Scene Workshop: Hook Your Readers in Chapter One with Cathryn deVries

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You've put all this work intouncovering your characters,
internal arc.
You know them so well, when youstep into a scene, you're giving
your absolute all to uncoveringthe deep meaning and purpose
behind it.
The profound arc of charactertransformation that's happening
in even the smallest moments.

(00:20):
Yet in doing all that.
You've lost the plot.
You've crafted complex in ourworlds for your characters, But
all they're literally doing isstaring off into space.
And you're worried that in thetimes, when you most want to
hook your readers, like yourabsolutely critical opening
pages, you're boring theminstead.

(00:42):
Board readers, put books down.
So, what do you do?
Throw in some discord andexplosions to create external
chaos, cut the scene and startthe story at a different point
entirely.
Or is there a way to use whatyou know of your characters,
internal arc to find the perfectexternal action that will hook

(01:03):
your readers and keep themturning pages?
This is exactly the challengethat Cathryn DeVries encountered
in the first chapter of hernovel.
So we workshopped it together.
And in this episode, you'll hearhow we solved it And how you can
hook your readers to.

(02:06):
Welcome to your next draft.
I have such an exciting episodein store for you today.
First though, I want to let youknow about an opportunity open
right now in another writingspace.
My friend, Savannah Gilbo is awonderful editor book, coach and
writing teacher.
She and I trained together asstory grid editors way back in

(02:26):
2017.
And I just so admire everythingthat she's done to support
writers since.
Savannah's flagship course iscalled notes to novel.
And it's designed to help youturn your idea for a novel, into
a solid first draft.
She's all about writing storiesthat work using writing
processes that are efficient andeffective, and she's put

(02:47):
everything she's learned fromyears of training, under
experts, studying story andcoaching writers into this
course.
That means that notes to novelis the perfect place to start.
If you're dreaming of writingyour first novel.
But it's also a really powerfulresource for writers.
Who've already written a book orthree, But who wants to find a
more efficient way to writestronger first drafts?

(03:10):
In the course, Savannah willwalk you through a proven
process to develop your spark ofinspiration.
Into a novel idea that cansupport an entire draft.
She'll help you create a planfor that draft.
That's robust enough to keep youfrom getting stuck when you
write yet flexible enough toallow you to explore and
discover your story.
And she'll give you the toolsand structure.

(03:32):
You need to start and finishwriting that draft.
Savannah opens the course just acouple of times a year.
And if you're listening to thisepisode on the day that it airs
right now is one of thosewindows.
If this is piquing yourinterest, go to dot.
Com slash notes to novel tocheck it out and maybe even
joined the course.

(03:53):
And yes, that is an affiliatelink, Which means if you do
decide to join, Savannah willkick a few dollars my way.
But I am always so delighted toshare Savannah stuff because I
know firsthand how awesome allher materials are and how
awesome she is to you.
And your story will be in suchgood hands with her.

(04:14):
Now let's talk about today'sepisode.
I have wanted for years to bringguests onto this podcast.
And it's happened about once ina blue moon, but in 2025, we're
changing that.
This is the very first in awhole lineup of guest episodes
that I have for you.
And I'm so excited to share it.

(04:35):
In this episode, I'm bringing onauthor Cathryn deVries, one of
my clients To workshop a sceneof her novel together.
Workshopping scenes is one of myfavorite things to do.
It might actually be my numberone favorite thing to do as an
editor.
I love when a writer sends me ascene, I read it and then we get
on a call to talk it through andfind our way together towards

(04:58):
the perfect edits to make it.
Unputdownable.
And this year, every othermonth, I'll be sharing those
conversations right here on thepodcast.
So you can witness firsthandwhat the editing process really
looks like.
I believe these episodes will begreat companions to the, how to
content that I share in my soloepisodes.
In the solo episodes, I shareediting theory.

(05:20):
And then the scene workshopepisodes.
You'll hear me put that theoryinto practice.
In these episodes.
I want to show you the problemsthat I identify in a specific
scene, the solutions, thewriter, and I find for those
problems and the journey we taketo get there.
I hope they scene edits, inspireyou to identify similar problems

(05:40):
and follow a similar path tofind solutions in your own
scenes.
And I hope that as you listen tothese conversations, you start
to feel maybe a little lessnervous and a little more
excited.
To share your writing with aneditor to Maybe me.
Writers.
Tell me all the time.
This is a really lovelyexperience, not scary at all,
but invigorating and excitingand inspiring.

(06:03):
And I hope that the more you getto witness that the more you'll
feel that too.
So today I'm bringing onCathryn.
She started working with me alittle over a year ago in the
story refinery, where we metonce a week for about 10 months
and edited her novel scene byscene from start to finish.
And she's volunteered to be ourGuinea pig for these new scene.
Edit episodes.

(06:24):
Cathryn is one part of amother-daughter writing team.
She won the 20, 23 Stuart andhad a short story prize where
their story, when a slave falls.
The scene you'll hear usworkshopping is from the first
chapter of her romantic, epicfantasy trilogy.
Which fans of Brandon Sandersonand Jr.
Token will feel right at homein, she began writing this novel

(06:45):
to capture the story her familywas telling and her daughter
Emalyn's Dungeons and dragonsHomebrew campaign.
She's now in the submissionprocess And as you'll hear in
our conversation, she's gottensome really helpful publisher
feedback on her first chapterthat prompted us to revisit her
opening scene.
Before I share our conversation,though.
I recommend that you go readCathryn's scene.

(07:06):
You can get the scene by goingto Alice the.com/ 76 enter your
email in the form there.
And you'll get the scene in yourinbox.
You can continue listeningwithout reading it.
But Cathryn and I have both readthe scene and in our
conversation, we assume that youhave as well.
So go to Alisando.
Dot com slash 76, or find thatlink in the show notes and take

(07:27):
a read.
For an extra challenge, you caneven put on your editor hat as
you read and think about thechanges you would suggest in
order to make it.
Unputdownable.
All right.
You've got the scene.
You've read it through.
Ready to dive in.
Let's go.

Alice (07:45):
welcome, Cathryn! I'm so excited to have you here.

Cathryn (07:50):
I'm so excited to be here, Alice.
This is awesome.

Alice (07:54):
We've been talking about doing this for, I think,
literally years at this point,having you come on the podcast.
So I'm really excited thatyou're making your podcast
debut.
It's fun.
It's, it's, it's past time.
It's overdue.

Cathryn (08:06):
Yes.
Yeah, this is this is great.

Alice (08:08):
how are you feeling now about this scene?
And this, uh, not just being onthe podcast, but the scene that
we are coming in to workshopnow, how are you feeling about
digging into it?

Cathryn (08:19):
I'm really excited because, I've just rewritten
this scene recently, cut downfrom something that was probably
about twice as long.
and, it just feels so muchstronger than what was there
already.
And I know like, you're going towork your magic and just, like,

(08:39):
make it, just even better.
you're going to pull up thehighs and you're going to bring
down the lows and it's theopening scene and I know it's
just going to bring in readersand get them invested, so much
more than I'm able to do on myown.
So yeah, I'm pumped.

Alice (08:57):
Good.
I'm glad.
I love that.
I mean, you know what you're infor.
So you're not afraid of thisprocess.
So the first time that writersdo this, they're usually a
little nervous, but, but youknow, what's coming.
So, What has your journey beenwith this book so far?
how many drafts have you done ofthis book, and what was your
focus in each of those drafts?

Cathryn (09:17):
Okay I actually don't really know how many drafts I've
done I would say at least sevenMy the focus of the first draft
was just to get the story on thepage Just to get the words out
and I had no idea what I wasdoing so that made sense and
then I kind of did thingsbackwards Because my second

(09:37):
draft I was trying to polish mywords And I shouldn't have been
trying to polish my words thenBut I I had no idea what I was
doing so that's what I did thenas I was reading through,
polishing my words that's when Istarted noticing that story
itself could be improved and soEmalyn and I were brainstorming

(10:00):
ways to actually improve thestory and get things happening
in a just a made a bit moresense and had.
logic behind them So we startedlayering in that kind of stuff
and just tightening so that Youknow the characters weren't
going back and forward betweenplaces unnecessarily like that

(10:25):
and so then I had more readersuh then I introduced probably
something that was like about athird draft And we got some more
feedback about various thingsthat we could improve and I
think I I got to about the fifthdraft and I had a major
realisation that my antagonistwas part of the climax.

Alice (10:50):
no oh

Cathryn (10:51):
It just seems so obvious now and I thought Oh my
goodness I really have to dosomething about that So I
restructured again to make surehe was in the climax.
and I think it was about at thatpoint that I took it to Kim, and
then goodness he was in theclimax because I think that

(11:14):
really made it a lot easier onKim so then uh Kim and I yeah
for the first time I created ascene list um and I'd I'd heard
you talk about scene lists Idreaded the idea of creating a
scene list like you know I justthere was there was resistance

(11:36):
there I created my first scenelist and then we created
quadrants and things started tofall into place so that very
much structural with Kim.
then I had to redraft had to getI had to redraft according to
the scene list.
So I would be constantlyreferring to the scene list of,
now what is this scene supposedto do?

(11:58):
Let's take the existing materialthat I have repurpose it There a
lot repurposing going on.
So that draft felt good becausehad the baseline.
I was just changing theunderlying meaning so scene now

(12:19):
contributed to the overallthemes of the story and the
overall through line ofeveryone's arcs much more
cohesively.
and I was halfway through thatprocess when we working So I was
simultaneously getting the bookredrafted and working on the

(12:40):
opening scenes getting Gettingthose scenes working applying
the five commandments and andhow, learning what for scenes,
and just levelling up my writingastronomically I, I will say,
far more than the and a halfwhatever years before that when

(13:05):
I was just focusing on polishingmy words.
the work with you and Kim, yeahjust levelled up my writing in a
way that I I didn't evenanticipate

Alice (13:17):
I love that.
That's so exciting.
That's delightful.
That's what I hope for everybodyis that the editing process like
not only helps your single bookget better, but you as a writer
in all of your skills just levelup.
So where does this scene, sinceyou've been through this draft
multiple times, or we've beenthrough this manuscript multiple
times, where does this Um, and Ihope that this specific scene

(13:39):
revision that we're doing todayfit into your larger editing
process in terms of what you'vealready done and what's coming
next for you with this story.

Cathryn (13:48):
Okay well I've actually got an offer of publication for
this story now but I needed tomake some Yes I do but I needed
to make some revisions prior topublication So this this fits in
this is a final step beforepublication just getting this
opening scene like sharper andtighter and getting the action

(14:12):
going faster than it previouslywas so that it captures the
reader's investment like veryyou know much quicker than the
previous incarnation of thisscene was a lot longer and it
had a different focus soAstariel's goal has changed in
this scene now and it's actuallymuch more aligned with the story

(14:36):
so yeah that's where this Iguess particular edit fits in so
yeah this this scene has beenreworked a number of times And I
think this is now its final form

Alice (14:53):
Yeah, I laugh at that just because this is.
The first scene of the novel.
I mean, you have a prologue aswell.
So it's not the very first pagesthat people pick up, but it is
chapter one.
It is the first scene of chapterone.
And that's like, notoriously theplace where writers just
recursively spin.

(15:13):
I joked with a writer once thatwe should publish a book that
was just all of the versions ofchapter one that he wrote,
because it would be long enoughto be a book itself.
So, yeah.
Of course, this scene inparticular has seen many
revisions.
Um, could you read the summarythat you shared with me of the
story as a whole?

Cathryn (15:32):
Okay As heir to the Elven Protectorate which has
safeguarded the Harkening Woodsand its surrounding villages for
centuries Astariel is honourbound to obey her father Lord
Ashron in all things ButAstariel who possesses the
unique ability to connect to theliving musical threads of the
Weave energetic mesh of creationfrom which all magic springs

(15:55):
Dreams of leaving her cloisteredexistence to pursue bardic
mastery Plagued by an evil he'skept secret from everyone father
upends both tradition andAstariel's life by permitting
her to go on one conditionremains single Any intimate
connection will spell the end ofAstariel's training and all hope

(16:16):
of restoring her fracturedrelationship with him The one
thing she wants even more thanmastery But when Astariel
ventures south she finds itincreasingly difficult to uphold
her oath beginning with themoment she meets the talented
chivalrous and weaver's mercydistractingly handsome Eris with
whom she shares a deep andunique harmony To complicate

(16:39):
matters the Weave's requirementsare at odds with her father's
for it demands she forge aconnection with Eris in order to
move to higher levels of masteryThrough missteps heartbreak and
betrayal the weave ultimatelyreveals the truth to Astariel A
partnership rooted in love isthe only thing capable of saving
her ancestral home pursuing thatpath will require going against

(17:02):
the one man to whom she haspledged lifelong fealty father

Alice (17:07):
Excellent.
I know you've worked really hardon creating that summary as
well, so well done for that.

Cathryn (17:14):
excellent

Alice (17:15):
capturing of the story.
So, Now let's go ahead and diginto the scene itself.
What are your Impressions ofthis scene right now?
What feels like it's workingreally well, and what do you
have hesitations around?

Cathryn (17:33):
Okay I like Astariel's new and more concise I don't
know what the word is but hergoal which was much more I don't
know it wasn't it wasn't asgreat Anyway this is more
focused and leads in better fromthe prologue because she's got
this hesitancy of I know I haveto go back home but I don't want

(17:58):
to and so I really likeddiscovering new goal I think
yeah I think I like that a lotalso I like that I was able to
bring out some of the new forher life through hinting at it
in dialogue rather than actuallyhaving her internal monologue

(18:23):
give that information I reallylike that another thing thing I
was really proud of inconstructing this scene was when
we get to the crisis moment andshe has to choose do I delay
further going home or do I justsuck it up and go she's already

(18:43):
previous like this this was alittle another little thing I
noticed as I was editing thescene and I got her aid Maven to
trigger off that crisis momentbut she had already previously
thought of the delay tactic ofwell maybe I could just send the
others ahead and because, Cinderin the group is in a really get

(19:07):
to the healers.
He's in a bad shape.
So that's that's the pressurepushing her to to go so well
maybe I can just send them aheadand, and I can just stay out a
little bit longer, breathe alittle bit longer and then his
condition worsens and then Mavenactually says well maybe we can
send the others ahead and thenshe's like uh no, like I can't

(19:30):
do that.
So I kind of liked that she'dalready thought of that solution
and like she was almost about todo it but then when Maven says
it that's when she's like, Ican't and I really liked that
little aspect yeah the I'm, lessconfident about is the range of

(19:50):
emotion I was able to to pullout of the scene so I know the
highs are probably or the Idon't know if there is that many
of a high in this scene but thelow could possibly could
probably be lower and thetension that she feels could
probably be sharper to reallyget readers feeling you know

(20:14):
intense sympathetic you knowreaction to her plight so that's
yeah that's the thing that I wasreally hoping to to to do with
this scene with you is just getit as sharp as it can possibly
be

Alice (20:27):
Yeah, for sure.
And especially because it's theopening scene, like, it's the
hook to the story as well.
We want to pull people in reallyquickly, so this is the time
where it's like, don't save yourbest work for something later.
Put it all up front.
This is up front best work.
Get the readers in so they'rebought in to keep going.

(20:49):
So getting those highs reallyhigh and the lows really low and
feeling that movement andmomentum and intrigue early is
really important.
I love what you're saying about,like everything you're noting
about the goal and the way ofintegrating information through
dialogue as opposed to internalmonologue.

(21:09):
Like, I think that's, I lovedseeing that happen.
I can feel the difference.
I think where I want to dig in,I think that ooh I'm I have
multiple directions right nowthat I could go and I'm trying
to pick which one let's startoff with.
Let's start off with talkingabout that goal.
Like, tell me more about thatgoal, what her goal is, and why

(21:31):
that feels really aligned withthe story.
And, do you remember what thegoal was of the previous scene?
Because I remember it beingdifferent, but I don't remember
what it was.
It's been a while since I readthe scene.

Cathryn (21:40):
I can't actually off the top of my head but I knew it
was fuzzier

Alice (21:44):
Mm.
Mm hmm.

Cathryn (21:45):
and it and it didn't it didn't have the it didn't have
the double barreled nature ofthe new story grid setup of I
want this without this

Alice (21:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Cathryn (21:57):
and Yeah.
that's what makes this onethat's one of the reasons this
one is a lot sharper yeah it wasjust a it was more to do with
her wanting to do her wantingbardic mastery and and wanting
her father to to support thatjourney I think that was what
the previous goal hmm

Alice (22:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That tracks.
Yeah.
That tracks.
so tell me about the goal now.
Like, what is this goal and whatmakes it feel really aligned?

Cathryn (22:26):
Okay so her goal now is to delay going back home without
either endangering Cinder orticking off her father

Alice (22:40):
Okay.
Excellent.
And why does that feel alignedwith the story?

Cathryn (22:46):
Well because it it really captures Astariel's
character I think of her beingbigger too big for the cage that
she's been put in and she's justcome up like she's she's just
had her coming of age ceremonythe day before and that's like a

(23:06):
big event in an elf's life andshe got to choose her new name
and like define herself you knowin this new way you know getting
into adult way but she stillfeels like she's restricted And
difference between yesterday andtoday is you know that you know

(23:29):
yesterday she was still a childand today she is an adult but
she's not being treated like anadult and so Yesterday she could
have gone home straight away notreally thought about it just
like yes I've got to obey dadand fine But today it feels

(23:51):
different It's like I shouldn'thave to do this And there's ten
there's thattension of tensionyeah I'm I'm I'm too big I'm too
big for this for this cage thatI've been put in and yet the a
very caring character and shecares deeply what other people

(24:13):
think and also their theirgeneral well being So you know
she's got this injured member ofher party

Alice (24:31):
Okay.

Cathryn (24:45):
she doesn't want to she doesn't want him to be annoyed
now at this moment so that likeknow might throw another spanner
in the works or something know,she's got this feeling in the of
her head that you know maybelike, if she if she annoys him
that he's gonna somehow postponethat again so I think this

(25:09):
particular goal has a lot moretension to it, because she
really is pulled in twodifferent directions One her
caring side the other her realcommitment to growth side

Alice (25:25):
Yeah, okay.
There's so much good stuff ineverything you just said.
Like that's So rich and good,useful fuel that I want to
really highlight in this scene.
I think, so some things I wantto highlight of what you just
said are the fact that today isdifferent than yesterday.

(25:46):
That the tensions she's feelingtoday are heightened from what
they were yesterday.
I think that that's implied inthis scene, and I think you've
got some specific pieces ofinformation that are really,
like, directly pointing at it,especially if.
We understand the context of anElven coming of age ceremony,

(26:07):
but I don't think that the full,like, weight of that is super
clear on the page.
Like, we know the context, weknow that she just had her
coming of age ceremony, but Ididn't really understand or like
fully internalize until you saidit just now, this idea that this
whole thing could have happened24 hours ago, and she would be
feeling very differently aboutit, because The transformation

(26:30):
that happened for her when shecrossed this coming of age
threshold is making her lookaround her life differently.
I mean, I think about when Iturned 30 and looked around my
life and I was like, Alright,it's time to like do the things
and no longer like plan to dothe things.
It's do the things time.
Like that's for her.
It's do the things time.
Uh, it's very different fromyesterday.

(26:51):
And so I think that that issomething that we can heighten
and clarify in here.
And I think that it, I thinkthat that, for me, feels really
key in terms of why this storyis starting here, and why when,
why it is that when you get thatfeedback from the publisher
saying start the story faster,That in this context doesn't

(27:14):
mean like start this at a laterscene.
It means that this is the momentthat we need to start the story
at.
The reader just really needs tounderstand like why the story
picked up right now.
And it picked up right nowbecause yesterday we had our
coming of age ceremony and todaywe can't wait anymore.
Like today we've got to move.
So I want to get some of thatenergy more strongly in the

(27:36):
scene.
Okay.

Cathryn (27:37):
Okay

Alice (27:37):
I know, I know my destination here but I'm gonna
take us on the coaching journeyto get there.
Tell me what the the elements ofstory are that you see in this
scene.
Like what do you see as theinciting incident,

Cathryn (27:51):
I've picked the inciting incident as being the
first line Estara reined herhorse as the northern side of it
all came into view So theInciting incident, is she sees
home Okay and then we have A fewprogressive complications, of So
the first one is like Rinfeldasks her why she stopped so that

(28:15):
kind of forces her to give somekind of explanation and she
chooses to lie which is a,pattern Astarial exhibits
through the whole first half ofthe novel that you know, when
she's feeling internal turmoilshe just tries to brush it aside

Alice (28:35):
What a reasonable and understandable reaction.
Let's just not feel bad.

Cathryn (28:43):
yes and then the next progressive complication I've
marked as Maven her aid kind oftells her you know we we should
get going you know but yesAstaroth still is not quite yet,
until we get to the turningpoint where Sindar the archer

(29:03):
who got injured Got bitten bybitten by spider He throws up,
and like you know just lookspretty awful and then Maven
states the obvious again that wereally need to get him home He's
going to become too weak to rideso that forces Astariel into the

(29:26):
crisis, which is do we a bitlonger or do we send our home
ASAP yeah So tarrying has theadvantages of just remaining
free a bit more out in the wildsand

Alice (29:46):
And

Cathryn (29:54):
understand how of a cloistered existence that she's,
she's had to live but like herfather is going to accept a in
their return if he thinks thatshe's disobeyed him then he's
angry and she really wants himto happy at this point in time

(30:16):
but the sooner she gets home thesooner she is under scrutiny
again So that's why she's stillfeeling this.
know I don't I I just reallydon't want to go home Yeah Okay
so Climax she grits her teeth

Alice (30:33):
gets moving Okay.

Cathryn (30:35):
the caring and people pleasing side wins then the
resolution is when she does gethome and she brings the
pheasants that they hunted tothe kitchens she that the Master
Bard has personally arrived atthe Ciderdale and there's
they're going to be preparing afeast that night for him And so

(30:55):
she just gets super excited It'slike it's I'm, I'm I came home
now because, know, now get toable to break the news to and
see his reaction because hisreaction going to tell her a lot
about you know, how he's, howhe's feeling about this, and she

(31:17):
she wants to see it.
so being the one the news,little bit of a unexpected
bonus, I guess, her, and thenshe gets quite like excited but
anxious at the same time Likeknow, he going to say yeah So
that's what I picked out as thecommandments in this scene The

(31:40):
resolution is almost a miniscene in and of itself it its
own, clear five commandmentswithin it.
but I wasn't sure to treat it asa completely separate scene or
not

Alice (31:56):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, and all of this analysismakes sense.
I could definitely, see thecrisis space in the scene.
and I did not pre analyze thisbecause I knew you were going to
come in with the analysis.
And so I knew you were going tobe able to tell me.
But, like, that all tracks withwhat I felt intuitively going

(32:17):
through the scene.
Okay, here's my big thoughtabout this scene.
I think And keep in mind, we'restarting from the place, and I
agree with you, where the goaldirectedness of this feels very
aligned, like it feels like it'sstarting in the right place with
goal directedness.
The, the challenge that I see inthis scene right now is that if

(32:42):
we look at this from theperspective of the external
action happening in this scene.
We get a star real sitting onher horse with Sindar and her
team next to her looking at theCitadel and then walking into
the Citadel.

Cathryn (33:01):
External action has always been my weakness

Alice (33:08):
So I think we can ramp it up.
I think we can.
I think we can create.
External context that's going tocarry these internal arcs, um,
this internal arc in a way thatis also like gripping and hooky
and exciting for the reader.
So, um, let's back up to, okay,so we know that.

(33:36):
The, the kind of concept we'regoing around with here, the
purpose of this scene, the whybehind this scene is this idea
that Astariel doesn't want to gohome, that going home feels like
entrapping herself in her, hercontinued prison that she's been
in all of her life, or for mostof her life, save for those few
early years when she had a goodrelationship with her father,

(33:56):
but now it feels reallyoppressive and like this prison,
which was something that shecould survive within until
yesterday when she passed hercoming of age, and now it just
feels like not only a.
prison, but almost an insultthat she's like, not, she's been
kind of waiting for thispermission to go live her life

(34:17):
and develop herself and grow andexplore.
And she keeps not getting thatpermission.
And today it rankles 10 timesmore heavily than it did
yesterday.
Does that all sound true?

Cathryn (34:30):
Yes

Alice (34:31):
perfect.
So with that in mind, Why didshe leave the Citadel?
Like, why isn't she in theCitadel right now?
What happened before this scenebegan?

Cathryn (34:42):
Oh okay she regularly goes out on hunting trips that's
a a normal thing regular thingso this you know she's just
arranged to go out this morningto bring in some food because
she likes to get out much as shecan especially lately she likes
developing her skills practicingher skills so this is a this is

(35:05):
a context that she has gainedpermission to to do it in as
long as she's got an eliteescort with her

Alice (35:15):
Excellent.
So, this is a hunting trip.
And it's a normal thing that shetypically does, and it feels
like a place where she canreally, like, express herself,
be herself, be larger than sheis within the Citadel.

Cathryn (35:28):
Yes probably should say something unusual happened on
this hunting trip because Sindaygot bitten by a spider which is
unusual and she was the one whonoticed that he was missing too
long and went after him andkilled the spider which is
something that she's never donebefore she's practiced archery

(35:49):
obviously but she's never hadthat opportunity to actually
save someone's life So she'sjust saved someone's life And,
and that also is playing intothis feeling of I'm bigger so it
was just a regular hundred meterbut it turned into something
more

Alice (36:07):
yeah.
So I'm gonna call that out too.
So she, yesterday was her comingof age, and today she feels
different.
It's time to do the thinginstead of Plan to do the thing
and she just saved someone'slife, which is huge.
Like that's a very I mean it isa signal of her strength and her

(36:28):
like Power and her, her, like,worthiness to be given more
responsibility and thought morehighly of than she is in this
space.
So, those right there, we've gottwo things that really already
heighten this scene.
So, I think, that, In terms ofthis arc that happens here,

(36:53):
where she's, away from theCitadel, and then has to, force
herself back into the Citadel,that feels Like those are good
bones.
What I want to do is stretchthat out over.
Can you bring in more of theaction that happened beforehand
into this so that all of thisprocessing is happening on top

(37:16):
of that action as opposed tohappening on top of her looking
at the citadel and going home.
How does that sound?

Cathryn (37:22):
Mmm it sounds good I just don't know how to do it
Yeah Haha

Alice (37:28):
Excellent.
So let's talk about it.
So I think just to kind ofcontextualize that idea more,
um, What that'll do is not onlyset up her emotional trajectory,
but it'll also set up the tonefor this story, which is a Life
or death stakes story.
This is their their major actioncomponents to the story.

(37:52):
And so setting up that The,okay, here's, here's the, the
line of inquiry I want to playthrough to see if it works.
What happens if

Cathryn (38:04):
Um and then uh

Alice (38:06):
pull the inciting incident back from the point
where she is, where she sees thenorthern citadel?
Can we give it a more punchyinciting incident than seeing
the citadel?
Can we put the inciting incidentat, like, the point when she
leaves to go on this huntingtrip or the point when she, is

(38:27):
out there with her, her team,like, something that's, like,
the inciting incident, okay, so,I'm thinking, if I look at the
inciting incident, the turningpoint, and the, The climax and
the resolution all together iskind of like a little

Cathryn (38:46):
Um

Alice (38:48):
that's not a triangle.
If I look at all of these piecesas really interconnected things,
the inciting incident heredoesn't quite feel aligned with
the resolution that um, I have,I have like a clear picture in

(39:11):
my mind, and I'm trying tofigure out how to put that into
words here.

Cathryn (39:15):
Um,

Alice (39:16):
Um I'm not scared of this.
I have a lot of clarity righthere.
It's here, Cathryn.
It's right here.
It's so clear.
There's such a great scene in mymind.
Um, I think that the idea of herwanting out and having to come

(39:37):
back in, that's so potent.
And So, can you give us aninciting incident at the
beginning that is her going out,that's establishing that I want
out, I want to be out there, andshe's getting this, like, taste
of out there, and yes, it's thesame thing in terms of it's a

(40:00):
hunting trip that she normallydoes, but the only way she's
going to get out there is thatit's this hunting trip, she
wants it to be bigger, it's Itcan't be bigger, but she's going
to eat up every moment of it, ofit being out there, and then the
turn is the thing that's goingto pull her back in.
So the turn is, I think that theturning point that I see making

(40:24):
sense right now is probablystill at point where it becomes
very clear that Sindar has to gohome.
Like, that's a requirement thatwe return home, and what that
is.
I think that that could be thepoint where, Sindar is, has just
been bitten and he's on theground.
Like, like, that's a much moreintense moment than the moment

(40:45):
when he's sitting on a horse.
His health is slowly tricklingaway and vomiting.
Like, there's, like, if he's, ifhe's, like, we're just seeing
the monster.
And here's what's also gallingabout this, to pull in this
other context about the factthat she has a gift that she

(41:05):
wants to develop.
If her gift were developed, shewouldn't have to go home, like,
this pole wouldn't be herebecause she'd be able to just
heal him, and she's, like, thefact that she can't heal him is
a part of the reason She needsto get out and it is also the

(41:30):
reason that is requiring her togo home now, which is just such
a, uh, uh, a frustrating gallingspace to be in and.
I think that you can add moreattention if she like, like her
time out in hunting gets cut offearly, like she had an
expectation.
Okay, so picture this.
She has an expectation cominginto this day where she's like,

(41:52):
I feel differently on Wednesdaythan I did on Tuesday, because
on Tuesday was not a normalTuesday.
I had my coming of age ceremony.
So I'm walking into Wednesdayfeeling like this adult
authority that I Haven't hadbefore and then question to
explore what are the signalsthat that's not being respected

(42:14):
not only that people areforgetting her name, but what
impact is this having on hermovement ability like what
impact is it having on herability to do the things she
wants to do it's it's.
discouraging if somebody forgetsyour name, but it doesn't stop
you from having agency.
There is more than just havingher name misspoken that's
happening to her right now.

(42:35):
So if you can set her up withlike being told no or something
at the beginning, and she'slike, the space that I've got is
this hunting trip.
I'm going to get six hours ofrelief from people who can't
respect me as an adult who has.

Cathryn (42:52):
be used to

Alice (42:53):
Choices and direction and a place that I need to go that
they're stopping me from gettingto and we're going to get to
that in a minute but like rightnow I just like the problem that
they don't even respect me as anadult is the problem so I'm
going to get out of here for 6hours and then she gets out of
here for 4 hours and 4 hours inthis spider comes down and it
bites Sindar and it's like Onthe one hand, it's terrible, and

(43:15):
it's terrifying, and it's like,man, they are right about going
out.
Going out is dangerous.
Going out has risks.
But, like, I am not going toback down from this, because
this is the thing that I havealways wanted to do.
Like, I want to, I know my roleis to be the kind of person who
can handle these risks.
I can do it.
I can kill this spider.
I can start healing Sindar.
I can't finish healing Sindar.

(43:37):
Like, I've hit against mylimitations and if I could, if I
could be the full person that Iwant to be, if people had
respected me in the past andprepared me for this, I wouldn't
even be in the position ofneeding to go back now.
But now, One, I have to go backbecause we're in, we have a
person who's actively in periland two, I'm losing two of my

(43:58):
four hours of my six hours offreedom.
I now have only four hours offreedom and I had with banking
on six hours to keep me sanetoday and to go back to the
Citadel, not only Knowing that Ihave changed as a mature person,
and nobody in there has changedin the way they're going to
treat me, but also to not getthe relief that I was planning

(44:22):
to get today, but, and knowingthat I could get that relief if
somebody had only treated mewith the level of respect that I
ought to have received yearsago, and yet, I have to go back,
like, I don't, to not go backright now is so misaligned with
who I am.
There's no not going back, butit's like, I'm dying a little

(44:44):
bit inside to have to turnaround, but he's going to
literally die if we don't turnaround.
So, that's, that's the picture Isee of ratcheting up these it's
like in this moment of gettingfreedom and having it pulled
away.
Cause where we're starting inthis scene right now is we're
seeing the tail end of thisfreedom, but we're not seeing

(45:05):
what it feels like.
And we're getting told about thefact that she's not receiving
the respect that she deserves.
We're not really seeing whatthat looks like or what she's
railing against.
And I think that the goal reallydid start before The Citadel
came into view.
It was a lot less conscious andthat's another thing that you
can play with is how much ofthis is conscious knowledge for

(45:28):
her at the beginning of thescene when she sets out versus
when the turning point happensand she has to go back like she,
she's stuffing things, you know,she's stuffing it down so she
might not be waking up thinking,I am going to deal with the
injustices around me by gettingsix hours of outdoor time, and

(45:48):
that will be how I process myemotions.
No, she's like, she's going on atrajectory, and these little
barbs are coming at her, andshe's just like, flinging them
off while she's going on thistrajectory, until she can't
fling them off anymore, and nowshe's like, Dang it! I have to
face the fact that I have to goback, which is telling me how
much I don't want to go back.
Like, he is vomiting because ofpoison, and I am thinking about

(46:11):
the prospect of going back, andit's making me physically sick
in a way that it didn'tyesterday.
So, that's the picture that Ihave in my head of what this
scene might be.
How does that sound?

Cathryn (46:23):
I'm starting yeah starting to get my own picture
solidified from your words ofhow I might rewrite this so this
is exciting

Alice (46:33):
Yeah, good.
Okay, good.
Because I think that everything,like, I just want to keep
emphasizing, I think everythingyou're saying about the goal of
this scene, the direction ofthis scene, like, that being
very aligned with the story as awhole, that feels really true
for me.
Like, I agree with that.
It's just a question of can youput that on top of the external

(46:55):
action that will carry that in away that's exciting to the
reader as well.
the next thing I want to showyou Talk about is the resolution
because the resolution currentlyin this scene and I'm looking at
the resolution as that time whenshe learns that Master Bard
Eldrin is here and that, thathe's, he's come, we know, to

(47:17):
negotiate with her father totake her down to the southern
citadel so she can actuallytrain as a bard.
Which is the thing that she'sbeen raring to do this whole
time that should have happenedfor her way earlier, and it's
the reason why she should beable to heal.
Like, we know that that's whatthis is, this resolution is
doing.

(47:38):
It, right now, doesn't feelaligned with that inciting
incident because it's not yetclear that this is the thing
that she's been held back from.
I mean, it is a little bit, butit it doesn't feel like this is
clearly attached to thatoriginal goal of the out versus
in thing.
Cause the original goal, if Ilook at the pages right now,

(47:58):
that original goal feels like gohome to heal Sindar or stay out
and.
Enjoy the sunshine, basicallylike stay away from the Citadel
and it's not attached to Thisbroader, like, leave the Citadel
entirely, like, go home to healSindar versus stay outside

(48:19):
doesn't feel attached to go hometo heal Sindar versus go down to
the Southern Citadel.
You know what I mean?
Like, those are, that's a stepbeyond that we know is connected
but the reader doesn't yet knowis connected.
does that make sense?
It's, it's again, one of thethings that feels clear in my
mind and I'm not sure I'm sayingit clearly out loud.

Cathryn (48:38):
Yeah Yeah That makes sense

Alice (48:40):
Okay, cool.
So I think that the thing to do,I think this is, probably when I
think about that feedback thatyou got from the publisher, this
feels to me like it's importantto get into the scene now,
because this is part of movingthe story quickly along.
I think that what that meansthen is, it means getting clear

(49:05):
on the goal in the incitingincident, So the things that we
want to do are to get reallyclear at the outset that her
goal is To it's it's an outversus in like that part feels
really clear to me.
Go out versus stay in.
I want to come back to the withversus without side of that goal

(49:26):
in a second But i'm going totable that for a moment.
We also want to establish that.
The reason why This is sofrustrating is because Maybe
it's that she honestly shouldn'tbe here, like she shouldn't have
to be this out versus in today,this shouldn't be a thing, she

(49:47):
should be at the SouthernCitadel, and so I think like
bringing that goal mindedness oflike, get to the Southern
Citadel

Cathryn (49:55):
Yeah yeah

Alice (50:00):
then tie in at the end.
Oh, there's hope of actuallygoing.
Does that sound aligned at all?

Cathryn (50:08):
Yeah

Alice (50:09):
Because I think that What is she thinking about?
What is she feeling on themorning when she wakes up the
day after her, coming of ageceremony?

Cathryn (50:25):
think she's she's feeling a sense of newness like
today is different even thoughshe's going out to do the same
kind of thing that she has beendoing she wakes up and she
thinks she does think to herselfI'm a Starial today I'm not
Brynn anymore and I think shebelieves that things are going

(50:50):
to start happening now finallyand then when she thinks that
I'll be able to do things nowthen flips over to the, but I
should have been able to do themages ago so I think it's a
discontent on the one handthere's that new feeling on the

(51:10):
other hand it's like a this feelso new this should feel like
more of a release than it doesSomething like that I'm not sure
if my words are making sense

Alice (51:24):
No, that sounds great.
That's all really good.
so, I think that one of thequestions, it's like an open
ended question here, which wemight lock down really clearly
here, or we might still leaveopen ended, is the inciting

(51:46):
incident.
Like, where does the scenestart?
Does the scene start when shewakes up?
I don't think that it startswhen she wakes up.
Books that start when thecharacter wakes up are, like,
that's

Cathryn (51:59):
No

Alice (52:00):
the number one way to start a story.

Cathryn (52:02):
But it yeah it could it could start when she shoots the
arrow into that spider

Alice (52:10):
Mm hmm.
I hesitate on that one becausethat feels like the turning
point to me.
The spider itself feels like theturning point.
the spider does not set up thegoal of wanting to get away.

Cathryn (52:24):
No true true

Alice (52:26):
So, some things, I'll just toss out some
possibilities.
It could be, I wonder if shegets another denial of going
south.
whether it's directly from herfather or whether it is, like,
she mentions it to Maven andMaven says, Good luck on that.

Cathryn (52:47):
Okay

Alice (52:47):
And, and, and Stario is like, well, dang it.
Or, whether she, if she doesn'tget another denial directly of
going south, then she gets aslight.
That, you know, indicates thatthe day isn't different.
Like, she may feel different,but people aren't treating her

(53:07):
differently.
so my, question here is, whatmakes her want to go out?
What makes her want to leave?
Because, the out, To in theturning point with the spider is
where she's going to have tocome back in and the way that
the piece about Master BardEldrin will feel aligned with

(53:31):
this is if we can attach MasterBard Eldrin's presence to the
hope of getting out again.
Like that's our ticket out.
So if we can set up the goal inthe inciting incident with, I
want to get out, and we can, wehave to kind of shape, like,
what is that goal specifically?
What is that thing that shewants?
I'll come back there in asecond.
But if we set up that, I want toget out in the inciting incident

(53:52):
and we get to the spider and thespider's like, you've been out
as far as you can go.
This is the end of your tether.
Time to go back in.
And it's like, okay, I can'teven get.
I, I established that I cannotget what I really want, which is
to go south.
At least not right now.
Like, it's not, it's nothappening today.
It should have happened ages agoand it's still not happening
today.
but my, my proxy for that isjust going out into the

(54:15):
wilderness with my friends.
And now I can't even have that,I have to go back in.
And then to get that hope ofMaster Bard Eldrin, it's like,
oh, maybe, maybe there is a hopeof out again.
Like, the hope of out is back.
Like, I thought that this hopedied when the spider bit, but
now the hope is back.
So, yes.
You look like you have ideas,Cooking.
Tell me what you're thinking.

Cathryn (54:36):
Oh no I'm just assimilating what you're saying
I'm just putting it together'cause I like that idea of
Bringing that idea of, MasterBud Eldrin Bright at as part of
the.
beginning So that when he'sthere at the end yeah, that
feels amazing.

Alice (54:52):
Yeah, yeah, because, that piece feels to me like the piece
where, start the story quickly,that's the start the story
quickly bit, because Master atRaard Eldren being here is the
thing that's going to kick usoff to going south, which is
where the story really kicksoff, so the faster that we can
get into that, that is the movethe story forward quickly kind

(55:12):
of piece of this, and Idefinitely don't want to be
putting in a scene here thatdelays that, where we like,
Shove that off down the waywe're like, let's see what
happens before and let's seewhat happens before that and
before that and suddenly MasterBard Elgin doesn't come in for
three chapters like that's notwhat we're trying to do, but I
think that, Figuring out, yeah,getting him tied into the

(55:32):
beginning of the scene in someway, whether it's directly
naming him or just establishingthat, like, higher level goal
of, of leaving and going southwith, Where Master Bird Eldren
has been calling her fordecades.
Like, that is what the true goalis.
So, I've said like six times,I'm going to come back to the

(55:54):
goal, the, the, to do thiswithout this.
tell me what your thoughts areon that, specificity around the
goal right now.
What does Astariel want and whatdoes she not want in order to
get that thing?

Cathryn (56:08):
Ooh okay She to, to blossom into the person that she
knows that she can be with allher abilities developed.
and my first thought is withouthaving to her father about it,
but I'm not, I'm not sure thatthat's quite it yet, but there's

(56:31):
something of that energy there

Alice (56:33):
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Because that, I think, is, Ithink, that At this point, is
like the, like, start from thispage, that's like Astariel's
book long goal, that goal willevolve over the course of the
book, but if Astariel could nameright now, page 1, the goal that
she's basically like set forherself, for the next 300 pages,

(56:56):
that I think would be what Itis.
She wants to blossom andflourish as herself without
incurring her father's wrathabout it.
Like, she wants her father back,but also she wants to be fully
herself.
And so I think, like, yes,starting there, excellent,
because that's at its corewhat's happening here.
and that gives me just, like, Somany ideas for the meaning of

(57:16):
these progressive complications,like if we think of progressive
complications as she is in theforest and they have a
successful kill or something,and then she, and that's
exciting, it feels like beingherself, and then they're in the
forest and this threat of aspider comes up and it's like,
oh, oh no, can I, do I have whatit takes, like, I might fail

(57:39):
myself if I handle this, In away that doesn't feel like me
being my highest self.
I might feel like, like, go homeand Maven killed that.
And wow, I'm a coward.
I really thought I had more inme than that.
So she chases after the spiderand she kills it.
And that's like, yay, bigsuccess.
I knew it.
I knew I had what it takes.

(58:01):
And then the spider has bittenher friend.
And that's like, That'shorrible, like I couldn't get to
it in time to, to rescue himfrom that, but it's okay because
I have these skills and I know Ican use them, and she's trying
to use her magic, and for it tonot work when she should have

(58:21):
the capacity to do it, like Thatfeels like gutting on top of all
of the rest of this, like Icould imagine a version of this
where it's like she's got thishope all day of I want to be
everything I know I can be, andat every obstacle, people keep
putting these obstacles infront, first off, people just
are like putting roadblocks infront of me, and I'm like dude.

(58:42):
Just let me walk down the road,I have the right of way, and
you're just putting up thesebarriers in front of me.
And then it's these obstaclesthat are legitimately
challenging obstacles, but I, Itriumphed over them.
But I didn't quite triumph overthem, and here's an obstacle
that I should be able to triumphover.
And I'm failing, and it justfeels like I can't, because all
of these roadblocks have stoppedme all the way.
I could see that being like apoint where

Cathryn (59:03):
role That is the

Alice (59:03):
That doesn't have to do this, but I can see a version of
this where that is so intensethat Astariel just like breaks
down and cries over the factthat her, her healing magic
couldn't heal him fully.
So to pull that kind ofintensity, I'm not, I'm not
saying like make her cry at theturning point.
That's not the solution here,but to pull that kind of
intensity into these actions, I,what I want to do is take that,

(59:27):
that high level kind ofintensity.
Interior world goal around Iwant to be

Cathryn (59:34):
I

Alice (59:39):
in this world without angering my father because then
you go back into that momentwhere she is, Potentially crying
over the fact that her magicdidn't have the full success she
wanted it to and just thinkinglike my father told me not to go
out here.
My father told me I couldn't dothis thing.
My father denied me theopportunity to develop my magic.

(01:00:01):
If I stay out here any longerand I try to force this, my
father's going to be reallyangry with me.
If my father finds out that Itried to kill this spider, he's
going to be really angry withme.
Like I'm kind of at this pointof no matter, I think that's
part of it too, is like theturning point.
forces the protagonist torealize they can't accomplish
their goal without the without.

(01:00:21):
So there's kind of like, if youcan get it to the point where
there's no way forward that'snot going to leave her father
angry with her, if that's thewithout side of this goal, that
could be really powerful.
But okay, so I'm going down thatinternal goal path, but I want
to now talk about The externalgoal path, because I think

(01:00:46):
looking at these in tandem willbe helpful, and they'll kind of
feed into each other.
We have an internal goal that'slike a, a book scope goal for
Estariel.
But On the day after her comingof age ceremony, when she wakes
up, she's going to go dospecific things.
And she's doing those specificthings to achieve a specific end

(01:01:08):
and that specific end is notlike she's not thinking of that
as to be my realist fullestself.
She's thinking of that as like,this is the thing that's going
to get me what I want right now.
You know, like that's a verylike literal thing that she's
doing.
So what is the, what does sheliterally want?
In the inciting incident.

(01:01:29):
And part of this is unclearbecause we haven't picked that
specific moment of incitingincident.
So we're kind of working thesein tandem.
Like what she wants in theinciting incident is a little
different if the incitingincident is while she's still at
home versus the incitingincident is while she's out in
the field.
But I think if we can playaround with what feels like the
right goal here, we can kind ofwork backwards to the inciting
incident.

Cathryn (01:01:48):
yeah okay externally she wants the word's to do
something productive or usefulkeep on keep on coming But
that's still more internal meanif it if like right at basics
wants to shoot some pheasantsright down and it's just like
very basic level she wants to doit well she wants to get a like

(01:02:13):
a quick painless kill likethrough the eye She wants to do
it perfectly that's what shesets out to do that morning you
know at a very at a very basiclevel

Alice (01:02:26):
Yeah.
Now I think that's great.
I want to tie that to the, theout and in piece of this.
Like, why, why shootingpheasants?
Why, I guess, okay, let me thinkabout this.
So, okay.
I've got it.
I think I've got it, Cathryn.
I think it clicked.

(01:02:46):
Or at least the next stepclicked.
So, I think the, Externalexternal, the go out and shoot
some pheasants, I think that'sgood.
I think the high level internal,where it's I want to blossom as
myself, that's also fantastic.
I think the disconnect is themiddle level, where it's I want
to go do something useful, thedisconnect is if it is out

(01:03:09):
versus in, that's one thing.
If it is useful versus notuseful, that's another thing.
So, and either one could be thetrue thing.
So you can tell me which one ofthese feels more aligned.
But with our turning point beingwe have a sick person now who
needs medical attention that astar real cannot provide.

(01:03:31):
So do we go back home or do westay out?
and the ending the resolutionbeing that we did go home.
But when we got home, we got thepromise, the potential promise
of leaving properly, truly theway we were always supposed to
like with those two things we'vegot out and in as our goal here,
and if the goal is useful or notuseful, then, that's a

(01:03:55):
different, that's, that's,that's, it's, It's close, but
it's not the same.
What that would do, like, itcould align, because you could
have it be Astariel's trying toprove herself useful this whole
time.
She gets to this turning pointwhere she can't heal Sindar.
And she is feeling like afailure because she's not
useful.
And then when she gets home,Master Barad Eldrin is like the

(01:04:17):
hope that she can be trained tobe useful.
So there's a possibility whereyou can make it that useful or
not useful dynamic.
The question is, Is it usefulversus not useful, more
compelling or less compellingand aligned than out versus in?

Cathryn (01:04:35):
um yes

Alice (01:04:37):
Is this a scene about leaving versus feeling trapped,
or is it a scene about trying tomeet her full potential and be
useful versus feeling like afailure, like she can't live up
to that potential?

Cathryn (01:04:50):
it's hard to decide mean I mean it is kind of both
like wrapped up together and I'mtrying to I'm trying to tease it
apart as to like which one

Alice (01:05:04):
is

Cathryn (01:05:06):
I'm kind of leaning towards the useful not useful
but that that might be internalbias because out versus in is a
far more external construct thanuseful versus not useful so
yeah, I'm second guessing myself

Alice (01:05:26):
Well, I think that both of them Both of them have
elements that carry throughoutthis entire story.
Like, both of them are going tobe true this entire story.
And the real tension thatAstariel is feeling is that,
Asheron, her father, isrequiring her to be useful by
singing to him by playing forhim in a way where she's like, I

(01:05:47):
am only at like 40 percentcapacity here because you won't
train me.
And I can't actually do thething that I'm here to do
without being trained.
So you're trying to make meuseful.
And I want to be useful.
Like I don't want to keep.
Feeling like I'm a bottle ofuntapped potential and yet you
won't let me be what you'retrying to just use me right now

(01:06:11):
when I'm not actually ready tobe used here like that's not and
and yes, like, am I ready to beused?
That's also like somethingshe'll have to unpack later on
in the story too.
But that sense of there's that,and there's also that piece of I
need to go, I need to go andhave the space to develop and
become myself.
And if I stay, I can't do that,and you're holding me back and

(01:06:34):
requiring me to, like, you'retelling me that the only full
self I can be is whatever I canmanage to be right here, like,
and I can feel that that'swrong, like I can feel that
there's more.
So both of these are going to betrue.
All the way through the story,and I think there's a way to
layer them here in this scene aswell.

(01:06:56):
I think trying to walk into thisscene with thinking in your
mind, I am going to put both outand in, and useful and not
useful, into the scene all theway through.
I think what that's going to dois going to sink you in a Pit of
feeling like you've just got youlike all you can do is write a
bunch of interiority becausethere's like She's in a mire,

(01:07:20):
and she is in a mire, butespecially in this first scene
We want that mire to besomething that's like dogging
her while she's doing greatactions And we're like what's
going to happen next so I thinkthat it's worth picking one to
make the focus of this scenethat's going to be your guide as
you edit the scene and I think,let's throw the, the without

(01:07:43):
side of this in here is thewithout side of this.
Without angering her father oris it something else?
What's the consequence of Notgoing back to Citadel.

Cathryn (01:07:57):
Hmm I If she doesn't go back to the Citadel then the
first thing that comes to mindis that the conditional trust
that she's built up with herfather is going to be severely
damaged and he's gonna make herfeel like a child again probably

(01:08:23):
in a really humiliating way asfar as, the external realm, if
they don't go back to theCitadel straight away, is gonna
suffer unnecessarily and, youknow.
It's my world, I can play aroundwith the effects of the, the
venom, but, potentially he couldsustain some kind of permanent
damage or require a protractedrecovery rather than a quick one

(01:08:48):
I can decide that whatever Iwant but will be physical
consequences for him, I do likethe idea of the trust though
cause Astariel has worked herbutt off to get this trust and
could be it out the window umeven though she should just have
it she shouldn't have to workher butt off to get it she's

(01:09:10):
just the kind of person who istrustworthy you know, it's it's,
of character.
And the fact that she's had toearn it and had to toe the line,
and submit to strictures.
that are unreasonable thatreally rankles so I don't know

(01:09:32):
there's there's something,there's of that in there but
don't know that doesn't seemexternal it I'm, I'm I'm I'm

Alice (01:09:40):
all right

Cathryn (01:09:42):
at the internal

Alice (01:09:43):
That's all right.
That's all right.
You're giving us you're givingus the threads to pull So some
things that stuck out to meabout that first off are The
idea of not being treated like achild Because I think that for
her to not be able to healSindar could feel very much like

(01:10:06):
she is at child level in herskills.
So she feels like a child, even,like it's that, it's that
tension of child versus notchild, that is also underlying
this scene.
Where she woke up today feelinglike a mature woman, a mature
elf who's an adult ready to goout into the world.
And It's like everybody, to thedegree that they are even

(01:10:31):
respecting that, are only payinglip service to it.
And she knows that her fatherprobably doesn't.
And she's like going out here toprove herself, to be useful, to
be in a space where she can beeverything that she is.
And, like, to hit the spiderpoint

Cathryn (01:10:49):
Yep Coming up short

Alice (01:10:53):
When I stretch the farthest, I still end up back in
child space.
Like, like, my father doesn'teven have to be here to shame me
in order for me to hear hisvoice telling me, Astariel, I
told you, you couldn't do that.
You needed to stay home.
Like, this is why I didn't wantyou to go out on these hunting
trips.
Like, her father doesn't evenneed to be present for that to

(01:11:15):
run in her mind.
what's also really interestingto me here Is the idea of the
stakes of this scene mirroringthe stakes of the climax of the
story, like the, where the storyis going.
so I'm just gonna throw that oneout there, because we are

(01:11:36):
working with this opening scene.
So as we're playing around withall of these layers, and we've
got multiple layers here, I'mreally interested in that idea
of whichever one you choose.
to be top tier, being somethingthat kind of mirrors things that
are coming down the line.
I think that determining theinciting incidence is going to

(01:11:58):
help with this.
That we're playing around withinciting incident versus goal.
And, Determining the incitingincident is also going to help
feed into that goal, just as thegoal is feeding into the
inciting incident.
So, that is the place where,okay, let me play a few options
just to give you some structuresto go play with.

(01:12:24):
option one inciting incidentcould be the thing that kicks
her off to set out on thishunting trip, where she's like,
Cool, I think I'm not going tohang around the Citadel today.
I think I'm going to dosomething useful.
I think I'm going to go outthere.
I'm going to be with my people.
I'm going to, like, not be in aspace where people are going to
treat me like a child.

(01:12:45):
And then she's going to go offand she's going to shoot some
excellent pheasant.
And then it'll escalate and weget to the turning point.
And, then That's where it allcomes crashing down, and she's,
like, has to go back in.
What sucks about going back inis she's going to go back to
being treated like a child, butshe's currently, like, child
shaming herself here.

(01:13:05):
She's currently not feelinguseful.
She's currently feeling like shefailed.
And, she goes back home with,like, the potential of this day
is just evaporated.
It was supposed to be a day withso much potential.
It was a day when she felt likethings are going to be different
and they're not.
And the Masterbird, Eldrin isthere.
It's like, oh.

Cathryn (01:13:26):
Silence Silence

Alice (01:13:30):
inciting incident 2.
maybe another option for theinciting incident is something
that happens on the huntingtrip.
Like she's already on thehunting trip.
And, the thing about being onthe hunting trip.
I think this is where I'mgetting tripped up with starting
it there is that that doesn'tgive you context to illustrate

(01:13:52):
why she doesn't want to be homebecause all the people who are
on the hunting trip are peoplewho do treat her the way she
wants to be treated.
And when they slip up, it's justa name thing and it's not
actually respect thing or anexpectations of her abilities
thing.
so there's.
There's not space to establishthe why she doesn't want to be

(01:14:14):
home and why she feels like achild, like she's being treated
like a child at home and why shedoesn't feel useful at home.
There's not space to establishthat.
So it all then has to come outin, exposition, like narration,
whether it's internal monologueor dialogue, like it just has to
be told instead of being seen.
And so if you can get a contextat the beginning, where she's

(01:14:35):
feeling the reason why she needsto be out on this hunting trip.
And then you get her on thathunting trip and that spider
requires her to come back.
Whether it is the reason isbecause she's being treated like
a child and she's gonna go outand prove to herself that she's
very adult.
Or, and then she tries her magicand the magic doesn't work

(01:14:56):
because she's still got childlevel magic and she has to come
back and she's feeling reallybad about it.
Or whether the reason is thatshe, is, like, just super
frustrated with how things aregoing here at the Citadel and
how she's not being treated theway that she wanted to be
treated.
And so she's going to go out anddo something useful because
nobody is like expectinganything useful of her and then

(01:15:18):
she gets out there andusefulness at its end and again
because like it ends with thespell not working like her
bardic magic not working as wellas she knows that it could it's
not that she can't do anythingit's that she can't Operate at
the highest level that she knowsthat if she had been trained
like she should have been, shewould be able to by now.
And so she's not useful anymore.

(01:15:38):
Here's the ceiling on herusefulness.
She can't do this.
She's got to go back into thespace where everybody, really
particularly meaning her father,is just going to reinforce this
message of her not being useful.
Or whether it is, this feelingof like, I should be at the
point when I'm doing things withmy life, I should be out there,
I should be down south, I shouldbe training, I should be,

Cathryn (01:15:59):
bye

Alice (01:16:00):
and, and, like, that hope that I will get to today, and
then getting denied that, andthen going out because this is
the best out that she can getto, like, this is the best way
that she can go out and at leastnot be trapped in this place
that feels like a prison, eventhough she's just been denied,
like, the true journey, and thencoming back and there's hope of
the journey, so, you know, and,and the spider then, of course,

(01:16:22):
being happy time over, your timeplaying outside is done.
And this was only ever play,like this was never you
actualizing, this was never selfactualization.
When the moment came for selfactualization, you came up
short, go home, like.
Those three things all areperfectly good, like really

(01:16:46):
strong arcs.
You can choose any of them.
I suspect that more than one isgoing to have flavors in here.
So it's not that you're choosingone to the exclusion of the
others, it's that you'rechoosing one to be your guide.
But I keep coming up on, inorder for us to have the
contrast.
About the going back, we need tosee why she needed to go out,

(01:17:06):
and the reason why she needed togo out didn't happen while she
was out there, it happenedbefore she was out there.

Cathryn (01:17:12):
yeah yeah I really like the the energy of that last
scenario you went through Like Iwas I could feel it in my body
of that energy Yeah Like I thinkthat's the energy I want

Alice (01:17:26):
Nice! Fantastic! Good! Then, I think I want to send you
off to play around with this andsee what you come up with for
the inciting incident.
I think we've got enough likeDirection around the goal that I
would just pull one as aplaceholder and not continue
trying to hone it right nowbecause that'll just kind of
feel like a sticking point Butif you can pick an inciting

(01:17:48):
incident to match that goalThat's something that'll kick
off that goal and get her movingand on that trajectory So that
you have the kind of slingshotThrowing her out and then
pulling her back in with thespider and you'll take
everything that's currently inthe scene in terms of the arc of
interior world and I wouldinvite you to play with how much

(01:18:12):
of the things that are currentlyeven in dialogue, how much can
you play with those being thingsthat maybe they don't even need
to go in dialogue because we sawthem happen in the first couple
pages of the scene and we werelike, oh shoot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, shoot.
This poor girl.
Oh, darn.
Yeah, have a nice time outside.
That sounds like a good thing.
Go do that.
Yeah.
Oh, no! You've gotta come home?

(01:18:33):
I'm so sorry.
So, uh, yeah.
How does all that sound?

Cathryn (01:18:38):
yeah yeah that's good Yeah the cogs are starting to
turn I'm quite landed on aninciting incident but I'm
getting a picture of maybe thescene starts like at the armoury
when she's like weapons to takeout for that day and something
happens there that is reallylike Ugh I'm so glad I'm getting

(01:19:01):
out of this place that might bewhere it starts.
But I have still think about alittle bit more

Alice (01:19:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I, I like that idea.
I'm just gonna note in that, ifthat is where it starts, in the
armory, where she's already,like, Moving out, then what to
watch for will be that thatinciting incident still
establishes her goal.
So she was just going to go outon a, on a hunt, but now she's
going to go out on a hunt andshe's going to shoot the

(01:19:28):
darndest pheasant perfectly inits eye.
Like, just like prove herself onthis hunt.
It's going to be great.
Like that she's going to go onthat hunt differently with more.
Purpose, because of thisinciting incident, because
that's where her goal is reallybeing established.
So she may already be movingtowards going outside, but she's
going to go out more, you know,like more purposefully, more in

(01:19:49):
defiance, more provingsomething, more doing something
because of that, interactionthat happened.
another idea, just to Spitballthoughts here.
and this might fit in the worldbuilding or it might not.
what if she, like, gets wordthat a visitor is coming this
afternoon and she shall be askedto wear her, who knows, like,

(01:20:11):
child's Linens or something whenthe visitor comes like there's a
some kind of Thing that she'sbeing asked to do that feels a
little bit like people haveforgotten her role here and
she's like no, I don't want todo that I want to go and like do
things that have meaning andpurpose The fun thing about
that, if it fits, is that shewould have, like, that setup of,

(01:20:33):
oh, at the end, actually, it'sMaster Bird Eldren, and it was
totally a slip of the tonguethat this, who knows, like,
random person tried to prepareyour child's clothes, because
they just forgot, because it'sonly been a day, like, they had
these already, and, and whatnot,and it's not, like, a direct
insult to you, But like, thereward at the end, even like,
regardless of how thatinteraction goes, the reward at

(01:20:53):
the end being like, Oh, thisthing that we sent it at the
beginning, that's actuallyMaster Rod Eldrin coming.
That's not like a child thing.
That is like an us elevating youkind of thing.
That's your ticket out of here.
So, like, it could be thatthere's something fuels her to
want to go on that hunt.
What we're looking for is thething that fuels her to want to
go on the hunt.
The question is just around,like, Logistically, when does

(01:21:16):
that happen?
Is she already about to go andnow she wants to go more?
Is there something else that'shappening?
And then she's like, nah, changeof plans.
We're going back to what wenormally do, which is go on a
hunt.
Like, that's the kind of spaceto play with.
It's

Cathryn (01:21:29):
Okay Okay I have to think I have to think

Alice (01:21:35):
how does this feel for you to go and continue exploring
this and write your next versionof it

Cathryn (01:21:41):
I have a ton more clarity around what this scene
needs to accomplish and so eventhough I don't necessarily have
clarity about the content of itI have a lot more around what it
does what it needs to achieveand how it can feel end to end

(01:22:02):
consistent which is I think thething that I couldn't define at
the beginning that I was leastconfident this scene how the
beginning matched ending Like Ikind had to get to that point
because opening scenes are thinkthey're one of the hardest

(01:22:22):
scenes to They to so much.
and unlike the later scenes thenovel, where you've got the
context you have any context forthis first scene to rely on that
the reader already knows thisstuff so I I've a of, a lot more
clarity around that and how toconnect where I needed to get to

(01:22:47):
at the end with what happens atthe beginning to really get that
reader sympathy activated the tobe just as excited about this
resolution as Astarial isbecause of what it?
means to her and yeah, I thinkyou're right that it's not quite

(01:23:08):
in there at the moment andthat's the piece that I was
missing So that's awesome

Alice (01:23:15):
Yeah, no, that all makes total sense to me.
I think that, and I just want toecho where we started the
beginning, the arc that youbuilt for this scene internally.
Like you have pivoted this scenefrom its previous iteration into
an internal arc that feels veryaligned with the story as a

(01:23:36):
whole and is kicking off thebook.
And we honestly didn't changethat internal arc, all we did
was take that internal arc andsay okay, can we do that and
stretch it out over more action,more external action, because
we've got characters sitting onhorses looking at the citadel,
but could we pull those same

Cathryn (01:23:54):
Silence

Alice (01:23:56):
put them on top The exciting life or death action
that came before that's reallythe whole task here is take the
internal arc that you've alreadygotten really strong and pull it
across some external action thatwill hook the reader just as
strongly because the readeropening scenes are so hard.
Because they do have to do somuch, but if I can like just

(01:24:18):
drop some little pointers that Ithink about when I look at
opening scenes, particularly.
The reader's a lot moreinterested in what's literally
happening now.
Like, we're really grabbed andhooked by active movement now.
We're a lot less interested inwhat kind of context came

(01:24:42):
before.
We kind of have to earn thereader's interest in that.
And we earn the reader'sinterest in that by making the
literal things that arehappening right now so engaging
that they create curiosity.
So then we're like, Well, okay,so she's angry.
Why is she angry?
This doesn't seem like a thingthat would normally make someone

(01:25:04):
angry.
Okay, well, she got more angry.
Now I really want to know whatmade her angry before this,
because, like, this is just so,she's doing so many interesting
things with that anger.
Not only is she angry, she's,like, going and yelling at this
person, and she's, like, doingthis other thing.
Like, those things are reallyinteresting and exciting, And so
we're following like thoseinteresting and exciting things

(01:25:25):
and earning the curiosity ofwhat came before this, what's
the context around this, what'sthe world building that, that
creates this kind of asituation.
So, all that to say, I encourageyou to play with the external
piece of this, play around withit, look for all of the
exciting, hooky things thatEstariel can do and say and
experience here, and then,

Cathryn (01:25:47):
um, Um

Alice (01:25:48):
kind of like,

Cathryn (01:25:49):
Um

Alice (01:25:50):
to some degree, Let the chips of exposition fall as they
may.
we do want the internal, we wantto feel what she's feeling as
she's feeling it.
So we do want to feel thatdrive.
But what it might be, is thatshe is given kind of like a
childlike slight early on in thescene, and she gets really angry

(01:26:13):
about that, and we're like, whyis she so angry about getting
that kind of, like, they justsaid something kind of offhand
that seems a little bit likeChildish, but it doesn't seem
like outside of the norm Why isit frustrating her today and
then kind of learning as we go?
Oh, oh, This is her like firstday of real adulthood.

(01:26:34):
Like that's galling.
Of course I don't know what thespecifics are going to be in
terms of what exposition goeswhere at this stage play around
with the scene and see Whatactions do are really
interesting, but your goal rightnow, if I give you one goal from
this, is just to look for thoseinteresting external actions
that can carry all of thisinternal stuff, so that Istariel

(01:26:55):
has a lot of interesting stuffto do in the scene, Through
which we feel she wants to getout of here and she's being
sucked back in and this is allthe worst

Cathryn (01:27:04):
yes yes Actually I had when you were talking about
characters being angry and whyis she angry and all that I just
had that idea of like what ifshe starts this scene angry
cause she's like it starts quitecalm at present and what would
be the change if she startsangry and she's kind of snapping

(01:27:24):
at people a little bit ratherthan being her normal calm self
Yeah, that might help It justmight help me like think of the
actions could be happening

Alice (01:27:36):
yeah absolutely Absolutely.
I also think And maybe this willbe helpful at this stage or
maybe it's something to tablefor the next version of this
scene But I think at this pointit can be fun to play with a
really hooky opening line sowhen I when I was reading this
scene the opening line of thecurrent version is reined her

(01:28:00):
horse as the northern citadelcame into view, which is telling
us what's going on, but it's nothooky.
And if you were to look at thisopening paragraph, this opening,
like three first kind ofparagraphs here, there's all
this description of the gorgeouscitadel.
And then.
And yet a prison, one that shemust voluntarily enter.

(01:28:21):
There's a version of this whereI'm going to do a really ham
fisted kind of description of ithere.
But a version of this thatstarts off with like, Estariol
reined in her horse beforeentering this prison, which she
didn't want to go back into, butshe had no option.
That's not like beautifulliterary anything, but you see
like it's creating that initiallike, what's going on?
This is intense.

(01:28:42):
You've got stakes in this firstsentence.
It's curiosity.
That's the energy that we'relooking for throughout this
scene, the curiosity inducing,interesting stakes, what's going
on, fascinating action that wewant to know what happens next,
and that spider, like, for herto go fight a spider and then be
using her bardic magic, all ofthat stuff is such good context,
so

Cathryn (01:29:02):
yes yes

Alice (01:29:03):
pieces to pick up.

Cathryn (01:29:05):
I think I got this really good idea of I'm coming
back to that armory bit like andshe's like just really
aggressively getting her geartogether because her father just
said something to her on the wayout of her bedroom and like and
she's just peeved I can imaginethat being a very emotional

(01:29:25):
opening

Alice (01:29:26):
Yeah,

Cathryn (01:29:28):
play with that

Alice (01:29:29):
yeah, I love that, I love bringing in The specter of her
father, even if he's not on thepage at the very, on the first
page, like, bringing some ofthat, like, father daughter
dynamic in, I think that'sfantastic.
I think starting her off in thatangry space as opposed to kind
of a calm, neutral space,fantastic.
Yes.
Yes to all of this.

(01:29:50):
Yes.
great.
So I'm going to send you off towrite then.
I'm going to, uh, cheer you onas you go develop the next
version of the scene.
I'll be really excited to see.
What that'll look like.
before we leave I have onequestion that I want to ask
That's going to be like mystandard question for guests to

(01:30:12):
come on to this podcast I'mreally curious final thoughts
before we go.
What do you love?
About editing and the editingprocess.

Cathryn (01:30:22):
I love the feeling of cracking something cracking a
problem just feeling that deepthat's it feeling in my body And
yeah reading just knowing thatI've been able to amplify my own
I have my own limited abilitieslike you have your abilities and

(01:30:47):
together creating something thatis more than the sum of both of
us That just feels amazing andthat's probably the thing I love
most about uh editing

Alice (01:31:00):
I love that so much.
Did you get that feeling todayhere in this conversation?
Okay, good! Good! Amazing!Great! I feel like sometimes
these conversations, at least onmy end, they, they can run long
because I'm sitting here going,I can see the place where it's
going to crack, and I can almostget there, but I just am, I know

(01:31:21):
we're not quite there tocracking it.
It's going to take anotherlittle bit of exploration or
drafting to, to fully crack itopen.
But I'm so glad, so glad thatyou felt that today.
Cause that's just, it's just thebest.
It's just

Cathryn (01:31:34):
Yes

Alice (01:31:36):
well, thank you so much, Cathryn, for sharing your scene
with us.
Thank you for joining me on thepodcast.
Thank you for being my firstguest of 2025.
and, thank you for sharing yourwriting with us and being bold
to do this in public.

Cathryn (01:31:52):
I feel so privileged and it was an absolute delight.
Thank you.
And there you have it Cathrynscene and the ideas we had
together to make it evenstronger.
I hope that as you listened, youheard some ideas that will
inspire edits.
You can use in your own scenes.
I'd love to know what you'retaking away from our
conversation.
Truly.
I'm so curious what you'repulling from this.

(01:32:14):
And I want to highlight fourtakeaways that I see here.
First Cathryn wanted to createintense feelings for her readers
to hook them in the openingscene.
But in the current draft,Astariel's feelings are pretty
subtle and quiet and muted.
The breakthrough we had right atthe end of the call was that
Astariel needs to start thescene off angry.

(01:32:35):
We need to kick her off withsome big energy, and that will
catalyze the drama of the scene.
In fact, after we finishedrecording.
I asked Cathryn what gave herthat, uh, how we cracked it
feeling.
and this was it.
The idea of starting Astarieloff, not in a neutral emotional
space, but angry.
Something I want you to takefrom that is that if you want to

(01:32:56):
create intense feelings in yourreaders, making your characters
feel emotionally neutral, oreven just.
Mildly negative or mildlypositive.
Isn't going to do it.
And one key way to createintense feelings in your
readers.
It's to create intense feelingsin your characters.
Especially in the opening scenewhere we don't have any other
context of plot or setting orstakes to create that intensity

(01:33:20):
outside of them.
My second takeaway is, did youhear how the idea to make
Astariel angry?
Didn't come up until the last,like five minutes of our
conversation.
It's wild.
That's such an impactful change,ripe with so much possibility.
And I just happened to stumbleacross it.
And the example I wasspitballing and Cathryn caught

(01:33:41):
it.
And we'd been talking for nearlytwo hours.
By the time we got there, Itrimmed our conversation down a
good bit for the podcast, mostlycutting the dead air of us,
thinking, which there was a lotof dead air Of us just staring
off into space and thinking.
You.
Didn't need to hear that.
The reality of editing is it cantake a while to find the great

(01:34:01):
ideas.
I find that the magic happens.
When you give yourself space andtime and permission to explore a
lot of possibilities that may ormay not work because it's in
that roaming exploration thatyou'll find the ones that are
just right.
My third takeaway is a strategyto figure out the external

(01:34:22):
action of a scene.
If you're feeling stuck in theinternal and you're not sure
what the characters shouldliterally be doing.
Go back to the beginning.
In this case, Astariel wakes upon the day after her coming of
age ceremony.
And just ask.
What does she do?
And then what.
And what comes next.
And then what.

(01:34:43):
Use those questions to get theshape of the external actions in
the scene.
And then play with.
Are those the most interestingthings that could happen.
How are they relevant to thestory at large?
Is there something more excitingor impactful that could happen?
This is actually somethingCathryn and I didn't do in this
scene because as you heard,Cathryn strength is in the

(01:35:05):
internal.
And honestly, mine is too.
So we both kind of fell back onour strengths.
And I think that meant that ittook us a little longer for us
to find the external.
So if you're swimming in theinternal or maybe drowning in
the internal, or you don'treally have clarity about the
scene at all, go back to thebeginning and ask simple
external questions.

(01:35:25):
What does your character do?
And then what happens?
And then what happens?
It sounds super simple, butthat's the beauty of it.
It'll reconnect you to thecreative imagining of what's
literally happening in thescene.
And finally my fourth takeawayis that characters have
complicated in our worlds.

(01:35:47):
If you already have ideas forthe internal side of the scene,
like the really strong internalarc that Cathryn had built
before we began.
And you try to study theinternal more closely to get
ideas for the external.
You will find more ideas for theinternal and that might have the
unintended side effects ofmaking it feel more confusing to

(01:36:07):
find the external actions.
We found a lot of internallayers to Cathryn scene, and it
took us a while to find ourfooting in the external.
But while it complicated things,it's also an asset characters
inner worlds are layered.
They have a lot going oninternally, just like people do.
And one of the strengths that wefind in great stories.

(01:36:29):
Is that they help us explore andexperience that many layered
nuance.
Astariel, isn't just wanting togo out and being pulled back in.
She's also wanting to fulfillher full potential and feeling
smushed.
And she's feeling like a grownadult while also feeling pulled
back into childhood.
When characters feel just onesingle thing without nuance or

(01:36:51):
complexity.
They feel to the reader flat andsimple and unrealistic.
When they feel multiple thingsat the same time, especially
when those things are inconflict with each other, they
feel rich and real.
cause I bet you are feelingmultiple things at the same time
right now.
That's life.
That's the tension of beinghuman.

(01:37:12):
So while exploring all thoselayers of inner complexity.
might not lead you straight toexciting external action.
They are some of the richest,most rewarding parts.
I have truly great stories.
Those are my four takeaways fromthe scene edit.
I would really love to know whatyou're taking away from it too.
If you'd like to share.
Go to dot com slash 76.

(01:37:35):
That's the same place where yougot to read the scene.
And leave a comment about whatyou found most interesting or
helpful in our conversation.
That's I was said.
though.com/ 76.
And that link is in the shownotes as well.
And if you read the scene, youalready know how to find it.
And that's everything that Ihave for you today.
I hope you enjoy getting to be afly on the wall for an actual

(01:37:55):
seen workshop with one of myclients.
I have several more episodeslike this plan for the rest of
the year.
So if you enjoyed it, good news.
There's more to come.
Until next time.
Happy editing.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Scene Workshop: Hook Your Readers in Chapter One with Cathryn deVries

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

All Episodes

Scene Workshop: Hook Your Readers in Chapter One with Cathryn deVries

Dateline NBC