Sarah Lyons Fleming - Until the End of the World | Zombie Book Club Ep 121 - Zombie Book Club

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:26):
Oh fuck, I'm in trouble.
I'm Dan, and when I'm notimmersing myself in a world I
simply describe as Little Housein the Prairie, but with
zombies, I'm writing a bookabout a zombie outbreak that
starts in New York City, as faras anyone knows.
And those in power are usingmillions of reanimated corpses
as a moat to keep anyone fromescaping the safe zone so they

(00:47):
can exploit the survivor's laborand maintain systems of
oppression and keep the wealthysafe from the horrors of the
apocalypse.
Sounds like regular life.

SPEAKER_03 (00:55):
And I think are you sure that's a book in fiction or
I do a different pitch everyepisode.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Yeah.
I'm Leah, and our guest today,whose voice you just heard, is
such an incredible storytellerthat I very accidentally started
with the last book in herfour-book series until the end
of the world.
I was so pulled into the storyand the characters that I
honestly didn't notice until Danlet me know because I was
telling him about where I was inthe book.

(01:23):
Um the only thing that was maybea clue that I didn't pick up on
is that it took me a fewchapters to figure out what a
luxer was.
Hint for those who may have notwho may have not read this
guest's work.
It's a zombie, guys.
Uh so yeah, that's why Dan saysread them in order.
But I'm saying you couldactually pick up the very last
book and still have a greattime.

(01:43):
I was so upset.
It was devastated.
Look on his face.
What book was that?
Um All the Stars in the Sky.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53):
Because some people will read the um the novella,
um, So Long Lollipops that comesafter book one.
They read it last when it'sreally 1.5, but Amazon doesn't
let you say a book is 1.5.
Really?
Um yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
It all has to be they don't.
Uh yeah.
So um, yeah.

(02:15):
And then it was free on Audiblefor a long time.
So people would start with that,and it's just full of spoilers
for book one.
But a lot of them are like,well, it didn't stop me.
I said, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Well, I always go to the list of books in the series
to make sure I'm reading thecorrect ones in the correct
order.
I didn't know that existed untilthis experience.
So I'm learning.
Uh, we release episodes everySunday on all platforms.
So subscribe.
Is that a typo?
It actually says subscribe.

SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
No, I didn't want to confuse Sarah with our weird
subscribing jokes.
We're gonna find I'm upset.

SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Today's guest is Sarah Lyons Fleming, the author
of multiple series set in thesame universe and timeline among
different groups of survivors.
Uh she's written these are theseries that she's written.
Uh Until the End of the World.
We just mentioned that.
There's four books in thatseries.
There's the City series, whichhas three books, Cascadia, which

(03:12):
has four books, for a grandtotal of eleven books, I
believe, if my math is mathing.
Um I would say that her novelsare a blend of cozy, small town
camaraderie and the make do ordie ethos of classical frontier
tales with the chaoticsurvivalist thrills of zombie
fiction.
She populates her stories withcharacters of very cultural

(03:34):
backgrounds, explores powerdynamics, and foregrounds
marginal voices, even as thedead shuffle around them.
Sarah Lyons Fleming is asocially awkward, wannabe
prepper, and a lover of anythingapocalyptic.
Besides an unhealthy obsessionwith home canned food, foraging,
bug-out bag equipment.

(03:55):
She loves books, making artsystuff.
And uh laughing her arse off,which is her language.
I don't we don't have to censorourselves.
It's okay.
I did use the F.

SPEAKER_02 (04:08):
Well, I that I have that because you know you can't
put it everywhere.
So that's just the general, butoh I curse like a sailor, so if
we can curse, man, forget it.
Yeah.
Please do.

SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Yeah.
Um born and raised in Brooklyn,New York, she now lives in
Oregon with her family.
And in her opinion, not nearlyenough supplies for the zombie
apocalypse, but she's working onit.
Thanks, Sarah Lyons Fleming, forjoining us on our podcast.
Um, this I've I'm very excitedfor this interview.

SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Not to make it awkward or anything, but this is
sort of a dream come true.

SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
Um we have some icebreaker questions, and I hope
you're ready.
Um of these we ask everybody.

SPEAKER_04 (04:51):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (04:52):
I I secretly wonder if people are getting sick of
hearing these questions, but Ilove the answers that we get for
them.
So you have a choice, Sarah.
You get to choose.
And uh keep in mind, this is adecision you're making for the
entire world at this point.
You can choose whether to work a40-hour work week or to be in

(05:13):
the zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
It depends on what my work is.
If I get to write, then hey, I'mcool.
If um I have to go to an office,then F that, I want the zombie
apocalypse.
And um kind of right now, I'mjust really wanting the zombie
apocalypse in general.
So I feel yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
What's the pull to the zombie apocalypse in this
moment?

SPEAKER_02 (05:37):
Um I guess be easier to kill a lot of people, you
know.

SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
You know, I I sometimes think that like if we
have to choose so many people,if we have to choose our
apocalypse, like we're facing somany apocalypses, and I feel
like the most humane is the onewhere reanimated corpses come
back to life and eat everybody.

SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
I think that's yeah, I agree.
I agree.
And you know, in that situation,it's just kind of like um, you
know, survival.
Like, I don't want to hear aboutyour bullshit.
Like, either you're gonna benice and you're gonna survive
with us and help, or you know,get eaten.
I don't care.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
Those neighbors that we will not name that we were
talking about before we startedrecording would be an example.
We think all the time about ourone neighbor, and it's like, you
know, if this was a zombieapocalypse, I think we'd have
kicked her out.

SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
She's like, but I live here, that's my house.
It's like, get out.
Get out.

SPEAKER_03 (06:35):
Uh not anymore.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
So you get your you get your zombie apocalypse, just
like you always wanted umeveryone in the world is dead
except for uh a small handful ofpeople out there.
And you get to choose what'swhat's your weapon of choice?

SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
So I've thought about this a whole bunch because
my characters have thought aboutit a lot.
And um, at least in my books,it's like in some books, people
are just ramming knives throughskulls.
And I'm like, dude, I'd neverget a knife through a skull.
Um you know, I don't think mostpeople would.
They're hard for a reason.
So um they've played withvarious things, and um, one of

(07:14):
my characters, Sylvie, loveslike chisel, screwdriver,
sharpened, you know, you get itright into eyes and up under
chins and brainstems and thingslike that.
Um, and then I have anothercharacter who has a war hammer.
And in looking at war hammers,and then seeing that some have a
spike on the end of it, like soyou've got the like hammer on

(07:35):
one side, you've got like theaxey hook thing on the other,
spiky thing on the other, andthen you have a spike like on
the front that you could use,you know, horizontally.
I feel like that's gonna be myweapon because you've got the
blunt force, you've got thepokey, you've got the axe thing.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
It's like the Swiss Army knife of weapons.

SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
It is, it is, I know.

SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
And it's designed for bashing skulls, you know?
It is.
Where do you find a war hammerin the apocalypse?
Do you have to make one?

SPEAKER_02 (08:04):
Good idea.
So I do have people in my bookswho, you know, make things.
So, um, and that's gonna come inmore in this the last series
that's not done yet, theCascadia series.
Like one of them, this uh womanDaisy, she's like she built
bikes before all of this.
So she's like, she welds, sheknows how to do things like
that.

SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
So yeah.
I love Daisy already from bikebuilding to war hammerers.
That's a great character indevelopment.

SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
Daisy is one of my faves for exactly that reason.
Because I I feel like that'd bemy role in the apocalypse is
just like smushing wet metaltogether and making dangerous
things out of it.

SPEAKER_03 (08:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
You're on my team.
Something that somebody pointedout to me uh not long ago, I
feel like, is how like you know,there's there's a lot of choices
when you when it comes to likechoosing your weapon.
And there's a lot of really goodchoices, but uh anything with a
blade requires resharpening.
Whereas a hammer never needs tobe resharpened.
It only becomes more of a hammerthe more that you use it.

(09:06):
That is true.

SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 (09:08):
Yeah.
So in in this apocalypse, youhave stumbled upon uh a
warehouse that promises aunlimited supply of a shelf
stable food item.
Um and I don't I'm not sureexactly how this magic works.
So it's just magic.
Uh so so don't think too deeplyabout how that's happening.

(09:31):
You get to choose what that itemis.
Um, limited shelf-stable fooditem that you found.

SPEAKER_02 (09:38):
Okay.
I still have a question though.
Is it like one thing or is itlike a mixture of things?
Like, can you say I want peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches?
Or can you say, no, you can havepeanut butter?

SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
No, you can have peanut butter.
However, you can forage and findother things to make with your
peanut butter if that's yourselection.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
The kind the the the rules are complicated because I
think really the only rule itneeds to be is it has to be one
thing that comes in a container.
So like peanut butter is its ownthing, and the bread and jelly
are another thing entirely.
However, if you find mixedvegetables smackables, so you
could yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
So you could go, so I would probably go with nuts of
some sort.
And I would so I guess like, youknow, mixed nuts, trail mix,
something.
Then you could have then youhave MMs.

SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Oh my god, trail mix is a perfect idea.
It does come in one package.

SPEAKER_02 (10:29):
It does, yeah.
Or granola, something like that.
Because I feel like you the mostthe hardest thing to find is
often fat uh out in the world.
Um, so that's it.
I would go for something withfat, protein, and then I feel
like you can find carbs, you canum find vitamin C, you can do
all that, you know.
That's all possible.

(10:51):
But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Um this next question might be might be a
loaded question.
But um, you know, in this inthis warehouse, you've also
found an this this warehouse hasbeen just a treasure trove.
Uh, but you've also found a umsolar powered DVD player, uh,
which I've never seen one ofthose in the wild, but I feel

(11:13):
like you can get anything onTimu.
We make the rules on this show.

SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Like, you know, I have a little solar-powered like
EcoFlow thing that has plugs,you know, so I could solar power
plug in my DVD player, my TV,and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, what you've also found is abox set of DVDs.
It might be a show or maybe aseries of movies, or even like
one of those four packs that youget at Walmart that's just like
all Wesley Snipes movies orsomething.
Some like combo that's likesomehow vaguely remembered.

(11:48):
Right, gotcha.
But you only found one, and thisis what you get to watch for the
rest of your natural life.

SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
Sheesh.
I really don't know.
I'm trying to think.
You know how when somebody asksyou, like, what books do you
like?
And you're like, I don't knowhow to read.
I don't know what you're talkingabout.
Um, yeah, I don't know.
I'm trying to think of like acomfort show.
My comfort show years ago usedto be Northern Exposure, but I

(12:16):
don't know how well it's aged upto 2020 something.
So I've never seen that show.

SPEAKER_00 (12:20):
I I remember watching it like as as a kid.

SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
I remember nothing about it.

SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
No, I loved it.
Um, oh sheesh.
I don't know.
We might have to come back tothis because I can't think of
anything.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Let me know if it occurs to you because I I feel
like there's some otherquestions that might help us get
in that direction.
Okay, what would yours be?
Oh, you're gonna ask me?
That's not fair.

SPEAKER_03 (12:47):
You might inspire me.

SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
You know, I'm I I I feel like something that I could
watch over and over againendlessly and just pick it apart
and I and both get comfort andentertainment from it at the
same time is The Walking Dead.
Um, at least the first eightseasons.

SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
It wouldn't feel too real in the actual apocalypse.

SPEAKER_00 (13:09):
That's a you know, this is also a break?
Yeah, that's not a break.
No, it is.
Some pet some people watchthings that are horrifying to
them um for a number of reasons.
One is to either make fun of it,so they're like, oh, this is so
stupid.
I'm I'm like I can't believethat they think this is how it
would actually be.

SPEAKER_02 (13:28):
And the other th Yeah, I think you and I were
messaging about hate watching,or wasn't hate watching jeer
watching, yes.
Anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Um, and then the other reason, even if it's like
a bad example, like uh theydetermine that a lot of people
watch like romance moviesbecause they're secretly trying
to learn from them.

SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
Oh, that's horrifying because romance
movies have so many bad lessons.

SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
But okay.
That's true.

unknown (13:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
Um, but but those are sometimes the reasons that
people watch something.
And I feel like The Walking Deadwould both be like a a catharsis
in the zombie apocalypse, whereI'm like, yeah, this is kind of
stupid.
That's not how zombies work.
That's that you know, you can'tstab somebody through the head
like that.
That doesn't even make sense.
But that the on the other sideI'd be like, oh yeah, I should

(14:12):
be trying to find sorghum.

SPEAKER_02 (14:17):
Yeah, okay.
I get that.
You know what?
You inspired me, and I don'tknow why your thing inspired
inspired me, but um, I think I'mgonna go with the Bill Murray
collection.

SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
Oh is this like a Walmart Bill Murray collection?

SPEAKER_02 (14:33):
Like, yeah, yeah, because I can watch Yeah,
because one of my favorite daydays songs movies ever is
Groundhog Day.
Um so I got that, but then I'vegot like the 80s movies, and
I've got the more serious, youknow, current movies.
I'm good.
Yeah, I think Bill Murray.

(14:54):
And I can watch Zombieland.

SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So Yeah, it's a safe bet.
Uh Bill Murray is a is aconstant, a constant um, I don't
know what the word is that I'mlooking for.

SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
Let's move on.
Yeah, could I embarrass myselfby asking this question?
Bill Murray was in cityslickers, right?

unknown (15:11):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (15:11):
No, was that a couple of things?
No, that was Billy Crystal.
Oh, okay.
I'm so bad at pop culture.
It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Listen, I it's but my I know some people, but that
stopped in like 2000.
So, like, if it's notBrangelina, then I'm like, I
don't know.
I don't know who you're talkingabout.
And they're not together now,right?
I don't know.
I don't think so.
Yeah, my daughter actually knowsmore about that.
She was saying something theother night about both Brad Pitt
did, I don't know.
Fast.

(15:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Is Brad?
I guess he's still alive.
Okay.
Brad Pitt is still alive.
You're right.
Uh, we have a couple of extraspecial rapid fire icebreaker
questions for you from ourmutual friend Elm Juniper
Juniper.
Are you ready?
Yeah.
How many cans of beans are underyour bed?
Elm wants to know.

SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
Okay.
Um, probably over a hundredright now.

SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
Really?
You just keep them under yourbed?

SPEAKER_02 (16:02):
Yeah.
Because there's not enough roomin the pantry.

SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
So how many are in the pantry?

SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Well, uh, not that many.
Probably like 40.
I have a lot of cans of beansunder my bed.

SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
Wow.
Well, you know what?
I I feel like if you're gonnahave you know, that's it's just
wasted space under your bed.
Might as well fill fill thebeans.

SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
Are you the kind of prepper that has like your
doors, like a hollow you open upyour door that's a hollow door,
and you made secret shelves andyou have stuff in there, or you
won't tell us because then weall know.

SPEAKER_02 (16:33):
I would love to be that kind of prepper.
I am not, I'm not like supercrazy, but I do really like
having cans of beans.
So, and flour.
Those are like my two things.

SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
Like, I mean, that'll get you pretty far.
We are missing flour in ourprepping kit.
We have uh literally buckets ofbeans.
Oh, I'm looking at them rightnow in our bunker.

SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Yeah, we have about 200 pounds, which I feel like is
not anything compared to what'sunder your bed.

SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
I feel like, well, once you rehydrate those 200
pounds of beans, you probablyhave like a one bed worth of
beans.

SPEAKER_01 (17:05):
Trump got elected and we were like, we need
hundreds of pounds of beans.

SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Yeah, beans, lentils, rice.
Um, and we've got some morebuckets upstairs.
80 80 additional pounds upstairsof other things.
Nice.
Yeah, like oats and uhdehydrated vegetables and things
like that.

SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
But we need flour.
I have those things outside,like in the garage that um back
in, you know, packaged properly.
But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
How long do you think you could eat on what you
have in your house and yourgarage?

SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
I don't know.
If I were a good prepper, Iwould have sat down and figured
that out.
But um, you know, a family, Idon't know, people eat a lot.
So in like one of the books ofthe Cascadia series, I actually
just sit and figure out how muchfood does this group of people
because this one book calledWorld Without is they're very
hungry and they're um they haveescaped, but they've escaped to

(18:01):
the woods.
It's not the right time for youknow, really getting food
because it's moving into it'sfall.
Um, and so you know, they'reforaging, they're doing stuff.
But when you sit down and startto figure out how long food will
last this group of people, whichI did um lots of math, um, who
is like, wow, all of that'sgonna last them two days?

(18:24):
You know, like what?
It could seem like so much, andit's not like it's really hard.
So um, I don't know.
I mean, we we could at least fora couple months, at least.
Like maybe three, but yeah, butwe're not like I think a year
would take, you know, I don'thave room for that.
My house is not big.
So that's hence beans under thebed.

(18:45):
Um, yeah, Sam.

SPEAKER_00 (18:47):
I yeah, when you start doing math like that, I I
can I can't help but feel likeyou start looking at the people
around you a little bit morescrutinizingly.

SPEAKER_04 (18:57):
Like you.

SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
You know, if you have somebody in your party
that's just a a total, a totaldickhead and they're eating all
your beans, you're just like,you know, we'd probably get
another day's worth of beans ifyou weren't eating them.

SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ah, yeah.
So I have I've also I go throughand I like, you know, when
things are expired, you cyclethrough.
I try to buy things only that weonly eat, like only things that
we eat.
Um, but um, you know, thingsstill escape you and expire,
which doesn't necessarily meanthat they're bad.
So I've started putting a wholebunch of expired food into bins

(19:35):
that, you know, they're sort oflast resort, or they're people
come asking for food in like themost dire circumstances kind of
scenario.
People want food, and I'm like,here you go, here's some food.
Like, try to feed people becauseI don't want to be the prepper
who's like, get away.
You know, I feel like communityis important.
And so I would rather share myfood and then I'll come up with

(19:57):
a plan to get more than live onmy food, conquered down,
thinking everybody is my enemy,and you know, then not be able
to get any more because I'm onmy own, you know.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
This is why I like the zombie apocalypse better,
because I believe people likeyou are the ones who are gonna
survive, not the not the ones.
I was just reading on threadsthis person who was mad because
somebody was in the food bankline with an expensive car and
they just could not conceive ofthe fact that maybe they uh for
whatever reason are driving anexpensive car and still need
food.
Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:30):
Maybe they already owned it outright.
Maybe somebody gave it to them.
Like uh that's they borrowed it.
Yeah, it's oh my god, it's soannoying.
It's like, whoo, how dare youbuy soda in the food in the line
on food stamps?
Like, like let someone have alittle bit of joy, dude.
Like, you know, I mean, and whatif their kids having a birthday
party?
What if it's just none of yourfucking business?

SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
You know, like what if it's cheaper than buying
water?

SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, seriously, right?
What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 (20:59):
So this is the opposite of fun food, like
buying a Coke.
This last question from Elm, butI think it's a very important
one.
Elm asks, would you rather eatfish or cockroaches?

SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Oh my god, fish.
So I mean, I hate fish, and Iwould I like no, but at least
it's something that I could putnear my mouth and swallow.
Like, no way.

SPEAKER_04 (21:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
I have a cockroach phobia, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
Same.

unknown (21:26):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Yeah.
I'm like, burn it all down.
Like when my daughter one day islike, what would you do if we
saw a roach in the house?
And like, I'd move out, likewith me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Yeah, because if you see one, that means there's like
two billion in the on thefloorboards.

SPEAKER_01 (21:41):
They're somewhere, yeah.
I um yeah at one point wasworking on doing this like
loving meditation.
And so there was this cockroachthat we listen in Georgia.
Just to be clear, there'scockroaches.
You can't do anything about it,they're there.
Oh, like the big old palm.
Yeah, the big ones, palmettobugs.
Yeah, my mom.

SPEAKER_02 (21:56):
Yeah, my mom and stepdad lived in Charleston for
a while.

SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Oh, those things are those things are extra in
Charleston.

SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
Yeah, and so they had somebody spray and she had
like a vacuum for bugs, andshe'd just like call my stepdad,
be like, get over and kill thatthing.
Um, but that you know, becauseyeah, they are.

SPEAKER_01 (22:15):
They're just they are, but I managed to actually
feel affection for this one whenI was doing my little I'm like,
you're just scared.
You're just a little scared guy.
Don't come near me, don't touchme.
I had one crawl up my pantsonce, and that was very
upsetting.
If you can't do this, you walkin the bed.

SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
Well, in New York, we call them water bugs, and
they don't fly, except thatapparently um in recent summers
that have gotten more hot andmore humid, um, the ones,
especially in the subways whereit's even worse, they will
actually fly.
They don't they more glide,those like palmetto bugs, water
bugs, all that, but they havebegun to do that because it is

(22:55):
warm enough for them to do that.
So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
Yeah, no.
I think the biggest problem thatI have with this.

SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
Anyway, oh, I know what I was saying.
Sorry, sorry.
I woke up, I woke up, I had abasement room in Brooklyn and
that my dad built, blah, blah,blah.
Um, and I woke up one morningwith one crawling toward my face
on my blanket, and I was like, Iam so fucking out of this room,
and I moved into my olderbrother's room as teenager.

(23:22):
We my brother and I shared aroom as teenagers because I was
like, no, not doing it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Yeah, bug bugs they don't have any boundaries.
They think it's fine to crawl onyour face.

SPEAKER_01 (23:32):
They didn't know any better.
I gotta give them some theydon't know.
They need to learn.

SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
They are called bugs.
Survival depends on it.
I I uh the the worst thing thatI ever had a bug do is I I had a
scorpion crawl across my face inAfghanistan.

SPEAKER_03 (23:47):
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
And uh, and it was it was pitch black, pitch black
in the dark.
I just felt this thing scurryacross my face, and I jumped out
of bed and I'm like, what wasthat?
And then I I saw this giantblack scorpion on the floor, and
I'm just like, nope, nope, nope,nope.
I still check my my boots everyevery time I put them on.
Yeah.
So I check for scorpions everytime.

SPEAKER_01 (24:08):
That's fair.
That's traumatizing.
Yeah.
I think that there's some peoplewho are listening, like, we you
should have put a bug traumawarning at the beginning of this
episode because they draw like alot of people will have their
own stories, I bet, listening tothis.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:21):
Yeah.
And I I don't I don't reallywell, I don't like want a
scorpion on me, but most otherbugs, like it's it's really just
roaches.
Like, I don't mind, I'm theperson who everybody in my house
screams when there's a spider.
And I'm like, yeah, I'll justwell, let's take it outside.
Like, and I catch them.
And uh, my dad told me when Iwas little that it was bad luck
to kill a spider.
So I don't kill spiders.

(24:42):
So I catch them and I put themoutside.
So that's you know, I'm not,it's not like, but it's roaches.
That's I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
I was very proud of myself that one night where I
was able to be like, okay, Idon't hate you up there on my
ceiling.

SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
So and then did you just let it crawl away into I
don't know where it went.
Yeah, I don't know.
Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
I mean, we did spray for them too, like so it wasn't
common to see them, but I wouldI was just like, here's my
chance to practice sending loveto something that I would rather
send love.
Yeah.

unknown (25:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:15):
Um let's start this off with the most important
question, I think, uh, is whatwhen did you decide that you
wanted to write in a in zombieapocalypse fiction?
Like what was what inspired you?

SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
So it's funny because I didn't read any zombie
books.
Um and I I was reading a wholebunch of there's like a domino
effect.
I needed to, I I was, you know,you borrow books from the
library back in the day, whichis 2006.
You still can.

SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
Sorry.
You still can.

SPEAKER_02 (25:51):
Yes, you still can.
But what I'm saying is that Idid often, which I still do, but
I buy the electronic ones, and Iborrow the electronic ones.
But so I'd be trying to readwhile nursing my daughter with a
big old hardcover, a book lighton that.
And I kept dropping it, andwould drop it on their heads,
you know, their head.
And then my son, after I hadhim, drop it on his head.

(26:13):
And I was like, I need to likedo something, but you couldn't
read a candle in the dark, blah,blah, blah.
Found out you could read aniPod, started reading, which
opened up a whole bunch ofreading that wasn't on the
computer, because I don't liketo read long things on a
computer.
Um, so then I was like, Oh, lookat, and you know, I like
prepping and I've always been onthose forums on and off, just
reading stuff.
And so people were like, Oh, youknow, read this book, read this

(26:35):
book, read this book, and a lotof self-published stuff.
And so I started, you know,reading because that because I
liked it.
And um I was reading, and theywere just all the same guy, you
know, who's like, oh, oftenright wing, but sometimes it's
not really stated.
Um, you know, white dude haseverything, you know, everyone's

(26:59):
the sheeple, nobody else issmart, nobody else knows how to
do anything, nobody has anyskills, you know, that kind of
thing.
And I was just like, dude, Iprep.
I know about this shit.
Like, where are the people likeme?
Where are those people?
So I started to and um I'dalready said, I'd always said,
like, I'm never gonna write abook.

(27:19):
This my my husband um went toschool for creative writing.
Like he took got an MA and anMFA in creative writing.
And uh I was his alpha reader,and I'd be like, oh, how do you
even do this?
It's so much work, it's soannoying.
Um but anyway, I got justsuddenly this like bug in my

(27:42):
pants, not a roach, who um tolike where I wonder, like, where
are these people?
Like you could write, so all ofa sudden, Cassie and the gang
popped into my head.
And originally it was an EMP.
So um, this is 2011.
Uh, I was like, well, maybe youshould just like write it.

(28:04):
And you know, I don't know, I'dnever written fiction before.
Um, so I was like, well, okay,like I'll just, you know, I it
was kind of like they wouldn'tleave me alone, like the story,
the characters, like they werehaving conversations and like I
was having ideas for few, likewhat would happen later.
And so I started to write it.
And I think I don't know when,but it's very early, chapter
two, three, whatever.
I was like thinking ahead.

(28:25):
I think, and all of a sudden, Iwas like, but zombies, like, and
I the only zombie book I'd everread was World War Z.
Um, I'd never read a zombie bookbefore that.
And I was like, you know what?
Like, and I was like, what doyou mean zombies?
This is all to myself.

SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
And um I feel like I'm inside your brain.

SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
You are, it's very chaotic in here.
Good luck.
Um and uh uh I was like, well,huh.
And I just suddenly startedseeing how like that would be
really cool and how much theycould just fuck up everybody's
day.
Sort of like when you get intothe EMP and all realm and all of
that, like it it's very muchlike bad people.

(29:10):
And uh I didn't, I mean, there'sgonna be bad people, which you
know I have also explored andwill continue to, but I also
sort of like, you know, there'slike man against nature or
people against nature and youknow, against themselves and and
not just against, you know, morepeople.
So um I was like, well, thatwould be really cool because

(29:32):
though you could have badpeople, it's sort of like the
zombies are the bad people, likeand but they're not.
And that's what makes them so Ithink even scarier is that like
they're so relentless, but yet,and you and you feel like and
they are after you, but it'ssort of like it's so mindless,
which could even be scarierbecause it's like, you know,

(29:52):
yeah, you can outsmart them, butyou can't like out energy them.
You know, you can't, yeah, youcan outrun them, but could you
outwalk them?
Forever?
No.
Probably not.
You know?
So I don't know.
Yeah.
So that's the zombies poppedinto my head and I was like, oh
no, well, let me just start thisdifferently and see where it
goes.
And then yeah, there it went.

SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
I'm glad that it felt right.
I'm glad that you mentioned theuh the books that you'd tried to
uh tried reading before becauseI I also have been inundated by
uh uh uh a trove of exactly thatsame exact narrative over and
over again.
Um and I've I feel like for along time it was kind of like uh

(30:34):
dominating the charts.
That's what it was suggesting tome every time.
But I'm like, what other zombiestories are there out there?
It just it's just like here'sanother dude with a family that
thinks that all of his kids arestupid and all of his neighbors
are stupid, and he's the onlyone that can save the world.
And I kind of classify those asum the uh the the power trip

(30:55):
fantasy zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_03 (30:57):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:57):
Oh yeah, it's all about like uh maximum violence
against the zombies.
Uh you're the only one who cansave the world, and everybody
else is helpless.

SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
A lot of guns.
This is why when we started thispodcast, Sarah, and I've I've
shared this before, so I'll justsay it briefly.
But when we started it, one ofthe things I was worried about
was like, I'm like, are we justgonna read a bunch of like angry
white dude stories in the zombieapocalypse?
Because if we are, I'm not goingto read them.
Um, and then very quickly, likewe found Elm, and then through
Elm, we found you.
And then we've had so muchexposure to other amazing

(31:28):
authors like Sylvester Barzi,like and it goes on on Courtney
Constantine, Alice B.
So I feel like I need to saythem all now.
You know who you are.
You're wonderful.
Um, which was so refreshingbecause I was scared genuinely.
I was like, I don't want to dothe that part, Dan.
You can read the books.
I'll just be here as like acommenter.

SPEAKER_02 (31:46):
I feel like there was some sort of like mind meld,
um, because when I released mybook in 2013, so when I wrote
it, I was just, I was like,well, um, I'm just gonna, I
guess I'll just like when I'mdone, I'll post it on zombie
forums.
Like I really didn't have aplan.
I had zero plan for this book.
Um and then, you know, in justwhile writing and reading about

(32:10):
Kindle and reading more onthings like Kindle and stuff,
which was mainly, you know,where people only bought books
then.
Um I was like, well, maybe youcould like release it for 99
cents or, you know, like I don'tknow.
Like, so yeah, so I released itfree at first.
I kept it free for a little bitbecause you used to be able to
just put a book for free uh upthere.

(32:31):
And um, and then I guess youstill can, but not in KU.
I don't know, whatever.
Um, you can cut that out of uhor not.
You can just listen to meramble, whatever.
I love it.
Um but a lot of a lot of otherpeople also released books like
right then.
So like um Tracy Ward.

(32:52):
I don't know if you have everread Tracy Ward's books.
I feel like we need to startwriting this down.
Yeah, she's awesome.
Open a new new document.

SPEAKER_00 (33:00):
We're gonna take literally doing it.

SPEAKER_02 (33:03):
And uh Claire Claire Riley, Claire C.
Riley, uh, she's British and shereleased books.
Um Rachel Rachel Aukes, which isA-U-K-E-S, Aux, which is
probably how I say it in myhead, but it's gonna say it in
the real world.

SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
The Deadline saga, I think, right?

SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, Lindsay Pogue and LindsaySparks with their ending series.
They're never zombies, but theywere post-apoc, um, uh and sort
of like a fantastical element inother.
But anyway, so there were awhole bunch of people sort of
released, and we like got toknow each other, like, oh, hey
neighbor, like, you know, um, soit's cool.
It was like suddenly there was abunch of that, and it was like

(33:44):
some was YA, but not all.
Um, you know, and even the YAthat was was less YA than, you
know, other YA.
So um, yeah, yeah.
So it was kind of cool.
It's like I think a lot ofpeople started being like, hey,
where are the like, where are wein this scenario?

SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
And I I totally agree that there was like there
was some kind of like a zombieapocalypse awakening.
And I think I was feeling it atthe time too.
Just like, um, I feel like it'sa religion.
Started for me like in 2005.
And something that I struggledwith was that I was not finding
the stories that adequatelysatiated my thirst for the

(34:24):
zombie apocalypse.
And a lot of these were like,you know, the ones the ones that
you described earlier, the thethe power trip fantasy.
Um, and like people who just gotit wrong, you know, like people
that just didn't understand itand they were just like, I'll
write this because it's easy orsomething.
Um whereas I feel like around2010, and maybe it coincided

(34:44):
with The Walking Dead becomingpopular, but people started
thinking more deeply about thezombie apocalypse, and they
started thinking about like howit can be used to describe
interpersonal relationships andcommunity building and
alternative ways of living otherthan the one that we're in right
now.

SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Which is my favorite part.
Like my favorite part of thebook I shouldn't have started
with uh in the very beginningbefore Dan told me I should stop
reading it.
Start at the beginning.
Was like figuring out, you know,having to like help the cat and
the dog go to the bathroom andlike deal with that when you're
on the road to Alaska.
Like that was like nobody's evertalked about pooping in the
apocalypse, and I feel like it'ssuch an important topic.

SPEAKER_02 (35:25):
Oh my god, I'm obsessed with poop in the
apocalypse.
So, and that was one of mythings in like every book I've
written is like, how are peoplegoing to the bathroom?
Like, whenever they getsomewhere new, if they're gonna
be there, friendly, like howwhat are they gonna do?
There's a lot of poop, you know,like in this world, like
everybody's all have to dealwith it.
You know, I mean, if you'reliving, you're pooping.

(35:47):
So, like, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think it's all it's likeimportant.
Um, yeah.
And you know what's funny isthat I also had, because I live
under a rock apparently, um, Ihad no idea that The Walking
Dead was a show.
And so you just said it came outin 2010.
So it was like, I was writing mybook then.
I had no idea.

(36:07):
So I had the first draft done,and I don't know, because my
husband, he's like, hey, youknow, there's this show.

SPEAKER_04 (36:13):
And I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_02 (36:16):
This is really how clueless I was about zombie
things.
Like, you know, I'd seen likezombieland and loved it, and
I'd, you know, seen like the oldmovies and you know that kind of
thing, but I really just didn'tknow anything about zombies.
I was like, well, yeah,whatever.
I'm just gonna write what Iknow, which I guess was nothing.
But um, and uh, I was like, no,wow, cool.

(36:37):
So I was really excited.
And the I think the first seasonwas done then, or it was like
they were doing that hiatus.
I don't know, but there was awhole bunch for me to watch.
And it was funny because thewhole time I'm watching, I'm
going, oh my god, oh my god,don't do anything that I did in
my first draft.
Don't do anything I did in myfirst draft, don't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
That's how I feel about current events right now.
I'm just like, stop doing thethings in my book.

SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Um also please don't.
So yeah, I I would love to writelike a uh techno state um techno
feudalism kind of likeapocalypse book.
And uh yeah, I'm like, but Idon't really need to see it.
Like we don't need it for real,y'all.
Like I can make it up.

SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
Don't give them any ideas.

SPEAKER_04 (37:23):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
Um yeah, I I I mean that that might have worked in
your favor.
Like uh I I think that like whenI read your books, I feel like
it's a a fresh take.
And despite the fact that youwrote them over a decade ago,
I'm like, wow, what a freshidea.
Um and I and maybe part of it'sthat like you weren't you

(37:44):
weren't influenced by anythingelse, so you weren't trying to
be anything, uh, other thanthings that you already found
interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (37:51):
Yeah, I think that's really as like I like survival,
I like prepping, I like likefriendship and laughing and you
know, that kind of stuff.
And so uh that was kind of likelike I used to say it was um uh
zombie chiclet, which then Iwould I would get emails from
like rough men.
This isn't chiclet, I liked it.

(38:12):
I'm like, well, maybe you likechiclet then.
Did you ever think of that?
But um but but the reason why isbecause you know, back in the
90s and stuff, I loved, I stilldo like rom-com books, and I
loved those, like that thatgolden age of the 90s um rom-com
books, um you know, I guessmovies too.

(38:33):
Um, but you know, like just allthose, all those authors back
then, um I loved them.
So it was sort of like, but theywere they were always, they
weren't just like silly, likethey were groups of people, they
had real feelings, they hadfriends, they had humor, they
had uh and so it was kind oflike I took that group of people
almost and put them in theapocalypse.

(38:56):
So that's why I called it chicklip.
But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
Something that I really loved about your writing,
and it's something that becamemore and more clear to me the
more I was reading, especiallyin the in the first series, and
then moving on to the otherseries, is that you have this
level of of world buildingthat's like it seems like
there's so much more going onthan your characters even know
about.

(39:18):
Um and I really I think thatreally helps in later series
because everything lines up.
Like you have no confusion aboutwhat's what's happening in the
world, um, outside of thesmaller world where your
characters exist.
Did how did you did you like mapout all the events and the
timeline before you started, ordid you just wing it?

SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
I I am I am I'm a panser to like the oh does if
people are listening don't knowthat means you're not a plotter.
That means you sort of fly bythe seat of your pants when
you're writing.
Um like you pants people really?

SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
That's what she does.
She said it here.

SPEAKER_02 (39:57):
I just anywhere I go, just somewhat random yank
them down, right?

SPEAKER_01 (40:02):
It's the wrong time to try to drink coffee.

SPEAKER_02 (40:07):
Um so no, no.
And I and some I have to go backand be like, wait, will this
work?
Or um, and sometimes I I haveideas of what's going on in the
outer world, but you know, I Ivery much like being in sort of
that like microcosm of like,these people don't know.
How the hell are they gonnaknow?
You know, unless they get whichthey do, they get radio reports.

(40:27):
Sometimes they get, you know,whatever.
Some rando comes past and says,Oh, hey, did you hear?
But um yeah, it's uh, but yeah,no, I I'm not good at that.

SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
Well that blows open my whole my whole theory.
So does it all just live in yourbrain, this world?
Or did you at some point did youlike it?

SPEAKER_02 (40:47):
No, well, no, it really it most of it does, and
God forbid I'm ever knocked onthe head because like it's gonna
be gone.
Like I just um yeah, no, it'sit's I actually have a lovely um
reader, Molly.
Hi Molly, thank you, Molly.
Which she made like this insanedocument, and she has listed

(41:11):
like timelines and likecharacters and like and I've
been trying to do this for likefive years, like if not longer.
I've tried, you know, um, likenotebooks, I've tried digital
notebooks, I've tried a wikithat, you know, like a wiki that
lives on your own computer.
Like, I mean, I've tried somany, and I just can't get my
act together to do it.

(41:32):
So um she just is like this likea hundred something page
document.
It's insane.
And I was like, I can't believeyou did this.
And thank you.
Like it's this is what I needed.
So I guess some of it does liveoutside my head now, but not the
stuff to come.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
You're you have you have a Molly.
We have an Ollie.

SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
Molly and Ollie should be friends.

SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Yeah, because that's the same level of commitment as
Molly and Ollie.
Because I feel like they'd makebeautiful spreadsheets together.

SPEAKER_02 (42:05):
Seriously.
I was like, she was like, oh,well, you did the work like in
in the writing.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no,no.
You did the work for this.
Like, I might have written thebooks, but like just because you
had the information, like youwent and put it together.
Like, that's that's like a lotof work.
And I really appreciated it.
And I would will absolutely useit.

SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
It's like receiving a hundred-page love letter.
Like, that's true dedication,and like I know really seeing
your story in a way that israre.

SPEAKER_02 (42:33):
Yeah, yeah.
No, it it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (42:36):
So we should all be so lucky to have somebody make a
hundred-page document about ourplans.

SPEAKER_02 (42:42):
I mean, I am such a disorganized human being and
things do live in my brain.
Um, so trying to like get themout and have them make sense
half the time, like it's such astruggle.
Um, in terms of yeah, planning,organizing.
Every time I've ever written alike outline, I'm like, what are
they called?

(43:02):
Um what are these things?
I have actually you know, um,I've sat and written, I've been
like, well, let's get your shittogether, you know, and do this.
And I will write an outline, andthen the next day or two days
later, it's like, nope, notgonna follow that.
Like, I mean, it's just like awaste.

(43:24):
Like I've tried it and it'sbecome and I finally I was like,
just stop.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (43:29):
I mean, you don't need to.
That's it's clear though, right?
Like you have a system in yourbrain.

SPEAKER_02 (43:34):
So yeah, and like I I have what I call like I call
them stepping stones, sort of.
So with every series so far andwith the books in the series,
it's like I have, you know,beginning, I have this big thing
happens, this big thing happens,this big thing happens, this is
how it ends.
Or, you know, little scenes.
Doesn't have to be a big thing.
This is a little scene wherethis and this, you know, goes

(43:55):
on.
Um, and I also know uh when Istarted the first book, I've
known how the very last bookends, like the last book in the
series.
Um, like down to like a sceneliving in my head.
And so it can change, you know,there's a lot of words in
between, but so far with allthree series, I've written the

(44:16):
epilogue of the very final bookof the series before I finish
book one.
Like, and it's you know, it'sterrible writing.
It's gonna need to be changed,but it's like it won't stop
bothering me until I at leastget it out.
And I think that kind of likehelps me to get to that endpoint
instead of, you know, but but inbetween those points, it's like

(44:39):
no clue.

SPEAKER_00 (44:41):
I totally understand.

SPEAKER_02 (44:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:44):
Um, I mean, I could I could go on and on about that,
but like I'm not, I'm not goingto I'm not going to pirate the
uh the sound waves.

SPEAKER_03 (44:53):
I like to hear about things.

SPEAKER_00 (44:56):
It it sometimes it feels like a mental illness um
when I try to make somethinghappen and then the book takes
over.
Um but I do have like theseideas that I'm like, I want to
get there.
Please, characters, get to thepoint that I want to get to.
And I just I just become I juststart uh trying to reason with
them.
I'm like, please just do whatyou're supposed to.

SPEAKER_02 (45:18):
And sometimes they just don't listen.
Like I've I've had charactersnot die who were supposed to
die, um, without givingspoilers.
Um and I've had characters who Ididn't think would die die.
In fact, I had one that when Irealized she was about to die, I
actually was like, and I put mycomputer down and I got up and I

(45:42):
just started walking around myhouse for like 10 minutes, like
in this like like this state ofsome like like shock almost.
Like it's like I had to likecome to terms with the fact that
I was about to go write this,because a lot of deaths I know
are coming, but this one waskind of, I mean, it was spur of
the moment for her and it wasspur of the moment for me.

(46:02):
And so I really had to walk herin the house being like, okay,
okay, you can do this, likeshe's doing it, it's all right,
you know.
So yeah, I feel like I can't dothat.

SPEAKER_03 (46:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
Uh because I because I feel like I had that
experience when it happened.

SPEAKER_04 (46:18):
Um yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (46:20):
You know, actually this is this is uh segues
perfectly into a question thatuh Courtney Constantine asked.

SPEAKER_03 (46:28):
Um lovely lady.

SPEAKER_00 (46:30):
Courtney Constantine introduced us on Facebook.

SPEAKER_03 (46:33):
Yeah, she did.
She did.

SPEAKER_00 (46:35):
Uh Courtney wants to know what kind of trauma do you
have that you need.
You have you have to inflictsuch horrible heartache on your
readers.

SPEAKER_03 (46:46):
I know.
I know.

SPEAKER_00 (46:48):
But I guess it just happened.
Like you didn't make thatchoice.

SPEAKER_02 (46:52):
Right?
It's zombies or whoever did it.
Um, yeah, I don't know.
I I don't I I guess because I Isort of like to see how much you
could throw at someone and um,you know, some people die, but
uh and and and kind of how theycome back from that.
Like I have a I have a big um Ilike hope.

(47:15):
I like redemption.
I like um like when all is sortof seems lost, like finding that
little glimmer of like, youknow, your strength, your hope,
your whatever that gets youmoving again.
Um and I actually startedwriting when I started writing
until the end of the world, Iwas um going through a really

(47:36):
rough period in my life, and Ihad two little kids and um yeah,
it was and and I was like, I'mgonna write this.
And people afterward were like,so really, during like this
worst point of your life, youdecide to write a book.
And I was like, it kept me sane.
And so I think because I'vegotten like emails from people

(48:00):
who have said to me that like mylike those books and but my
books in general that are like Iwas having a really rough time
with, and sometimes they'll tellme all about their life
experience or like death ofsomebody or whatever, and like
and and it and it helped me likeget through that trauma and
thank you.
And like that is like absolutelyamazing.

(48:20):
I might get all teary-eyed, butum, like to me, I would I've
just been like, holy shit, likethat, that's amazing.
But I don't know if some of thatcomes forward, it comes through
in that like trying to getthrough rough times and and come
out the other side being like,I'm still me, I'm still strong,
I'm still, you know, maybebetter.

SPEAKER_00 (48:42):
So yeah, that's what we always that's the hope of
going into something horrible isthat you come out uh alive, but
hopefully better.

SPEAKER_02 (48:51):
Yeah, and it and it doesn't mean you're not scarred,
it doesn't mean you don't, youknow, um, you know, you weren't
affected by it, but it does meanthat, you know, hopefully a lot
of those experiences can kind ofmake you more empathetic, more
loving, more caring, you know.
Um so yeah, like sometimes Ithink that like it's no one

(49:14):
wants to be bullied or have abad experience, but I feel like,
you know, having Ben on thatside of things as a young
person, like it sometimes makesyou more empathetic.
It makes you more able to see,like, yeah, that didn't happen
to me.
You know, not not aboutbullying, but about anything in
this world, like food stamps,like we were saying earlier, you

(49:36):
know, like, like, yeah, buy afreaking soda.
I don't care.
Buy what you, you know, likelike just having empathy for
other human beings.
I think that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:45):
Yeah, trauma can definitely offer that
opportunity to become a softerperson.
And it's interesting, you're notthe first author to say that um
you wrote your first book aboutzombies while also going through
something really hard.
So I find that very interestingas like a way of processing.
But I it also makes sensebecause what you're saying is
like a fundamental truth.
And I know like when I'mdepressed, I'm not putting on um

(50:08):
a song called Happy.
I'm putting on the lights on thehorizon by metric and crying my
eyes out and feeling seen by mymy personal obsession, Emily
Haynes, and being like, I loveyou.
Thank you for keeping me aliveby also being sad and making a
song about it.
So I do think there's somethingthat's really beautiful about
sharing trauma bonding throughthrough art and books.

(50:29):
Um seeing that you can beresilient and that there can
still be like love and care,even the worst circumstances,
like the simple act of makingsure the cat can go to the
bathroom and not wanting to hurtthe dog who's barking all the
time.

SPEAKER_02 (50:43):
Absolutely.
And like I have a character inmy my this series who at the
beginning, I don't think it's aspoiler because it's like
apparent from you know,basically page one, um, who is
having uh um issues with herhusband and emotional abuse and
you know drug addiction, but umand but a lot, you know,

(51:04):
emotional abuse and her sort ofhead space.
And and I've had people be like,oh, like thank you for writing
that because I thought I wascrazy, or that's that is how it
happens, and that, you know, umis is how I feel, you know, and
and it's it's it's yeah, I thinkthat's like the most rewarding
thing when you can write a storyand then you have people who um

(51:28):
relate on those levels with yourcharacters because they feel so
real that they're recognizableto people.
Um like that's the bestcompliment, I think.
And on, you know, two peoplewho've contacted me and said, I
didn't know I was ace, you know.
I have an ace character, Craig.
And uh I and and I didn't know.

(51:49):
I love him so much.
Um, he's my baby.

SPEAKER_00 (51:53):
Um like what an underdog story.

SPEAKER_02 (51:55):
I know continue.

SPEAKER_00 (51:57):
I'm sorry, I interrupted.

SPEAKER_02 (51:58):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It's just it's just like we weresaying, just sharing, just
having these these people, theseexperiences that like some come
from you, some come from otherpeople that you can put into
these characters in a realisticway and then have people relate.
I just feel like you know,that's the best part of writing.
That's the best part of reading.
I love to read books that thathappens.

SPEAKER_00 (52:18):
So they they came to the the zombie apocalypse to to
learn something from your books.

SPEAKER_03 (52:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:24):
You know.
And they they learned thingsabout themselves.

SPEAKER_03 (52:29):
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:30):
I I do like that you have some really great uh uh
redemption arcs in your stories.
Um people that are like you youyou really grow to hate these
people because they're just suchinsufferable assholes.
So when Courtney Constantine wasintroducing us, I asked Courtney

(52:52):
um if uh based on what I learnedfrom your books, should I be an
unredeemable jerk um and makeyou absolutely hate me, but then
experience some sort ofcharacter growth and mature into
a man who's in touch with hisfeelings, and then we would be
become uh best friends foreverforever, like an unbreakable

(53:12):
bond because of that group.
Uh would that be a good idea?
Um, would that have worked?

SPEAKER_02 (53:18):
Yeah, I really just like diapes nice people better.
Uh, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (53:24):
Okay, good.

SPEAKER_02 (53:25):
Um I got I scared.

SPEAKER_00 (53:27):
I got I chickened out.
I wasn't I couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 (53:30):
No, no.
I uh yeah.
I I've never been one of those,you know, women who are like,
oh, he treats me bad, nice.
You know, I'm just I I don't.
I'm like, listen, are you adick?
Are you funny?
Like if you're not a dick andyou're funny, then yay, like
that's cool.
But um yeah, no.

(53:51):
I mean, I that I love redemptionarcs arcs because I love that
sometimes you have people whothat is under there, that that
the good person is, it's justbeen covered up with so much
like hurt and and and you knowexperience that um that they're
afraid for it to come out.
And I do love that.
And I do, you know, like to meetpeople like that.

(54:12):
And but I upon first meet, youknow, I probably be like, well,
I don't want to hang out withthat person, you know.
So I think when you're forcedinto the situation, then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:24):
Yeah, you're surviving together.
Yeah, you yeah, they better havea redemption arc, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:29):
Otherwise, otherwise they're gonna kick get kicked
out of their house.

SPEAKER_02 (54:35):
I did have one character in the City series who
um like could have redeemedhimself, and you know, you're
kind of thinking that he Iwasn't even sure if he would.
And he absolutely does not.
Um yeah, and that was kind offun.
Like to to just be like, is hegonna?
Is he gonna?

(54:56):
Yeah, he is, he is, and thenhe's just like, No, I'm not a
motherfucker.

SPEAKER_00 (54:59):
Like, yeah, so yeah, I love I love hearing this
because it totally um backs uphow I feel about writing because
like I'm hearing you talk aboutyour own writing as if it's
something that other people didinside of your head.
And uh like sometimes I reallyfeel that way.

SPEAKER_04 (55:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:18):
Um something that I found uh really inspiring.
And I I noticed this early on inyour first series.
Because your first series ismostly from the perspective of
one person.

SPEAKER_04 (55:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:32):
Um and it's all first person uh perspective too,
uh, to point out.
Like um sometimes I forget thatit is because uh you did
something in your uh novella SoLong Lollipops, where you
switched perspective um to amale POV.
And it kind of blew my mind.

(55:53):
And I'll ad I'll admit that likeit really challenged some of
these like left behind lingeringscraps of of misogyny that were
inside of me that made that likeI I had the thoughts inside of
my head that I'm like I'msurprised that I'm that that
this is that like I I'm notnoticing anything outside of

(56:16):
this POV.
Like it seems like it seems likeit's from the person, um, not
from the writer writing theperson, uh which I then told
myself that of course uh that'sthe case because you're a great
writer.
Um but it it did make me likerealize that about myself and
made me realize that like youcan write outside of your own

(56:38):
POV um and switch perspectiveslike that.
And then later on in your seriesyou you s you switch um a lot.
It becomes a regular thing.

SPEAKER_02 (56:47):
Um I'm like, really?
Four people, dude.

SPEAKER_00 (56:50):
Like that yeah, I could imagine that that's that's
a challenge.

SPEAKER_02 (56:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (56:56):
Really?
I remember just to briefly popin here, I remember you coming
home from that day where youwere listening to um So Long
Lollipops and being like, Istill have a misogynist inside.
We're like, let's unpack that.
It's okay.
Like we have lingeringprogramming.
Um, but what's really cool islike realizing.

SPEAKER_04 (57:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (57:15):
Um, and to be frank, I think a lot of women writers
are much better at writing menthan men are at writing women
because um men have been trainedto see women as objects and not
subjects.

SPEAKER_03 (57:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (57:25):
Yeah, like that.
She tit she titted boobily downthe stairs.

SPEAKER_00 (57:29):
I loved it when you wrote that.
Um yeah, I mean, there was therewas just some things that like
were were gendered in my mindthat I had to like rethink.
Um That's why I love Hansera.
Just as an example.
And some of those things werethings that I've that I've
experienced personally, likesome of the the action in So

(57:50):
Long Lollipops, I I wasn'texpecting from this series.
Like I I had a very differentidea of what that was from the
first book, and then going in,I'm like, the stakes felt so
high and it felt so real.
I almost felt like I was there.
And I'm like, I've I've beenshot at before, and I've this
feels this this action sequencefeels like somebody who knows

(58:14):
what it's like to have a ared-hot flying piece of lead
flying at them.
Sarah, have you been shot at?

SPEAKER_01 (58:20):
No, thankfully.

SPEAKER_02 (58:23):
I'm hoping to keep it that way, but you know, um,
no, but thank you.
That's awesome.
Um yeah, I don't, I I guess I Ijust I I really like people.
And I really like hearingstories, and I really love
nonfiction.
Um, I I've spent entire years ofmy life just being like going

(58:45):
through phases where I'm onlyreading nonfiction, like
creative nonfiction, you know,where um it's written like a
novel almost, but it's true.
Um I just love seeing how peoplereact and and I do research.
So um I like to get first, youknow, if it's not first hand
experience, I like to getsomebody else's first hand
experience.

(59:05):
Yeah, you know, and really readup on something because I'm
like, I don't know what that islike, you know, and I could put
myself into somebody's shoes asmuch as I as much as possible,
but yeah, I just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:17):
So yeah, I I think I think that helps a lot because
like I'm I'm writing outside ofmy own personal experience.
So I'm like, I have so muchdoubt.
Um, and I'm just like, can I dothis?
But like hearing that it ithelps helps me realize that a
lot of this is just likelearning and hearing other

(59:38):
people about their ownexperiences.

SPEAKER_02 (59:40):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I'm super nosy.
So like you could be telling mea story, you're like, oh, so I
have this friend, you know, Rob,and he and I will actually get
so into it.
I'll be like, well, what is whathappened then?
What did he say?
What did they say?
What is that?
Like, like I'm and I'm nevergonna talk to anybody about
this, Rob.
I don't know him.
I'm not.
I'm it's not like gossip that Ineed to know.

(01:00:02):
I'm just so like I just so nosy.
Like I love to hear people'sexperiences and how they reacted
and why they reacted that wayand in that kind of thing.
And I think that absolutelyhelps with writing people.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:17):
Um I'm bad at ask asking questions.
Um I know I know I'm a host of apodcast and all, but uh but I I
think that my strength islistening.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:27):
So yeah, well, and I think sometimes if you're just
quiet, people will just tell youthings.
Oh, thank you.
And then you can ask littlequestions like, oh no, and what
happened then?
Or how did he do like what didhe do then?
Or well, how did he feel aboutthat?
Or oh my god, that must havebeen terrible, you know.
Well, and then they just keeptalking because yeah, yeah.
Um I'm like what I look for in afriend on the phone is that they

(01:00:49):
will talk for 90% of the time,and then you know, I can do the
10% filler thing.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:56):
Um we can't be friends, Sarah, because I'm the
same way.
I need the 90%.
And people are like, but wait,how are you?
And I'm like, uh let's not talkabout that.
Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:04):
Like, I don't know.
I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:06):
We're just gonna be all sitting around in a circle
being like, but then whathappened?
Um also something that I've thatI find really fascinating is
that there's so many there's somany like deep knowledge rabbit
holes um in in your writing.
It seems like you've exploredsome of the tiniest details of a

(01:01:32):
subject to its tenth degree,just so that you can understand
it better and write about it.
And like I noticed this aboutlike when you're talking about
pickling.
Uh sometimes you're just talkingabout like mountain bikes.
Uh yeah.
Sometimes it's about acornflour.
And like there's so there's somany times that I've heard of

(01:01:55):
people in you know, like in somezombie show.
Oh, I think I think Kat wants tocome in.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:01):
I was showing you some acorns.
Oh, I have collected.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:07):
You'll watch like an uh like a zombie show and
they're like, oh, I made theseout of acorns, but they don't go
into depth talking about likebleaching like leaching the
tannins out of it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:16):
And I have a problem with that Walking Dead episode,
okay?
Because Carol, you did not justmake those acorn cookies.
She's like, I've got a disguiseat these acorns, and here we go.
Like, no, motherfucker.
Like that's a that you have toleech the tannins out of the
acorns.
And that's not like an easything to do.
It's not, it's not a quick thingto do.

(01:02:37):
It's an easy thing to do, Iguess, but it's not a quick
thing to do.
Um, so yeah, I was like, thosewould have been the worst
cookies you've ever made.
Like they would have beenhorrible.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:46):
Everybody loved them in the show.
I know one person who took onebite and he's like, it's they're
great.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:53):
But I will say, like, this is why it's important
to have the detail orientationthat you do, because I was
living a life of thinking thatacorn flour was super easy until
Dan informed me.
Because of you and your storyinformed me that I was wrong,
that we could not just do that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:09):
This is why people don't really eat acorns, is
probably because I mean becausethey're they're you know
traditional food.
Um, you know, especially outhere, um, so many of the
indigenous tribes here ateacorns and they were like a
major food source in California.
Um, and you know, they'rethey're they're used in Korean

(01:03:30):
cuisine um commonly.
Uh so you know, but but theytake work.
And so I think that there'dprobably be more of an acorn um
market if they didn't take allthat work to leech and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:44):
And we'd we'd all be working on acorn farms.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:46):
This is one of my gripes of the modern era,
though, is like right now I'mbetween jobs, Sarah, and a
friend of mine asked asked mehow I was doing how's the job
hunt, and I was like, well,either I'm gonna get a job soon,
or if the full collapse of thisempire is coming, and I get to
live like my gardening andforaging fantasies.
Because if I don't have to havea job, then I have time to do
the stuff with the acorns.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:06):
I need to just putter and do all the things.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I feel likethe part where you die if you
can't get it right is scary, butyou know I better not fuck this
up.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:19):
Um, but you have a very short time window
sometimes, too.
It's like, I better learn how togarden like right now, or else
I'm gonna starve to death in thewinter.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:29):
And and you know, and even gardening, it's like
then you do all that gardeningand you're like, so how do I
pickle?
How do I pickle without killingmyself?

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:41):
You know what I think a lot about is like
cabbage worms are my bane of mygarden existence.
I hate them so much.
I've tried many things.
They always at some point getsomething I don't want them to
get.
And yeah, every time I look atthem, I think in the apocalypse,
I would just be grateful foryou.
I would just eat you.
Just eat you worm.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:00):
You're not safe.
Don't think you're safe.
Um yeah.
I uh my my my nemesis, or Iguess nemesis, is that the
plural?
This um this summer were I hadsquash bugs.
Oh, and then I had wait, someother squash motherfuckers.
I don't remember.
Oh, cucumber beetles, and thenthere was another, oh, and then

(01:05:22):
powdery mildew.
And I was just like, come on!Like fighting something
constantly, it was reallyannoying.
But you know, I was thinkinglike, my god, like imagine
trying to do this while makingenough food for a gazillion
people.
Oh, with flea beetles, those, ohyeah, don't don't get that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:42):
I've never experienced now.
I'm going to just because you'vetold me it's your fault.
Next summer I'll be cursing you,Sarah.
Don't get them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:49):
Okay, well, just when you see the first little
holes appear in your leaves, letme know.
I'll tell you what to do becausenow I know.
But it was like they got too fargone before I understood what
was happening.
So, because every time yougarden, it's like, you know,
you're like, I got the hang ofthis now.
And then there's some new, somenew pest that's like, ah, but
here I am, you know.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:09):
This is my first year having tomato worms in
forever.
Those suckers are huge.
We had some robins though thatwere living on the side of our
house.
So we Simon, um, Dan's brotherwho lives with us, he just like
plucked a bunch of them off andthen left them right by the
robin and was like, here.
Feed your babies enjoy.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:27):
I mean, sucks for the worms, but great for the
robins.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:31):
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:32):
Yeah.
So do you do you often go onlike obscure knowledge uh rabbit
holes where you just oh so many.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:40):
So many.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:41):
How much of your writing is spent just on
Wikipedia?
So much.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:45):
This is this is why a first draft often takes me so
long, is because not because I'mtrying to get the like actual
writing itself right, because Ifeel like all first drafts are
horrible.
You just gotta like do it.
Even as I'm going through, I'mlike, oh God, like, no, you're
not gonna keep that.
Like, no, that or that's notgonna happen anymore.

(01:07:05):
But it's like, don't stop, justgo.
Um, but I do get kind ofobsessive with the research
because that does have some,like, has an impact on what I'm
writing right then, draft ornot.
So I spend a lot of time, andit's been, you know, sometimes
things are really hard to find,like stupid information that

(01:07:27):
you're like, how, you know, likeI wanted to know what happened
to hotel door locks in one, andit was really for like like it
was really for no scene, likenobody really needed to know
this.
So, you know, what happens whenthe power goes out?
Well, they're on battery, theyall run on batteries, but then
those batteries die.
So what happens when thebatteries die?
And I can't actually don't evenremember the answer, but you

(01:07:49):
could find out in a book, Ithink.
But you know, it was a lot ofwell, like it took me, I don't
know, a couple hours maybe,maybe more.
I mean, just trying to figure itout.
Um, I forget now we live in aworld with uh chat GPT and all
that shit that like will alsolie to you, so you should you

(01:08:10):
know double check.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:11):
Yeah, but you know, what happens to hotel door locks
and they're like theyautomatically unlock when the
battery runs up.
You're like, okay, I'll writethat then.
And then it's yeah, absolutelyfalse.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:21):
Somebody who installs battery locks for a
living reads your book and islike, ah, you lost a reader.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:28):
I think somebody said to me, they're real I'm I'm
like, but you know, all the allthe hotel door lock readers will
be like, Well, that's not right.
I'm like, because you know and Ido this with everything, with
everything.
Like, I wanted to know how tolike how they could cut a boat
off a boat lift without it, youknow, dying.

(01:08:48):
Like, how did it work?
Could they get it, or how couldthey get it back down?
Um, because there's no power.
So how does that work?
And I found out, oh, well, thenson, they have this Allen
wrench, and the Allen wrench youcan do this, and it will, you
know, it's like it, but you haveto they had to go find that
thing and oh, they found it, youknow.
Um yeah, I I I get kind ofobsessive, and probably more so

(01:09:09):
than I should, because I thinkmost people just be like, nah,
but But that's what I lovethough.
That's what I love about yeah,but but but I'm also I'm crazy
and I and I know a lot of reallyridiculous facts.
And so when I'm reading a bookand it's or listening to
something or whatever, and it'swrong, or it's just I'm like,
I'm like, no, but I could havetold you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:31):
You know, I've I've quit series because they got
details wrong.
Like little tiny things that noone cares about.
Like, you know, I I I was I wasreading one and um and they had
they had this way to get out ofa situation where they scared
away the enemies with a bunch oflaser pointers, which is a
really smart idea.
Um, and the guy was like,actually the the they come out

(01:09:55):
and they explain, and they'relike, We we were just using
these laser levels.
And the guy's like, I know,because real snipers use green
lasers.
And I'm like, what?
Are you s no they don't.
They don't use any lasersbecause lasers would draw a
sniper.
Yeah, it's like a gimmick forHollywood.

(01:10:16):
You don't really use them unlessit's you know, on the unless you
really like it for some reason.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:22):
But yeah, uh what I what I love is I love all those
little tiny details.
I love I I once described this,I think to Leah.
I think I described it to you,where it's like, um, these books
are like you're you you you reada whole bunch of chapters about
pickling and gardening, andyou're like, I love this
pickling and gardening book.
And then zombies come and ruinit.

(01:10:44):
And you forgot for a fewchapters you forgot that there
was an existential threat thatwas going to take away all of
the pickles and vegetables.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:53):
I think what's great about though is that like you've
proven that that's a good storybecause that was always what
annoyed me.
Even with The Walking Dead, it'slike always a big bad is the
foreground and not the livingand existing and surviving.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:03):
Yeah.
So I don't remember a ton of, Imean, I watched The Walking
Dead.
Um, I don't remember a ton ofepisodes, but I do remember that
one of my most favoriteepisodes, and you guys know it
like back and forth, so you'llprobably know what I'm talking
about, is when they're all justlike wandering around, they're
looking for water, they break upinto a couple groups, and then
people are having conversations,and you know, uh, and I was

(01:11:24):
like, this is like that was likemy books, you know, like like
that.
I loved that episode.
And then I realized that wasprobably why, is because it was
just like they're surviving.
There's still this survivalaspect.
There's still a zombie here, azombie there, we gotta knock
that one out, you know,whatever.
But they were justcommunicating, they were like

(01:11:45):
working together.
Um, so you had the tension, butyou also just had this sort of
like peacefulness along withthat tension of them just trying
to do this everyday thinginstead of some you know giant
catastrophe going on.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:59):
And you've had a few, a few big bads, but I I
feel like they don't dominatethe plot.
Like they show up.
Yeah.
But then like they get dealtwith.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:08):
Yeah.
And you know, I mean, there arebig bads.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:12):
Like, you know, in this world.
And so sometimes you get somesome readers who are like, oh,
but I hate when everything's abattle.
And I I I'm with them on that.
Don't want everything to beeverything's bad.
Yeah.
But but at the same time, it'skind of like, look around,
y'all, you know, there are a lotof people who are, you know, no

(01:12:35):
good and who do horrible things,which, you know, in the City
series, I um that's a that's abig bad.
Not in every, not at first, andnot, you know, the whole thing,
but there is a big bad.
And um that sort of likeculminates, yeah.
Um and I'm so the kind of personwho's like, but no, let's just

(01:12:56):
all share.
And as a community, we can geteven better, you know.
Um preach.
So yeah, but I kept being like,but why?
Why are they doing this?
Why is he doing why would whywould anybody do this?
And I had to actually keep goingand reading like about terrible
things happening in the news andlike in the past and stuff,

(01:13:16):
because I'm like, no, people areactually this horrible and worse
for reasons that you're likejust because you didn't want to
share?
Like there was enough foreverybody and you just were
being a dick.
Yeah.
You know, like like why?
And so I that's like that I finda big challenge with with the
big baddies, you know, is is Idon't understand why you would

(01:13:38):
want to do that.
But then I look around and evenmore so now, and I'm like, okay,
yeah, they they really do, theyjust they just want you to die.
Like they just don't give onebuck.
So um they want to win that.
That might make my next baddie alittle easier to write.
So yeah.

unknown (01:13:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:57):
In the same way, like uh, you know, unless there
is the metaphorical zombieapocalypse or like zombies
coming for you that weredirected to you by the bad guy,
which can happen, especially inthis world right now.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:08):
Ice.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:10):
Um anyways, or you know, I don't know, putting us
all in a metaphorical castle andcreating a siege so that people
don't have food, uh, hoping thatwe're all gonna give in.
I'm sorry, you should cut this.
I'm just getting mad about ourcurrent reality.
Um, but my point is is that likein between all of the horrible
shit happening, there is stillthe I gotta do the laundry, I
gotta feed myself and my family,I've gotta go to work, I gotta

(01:14:33):
go um finish my gardeningchores, whatever those are.
And that's what's like, like yousaid, Dan, I think what's really
beautiful about the way that youwrite is that that's and I think
that's actually true for thistime.
Like every moment that we cancarve out for ourselves that is
about the simple things andabout being in community with
each other is like I think theantidote to to complete despair
and just giving up.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:55):
So that was my rant.
You can cut it.
No, I think it was.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:59):
No, don't cut it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:00):
I'm just really mad about the castle because I'm
like, we're literally, you'reliterally he's outside of the
metaphorical castle and you'restarving people.
Like that's what's happening.
It's very upsetting.
Anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:11):
You know I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:15):
Something I wanted to ask before before we wrap
this up, um, is that uh, youknow, we live in a time where as
especially as an indie author,um people have a hard time
juggling the need toself-promote, to build their own
online communities in order tosell their books.

(01:15:36):
And uh what I learned about youis that you are social media
allergic.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:42):
Um they don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:44):
Yeah.
Like I was able to contact youon Facebook, and even then it
was like uh like once a week iswhen you would check it.
And first of all, I admire that.
Um in this time, I I went Iactually the the Facebook
account that I contacted youwith, I have since deleted.
I'm sorry.

(01:16:05):
Um, I knew you were trying toavoid I'm trying to avoid
everyone in the world.
I hear you.
Um so I've I've deleted a wholebunch of social media accounts,
like old ones.
Ones that I thought were um thecompanies were problematic.
So I'm like, you're not gettingmy data, delete.

(01:16:25):
Um yeah.
But how do you think thatauthors need social media to
market themselves?

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:33):
So I think that now it it is really helpful.
Um, you know, back when Istarted the whole algorithm,
Amazon, like it was easy.
No, okay, it wasn't easy.
It was um easier, it was it waspossible, let's say.
It was easier to get your bookum visible, have it be seen with

(01:16:58):
the advent of advertising on allthese, you know, Amazon, social
media, all that.
Um they've begun hiding a lot ofyour content because you're not
paying for ads.
Um the Amazon algorithm used tobe like sell a bunch of books
and you go up and now it doesn'thappen as easily as it does, um,

(01:17:22):
as it used to, or there's aglitch or doesn't show up for
two days.
Um, like with my last book, Ithink it was, or the time
before, I don't know, one ofthem, you know, you really you
count on that boost when youpublish a new book that your
readers are going to buy it andthen it's gonna go up, and then
all these other readers whodon't know you buy it or say,

(01:17:45):
Oh, who the hell's that?
Oh, let me go check out theirbooks, and then they start
reading your other series.
Um, and um, you know, a lot ofthat's changed, and like one
this one time I'm speaking ofthe the whole ranking system
just went kaput.
And so um you had like there waslike no rank, and your book, my

(01:18:07):
book didn't go anywhere up,down, like it just it was like
it didn't exist.
Um, and then when the rankingscame back, it was like it had
never happened.
Um, you know, and and I I keephearing of that happening more
and more often to people.
Um, yeah.
And I've tried ads, well, Ihaven't tried Facebook ads, but

(01:18:27):
I've tried Amazon ads, and theyjust like I have zero luck with
that.
So um yeah, I think it'sdefinitely an art.
Like you have to get ads.
It is an art and it's um yeah,so I think social media also
helps.
Um Elm, like you were saying,does find a lot of readers.
Um, he posts on uh Instagram alot and TikTok and has certainly

(01:18:54):
found a lot of readers throughjust posting there, not
advertising, just being um, youknow, out there and having fun
things and that kind of stuff.
So, you know, every I don't knowthree three months, six months,
I'm like, you're gonna do it.
You're gonna make content,you're gonna make a video,
you're gonna go out and saysomething.

(01:19:16):
And um yeah, crippling anxiety.
Not really good.
I I I that's that's part of thereason why I don't go on social
media, is because uh it gives mea lot of anxiety.
So um I deal with um a lot ofanxiety.
Um so yeah, it just it stressesme out.

(01:19:37):
Um, but I do think that it'shelpful, especially for making
cute content and you know, likequick, sort of fun content that
will grab people's eyes.
Like I think that that's I thinkit is helpful for authors if you
can, you know, get yourself todo it.
But what if we don't wanna,Sarah?
Then don't let me know.

(01:19:59):
So come come join my course.
It's called No.
I'm not gonna do that.
And we just, you know, hang out,shoot the shit.
And like, did you go on socialmedia?
Nope.
Me neither.
Okay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:14):
You know what?
You could sell this, but you'dhave to go into social media to
sell your course.
I know.
And you'd have to be like,comment comment help for my free
guide on how to say no to me onsocial media.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:26):
Uh you know, uh I mean you you mentioned how it
was like it was a differentworld when when you when you
published uh your your firstbook.
Um did it is that when youraudience found you, or did it
take a long time after that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:42):
Um, no, you know, uh again, like some of it's luck.
I think that I published at theright time.
Um I also was on back in thethere used to be a homesteading
today.
I don't know if you've everheard of that website.
Um, it was like forums, and theyhad a prepping um forum, and I

(01:21:02):
just lurked on there all thetime.
I didn't post much.
Um and so when I first releasedthe first book, I did it free.
I did like five free days, andthen I went on there and I said,
I've only posted here liketwice, but I know you guys are
always looking for somethingfree to read, and um, you know,

(01:21:24):
I am a liberal.
So actually, and I I was I waslike, well, you know, some of
you might not.
I was like, just so you know,I'm what I call might call a
liberalitarian sort of, youknow, because I'm not anti gun,
I'm not like, you know, but I'myou know, absolutely social
programs and that kind of thing.

(01:21:44):
Anyway, off of all that.
So I said, but here's a freebook.
Y'all like free things.
And a lot of them went anddownloaded it.
And I got, they gave me, um,they didn't even know me.
They were just like, woo-hoo,free book, you know.
Uh and and then, you know, boththere on the thread and then on
Amazon, they left me reviewsthat they liked it.

(01:22:07):
And I think that then that usedto really boost you.
So I had a free book, and yourfree books used to, I don't know
if still then they impacted yourranking, but it still got you
seen.
And um, and then I startedgetting reviews quickly.
And so to rack up like, I don'tknow, say 50 reviews in the
first like week of beingcompletely unknown back then was

(01:22:29):
really good.
And then any, and then Amazonstarted promoting my book, like
algorithm-wise.
And so I got a good bit ofreaders.
Like I went from, you know, likeI mean, not rich, still not
rich, not even close, but I wentfrom like I can pay some bills,
you know, right away.
And that was really, reallylucky.

(01:22:50):
I think that I just happened torelease the book for free at a
time when it was helpful to dothat, and got a lot of reviews
fast because people were wantedto be nice to me, except for the
one motherfucker who said thatthey were mad because there was
a gay person in it, and you canbite me, and I don't care.
So um I think that was my secondreview was someone being like,

(01:23:15):
like, authors, we're tired ofthe gay people, or I don't know.
And I was like, okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:21):
At the time when there was what, like one or two
books with any of myrepresentations.
The gay agenda, though.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:28):
Yeah.
Oh my god.
Oh, so some of my favorite, Ihave two favorite um reviews,
and um, I can't think of whatthey are off the top of my head,
but I have them on my phone.
One says, I'm gonna have to findthem while we talk.
Um but yeah, so I think thatthat really helped in terms of
the the time period when Ireleased and how I released.

(01:23:51):
I think and I think I was I waslucky.
You know, I think that had a lotto do with it.
Of course, you know, having awell-written book or a story
that people like is going tokeep people coming, but I also
think that there are plenty ofbooks that should be seen.
I'm sure because I haven't seenthem because they're hiding,
because you know, I'm not beingshown them, um, that deserve to

(01:24:14):
be read.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:15):
So that's very humble of you, and I think it is
some combination of those twothings.
Because, for example, like wefound out about you not from any
algorithm, but from Elm's book.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:25):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:25):
Like that you're mentioned in Elm's book.
That's how we found out andbinged everything that there
was.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:32):
I was I literally Googled you while reading that
book and just being like, isthis a real?
Is this real?
Like, I thought it was somethingin fictional inside of Elm's
universe.
So I'm like, whoa, this is areal person.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:45):
That's really funny.
Yes.
I am.
I'm a real person.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:50):
So, come on, picture, we can do it.
Okay.
Full of profanity and gayworship.
Oh, wow.
Did you feel so proud?
We wanted a fun, exciting bookto read on as a family on a road
trip.
This definitely does notqualify.

(01:25:12):
So that that was the little thatwas the that was underneath
that.
Um book is about lesbian teens.
Not to mention everyone else isgay or asexual or
neurodivergent.

(01:25:33):
My goodness.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:34):
Oh, neurodivergence.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:37):
You know what I find so hilarious about that is that
I'm pretty sure I've never hadanybody labeled as
neurodivergent, like you know,official, like I've been
diagnosed, but I'm ADHD.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:52):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:55):
And people have actually asked me repeatedly
since I wrote Rose, who's a lot,I mean, I'm a lot like a lot of
characters, but a lot of theRose anxiety and like blah blah
is like me.
And um And they're like, is Roselike on the spectrum or does she
have ADHD or something?
Like, oh god, I've shown them mybrain.

(01:26:17):
Yes, like, uh-oh, the evidenceis stacking up.
Yeah, she's not diagnosed.
I wasn't diagnosed for a millionyears, like until like in my
40s.
Um, you know, I was just spacecadet kid.
I could hyper focus on reading.
Um, and you can get away with alot.
You can do those two things andremember stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:38):
Yeah.
Read Wikipedias about acorns andhow to leech out the tannins.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:42):
Yeah.
So um, but so I guess thisperson surmised that people are
neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:50):
And was upset about that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:51):
And they didn't like it, yes, along with lesbian
teens.
And yeah.
So gay worship.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:57):
I mean, honestly, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:59):
I I love that.
I just I if I I think I shouldjust make it my tagline.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:04):
You should because I would if I didn't know you and I
saw that as like a quote for Iwould be like, I'm reading this.
Gay worship.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:11):
Full of profanity and gay worship.
I mean, like it's like you gotme.
I'm hooked around.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:16):
That's that's a little blurb that's on the
cover.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:19):
Yeah, right.
I really should.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:22):
Um thank thank you so much for being our our guest.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:27):
Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:28):
Little podcast.
You can come be a guest anytimeyou want.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:32):
All right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:32):
Well I have so many questions here that I didn't
even get to.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:35):
And also do it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:37):
Oh man, uh, I feel like we could do a whole
question about your book.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:41):
Yeah.
We should do a writingconversation with a few people.
Yeah, that would be great.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:45):
Oh, that'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:46):
Also, I feel like we could just do a whole episode
just about um gear watchingbecause we had uh we had a
conversation about Jericho andcandles.
Which actually I'm gonna ask onemore question.
How many candles is appropriatein the apocalypse?

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:03):
Fucking two at most.
Two at most.

unknown (01:28:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:08):
I'm glad that we got that out of the way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:10):
If it's a big, big room, or you know, you got
people in different sections.
Like everybody can have acandle, like you know, in a
group.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:16):
Like one candle per person.
No, that's too many.
I heard one candle per group.
Per group.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:22):
But everybody has a candle.
If you're on your own though,you get a candle.
I don't know.
If you're reading, you mightneed to have your own candle
next to you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:28):
Bring your own candle, is what I've seen.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:30):
Like people, we don't have that many candles.
You can't put 40 on the mantleand then have a conversation 20
feet away from them and withmore candles.
Yeah, yeah.
What are we doing out here?

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:40):
Rendering tallow?

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:42):
Yeah, seriously.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:43):
We don't have time for that.
We don't have candles for that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:47):
Yeah, no, it's like uh yeah.
And then there's one scene inJericho because my dad and I, as
we said, we I was we were jeerwatching it, and uh well, we we
were just watching it, but thenit became a jeer watch.
And at one point, there's onepoint and I goes into the police
station, it was one of the laterepisodes, and the lights are on
and they still have candles.
And there's a lamp on.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:07):
There's a lamp, and they got the lights on and
they're burning candles.
These people are wasteful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:13):
Fuck, y'all.
Like, stop it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:15):
This is exactly my point, though.
I feel like we could have awhole episode just pick pick a
series, geer watch it, and havenothing but notes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:25):
And you you can actually give me episodes of The
Walking Dead to watch that Idon't remember particulars, and
we could discuss things thatdrove you crazy in those because
there were things that drove mecrazy.
Like quickly when they werebringing the fucking wagon that
weighs nine million pounds downthe stairs, and we're like, you

(01:29:46):
know what?
Instead of lowering it, insteadof putting it over thing, let's
put it on the glass fuckingfloor.
Like, I saw that coming, and Isaid, please tell me they're
gonna lay down some wood,they're gonna do something.
No, no, of course not.
And then yeah.
So things like that.
Like I love it.
And of course, those are crazy,you know, but I believe that was

(01:30:07):
season eleven.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:07):
And season eleven, we have we've written it off.
We did it.
We haven't done any episodesabout The Walking Dead other
than us talking about seasoneleven because it was We
committed to rewatching theentire thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:20):
I'd never watched season eleven.
And I don't think you hadeither.
We only watched up to season 10.
It was brand new at the time.
And we were like, we're gonna doa whole series in The Walking
Dead, and then we only did oneepisode being very upset about
season 11.
And we were like, I have to likenot think about this for a
while.
So yes, we could do an earlierseason of or episode and just
get you back in.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:38):
Yeah.
And I love Negan.
I'm one of those people.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:42):
I also love Negan, but only upon second watching.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:45):
Reformed Negan, but even I mean, he's even kind of
charming me.
He's an asshole.
But like, but even I don't likemen like that.
But yeah, maybe I'd like Negan.
I don't know.
But when he's reformed, I wasjust like, this is my jam.
Like when you have somebodywho's he redeemed himself, he
did, and he's real, and he buthe's still like he was an
irredeemable jerk.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:06):
Then he had a crisis of conscience and became a
redeemable character.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:11):
Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:12):
Showed growth.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:13):
It was awesome.
That was one thing they didright now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:16):
And he got in touch with his feelings, and now Sarah
loves him.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:20):
I do.

SPEAKER_04 (01:31:21):
I do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:23):
Well, thanks everybody for joining this
episode of the Zombie Book Club.
You can support us by leaving arating or a review.
We like those five stars,please.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:32):
Five stars.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:33):
We need those stars.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:35):
We will take no less.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:36):
Yeah.
Same with Sarah's book.
Leave five stars, no less.
Even if you're like five starsshould be rare.
Well, Sarah's books are rare andthey deserve five stars.
So there, take that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:46):
Especially if you like profanity and gay worship.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:48):
Yeah.
I think our audience loves boththose things.
I think so too.
You know our audience.
Uh you can also send us avoicemail.
Up to three minutes at614-699-0000030s and a six.
Not as many as I said.
Um It's in the show notes.
It's in the show notes.
You can sign up for ournewsletter.
You can follow us on Instagramat ZombieBook Club Podcast or

(01:32:10):
join us on Discord.
All of the things are in thedescription.
Why don't I just say that at thebeginning and we could skip this
whole thing?

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:17):
We could change everything.
But for now, Sarah is my newbestie because you have agreed
to sing with me, our outro thatDan Dan will jeer while we do
it, just to warn you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:28):
It causes me great pain.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:30):
Might sound crazy, but the end is not.
Baby bye bye bye.
Don't talk! Oh boy.
One day I'm gonna mash all ofthose up together into a
wonderful compilation.
Thank you so much, Sarah.
That made my oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:49):
That was that was great.

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Sarah Lyons Fleming - Until the End of the World | Zombie Book Club Ep 121

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Sarah Lyons Fleming - Until the End of the World | Zombie Book Club Ep 121