May 13, 2025 • 50 mins
“It really broke my heart, actually. . . . For the rest of my life, it will break my heart.” A.S. King gets honest about what happened when the publishing industry failed her book.
What happens after you edit your book?
What happens after you’ve bared the story of your heart, crafted it into an excellent novel, and presented it to the world?
What happens when you get traditionally published, when you receive awards and accolades, and when it looks like you’ve won the author career lottery?
Last month, I brought author A.S. King on the podcast to share how she revises award-winning novels—complex, intense, surrealist, mind-bending stories meant to challenge her readers to think.
But that wasn’t the end of the conversation. In fact, it wasn’t even the start.
The conversation began months earlier, when I heard the story of her book launch for her latest novel.
I won’t spoil the ending here, but I will say: it did not go how she expected.
So today, I’m bringing Amy back on the podcast to tell us her publishing story and give us a glimpse of what comes after all the writing and all the revising.
You’ll hear:
- What really happened during A.S. King’s latest book launch
- How a publisher’s big promises fell through—and what that meant for the book
- Why even revising an excellent novel doesn’t guarantee industry support
- What it feels like when the book of your heart gets treated like just another product
- How gender, genre, and power shape what gets promoted (and what doesn’t)
- What it takes to keep going when publishing knocks you off course
- And more
It’s a peek into traditional publishing—and a reality check on what the industry feels like from the inside, even for an award-winning author in her prime.
And above all, it’s a reminder of what really matters when it comes to measuring your book’s success.
Links Mentioned in the Episode:
- Share your thoughts about this conversation in the comments here
- Order a signed copy of Pick the Lock from Aaron’s Books
- Hear more about A.S. King’s book launch in this conversation on the #AmWriting podcast
- Hear how A.S. King revised Pick the Lock in this conversation on Your Next Draft
Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts
"I love Alice and Your Next Draft." If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps me support more writers through the mess—and joy—of the editing process. Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap the stars to rate, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let me know what you loved most about the episode!
Loving the show? Show your support with a monthly contribution »
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What happens after you edit yourbook?
(00:03):
What happens after you've bearedthe story of your heart, crafted
it into an excellent novel andpresented it to the world?
What happens when you gettraditionally published, when
you receive awards andaccolades, and when it looks
like you've won the AuthorCareer Lottery?
last month.
I brought author as S King onthe podcast to share how she
(00:24):
revises award.
Award-winning novels, complex,intense, surrealist mind bending
stories meant to challenge herreaders to think.
But that wasn't the end of theconversation.
In fact, it wasn't even thestart.
That conversation began monthsearlier when I heard the story
of her book launch for herlatest novel.
(00:45):
I won't spoil the ending here,but I will say the launch did
not go how she expected, so.
In today's episode, I'm bringingAmy back on the podcast to tell
us her publishing story and togive us a glimpse of what comes
after.
After the writing, the revising,the revising, the revising, and
(01:06):
the revising.
It's a peek into traditionalpublishing, a reality check
about how navigating theindustry feels to an author in
the prime of her career, and areminder of what really matters
when it comes to measuring yourbook's success Welcome to your
(02:10):
next draft.
This episode is a bit of adeparture from the typical
conversations that I share onthis podcast.
I love editing, and so thispodcast is all about revision,
not writing, not publishing, notmarketing, but revising
excellent novels.
But in today's episode, we'regoing beyond revision to talk
(02:33):
about publishing.
I'm sharing the second part ofmy conversation with Author as S
King, where we talked about herexperience during the
publication and launch of herlatest novel.
Pick the Lock.
can I be honest?
As an independent editor andbook coach, as an avid reader,
as a person who cares deeplyabout excellent books and
creative support for the authorswho write them, I found Amy's
(02:56):
experience harrowing.
She's the multi award-winningauthor of 15 outstanding novels
for middle graders, teens andadults.
She's in the prime of hercareer.
She's traditionally publishedand she's gathered a team of an
agent editor and publishinghouse to support her in her
career and launch her books intothe world.
But when Pick the Lock wasreleased in September of 2024,
(03:18):
her launch did not go at allaccording to plan.
I heard her speak about thatexperience on the Am Writing
podcast with Jenny Nash back inthe fall, and I knew then that
it was a conversation I reallywanted to bring to your next
draft.
But again, this is a podcastabout editing, not publishing,
so I had to really ask myselfwhy.
(03:40):
This is an importantconversation.
That part was never in question,but why is it important for me
to share Amy's story of runningthe gauntlet of publishing here?
Here's where I landed and what Ireally don't want you to miss.
Many of the writers that I workwith, and many of the writers
listening to this podcast areaiming for traditional
publishing.
(04:00):
You want to get picked up by anagent, sign a deal with a
publisher, see the publisher'scallon on the spine of your
book, and find your name on theshelves of Barnes and Noble.
And because that's your goal, itis easy to measure the success
of your revision process bywhether that happens to say that
you'll know whether yourrevision worked or not, whether
it was good enough or not,whether it's done or not, by
(04:21):
whether you sign with an agentand get a publishing deal or
not.
And yes, there's a kernel oftruth there.
Publishing is a competitivefield.
Agents and publishers arelooking for well-told stories
and well-refined manuscripts.
And a lot of the times whenagents reject queries, it's
because the books they'rerejecting aren't yet ready for
prime time, but.
(04:44):
If you treat the industry'ssupport and approval of you and
your book as the measure of yoursuccess, you are setting
yourself up for disappointmentand even harm.
Amy's going to talk about thatmore in our conversation, so I
won't steal her thunder, but Iwant you to go into this knowing
that one reason why I think thismatters and why it's relevant to
(05:06):
revision, even though we won'ttalk about revision hardly at
all.
Because landing the agent,landing the publishing deal,
getting the book launch, that isnot the only measure of your
success in revising your novel.
It's not even the most importantmeasure of your revision
success.
It's a really big deal for sure,but it involves so many other
(05:27):
factors outside of your own workrevising your novel, and if
things in your publishingjourney don't go how you
planned.
I want you to know with absolutecertainty and unshakeable
confidence that you have createdthe book you want to create.
You have told the story youwanted to tell, and you have
told that story to the very bestof your ability.
(05:51):
One more thing I want tomention.
Amy and I had a long ramblingconversation for over two hours.
I shared the other part of thatconversation where we talked
about revision in episode 82 ofyour next draft.
You don't have to listen to thatepisode in order to understand
this one, but we do occasionallyreference it.
So if it sounds like we'recalling back to things that you
haven't heard us talk abouthere, you can find the rest of
(06:13):
that conversation in episode 82,which I've linked in the show
notes.
Alright, that's enough preamble.
I won't keep you any longer.
Let's hear from Amy.
Alice (06:23):
writers have an idea of what it looks like to be
traditionally published and theidea is very rosy.
tell us the story of what itlooked like to go from pick the
lock, the manuscript that youshipped off to your agent and
editor to pick the lock, theversion that is now on the
shelves, waiting for readers tobuy it.
Amy (06:45):
Okay.
Um, first of all, your mileagemay vary regardless, right?
So you have, I have friends whohave the top publicists, they
have the top marketing, theyhave the, just because their
book was picked to be the leadtitle, um.
And that doesn't necessarilymean it's not, that doesn't have
(07:06):
to be what is the best mean?
Like, I don't even know what thebest means, right?
Like, it doesn't like it, itdoesn't matter.
Like your book could be the bestbook and it may never, like, it
may be the, the lowest on theirradar when it comes to publicity
and things like that.
It's also important to know thatthe publishing business is
really hard to work in.
(07:27):
Everyone who's working in thepublishing, but, and I can't say
everyone.
I'm sure the higher ups and theCEOs are paid.
Well, I really don't know.
What I do know is that thepeople you're going to be
working with in a publishinghouse work their asses off and
they don't get paid enough, justlike everybody else in the world
working their asses off.
They don't, and worse yet, therehave been layoffs, there have
(07:50):
been issues depending on thepublishers, whatever.
So, and, and there have beenchanges in the world, right?
We now have social media.
When I started this, when Istarted publishing, Kindle
wasn't a thing.
Think about that for a sec.
So the first, and this isinteresting'cause now most of
my, most of my contracts are oldenough that, so quick nerdy
(08:10):
stuff.
So when you publish a paperback,right?
When you get to the paperback,right?
Of a, of a book.
Let's say you have a hardcoverthan a paperback, whatever it,
the, the old days, okay?
Before computers and theinternet, which really wasn't
that long.
Um, a warehouse has to holdyour, your stock.
They have to hold your books.
So they print, let's say they doa print run of a.
(08:32):
They have 10,000 books and they,they release those, they send
them out.
Some of those get returned.
That gets deleted from your, youknow, your, your, your sales or
whatever.
We're not getting into that.
Um, but now we have demand.
Well, here's the thing.
My old contracts never had printon demand in them.
So technically, if you'reprinting on demand, I get to get
(08:54):
my rights back because you'renot printing X amount that stays
in the, that stay in thewarehouse, you know, that kind
of stuff.
So there's all kinds of funkystuff.
The point is though, I don'teven know where I, why I went on
that tangent.
The, the point is that, um,everybody's overworked and
underpaid.
Uh, you just start there.
Everyone is working on x numberof books, every catalog, and go
(09:15):
and look at the catalog, look atyour publisher's catalog and
have a look at the fact thatthat publicity department at, in
that season has four bookscoming out every Tuesday.
If you don't hit the window ofwhatever your max velocity is in
that first week, you know, ifyou're, if you're looking for
(09:37):
them to advertise you on their,on their Instagram page
constantly, don't do that.
Don't do that.
They will, if you're the leadtitle, but you might not be the
lead title next time.
Things are very, they move fastin this business.
You never know when you're goingto be that book, and you may
never be that book.
(09:59):
That's why you gotta aim forpersonal goals, not goals that
are outside of you.
Because what is that book?
You know, I have, somebody saidto me recently, I've been trying
to win an award for years.
I'm like, oh my God, how do youdo that?
I don't know how to try to winan award.
That's a really weird thing todo, right?
Like i's like, I can see that asa track runner.
I know how to, okay, justpractice until you get to be the
(10:20):
fastest person on the track.
Then you can win an award.
That's cool.
I don't know how to do that inthis business.
There's, there's no way I, Iwould, I could tell you how to
do that.
But anyway, my editor'sfantastic.
An editor.
What an editor's job is afterthey edit and after they work
with you on the stuff that we'vealready talked about, an
editor's job after that is tobasically, you know, um, market
(10:42):
you in-house, which means hetalks to the sales department.
He's obvious.
Or she or they, they, I'll justsay they, they've been working
with the sales department,they've been working with the,
you know, they've been workingon your cover.
They've been working with theart and design department.
They, they have the, they'reyour connection to everywhere.
They're your connection to themarketing department.
They're your connection to thepublicity department.
And let's talk about marketingfor a second.
Traditional marketing.
Do we have ads in the New YorkTimes anymore?
(11:03):
No.
Do we have ads in many places?
No.
There's not many ads at all.
And print?
Who reads print?
I, I don't know.
So now we have social media.
Well, that's free.
Cool.
But the assets aren't, and nowwe have ai.
Do we wanna use ai?
No, we don't.
So it's sort of like, you know,there's all this stuff like
then, and all these questionsare gonna keep happening.
All these, they're gonna beanswered.
Eventually it might be totallynormal, like.
(11:25):
In this, in the way that eBooksare normal now.
Right.
That's weird to me.
Right.
But it might be totally normalin only five years to have all
AI covers.
I hope not.
I love illustrators and I lovedesigners and I, I went to art
school.
I love artists.
AI is really, really dangerousfor that.
But I mean, you also have tolook at the fact that like, it,
(11:49):
it's cheaper, right?
And money, it's cheap.
It's the green is king andeverybody wants to save money.
And so it's, it's bizarre.
You're always gonna be at apublishing house that pays
someone who doesn't know how towrite for their memoir to be
ghost ghostwritten by someoneelse.
They're gonna pay the millionsof dollars and you're gonna be
getting paid$30,000 for yourbook that you wrote.
And you literally took yourheart outta your chest and rung
(12:10):
it out on the paper and you'recovered in blood and you're
like, why did this guy get this?
Because it's gonna pay yourstuff.
It's gonna pay your advance.
It's worth it.
And it sounds terrible and itactually isn't fair.
I don't even know if it's trueanymore.
I've been told that so manytimes.
I just repeated it to you.
It could be utter bullshit.
I don't wanna give you utterbullshit, but it still keeps
happening.
The line, you know, it keepshappening.
(12:32):
So and so has written thepicture book and it's, you know,
sold a million copies and you'relike, and they get the publicist
that, you know, you may havegiven, you know, like you may
have been in that stable forthis many races and they still
aren't backing you.
And the fact is, it might be thefact that what you write, Amy
King, is not.
(12:53):
What the majority of peoplewanna read on vacation, Amy
King.
And so you have to understandAmy, that they're not gonna give
you their top publicist becausetheir top publicist is working
with John Green right now, orworking with so and so.
Not to say John doesn't writeabsolutely beautiful novels.
He does.
Well, I mean, that's anotherstory.
(13:13):
But like, you know, like that'show it works.
Alice (13:17):
I mean, we got it.
I mean, I have to say for JohnGreen specifically, I'm also
huge.
John Green fan is, that'sanother instance of ringing your
heart out on the page.
And then the flip side beingpicked for him means getting
trotted out across the countryto continually wr your heart out
in front of constantly hundredsof thousands of people and then
go home.
Right.
And, and
Amy (13:37):
be be careful what you wish for.
Exactly.
And, and, and I don't thinkJohn, I mean John is, he's, he's
an interesting examplegenerally.
'cause he, he, well he also had,he had a platform, which is
something most of us whenwriting in fiction, we didn't
really have.
Yep.
He had incredible, and he stillhas it.
It is incredible.
I watch his videos every singleday on the Instagram.
I love his reels and I can'twait to read tuberculosis, which
(13:58):
sounds like a weird thing tosay, but that came out on
Tuesday.
Um, but, um, but you know, inthe end, for me, um, for
whatever reason, and I'm a veryforgiving and very understanding
and patient and, and I'm a, I'ma compassionate human being for
whatever reason, what was toldto me.
(14:19):
That was gonna be done for mybook and I'm not talking, and
this, this would, everybody isnodding.
And any author that would listento the rest of this sentence is
gonna nod and go, yeah, no shit.
That's how it works.
Right?
But like, on the back of myadvanced review copy, you know,
it gives these, I wish I had onein front of me.
It gives these things thatthey're gonna do for your book.
Like, you know, author tour, youknow, I can't even remember what
(14:39):
the rest advertising here andsocial media assets and whatever
it is.
Right?
Um, and usually the two don't,they don't really match.
It doesn't really match reality,but sometimes it can.
And that's nice.
And in this case, you know,there was stuff promised, um,
and stuff said that and likereally said to me this and right
up to the end, like I was evenlike, it was, these are the
(15:00):
places you're gonna go.
This is what you're gonna do.
And um, what actually happenedwas that some of that was
absolutely fabricated.
And, you know, this was a realbook in my heart.
This was, this was, and I oftenthought of it as like my, not my
last ya book.
I don't think it will be mylast.
In fact, I know it's not.
'cause I haven't idea for thattoo.
The last few weeks have beencrazy.
(15:21):
It's'cause I had my birthday,solar return brain goes crazy.
Um, but like, um, but it, italso was the most cathartic and
most helpful book for me in mylife.
Mm-hmm.
So I really don't care.
But I do, it really broke myheart actually.
And it still, and it will, itwill like for the rest of my
life, it will break my heart.
(15:41):
I'm almost, look at me, I'mcrying.
Um, it will break my heart thatsomeone treated it with such.
It was such disregard.
It's the exact same as whensomeone treats your child with
disregard.
I know this because I've beenthere.
Um, or your heart for thatmatter.
And, and that's weird'cause Ijust literally spend an hour and
plus talking about it's notprecious.
It's not precious.
(16:01):
And that's the thing to them.
It's a product.
Yeah.
Alice (3) (16:04):
Yeah.
Amy (16:05):
It's a product that they have to sell.
You may as well have invented a,a, I don't know, a, a a machine,
a a thing, a a mug, a a mouse.
A set of an ear.
You know, like ear earphonecase.
Like, like you, you do have toemotionally Hmm.
Reckon long before you hand itin with the fact that that could
(16:26):
literally be flushed down thetoilet tomorrow.
But what matters is what you gotout of writing it, which is why
I don't want you to take me on apicnic.
I want you to take me to the,if, if we're gonna go for, I'd
rather take a scary walk to thecenter of your soul.
That's what I'd like to do.
Because maybe your soul and mysoul will be able that during
that read and Oh God, I, I feelseen and I feel inspired or
(16:48):
something.
Um, but, you know, my, myeditor, once we discovered what
was going on.
Obviously we could regroup.
He had to go to his higher ups.
We had to situa, you know, wehad a situation where we just
had to regroup and, and try ourbest to do.
We had to cancel more than halfof the tour, or ha we should
have canceled more than half thetour.
Actually, we canceled about halfof it.
(17:09):
And, um, and we, and we wentforward and, and since then, you
know, they were like, Hey, we'regonna give you more.
It was kind of an interestingthing, actually.
This adds onto the, the, theepisode that you linked, um, or
that you will link.
But, um, what was interestingabout it is that I was trying,
they were like, we're gonna domore for you.
As, you know, this isn't the enddate.
(17:30):
That release date isn't, that'snot gonna be your week now.
I mean, you still have to go dothese things and you're gonna go
do them, but we're gonna see ifwe can't get you.
Um, specifically, um, articlesand things like that, which I, I
really wanted to write.
I put all of August aside to dothat and I didn't get any, I got
two blog posts.
That was it.
And, but that's the thing.
I put all that time aside andthen I had to get back to work.
(17:51):
'cause I, you know, I have toeat right and I have to feed my
kid, right?
And so, um, so we did get a fewmore things, but then you're
competing with those otherpeople whose babies are coming
out, that they're being bornthat week and I wanna give them
their space too, you know, soit's sort of like, it's such a.
It, it is a, like, no matter howmany times they'll say, well, we
(18:12):
did our best afterward.
Mm.
It doesn't make up for the factthat that got dropped.
It really doesn't.
I will say that, but there'sJack, I can do about it.
I can't do anything about it.
All I can do is hope that peoplewill pick up, pick the lock,
we'll understand it we'll, likeit, it, you know, it got an
amazing audio books, you know,top 10 thing, which is great.
'cause it's funny you said thething about the audio, but that
(18:34):
audio is a banger.
yeah, so it was, it's still, youknow, it's still, I didn't, I
didn't expect to get emotionalduring that, but it still hurts.
And it, and it probably alwayswill, and, and I don't hold a
grudge, but at the same time,you know, like I do bring
hometown chocolate to the, um,to the headquarters when I go up
to New York City and, you know,I probably will still give that
(18:56):
to my old publicist.
I, I will, I was like, here'sthe thing of chocolate, like, I
hope you're doing well.
Um, that's about it.
That's all I can do.
And that's kind of who I am.
But it, uh, it broke me.
It really hurt me, and I'venever said that part before, but
it did.
this business will do a numberon your mental health.
I've said this to enough peopleand when it, when it comes to
people, I remember sittingoutside of a, of a conference
(19:18):
hall, um, it was a LA, I thinkit was in San Antonio.
It might have been NCTE, theNational Council of Teachers of
English.
If you get into Children'spublishing, you'll know that.
You'll go hopefully, but I'msitting down and I was talking
to two friends and they werenew-ish, but not really to the
business.
And I just said this, thisbusiness does a number on your
mental health.
You need to be really strong,and that's why you need to be
(19:39):
able to write.
That's why I'm telling you towrite books for the right
reason.
Whatever that right reason is toyou.
Um, and if suddenly you're like,oh God, fiction is too hard.
I wanna, I wanna pivot and go toNonfic, great.
Go to nonfiction.
Then whatever feels good,because it will, if you plan on
staying in this and this is theway you're gonna feed yourself,
it's gonna mess you up If youput too much, if, if you really
(20:02):
do expect people to do theirjobs, I hate to say that.
Alice (20:06):
I mean it at, we don't
Amy (20:08):
always,
Alice (20:08):
at the end of the day, what happened during your book
release was just unjust andwrong.
And it, it's really tragic thatyour, the book that you created
that was cathartic for you andwonderful processing for you.
But, and like the reason it's abook and not a journal entry is
(20:29):
so that it can reach readers whocan also respond to it and who
can also go through thatexperience with it.
And the fact that.
You are in a, a space, astructure, a process that
promises a kind of support thatyou then did not receive is just
unjust and wrong.
And it's a particularlyvulnerable thing to happen with
art.
So it's, yeah, first off, I'mjust really sorry.
(20:52):
Yeah.
That, that happened
Amy (20:53):
and, and I'm, I'm certainly not the first or last, in fact,
this person had had a reputationof doing that.
So
Oh dang.
Um, that had happened.
Bef it had something similar hadhappened before.
And so, um, and strangelyenough, um, I agreed, I was told
that's a long story.
(21:13):
I won't get into that, but thiswas supposed to be sort of a new
leaf.
And so, um, sadly, I was theperson, and this is not the
first time in my life, I gavepeople many chances to do their
job.
Whether it was a job as a familymember or a, or a friend or even
a spouse, um, or just their job.
And said, okay, sure.
(21:34):
I'll believe in you.
I'll believe in you.
'cause that's what I do.
I believe in people.
And, um, I'm not a fool.
I'm 55 years old.
I won't believe in this personever again.
But, and I won't, and I honestlywon't believe in the publicity
process again until I, unless Ihear it from the, you know, from
the top.
But I also, I will admit, like.
(21:55):
I don't feel like doing thatmany books with that publisher
anymore, which is a shame'causemy favorite editor is there and,
and I'd like, I will be workingwith him.
So I'm not sure how to reconcilethat.
What I've decided to do insteadis pivot and go back to middle
grade, work with David Levitanfor a while.
Go to adult, see where I end upthere.
Just go other places becausethat, that did affect me.
(22:15):
And, and it's funny because yousaying what you just said might
be the first time anybodyactually validated my feelings
outside of my, you know, myagent and editor at the time.
And again, this isn't sometragedy, this is what happens
every day in publishing.
I really want people to hear mesay this.
This happens all the time inpublishing.
This is how it goes.
You are up against a lot ofbooks.
(22:36):
I don't remember how many booksare published a year, but it is
a lot.
And that is, and then, you know,you're competing with, with,
look, the outside world doesn'tknow, by the way, I just wanna
say this, let's just say thisout loud so we can get it outta
that.
Civilians don't know thedifference between this, an
Amazon published book that hasnever had an editor's eyes on
it, a small press or an Amazonbook that has had an editor's
(23:00):
eyes on it, or a book publishedby, you know, they don't know
that Koff has, you know, is atthe top of a heap and holiday
house might be somewhere in themiddle or whatever.
They don't know any of that.
I had a woman the other day,I'm, oh, what's the name of your
book?
And I was like, oh, well there'sa few books.
It was, oh, okay.
Did you, can I get it on Amazon?
(23:21):
That's pretty much what theaverage person thinks.
I hate to say it, but that isyour average Joe.
Right.
And um, actually more like youraverage Joanne.
Because you know, most readers,most readers women buy books.
Yes.
One of my books.
Um, but um, you know, this isnot uncommon.
This is not some tragedy thathappened to me.
This is sort of what happens inthe business.
Now, did I deserve that?
(23:42):
I literally was at that moment,the holder of the Gold Prince
medal from the year before.
Now it was a shared medal andthat was one of the coolest
things about that, thatparticular win.
But that's another story.
I was holding them.
I'm looking at a medal right infront of me.
It is sitting there.
It is a gold medal.
I'm holding that.
And that's what they chose to doto their medal winner.
That makes me wonder about thepublisher as on a whole, um, but
(24:09):
it is, but again, we go back towhat does Amy King write?
What is she good at?
She's good at the weird stuff.
Yo, that's what she's good at.
And wouldn't would, should wehave published that through
adult?
'cause we also were comingthrough that new time, like I
said, that has, that has pivoteditself.
The actual business has pivotedya has pivoted.
So would that have been, youknow, a better space for it?
(24:29):
Maybe.
And, and so, you know, there'sall those questions in there
and, and I'm not traditional andno one can ever make me
traditional either.
So I don't care.
But it did, it did, it broke mein a way that I have yet I.
Clearly to face because you justmade me cry.
Not in a bad way.
Alice (24:51):
Well, I think that, um, the fact that you are multiple
Prince Award winning, not tomention all of the other awards,
the Prince Award just beingspecifically the highest award
in young adult literature.
Alice (2) (25:03):
Yeah.
Alice (25:04):
The fact that you are multiple Prince Award-winning
recently, prince Award-winning,that you've got all of this
evidence to back, that thequality of your books that
you're creating is fantastic.
This is not a meritocracy.
Amy (25:18):
If I was a man, things would be different.
I will say that to thelisteners.
I will also say, um, that, um, Imean if I was a man with a gold
prince in my hand, that would'vebeen a different situation.
You know how I know that?
Have a look at them.
Yeah.
Have a look at what they didafterwards.
Um, and that's how that is.
(25:39):
Um,
Alice (25:40):
can we go punch a wall?
Can we go smash the patriarchy?
I'm so mad right now.
I may look calm, but I'm so madright now.
Amy (25:46):
It is what it is.
It is what it is.
And it's, it's, it's especiallyin children's literature because
oh, men care about kids.
It's like, um, yeah.
Okay.
They're also the only ones wewere, I was just talking the
other day and it was funny'causebecause there was a, there was a
friend of mine in the room who,who would identify with us.
I was like, you know, actuallyit's white.
White guys get to be reallyfunny in children's literature.
(26:08):
And at some reason, like womenare like, no, you have to be
this or that.
And poignant and sweet and all.
I'm like, this isn't like, youdon't make the rules.
I'm funny all the time.
Not only that, the idea that menare funnier than women is
hilarious.
'cause women go through a lotmore crap and that makes us
funnier and that just is what itis.
'cause we have a dark humor.
It's dark when we're with eachother.
That's when you see us alllaughing our asses off.
(26:29):
It's because we just told a jokethat's way funnier than anything
that a guy could say.
But that's another story.
Um, yeah, no, it, it was, it wastragic in its own way.
But at the same time, like, likeI said, it, it probably changed
me and it probably changed my,it changed definitely the
future.
It changed my future.
I, I don't know where I'm, whereI'm going.
I don't know exactly what'shappening really since that
happened.
It, it knocked me off course.
(26:51):
Um, other people's lazinessaffecting, or, or problems,
whatever it is, whatever thatis.
Like, I work so hard.
I work so hard.
Like, um, I just, it was hard,but I, I'm, I'm, I don't know.
(27:14):
It was a message.
Yeah.
Things happened for a reason ina way.
I don't know.
It's a weird thing for someonelike me to say I've been to
things that absolutely had noreason, but, um.
For this, like I said, you know,um, it's hard to try.
And here's another one for you.
Like, and first of all, ifpeople, listeners don't already
know this, there's plenty ofplaces on the internet you can
find out, but the New York Timesbestseller list isn't the best
(27:35):
seller list.
That's actually not a list ofthe books that sold the most
this week.
The New York Times Wish it wasWishes, it was all of us wishes.
I should have been on there, um,I believe three weeks in a row
in 2022.
Um, and I wasn't because, um, Ibelieve the wording was they
like to keep people that peoplerecognize the names on the line,
whatever, excuse I've heard,like 12 excuses.
(27:56):
I know so many people thatdidn't get there.
I know people who didn't getthere because of transphobia,
homophobia, there's a millionprobably Absolutely racism,
probably sexism, probably.
I don't know.
I have no idea.
I don't know what that curatedlist is, but it's not a
bestseller list.
We also have big awards outthere that are actually not as
fairly, uh, adjudicated as wewould think.
Um, which is one of the reasonsI really like those.
(28:17):
A LA awards.
Those committees work theirbutts off and they are.
One of the things I love aboutthe Prince Committee actually,
and the new all of them, all ofthem, oftentimes they'll bring
in translations.
None of us ever heard about Iand, and I love them.
Oh my God.
And then I'm like, I book andthen I read it.
I'm like, oh my God.
It's one of the best books Iever read.
That's why I love, likelibrarians when they're in
charge, they're gonna find,they're gonna look top to bottom
(28:38):
to find out what they think isthe best book, which is really
cool.
Um, but there are some otherawards out there that even
though publishers pay to havetheir work or have their books
adjudicated, um.
Those books are not consideredin, in that.
And um, that was another thing Ilearned during the lifetime of
pick the lock.
Alice (29:00):
Okay.
But just like the levels of, of,of wrongness there, I mean, when
we're talking about paying to beconsidered for award, that's
like a, that's a kind of wormsaren't there, but specifically
to pay, to be considered forthe, the award and then to not
be considered for the award.
Amy (29:15):
Mm-hmm.
It's a, it's a strange one.
So that's why, you know, it, itis, you gotta be strong.
You gotta walk in there and yougotta have the right reason.
And if the right reason is I'mgonna tell the story, I want
people to hear the story, evenif only 10 people hear the
story.
This is, you know, this is howto do it.
Um, you also have to come inwith some skills of your own,
you know?
(29:35):
Um, and that is, that is whereI, uh, I really envy people who
can do TikTok.
Uh, but at the same time,there's so much on TikTok, I
guess.
I don't know.
I can't go there.
I don't even understand it.
I, people send me stuff, I havean account and I'm like, I get
in there and my, my neighbor,she's like, she sent me like 12
videos.
I'm like, I don't even know howto access these videos.
But that's just'cause I, I, I, Igot all full up with tech.
(29:55):
I, I'm just done.
But, um, you know, it's, it's awild world out there, but
writing's always still worth it.
And writing will never not beworth it.
Alice (30:04):
Yeah.
Yes.
Amy (30:05):
Ever.
It's a beautiful thing to do andit's a, it's a wonderful way to
spend your time and your energy.
So,
Alice (30:13):
well, it sounds like you are coming to this.
Just reflection on thatpublishing journey differently
now than you were in Novemberwhen that, or October.
Really, when that last episodewas recorded.
Yeah.
Um, yeah,
Amy (30:28):
I kind of tried not to think in the last six months.
Alice (30:31):
Yeah.
I think that that I, I get that.
That's reasonable.
I understand that.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Um, I am curious.
Okay.
I I, I'll ask the first, likethe question about the past,
'cause that one's probablyeasier to answer.
The question about the futureseems like it doesn't have an
answer yet, probably, but thequestion about the past is, um,
(30:55):
I'm guessing that part of the rereason why you're in the
traditional publishing space ingeneral is because at the time
when you were pitching thosebooks, your original books
before you'd gotten published,when you were getting started,
the roots of small presses and,um, especially self-publishing,
like there were fewer avenueswith fewer weight, with less
(31:16):
weight behind them to go down tobe choosing from a variety of
publishing routes.
So I guess the question here iswhy did you, in, why did, why is
this the journey, the publishingpath that you have been on for
the last, for the kind of theentirety of your, your
publishing life?
Amy (31:32):
I am so glad you asked me this question because after this
conversation, I really hope thatI can say this with as much,
this is the truth for me.
I have never seen another.
Another way to publish, really,unless I was publishing some of
(31:52):
the bigger genre, some of the,some of the more, um,
packageable genres, right?
So thriller romance, um,mystery, um, series, things like
this, you know, things that,that when, when you're
self-publishing, I know a goodfew people who make a lot of
money, self-publishing, and whatthey do is they release two or
three books a year and boom,boom, boom, because they, their,
(32:13):
their readers want the booksright away.
And you don't, you know, it's adifferent, whole different game.
It's a little bit like goingfrom mm, basketball to hockey.
It, it's, it's not quite, no,it's more like basket.
Maybe it's like soccer tohockey.
Um, but, but something likethat.
Anyway, um, for me, yeah, you'reright.
(32:34):
Traditional publishing was theonly way for me to go because
when I was first, you know,doing the querying and all that
stuff, the only way toself-publish was Vanity
Publishing, which was putting ina lot of money, which I didn't
have.
Um, to get a bunch of books thatyou'd basically drive around,
put in the, in the back, in yourtrunk and, and probably with
crappy covers, sari, but true.
And, um, and you had to go toplaces and sell them yourself.
(32:55):
I am not, I don't have thattime.
I have a, I have, you know, Ihad a family, I had young kids,
I had, you know, all thesethings and I didn't have that
time.
But I also, so the number onereason that I publish
traditionally is, isdistribution.
Okay.
Now.
When I started self pu when Istarted publishing, sorry, when
I started traditionallypublishing, we had Borders, we
had books Ail, we had Barnes andNoble.
(33:16):
We know that now Barnes andNoble, Barnes and Noble didn't
buy Amy King books.
Usually they didn't stock a lotof them and, and their orders.
And, and, but, but in the olddays, one of the measures of who
got the best pub, who got thebest publicity and who got the
marketing and stuff, was how,who, how many copies Barnes and
Noble bought.
Well now in children'spublishing, they don't buy
(33:37):
hardcovers, not of middle gradesand not of young adults anymore.
So it's kind of interesting'cause they're doing that for
money reasons, but they're kindof making themselves the, first
of all, they beat out, likeBorders is gone.
Like Amazon's eaten all theseother, you know, box stores now.
Barnes and Noble's, all new oneleft.
And now they have become almostkind of, they've made themselves
weirdly not that important whenit comes to children's
(33:59):
literature because we no longerdepend on their order number to,
to figure out certain stuff.
Now they still do order some,you know, and again, they'll
probably order the, the onesthat you know, the big, you know
the big ones.
Right, right.
Which is cool.
But, um, their whole systemchanged when they were bought
by, I guess it was Waterstonesor whoever, the guy who went
runs Waterstones.
So because of that dis butdistribution is still really
(34:23):
important because, I'm gonna sayit man, there's no more, there's
no more important.
Mechanism in the book businessin this country than independent
booksellers.
Not only are they incrediblehuman beings that are running,
family owned, oftentimesbookstores, um, in random
little, small towns.
The reason I live in this house,in this town is because it has
(34:44):
an independent bookstore.
I moved here because I, I, thesepeople are family to me, right?
Aaron's books is family to me.
If you go on my website, you canbuy any of my books.
I will personalize them.
I will sign them, I will dowhatever you want.
It is just up the street.
I love it.
Um, but independent booksellersto me are it, they're it.
And if you have a self-publishedbook is really hard to go one
(35:08):
place to the other and try andget them to, to stock your book.
I mean, it, it's really, it's alot of work.
Um, so that is the reason Itraditionally publish.
And I'll always traditionallypublish because I did
self-publish a, uh, short storycollection years ago as a, as a
project just to see.
I'm like, well, okay, my name'sgetting big.
I'll put my name on this.
It'll be there, marked on, onAmazon where everybody
(35:28):
apparently buys their books.
Don't please buy them fromAaron's books.
No.
Buy them from independentbooksellers and please stop
downloading them for free.
You're stealing from me and itreally sucks.
Um, and so, um.
Actually, you actually, you'restealing from my children.
You're stealing their collegetuitions, you're stealing their
food.
It really sucks.
It really, really sucks that Ihave to have three other jobs to
be able to afford to write.
(35:48):
And then that kind of stuffhappens to me.
Like, seriously, like, you gottabe, sir.
You gotta be kidding me.
But that's why, um, and smallpresses, like, I, I still
consider because I'm a poet, soI still consider small presses
for things like poetry.
Um, because they have, theirdistribution is specifically for
what they do, right?
So I have a good friend whopublishes a lot of theology, a
(36:10):
lot of really cool theologyessays, a fantastic essayist.
Um, he publishes through a placewhere they dis, you know, they
distribute through, you know, orthey're known for what they do.
However, I've been saying tohim, listen, there are some
really great traditional or, youknow, traditional publishing
directions you could go and youwouldn't have to bust your butt
this much afterward.
(36:30):
You could be concentrating onyour next book.
So that's why it really is.
I still think it's the most, asmuch as much hassle as I've just
sort of described lives withinit, it still is.
It does its job.
It does what it's supposed todo.
And, uh, you know, yeah, it paysits CEOs a lot when in actual
effect it's the editors and the,and the publishers inside those
(36:51):
houses, you know, that really dothe, the bulk of the work.
And actually, you know,honestly, everybody in that
building does a lot of work.
But, um, uh, that's why.
Did that answer the question?
It
Alice (37:02):
does.
It does.
It does.
And I think that the, like.
Galling piece of this is thatultimately the publisher has one
job and the job is to distributeyour books.
And the fact that the, anddistribution and publicity are
not exactly the same, like they,they go hand in hand.
(37:24):
Distribution being like gettingthe book into the store and
publicity being like gettingawareness around the book.
So people go buy it from thestore,
Amy (37:31):
making sure the 40 copies you sent don't get returned to
the warehouse.
Yes.
Alice (37:34):
Right.
That does no one any good.
And then scrapped.
Amy (37:37):
Scrapped.
It counts against me money-wiseand nobody can resell it, which
is also the dumbest practice.
So maybe they need to modernizetheir practice a little bit, but
Alice (37:46):
whatever.
Right.
Talk about like sustainabilityand publishing.
That seems like maybe not thething, um, right.
But.
The fact that the, the, the roleof the publisher in your writing
practice is for them to get yourbooks on the shelves and
hopefully help bring people into sell them.
And they, like, they're notgoing to magically sell
(38:07):
thousands of copies because theyjust like wave a magic wand.
But the fact that they did notdo the things that were their
responsibility to do in the onepart of the process, that is
their responsibility to managelike that.
Amy (38:20):
But that is the most common story you will hear in
traditional publishing.
Yeah.
So I don't wanna make it soundlike that is special.
It's not.
Now, in this particular time itwas particularly special,
meaning I was literally shown athing that was false.
Right?
That is, that's a little bit,whoa.
What's happening in your brain?
I don't know.
But I hope you get, I hopethings are okay.
Um, but on a whole, what youjust described is actually the
(38:45):
typical journey throughtraditional publishing when it
comes to those things that wemight expect that aren't really
what we thought they were.
Alice (38:56):
Yeah,
Amy (38:57):
because what you have, what we didn't talk about are the
salespeople.
Those salespeople go, they go,there are sales reps.
They call their, they call theirpeople, they call the stores.
And so they're like, Hey, youknow, you check out this book.
This is a book you gotta buythis year.
And this is, these are the,these are the unsung heroes of
publishing and nobody even knowsabout them.
You know, there's so many ofthose that I don't know about
(39:17):
that I can't even tell youabout.
Like, there's so many peoplethat make this thing work.
Right?
And so, you know, but what youjust described, I mean, I've yet
to meet an author outside of,you know, the ones that did get
kind of elevated that when thestuff on the back of their arc
on the back of their, you know,their advanced review copy or
advanced reader copy matchedwhat actually happened.
(39:40):
Mm-hmm.
Um, that's very rare that itwould do that.
So I, you know, you have tolearn that earlier on, you know,
the first time, first few timesyou're like, how come this
didn't happen?
Your age's like, oh, honey.
Like, and then, but then, thenyou really learn and, and then
you really realize, like I said,you know, and watching it change
and morph and just watching eventhe human beings inside of the
business, you know, um, howthey're affected by their own
(40:02):
lives.
There's, there's people in therewho, who have lives too, who get
sick, who, you know, who I don'tknow.
I think it's one of those thingswhere I'm glad for my compassion
that I have, but.
You just brought out like 20minutes ago or half an hour ago.
You just brought out the truefeelings that I shoved down
since September when it allhappened.
'cause when it all happened, itwas like, oh, okay, okay.
(40:24):
Action stations, you know, andthen you're in action stations
and then suddenly you'resupposed to be doing three jobs
and because you've,'cause youhad this other side set aside.
Now I'm writing articles at twoo'clock in the morning and I'm
losing sleep and I'm, I can't dothat.
I've had a stroke two years ago.
I have to, I have to take careof myself.
You know, all these differentthings to make up for somebody's
mistake.
And she didn't even care.
You know what I mean?
Like, I don't think she did.
(40:44):
I, I never, I never got anythingfrom her and she never said
that.
And she was just, she seems shestill works there, you know,
still, it's still what it is.
And so it's just sort of like,okay, no one ever copped to
this.
I don't understand it, but Iguess here we go, you know, you
just keep going.
Life isn't fair and Neither'spublishing, nothing's pub,
(41:05):
nothing's fair.
The only thing you can do iswrite the books.
Yeah.
That's it.
Alice (41:10):
So, um, this is, this is not a trick question, I promise.
We'll just see what happens whenI ask this question.
I'm curious.
Okay.
Is there anything that you wouldbe interested in sharing with
our listeners about futurethoughts, publication, roots,
publication, places, pub, maybejust even the books that you're
publishing.
When you look towards thefuture, what do you see?
Amy (41:32):
When I look toward the future, I see me, um, using
what, what I've gained from thelast 15 years of publishing or
more, um, is that I am still alifelong volunteer.
I never run my own nonprofitcalled Gracie's House.
You will see me working it a lotmore.
(41:52):
Um, it is, uh, our mission issafe spaces for L-G-B-T-Q Youth.
Um, I think in the politicalclimate that we're in right now,
it's more important than ever.
Um, we run summer camps, we runart and expression workshops,
um, things like this, and wegive grants to places that do
the same.
Um, you will see me publishing aresistance newspaper, um, if,
(42:14):
uh, if my neurodivergence hasanything to do with it, and I
think it pretty much rules me.
Um, you will see me, um, doingthat, but book-wise, you will
see some middle grades.
You will see some adult work.
Um, and, you know, mostly Iwanna get back to teaching.
I'm about to get, you know, I'm,I'm about to write my
dissertation once this book isoff my desk.
(42:34):
Um, so I'm about to, I'm mean,it's mostly written.
I just have to write like thelast, the end of it, the hardest
part really.
Um, and I'm take the next twomonths and really concentrate on
that.
Um, while I'm also taking careof my, you know, I'm a solo mom,
so I've taking care of my kid,I'm taking care of my mom in a
way too.
Um, and, uh, so, but publishingm you're gonna see probably, um.
(43:01):
A sh an interesting short, um,not short, but shorter, um,
younger Ya from Dutton, I think,um, that I've been working on
thinking it was a middle grade,but it's not.
Um, and then you'll see a fewmiddle grades, you'll see some
adult work.
Um, and I'm not sure after thatI, I have to figure it out.
(43:24):
I mean, I've been painting alot.
I may just give up writing for alittle while and paint if I can
actually make money at it.
Who would know?
I mean, that's anothercrapshoot, right?
It's all a crapshoot.
But for the, for the moment, I'mpretty busy.
I've actually, ive leftsomething else off.
Um, I do a lot of, um, localsuicide education.
I'm hoping to make that morenational to mental health
America, um, so that people canprobably, hopefully drop the
(43:46):
stigma and stop beingjudgemental.
Um, and more understand the factthat we are in the biggest
mental health crisis that thiscountry has ever seen.
Um, not just teen mental health,everybody's mental health, but
especially teen mental health.
Um, but yeah, I think you'll seeme doing the same stuff.
I don't know, I don't think Icould ever give up writing.
It's just, it's like, no, it islike a drug that way.
(44:06):
You can't, you can't give it up.
And I don't, I don't do anyother drugs, but this is the
best one.
I, I mean, I went to art school,so I, this is what I always say
to people, like, this is thebest buzz I ever had.
Writing a book is the best buzzI ever had.
And, and I, I can't not do it.
Even though today I am like, ah,this is slogging through this
manuscript.
But it's just the time.
It's, it's the particular timeof the manuscript.
(44:27):
But yeah, future, you'll see allthose things for me.
Alice (44:30):
Yeah.
And what happens after the wordsget put on the page is a totally
different story, but the act ofputting the words on the page
and figuring out what they meanand how to put them together and
the way that tells the story youwanna tell and carries the
meaning you wanna share, that'salways, always, always valuable.
That's
Amy (44:45):
always the most important thing.
I mean, and if that's, if I can,you know, I once had somebody
say to me, Hey, I wanna talk toyou and we were in a fill
something, I wanna talk to youabout something.
I said, cool.
And then she had published onebook and um, I had talked to her
before she'd written a, like herfirst book.
And she's like, I'm not gettingpublished because of insert
reason here.
And that reason wasn'tnecessarily accurate.
(45:05):
That's how she felt.
And that's cool.
And I'm not gonna take that awayfrom her, but the reason was
just'cause it was her first bookand it probably didn't hit the
mark.
And that's okay.
Um, but it's hard to let go ofthat first book.
I mean, for me it was like, youknow, I mean, I published, I
published my eighth book or myninth book, you know, so I
always feel like, you know,people are like, I should
publish my first book.
I'm like, oh, please.
But anyway, not everything's todo with me, you know?
(45:26):
But she said, oh, we wanna talk.
Okay, cool.
So later in the day she's like,I'm like, Hey man, what did you
wanna talk about?
You know?
And she's like, I need to figureout marketing ideas.
I'm like, oh, well I suck atmarketing and I'm not a
marketer.
I how to do that.
And I was like, but for what?
And she goes, well, for thebook.
And I'm like, but that book cameout two years ago.
And I used to always say to herwhen she was kind of talking
about the first book, you know,like, write the next book.
(45:48):
Don't worry about the firstbook.
If the first book is reallygreat and the reason that you're
saying is, is the reason thatyou're not getting published,
cool.
Then it's really great.
You're gonna get it published,right?
It's gonna happen.
You're, if they're gonna say, doyou have anything else you don't
hear, take this.
And if they like it off they go,you know, but I said, um, you
know, what do you mean for thatbook?
And she was like, yeah, well,I'm trying to, you know, still
make more money off it.
I'm like, no, no.
(46:11):
The way we make more money inthis business is we write the
next book.
And that's the thing.
And, and so, you know, always bewriting the next book, but also
always be somehow making itbeneficial to you.
Yeah.
Catharsis, um, exploration, um,this, this sequel to dig that I
talked about, that's gonna besome interesting exploration of
(46:32):
some stuff that I'm reallyexcited about.
Um, I'm really excited about theone that's, you know, on the
computer already, um, orstarted, you know.
Um, so yeah, I think that's thething.
That's the main thing is thatwriting is really all still all
about you.
It really, it's not about howother people perceive you and
when, and if you get big enoughwhere people per, that's when it
gets scary, like we talkedabout, you know?
(46:52):
Then suddenly it's like.
You know, it's like every wantsa piece of you, you know, I
remember meeting John Green thefirst time and the, the amount
of people I had to peel throughto just say, hi, John.
Thanks for that thing you saidabout my book online.
That's really all I wanted tosay.
And by the time I got to him, hewas so overwhelmed, he could
barely talk to me.
He was like, I gotta get outtathis room.
And I was like, I couldunderstand that.
You know?
(47:13):
So, you know, just remember,like, it's, it's, you do, you,
you define your own, you defineyour career at this point.
So, you know, I'm gonna trypicture books too.
Oh, that's another one.
I got two picture books on the,on the roster for this year.
Fun.
Yeah.
Totally fun.
Alice (47:31):
Yeah.
You define your own career.
I think that is a fantasticpoint for us to bring our
publishing conversation too.
After all of that mess.
You define your own career.
Amy (47:42):
You do.
The things a publisher promisesare unlikely to take place
exactly as described.
Yet you define your own career.
You could write an excellentbook, the Book of your Heart,
worthy of all the awards, andstill not be recognized by
bestseller lists or givenpublicity support from your
(48:04):
publisher.
Yet the most important thing isto tell the story that you truly
want to tell in the way you wantto tell it.
The industry will treat yourbook with the impersonal
carelessness that they wouldtreat any other product yet
writing is always, always worthit.
(48:25):
That's what I'm taking from thisconversation.
I would love to hear what youare taking from it, what stood
out to you, or maybe how youfeel after listening, Because I
had a lot of big feelings forsure, and so did Amy, so I
wouldn't be surprised if thiskind of hit for you as well.
I've opened up the comments onthe blog post for this episode
so you can share and we canchat.
(48:45):
If you'd like to share yourthoughts, go to alice
sudler.com/ 84 and leave acomment.
I'll be reading and replying toeveryone.
And if you'd like to hear morefrom Amy, I have two more
episodes for you.
First, go check out Amy'sconversation with Jenny Nash on
the Am Writing podcast.
They recorded that episode backin October of 2024, just weeks
(49:06):
after the pick the lock pubdate.
so Amy was still very much inthe middle of the launch falling
apart around her.
You'll hear some more detailsabout what happened, and you'll
hear how her perspective hasshifted in the five months
between that episode and whenshe and I recorded our
conversation.
And second, go check out Amy'sepisode about revision here on
your next draft.
She's a master at revisingexcellence novels, and in that
(49:29):
episode she goes behind thescenes and pick the lock and
several of her other books toshare specific editorial changes
that she made to shape them intothe stories she wanted to tell.
Links to both of those episodesare in the show notes.
and if you wanna support Amy anddiscover an excellent novel that
you might not have heard of,pick up a copy of Pick the Lock.
(49:49):
You can order it from Aaron'sbooks, Amy's local bookstore,
and she'll even sign it for you.
You can find that link in theshow notes as well.
Above all, I hope that youboldly write the stories that
are important to you.
Because the most important thingis to tell the story that you
truly want to tell in the waythat you want to tell it.
(50:12):
You define your own career, andwriting is always, always worth
it.
Happy editing.
What happens after you edit yourbook?
(00:03):
What happens after you've bearedthe story of your heart, crafted
it into an excellent novel andpresented it to the world?
What happens when you gettraditionally published, when
you receive awards andaccolades, and when it looks
like you've won the AuthorCareer Lottery?
last month.
I brought author as S King onthe podcast to share how she
(00:24):
revises award.
Award-winning novels, complex,intense, surrealist mind bending
stories meant to challenge herreaders to think.
But that wasn't the end of theconversation.
In fact, it wasn't even thestart.
That conversation began monthsearlier when I heard the story
of her book launch for herlatest novel.
(00:45):
I won't spoil the ending here,but I will say the launch did
not go how she expected, so.
In today's episode, I'm bringingAmy back on the podcast to tell
us her publishing story and togive us a glimpse of what comes
after.
After the writing, the revising,the revising, the revising, and
(01:06):
the revising.
It's a peek into traditionalpublishing, a reality check
about how navigating theindustry feels to an author in
the prime of her career, and areminder of what really matters
when it comes to measuring yourbook's success Welcome to your
(02:10):
next draft.
This episode is a bit of adeparture from the typical
conversations that I share onthis podcast.
I love editing, and so thispodcast is all about revision,
not writing, not publishing, notmarketing, but revising
excellent novels.
But in today's episode, we'regoing beyond revision to talk
(02:33):
about publishing.
I'm sharing the second part ofmy conversation with Author as S
King, where we talked about herexperience during the
publication and launch of herlatest novel.
Pick the Lock.
can I be honest?
As an independent editor andbook coach, as an avid reader,
as a person who cares deeplyabout excellent books and
creative support for the authorswho write them, I found Amy's
(02:56):
experience harrowing.
She's the multi award-winningauthor of 15 outstanding novels
for middle graders, teens andadults.
She's in the prime of hercareer.
She's traditionally publishedand she's gathered a team of an
agent editor and publishinghouse to support her in her
career and launch her books intothe world.
But when Pick the Lock wasreleased in September of 2024,
(03:18):
her launch did not go at allaccording to plan.
I heard her speak about thatexperience on the Am Writing
podcast with Jenny Nash back inthe fall, and I knew then that
it was a conversation I reallywanted to bring to your next
draft.
But again, this is a podcastabout editing, not publishing,
so I had to really ask myselfwhy.
(03:40):
This is an importantconversation.
That part was never in question,but why is it important for me
to share Amy's story of runningthe gauntlet of publishing here?
Here's where I landed and what Ireally don't want you to miss.
Many of the writers that I workwith, and many of the writers
listening to this podcast areaiming for traditional
publishing.
(04:00):
You want to get picked up by anagent, sign a deal with a
publisher, see the publisher'scallon on the spine of your
book, and find your name on theshelves of Barnes and Noble.
And because that's your goal, itis easy to measure the success
of your revision process bywhether that happens to say that
you'll know whether yourrevision worked or not, whether
it was good enough or not,whether it's done or not, by
(04:21):
whether you sign with an agentand get a publishing deal or
not.
And yes, there's a kernel oftruth there.
Publishing is a competitivefield.
Agents and publishers arelooking for well-told stories
and well-refined manuscripts.
And a lot of the times whenagents reject queries, it's
because the books they'rerejecting aren't yet ready for
prime time, but.
(04:44):
If you treat the industry'ssupport and approval of you and
your book as the measure of yoursuccess, you are setting
yourself up for disappointmentand even harm.
Amy's going to talk about thatmore in our conversation, so I
won't steal her thunder, but Iwant you to go into this knowing
that one reason why I think thismatters and why it's relevant to
(05:06):
revision, even though we won'ttalk about revision hardly at
all.
Because landing the agent,landing the publishing deal,
getting the book launch, that isnot the only measure of your
success in revising your novel.
It's not even the most importantmeasure of your revision
success.
It's a really big deal for sure,but it involves so many other
(05:27):
factors outside of your own workrevising your novel, and if
things in your publishingjourney don't go how you
planned.
I want you to know with absolutecertainty and unshakeable
confidence that you have createdthe book you want to create.
You have told the story youwanted to tell, and you have
told that story to the very bestof your ability.
(05:51):
One more thing I want tomention.
Amy and I had a long ramblingconversation for over two hours.
I shared the other part of thatconversation where we talked
about revision in episode 82 ofyour next draft.
You don't have to listen to thatepisode in order to understand
this one, but we do occasionallyreference it.
So if it sounds like we'recalling back to things that you
haven't heard us talk abouthere, you can find the rest of
(06:13):
that conversation in episode 82,which I've linked in the show
notes.
Alright, that's enough preamble.
I won't keep you any longer.
Let's hear from Amy.
Alice (06:23):
writers have an idea of what it looks like to be
traditionally published and theidea is very rosy.
tell us the story of what itlooked like to go from pick the
lock, the manuscript that youshipped off to your agent and
editor to pick the lock, theversion that is now on the
shelves, waiting for readers tobuy it.
Amy (06:45):
Okay.
Um, first of all, your mileagemay vary regardless, right?
So you have, I have friends whohave the top publicists, they
have the top marketing, theyhave the, just because their
book was picked to be the leadtitle, um.
And that doesn't necessarilymean it's not, that doesn't have
(07:06):
to be what is the best mean?
Like, I don't even know what thebest means, right?
Like, it doesn't like it, itdoesn't matter.
Like your book could be the bestbook and it may never, like, it
may be the, the lowest on theirradar when it comes to publicity
and things like that.
It's also important to know thatthe publishing business is
really hard to work in.
(07:27):
Everyone who's working in thepublishing, but, and I can't say
everyone.
I'm sure the higher ups and theCEOs are paid.
Well, I really don't know.
What I do know is that thepeople you're going to be
working with in a publishinghouse work their asses off and
they don't get paid enough, justlike everybody else in the world
working their asses off.
They don't, and worse yet, therehave been layoffs, there have
(07:50):
been issues depending on thepublishers, whatever.
So, and, and there have beenchanges in the world, right?
We now have social media.
When I started this, when Istarted publishing, Kindle
wasn't a thing.
Think about that for a sec.
So the first, and this isinteresting'cause now most of
my, most of my contracts are oldenough that, so quick nerdy
(08:10):
stuff.
So when you publish a paperback,right?
When you get to the paperback,right?
Of a, of a book.
Let's say you have a hardcoverthan a paperback, whatever it,
the, the old days, okay?
Before computers and theinternet, which really wasn't
that long.
Um, a warehouse has to holdyour, your stock.
They have to hold your books.
So they print, let's say they doa print run of a.
(08:32):
They have 10,000 books and they,they release those, they send
them out.
Some of those get returned.
That gets deleted from your, youknow, your, your, your sales or
whatever.
We're not getting into that.
Um, but now we have demand.
Well, here's the thing.
My old contracts never had printon demand in them.
So technically, if you'reprinting on demand, I get to get
(08:54):
my rights back because you'renot printing X amount that stays
in the, that stay in thewarehouse, you know, that kind
of stuff.
So there's all kinds of funkystuff.
The point is though, I don'teven know where I, why I went on
that tangent.
The, the point is that, um,everybody's overworked and
underpaid.
Uh, you just start there.
Everyone is working on x numberof books, every catalog, and go
(09:15):
and look at the catalog, look atyour publisher's catalog and
have a look at the fact thatthat publicity department at, in
that season has four bookscoming out every Tuesday.
If you don't hit the window ofwhatever your max velocity is in
that first week, you know, ifyou're, if you're looking for
(09:37):
them to advertise you on their,on their Instagram page
constantly, don't do that.
Don't do that.
They will, if you're the leadtitle, but you might not be the
lead title next time.
Things are very, they move fastin this business.
You never know when you're goingto be that book, and you may
never be that book.
(09:59):
That's why you gotta aim forpersonal goals, not goals that
are outside of you.
Because what is that book?
You know, I have, somebody saidto me recently, I've been trying
to win an award for years.
I'm like, oh my God, how do youdo that?
I don't know how to try to winan award.
That's a really weird thing todo, right?
Like i's like, I can see that asa track runner.
I know how to, okay, justpractice until you get to be the
(10:20):
fastest person on the track.
Then you can win an award.
That's cool.
I don't know how to do that inthis business.
There's, there's no way I, Iwould, I could tell you how to
do that.
But anyway, my editor'sfantastic.
An editor.
What an editor's job is afterthey edit and after they work
with you on the stuff that we'vealready talked about, an
editor's job after that is tobasically, you know, um, market
(10:42):
you in-house, which means hetalks to the sales department.
He's obvious.
Or she or they, they, I'll justsay they, they've been working
with the sales department,they've been working with the,
you know, they've been workingon your cover.
They've been working with theart and design department.
They, they have the, they'reyour connection to everywhere.
They're your connection to themarketing department.
They're your connection to thepublicity department.
And let's talk about marketingfor a second.
Traditional marketing.
Do we have ads in the New YorkTimes anymore?
(11:03):
No.
Do we have ads in many places?
No.
There's not many ads at all.
And print?
Who reads print?
I, I don't know.
So now we have social media.
Well, that's free.
Cool.
But the assets aren't, and nowwe have ai.
Do we wanna use ai?
No, we don't.
So it's sort of like, you know,there's all this stuff like
then, and all these questionsare gonna keep happening.
All these, they're gonna beanswered.
Eventually it might be totallynormal, like.
(11:25):
In this, in the way that eBooksare normal now.
Right.
That's weird to me.
Right.
But it might be totally normalin only five years to have all
AI covers.
I hope not.
I love illustrators and I lovedesigners and I, I went to art
school.
I love artists.
AI is really, really dangerousfor that.
But I mean, you also have tolook at the fact that like, it,
(11:49):
it's cheaper, right?
And money, it's cheap.
It's the green is king andeverybody wants to save money.
And so it's, it's bizarre.
You're always gonna be at apublishing house that pays
someone who doesn't know how towrite for their memoir to be
ghost ghostwritten by someoneelse.
They're gonna pay the millionsof dollars and you're gonna be
getting paid$30,000 for yourbook that you wrote.
And you literally took yourheart outta your chest and rung
(12:10):
it out on the paper and you'recovered in blood and you're
like, why did this guy get this?
Because it's gonna pay yourstuff.
It's gonna pay your advance.
It's worth it.
And it sounds terrible and itactually isn't fair.
I don't even know if it's trueanymore.
I've been told that so manytimes.
I just repeated it to you.
It could be utter bullshit.
I don't wanna give you utterbullshit, but it still keeps
happening.
The line, you know, it keepshappening.
(12:32):
So and so has written thepicture book and it's, you know,
sold a million copies and you'relike, and they get the publicist
that, you know, you may havegiven, you know, like you may
have been in that stable forthis many races and they still
aren't backing you.
And the fact is, it might be thefact that what you write, Amy
King, is not.
(12:53):
What the majority of peoplewanna read on vacation, Amy
King.
And so you have to understandAmy, that they're not gonna give
you their top publicist becausetheir top publicist is working
with John Green right now, orworking with so and so.
Not to say John doesn't writeabsolutely beautiful novels.
He does.
Well, I mean, that's anotherstory.
(13:13):
But like, you know, like that'show it works.
Alice (13:17):
I mean, we got it.
I mean, I have to say for JohnGreen specifically, I'm also
huge.
John Green fan is, that'sanother instance of ringing your
heart out on the page.
And then the flip side beingpicked for him means getting
trotted out across the countryto continually wr your heart out
in front of constantly hundredsof thousands of people and then
go home.
Right.
And, and
Amy (13:37):
be be careful what you wish for.
Exactly.
And, and, and I don't thinkJohn, I mean John is, he's, he's
an interesting examplegenerally.
'cause he, he, well he also had,he had a platform, which is
something most of us whenwriting in fiction, we didn't
really have.
Yep.
He had incredible, and he stillhas it.
It is incredible.
I watch his videos every singleday on the Instagram.
I love his reels and I can'twait to read tuberculosis, which
(13:58):
sounds like a weird thing tosay, but that came out on
Tuesday.
Um, but, um, but you know, inthe end, for me, um, for
whatever reason, and I'm a veryforgiving and very understanding
and patient and, and I'm a, I'ma compassionate human being for
whatever reason, what was toldto me.
(14:19):
That was gonna be done for mybook and I'm not talking, and
this, this would, everybody isnodding.
And any author that would listento the rest of this sentence is
gonna nod and go, yeah, no shit.
That's how it works.
Right?
But like, on the back of myadvanced review copy, you know,
it gives these, I wish I had onein front of me.
It gives these things thatthey're gonna do for your book.
Like, you know, author tour, youknow, I can't even remember what
(14:39):
the rest advertising here andsocial media assets and whatever
it is.
Right?
Um, and usually the two don't,they don't really match.
It doesn't really match reality,but sometimes it can.
And that's nice.
And in this case, you know,there was stuff promised, um,
and stuff said that and likereally said to me this and right
up to the end, like I was evenlike, it was, these are the
(15:00):
places you're gonna go.
This is what you're gonna do.
And um, what actually happenedwas that some of that was
absolutely fabricated.
And, you know, this was a realbook in my heart.
This was, this was, and I oftenthought of it as like my, not my
last ya book.
I don't think it will be mylast.
In fact, I know it's not.
'cause I haven't idea for thattoo.
The last few weeks have beencrazy.
(15:21):
It's'cause I had my birthday,solar return brain goes crazy.
Um, but like, um, but it, italso was the most cathartic and
most helpful book for me in mylife.
Mm-hmm.
So I really don't care.
But I do, it really broke myheart actually.
And it still, and it will, itwill like for the rest of my
life, it will break my heart.
(15:41):
I'm almost, look at me, I'mcrying.
Um, it will break my heart thatsomeone treated it with such.
It was such disregard.
It's the exact same as whensomeone treats your child with
disregard.
I know this because I've beenthere.
Um, or your heart for thatmatter.
And, and that's weird'cause Ijust literally spend an hour and
plus talking about it's notprecious.
It's not precious.
(16:01):
And that's the thing to them.
It's a product.
Yeah.
Alice (3) (16:04):
Yeah.
Amy (16:05):
It's a product that they have to sell.
You may as well have invented a,a, I don't know, a, a a machine,
a a thing, a a mug, a a mouse.
A set of an ear.
You know, like ear earphonecase.
Like, like you, you do have toemotionally Hmm.
Reckon long before you hand itin with the fact that that could
(16:26):
literally be flushed down thetoilet tomorrow.
But what matters is what you gotout of writing it, which is why
I don't want you to take me on apicnic.
I want you to take me to the,if, if we're gonna go for, I'd
rather take a scary walk to thecenter of your soul.
That's what I'd like to do.
Because maybe your soul and mysoul will be able that during
that read and Oh God, I, I feelseen and I feel inspired or
(16:48):
something.
Um, but, you know, my, myeditor, once we discovered what
was going on.
Obviously we could regroup.
He had to go to his higher ups.
We had to situa, you know, wehad a situation where we just
had to regroup and, and try ourbest to do.
We had to cancel more than halfof the tour, or ha we should
have canceled more than half thetour.
Actually, we canceled about halfof it.
(17:09):
And, um, and we, and we wentforward and, and since then, you
know, they were like, Hey, we'regonna give you more.
It was kind of an interestingthing, actually.
This adds onto the, the, theepisode that you linked, um, or
that you will link.
But, um, what was interestingabout it is that I was trying,
they were like, we're gonna domore for you.
As, you know, this isn't the enddate.
(17:30):
That release date isn't, that'snot gonna be your week now.
I mean, you still have to go dothese things and you're gonna go
do them, but we're gonna see ifwe can't get you.
Um, specifically, um, articlesand things like that, which I, I
really wanted to write.
I put all of August aside to dothat and I didn't get any, I got
two blog posts.
That was it.
And, but that's the thing.
I put all that time aside andthen I had to get back to work.
(17:51):
'cause I, you know, I have toeat right and I have to feed my
kid, right?
And so, um, so we did get a fewmore things, but then you're
competing with those otherpeople whose babies are coming
out, that they're being bornthat week and I wanna give them
their space too, you know, soit's sort of like, it's such a.
It, it is a, like, no matter howmany times they'll say, well, we
(18:12):
did our best afterward.
Mm.
It doesn't make up for the factthat that got dropped.
It really doesn't.
I will say that, but there'sJack, I can do about it.
I can't do anything about it.
All I can do is hope that peoplewill pick up, pick the lock,
we'll understand it we'll, likeit, it, you know, it got an
amazing audio books, you know,top 10 thing, which is great.
'cause it's funny you said thething about the audio, but that
(18:34):
audio is a banger.
yeah, so it was, it's still, youknow, it's still, I didn't, I
didn't expect to get emotionalduring that, but it still hurts.
And it, and it probably alwayswill, and, and I don't hold a
grudge, but at the same time,you know, like I do bring
hometown chocolate to the, um,to the headquarters when I go up
to New York City and, you know,I probably will still give that
(18:56):
to my old publicist.
I, I will, I was like, here'sthe thing of chocolate, like, I
hope you're doing well.
Um, that's about it.
That's all I can do.
And that's kind of who I am.
But it, uh, it broke me.
It really hurt me, and I'venever said that part before, but
it did.
this business will do a numberon your mental health.
I've said this to enough peopleand when it, when it comes to
people, I remember sittingoutside of a, of a conference
(19:18):
hall, um, it was a LA, I thinkit was in San Antonio.
It might have been NCTE, theNational Council of Teachers of
English.
If you get into Children'spublishing, you'll know that.
You'll go hopefully, but I'msitting down and I was talking
to two friends and they werenew-ish, but not really to the
business.
And I just said this, thisbusiness does a number on your
mental health.
You need to be really strong,and that's why you need to be
(19:39):
able to write.
That's why I'm telling you towrite books for the right
reason.
Whatever that right reason is toyou.
Um, and if suddenly you're like,oh God, fiction is too hard.
I wanna, I wanna pivot and go toNonfic, great.
Go to nonfiction.
Then whatever feels good,because it will, if you plan on
staying in this and this is theway you're gonna feed yourself,
it's gonna mess you up If youput too much, if, if you really
(20:02):
do expect people to do theirjobs, I hate to say that.
Alice (20:06):
I mean it at, we don't
Amy (20:08):
always,
Alice (20:08):
at the end of the day, what happened during your book
release was just unjust andwrong.
And it, it's really tragic thatyour, the book that you created
that was cathartic for you andwonderful processing for you.
But, and like the reason it's abook and not a journal entry is
(20:29):
so that it can reach readers whocan also respond to it and who
can also go through thatexperience with it.
And the fact that.
You are in a, a space, astructure, a process that
promises a kind of support thatyou then did not receive is just
unjust and wrong.
And it's a particularlyvulnerable thing to happen with
art.
So it's, yeah, first off, I'mjust really sorry.
(20:52):
Yeah.
That, that happened
Amy (20:53):
and, and I'm, I'm certainly not the first or last, in fact,
this person had had a reputationof doing that.
So
Oh dang.
Um, that had happened.
Bef it had something similar hadhappened before.
And so, um, and strangelyenough, um, I agreed, I was told
that's a long story.
(21:13):
I won't get into that, but thiswas supposed to be sort of a new
leaf.
And so, um, sadly, I was theperson, and this is not the
first time in my life, I gavepeople many chances to do their
job.
Whether it was a job as a familymember or a, or a friend or even
a spouse, um, or just their job.
And said, okay, sure.
(21:34):
I'll believe in you.
I'll believe in you.
'cause that's what I do.
I believe in people.
And, um, I'm not a fool.
I'm 55 years old.
I won't believe in this personever again.
But, and I won't, and I honestlywon't believe in the publicity
process again until I, unless Ihear it from the, you know, from
the top.
But I also, I will admit, like.
(21:55):
I don't feel like doing thatmany books with that publisher
anymore, which is a shame'causemy favorite editor is there and,
and I'd like, I will be workingwith him.
So I'm not sure how to reconcilethat.
What I've decided to do insteadis pivot and go back to middle
grade, work with David Levitanfor a while.
Go to adult, see where I end upthere.
Just go other places becausethat, that did affect me.
(22:15):
And, and it's funny because yousaying what you just said might
be the first time anybodyactually validated my feelings
outside of my, you know, myagent and editor at the time.
And again, this isn't sometragedy, this is what happens
every day in publishing.
I really want people to hear mesay this.
This happens all the time inpublishing.
This is how it goes.
You are up against a lot ofbooks.
(22:36):
I don't remember how many booksare published a year, but it is
a lot.
And that is, and then, you know,you're competing with, with,
look, the outside world doesn'tknow, by the way, I just wanna
say this, let's just say thisout loud so we can get it outta
that.
Civilians don't know thedifference between this, an
Amazon published book that hasnever had an editor's eyes on
it, a small press or an Amazonbook that has had an editor's
(23:00):
eyes on it, or a book publishedby, you know, they don't know
that Koff has, you know, is atthe top of a heap and holiday
house might be somewhere in themiddle or whatever.
They don't know any of that.
I had a woman the other day,I'm, oh, what's the name of your
book?
And I was like, oh, well there'sa few books.
It was, oh, okay.
Did you, can I get it on Amazon?
(23:21):
That's pretty much what theaverage person thinks.
I hate to say it, but that isyour average Joe.
Right.
And um, actually more like youraverage Joanne.
Because you know, most readers,most readers women buy books.
Yes.
One of my books.
Um, but um, you know, this isnot uncommon.
This is not some tragedy thathappened to me.
This is sort of what happens inthe business.
Now, did I deserve that?
(23:42):
I literally was at that moment,the holder of the Gold Prince
medal from the year before.
Now it was a shared medal andthat was one of the coolest
things about that, thatparticular win.
But that's another story.
I was holding them.
I'm looking at a medal right infront of me.
It is sitting there.
It is a gold medal.
I'm holding that.
And that's what they chose to doto their medal winner.
That makes me wonder about thepublisher as on a whole, um, but
(24:09):
it is, but again, we go back towhat does Amy King write?
What is she good at?
She's good at the weird stuff.
Yo, that's what she's good at.
And wouldn't would, should wehave published that through
adult?
'cause we also were comingthrough that new time, like I
said, that has, that has pivoteditself.
The actual business has pivotedya has pivoted.
So would that have been, youknow, a better space for it?
(24:29):
Maybe.
And, and so, you know, there'sall those questions in there
and, and I'm not traditional andno one can ever make me
traditional either.
So I don't care.
But it did, it did, it broke mein a way that I have yet I.
Clearly to face because you justmade me cry.
Not in a bad way.
Alice (24:51):
Well, I think that, um, the fact that you are multiple
Prince Award winning, not tomention all of the other awards,
the Prince Award just beingspecifically the highest award
in young adult literature.
Alice (2) (25:03):
Yeah.
Alice (25:04):
The fact that you are multiple Prince Award-winning
recently, prince Award-winning,that you've got all of this
evidence to back, that thequality of your books that
you're creating is fantastic.
This is not a meritocracy.
Amy (25:18):
If I was a man, things would be different.
I will say that to thelisteners.
I will also say, um, that, um, Imean if I was a man with a gold
prince in my hand, that would'vebeen a different situation.
You know how I know that?
Have a look at them.
Yeah.
Have a look at what they didafterwards.
Um, and that's how that is.
(25:39):
Um,
Alice (25:40):
can we go punch a wall?
Can we go smash the patriarchy?
I'm so mad right now.
I may look calm, but I'm so madright now.
Amy (25:46):
It is what it is.
It is what it is.
And it's, it's, it's especiallyin children's literature because
oh, men care about kids.
It's like, um, yeah.
Okay.
They're also the only ones wewere, I was just talking the
other day and it was funny'causebecause there was a, there was a
friend of mine in the room who,who would identify with us.
I was like, you know, actuallyit's white.
White guys get to be reallyfunny in children's literature.
(26:08):
And at some reason, like womenare like, no, you have to be
this or that.
And poignant and sweet and all.
I'm like, this isn't like, youdon't make the rules.
I'm funny all the time.
Not only that, the idea that menare funnier than women is
hilarious.
'cause women go through a lotmore crap and that makes us
funnier and that just is what itis.
'cause we have a dark humor.
It's dark when we're with eachother.
That's when you see us alllaughing our asses off.
(26:29):
It's because we just told a jokethat's way funnier than anything
that a guy could say.
But that's another story.
Um, yeah, no, it, it was, it wastragic in its own way.
But at the same time, like, likeI said, it, it probably changed
me and it probably changed my,it changed definitely the
future.
It changed my future.
I, I don't know where I'm, whereI'm going.
I don't know exactly what'shappening really since that
happened.
It, it knocked me off course.
(26:51):
Um, other people's lazinessaffecting, or, or problems,
whatever it is, whatever thatis.
Like, I work so hard.
I work so hard.
Like, um, I just, it was hard,but I, I'm, I'm, I don't know.
(27:14):
It was a message.
Yeah.
Things happened for a reason ina way.
I don't know.
It's a weird thing for someonelike me to say I've been to
things that absolutely had noreason, but, um.
For this, like I said, you know,um, it's hard to try.
And here's another one for you.
Like, and first of all, ifpeople, listeners don't already
know this, there's plenty ofplaces on the internet you can
find out, but the New York Timesbestseller list isn't the best
(27:35):
seller list.
That's actually not a list ofthe books that sold the most
this week.
The New York Times Wish it wasWishes, it was all of us wishes.
I should have been on there, um,I believe three weeks in a row
in 2022.
Um, and I wasn't because, um, Ibelieve the wording was they
like to keep people that peoplerecognize the names on the line,
whatever, excuse I've heard,like 12 excuses.
(27:56):
I know so many people thatdidn't get there.
I know people who didn't getthere because of transphobia,
homophobia, there's a millionprobably Absolutely racism,
probably sexism, probably.
I don't know.
I have no idea.
I don't know what that curatedlist is, but it's not a
bestseller list.
We also have big awards outthere that are actually not as
fairly, uh, adjudicated as wewould think.
Um, which is one of the reasonsI really like those.
(28:17):
A LA awards.
Those committees work theirbutts off and they are.
One of the things I love aboutthe Prince Committee actually,
and the new all of them, all ofthem, oftentimes they'll bring
in translations.
None of us ever heard about Iand, and I love them.
Oh my God.
And then I'm like, I book andthen I read it.
I'm like, oh my God.
It's one of the best books Iever read.
That's why I love, likelibrarians when they're in
charge, they're gonna find,they're gonna look top to bottom
(28:38):
to find out what they think isthe best book, which is really
cool.
Um, but there are some otherawards out there that even
though publishers pay to havetheir work or have their books
adjudicated, um.
Those books are not consideredin, in that.
And um, that was another thing Ilearned during the lifetime of
pick the lock.
Alice (29:00):
Okay.
But just like the levels of, of,of wrongness there, I mean, when
we're talking about paying to beconsidered for award, that's
like a, that's a kind of wormsaren't there, but specifically
to pay, to be considered forthe, the award and then to not
be considered for the award.
Amy (29:15):
Mm-hmm.
It's a, it's a strange one.
So that's why, you know, it, itis, you gotta be strong.
You gotta walk in there and yougotta have the right reason.
And if the right reason is I'mgonna tell the story, I want
people to hear the story, evenif only 10 people hear the
story.
This is, you know, this is howto do it.
Um, you also have to come inwith some skills of your own,
you know?
(29:35):
Um, and that is, that is whereI, uh, I really envy people who
can do TikTok.
Uh, but at the same time,there's so much on TikTok, I
guess.
I don't know.
I can't go there.
I don't even understand it.
I, people send me stuff, I havean account and I'm like, I get
in there and my, my neighbor,she's like, she sent me like 12
videos.
I'm like, I don't even know howto access these videos.
But that's just'cause I, I, I, Igot all full up with tech.
(29:55):
I, I'm just done.
But, um, you know, it's, it's awild world out there, but
writing's always still worth it.
And writing will never not beworth it.
Alice (30:04):
Yeah.
Yes.
Amy (30:05):
Ever.
It's a beautiful thing to do andit's a, it's a wonderful way to
spend your time and your energy.
So,
Alice (30:13):
well, it sounds like you are coming to this.
Just reflection on thatpublishing journey differently
now than you were in Novemberwhen that, or October.
Really, when that last episodewas recorded.
Yeah.
Um, yeah,
Amy (30:28):
I kind of tried not to think in the last six months.
Alice (30:31):
Yeah.
I think that that I, I get that.
That's reasonable.
I understand that.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Um, I am curious.
Okay.
I I, I'll ask the first, likethe question about the past,
'cause that one's probablyeasier to answer.
The question about the futureseems like it doesn't have an
answer yet, probably, but thequestion about the past is, um,
(30:55):
I'm guessing that part of the rereason why you're in the
traditional publishing space ingeneral is because at the time
when you were pitching thosebooks, your original books
before you'd gotten published,when you were getting started,
the roots of small presses and,um, especially self-publishing,
like there were fewer avenueswith fewer weight, with less
(31:16):
weight behind them to go down tobe choosing from a variety of
publishing routes.
So I guess the question here iswhy did you, in, why did, why is
this the journey, the publishingpath that you have been on for
the last, for the kind of theentirety of your, your
publishing life?
Amy (31:32):
I am so glad you asked me this question because after this
conversation, I really hope thatI can say this with as much,
this is the truth for me.
I have never seen another.
Another way to publish, really,unless I was publishing some of
(31:52):
the bigger genre, some of the,some of the more, um,
packageable genres, right?
So thriller romance, um,mystery, um, series, things like
this, you know, things that,that when, when you're
self-publishing, I know a goodfew people who make a lot of
money, self-publishing, and whatthey do is they release two or
three books a year and boom,boom, boom, because they, their,
(32:13):
their readers want the booksright away.
And you don't, you know, it's adifferent, whole different game.
It's a little bit like goingfrom mm, basketball to hockey.
It, it's, it's not quite, no,it's more like basket.
Maybe it's like soccer tohockey.
Um, but, but something likethat.
Anyway, um, for me, yeah, you'reright.
(32:34):
Traditional publishing was theonly way for me to go because
when I was first, you know,doing the querying and all that
stuff, the only way toself-publish was Vanity
Publishing, which was putting ina lot of money, which I didn't
have.
Um, to get a bunch of books thatyou'd basically drive around,
put in the, in the back, in yourtrunk and, and probably with
crappy covers, sari, but true.
And, um, and you had to go toplaces and sell them yourself.
(32:55):
I am not, I don't have thattime.
I have a, I have, you know, Ihad a family, I had young kids,
I had, you know, all thesethings and I didn't have that
time.
But I also, so the number onereason that I publish
traditionally is, isdistribution.
Okay.
Now.
When I started self pu when Istarted publishing, sorry, when
I started traditionallypublishing, we had Borders, we
had books Ail, we had Barnes andNoble.
(33:16):
We know that now Barnes andNoble, Barnes and Noble didn't
buy Amy King books.
Usually they didn't stock a lotof them and, and their orders.
And, and, but, but in the olddays, one of the measures of who
got the best pub, who got thebest publicity and who got the
marketing and stuff, was how,who, how many copies Barnes and
Noble bought.
Well now in children'spublishing, they don't buy
(33:37):
hardcovers, not of middle gradesand not of young adults anymore.
So it's kind of interesting'cause they're doing that for
money reasons, but they're kindof making themselves the, first
of all, they beat out, likeBorders is gone.
Like Amazon's eaten all theseother, you know, box stores now.
Barnes and Noble's, all new oneleft.
And now they have become almostkind of, they've made themselves
weirdly not that important whenit comes to children's
(33:59):
literature because we no longerdepend on their order number to,
to figure out certain stuff.
Now they still do order some,you know, and again, they'll
probably order the, the onesthat you know, the big, you know
the big ones.
Right, right.
Which is cool.
But, um, their whole systemchanged when they were bought
by, I guess it was Waterstonesor whoever, the guy who went
runs Waterstones.
So because of that dis butdistribution is still really
(34:23):
important because, I'm gonna sayit man, there's no more, there's
no more important.
Mechanism in the book businessin this country than independent
booksellers.
Not only are they incrediblehuman beings that are running,
family owned, oftentimesbookstores, um, in random
little, small towns.
The reason I live in this house,in this town is because it has
(34:44):
an independent bookstore.
I moved here because I, I, thesepeople are family to me, right?
Aaron's books is family to me.
If you go on my website, you canbuy any of my books.
I will personalize them.
I will sign them, I will dowhatever you want.
It is just up the street.
I love it.
Um, but independent booksellersto me are it, they're it.
And if you have a self-publishedbook is really hard to go one
(35:08):
place to the other and try andget them to, to stock your book.
I mean, it, it's really, it's alot of work.
Um, so that is the reason Itraditionally publish.
And I'll always traditionallypublish because I did
self-publish a, uh, short storycollection years ago as a, as a
project just to see.
I'm like, well, okay, my name'sgetting big.
I'll put my name on this.
It'll be there, marked on, onAmazon where everybody
(35:28):
apparently buys their books.
Don't please buy them fromAaron's books.
No.
Buy them from independentbooksellers and please stop
downloading them for free.
You're stealing from me and itreally sucks.
Um, and so, um.
Actually, you actually, you'restealing from my children.
You're stealing their collegetuitions, you're stealing their
food.
It really sucks.
It really, really sucks that Ihave to have three other jobs to
be able to afford to write.
(35:48):
And then that kind of stuffhappens to me.
Like, seriously, like, you gottabe, sir.
You gotta be kidding me.
But that's why, um, and smallpresses, like, I, I still
consider because I'm a poet, soI still consider small presses
for things like poetry.
Um, because they have, theirdistribution is specifically for
what they do, right?
So I have a good friend whopublishes a lot of theology, a
(36:10):
lot of really cool theologyessays, a fantastic essayist.
Um, he publishes through a placewhere they dis, you know, they
distribute through, you know, orthey're known for what they do.
However, I've been saying tohim, listen, there are some
really great traditional or, youknow, traditional publishing
directions you could go and youwouldn't have to bust your butt
this much afterward.
(36:30):
You could be concentrating onyour next book.
So that's why it really is.
I still think it's the most, asmuch as much hassle as I've just
sort of described lives withinit, it still is.
It does its job.
It does what it's supposed todo.
And, uh, you know, yeah, it paysits CEOs a lot when in actual
effect it's the editors and the,and the publishers inside those
(36:51):
houses, you know, that really dothe, the bulk of the work.
And actually, you know,honestly, everybody in that
building does a lot of work.
But, um, uh, that's why.
Did that answer the question?
It
Alice (37:02):
does.
It does.
It does.
And I think that the, like.
Galling piece of this is thatultimately the publisher has one
job and the job is to distributeyour books.
And the fact that the, anddistribution and publicity are
not exactly the same, like they,they go hand in hand.
(37:24):
Distribution being like gettingthe book into the store and
publicity being like gettingawareness around the book.
So people go buy it from thestore,
Amy (37:31):
making sure the 40 copies you sent don't get returned to
the warehouse.
Yes.
Alice (37:34):
Right.
That does no one any good.
And then scrapped.
Amy (37:37):
Scrapped.
It counts against me money-wiseand nobody can resell it, which
is also the dumbest practice.
So maybe they need to modernizetheir practice a little bit, but
Alice (37:46):
whatever.
Right.
Talk about like sustainabilityand publishing.
That seems like maybe not thething, um, right.
But.
The fact that the, the, the roleof the publisher in your writing
practice is for them to get yourbooks on the shelves and
hopefully help bring people into sell them.
And they, like, they're notgoing to magically sell
(38:07):
thousands of copies because theyjust like wave a magic wand.
But the fact that they did notdo the things that were their
responsibility to do in the onepart of the process, that is
their responsibility to managelike that.
Amy (38:20):
But that is the most common story you will hear in
traditional publishing.
Yeah.
So I don't wanna make it soundlike that is special.
It's not.
Now, in this particular time itwas particularly special,
meaning I was literally shown athing that was false.
Right?
That is, that's a little bit,whoa.
What's happening in your brain?
I don't know.
But I hope you get, I hopethings are okay.
Um, but on a whole, what youjust described is actually the
(38:45):
typical journey throughtraditional publishing when it
comes to those things that wemight expect that aren't really
what we thought they were.
Alice (38:56):
Yeah,
Amy (38:57):
because what you have, what we didn't talk about are the
salespeople.
Those salespeople go, they go,there are sales reps.
They call their, they call theirpeople, they call the stores.
And so they're like, Hey, youknow, you check out this book.
This is a book you gotta buythis year.
And this is, these are the,these are the unsung heroes of
publishing and nobody even knowsabout them.
You know, there's so many ofthose that I don't know about
(39:17):
that I can't even tell youabout.
Like, there's so many peoplethat make this thing work.
Right?
And so, you know, but what youjust described, I mean, I've yet
to meet an author outside of,you know, the ones that did get
kind of elevated that when thestuff on the back of their arc
on the back of their, you know,their advanced review copy or
advanced reader copy matchedwhat actually happened.
(39:40):
Mm-hmm.
Um, that's very rare that itwould do that.
So I, you know, you have tolearn that earlier on, you know,
the first time, first few timesyou're like, how come this
didn't happen?
Your age's like, oh, honey.
Like, and then, but then, thenyou really learn and, and then
you really realize, like I said,you know, and watching it change
and morph and just watching eventhe human beings inside of the
business, you know, um, howthey're affected by their own
(40:02):
lives.
There's, there's people in therewho, who have lives too, who get
sick, who, you know, who I don'tknow.
I think it's one of those thingswhere I'm glad for my compassion
that I have, but.
You just brought out like 20minutes ago or half an hour ago.
You just brought out the truefeelings that I shoved down
since September when it allhappened.
'cause when it all happened, itwas like, oh, okay, okay.
(40:24):
Action stations, you know, andthen you're in action stations
and then suddenly you'resupposed to be doing three jobs
and because you've,'cause youhad this other side set aside.
Now I'm writing articles at twoo'clock in the morning and I'm
losing sleep and I'm, I can't dothat.
I've had a stroke two years ago.
I have to, I have to take careof myself.
You know, all these differentthings to make up for somebody's
mistake.
And she didn't even care.
You know what I mean?
Like, I don't think she did.
(40:44):
I, I never, I never got anythingfrom her and she never said
that.
And she was just, she seems shestill works there, you know,
still, it's still what it is.
And so it's just sort of like,okay, no one ever copped to
this.
I don't understand it, but Iguess here we go, you know, you
just keep going.
Life isn't fair and Neither'spublishing, nothing's pub,
(41:05):
nothing's fair.
The only thing you can do iswrite the books.
Yeah.
That's it.
Alice (41:10):
So, um, this is, this is not a trick question, I promise.
We'll just see what happens whenI ask this question.
I'm curious.
Okay.
Is there anything that you wouldbe interested in sharing with
our listeners about futurethoughts, publication, roots,
publication, places, pub, maybejust even the books that you're
publishing.
When you look towards thefuture, what do you see?
Amy (41:32):
When I look toward the future, I see me, um, using
what, what I've gained from thelast 15 years of publishing or
more, um, is that I am still alifelong volunteer.
I never run my own nonprofitcalled Gracie's House.
You will see me working it a lotmore.
(41:52):
Um, it is, uh, our mission issafe spaces for L-G-B-T-Q Youth.
Um, I think in the politicalclimate that we're in right now,
it's more important than ever.
Um, we run summer camps, we runart and expression workshops,
um, things like this, and wegive grants to places that do
the same.
Um, you will see me publishing aresistance newspaper, um, if,
(42:14):
uh, if my neurodivergence hasanything to do with it, and I
think it pretty much rules me.
Um, you will see me, um, doingthat, but book-wise, you will
see some middle grades.
You will see some adult work.
Um, and, you know, mostly Iwanna get back to teaching.
I'm about to get, you know, I'm,I'm about to write my
dissertation once this book isoff my desk.
(42:34):
Um, so I'm about to, I'm mean,it's mostly written.
I just have to write like thelast, the end of it, the hardest
part really.
Um, and I'm take the next twomonths and really concentrate on
that.
Um, while I'm also taking careof my, you know, I'm a solo mom,
so I've taking care of my kid,I'm taking care of my mom in a
way too.
Um, and, uh, so, but publishingm you're gonna see probably, um.
(43:01):
A sh an interesting short, um,not short, but shorter, um,
younger Ya from Dutton, I think,um, that I've been working on
thinking it was a middle grade,but it's not.
Um, and then you'll see a fewmiddle grades, you'll see some
adult work.
Um, and I'm not sure after thatI, I have to figure it out.
(43:24):
I mean, I've been painting alot.
I may just give up writing for alittle while and paint if I can
actually make money at it.
Who would know?
I mean, that's anothercrapshoot, right?
It's all a crapshoot.
But for the, for the moment, I'mpretty busy.
I've actually, ive leftsomething else off.
Um, I do a lot of, um, localsuicide education.
I'm hoping to make that morenational to mental health
America, um, so that people canprobably, hopefully drop the
(43:46):
stigma and stop beingjudgemental.
Um, and more understand the factthat we are in the biggest
mental health crisis that thiscountry has ever seen.
Um, not just teen mental health,everybody's mental health, but
especially teen mental health.
Um, but yeah, I think you'll seeme doing the same stuff.
I don't know, I don't think Icould ever give up writing.
It's just, it's like, no, it islike a drug that way.
(44:06):
You can't, you can't give it up.
And I don't, I don't do anyother drugs, but this is the
best one.
I, I mean, I went to art school,so I, this is what I always say
to people, like, this is thebest buzz I ever had.
Writing a book is the best buzzI ever had.
And, and I, I can't not do it.
Even though today I am like, ah,this is slogging through this
manuscript.
But it's just the time.
It's, it's the particular timeof the manuscript.
(44:27):
But yeah, future, you'll see allthose things for me.
Alice (44:30):
Yeah.
And what happens after the wordsget put on the page is a totally
different story, but the act ofputting the words on the page
and figuring out what they meanand how to put them together and
the way that tells the story youwanna tell and carries the
meaning you wanna share, that'salways, always, always valuable.
That's
Amy (44:45):
always the most important thing.
I mean, and if that's, if I can,you know, I once had somebody
say to me, Hey, I wanna talk toyou and we were in a fill
something, I wanna talk to youabout something.
I said, cool.
And then she had published onebook and um, I had talked to her
before she'd written a, like herfirst book.
And she's like, I'm not gettingpublished because of insert
reason here.
And that reason wasn'tnecessarily accurate.
(45:05):
That's how she felt.
And that's cool.
And I'm not gonna take that awayfrom her, but the reason was
just'cause it was her first bookand it probably didn't hit the
mark.
And that's okay.
Um, but it's hard to let go ofthat first book.
I mean, for me it was like, youknow, I mean, I published, I
published my eighth book or myninth book, you know, so I
always feel like, you know,people are like, I should
publish my first book.
I'm like, oh, please.
But anyway, not everything's todo with me, you know?
(45:26):
But she said, oh, we wanna talk.
Okay, cool.
So later in the day she's like,I'm like, Hey man, what did you
wanna talk about?
You know?
And she's like, I need to figureout marketing ideas.
I'm like, oh, well I suck atmarketing and I'm not a
marketer.
I how to do that.
And I was like, but for what?
And she goes, well, for thebook.
And I'm like, but that book cameout two years ago.
And I used to always say to herwhen she was kind of talking
about the first book, you know,like, write the next book.
(45:48):
Don't worry about the firstbook.
If the first book is reallygreat and the reason that you're
saying is, is the reason thatyou're not getting published,
cool.
Then it's really great.
You're gonna get it published,right?
It's gonna happen.
You're, if they're gonna say, doyou have anything else you don't
hear, take this.
And if they like it off they go,you know, but I said, um, you
know, what do you mean for thatbook?
And she was like, yeah, well,I'm trying to, you know, still
make more money off it.
I'm like, no, no.
(46:11):
The way we make more money inthis business is we write the
next book.
And that's the thing.
And, and so, you know, always bewriting the next book, but also
always be somehow making itbeneficial to you.
Yeah.
Catharsis, um, exploration, um,this, this sequel to dig that I
talked about, that's gonna besome interesting exploration of
(46:32):
some stuff that I'm reallyexcited about.
Um, I'm really excited about theone that's, you know, on the
computer already, um, orstarted, you know.
Um, so yeah, I think that's thething.
That's the main thing is thatwriting is really all still all
about you.
It really, it's not about howother people perceive you and
when, and if you get big enoughwhere people per, that's when it
gets scary, like we talkedabout, you know?
(46:52):
Then suddenly it's like.
You know, it's like every wantsa piece of you, you know, I
remember meeting John Green thefirst time and the, the amount
of people I had to peel throughto just say, hi, John.
Thanks for that thing you saidabout my book online.
That's really all I wanted tosay.
And by the time I got to him, hewas so overwhelmed, he could
barely talk to me.
He was like, I gotta get outtathis room.
And I was like, I couldunderstand that.
You know?
(47:13):
So, you know, just remember,like, it's, it's, you do, you,
you define your own, you defineyour career at this point.
So, you know, I'm gonna trypicture books too.
Oh, that's another one.
I got two picture books on the,on the roster for this year.
Fun.
Yeah.
Totally fun.
Alice (47:31):
Yeah.
You define your own career.
I think that is a fantasticpoint for us to bring our
publishing conversation too.
After all of that mess.
You define your own career.
Amy (47:42):
You do.
The things a publisher promisesare unlikely to take place
exactly as described.
Yet you define your own career.
You could write an excellentbook, the Book of your Heart,
worthy of all the awards, andstill not be recognized by
bestseller lists or givenpublicity support from your
(48:04):
publisher.
Yet the most important thing isto tell the story that you truly
want to tell in the way you wantto tell it.
The industry will treat yourbook with the impersonal
carelessness that they wouldtreat any other product yet
writing is always, always worthit.
(48:25):
That's what I'm taking from thisconversation.
I would love to hear what youare taking from it, what stood
out to you, or maybe how youfeel after listening, Because I
had a lot of big feelings forsure, and so did Amy, so I
wouldn't be surprised if thiskind of hit for you as well.
I've opened up the comments onthe blog post for this episode
so you can share and we canchat.
(48:45):
If you'd like to share yourthoughts, go to alice
sudler.com/ 84 and leave acomment.
I'll be reading and replying toeveryone.
And if you'd like to hear morefrom Amy, I have two more
episodes for you.
First, go check out Amy'sconversation with Jenny Nash on
the Am Writing podcast.
They recorded that episode backin October of 2024, just weeks
(49:06):
after the pick the lock pubdate.
so Amy was still very much inthe middle of the launch falling
apart around her.
You'll hear some more detailsabout what happened, and you'll
hear how her perspective hasshifted in the five months
between that episode and whenshe and I recorded our
conversation.
And second, go check out Amy'sepisode about revision here on
your next draft.
She's a master at revisingexcellence novels, and in that
(49:29):
episode she goes behind thescenes and pick the lock and
several of her other books toshare specific editorial changes
that she made to shape them intothe stories she wanted to tell.
Links to both of those episodesare in the show notes.
and if you wanna support Amy anddiscover an excellent novel that
you might not have heard of,pick up a copy of Pick the Lock.
(49:49):
You can order it from Aaron'sbooks, Amy's local bookstore,
and she'll even sign it for you.
You can find that link in theshow notes as well.
Above all, I hope that youboldly write the stories that
are important to you.
Because the most important thingis to tell the story that you
truly want to tell in the waythat you want to tell it.
(50:12):
You define your own career, andwriting is always, always worth
it.
Happy editing.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.