I, I feel this,
and I know there's a, there's amovie about it.
I've never watched it, butsomeone told me to a long time
ago.
But one of the things aboutbeing a writer is the, the sheer
power.
You write a sentence like, um,you know, Alice closed the door
and started to cry on her bed,and you're like, delete.
Alice locked her door, wentstraight to her window.

(57:25):
Repelled down the side of thehouse and, and walked to her
best friend's house.
Two very different things,right?
You can, and you can just keepwriting this, you can just
delete that one and decide thatshe, A million things can happen
once Alice closes the door.
Like, and that's the coolestpart about writing.
And I think, I think oftentimeswe get a little too precious
with our own work.
We get a little bit too, um,attached to the idea that we

(57:47):
only thought Alice could do onething, and this also might come
with, it comes with practice, itcomes with years of experience,
but it also comes with age,which is, I look, man, I'm gonna
say this out loud.
There was this person that livedwith me in Ireland that lived
with me, lived around me, andwas in the kind of the friend
group in Ireland when I firststarted writing books.
And I was like on my second orthird novel at this point.
They were, again, they wereterrible, but that's okay.

(58:08):
I was learning.
And she said to me, Ugh, I don'teven know why you're writing
novels.
No one should start.
And she was my age too.
She's like 23, 24.
Um, and everyone knows youshouldn't start trying to write
novels till you're 40.
And the funny part is, I gotpublished when I was 40.
So if I wouldn't have started at24, maybe I wouldn't have gotten
published at 40.

(58:28):
Right?
But age does, you know, it doeschange your, it changes your
worldview.
Um, I.
In, in a really cool way,especially to yourself and
especially as an artist, like,and, and you just realize
there's just so many, there's somany roads you can take with
every sentence.
Alice, once we close the door,can do anything she wants and we
can change that in a bookanytime.

(58:49):
We can actually just cut thewhole last third of the book and
change the whole last third ofthe book if we need to.
And that's, that's where thatchainsaw has helped me a lot.

Alice (58:56):
Yes.
I think that one thing I seewith writers is that once it's
on the page, in the firstversion, it's easy to get
attached to it.
Like once the words are arewritten, it feels like that's
the thing.
And it's so hard to let that go.
But the possibilities areendless when you use that
sentence as the tool to get youto what you mean in the story.
And then from there youextrapolate out to what the

(59:18):
actual sentence can be.

Amy (59:20):
I, I always say revision is the sport.
You know, Andrea wrote me thatwhen she said, I think I said to
her or something about, oh, youmean it's not perfect?
This might have been in thatexchange.
And she said, oh, I'm reallysorry, you know, but, but, and I
was like, no, no, no, no.
And when I think maybe it waswhen she wrote me a letter,
she's like, I'm sorry, this waslike 11 pages long.
And I was like, Andre, it'slonger than that.
I saw that you reduced the font.

(59:41):
You reduced the font to Ted.
Right?
So I don't care.
It's fine.
Listen to me, revision is thesport.
I'm a jock.
I'm an old jock.
I love basketball.
I loved playing competitivesports, wasn't it?
'cause I was, it was a mix ofteams.
The teamwork and the actual.
Doing the work, working hard,practicing, sweating.
I love it.
Um, and I like it a lot more inmy brain now versus actually

(01:00:03):
being, I can't really do thatanymore, um, physically, but,
um, intellectually I love it.
And to me, revision is thesport.
It's the impact.
It's the, it's the reason.
It's the reason we're writers.
We're not, we're not, I mean,the first draft is great.
You can't revise anythingwithout it.
Right.
But the revision is the sportfor me.

Alice (01:00:18):
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
I love that.
I love that perspective.
That's what I'm trying toencourage all of my writers to,
to hear is that there's so muchjoy here, and this is where the
true, the true storytellinghappens.
The first is just like getting astory to work with.
Now we're actually telling thestory.
So once you get the letter, onceyou get that initial feedback
from your editor, how many moredrafts do you tend to go through

(01:00:42):
after that letter?

Amy (01:00:45):
Um, you know, again, because we can revise on the
page, you know what I mean?
The constantly and when it comesto.
You know, computers and, andword processing systems.
Um, I can't really count them,but like, usually it's one big
mess of me trying to fix all thethings.
Um, yeah, in it, again, everybook is different, so a lot of

(01:01:06):
notes on the side.
Um, I'll go in and I'll taglike, oh, this is a way that I
can make that thing she said onpage two work, oh, I can do this
for the thing that she said onpage, you know, so I'll go
through it and I'll, I'll haveher letter in front of me and
what I usually would do is printthe letter out, mark the whole
thing up.
I also have a notes file.
I didn't even talk to you aboutthis, but I have a notes file
for all my novels.
So all my novels have a journalbasically, and sometimes they're

(01:01:27):
longer than the book, um, whichis frightening.
Um, but sometimes they're alsocomplete bullshit.
Like half of them, I, when I,I'll go through now and edit out
things, I click How, why doesn'tAlice buy a giraffe?
I'm like, that's dumb.
And I just delete that.
You know, I don't, there's noneed to leave it there and waste
paper.
So I try and get all the, this,the ideas that I originally had,
even from the very beginning,like the very first thing I

(01:01:48):
wrote about this book isimportant because that's, that's
the origin.
And so I'll have that.
Keep that in mind, make surethat matches.
Then I have my editor's letterout as well, and I'll have like,
I'll, I will cross out wholethings and be like, Nope, I will
not be doing that.
That is a, that is not somethingI will do, but I will answer the
question this other way.
Um, and so I can do that whenI'm, when I'm going through.

(01:02:10):
So I, I'll, I'll do that.
I'll basically go and, and tagup a right, you know, scribble
all over my own manuscript,we'll say, but in, in, in the
word processing software.
And then, um, and then I just gothrough and try and make it
right.
And I, I'd say that probablytakes a good few passes.
Um, and especially in the olddays, like, you know, in, in my

(01:02:31):
first 10 books, there were agood few passes to do that.
Um, and you know, I wanna tell aquick story if that's okay.
Yes, please.
There's a little revision.
This is actually my firstpublished book, um, which was my
sixth or seventh novel that Iwrote.
Um, but not the one I got my, myagent on.
So remember those other bookslike this, I always say this to
writers, just keep writing.
Why, why are you, why are youtrying to work on marketing?

(01:02:53):
That's not your job.
Write the next book becauseyou're gonna need the next book.
You're an author, that's whatyou do, right?
But, um, I published the dust of100 dogs, but when I first got
an agent, and it wasn't myagent, now it was my first
agent, um, he said, I refuse tosell this right there.
That's a problematic thing, butwe're not gonna get into that
today.
Um, but he's like, I can't, Ican't pitch this unless you make

(01:03:15):
the villain die at the end,right?
And I was like, whoa.
I.
Who's, how's he gonna die?
Well, she's gonna kill him.
I'm like, she's a 16-year-oldgirl, like, or a 17-year-old
girl.
Like she doesn't really havethe, a lot of stuff.
She doesn't have a lot.
She doesn't have that in her tokill him.

(01:03:36):
And so I still had to do itthough,'cause I wanted him to
shop the book.
So I went in and I insertedwhat, she's a pirate.
She's a 17.
She's a eight.
What is she?
17.
Oh man, I can't remember.
Hold on.
It was Cromwell was, she's acromwellian orphan.
So it starts in Ireland and itwas 16th, fifties.
So it was 17th century.
Yeah, it was late 16th,hundreds.
She's a 17th century Caribbeanpirate.

(01:03:58):
It's a long story.
She gets from Ireland to Franceand then goes, doesn't matter.
It's all historically accurate,which is how I am, except for
the weather.
Um, except for the weather.
Nailed it.
And so, um, I was like, oh, wellshe has her pirate memories,
right?
That's the whole point.
That is the one book I canactually still pitch, which is

(01:04:20):
that it's about, it's aboutemer, Morrisey or Uhoh.
No, I said I could pitch it andnow I don't know if I can, but
basically this, this, thispirate, right?
This woman is a pirate.
She's notorious pirate.
She gets cursed before she'skilled and she's cursed that
lived the lifetimes of 100 dogsbefore.
She's reborn as a human again.
And when she is, she's born in,um.

(01:04:42):
In Pennsylvania, and, and she,um, has all of her pirate.
She knows where the booty is.
Basically all she needs is ashovel and a ride to Jamaica.
And that's the, that was thetagline.
And so I decided I would have togive her pirate feelings.
I slow, I, and I called it pfspirate feelings.
And I, I just, I just decided tostick in all these rage filled

(01:05:05):
and it worked.
'cause she's a teenage girl anda place where her parents are
treating her like a girl and herbrother, like he has to do other
stuff and just, it's just, it'srage and it so it fit.
So she had these piratefeelings, like she's just always
taking people's eyeballs out andsqueezing them, but it's just in
her head, you know?
And squeezing them like a limeinto their mouth, like gross
stuff like this.

(01:05:25):
But that's, that piracy, youknow, violence.
And she had these thoughts andthat allowed her to kill the
villain at the end.
The best part about it is thatwhen the book sold, my editors
like she can't kill the villainin the end.
I'm like, oh god.
I know.
But the pirate feelings stayedbecause they made the book
better.
And so every revision is worthit.

(01:05:46):
Every revision.
That story is everything to mebecause it's real.
Those pirate feel that bookwould be shit without those
pirate feelings.
And I probably added 14sentences.
That's it.
And the book would be entirelydifferent and it wouldn't nearly
read as well without thosepirate of feelings.

Alice (01:06:01):
That's amazing.
I love that so much.
I.
I love so many things aboutthat.
One of them is, I love that thepirate feelings are this, this
like magical element of herbeing a reincarnated pirate,
like, right?
And yet it works because she's ateenage girl with anger.
And so you've got this magicalthing that is allowing you to

(01:06:22):
tell us a truth.
And I love that.

Amy (01:06:25):
The best part about that, Alice, is that until I just told
you that story, and I've toldthat story many times, I didn't
realize how well the piratefeelings fit with a teenage girl
in that household.
So until I said at this time,that was a, that was a new way
for me to say it.
But the bottom line, you know,the real thing to learn from
that is that, look, maybe youreditor's wrong, do it anyway.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Because then, then the nextrevision you'll be like, oh, we

(01:06:45):
can actually pull back on that.
And I've had editors do that tome.
I'm like, okay, you want this?
Here's this.
And they're like, we need topull back on that a bit.
And I was like, what the heck?
How can you change your mind?
But the book always improves.
It's, it's

Alice (01:06:56):
just how it is.
And your subconscious isaligning it with the true story
all the way through.
Because whether you couldarticulate that the pirate
feelings matched the teenagegirl when you wrote it, or now
like all the way through, yoursubconscious was still telling
the same story and you matchedall of the things up because
they worked Even then.
Wild, right?
That's so, that's so cool.

(01:07:16):
I love it.
I just, I love revision,revision.

Amy (01:07:19):
Revision is the best.
I know, me too.
I'm a nerd for it.
We could sit here all day and Iwould seriously truly, I
actually like this would be thelongest podcast in history.

Alice (01:07:24):
So I know you teach in an MFA program.
What do you tell your studentsabout revision?

Amy (01:07:30):
Um, I don't teach there anymore, but I'm about to teach
again soon.
I can't tell you where becauseit's a secret.
Um, but what do I tell'em aboutrevision?
I hand them this one pagedocument, which is actually me
cheating.
It's Kurt Vogts rules forwriting.
Um, there are eight rules.
Um, and then his essay, how toWrite was Style.
So it truly is a one pager.
Um.

(01:07:51):
And when it comes to revision,I, I, you know, I do give'em the
chainsaw thing.
Um, but mostly that's, you know,because of working with students
in the MFA program, usuallyit's, it's line edits and then,
you know, and, and an editorialletter every single month.
And it's a, a short form of thelong form of what we just
discussed, right.

(01:08:12):
So, like, instead of having anentire novel and go poof, you
know, and then having an editorsend you this giant letter or
these, you know, giantmanuscript with lots of line
edits on it, we get to do it 50pages at a time.
Um, which I think is actuallyquite gentle and, and sweet.
Um, but it's also fun because,you know, that's when the
writer, you know,'cause mosthonestly, this, I may call it

(01:08:34):
the surrealist method and sayall this stuff, but a lot of
writers are panthers.
Mm-hmm.
So they might get a hundredpages in and go, wait a second,
I don't want this character todo this anymore.
And I'm like, excellent.
And we can go back.
You can, they don't have to be afast food, you know, um, drive
through person.
They can be a, a pizza deliveryperson or they can, uh, work in
their dad's garage.
Like, we can do anything wewant.

(01:08:55):
Like, so honestly, it just is,for me, when it comes to
revision, a lot of it is, is Ithink the biggest work we do
when we're working with MFAstudents usually is, is getting
'em to throw things away.
Is the cutting and is is thegiving them like, look, I, I
just, the reassurance, you know,of like, listen, I promise you I

(01:09:17):
am not trying to wreck yourbook.
And if we do, my apologies, butI always used to say, this is
why I have Spock behind me andthere's Spock everywhere in my
office because my students giveme little sp and I say, look,
I'm a cuddly Vulcan.
This is what I mean.
I'm blunt.
I'm blunt because I'm gonna tellyou what's wrong with your book.
I'm also gonna tell you what'sright with your book.
You know, I'm gonna say, oh mygosh, this character like
shines, you know, this isamazing.

(01:09:37):
Um, but I will say, how can wemake her, you know, a little
more, you know, give her moreagency or, you know, whatever.
Right?
Um, so it's more questions thananything, which I think is
actually the, the what's missingin most conversations these days
in the world.
Um, questions versus knowing somuch.
But, um, yeah, I, I think when Iwork with students, the biggest

(01:09:58):
thing that, the biggest thingthat we have to conquer is, is
letting go of the, the darlings.
Whether on a large scale, likethis whole book is my darling
to, to look.
This idea is my darling.
Okay, cool.
How are we gonna make it work?
Because it's not right.
And having to say, listen, it'snot, this isn't working right
now, but it has potential.

(01:10:19):
These are the five things.
Like, same with me talking ageologist yesterday.
How is this gonna work?
You know, how I, we don't havebogs in Pennsylvania.
How can I make a bog?
Um, and so, you know, you knowthat that's really what it is.
It's just sort of, mm.
It's, it's like a, a barteringof sorts really, because, and I,

(01:10:40):
I have found, you know,obviously some students haven't
taken my, my, you know, um, myadvice and that's fine.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Like, I didn't take all myeditor's advice either, and I
always will say, look, thiscould be me being crazy, but
what do you think about this?
And I love to, one of myfavorite tricks of editors, and
I, I don't even know if theyknow that this is a trick, or
maybe this is just how theyoperate, but like, when you're

(01:11:01):
like, they're like, mm, I don'tlike the title of this book.
And I'm like, oh, really?
Okay, well, so give us some moreideas.
I'm terrible at that.
First of all, I'm already ontothe next book.
I've been cheating on this bookwith, with another book for ye
like a year.
And I have two more in my head.
I don't want to talk about thetitle of this book.
It's, it's done for me.
So then they'll, they'll belike, okay, well here's, here's
my ideas.

(01:11:21):
And they'll send me a list ofliterally the worst titles you
have ever seen for a book.
They're the worst titles.
And I'm like, oh God.
And so you have to do betterthan that.
And then you send'em, well, howabout these four?
Like, whatever.
And it was so funny, like whenwe finally worked, and this is
with Andrew, this is with my, mypresent editor who I adore, um,
with Dig.
Dig was on the first list and itwas called a Brilliant, um, a

(01:11:44):
bunch of different things.
And it was like, no, that's not,you know, we need a title and
then this list.
And I was like, no, these areterrible titles.
And, and then I had to go backto like, what about Dig?
And he was like, why don't weadd a period to it?
It is an imperative.
And I was like, you're sobrainy.
I What a great match.
You what a great match.
You know.
So

Alice (01:12:02):
I love that.
That's hilarious.
I'm just imagining you sendingin a title, them being like,
this title doesn't work.
It's not good.
And then them being like, whatif we lower the bar?
What if we go downhill fromthat?
What if we make it

Alice (3) (01:12:12):
worse?

Amy (01:12:13):
It's one of the best things to do.
And I do it with my students allthe time, kind of accidentally,
because I have to get throughtheir packet.
'cause I have to get to the nextpacket so I can finish all their
packets so I can get back to thebook so I can get it off my desk
so I can work on the other book.
Right?
So I'm like, Hey, this is areally terrible idea, but come
up with a better one, blah.
And then I just keep going.
But I, I throw them terribleideas, not on purpose, you know?
I'm like, that's what I'msaying.
I don't know if my editors, Ithink my editors are probably in

(01:12:33):
the same place.
They're probably editing 12books, right?
And they're like, I don't knowwhat your title should be.
Dumb ass.
Here's a stupid list.
I don't know.
But like, it works.
They're not

Alice (01:12:43):
trying to send you deliberately bad ideas.

Alice (3) (01:12:46):
You just look at them and you're like, man, we're
going downhill from here.
I gotta bring this back around.
Or this is gonna go out in a wayI do not want.

Amy (01:12:53):
That's it.
You know, it's, it's like, it'sthat, it's that psychological
kind of, um, it's uh, what doyou call that?
It's like a reverse psychology.

Alice (01:13:02):
Yes, yes.
It works either way.
Yeah.

Amy (01:13:04):
So, so basically working with students is, uh, you know,
Andrea Spooner, I have to giveher credit for, and all my
editors, really, every editorI've ever worked with, um, they
all taught me how to really dothat and really give good
feedback and give feedback in agreat way.
And I hope, um, and, you know,um, look for those elements.

(01:13:25):
I really, I.
I don't, I don't think I couldever teach anyone how to do it.
It's just sort of, it's the sameway as I look at my own work,
though.
I care about other people's workto say this, it's your baby.
I'm gonna work on your baby withyou.
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be bluntabout you.
Your baby needs a bath.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like this, this child needs somewashing, or you know, this child
needs a haircut or whatever.
Like, um, and, but you candecide what, you know, whether

(01:13:48):
you wanna give them a mullet orbangs or whatever, you know?

Alice (01:13:51):
Mm-hmm.
Yep.

Amy (01:13:52):
It's your choice.

Alice (01:13:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that.
Um, while we're talking aboutstudents and in particular now
going even younger to teens andyoung people, um, on the one
hand you've got highlyinsightful person who lived next
door to you one time and toldyou no one writes books before
40.
So thanks for that stunningwisdom.

(01:14:14):
Um, but there's something realabout what you gain in your
writing as you age.
But on the flip side, you lovespeaking to teens, and I know
that there are some listeners tothis podcast who are teens.
So what would you say to ourteen listeners who are working
on their novels of their own andabout the revision process or
writing in general?

Amy (01:14:32):
I love teen novelists there.
Like I, teenagers are thesmartest people on the planet.
And I say that to them and theythink maybe I'm pandering and I
am so not.
I have to deal with adults everyday.
I love teenagers because theystill have a huge connection to
their emotions and the truth oftheir lives and their emotions.
And sometimes, actually, I don'teven, I'm not even sure, like I,
again, I'm doing thisdissertation at the moment and

(01:14:54):
like the amount of research I'mreading about Gen Z
specifically, and actually somemillennials as well who have
the, the, the, the people inAmerica who have had to, um,
hiding closets from, um,potential intruders.
Okay.
So we're gonna, we're gonna lookat that trauma and we're gonna
talk about how no one talksabout it.
And then we're gonna talk aboutthe fact that if a teen brings

(01:15:14):
up that trauma, then someadult's gonna be like, well, you
know, it's for, I don't carewhat they say after that.
It doesn't even matter.
Just shut up a kid's telling youthey're traumatized.
Be quiet.
Right?
And now we can use that thingthat, that's more universal.
Literally every kid does it.
And you're gonna have a lot ofkids to learn.
I'm not traumatized by that.
Yeah, sure.
You're not.
You know what?
I've got numbers prove youwrong.
Um, so, you know, and that'sjust how it goes.

(01:15:35):
There's actual research on you,um, and that's out there and
it's real.
Um, but I think teenagers arereally, really close to, not
because they're emotional.
Um, I don't believe that at all.
I believe that they're veryinsightful and very smart, and
they, they haven't censoredthemselves.
Yet as much as we learned to do,and they haven't done the
dreaded, the dreaded work, whichwas always misinterpreted and

(01:15:58):
misspoken, or maybe it wasn't,maybe it was entirely
intentional, but they haven'tdone the dreaded work of growing
up yet.
Whatever growing up is growingup is bullshit.
Absolute bullshit.
The first thing that they tellyou to do is leave your child
self behind and leave your teenself behind.
Oh my God, teenagers are soembarrassing.
No, actually they're not.
Teenagers are 11 to 19 yearsold.
That's a pretty goddamnimportant part of your life.

(01:16:19):
If you leave that behind, you'veleft your whole self behind
because that's where you learnedall your shit.
And if you decide to leave thatbehind, you're gonna, you're,
you're literally going to besomeone else.
You're gonna be a fake, you'regonna be a phony.
And you know what?
That's gonna screw up your life.
He's gonna screw up your life.
You're gonna hit the traumaaround 45.
Divorce is probably inevitable.
Um, and you know what I mean?
Like, things are gonna fall topieces instead of you going, oh,

(01:16:40):
I gotta pivot now.
'cause that's what life's about.
Pivoting, pivot, pivot, pivot.
That's what it's really allabout.
And that's what growing upreally is.
It just means, oh, I'm 20 now,shit, I gotta pay rent.
Which right now, I don't evenknow how anybody does that.
Um, but you know, like, now it'stime to do this.
I gotta figure this out.
And, and you go from there.
But teen writers, man, pleasetell your stories.
That's, that's, that's all Ihave to say.

(01:17:01):
Tell the stories.
They're worth it.
It's worth it.
And you know what?
And remember how hard it was toplay the trumpet.
Remember how hard it was tolearn how to, whatever it is you
do, play hockey.
Um, and just.
Trust yourself.
And it's not, it may not be yourfirst book.
It usually isn't.
I have to say that most booksthat get published traditionally
are not your first books.

(01:17:21):
Um, but it's worth going topractice and sweating and doing
those wind sprints and learninghow to dribble and, you know,
all those different things.
Um, and, and learning yourscales.
You know, my daughter was a, ajazz saxophonist and I remember
when she'd be like, oh God,these scales.
And then one day she knew herscales so well, her improv just
kicked in and she could improvany song if she knew what key it

(01:17:43):
was in.
She was, she could do it.
And I remember looking at herlike, you were nine years old.
The hell you do that.
Like, but it's because thisscales, right?
So you gotta practice and it's,it sucks, but it's, it's part of
it.
And here's the deal.
If you wanna be a writer, yougotta do it.
And yeah, those days like I'mhaving now, like, oh, I can't
wait to get this book off mydesk.
Yeah, I've been writing for 30years.
I'm still gonna feel like that.
But lemme tell you, like thefirst 40 pages, I loved this

(01:18:04):
book and I still love this book.
And I can't wait till this bookis polished up and beautiful and
I don't ever have to work on itagain.
But what words do I have forJust go do it.
Do it, do it, do it.
Don't, don't stop.
And don't, don't worry aboutwhat people are gonna say.
Don't hold back on the truth.
Just tell the truth, man.
That's it for every writer,honestly.
But teenagers I just think arejust closer to it and um, and I

(01:18:25):
think that they're the most.
Censored group of people becausewe have to tell, because they're
trying, constantly trying totell you the truth about how
they feel, what's going on inthe world.
Like what they, what they feel,because they're, they're
learning the world too.
Like they have opinions and nowthey have, you know, they have
social media like we do too.
And people are always like, oh,kids are always on their phone.
I'm afraid it's adults.
I don't know if you've been to arestaurant lately, but it's

(01:18:45):
adults that are on their phones,first of all, second of sort
teens, but that's not the point.
Um, you know, but like, theyknow more than we ever knew that
we, you know, I, I, I was a bigworld news watcher, but like, I
don't know.
I just think that their opinionsare fantastic and I think that
their stories are worth it.
And I think that if you'retelling stories, if you're using
creative expression when you'reyoung, you got a superpower.

(01:19:08):
You got a superpower for therest of your life.
If you are creativelyexpressing, I don't care if it's
in a journal and you become anaccountant, it doesn't matter.
That journal is gonna make you adifferent person, that people
who don't, from people who don'twrite down their truth
somewhere.

Alice (01:19:23):
Yeah.
Oh man, I love it.
Like, just snaps to all of that.
It's just, that's so good.
what do you love about revision?

Amy (01:19:35):
Oh, the possibility Revision is all about
possibility.
I mean, being able to look at.
Um, it's the way a hairdressermust look at hair, right?
I remember the, I a goodhairdresser, right?
I remember going to Michael, myhairdresser the first time and
he pulled my hair out.
He did all the, oh God, yourhair's so gorgeous.

(01:19:56):
And I'm looking at him, I'mlike, what are you even talking
about?
He gave me the most bodacious,epic layers that I have ever
seen in my hair.
And I'm like, this man knowswhat he is doing.
And I was like, look, make itlook like I have a jawline.
Please.
Can I have a chin back?
Like I am in my, you know, likeearly fifties.
Can we, can we?
And he's like, yes.

(01:20:17):
Um, and so the possibilities,when I look at a manuscript, I
know how many possibilities arein there and, and whether it's
someone else's or mine, butespecially mine, I think when it
comes to Rev, you get to cutthose layers.
You know what the bonus ofwriting is?
That it's not like hair.
Um, if you screw up, you can hitthe go back button.
Um, you can go retrieve thestuff that you cut, you know,

(01:20:39):
from your cut file and you don'thave to wait for your hair to
grow back.
You can do it pretty instantly.
But yeah, the possibilities arejust endless.

Alice (01:20:46):
I love asking this questionbecause the answer is always
different, is there anything inparticular that you would like
this audience of fiction writerswho are revising their novels to
excellence, figuring out theirway through that revision
process?
Is there anything in particularyou'd like them to know about
you?

Amy (01:21:10):
Yeah, um, maybe like them.
I've known since I was a veryyoung child that my feelings
mattered and that what myexperience was mattered.
I take the time when I go toauditoriums full of teenagers.
Um, I make sure that in thattime I tell them three things,

(01:21:33):
which is that your feelingsmatter, your experience matters
and your voice matters.
And one of the most interestingthings is that I very rarely
talk to adults, but they don'tknow that they're adult adults
don't know that adults dunnothat their feelings matter and
they don't know that theirexperiences matter and they
don't know that their voicematters.

(01:21:54):
Um, and so I guess I want allwriters to hear that.
I want them to understand thatremember that little kid and
that if they're listening to mesay this right now, then they
do.
They do remember that little kidand they remember that kid that
was upset.
Everyone blew him off.
That's who you're writing for.
You're writing for that person.
Even if you're writing adultthrillers, that's who you're

(01:22:16):
writing for.
I think it's really important toknow that, that when you're
sitting there, it really justisn't just like about telling
stories and making money andmaking, and, you know, putting
pages inside of covers.
It's about, I know telling yourstory through the lens of all
these characters that come outof you and, and that every

(01:22:36):
single one of'em is important.
Your experiences that you'reholding back.
Oh, I couldn't write about thatbecause people would know.
Actually, no, you'd be surprisedat how many people don't have
any idea.
Um, once you put anothercharacter in another lens and,
and you weird it up that youknow that it has anything to do
with you.
Um, and you'll be surprised athow many people will read your
books and say, oh, I didn't knowthat you once had a red car.

(01:22:58):
You're like, what are youtalking about?
It's a fiction, it's a novel.
Oh, I didn't realize that youreally liked, you know,
spaghetti.
What are you talking about?
This is a character in a book.
You know, so it's gonna be, it'salways an interesting thing, but
in the end, like it is all aboutyour voice and your experiences
and your feelings.
That's it.
It's all writing is.

(01:23:18):
Beautiful.
Right?
There wasn't much more I couldsay after that.
So that's where Amy and I endedour conversation about revision.
We kept talking for anotherhour.
Her latest novel picked the lockwas released last fall, and she
has a wild story about thechallenges that she experienced
during that launch.
I'll share that conversation inthe next guest episode of the

(01:23:40):
podcast but for now.
I wanna give you space to digestwhat she just said.
That writing is about yourvoice, your experiences, and
your feelings, and that thoseall matter.
And I wanna share some of thethings that I'm taking away from

(01:24:01):
Amy's revision process.
Here's what stuck out to meFirst, there's the how, the
literal steps that she follows.
To revise her manuscripts.
I'll walk you through thatprocess again.
Amy knows the general point ofthe story from the beginning,
and she discovers the specificsof the ending through writing

(01:24:22):
the first draft.
She uses the surrealist writingmethod.
Which sounded to me like perhapsthe purest form of Pantsing, but
when she gets stuck, she callsher plotter friend David Gill,
creator of the sticky note plotmethod to help her untangle plot
problems.
I did look up his website andyou can find it in the show
notes.

(01:24:43):
At this point in her career, Amydoes revise as she writes, and
so by the time she finishes thatfirst draft, the story has
largely taken shape when thatdraft is complete, She does her
holy shit chainsaw revision.
Where she ruthlessly cuts 10 to20% of the word count largely by
removing redundancies.
Then she reads a lot of poetryand listens to a lot of music

(01:25:06):
while she's working through thenext draft, which is all about
refining the language.
After that, she's ready to sendit to her editor and to her
agent at the same time.
When she sends it to her editor,she includes a list of all the
things that she already knows.
Need help.
the feedback her editor givesher at this point in her career
tends to be more of a heavy lineedit rather than significant

(01:25:28):
structural changes.
Her editor also brings a lot ofmarket awareness, taking into
account where the book will siton bookstore shelves.
She does not always agree withher editor's feedback.
In fact, she's had manyinstances where she vehemently
disagreed With an editor oragent, but she found ways to
apply the feedback anyway, andthose revisions have always made

(01:25:49):
the book better.
One thing I did notice about howAmy describes her process is
that so much of how she shapesher stories is intuitive.
There are some parts shestruggled to describe.
Some parts she doesn't recommendto other writers and some parts
she can't really teach, andthat's why this is not an
entirely solo process.

(01:26:09):
When she needs plot support, shecalls in her plotting friend,
and when she's taken themanuscript as far as she can,
she brings in her editor.
Intuition can take you a long,long way, and where you get
stuck, that's where you can gethelp.
So that's the how.
How Amy revises her manuscripts.
Even more than that, I love herperspective on revision.

(01:26:32):
In fact, I'm just gonna let hershare my favorite quotes.
Again,
Revising is about making sure that you're saying what you
wanna say yes in the way youwanna say it.
there's so many roads you cantake with every sentence.
Alice, once we close the door,can do anything she wants and we
can change that in a bookanytime.
We can actually just cut thewhole last third of the book and
change the whole last third ofthe book if we need to.

(01:26:53):
to me, revision is the sport.
It's the impact.
It's the, it's the reason.
It's the reason we're writers.
every revision is worth it.
I can't say it any better thanthat.
if you loved this conversation,I have good news.
There's a lot more where thiscame from.
Like I said, I'll be sharingwhat Amy has to say about her

(01:27:13):
publishing experience on thepodcast soon.
In the meantime, I encourage youto check out Amy's books.
Read the dust of a hundred DogsAnd watch for the 14 sentences
about pirate feelings that madethe entire book work.
Read, ask the passengers and seehow Amy shaped the ending and

(01:27:34):
made Astrid Jones come out in away that fulfilled her editor's
recommendations while retainingthe heart of the book.
Read Attack of the BlackRectangles and watch for how Amy
showed and told her charactersasexual identity in ways that
were so profoundly meaningful toher readers that she's received
heartfelt fan mail, thanking herfor the representation.

(01:27:57):
Read, dig and discover all thedisparate, seemingly random
ideas that Amy Subconscioussupplied to her during her
surrealist writing sessions.
A kid with a shovel, a freak, amysterious fifth cousin, and how
she shaped all the ideas thatshe pe into a Prince Award
winning novel.
Read, pick the lock and see howAmy followed the point she knew

(01:28:19):
she was making.
That her confined feminist punkswould smash patriarchy, not get
smashed by it, and wrote her wayto the end to discover how they
do it in ways that surprisedeven her.
And if you figure out whatStation six is or how far it all
goes, do let us know.
You can order these books andall EM'S books from her local

(01:28:40):
bookstore, Erin's books Amy willeven sign and personalize the
books that you order from Erin'sbooks.
Just make sure you fill out theform to indicate you'd like
them.
Signed.
The link to Erin's books is inthe show notes.
And don't forget, you candownload this entire reading
list to see what to watch for ineach book and what Amy said
about each one's revisionprocess.

(01:29:00):
Go to alice sulo.com/ 82 to grabthat, and of course that link is
in the show notes as well.
You can find Amyonline@asking.com.
She's also on Instagram and BlueSky.
and I'll let Amy have the finalword.
it is all about your voice and your experiences and your

(01:29:21):
feelings.
That's it.
It's all writing is.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Surrealist Pantser A.S. King Revises Award-Winning Novels

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

All Episodes

How Surrealist Pantser A.S. King Revises Award-Winning Novels

Dateline NBC