Superman is Better than Batman

Hollywood has unleashed the latest adaptation of The Man of Steel on the big screen. The Big Blue Boy Scout has been reinvented for a whole new generation of movie-goers. On this week's episode we reignite the eternal debate between Superman and his super friend - Batman: The Dark Knight. We explore their respective strengths, leadership styles, sidekicks, rogues galleries and more. Will be still believe this title by the end of the pod? Will you?! Listen to hear how we defend your fave!


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Is the narrative that Batman is better than Superman because
he doesn't have powers.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Tired, Yes, I don't.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Know what else there is to say, So I'm gonna
say hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm Ashal Victoria Robinson and I'm.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Chasing him and welcome to your Mind University. Because this
is the podcast where we dig into characters and constructs
and ideas of pop culture a little bit less than
an hour. And today, oh.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Today, today we solved it under thirty seconds.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Today is a day you all have been waiting for
for a very long time. Today is a day where
we're gonna take one character from pop culture another character
from pop culture. We're gonna put a V between them,
and then we're gonna put a colon after both of
their names. And then when we after we have this conversation,
all the people land shall say, Yo, it is the

(01:03):
dawn of the Justice.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
I think they're gonna say that the power dynamics of
the DCU has been shifted forever.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
That's black, Adam Well, I silly, it's funny, it is
what a stupid Yeah, we're talking about Batman and Superman,
a subject that we're all tired of.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm just gonna say this. If these were two women,
i'd say, don't pit them against each other, collaboration over competition.
But these are two men, so I'm gonna say, let
them fight.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Let them fight. We're here to talk about this. Superman
and Batman, two characters that were never meant to be
in a shared universe. Ever, somehow ended up in a
shared universe that somehow ended up as best friends, that
somehow ended up as enemies, that somehow ended up as lovers.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, it's interesting because you can you can't argue, and
it's a very surface level argument, but we will touch
on it a couple times. That these two characters are
antithetical to each other. But I think that also is
what begs comparison between them, especially if you set aside,
like they beg comparison because of their cultural legacy and
they launched this su universe and they're both superheroes.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well that's the thing we should stay out here because
they're both DC Commics characters. Obviously, we're talking about this
because there's a new Superman movie coming out the way. Yeah,
you know, I hope you're excited about it. If you're not,
well then hope you're not fine, whatever, it doesn't matter
to me. Uh, there's no Batman movie on the horizon.
Who knows that, I don't, you know, I don't know,
I don't. I think maybe Batman's popularity is not what
it was and we may never see a Batman movie again.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Honestly, fine, give me a night Rre movie.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
You know, we don't need Batman movies anymore now, anyways,
no more Batman. The thing to remember, and I think
we need to remember, is that the DC Comics universe
was never meant to be a shared universe, and it
wasn't a shared universe until just a society of America.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
And even when that happened, it was a big deal.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
It was a one off.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
It was an else world it was. But I mean like,
it was never intended to be this ongoing narrative.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
It was like, let's try this and see what happens.
It was meant that sales that title.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
It's so was meant to be an ongoing narrative because
the DC Comics editors in the Golden Age were like, hey,
what if we all put put all the same characters
in one title, It'll get all the sales. The problem
is is that comic books at that time were not connected.
You had your Western comics, you had your romance comics,
you had your war comics, you had your horror comics,

(03:20):
you had your superheroes, you had your things. Shared universes
were not really a thing until stan Lee. Because stan
Lee was creating all those heroes and he interconnected them,
Spider because he.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Was writing, so he could do whatever he wanted.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Your Man showed up in Fantastic four, and then over
here came the Avengers, and the Incredible Hulk showed up,
and the Avengers and all this other kind And what.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
Was the liber gonna say, no, you can't do this.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
He didn't care. No, exactly, he didn't care.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
And you write your funny books and so they you.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Know, it was never meant to be tied into this
insane continuity. Yeah. Like again, Superman's world is science fiction
and aliens.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
It's futurism as well, and yes.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
It's futurism and utopia. And Batman's a crime book.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
And arguably, even in its earliest origins, a bit of
an examination of what modern city life was.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah it's soro.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
I guess I'm lost. What are we talking about.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
How Superman is better than Batman.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
How do we want to kick this off?

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Well, let's let's start at the beginning, A very good
place to start for all my Alison.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
That moment, yeah yeah, yeah, it came on and then
there were stars.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Well, you know, unless you thought Superman, unless you follow
the Celtic origin, we're in the calliac and created the
world by going around and setting lumps of clay down,
taking them out of her basket. And Scotland actually was
not intentionally set down, It fell out of the back
of her basket, which I think is the most Scotland
origin of all time.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
I see, So who has a better origin story?

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Superman or Batman?

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Superman or Batman?

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Okay, let's uh, why don't you talk us through your
your Robin Gurley once you give us, like a very
brief synopsis of Batman's orgs t LDR.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Bruce Wayne said, I want to go see the Mask
of Zorro and Mommy and Daddy said sure, but Mommy
said I'm gonna put on my rich White Lady pearls
and then Batman. Then Bruce Wayne said, I'm so scared
of this movie because I'm like eight and they said,
that's okay, We're gonna walk home through crime Alley.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
Because we're the richest, most famous people in town.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Nobody will bother us.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
No, we're going to our chauffeur, who for some reason
is not parked right outside of the cinema.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Parked a mile away. For some reason, they.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Were stuck them up for the aforementioned pearls and they
were shot and they were killed. Bruce Wayne stewed in
all of his rich.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Glory for the next eighteen years.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
The next eighteen years. Then he you're miles on this
may very Then he trained and he decided to become
a crime fighting vigilante instead of starting a government municipality
program that would have helped people more, and he became Batman. Superman.
There's a planet right called Crypton.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Oh, I was gonna say, I do Superman.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Oh, okay, you do Superman.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Desperate scientist, exploded planet loving couple Superman.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
Oh you did the poetic version of men.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
It's basically, yeah, there's a there's a there's a weird
alien planet that where people love crystals called Krypton.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
And they for some reason don't believe in climate change.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
They don't relate they do not believe in any kind
of climate change. So Durrell puts his baby in a
rocket ship like you do, and just he finds a
planet in the sky. He's like that one has a
bunch of cavemen farmers on it. Shoot it that way.
He shoots off his only son. The planet explodes. In
some versions he shoots off his son's dog as well.
It seems like a waste of resources study to send

(06:38):
Fido along. His alien kid lands in the middle of Kansas,
and somehow he finds the only non xenophobic couple in
the entirety of the state of Kansas. And I can
say that because I was born there. They make him
thrash wheat for eighteen years, and he one day finds
out that he can break combine real good, and that

(07:01):
means that he thinks he can save the world. So
he puts on a pair of red underpants and a
cape and he gat and he goes and catches a
plane outside of Metropolis, and there's a lovely reporter named
Leis Lane that goes, gee, golly whiz, you're Superman.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
It's interesting to me because both of them deal with death,
and both of them deal with early childhood trauma. However,
I think Superman's origin is because of man Pa and
because it happens when he's a baby Ergo in a
time he has no memory of. Superman's origin does feel

(07:34):
much more hopeful, whereas Batman's origin is reactive and desperate. Right,
it's a young child grieving. But it's interesting to me
that there is death and destruction in both origins.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
In most good origins there are name another one Spider Man,
that's true.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Name a non comic book.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
One Jesus, Yeah, Hercules.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, I was gonna say Lord of the Rings. Like
Frodo goes to live with Bilbo because his parents.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
You kind of need that moment of heartbreak to get
to triumph.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
It's very Disney as well, which is pulling, of course,
from a lot of classic literature, a lot of.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Myth Corn the Barbarians the same way.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, yeah, yes, very much.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
In the Robert Howard books, not the movie. He is
born on the battlefield. He's actually he is. Yes, he
is cut from his mother. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
I will say this, and I've said this for a
long time, and I know I've said this on this
podcast lots of times. Superman and Batman's origins are the
best part of their entire stories. And the weird thing
is that, like with Batman, the more he punches people,
the sadder he gets. Yeah yeah, and the less interesting
of a character he gets. Because again, to me, we

(08:49):
talked about this, you just want to be you want
to be, like, do deal with your trauma? Yeah, go
start a fuck, Go start an orphan, orphanage, Go donate
to the police, go do this, Like like, there's so
many better ways you can spend why don't you open.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
Up your mansion to people who need a place to sleep?

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, we're a Superman. It's interesting thing because to me,
I've always said, like, and I like Superman, but for me,
it's one of these things where like, one Superman becomes Superman,
he is like a mythic legend, and you just kind
of want to be like you just kind of want
to end that story that I told you, yeah, and
say and he saved the world.

Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, I get that, But I think so I want
to make two points.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
I think Superman's origin is not complete until he goes
to Metropolis and becomes Superman. I don't like it when
he becomes Superman before Metropolis.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
That's not what I was saying, you know.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
I understand that, But you're saying it's a complete story
because if you add it and he saves.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
The world's a story's over. It's over, yeah, which.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Is the perpetual second act thing. But I think it's
interdering that both of these origins have to deal with
adopted parents. There are two orphans, which is another classic
Grim's fairy tales type of thing.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Right, Like Superman is adopted by the Kent.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Bruce should have been adopted, but for some reason isn't. Ye,
he's rich, but we that's you're can't not rich enough
to dodge that.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
But but that's fair.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
In a much more like post Bronze Age reading, right,
he's adopted by Alfred.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yes, and that's Alfred. That is only a I would
say post nineteen ninety.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, I don't even mean legally adopted, but I mean
like Alfred becomes his parental figure. Yeah, which why I
say post Bronze Age. I definitely think, especially for the
time period, they're both very strong origins. I just think
Superman's appeals to me a little bit more because it's
not so.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Look, G D. Dower, you know, where I come on this. Yeah,
Superman's origin is the best origin in all of comic
books and the only one.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
In everything else is derivative of it, literally including back
first Superhero.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, but I will say when he was born he
an origin wasn't all there? Right? A lot of that
is pieces from the Superman riage. To me, the only
origin that comes close to Spider Man's.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
So I want to say that.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
If you don't know, and I'm sure you do on
our patreonhuh, we're doing a movie movie club. It's Patreon
dot com Sash.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Jawan j w I n never heard of this point.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
It's fantastic. You're gonna love it.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Really, we are.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Doing a movie club and we are currently watching through
all of the Chris Reeves Superman movies. He's the original
and hottest person to ever play Superman.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Okay, cool? I'd like to see him red on pants?

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yes, absolutely so what I and we just really he
watched the not not with only red under.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Pants. I did see someone some more somewhere in your timeline,
saw him run on.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Somewhere in my time?

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, when if you read my mind, can you read
my mind?

Speaker 2 (11:40):
I can read your mind?

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Superman in red under Pants.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
We just didn't know how you feel.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
We just stop it right now. We just did Superman too, and.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
There's two of these Superman movies. There's a book up, baby,
Oh boy.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
It's a long journey, yes, And so something point that
you brought up about some of my reactions to watching
it for the first time was this is very much
an adaptation of silver age Superman and silverage Superman characters,
which means it doesn't quite meet with our modern sensibilities.
And what's interesting about discussing, discussing, particularly their origins, is
we have almost one hundred years of comic book history

(12:16):
redoing and redoing and films and television and animation redoing
it and redoing and redoing to death that like Russell
Goule is.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Part of Batman's origin, now you know. And so we
have a.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Much deeper depth of knowledge and bench of understanding of
these characters than people did when they were first meeting them.
But I do think it's interesting that I think you
can put a direct line to their origin to like
how they decide to become, like like how they express
themselves as heroes.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Say that again, or I mean, you step that out further,
I want to hear your.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
So it's it's basically an exercise in like how do
you deal with your trauma and your grief? Right, Like
Superman takes the loss of the genocide of his entire
people basically.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Severe, although he wasn't aware when he's no.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
But he so for him, the loss is a concept
and it's that way of responsibility.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
But he's very It's the idea that like, as soon
as he discovers his power, as he realizes that he's alone, yes,
and that's the only one.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Like this, Yes, but he because of the people who
raised him, he expresses that into goodness. Right, He's always
a helper. Clark Kent is a helper even before Superman
is helper. But it's just why he goes into journalism
because they uphold this nineteen fifties idea that journalism is
full of ethics.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
It's also this thing where and I think we lose
this in this modern retelling of like how every universe
has to be connected and blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah,
because like the X Men, there is something very powerful
in the idea that Superman is the only superhero.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Can you imagine if something if you're like hanging off
a bridge and you're going to die and you're like
you're just like save me, Superman, Save me Superman, and
then Batman shows up.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Well, well, when you think about like the modern DC universe,
there's a thousand people that could save you.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, maybe Marsha, I'll take Busha Man.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, exactly, there's a million. Let's say it freaks out there,
but there's something, there's something like really inherently powerful and
it really creates in that origin when it's when Superman
is the only superpowered being in his entire universe.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
It also makes that same weight of responsibility, that tragic
flaw heavier because he can't save it.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Everyone leans into that godlike thing. Because again, that's the
part of Superman that I think is so fascinating, is
that this man has absolute power mythology and not corrupted absolutely.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I think we're going to talk a
little bit this about this at a later date, but
I think that's part of the reason why there's always
this poll to do evil Superman, and I think it's.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
Lazy and boring.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
But Batman is the opposite of that, and I say,
this is someone I didn't lose my parents as young
as Bruce Wayne, but like my father died when I
was a teenager, So like I understand, I understand that
type of grief when your brain is really squishy, and
I understand why it makes children angry, but it's not
cute when you're forty seven years old. And if you
listen to our My Batman timeline, my Batman is forty

(15:06):
seven years old. Bruce Wayne took all of those feelings
and that feeling of helplessness and he expresses it as
violence against other people.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Well, let's I want to touch on that. Yeah, But
the thing is, I'm going to tell you that there
is a piece that we're missing about Batman. And I'm
certain everybody's screaming about it in my mind. So I
want to really bring this out. But we'll bring this
back after our commercial messages. Gee, Gish lesson, we're back.
Is Superman better than Batman? Well, we've been pretty harsh

(15:37):
on Batman, but we have to talk about the good
of Batman. I'm sorry, but we got to do it
to be fair.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
There's just also a lot more Batman that we've consumed,
more Batman stuff.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
The thing about Batman is that Batman is about the
pinnacle of human achievement.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yes, which is very early twentieth century, and it's also
very American.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
The fact that he built himself.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
Now from the it's you like about Iron Man as well.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
You have to ignore that he had a billion dollars
in his main cap.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, you have to understand, you have to ignore that
white male privilege.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
But I'm saying that, like, this is a man.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Who, through sheer discipline and strength of will.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Became the greatest fighter in the greatest Detective. It's very
you all like about Batman. It's Sherlock Holmes meet and Zorrow.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, yeah, undred percent, like he's the best, like he
it's adventure. It's the Sherlock Holmes who fights on the rocket.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
And the fact that he It's interesting because weirdly Batman.
How many people might think I'm crazy. I actually think
Batman works better in a shared universe than not.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
I do too, because he's if he's too isolated, he's weird,
he's scared, which is what we like about the Batman family.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Whereas like when when he's in a shared universe, when
he's in a Justice League, it is this thing where
you're kind of impressed that like this human being is
so good that he'd leveled up to like godly.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
That he can let he can stand alongside like it's
a flash and green lantern as a peer and a leader.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
It's the story of Prometheus.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yes, still fire from the God.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
Because it's that thing of and again. And that's sort
of like the inherent function in both of them is
that Batman is Prometheus. That it's like, oh, if you
work hard enough, you can become godlike, whereas Superman is
the god that acts human.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
But yes, then is Hermes.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
But Superman is so godly that we all want to
be him. Yes, we don't want to be Batman. And
if you do, I better helped him. Yeah. So so
it's interesting. So like you were talking to their idea
of like how they crime fight.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, I have.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
I've said this a couple of times. So look, I'm
not I know there's some idiot out there that's going
to be oh he means he's coming whatever, shut up.
I've written some comic books. You've written some comic books've
written some television writs, some movies, blah blah blah blah.
I have this idea, my preferred I was Superman is
that he never hits anybody, and that he goes out

(18:04):
of his way to not hit someone because he is
so overpowered. Yeah, and I just think he's a good
enough guy that he would not punch you, because he
would knock you to sadder.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
But you're what you're hitting on a bit is you're
hitting on the the sort of conflict of modern superhero comics,
which is like you do read superhero comics to watch
people punch other in the face. Like I don't not
pick up a comicson.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
But I have that theory. I had that theory where
like I'm I'm very much in the ice. So like
when I wrote my Superman analog character Captain Traffic and
Super best Friend, Yeah, I very much made it a
point that the only people that he ever remember that
carms are the monsters. Yeah, he never touches the only

(18:52):
In fact, there is a sistic scene where I let him,
he lets one of his other teammates, Yeah, hit the villain. Yeah,
because I was very much like, if you're this overpower.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Now that person's spine is coming out through their back.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Well, I also just don't think that a person with
this moral center and these powers if the idea is
that he used to show us a path to another level,
he would not resort to violence.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Right, Like if you follow the idea that he was
created by two Jewish men and thus is a Moses.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
Hey godhead analog, yeah, yeah, worriding us through the desert
of this life.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Whereas like it is in the opposite of that is that,
like I feel like a lot of times, the modern
take of Batman is very much this idea of how
cruel can he be.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
It's interesting because I feel like modern Batman films fall
into the same trap that modern James Bond has fallen into,
where they spend half of the movie being told by
everyone around them who loves them stop doing this, and
it's through their own pig headedness that they keep doing it.

Speaker 3 (19:58):
And I think that can be difficult to root.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
For sure.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
I think they're not to rewrite everyone who's ever written
bat Batman movie for the last ten years, but I
think I think we need to shift that narrative maybe
to be like, yeah, we all know it's a we
all know Batman is a stupid name and dressing him
like a bat is a stupid idea. But I want
to invest in the fantasy that him being Batman is
the right thing to do. And I think a clear
example of that, and we can shift into this conversation

(20:23):
is the introduction of Robin and the larger Batman family.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Well, I want to just like name it. I actually
think the modern version of that is Krysonolan films. Yeah.
The idea of the Chrysonolan films is that he realizes
that this is not his entire life. He can only
do this for a certain He's the whole idea of
chrysonal and Batman. And I think it's like, you know,
we always see like the realistic reality. But the one
real thing that I think chrisonal And baked into there because.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
That's no like cartilage left in his knees, was that.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
A real human could not do that forever. And that
so this Batman, even that Batman begins walks into his
career being like, I have to figure out a way
to create a system so that I'm not Batman forever. Yes, yeah,
because I'm Batman, I'm going Yes, I can never be
Val Kilmer and I've never I will never be as

(21:12):
good looking as him now, I mean now of us
will and never will will never be that Huckleberry and
so so, but so, I think that's the idea. So yes,
let's talk about the sidekicks in here. I think, and
you have said, who has the better supporting character?

Speaker 3 (21:26):
You have said this on the podcast before.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Batman's greatest achievement is Dick Grayson and him being a
functional human being. I think the best thing Batman ever does,
and it's not something Batman does, it's something Bruce Wayne
does because he's trying to kill his inner child, is
adopt children and open up his I don't think turning
kids into Robin is a great idea if we lived

(21:50):
in the real world, that's a that's child abuse and
that's Psycho says. But in the fantasy world, I think,
I think it's the most interesting thing he does. And
I think as a result of that, it's really easy
to defer to Batman as having the best supporting characters. However, Yeah,
and I'm talking only I'm not talking villains, that's a
different question. I'm talking like allies and stuff. I think

(22:12):
the cast of Superman supporting characters, and I'm largely leaning
on the Daily Planet for this, they are his supporting
characters are more dynamic interesting individuals like Lois Lane is
very different from Superman, Jimmy Olsen is very different from
Lois Lane, Perry White is very different from Jimmy Olsen,
whereas like all the Robins share a lot of characteristics

(22:33):
that have only kind of been untangled and diversified in
the last five ten years. Yeah, it's sending with the
Batgirls unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, because it's interesting because like most of Superman's supporting
cast were kind of almost fully baked in the seventies.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
And I don't know if that's because they're adults versus
like most of the Robins didn't come along until the
eighties and nineties.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Because they're all Clark's coworkers. Yeah, they're all adults.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
But I like the Robin's bed. I understand that's just
that's my preference, That is my bias. But I can
understand into LEU that the Superman cast is more interesting.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
I think for this one, if we wanted it, I would.
I think I would accually ask I think Batman has
the better supporting cast simply because they're all broken. Yeah,
so they're more interesting, Whereas, like there is an interesting
thing the Superman supporting cast is a little dated But
the interesting thing about the Superman supporting cast, especially when
you look at Perry White, the editor in chief of
the Daily Planet. Yeah, Lois Lane, his his wife girlfriend Colin,

(23:26):
and Jimmy Olsen his best friend, is that they're all
people that Superman admirers. You have Lois Lane, the woman
that will go into a war zone, who is the
bravest person, who is braver than any person he's ever
met in his entire life, and she has no power,
so he that's why he fell in love with her
because he's so impressed by her. You have Perry White,

(23:47):
the person that will Woodward D. Bernstein in story down
Lex Lure.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
If you don't understand that reference, you've homework to do.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, he doesn't care what it does to his reputation.
He will publish the truth.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
Absolutely, it's what that's what journalism should be.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yes. And then you have Jimmy, who, uh. The interesting
thing about Jimmy is that and it depends it's been
it's been goodness and enthusiasm he is, he's like. The
interesting thing is that Jimmy is like sort of the
wink back to Small Hill. Yes, he's the g golly, Yes, Yeah,
he's ther g golly, but he's also brave too. He
will go for the shot and he will go for
the thing. But like Superman loves him because unlike Lois

(24:26):
Lane who met Superman and was scared but also was
like gimme the story and Perry White who was like
gimmy the story, Jimmy also meets Superman and goes, wow, Wow,
do you need a friend? Yeah? Yeah, And so that's
that's that, you know, So it's.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Kind of it's heart, it's part. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
So like that's the interesting thing.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
You see a lot of those Jimmy character, especially some
of the more Gigalli ones. We've seen them translated to
John Kent now that John is a character in the universe.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
And so that's the interesting they're a little bit more dated.
But yes, I I agree with you that the Robins especially, and.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
The Robins are the easiest ones to see yourself to
self insert with as well.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
I mean, let's go here, I know you're a big
where would you say for you just put a put
a year on it? What year or what version of
the Batman supporting guest, Because again, the problem with the
Batman supporting guest now is that there's a million of them.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
I can tell you exactly what you're my preferred Batman
film and who's in it?

Speaker 1 (25:23):
Is that two thousand to two thousand and two. Okay,
so it's Batman.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Like post No Man's Land, post No Man's Land, but
it's basically the No Man's Land cast. It's Batman.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
I don't mind Catwoman in the mix, but I definitely
think Catwoman is more chaotic evil, yeah, or maybe neutral evil.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Like a neutral antagonist.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, like I think I think Bruce and Selena love
each other. But I do think Catwoman is antithetical to Batman.
Got it, Dick Grayson night Wing. I don't mind Jason
Todd being alive. I don't think the Red Hood is
part of the Batman family. Tim Drake, Robin Oracle, Barbara Gordon,
Cassandra kne.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Batgirl, Alfred in the Commission Gordon and Chemishioner Gordon. That's
my Batman family.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
I agree. It's my favorite version too.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
I don't need anyone else. I could even cut Jason Todd.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Honestly, I would cut Jason Todd. It's enough that it's
enough that you're like, everybody has a role that's distinct, yeah,
and nobody is doubling.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, And I don't even mean that in terms of like, oh,
there's two Robins. I mean in terms of like the
purpose they serve, Like Tim Drake still serves the same
purpose as Damian Wayne, which is why they're weird.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Together, because I actually think and I like Damian Wayne.
I know you do, but I have always thought that
the more interesting Robins are that they're all orphans like Bruce. Yeah,
I don't like that Bruce has a bios a biological sign.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
I'm the same way.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, yeah, And I would actually be okay with it
if Damien was just Talia's child with another dude that
Talia brought to Bruce and was like, I need your
goodness to race.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
I would actually find that more interesting because Bruce can.
I don't think Bruce is in love with Talia, but
I think Pauli is like that girl that you get
really hot for when you're in college and you'll always
kind of think about her.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
But I think I think.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Selena is like his soulmate if you believe in mats,
and he can see the goodness in her, which is
why he won't let her go, and I could that
would be more interesting to be narratively with David.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
But anyway, let's talk about the rogue sclety, the opposite
of their sporting I mean, yeah, move on. Batman has
the best rogue gallery in all common He.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Has a villain called Pranksters.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
Superman does have a handful of pretty cool villains. He
he has Brainiac Chef. He has better villains than people
give it out to. I would even say the Doomsday
at this point has become a great Superman villain. Yeah, yeah,
but yes, he has brainiac General Bizarro Bizarrow.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Bizarro is such a good villain.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
I also love I like Bizarro because Bizarro is like
innocent chaos. Like I don't think Bizarrow he's an agent
of chaos, but I don't think he's evil.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Long forgotten villain who I think is really great is
a nineties villain called Conduit. And he he wanted to
kill Clark Kent, not Superman. That's interesting, and then along
the way he figured out that Superman was Clark Kent.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
That'd be a great he was the idea it would
be a great. Copyright Jason Well.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Dan Jurgens is the one of Mate, but he poisoned
himself with kryptonite. Give himself powers.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Look, I'll say this with my whole Jess.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
I think you could email Dan Jurgons and he would
say sure, okay, So let me ask you this then,
who is the better leader of the Justice League. And
I'm frankly more invested in your opinion than mine because
you've read more Justice League than me.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Here's the real answer, neither.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
Who's a better leader than both of them?

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Naywing, I mean correct?

Speaker 3 (28:32):
But if I and this is the.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Wing is I've said this for years, I will repeat
it again and again. You can go back to our
Dick Grayson in the episode Batman's greatest success is this
is the answer that got me the job. A dcl
was going to bring that up. Yeah, Batman's greatest success
is that he took a scared little eight year old
boy and he raised them so well and trained him
so well that he not only is he a functioning
human being, he is destined to be the leader of

(28:55):
the Justice League. Yeah, he's the only person in the
DC universe that everybody will listen to because he's hot.
Batman Batman was his dad, and then he had two
really rad uncles that have a lot to do with
the Dumbring that is Commissioner Gordon and Superman.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
But also he had grandpa Alfred.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, Alfred was his grandpa. Yeah yeah, yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Don't even know, Like when Bruce couldn't handle him emotionally,
Alfred was like, but all.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
All those Silver Age World's Finest Adventures where Batman, Superman
and Robin. So that means that Robin was like almost
every Saturday hanging out with Superman. Yeah, so that rubbed
off on him.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
And then coming back and macinon Barborough.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
His name comes from Superman flair. Yeah, Nan wearing flamers
is a Crotonian legit, but like flamebir is such an
answer is yes, But between the two of them, it's
weirdly they need each other.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, like you kind of need them as co leaders
or you need one as the ex.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Superman doesn't know. Superman is the public facing leader, hondo person,
Batman is the clo he's the strategist. So it's a part.
So I would honestly the answer is naming. They both
contributed to that, so it's all good.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
There are fifty to fifty Okay.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
So let's let's dig down into this. Superman arguably represents
the everyman. Right. Superman is and we've talked about this before,
a social justice warrior, and Superman's first adventure he's fighting
a landlord.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Yeah yeah, yeah, which I support this idea.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, he fights a mayor to get a man off
death rout.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, and then he punches a lion.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Oh and he punches there's a man who is abusing
his wife and he beats that's right.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, yeah, versus Batman, who is often called to the
scene of a crime when diamonds are stolen or fine artist.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
So yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
So he is arguably a representation of the wealthy elite.
So it's interesting to me that that Batman is I mean,
let's call it what it is. Batman's a more popular character,
and I wonder if that is because it plays into
the fantasy of how everybody thinks one day they're going
to win the law, they're going to come into their fortune.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
And that's a sex your idea getting the cat out
of the tree.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
It's also this violence is sexy.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
I mean, and let's not open the breaking bad debate, but.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yes, you know, and I will say it here. Simple
minds breeds, simple pleasures, and simple minds love explosions and
beat him ups Superman. You got to think about it
a little bit. It's philosophical. Yeah, the best Superman stories
are very philosophical because you defeat Superman by defeating his heart.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Well, one of the greatest Superman stories I never told
is the Twelve Labors of Ricula.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
That man, you just stress him out. Yeah, yeah, you know,
and again, yeah, think about it like Superman's Like I'm
gonna say right here, the greatest Superman story ever written
is All Star Superman. Yeah, written by Grant Morrison. It's
the greatest Superman story ever written.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
First comic I ever.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
And he wins the day by sacrificing himself. That's how
he wins.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
He doesn't punch anybody. Yeah, he flies into the sun
and make sure that the sun stays on. Yeah, that's
how he wins. And but the sacrifice is that he's
gonna have to stay in the sun for the rest
of his life. It's the only way he's gonna do it.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
I love that piece of art. It always reminds me
of this old like Soviet propaganda work posters.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, where he's like years Yeah, it's such a great
piece of art. Yeah, Yeah, I mean, the greatest Batman story.
One of the greatest is The Dark Knight Returns. Is
you want to go to ending? Yeah, and it's by
Frank Miller. And the ending of that is that Batman
defeats Superman by injecting him with Kryptonite and then beating
the crap out of a whole bunch of people, and
then he has to fake his death because he's so

(32:32):
much of an outlaw that he can't operate within the law. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
One of the stories I like, and one of them
is a Batman story, you know. So I just think
it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
I just think it's interesting that the everyman's story is
not necessarily the one that resonates because it's basically a
god looking after the masses. Like it's the same thing
that we were talking about in Armathology episode right, Like,
it's it's Zeus coming down to defend you from whoever.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, it's the weird It's the thing while say, we're
like weirdly as we get further into the twenty first century,
and I look forward to all the comments that say,
how much of a SOCIALI slam? But whatever, I don't
care that I find Superman for being a character that
is so tied to the depression. Yeah, and I say

(33:18):
this as a man who wants to see a Superman
movie set during the depression. I agree because I think
it would be so awesome. Yeah, and he's so built
for it. I find that Superman feels more timeless, whereas
I kind of feel like Batman's prime era that he
really worked in was the nineteen eighties, yes, and ever

(33:39):
and into the nineties and everything since the eighties, I
really feel like it's we've coming to this point where
you're just like, you're acting more and more like Lex Luthor,
who is the villain, Like you really, you really should
be trying to help people out more instead of beating
the epic crap out of mooks who just trying to

(34:00):
get a paycheck.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, That's the other thing I was gonna
say about. I meant to bring up a little bit
earlier about sort of Batman and the willthy elite thing
is like most people, not everyone. There's obviously white collar crime,
but most of the people who do the kind of
thing that Batman is gonna be hunting you down to
do at night are not people who have made the
best choices or had the most things afforded to them,

(34:23):
and Bruce Wayne, the richest person in Gotham, is punching
them in the teeth.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
There's a piece of Batman that I think has really
been lost, and it used to be you would you
would see this in the Denny O'Neil stories all the time,
that Batman the animated series, which is, in my opinion,
the greatstl standard, the greatest adaptation of Batman has ever been. Yeah.
It it's the greatest piece of Batman medium that's ever
been made, even better than any of the comic books.

(34:48):
And there used to be this piece that has been
lost in modern day. And you would always meet some
guy and they'd be like and they would say, oh Man, Like, yeah,
Batman gave me this card to come to Wayne Enterprises.
Oh yes, and then I got hired and I've been
the janner for the lat and it's changed my life.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
You know, how it continues.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
The way it still happens in modern comics is it's
usually Bruce Wayne gets the kid of that person, or
if there is an encounter a young person, they get
that Wayne scholarship.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, I just find it doesn't happen anymore. But all right,
So we got a bunch more about Superman and Batman
and talk about and we'll talk about it right over this.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Same Bat time, same batpod. It's geek history lesson, and
we are talking about Superman and Batman, comparing and contrasting
and deciding which one is better, because this is the
Internet and we deal in absolutes, just like the Sith.
So we've talked a lot about Superman and Clerk Kent
and Bruce Wayne and Batman and the world around them.
But now I want to open the lens up even
more and ask you, Jason, if you are a citizen

(35:50):
living in the DC universe Gotham v. Metropolis, where are
you living? Because honestly, if both of them have these
superheroes living in them, and both of them to see
this level of destruction that they seem to see, both
are absolute hell holes to live in.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
I'm going to Opal City, which is Starman. Yeah, that's
Arts and it's kind of like Portland Fair. That's where
I'm going. You go on Metropolis. I don't think I
still to this day, don't understand why anyone lives in
the hell hole that is Metropolis because or excuse me,
Gotham toe because at least Metropolis has like cool.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Science yeah and sun.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah. Gotham it always rains and then if you saw
Matt Reeves the Batman, it floods. Yeah, and so like
you know, and I don't buy into the thing that
they're across the bay from each other.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
I don't either.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
I don't because Superman would just fly across the bay
and go help Gotham outa.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
No.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
To me, that's that's Keystone City and god Central City,
Central City.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah, I was gonna say Star State was like no Seattle.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
The thing I don't the thing I don't mind about
Keyston City and Central City is that that's Kansas City.
He does have a river that runs right through.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
The middle of it, yes, and the best barbecue in
the world.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yes, the world. But yeah, you're going to Metropol. You're
not living in Gotham City.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Why would you live in Gotham City, Like, let's seriously
do this thought experiment. Yeah, why would you live in
Gotham City?

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Because I've I've introduced this plan on this episode or
our previous episodes before. It's because the villains of Gotham
City have a hell of a pension plan.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's came out. If you survive,
If you survived, and you might lose all your teeth.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
If you survive, you might get like five bricks of
Nazi gold and that he's gonna set you up for
a while. But you've got to survive, and the Joker
might kill you.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Like, I'm trying to think of what would be like
a normy job that you would want to go to
Gotham for, and I guess to be a police.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Officer, except probably work for Wayne and.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
Except yeah, yeah, except also it's a very corrypt.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Police, you know. Now, the opposite side of it is
that you go to Metropolis, you're probably working for Lex Corp.
Or The Daily Plan, and that's like working for like
Mark Zuckerberg. So yeah, you might be shot in the
face in your office at any point.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Or you might be exploded to become a super villain yourself.
You're you're almost certainly getting exposed to grips in it. Kay, Okay,
then let.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Me let's get personal. Then Clark and Lewis classic couple. Yeah,
arguably the blueprint for all super couples, especially if you
look at it through a long lens.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Of Invincible or Bruce and Selena the will they won't?
They barely finally an official couple.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Look, I'm going to say this, Bruce and Selene should
be married. I agree, I agree, ridiculous that they are not. Yeah,
this is no, this is another one of the contests.
It's Clark and Lewis, absolutely clerks. They are the gold stand,
so much to the point that they made a show
called Superman and Lois that ran for four seasons that
was about them being married with I Superman. There's no

(38:35):
Batman and Catwoman show.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
I believe when we did our best DC couples ever,
we mulliganed Clark and Lewis.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Because they are automatically the best couple. Yeah, no, it's
no contest.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
I do like when they set them up on double
dates though, that's always a storyline.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
That makes me. That makes me very happy. Who has
a better work life balance?

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well, one of them doesn't work. Well.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
I mean, I don't mean, I don't necessarily mean that
he's the CEO of way this is what are you
joking about?

Speaker 3 (39:01):
He definitely works and doesn't take a kickback. Now that
I meant more to talk about, sort of like the
Bruce Wayne v Batan Superman, you know.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
The bad version of it. Bruce barely goes the Wayne enterprises.
Clark does do his day job. He's bad at it,
and he turns out a lot of articles late. Perry
doesn't really like him that much, but.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
He's a good writer. But he's a good so he
gets away with that.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
That's why Perry lets him get away with it, because
he's as good a writer as Lois Lane. He's not
as good as Lois, he's almost as good as Lois.
So even though he's not in the office, Perry lets
him get away with it. Bruce barely goes the way enter.
He maybe goes the Winnings what lucias Fox is for
once every two weeks. But Bruce literally lives in the
bat Cave.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
I've always thought that if he wanted something to do
with Tim Drake and you wanted to mature him, because
now he's like.

Speaker 3 (39:47):
Thirty five or whatever, and Dick is supposed to be
like twenty one.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
No, No, Tim is easily in his mid twenties at
this point.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
No, in Cannon, he's I think eighteen.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
About Kim, I know, but I'm Grayson's closing it on four.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
They were like they were like Dick Grayson is twenty one.
I'm like Dick Grison is thirty four, and you will
not Convince.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
And Superman both have teenage sons. Batman and Superman are
in their late forties at the yeah, forty seven.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
I really think Tim as the smart Robin, should should
have yes or should have a powerful position at Wayne Enterprises.
I think that would be such an organic and interesting
use of his character.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
I think the better question is that I.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
And I know at various times the Robins have been
involved in Waye Enterprises.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Don't at me, Clark takes time off and Bruce does not.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
Yeah, Clark goes on vacation.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yep. Clark also like Dan Jurgen said this to me once,
you know, on a comic book panel. Yeah, you know,
great Superman writer of all time.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Dan Jergens has written and drawn more pages than anyone else.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
I asked him a question once where I was like,
what do you think Superman does on a perfect Sunday morning?
Oh my god, I remember that, and Dan told me
that he was like, He's like, I think he has
his favorite diner that he goes to and orders, you know,
pancake and egg classic American breakfast, and he goes there
and like reads the news, reads his favorite newspaper that
is not the Daily Planet. And everybody in the diner
knows him because he does this every Sunday morning and

(41:06):
he tips well, and he tips and he and he
leaves a huge hundred dollars tip every time he does it.
And so everybody was like, oh, here comes Clark and
he has this. You know. That's so he knows how
to take time. And I think he does it by himself.
He does it separate of Lois. I think so, because
I think that's Lois is like hot yoga morning or
whatever she wants to do. Yea's going to do. Lowis
is going to do taekwondo or something.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Yeah yeah crath mcgof, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
That's what loves.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
I actually believe if Superman had no superpowers that Lowis
could take him in a fight. I think she is
a technically a better fight percent percent. Just to put
this idea to bed, I know we've talked about another
pods before, but we missed. We didn't touch on it
here right now, do you buy the Clark is his
real identity and Batman is his real identity argument of
foot all or do you think it's more complicated than that.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Okay, explain what you mean by the first statement with Superman.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
So a lot of people when they compare and contrast
Batman and Superman, they're like, well, Batman is the real person,
Bruce Wayne is the mask, and they're like, Clark Ken
is the real person and Superman is the mask.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
No, I agree, I disagree with that. I think Clark
Ken is the mask interesting, and I think Superman is
who he really is. I think I think Clark is
who he needs to be to hide it, and I
think so.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
Clark is who he wants to be.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
No. Interesting, No, I think it's just like Peter Parker.
I think when Peter Parker puts on the Spider Man mask,
he becomes free. That's why he becomes jokes, sarcastic. Yeah,
he grew up as a high school he was bullied,
so he couldn't be himself. So I think he couldn't
express himself. I think that's fully expressed in himself. I
think that was Superman as well. I think there is
a version of Clark that people know and it is him. Yeah,

(42:47):
but it's sort of like the professional him.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
It's the Disney version of yourself. Yeah, it's sort of
like the work version of him. Whereas I think Superman
is who he is. Yeah, he's completely.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Uninhibited, Yeah, because he's us dorky as Superman. Yes, you know,
and that's on purpose. Whereas like, yes, I don't think
Bruce Wayne has existed since Bruce was eight years old.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
Yeah, I agree, Batman.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Is who Bruce Wayne is. Yeah. And it's to the
point where, like we've talked about this before, we're like,
I actually think Bruce is a sexual.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
I think Bruce I do too. I just think he
can't be bothered.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
I don't think Bruce cares about friendships. I don't think
Bruce cares about bathing. I think he's just like Batman
is all it is, crime is all it is, let's go.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, and he cares about the kids because they're an
extension of Batman exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Like anything that's not Batman, he doesn't give it. That's
why there's all these stories where like he doesn't give
a damn but way Enterpriz is in the toilet.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
I mean I believe that, yeah, but I don't believe
the ones where he doesn't give a damn about Alfred.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
I do not buy that.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
No, because Alfred is his dad.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
I think he ignores Alfred a lot.

Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, yes, but I don't think he sees it as cruel. Yeah,
because he's just too focused.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Okay, I think I think, you know, let's let's find out.
Let's find a question.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
I've got, I've got the one last question.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Okay, in real life, do you want to lead your life?

Speaker 2 (43:59):
More?

Speaker 3 (44:00):
Are like the Big Blue Boy Scout or the Dark Knight.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Oh my god, come on, it's so interesting because it
is you put and you put any thought into, like
the real world. The last thing.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah, but you and I know you, and I know
people would.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Say and listen, I like Batman. I like Batman too,
But listeners, I want to say, if any of you
are out there are like I want to be Batman,
I really think you got to examine your life because
you for over twenty five. One that means your parents
are dead.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Two, that means you're spending most of your nights in
a dirty alley beating. Your fist is in people's skulls,
there's teeth getting in your knuckles, and most people don't
like you.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah, they're scared to me.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Honestly, they know. Even the people that know Bruce don't
like you.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
You know why Superman is Batman's best friend because.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Because he sees what he really is.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Well, because Clark is the only one that has patience. Yeah,
that's why they're best. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
The reason I don't by the Wonder Woman Batman romance
because Diana wouldn't put up with that.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Well, she punched him right in the face.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
That's the thing is that the beauty in Superman is
that Superman always sees the best nuss and so he
sees the best in Batman. Yeah, that's why he's friends
with Batman. Batman is friends with Superman because it's strategic. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah, because Superman was powerful being on the planet exactly.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah. So Batman's like, I need that nuclear bomb in
my back pocket.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
I do think though, he catches himself because I do
think Clark gives him the feel goods.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
I think so because he's a nice man. I think
so too. Yeah, yeah, I think he can relax around Clark.
But that's the real reason for their friendship. For Batman,
it's tactical, and for Clark, it's like Clark Clark is
like Clark is the guy. He's like, no, no, guys.
And then to the rest of the Just League, Clark's
like no guys. He means, well, yeah, yeah, and they're
just like are you out of it? Like no, I

(45:47):
absolutely Arrol's like, are you out of your mind? Always
like having a breakdown.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
I absolutely do believe that that Batman has like a
basically a kill file on everybody. But nothing about that
surprise he like, nothing about that storyline shocks me.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
But what I think you want to be Superman? Of
course Superman also has There's a when you ask, like,
what superpowers do you want? There's a reason why most
people say Superman, Yes, he has the best powers.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Yeah, well he kind of has all the main ones.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
He's in vulnerable, he can see through strong, He's gonna
live forever. It's Superman, and.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
He's married to Lois Lane. What more could you want?

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Like, the only thing that Batman has that you want
is the money, money in the car.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
Increasing Well, I don't know by that.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
But I what I think, what I think you've really
hit on in particularly you're talking about the friendships, is
that even though these characters are not intended to be
in a shared universe, they do compliment each other because
they contrast each other. They work together, and they are
narratively interesting together because they serve the jobs of being
literary foils.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
They are the opposite of each other.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
They serve different functions narratively, and that is why they
are compelling to see come together. And it's ultimately, this
is apples and oranges. It's ultimately why one is not
better than the other.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
And there is no no opinion is right and no
opinion is wrong. It's just references are what they are opinions.
But I will say that Superman is better than Batman
for one simple reason. I know we've been leaving heavily Superman,
but I don't know. It's pretty obvious. There are great
Batman stories, there's great Batman movies. I enjoy a lot

(47:17):
of them. I enjoy a lot of Superman, a lot
of them, a lot of them. But when you read
the two stories, you read as you read a Superman
story and you go wow, Superman does something it makes
your heart grow big, or you're like, oh wow, he
flew around the world, he saved all those people. Oh man,

(47:37):
he loves Lois. It's a wow. It's a wow. You
read a Batman story and your reaction coming out of
Batman story is that's fed up. Oh no, I'm saying
you're like, you're like Joker shot the robin. Yeah yeah,
Gotham City destroyed it an earthquake. Great story, though great

(47:59):
was true at an Arkhimu asylum and he had to
eat a rat. That's up, and I want a feeling
of Wow, there's a time and place for it. That's
effed up. Yeah, but all the Batman stories are, that's
effed up.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
I also just want to leave in the note of
saying your opinions on these can change, and that's okay too.
Some things are for a reason and some things are
for a season.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
I want to live in a world where we work
towards hope, not in a world where we look towards pessimism. Yeah,
and that's Superman is hope and Batman is pascism. Batman,
you know the reason why you plan a lot because
you don't believe that things work out. Yeah, yeah, Superman
thinks things are working.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
That man's a prepper.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
You heard it here first.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
He has a bunker.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
He has a belt. He has a bunker, and his
belt was full of every contingency that he is the
ultimate prepper.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
He's a prepper.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, Superman is the ultimate hopeful. Yeah, he's optimism. He
thinks things are going to work out. I want to
believe things are going to work out.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
There, you go, things are going to work out because
Superman is.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
So Superman is better than Batman.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
And if you.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Want to check out some stories that illustrate just this,
you can go over to Geekistorylessen dot com slash recommended reading.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
We're gonna have a collection of some of our highest.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Recommended and reference here in this episode Batman and Superman
stories so that you can get your fixed on.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Both sides of the aisle. Jason, shall we do? What
have we learned today?

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (49:28):
What have we learned today?

Speaker 2 (49:29):
We need a sound effect for that? Well, we should
have the social media plugs. Where can I find GHL
on socio?

Speaker 1 (49:33):
You can find us on geek history lesson. You can
come argue with us as long as you follow us
on our polit.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
A Belton and go over to Patreon dot com slash
John and jwii in and join the Superman Movie Club.
We're going. Superman three is next commentary track we just did.
Superman two is a live stream and Superman four might
be a live streamer commentary. We haven't determined that yet.
TBD details stay tuned, schedules. What have we learned today?
Will We've learned Batman as a prepper.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
I was gonna say, I don't think anything sums us
up better than Batman is a prepper.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
Like Batman as a prepper. We've learned that Superman will
always believe the best in us, and that it means hope,
and it means hope, and we've learned well on this planet,
it's And we've also learned that it doesn't matter who
leads the Justice League because night Wing is.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Always exactly night Wing is always the best.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
Show that can whoooo and look at those leadership skills.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Whoa, it's not Bossy's leadership skills, thank.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
You so much. He's a man boss. There is there
something gonna say? Girl Boss is a boss man? It's
a boss man? Is that the way? Was that the
opposite of girl boss, the opposite of boss man?

Speaker 3 (50:41):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (50:42):
I don't know, That's what I'm asking here? Do you know? No,
you're not in with it, You're not with it with
the kids.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
No, I'm middle HB established that last episode it right,
So thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Catcher lesson the Superman is Better than Batman.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
I'm Jason, I'm Master Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason. Would
you please dismiss the class.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
We'll see you next week, same back podcast channel, same
probably not bad episode