October 9, 2024 • 22 mins
Melissa and Meg Krueger explore the impact of the Paralympics on disability awareness and the importance of adaptive equipment and mindset in outdoor activities. They highlight how community efforts can create inclusive outdoor experiences and emphasize the significance of representation in these activities. The conversation also touches on the pyramid of outdoor engagement and the healing power of nature.
Wilderness Inquiry has been a key partner in promoting accessibility. For over five years, they have collaborated with CNC to bring canoes to our grounds and guide visitors on river outings. These 10-day fall stretches have allowed hundreds to thousands of people to experience the river, furthering our mission to make nature accessible to everyone.
Chapters
00:00 The Impact of the Paralympics on Disability Awareness
02:59 Adaptive Equipment and Mindset in Outdoor Activities
05:47 Creating Community Through Outdoor Engagement
09:13 The Importance of Representation in Outdoor Activities
11:56 The Pyramid of Outdoor Engagement
14:59 The Healing Power of Nature
18:00 Inspiration from Diverse Outdoor Experiences
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
Welcome to Your Place on the River, a podcast brought
to you by Carriage Kia of Woodstock, Georgia, in partnership
with the Chattahoochee Nature Center. Our mission is to connect
people with nature as a private, non-profit. 501 C3 organization,
Cnk thrives thanks to the support of our members, the community,
and listeners like you. Discover more about Chattahoochee Nature Center
(00:22):
at Chat Nature center.org. We'd love to hear your thoughts
on the podcast. Tweet us at WCNC nature using the
hashtag Iptr. And here's your host, Melissa Carter.
S2 (00:34):
Nature is for everybody. That's because everybody belongs. That's a
mantra for wilderness inquiry. Since 1978, they have served more
than half a million individuals from all walks of life,
diverse youth, individuals with differing abilities, and others who face
barriers to use of public lands and waterways not only
in our country but around the world. Meg Krueger is
(00:55):
the programs and Adventures director at Wilderness Inquiry, and she
joins us now to talk about those with disabilities making
the most out of their outdoor adventures. Meg, I know
that in recent months, myself and several friends really got
involved in the Paralympics. That happened. A few, you know,
within the last few months in Paris. And I feel
(01:16):
like this was really the first year that I saw
a lot of sensitivity to those who may have some
physical needs in their life. Do you find that during
this time, like with the Paralympics, you know, or anything
that highlights people that, again, with special needs physically, that
you see an uptick in participation with your organization or
(01:40):
is there no correlation at all?
S3 (01:42):
I think that's a really interesting question. I think the Paralympics,
the the, the media coverage that's been brought to that,
as well as just sort of some social tides changing
and having more foundational language for people with disabilities, be
that a physical disability or an intellectual or cognitive disability.
Just kind of having a greater understanding and more access
(02:07):
to what the actual lives of people look like. That's
happening on Instagram, on TikTok, and then through big events
like the Paralympics, for sure. I think it's it's creating
more understanding. And for wilderness inquiry, we've been working with
groups and individuals with disabilities for a long, long time.
(02:29):
So what we're sort of seeing is in groups of
people without disabilities, understanding more about what we do and
and providing more support and words of encouragement around this
is a really this is a really important and interesting and,
and cool work, when that may have been overlooked a
little bit more before, because it felt like a population
(02:51):
of people with disabilities was a population not integrated with
the rest of society, which just isn't at all true. Right?
S2 (02:59):
Well, I know that anyone who's had any kind of
illness usually says that they feel alone because they sometimes
people around them don't understand them. They can't relate to them,
they feel sorry for them, and they just it's an
isolating feeling. And so I think that, you know, with
wilderness inquiry, someone with disabilities, you have a community. Because
(03:20):
those who I know that have had chronic illnesses, once
they went to organisations for their particular ailment, then they realize,
wait a second, I'm not alone. There's this person, there's
that person. So someone with disabilities who's not sick, it's
just the fact that they may need some, you know,
different equipment in order to do the same thing that
somebody else may not need the equipment for. It can
(03:41):
be very empowering and probably helps them deal with the disability.
If it's something that just recently happened or if it
was a sudden shift in their life.
S3 (03:50):
Absolutely. I think that's right. Our approach is that we
provide adaptive equipment, particularly for we do a lot of
paddling sports. So kayaking, canoeing. We have a North canoe,
which is a 24 foot long ten person canoe. And
that's a great medium for getting lots of people with
(04:13):
lots of different abilities out on a waterway in a
tandem canoe. There's often somebody who has to sit in
the middle. The quote duff and doesn't paddle in our
ten person canoe, everybody can paddle. So we have adaptive
equipment to support any physical disabilities or or if someone
needs a one armed paddle instead of one of our
(04:35):
traditional paddles, we have those too. So some of those
equipment and tools is really helpful. And also, I think
more importantly, is a mindset. Wilderness inquiry is based on
our our origin story is that the Boundary Waters, which
is this protected part of the of Minnesota and Canada.
(04:58):
It's up northern Minnesota right on the the border of
Canada and its U.S. Forest Service land and and protected
non-motorized natural wilderness, and there was legislation in the 1970s
to pave and to motorize big parts of that with
kind of the the idea of making it more accessible
(05:21):
for people with disabilities or people who are older or
because it was the 70s. They also threw women in
there because women need pavement and motorboats for some reason. Um, but.
S2 (05:33):
At the time they wanted to get.
S3 (05:34):
Out wilderness inquiry. What what we did at that time
was take a group of people with and without disabilities
into the wilderness and documented it and submitted that as
testimony to the Minnesota legislature to say you don't need
to always adapt the environment for accommodating different needs. You
(05:56):
need to adapt your approach. You need to adapt your communication.
You need to adapt how you think about it. You
don't always need to adapt the environment. And I think
that's a really important part of of making nature accessible
is it's about how we think about it, not necessarily
what we expect. The same way that we would expect
a an Ada compliant restaurant or a bathroom or something
(06:18):
like that. There's there's other ways to, to work within that,
that and that's been a really critical part of how
we train and our mindset around creating accessibility and inclusivity
in the outdoors.
S2 (06:30):
I never thought of that. I mean, again, I think
that organizations like yours, the importance of making sure that
everybody understands that nature is not just for the quote unquote,
able bodied, everybody's able bodied. Right? I never thought about
how that also must make a community feel. If you know,
it's all you always have to adapt the environment to
(06:51):
that specific group. Whereas understanding that, look, you're not just
limited to the places like that, which is important to
have the Ada legislation therefore makes sure that businesses are
inclusive of everybody, every client, everybody that they've got. But
I never thought about the fact that you don't have
to adapt the environment. You can equip the individual and
(07:14):
that way everything is accessible, not just, again, these certain places.
S3 (07:18):
Yeah, absolutely. Nature can be can be an equalizer in
that way of not everyone is competent and and able
in the outdoors for lots of different reasons. It took
it takes me a long time to remember how to
tie my knots every time I'm on a camping trip,
(07:39):
and when I go with people who know how to
do knots better, I'm like, can you do this? Not
because you're not going to do it better than me,
and I'll go ahead and portage our canoe. Let's just
let's just split up. There's so many parts of being
in the outdoors and skills that come out of that.
When you bring a group of people together with totally
(08:00):
differing abilities and skill sets and knowledges and identities. What
we find is an opportunity for everyone to shine in
different places and support each other throughout the creation of
community within that trip. I think what I love seeing
is more and more media, more and more promotion, more
(08:23):
and more magazines that don't just have a, you know,
stereotypical thin, you know, slender, bearded white man in a flannel,
as always, the representative of the outdoors. There's more and
more that we are actually seeing representation, which is authentic
to reality. And I think that that is a really
(08:44):
important piece. Also, I.
S2 (08:46):
Think for those who are not the straight white men
and in this case bearded with their flannel, you know, on, uh,
and their coffees because they always have a coffee with them. Um,
but I, I think that they may not understand about
representation matters. And we hear that in different communities, but
it is important because there's a lot of personalities that
(09:08):
are not aggressive. They're not the ones who are adventurous initially.
They're not the ones that necessarily may lead the pack.
There's so many people and you have to have leaders
and followers, and there's so many followers who are like,
I don't want to be the first out there. I
need to see something first before I'm comfortable enough to
make that action or take that action to participate. And
so to your point, yes, I mean, it's it's getting better.
(09:31):
It's certainly not there. Because if you are, again, with
the Paralympics not to over expose that as being what
it's about to have disabilities. But I think that for
my group, I saw a lot of people inspired by that.
It's like they it wasn't top of mind if they
didn't have a family member or a loved one who
has a disability. And then they saw it and they
(09:51):
were inspired. And then, you know, that inspiration kind of
wanes back to normal life because television shows like you said,
magazine covers like anything that deals with disabilities or being
out of nature usually does not include someone in a wheelchair.
Someone with braces like it. It usually doesn't do that.
And my favorite image on your website at Wilderness Inquiry.
(10:13):
Org is the man in the wheelchair rock climbing. Mhm.
And I think if you know and it's like oh
I've never thought about that. But yes it's possible. And
for those who are in a wheelchair who may not
think that that's a possibility, if you see it, then
you realize, oh wait, this is a reality that I
can do.
S3 (10:30):
That's that's exactly right. I think that that idea of
representation matters is is so critical. And and I do
love that we are sort of seeing a lot more
of that in beyond just, just what wilderness inquiry is doing.
And I think you make such a great point too,
about that. The exposure and we operate within a structure
(10:53):
called what we call the pyramid of outdoor engagements. We
have these different programs that offer different levels of intensity
on a trip. So we've got day programs where people
are coming out, often in the Big North, canoes with
20 other people for a paddle down the the waterway
(11:13):
or river closest to where they live. I'm, I'm currently
in Saint Paul, Minnesota. We're right on the Mississippi River.
Tomorrow I'm going to go out with a group, and
we'll paddle down the Mississippi River for four hours and
everyone will go home, get back on the bus and
go home and have a lovely day. And that's a spark.
It's one of the ways to say, all right, let's demystify.
(11:35):
Let's take some of the fear or anxiety or unknown
out of water, out of paddle sport, out of just
being in, you know, urban but still wilderness. And then
what happens after that if you if you liked it,
if it if it, you know, created that little spark,
(11:55):
then there's an opportunity to go on a camping trip.
We call them near nature camping trips. So somewhere within
an hour or two of where you live. A state park?
A county park. A city park that allows camping. Lots
of places where there's amenities. Running water. But you are
sleeping in a tent and it's for a night or two.
And then from there, there's an opportunity to come on
(12:18):
what we call an extended adventure. So something that's three
or 4 or 5 nights long could be in a
national park like Yellowstone or up in the Boundary Waters.
And that is just it's a further engagement and a
deeper engagement in the outdoors. And people can plug in
(12:39):
at any participants at Wilderness Inquiry can plug in at
any level of that outdoor, um, pyramid of of pyramid
of outdoor engagement. But what's important is having the option
to be able to to identify where are you, what's
your comfort level and where's the place that we can
support you best. And then give that opportunity so that
(13:01):
the the next thing can happen. And if they felt
really excited about it, there's an opportunity to keep going
and to do more.
S2 (13:08):
There are so many trips though. I mean, you mentioned
where you are. You gave some examples, but you you
organized trips around the world, right? Yeah.
S3 (13:16):
Yes, we sure do.
S2 (13:17):
I mean, so I want to go to New Zealand.
I want to go to Patagonia. I want to go
to Iceland. So again, it's these possibilities that for those
who feel somewhat disenfranchised, I'm not saying that everybody does,
but a lot of times I know that there is
that 1 or 2 individuals who just are, um, you know,
not in a good place, right, mentally because of whatever's
(13:39):
going on. And I think that if you realize, hey, look,
wilderness inquiry will take you to Iceland, you can go
to Belize, you can go to or go to Utah.
I mean, you can do. There's so much to do
that you hear other people potentially doing. Maybe not an
outdoor adventure, but still, I think that it's just important
to understand accessibility, inclusivity and the fact that Meg, you
(14:02):
and your team make sure that everybody feels like, hey,
you're capable of doing this, and we're going to show
you how.
S3 (14:07):
Absolutely, absolutely. That's that is that's what it's all about.
And it's about that communication. It's about asking questions. It's
about creating trust and finding that space within the planning process.
And then on the trip itself, where there's an opportunity
to to just say, here's what I need. And that's
healthy for all of us. It's healthy for all of
(14:29):
us to say that this this is where this is
where my vulnerability is showing up. This is where my
strength is showing up. This is where my learning edge
is showing up. And and we get there faster. In
my experience, we get there faster experiences where there's some
newness for everybody. And a trip to New Zealand. Yeah,
(14:49):
there's a lot of newness there for everybody. A trip
up to the Boundary Waters, same thing. So the kind
of environment of a camping adventure or of an outdoor
adjacent adventure really is conducive to that kind of community
building that happens within those groups. And then a lot
of learning also from, from everybody and and for everybody.
S2 (15:10):
So, Meg, before I let you go, tell us how
people can get involved with wilderness inquiry. And also I
want to hear from you because you do this for
a living and you do this every day. Why nature
is so important for people to really take advantage of
and the healing properties of it. Absolutely.
S3 (15:27):
Well, we have our 2025 trips are live on our website.
It is Wilderness Inquiry. Org and you can find a
trip or find an itinerary. And we are always happy
to receive inquiries about I'd like to go here or
how accessible is is this trip and would you consider
(15:48):
going here all of that? We love interacting so. So
please reach out. And I just I think there is
mounting evidence that the of the the healing, the wellness,
the health benefits of time spent outdoors. We see that
in the with the youth that we work with. We
(16:09):
see it in the evaluations of the kind of social
emotional growth that can come from trying something new that
feels risky or scary in some way, and feeling supported
through that experience and coming out the other side. That's
a critical piece of human development that we don't always
attend to as adults, and Wilderness inquiry provides an opportunity
(16:34):
to slow down, to touch base, and to learn a
lot about yourself and about other people in beautiful, beautiful settings,
beautiful nature settings. I just I can't speak highly enough
about time spent in nature. Even a half a day,
even ten minutes can can certainly make a difference. And
(16:56):
and let alone, you know, 5 or 6 days out,
out in the wilderness, Although I have family members who
will hear this and go, no, Meg, not for me.
And that's okay too.
S2 (17:06):
I've got friends who swear that they never want to
go camping, never want to do any of this stuff.
But it's almost like. But there's a reason, I think
as human beings, we're drawn to nature for a reason.
We're part of nature. Right? And there's a reason why
you want to go out on the back deck for
a second. There's a reason you want to go sit
out on the front stoop, or you want to go
take a walk, or you want to be outside. And my,
(17:27):
you know, the friends that I have that don't want
to go camping are those people who love to take
walks and to be outside. So it's like, well, if
you had a bad camping experience, where it come when
we're talking about equipment and putting it up and setting
it up, and your dad made you do this and
you know what it's like. That's not nature, right? Nature
is something completely different. And you can reintroduce yourself to that,
(17:48):
because that's what I think is just, you know, a
family trip where as a kid you don't appreciate what
you're doing. And then when you're an adult like, oh,
I wish I could go camping again like that or
not for my friend.
S3 (17:59):
Oh, I love, I love that, I love the, I
love the like. Let's move away from that. There is
a hierarchy in outdoor experiences, you know? Right? Summiting a
fourteener in Colorado is remarkable and amazing. But going out
on a walk in your neighborhood and noticing the trees
(18:19):
and spending time outside, the benefits of that are the same.
And so I love the idea of just saying we
don't need to have a hierarchy or or huge goals
attached to outdoor engagement. It's being outside that is the
the journey and the destination of of that. Any, any
time spent outside can be so beneficial to us.
S2 (18:42):
Well, and I think to Meg, I am a mother
of a young son. And it's one of those things
where you have to, to me kind of look at youth,
look at again at animals and nature and just kind
of remember who you are. Because I think the older
we get, the more curmudgeon we might become. And he
when it rains, the first thing he wants to do
is go out and run in the rain. Right. I
(19:04):
remember as a kid going out in the front yard
and just laying in the grass, just to look up
at the clouds, and it's like, when is the last
time as an adult, as an adult, have I ever
just said, you know what, I'm going to lay down
and look at the clouds? No. And it's like, well,
why not? And so again, those things because it was,
like you said, healing, relaxing. It's it's, you know, just
kind of resetting yourself. And and I think that sometimes
(19:27):
as adults, we forget to plug back into what, you know,
our natural state is, which is to be outside and
to be part of everything. And so I appreciate the
fact that you and your team make sure everybody gets
a chance to be outside and do things, and if
they want to be adventurous outside, they get a chance
to do it as opposed to just leaving that for
everybody else and leaving them behind. What is the most
(19:51):
inspirational story you have with your job?
S3 (19:55):
I don't know that I have a, you know, a
singular example, but I think what inspires me about this work,
and about the compassion and talent and skill of our
outdoor staff team and the differences of our participants, is
(20:15):
that there's often something for everybody. And I just I
think that that that's so important for, for, for us
all to see that we've got trips where there will
be people who are deaf or deaf, blind who use
a wheelchair, who have, you know, a neurodiverse brain. All
(20:38):
of those different types come in together on a singular trip,
and that creates an opportunity for the same thing that
would happen on a trip with a different population of people.
That sort of neutralizing or equalizing aspect of nature is
like a really is just such a really critical part
of of what we do. And I'm sorry, I can't
(21:00):
think of, of one single example, but it just feels
like the kind of the. When people come together in
the outdoors of different abilities. It can be so inspiring
and and heartening and and energizing in that way.
S2 (21:15):
Well, Meg, thank you so much for being part of
the podcast and best of luck on your future journeys.
Thank you so.
S3 (21:20):
Much. Appreciate it.
S2 (21:21):
Wilderness inquiry host trips around the world and not only
for those with disabilities. Also the LGBTQ+ community, the neurodiverse community,
the black, indigenous and person of color, community and women.
To find out more, go to Wilderness Inquiry. Org.
S1 (21:37):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Your Place on
the River, brought to you by carriage Kia of Woodstock, Georgia,
in partnership with the Chattahoochee Nature Center. Remember to like
and subscribe to your place on the river wherever you
get your podcasts. Visit Nature center.org to stay updated on
all the happenings at the Nature Center.
Welcome to Your Place on the River, a podcast brought
to you by Carriage Kia of Woodstock, Georgia, in partnership
with the Chattahoochee Nature Center. Our mission is to connect
people with nature as a private, non-profit. 501 C3 organization,
Cnk thrives thanks to the support of our members, the community,
and listeners like you. Discover more about Chattahoochee Nature Center
(00:22):
at Chat Nature center.org. We'd love to hear your thoughts
on the podcast. Tweet us at WCNC nature using the
hashtag Iptr. And here's your host, Melissa Carter.
S2 (00:34):
Nature is for everybody. That's because everybody belongs. That's a
mantra for wilderness inquiry. Since 1978, they have served more
than half a million individuals from all walks of life,
diverse youth, individuals with differing abilities, and others who face
barriers to use of public lands and waterways not only
in our country but around the world. Meg Krueger is
(00:55):
the programs and Adventures director at Wilderness Inquiry, and she
joins us now to talk about those with disabilities making
the most out of their outdoor adventures. Meg, I know
that in recent months, myself and several friends really got
involved in the Paralympics. That happened. A few, you know,
within the last few months in Paris. And I feel
(01:16):
like this was really the first year that I saw
a lot of sensitivity to those who may have some
physical needs in their life. Do you find that during
this time, like with the Paralympics, you know, or anything
that highlights people that, again, with special needs physically, that
you see an uptick in participation with your organization or
(01:40):
is there no correlation at all?
S3 (01:42):
I think that's a really interesting question. I think the Paralympics,
the the, the media coverage that's been brought to that,
as well as just sort of some social tides changing
and having more foundational language for people with disabilities, be
that a physical disability or an intellectual or cognitive disability.
Just kind of having a greater understanding and more access
(02:07):
to what the actual lives of people look like. That's
happening on Instagram, on TikTok, and then through big events
like the Paralympics, for sure. I think it's it's creating
more understanding. And for wilderness inquiry, we've been working with
groups and individuals with disabilities for a long, long time.
(02:29):
So what we're sort of seeing is in groups of
people without disabilities, understanding more about what we do and
and providing more support and words of encouragement around this
is a really this is a really important and interesting and,
and cool work, when that may have been overlooked a
little bit more before, because it felt like a population
(02:51):
of people with disabilities was a population not integrated with
the rest of society, which just isn't at all true. Right?
S2 (02:59):
Well, I know that anyone who's had any kind of
illness usually says that they feel alone because they sometimes
people around them don't understand them. They can't relate to them,
they feel sorry for them, and they just it's an
isolating feeling. And so I think that, you know, with
wilderness inquiry, someone with disabilities, you have a community. Because
(03:20):
those who I know that have had chronic illnesses, once
they went to organisations for their particular ailment, then they realize,
wait a second, I'm not alone. There's this person, there's
that person. So someone with disabilities who's not sick, it's
just the fact that they may need some, you know,
different equipment in order to do the same thing that
somebody else may not need the equipment for. It can
(03:41):
be very empowering and probably helps them deal with the disability.
If it's something that just recently happened or if it
was a sudden shift in their life.
S3 (03:50):
Absolutely. I think that's right. Our approach is that we
provide adaptive equipment, particularly for we do a lot of
paddling sports. So kayaking, canoeing. We have a North canoe,
which is a 24 foot long ten person canoe. And
that's a great medium for getting lots of people with
(04:13):
lots of different abilities out on a waterway in a
tandem canoe. There's often somebody who has to sit in
the middle. The quote duff and doesn't paddle in our
ten person canoe, everybody can paddle. So we have adaptive
equipment to support any physical disabilities or or if someone
needs a one armed paddle instead of one of our
(04:35):
traditional paddles, we have those too. So some of those
equipment and tools is really helpful. And also, I think
more importantly, is a mindset. Wilderness inquiry is based on
our our origin story is that the Boundary Waters, which
is this protected part of the of Minnesota and Canada.
(04:58):
It's up northern Minnesota right on the the border of
Canada and its U.S. Forest Service land and and protected
non-motorized natural wilderness, and there was legislation in the 1970s
to pave and to motorize big parts of that with
kind of the the idea of making it more accessible
(05:21):
for people with disabilities or people who are older or
because it was the 70s. They also threw women in
there because women need pavement and motorboats for some reason. Um, but.
S2 (05:33):
At the time they wanted to get.
S3 (05:34):
Out wilderness inquiry. What what we did at that time
was take a group of people with and without disabilities
into the wilderness and documented it and submitted that as
testimony to the Minnesota legislature to say you don't need
to always adapt the environment for accommodating different needs. You
(05:56):
need to adapt your approach. You need to adapt your communication.
You need to adapt how you think about it. You
don't always need to adapt the environment. And I think
that's a really important part of of making nature accessible
is it's about how we think about it, not necessarily
what we expect. The same way that we would expect
a an Ada compliant restaurant or a bathroom or something
(06:18):
like that. There's there's other ways to, to work within that,
that and that's been a really critical part of how
we train and our mindset around creating accessibility and inclusivity
in the outdoors.
S2 (06:30):
I never thought of that. I mean, again, I think
that organizations like yours, the importance of making sure that
everybody understands that nature is not just for the quote unquote,
able bodied, everybody's able bodied. Right? I never thought about
how that also must make a community feel. If you know,
it's all you always have to adapt the environment to
(06:51):
that specific group. Whereas understanding that, look, you're not just
limited to the places like that, which is important to
have the Ada legislation therefore makes sure that businesses are
inclusive of everybody, every client, everybody that they've got. But
I never thought about the fact that you don't have
to adapt the environment. You can equip the individual and
(07:14):
that way everything is accessible, not just, again, these certain places.
S3 (07:18):
Yeah, absolutely. Nature can be can be an equalizer in
that way of not everyone is competent and and able
in the outdoors for lots of different reasons. It took
it takes me a long time to remember how to
tie my knots every time I'm on a camping trip,
(07:39):
and when I go with people who know how to
do knots better, I'm like, can you do this? Not
because you're not going to do it better than me,
and I'll go ahead and portage our canoe. Let's just
let's just split up. There's so many parts of being
in the outdoors and skills that come out of that.
When you bring a group of people together with totally
(08:00):
differing abilities and skill sets and knowledges and identities. What
we find is an opportunity for everyone to shine in
different places and support each other throughout the creation of
community within that trip. I think what I love seeing
is more and more media, more and more promotion, more
(08:23):
and more magazines that don't just have a, you know,
stereotypical thin, you know, slender, bearded white man in a flannel,
as always, the representative of the outdoors. There's more and
more that we are actually seeing representation, which is authentic
to reality. And I think that that is a really
(08:44):
important piece. Also, I.
S2 (08:46):
Think for those who are not the straight white men
and in this case bearded with their flannel, you know, on, uh,
and their coffees because they always have a coffee with them. Um,
but I, I think that they may not understand about
representation matters. And we hear that in different communities, but
it is important because there's a lot of personalities that
(09:08):
are not aggressive. They're not the ones who are adventurous initially.
They're not the ones that necessarily may lead the pack.
There's so many people and you have to have leaders
and followers, and there's so many followers who are like,
I don't want to be the first out there. I
need to see something first before I'm comfortable enough to
make that action or take that action to participate. And
so to your point, yes, I mean, it's it's getting better.
(09:31):
It's certainly not there. Because if you are, again, with
the Paralympics not to over expose that as being what
it's about to have disabilities. But I think that for
my group, I saw a lot of people inspired by that.
It's like they it wasn't top of mind if they
didn't have a family member or a loved one who
has a disability. And then they saw it and they
(09:51):
were inspired. And then, you know, that inspiration kind of
wanes back to normal life because television shows like you said,
magazine covers like anything that deals with disabilities or being
out of nature usually does not include someone in a wheelchair.
Someone with braces like it. It usually doesn't do that.
And my favorite image on your website at Wilderness Inquiry.
(10:13):
Org is the man in the wheelchair rock climbing. Mhm.
And I think if you know and it's like oh
I've never thought about that. But yes it's possible. And
for those who are in a wheelchair who may not
think that that's a possibility, if you see it, then
you realize, oh wait, this is a reality that I
can do.
S3 (10:30):
That's that's exactly right. I think that that idea of
representation matters is is so critical. And and I do
love that we are sort of seeing a lot more
of that in beyond just, just what wilderness inquiry is doing.
And I think you make such a great point too,
about that. The exposure and we operate within a structure
(10:53):
called what we call the pyramid of outdoor engagements. We
have these different programs that offer different levels of intensity
on a trip. So we've got day programs where people
are coming out, often in the Big North, canoes with
20 other people for a paddle down the the waterway
(11:13):
or river closest to where they live. I'm, I'm currently
in Saint Paul, Minnesota. We're right on the Mississippi River.
Tomorrow I'm going to go out with a group, and
we'll paddle down the Mississippi River for four hours and
everyone will go home, get back on the bus and
go home and have a lovely day. And that's a spark.
It's one of the ways to say, all right, let's demystify.
(11:35):
Let's take some of the fear or anxiety or unknown
out of water, out of paddle sport, out of just
being in, you know, urban but still wilderness. And then
what happens after that if you if you liked it,
if it if it, you know, created that little spark,
(11:55):
then there's an opportunity to go on a camping trip.
We call them near nature camping trips. So somewhere within
an hour or two of where you live. A state park?
A county park. A city park that allows camping. Lots
of places where there's amenities. Running water. But you are
sleeping in a tent and it's for a night or two.
And then from there, there's an opportunity to come on
(12:18):
what we call an extended adventure. So something that's three
or 4 or 5 nights long could be in a
national park like Yellowstone or up in the Boundary Waters.
And that is just it's a further engagement and a
deeper engagement in the outdoors. And people can plug in
(12:39):
at any participants at Wilderness Inquiry can plug in at
any level of that outdoor, um, pyramid of of pyramid
of outdoor engagement. But what's important is having the option
to be able to to identify where are you, what's
your comfort level and where's the place that we can
support you best. And then give that opportunity so that
(13:01):
the the next thing can happen. And if they felt
really excited about it, there's an opportunity to keep going
and to do more.
S2 (13:08):
There are so many trips though. I mean, you mentioned
where you are. You gave some examples, but you you
organized trips around the world, right? Yeah.
S3 (13:16):
Yes, we sure do.
S2 (13:17):
I mean, so I want to go to New Zealand.
I want to go to Patagonia. I want to go
to Iceland. So again, it's these possibilities that for those
who feel somewhat disenfranchised, I'm not saying that everybody does,
but a lot of times I know that there is
that 1 or 2 individuals who just are, um, you know,
not in a good place, right, mentally because of whatever's
(13:39):
going on. And I think that if you realize, hey, look,
wilderness inquiry will take you to Iceland, you can go
to Belize, you can go to or go to Utah.
I mean, you can do. There's so much to do
that you hear other people potentially doing. Maybe not an
outdoor adventure, but still, I think that it's just important
to understand accessibility, inclusivity and the fact that Meg, you
(14:02):
and your team make sure that everybody feels like, hey,
you're capable of doing this, and we're going to show
you how.
S3 (14:07):
Absolutely, absolutely. That's that is that's what it's all about.
And it's about that communication. It's about asking questions. It's
about creating trust and finding that space within the planning process.
And then on the trip itself, where there's an opportunity
to to just say, here's what I need. And that's
healthy for all of us. It's healthy for all of
(14:29):
us to say that this this is where this is
where my vulnerability is showing up. This is where my
strength is showing up. This is where my learning edge
is showing up. And and we get there faster. In
my experience, we get there faster experiences where there's some
newness for everybody. And a trip to New Zealand. Yeah,
(14:49):
there's a lot of newness there for everybody. A trip
up to the Boundary Waters, same thing. So the kind
of environment of a camping adventure or of an outdoor
adjacent adventure really is conducive to that kind of community
building that happens within those groups. And then a lot
of learning also from, from everybody and and for everybody.
S2 (15:10):
So, Meg, before I let you go, tell us how
people can get involved with wilderness inquiry. And also I
want to hear from you because you do this for
a living and you do this every day. Why nature
is so important for people to really take advantage of
and the healing properties of it. Absolutely.
S3 (15:27):
Well, we have our 2025 trips are live on our website.
It is Wilderness Inquiry. Org and you can find a
trip or find an itinerary. And we are always happy
to receive inquiries about I'd like to go here or
how accessible is is this trip and would you consider
(15:48):
going here all of that? We love interacting so. So
please reach out. And I just I think there is
mounting evidence that the of the the healing, the wellness,
the health benefits of time spent outdoors. We see that
in the with the youth that we work with. We
(16:09):
see it in the evaluations of the kind of social
emotional growth that can come from trying something new that
feels risky or scary in some way, and feeling supported
through that experience and coming out the other side. That's
a critical piece of human development that we don't always
attend to as adults, and Wilderness inquiry provides an opportunity
(16:34):
to slow down, to touch base, and to learn a
lot about yourself and about other people in beautiful, beautiful settings,
beautiful nature settings. I just I can't speak highly enough
about time spent in nature. Even a half a day,
even ten minutes can can certainly make a difference. And
(16:56):
and let alone, you know, 5 or 6 days out,
out in the wilderness, Although I have family members who
will hear this and go, no, Meg, not for me.
And that's okay too.
S2 (17:06):
I've got friends who swear that they never want to
go camping, never want to do any of this stuff.
But it's almost like. But there's a reason, I think
as human beings, we're drawn to nature for a reason.
We're part of nature. Right? And there's a reason why
you want to go out on the back deck for
a second. There's a reason you want to go sit
out on the front stoop, or you want to go
take a walk, or you want to be outside. And my,
(17:27):
you know, the friends that I have that don't want
to go camping are those people who love to take
walks and to be outside. So it's like, well, if
you had a bad camping experience, where it come when
we're talking about equipment and putting it up and setting
it up, and your dad made you do this and
you know what it's like. That's not nature, right? Nature
is something completely different. And you can reintroduce yourself to that,
(17:48):
because that's what I think is just, you know, a
family trip where as a kid you don't appreciate what
you're doing. And then when you're an adult like, oh,
I wish I could go camping again like that or
not for my friend.
S3 (17:59):
Oh, I love, I love that, I love the, I
love the like. Let's move away from that. There is
a hierarchy in outdoor experiences, you know? Right? Summiting a
fourteener in Colorado is remarkable and amazing. But going out
on a walk in your neighborhood and noticing the trees
(18:19):
and spending time outside, the benefits of that are the same.
And so I love the idea of just saying we
don't need to have a hierarchy or or huge goals
attached to outdoor engagement. It's being outside that is the
the journey and the destination of of that. Any, any
time spent outside can be so beneficial to us.
S2 (18:42):
Well, and I think to Meg, I am a mother
of a young son. And it's one of those things
where you have to, to me kind of look at youth,
look at again at animals and nature and just kind
of remember who you are. Because I think the older
we get, the more curmudgeon we might become. And he
when it rains, the first thing he wants to do
is go out and run in the rain. Right. I
(19:04):
remember as a kid going out in the front yard
and just laying in the grass, just to look up
at the clouds, and it's like, when is the last
time as an adult, as an adult, have I ever
just said, you know what, I'm going to lay down
and look at the clouds? No. And it's like, well,
why not? And so again, those things because it was,
like you said, healing, relaxing. It's it's, you know, just
kind of resetting yourself. And and I think that sometimes
(19:27):
as adults, we forget to plug back into what, you know,
our natural state is, which is to be outside and
to be part of everything. And so I appreciate the
fact that you and your team make sure everybody gets
a chance to be outside and do things, and if
they want to be adventurous outside, they get a chance
to do it as opposed to just leaving that for
everybody else and leaving them behind. What is the most
(19:51):
inspirational story you have with your job?
S3 (19:55):
I don't know that I have a, you know, a
singular example, but I think what inspires me about this work,
and about the compassion and talent and skill of our
outdoor staff team and the differences of our participants, is
(20:15):
that there's often something for everybody. And I just I
think that that that's so important for, for, for us
all to see that we've got trips where there will
be people who are deaf or deaf, blind who use
a wheelchair, who have, you know, a neurodiverse brain. All
(20:38):
of those different types come in together on a singular trip,
and that creates an opportunity for the same thing that
would happen on a trip with a different population of people.
That sort of neutralizing or equalizing aspect of nature is
like a really is just such a really critical part
of of what we do. And I'm sorry, I can't
(21:00):
think of, of one single example, but it just feels
like the kind of the. When people come together in
the outdoors of different abilities. It can be so inspiring
and and heartening and and energizing in that way.
S2 (21:15):
Well, Meg, thank you so much for being part of
the podcast and best of luck on your future journeys.
Thank you so.
S3 (21:20):
Much. Appreciate it.
S2 (21:21):
Wilderness inquiry host trips around the world and not only
for those with disabilities. Also the LGBTQ+ community, the neurodiverse community,
the black, indigenous and person of color, community and women.
To find out more, go to Wilderness Inquiry. Org.
S1 (21:37):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Your Place on
the River, brought to you by carriage Kia of Woodstock, Georgia,
in partnership with the Chattahoochee Nature Center. Remember to like
and subscribe to your place on the river wherever you
get your podcasts. Visit Nature center.org to stay updated on
all the happenings at the Nature Center.
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