July 14, 2023 • 49 mins
Welcome to the Lecker Book Club. Every month I’ll pick a newly released food related book and talk to the author about the process of writing it. I’ll also be cooking from the book and writing about that on Substack and Patreon. Join me there as well!
On the first edition of the Lecker Book Club: Maria Bradford’s Sweet Salone. Maria grew up in Sierra Leone and moved to Kent, UK in her late teens. Sweet Salone is the first English-language book of Sierra Leonean recipes published internationally, and in it Maria wanted to share the unique nature of the food of her home country, but also celebrate the country’s people, including her own family. But it wasn’t necessarily a smooth process writing the book, as you’ll hear her talk about.
We spoke about the culture shock she experienced on arriving in the UK; what it was like encountering strawberries and apples for the first time. But it was Maria’s deep-rooted curiosity about all kinds of food that eventually led her on a path to training at Leiths and setting up her fine-dining catering business, Shwen Shwen - a Krio phrase meaning ‘fancy’. It’s this outlook and experience that closely informs the recipes in the book: from traditional dishes learned from her mother and grandmother, to her very own brand of Afrofusion.
Sweet Salone is out now, published by Quadrille. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
On the first edition of the Lecker Book Club: Maria Bradford’s Sweet Salone. Maria grew up in Sierra Leone and moved to Kent, UK in her late teens. Sweet Salone is the first English-language book of Sierra Leonean recipes published internationally, and in it Maria wanted to share the unique nature of the food of her home country, but also celebrate the country’s people, including her own family. But it wasn’t necessarily a smooth process writing the book, as you’ll hear her talk about.
We spoke about the culture shock she experienced on arriving in the UK; what it was like encountering strawberries and apples for the first time. But it was Maria’s deep-rooted curiosity about all kinds of food that eventually led her on a path to training at Leiths and setting up her fine-dining catering business, Shwen Shwen - a Krio phrase meaning ‘fancy’. It’s this outlook and experience that closely informs the recipes in the book: from traditional dishes learned from her mother and grandmother, to her very own brand of Afrofusion.
Sweet Salone is out now, published by Quadrille. Find all of the Lecker Book Club reads on my Bookshop.org list.
Support Lecker by becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon, Apple Podcasts and now on Substack.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Before we start, I just wanted tolet you know that you can become
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(00:23):
This is Lecker, I'm Lucy Dearlove.
Welcome to the Lecker Book Club.
Every month I'll be pickinga newly released food related
book and talking to the authorabout the process of writing it.
I'll also be cooking from the book.
and writing about that on Substack andPatreon, you can join me there as well.
(00:44):
This month on the first editionof the Lecker Book Club,
Maria Bradford's Sweet Salone.
I would say it's a book that isfull of amazing, delicious recipes.
It's full of culture.
It's full of stories about amazing people.
It's full of things that you probablyI've never heard or known about, you
(01:06):
know, the background, the historyand that of Sierra Leone, really.
And it's full of ingredientsthat will just be calling you.
Say, cook me, cook me, cook me.
Maria grew up in Sierra Leone andmoved to Kent, UK, in her late teens.
Sweet Salone is the first Englishlanguage book of Sierra Leonean recipes.
(01:28):
And in it, Maria wanted to share theunique nature of the food in her home
country, but also celebrate the country'speople, including her own family.
But it wasn't necessarily asmooth process writing the book,
as you'll hear her talk about.
We spoke about the culture shock Mariaexperienced on arriving in the UK.
What it was like encountering strawberriesand apples for the first time.
(01:52):
But it was Maria's deep rooted curiosityabout all kinds of food that eventually
led her on a path to training at Leith'sCulinary School and setting up her
fine diner and catering business, ShwenShwen, a Krio phrase meaning fancy.
It's this outlook and experience thatclosely informs the recipes in the
book, from traditional dishes learnedfrom her mother and grandmother.
(02:13):
to her very own brand of Afrofusion.
I met Maria in her publisher'soffice a couple of weeks before
publication and we sat down with acopy of Sweet Salone in front of us.
Obviously, Maria felt a hugeresponsibility writing about Sierra
(02:34):
Leonean food in an environmentwhere it hasn't really been
widely written about before.
But...
It was also an extremely personalexperience writing this book that at
times came almost too close for comfort.
I'm always thinking, oh, am I goingto remember everything that I said?
Well,
I think it's fine
(02:54):
if you don't.
I hope I don't.
There's a lot.
Yeah, there's a lot.
There's a lot of writing.
And it's that thing when you'rewriting, you're sending bits.
By bit.
Bit by bit.
Bit by bit.
And all of a sudden your bitby bit turns into a book.
Yeah, okay, so that's how it felt.
Yeah.
Right, okay.
Because there's a lot of youin this book, isn't there?
(03:14):
Like a lot of you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how did that feel, towrite that much of yourself?
It's um, it's a bit difficult.
Yeah.
Writing about yourself.
I do enjoy writing about other people.
But not necessarily.
Myself.
I, you know, I don't mind writing aboutmy family and my grandmother and stuff.
Because I feel like there'salways so much to say about them.
(03:35):
But then when it comes toyou, you always feel like it's
drawing that line, isn't it?
Yeah.
Where you don't come acrossas me, me, me, me, me, almost.
Right.
But you're still kindof telling your story.
Yeah, and is there almost a sense thatyou want to, like, protect that as well?
Yeah, of course.
Absolutely.
Because, um, I'm, I'm, I've alwaysbeen, like, even on social media,
(03:57):
I'm very protective of my personalspace and, um, and, um, what I share.
Because I just feel like it'svery easy for people to just
say, oh yeah, I know her.
Yes!
Yeah.
And you just, like, you just wantto leave a little bit for yourself.
But then all of a sudden,it's all in a book.
It's like, oh, this is where I was born.
(04:18):
This is my date of birth.
That was a bit hard.
Because I'm just like,they've got my full name.
Nobody has, I've neverput any of my full name.
Yeah.
Like what's on my passport.
And all of a sudden, my full name,my date of birth, it's in the book.
I'm like...
So why did you choose to include it?
Because you could have left that out.
(04:39):
I could have, but I think
it I could have leftthat out, but, um, yeah.
I don't know why I chose to include it.
I didn't write it, I think...
You know, I've alwaysbeen guided about that.
But even in interviews, people dopush because I think people just
feel like they need to know you.
Yeah, that's so true.
(05:00):
They want to know you,they want to know you.
And there's a lot of question aboutchildhood and um, and stuff like that.
Yeah.
So, yeah, before you know it, you're giveninformation that you don't want to give.
People get you in a room and yourpublishers you feel comfortable,
yeah, go for your coffee.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
(05:21):
And before you know it, you're spilling,you're telling them everything.
Yeah.
Find the details.
Mother's maiden name..
First pet.
Do you think
you could have written this bookwithout getting that close to yourself?
No.
Um, because, um, it's, it's really,it's, it's like digging, digging deep,
(05:49):
but, and, um, and also there's a lotof positive obviously that I wanted to
write about, um, when it comes to mychildhood, but it's also writing about
reality and the reality comes fromwriting and Going into other places
and just writing about those things.
Um, you know, trying to besuperhero for everybody.
(06:11):
But you open up, there are people whoread that and it resonates with them.
Especially when it comes tolike, things like immigration
stories and stuff like that.
You know, there are lots ofmigrants, um, here in the UK
and other parts of the world.
And it's just like...
I'm sure we all have similar storiesand similar feelings and, um, this
book is very much written where you,you're missing home, you're missing
(06:37):
food, you're missing people and all ofthat get blended into one and you find
yourself in this new world, in this newspace and you're trying to find yourself.
And how do you find yourself?
You find yourself through food, throughthe things which is so familiar,
not finding that initially such a.
(06:57):
A rude awakening, like, it'sjust like, I'm in a new place.
Yeah.
And
is it that's how it feltwhen you first got here?
It Yeah,
it was, absolutely.
It's not just like you're learningabout a new place, isn't it?
You're also learning new food,new cuisine, new ingredients.
Yeah.
Not necessarily as acook, but as an eater.
(07:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Somebody who just loves to eat.
Somebody who's grown around food.
Somebody who's grown aroundlots of family members.
I grew up in a housewhere there's siblings.
There's my mom.
My grandmother, there's lots ofaunties, there's lots of uncles.
Everything was surrounded about, aroundfood and everything was surrounded
(07:39):
around, um, celebrating food.
And all of a sudden, there are newand exciting ingredients, of course.
Like, I've never had strawberry,I've never had blackberry, and that.
So it's all new and exciting,so you should be enjoying it.
But at the same time, you're not ableto enjoy it because you're missing.
You can't relate to it.
(07:59):
Now I can relate to strawberry.
You know, now I'm a Kentishwoman, so I can relate to it.
You have to, it's the law.
Yeah, it's the law, exactly.
Now I can relate to it, now it'slike, in the summer if I don't eat
strawberry, I'm like, what's happening?
You know, if I go away and there'sno, I'm sitting in Sierra Leone,
I should be enjoying it, I'm like.
I wish I was eating strawberries,you know, but it's such a, it's
(08:22):
such a strange thing, isn't it?
Yeah, and it's so interesting you talkabout an ingredient like strawberry like
that because I think in this countrythere's There's such a lens on like, foods
that are quote unquote exotic, or like,non native, which is kind of most of our
foods, to be honest, because we importso much, we don't really grow that much.
Yeah.
But then actually, like, I think it canbe really easy to forget for people who
(08:45):
don't broaden their kind of horizonsin terms of what food they're reading
about and people that they're...
Reading that everythingis exotic to someone.
Yeah.
So.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Everything.
And I should say the berrieswere like, even the apple.
Right, right.
Like apple.
Yeah.
We do have apple, but it's imported.
(09:06):
Yeah.
Okay.
And um, yeah, it doesn't taste the same.
Yeah.
And apple in Kent, it's quite crunchy.
Yeah.
It's so lovely.
And then, I never knew therewas so many varieties of apple.
So many.
I just thought there was eitherpink or green apple, and that's it.
Because that's all I've seen.
Yeah.
So all of a sudden, there'sthese different apples.
(09:27):
And then, the things thatare really familiar...
And when you do approach them,like the papaya, the mango, the
exotic fruit, they taste horrible.
So it's like a
twisted version of everything.
It's just like, whatthe hell is happening?
It's like, all of a sudden, what Iknow tastes disgusting and what I don't
(09:51):
know, the things that I don't know.
Everything is upside down.
The things that I don't know.
It has the most amazing taste ever.
So it's so good.
So you quickly startlearning about things.
Um, you start reading.
I've always loved reading anyway.
So you quickly start typingand googling or researching.
(10:13):
Not really googling, therewasn't that much googling.
Researching and asking a lot of questionsabout, and being really curious.
I've always been curiousabout food anyway.
So asking a lot of questions.
But it's also weird whenuh, Teenage person is asking
someone why is strawberry?
Yeah, you think how do you not know that?
(10:33):
How do you not know that?
And thinking, yeah, you,you think of something.
No, I'm not.
But just like, you wouldn'tknow what guayavis and you
wouldn't know what this is.
Right.
I'm just saying like,yeah, what is strawberry?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're asking becauseyou want to learn.
And you want to learn.
Exactly.
You want to learn.
And you want to know.
(10:53):
And you're thinkingthese are all new stuff.
But then again, you know, I always saythat's my superpower because I don't
only know about all the exotic stuff.
I also have new knowledge and newpower of knowing all this new stuff
that a lot of people don't know.
So yeah, you know, I'm the best.
I know everything.
I'm like my own Google Exactly So, youknow, you know everything so, you know
(11:19):
everything that you've grown up aroundYeah, all these amazing exotic ingredients
we also know all this new stuff that youkeep picking so everything keep being
exciting and Everything is exciting andit's only when you find that comfort
and that balance and you start settlingbecause it takes some time to do that.
So you take that balance, you settleand once you're settled and then you
(11:42):
start thinking, okay, and that takes areally long time, I'm not going to lie.
And then you start learning.
It's a process.
It's a process.
It's absolutely a process.
And I think it's muchbetter when you're younger.
Yeah.
Than when you're older.
Yeah.
So I always feel terrible for people.
In their twenties, thirties, forties,coming to a new place because, um, I
(12:07):
know it must be really difficult becauseyou're settled in your way and probably
people had jobs, like I have uncles andaunties and people who are travelling
and they've had jobs before, theyhad a life, they had a home, they had
respect, they had people who looked upto them and all of a sudden they find
themselves in a place where they'renobody and it's quite a lot to process.
(12:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
For an adult.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So you were a teenager when you camehere and you've stayed here since then.
Yeah.
So all of these kind of Kentishingredients and other ingredients of
other counties of the UK, when did youstart cooking with those ingredients?
(12:52):
My very first job that I hadwas at an Italian restaurant.
Oh, really?
Very first.
I was, um, at a college in, um, Tombridge.
And then I had a job at WestSmalling, where I lived.
It was an Italian, little, smallItalian high street restaurant.
And it was the very first place that Ireally started, like, with ingredients
(13:14):
and seeing more different stuff.
How amazing, simplicity of cookingand using different ingredients.
I was just there to wash dishes, but ofcourse I was asking a lot of questions and
just seeing, you know, what they're doing.
Why are you putting this?
And why are you doing that?
And all of that.
You know, some of them werevery open to talk about it.
Some of them were like, get out ofmy way, go face what you're doing.
(13:36):
But I was doing the washing and becauseI was so interested as well, I was um,
helping as well with washing vegetables.
Yeah, I'm prepping vegetables,washing vegetables and, you
know, taking supplies in.
So you get to see all of that, but thenI had to leave because I went to uni.
But that kind of love for cookingand at home, I was still, you know,
(13:58):
all of a sudden I did find like the,the thing that I was doing more of
cooking was peanut soup, which is a.
We used a lot of peanutsto do like stews and soups.
So peanut soup, I couldfind peanut butter easy.
And then I had to find the right chili.
Yeah.
It was only bad side.
We don't really use bad side.
So to get the heat, in fact, I startedwith the bigger ones, the bigger red
(14:22):
ones thinking that, Oh, that must be hot.
No, it's not.
And then you move slowerand then it's like, Oh.
And then you try it out and it'slike, too much seeds, not the same.
Still, like, there's something missing.
But it's a little bit closer to that.
And then, you know, back then,supermarkets didn't even sell
Scotch bonnet chili at all.
(14:43):
So you start moving, moving,and then you're like, Okay, I'll
settle in with the, you know, this.
It's fine.
I'll make do with it.
It will do for now, but then it's comfort.
And so every time you cook thatpeanuts, I cook that peanuts, introduce
it to friends and new friends andthat their eyes just pop open and
(15:05):
they're so excited by this new flavor.
Ooh, I didn't even know youcan do peanuts, peanut soup.
I didn't know you can put peanutsin a sauce with chicken and
spices and put rice with it.
And.
It tastes this amazing andthey kept calling it curry.
I'm like, it's got nothing to do withcurry is, but yeah, but it's not curry.
(15:25):
I said, we don't call it that.
We call it soup.
And of course, soup in the Europeancontext is very different to us because
soup is not necessarily what we drink.
We don't have soup culture.
So when you say soup, it's somethingthat you eat with something else.
Yes.
Okay.
So it's navigating.
I swear, it's like, do youwant to come out for soup?
(15:46):
What?
Yeah, and I put a bowl of tomatosoup in front of me and I'm
like, uh, Where's the rest of it?
Where's the rest of it?
Is this going with rice?
Oh no, you just drink it.
Oh.
That doesn't make sense to me.
That's not food.
You just drink
(16:07):
it?
It's a very fair comment.
And whilst I was at unialso, I was cooking a lot.
Yeah.
You know, experimenting with,um, ingredients and that.
And then I found Peckham.
Ah.
Because I was living in Kent, so Ididn't know there was Peckham existed.
So I was more coming to London,when we come to London site view,
(16:29):
and it was more central Londonand stuff, and then found Peckham.
The day that I found Peckham, oh myGod, it was like, How come nobody, this
has been paid, nobody thought to tellme there was a place where I can come.
And the insane thing was I gotoff the train at Peckham and
there was people speaking Krio.
(16:51):
Wow, okay.
Was that the first timethat you'd heard Krio?
The first
time, exactly.
Do you know, like, it was justlike, whoa, this is like, it was
just such an amazing feeling.
I could have cried, seriously.
It was just such...
An amazing feeling, the hustle, thebustle, it just felt like I was in
Sierra Leone and it just felt home andI'd found my new place and I could find
(17:16):
ingredients that I could relate to.
There was plantain, there was cassava,there was this, I had so many bags, you
know, I wanted to buy the whole pack andtake it with me and it was so exciting.
Of course, then I started doing abit of cooking, but not necessarily.
Professionally, whichis for friends and home.
I started cooking professionally 2017.
(17:37):
Okay, and so what led you tothat part of your journey?
What sort of sparkedyou to take that step?
It was a lot of compliments and alot of, um, bussing around by family
members because, um, I was alwaysmaking stuff and they were all like,
Oh, you know, you should do this.
You should do this.
And then my cousin got marriedand she wanted me to do the food.
(17:58):
And then I did the food forher wedding for 60 people.
Wow.
And it was so amazing.
Well, from the guests.
Um, everybody kept asking peoplethat I didn't know, asking for my
card, asking how they can contact me.
I was like, what?
Really?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And then 2017, I started my firstInstagram post of her wedding.
(18:20):
Just posted a little something of mycousin's wedding talking about it.
And I was actually really shockedby how many people were liking.
What I was doing.
Then, of course, that encourages you todo more, to experiment a bit more, but
I was still working because I was doingaccounting and finance, so I still had
a job that I was doing, doing that bitby bit and just posting and they just.
(18:44):
more and more excitement.
And then I thought, you know, my husbandwas like, maybe, you know, these drinks
that people have been telling youis really nice, the chili sauce and
all of that, maybe you should bottleit and we do try farmer's market.
So I did.
And farmer's market again was amassive shocker and eye opener.
We just did a taster.
I ran out that day of farmer's markets.
(19:06):
I had lots of drinks and I ranout, I ran out of all the chili
sauce, ran out of all the drinks.
That's amazing.
And yeah, and just, uh, The interestand the hunger for people to learn
about new stuff as well was just, and Ididn't know British people liked chili
that much until that farmer's market.
They were putting it on everything.
(19:26):
So I was just like, okay.
We might not sell anychilis here, but we love it.
Love it, yeah.
So I was just like, I can, okay.
So, yeah.
Started from there, but it's, again,still, you know, I had this thing where I,
maybe it's African in me, but I just like,I've studied for everything that called
myself, you know, I've gone to school,gone and had a degree, blah, blah, blah.
(19:49):
So I just felt like, you know, Ineeded to dig deeper into this food.
I know a lot about food.
I know a lot about ingredients and I cooka lot from recipes and that, but I wanted
to go to culinary school just to dig more.
So I went to Leiths.
Wow.
Okay.
And what was that like?
Very exciting.
(20:09):
Yeah.
I always thought I was academicuntil I got to later and I actually
realised I was made for cookingbecause everything just kind of, it
was like a puzzle fitting in perfectly.
That must have been such a kindof lovely realisation to be
like, this is where I need to be.
It was just, uh, the best thingand I remember him saying like,
it's going to be stressful.
(20:30):
Um, and then I neveronce found it stressful.
Wow.
The only thing I found stressfulwas getting there because I
live in Kent and it's in London.
But once I'm there, I neverever found it stressful.
For me, I felt like it was aplace where I could go and relax.
That's how it felt for me.
It was just.
Things just.
Yeah, and so what, what doesthe training at Leith's involve?
(20:51):
It's very classic, classicFrench, I should say.
Yes, it's very classic,very classic French.
So, well, from there, before I went I knewvery much, like, it was really important
to me to showcase Sierra Leonean food.
I'd written lots of...
Letters to different restaurantsand different African chefs before
I went there, because I reallywanted to gain an experience in an
(21:13):
African kitchen to see how it's done.
But I couldn't really get anyone tocome back and say, yes, we'll have you.
So, um, which is why I went there.
It made sense to me and it stillmakes sense to me because, um.
I needed to kind of polish on, Iwas making mayo, I didn't know the
science behind it, for example.
(21:35):
I was doing things that I didn'treally know the science behind, or
if they go wrong, how you correct it.
Um, and the reasoning for that.
I had a knife skills, you know,of cutting potato leaf with my
hand and doing it perfectly in atraditional Sierra Leonean way.
But, um, I didn't have a European knifeskills that was for chef, um, you know.
(21:55):
So, it was good.
So I went there and pick upthose skills and just blend it
in with what I knew already.
There also, I realized that therewas a massive space for what I do.
Yeah.
Because, um, there were lots oftimes where I really wanted to have
a conversation with tutors aboutmy food and what I know as food.
(22:18):
It was easy for them to haveconversation with the Italian, the
Spanish and that, but not as easy forthem to interact with me with food.
That was very much.
My culture, my food, food that will,just like a baby would know, for example.
So, that was a little bit frustrating,I'm not going to lie, because um,
Um, you're in a space where you'remeant to be learning about food.
(22:39):
So of course, you want everybody involvedin that space to know a bit more about
people coming from different angles.
Yeah.
But there was that shortcomings, which,which I've spoken to them about, um,
and that, there was that, which wasmissing, but it still didn't take
away the fact that I learnt a lot.
Yeah, of course.
And um, I learnt a lot and I learnt that.
(23:02):
Also, there's room for what I do, there'sspace for what I do, and I think it's
very, very important that I am in thisspace, because people need to know
that there are other people across.
the barrier of food, this foodchain or hierarchy that's been done.
There are other people on theother side of that, and their
(23:22):
voices need to be heard too.
Absolutely.
And, um, so, yeah, it just mademe want to push even further.
Yeah, it's interesting you use the exampleof the sort of European knife skills
versus your knife skills, because I thinkthere can be a tendency, um, in, in the
UK certainly, and then I think in sortof Europe more widely, that there is...
The, the kind of like fine diningexperience is one thing, and it involves
(23:46):
one set of skills, one set of an outlookon food, an approach to ingredients,
and I think it's so exciting to havepeople like you coming in and saying
like, actually, no, this isn't theway it should be or needs to be.
Absolutely not.
Yeah, my knife skills mightmake you want to look away,
but it's still my knife skills.
Like, I've learned it from my mother,my grandmother, my great grandmother.
(24:10):
The rest of my family have been using thatknife skills for generation, generation.
Like, you know, we've had a foodidentity and a food culture that
runs over thousands of years.
And, um, we might be eating with ourhands and stuff like that, but there's
still a very strong food etiquette.
Yeah.
You know, when my husband is English,if I take him to Sierra Leone, I'm
(24:33):
constantly saying, you can't stick yourleft hand into food and eat with it.
You can't do this.
You can't do this.
So we have our own etiquettearound dining and food.
So, and to just dismiss that as notimportant or not part, not on the table,
I think it's frankly quite rude, actually.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
So, it's um, about a space that accepts.
(24:56):
that, you know, everyone'sfood is equally important.
You might not know about my foodculture and my food history and
that, but doesn't dismiss it.
Yeah.
You know, and me being, to behonest, I feel like, you know, me
or us, um, wanting to learn aboutother people's cultural skill.
It makes us, I don't know.
(25:18):
The bigger people, if you like, because,um, I'm, I'm taking an interest in
learning and I'm hoping that, you know,other chefs who have had those similar
trainings that I've had want to learn abit more about my cuisine and not just
jump on, because it's not a food trend,not just jump on it, but also like have
There's curiosity enough to learn aboutit, to learn about the ingredients,
(25:42):
to know what those cultural referencesmean to us and why we're doing A, B, C,
and Z, because that's what I'm doing,you know, I'm not just stepping into
this food world and saying I'm gonna,I don't want to do French cuisine, so I
didn't have any reason to go and learnabout French classics, but I thought
it was important in my journey to learnabout that if I'm going to be doing
(26:03):
mixing flavors and mixing techniques.
Yeah, that makes sense.
It makes sense.
Yeah.
I mean, it's almost kind of a shamein a way that we feel like that's
the kind of pinnacle of, like, chefculture, but I guess that's maybe
an argument for a different time.
So, I mean, I have to be honest,I think reading the book, really
(26:23):
revealed to me my own lack ofknowledge about Sierra Leonean food.
It's not a food I knowanything about, really, and...
It's new, so...
Well, I mean, it's not new.
Well,
yeah, so...
It's new for me.
But I, was that a lot of pressurefor you writing the book?
Because it feels like I kind ofhad a look and it didn't really
(26:44):
feel like there have been...
No.
many, if any...
There's not.
Right, yeah, that's what I thought.
So this is the first...
Sierra Leonean book publishedby an international publisher.
Wow.
So there was lots of pressure.
Yeah.
Because you're almost like settingthe standards for what, and you're
hoping somebody beats it all the time.
(27:04):
I'm hoping somebody does somethingthat's even more amazing.
But you want to do so much justice.
So there's lots of pressure andlots of research that goes into it.
And we don't have a culture ofpeople writing recipes down.
Right, I was going to ask you haveto earn it in African culture.
You really have to earn it for your mumto reveal what goes into that sauce.
(27:26):
She feels like you need tobe in the kitchen, burn your
hand a little bit, um, a lot.
Maybe have a few slices on your arm andreally earn your rights to those recipes.
And then once you've earned thoserights and you can say, I can cook,
you know, it's, it's just that culture.
And why not?
You know, it's, it's so importantto us because quite a lot of
(27:48):
time our food is so tied to.
Heritage and stuff like that.
So, of course, so they feellike you need to earn that.
So it's difficult navigating, because evenasking, like asking my mum, she'll tell
me the ingredients of some of the stuff.
I'm like, so why do you put this in this?
Oh, you should know all of this.
And she gets quitefrustrated about it too.
(28:08):
And it's just like, she justfeel like, why are you asking?
Are you an idiot?
You should know,
you know, you're a grown woman.
Why are you, I'm like, I'm doing a book.
I read to, I need to make sureit's accurate and stuff like that.
She's the person that you need to askbecause the information doesn't exist.
You know, there's no Googling.
Exactly.
There's no Googling.
Yeah.
So there's lots of that.
(28:29):
So there's lots of research, lots ofnavigating, lots of um, Also trusting
your own instincts with some of thestuff and reasoning behind it, you know,
there's a reason why they do everythingSo the reasoning it and it's through
this process as well that you learn youlearn to appreciate your own culture
as well and the depth of flavor and howwe get depth of flavor from our food
(28:52):
and You know how important ingredientsis because you grew up in a culture
where people just think what you'reeating It's basically a baseline food.
There's no integrity behind it.
There's no culture behind it.
And then, you know, you don'tbelieve it, of course, but then
(29:13):
it does take its toll sometimes.
And then you start digging intoyour own food, into your own
culture, and then you realize.
Wow.
You know, my ancestors were genius,geniuses because, um, there's a
lot of thought, lots of effort thatgone into everything that they've
been doing and why they put A and Btogether and why it works so well.
Why is it that when you put uguri andpalm oil together and it's boiling and you
(29:37):
can be anywhere, it just takes you home.
You know, it's such an amazing thingto realize all of a sudden, but writing
this cookbook really, really made me.
And, um, made me feel extremely proud.
I've always been proud of being SierraLeonean and an African, but it's,
um, it's, it really just take youone step into, you know, closer to
(30:01):
the people who had come before you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
Yeah.
I know exactly what you mean.
I think it's almost like, itfeels so incredible to think that
somebody made that discovery.
So I think you mentioned, is it ogiri?
Yeah.
And that's fermented sesame, right?
And just, you know, who, who did that?
Yeah, exactly, exactly, you know?
And cassava leaf, you know, cassava leaf.
(30:23):
And there, there are also like thingsthat if you eat it raw, it will kill you.
Who had thought, you know?
Who paid the price?
Who paid the price?
You know, how many people paid the priceto say don't eat it in large numbers?
If you eat it in large numbers, you'llget, so a smaller number is fine,
you'll have probably stomach cramps.
But if you eat it in large numbers,probably, yeah, yeah, don't sit there
(30:44):
and put a big bowl of raw cassava leafand eat it, it tastes horrible anyway.
But, that's the firsttime, who thought of that?
Talking about ingredients.
Was that something sort of that youhad to try quite hard to navigate
writing a book that is aboutSierra Leonean food in the UK?
Was, was there a balance between likewanting to make sure people use the right
(31:07):
ingredients and being aware there's notalways in, you know, particularly in
places outside of major cities, it'snot always the easiest to get hold of?
I think, which is why, um, I'vejust tried very, very hard.
So with the traditional stuff, I'vetried really hard to stay Stick to
it as original as it can be withoutcompromising it because I feel
(31:27):
like if you need to taste cerulean,you really want to taste cerulean.
I don't want to compromise that.
And I just feel like we'rein a world where you can find
things online quite easily.
So if you do a bit of research,you will find it, but I've
also made quite a huge effort.
to have a repository on my website sopeople have access to information where
(31:50):
they can get these ingredients, thestrange ingredients that they cannot find.
Um, they can find it.
And also, you know, without beingrude, I'm just like, well, I love.
Japanese food.
My daughter is hugely into Asian food.
When we want to cook those Asianfoods, we sit on the internet and
we research it and we find wherewe can get the ingredients online.
(32:13):
Yeah.
And we find it and we getit and we cook from it.
Yeah.
So there's no excuse.
There's no excuse.
So the people that really, really want to.
They will find it.
The people that don't want todig that deep, they are there for
fusion stuff that they can startwith, the street food, you know.
Saint Sprays, I justrealized, have been selling.
I went there, yes, it was two days ago.
(32:34):
I bought cassava, I bought plantain, Ibought red palm oil, I bought the cocoyam.
So, supermarkets are stocking up.
Yeah.
And the more books and the morepeople that realize that they can get.
You can cook quite a lot ofthese ingredients from just
things from the supermarkets.
Yeah, and I think that's, it'snice to kind of give people the
(32:54):
encouragement to look for it.
Yeah.
You know, I think the note about, youknow, if you do go to, in the book
about, if you do go into an Africangrocery store, like, make an effort
to talk to people and ask them becausethey will be happy to help you.
Oh, they will be.
They'll be really, reallyhappy to help because they want
people to walk into their shop.
Of course.
They want people to beinterested in their food.
food.
They want people to ask themquestions about their food because,
(33:17):
um, you know, it helps sell theirgoods, you know, and it helps.
It's a nice feeling to know thatyou're in the UK where you're in a
minority, but there's somebody who isalso interested in what you're eating
and not just the other way around.
Exactly.
You know, so.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, are there any recipes in the bookthat are particularly meaningful for you?
(33:37):
Would you like to talk me through?
You can pick a few
if it's easier.
Yes.
That's a tough one.
It's the worst question
I know.
It is.
Yeah.
So, I will start with cassava leaf first.
Okay.
Great.
And I think just because that one.
Oh, wow.
It's our national dish.
Okay.
Okay.
So, cassava leaf is like ournational dish and it's just.
(34:00):
So special to us, um, Sierra Leoneans.
And I have here also, um,the fish, fish bowl stew.
And this one is specially, you know,important because the days where
my mom will be like, Oh, you know,I don't have enough money today.
(34:20):
So we're just going to cook simple.
That's when we'll usuallycook this, the sauce.
And she thought it was something that.
just, Oh, I don't have money.
I'm broke.
But it was actually like our favorites.
Like it was like my favorite thing,the fishbowl stew that she did, like
lots of efforts and stuff goes into it.
(34:42):
But it's just such a, youknow, such a delicious stuff.
And for me, it just also just shows.
the magic and the resilienceof Sierra Leonean women.
Yeah.
And how, you know, you don't needlots and lots of, um, expensive
ingredients to make an amazing dish.
And, um, and also how we, wereally, we're not wasteful.
(35:06):
We use everything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're not, we're not wasteful at all.
So yeah, so fishbowl stew.
And then, you know, the Afrofusionthing, you'll be hard to choose because,
um, the Afrofusion part for me iswhere I feel like innovation and this
excitement about taking an ingredient.
(35:28):
So, Sereleinians and non Sierra Sierracan both have the joy of discovering.
You know, it's like, you know, soSierra Sierra know the traditional
bit, but the Afrofusion bit,there's things that they don't know.
They just know plantain.
Yeah.
So, turning plantain into a handpie and putting feta into it.
That's exciting.
And that always gets exciting.
(35:49):
Cassava, doing the croquettewith it and adding things like
pancetta and manchego cheese to it.
It's exciting.
Adding leeks exciting for me.
Yeah.
It's exciting for them.
So it's a new discovery.
So it's that thing where nonSierra Leoneans are like.
Thinking, oh, croquet,I know what croquet is.
But eating it with cassava in itand discovering new ingredients
(36:13):
and new stature food that canbe used to make those things.
But also Sierra Leoneans isvery much aware of cassava
and know what taste it is.
Yeah.
And knowing what panchetta is as well andputting those together and, and that so.
That's exciting.
So it's almost like it's amutual discovery for both sides.
Um, that's a really, I've neverquite thought of fusion like that
before because I think sometimes,I mean there's a lot of bad fusion.
(36:35):
I know.
Let's be honest.
But actually that's a reallybeautiful way of putting it and I've
never thought about it from thatperspective and it makes so much sense.
Yeah.
Like I love that.
Yeah, it's like this one, for example,this, this is um, So this is the mackerel?
Mackerel.
So beautiful.
So the sauce there is hibiscus.
Oh wow.
Yeah, so hibiscus petals in Sierra Leone,we have two different hibiscus, like
(36:58):
we have the white ones and the red one.
Okay.
The white one we use like insauces, uh, savoury dishes.
The red one we use mainly for drinksbecause, you know, we don't have
a dessert culture necessarily.
Yeah, I was very interested by that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you eat, you eat fresh fruits.
That's your lot.
(37:19):
Yeah.
So we make drinks for this, but creatingthis dish where we do cure fish, we do
smoke fish, but we don't necessarilysmoke fish or cure it to eat like that.
We usually cure it withsalt to you would say.
(37:39):
But it's taking very traditionalelements and sometimes even traditional
cooking methods and curing and doingit like this where it looks European.
Yeah.
And um, so it's both a new discoveryfor Sierra Leoneans and non Sierra
Leoneans because, Absolutely.
You know, it's um, Sierra Leoneans aren'tused to eating hibiscus in this way.
Yeah.
(37:59):
And it's the same way likeEuropeans don't know probably what.
that you can eat hibiscus like that.
A lot of people arefamiliar with hibiscus tea.
Yeah, and that's it.
And that's it,
yeah.
I loved what you said about gettingoff the train at Peckham Rye and
hearing Krio spoken because Iwanted to ask you about language.
So you speak three languages,English, Krio, and is it Mende?
Mende, yeah.
How was it?
Writing the book in one of thoselanguages, especially because you're
(38:23):
saying that Sierra Leone SierraLeone doesn't have a necessarily
like a huge written recipe culture.
So there's almost like a doubletranslation, you're maybe translating
from Krio or Mende, but then alsotranslating from non written to written.
Did it feel like that?
Well, we have like about18 different languages.
Right.
Right.
We also, like all my, like.
(38:46):
It's, it's terrible that I went to,it's actually terrible that I went
to school in Sierra Leone, did allmy formative years in Sierra Leone
but all my education was in English.
Right, okay, okay.
So, it was only when I left actually,I think it was A couple of years
after I left, I'd introduced learningtraditional languages at school.
(39:06):
That's such a shame.
Which is such a shame.
And, um, so all my language and, uh, andpeople widely speak, um, Krio as well.
But in some of, like, the reallytraditional recipes, the names and that.
Yeah.
Trying to translate that name, um, whichis mainly in Mende because my mother's.
So she will call it that particularname, but you might speak to somebody
(39:29):
else in a different region thatcalls it completely different.
But yeah, my only saving grace iswhen it comes to those leafy things.
And so Lillian's canchase me about that later.
Like those leafy greens, like mymother's tribe is like the best at it.
Right, so you've got the authority.
So I've got the authority.
So when it comes to like how it'scooked, um, like, you know, we're
(39:51):
the best at cooking those leafygreens and that, like the cassava
leaf, the potato leaves and that.
You want to eat it fromsomebody who is Mende.
Okay, okay.
So yeah, you can call it what you like.
Yeah.
But we've got names for it, and I've triedto put some of the names, um, in there,
like, but I've put more like the Krionames, which is cassava, we call cassada.
(40:12):
Okay, okay.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So that's, that's the creoname.
Yeah.
And, um, jute leaves, like,my husband usually jokes like
we like to double things.
Because um, jute leaves we call crin crin.
Yeah.
That's nice.
Like, I don't know why we've pluraled it.
Yeah?
Why not?
Because usually with plural youuse like the double thing, like
sand, we call it sand sand.
(40:32):
Oh,
okay.
So instead of adding an S,you might do, yeah, no, I
really like that.
That's great.
San San?
Yeah, it's San San.
Yeah, great.
Makes sense to me.
It's more than
one.
Yeah, um.
Walking we say waka waka.
Oh, yeah.
(40:54):
I love it.
Yeah, why just give you one?
Give you a double.
You say in the book that youfound it really hard to write.
Yeah.
Was that just because you found itdifficult to write about yourself or
was it the actual process of writing?
That is the actual process of writing.
Yeah, I mean it's hard.
It is very hard because for me I feellike writing involves like really
(41:17):
almost like forgetting everythingthat's happening outside and sitting
down and focusing on that one.
thing that you're doing.
Yeah.
And my brain doesn'tnecessarily work like that.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, I want to be, I'm moreexcited because I'll be lying in
bed and I'm thinking about recipes.
I've tasted something somewhereand I'm thinking, Ooh, I can
(41:38):
put this and this together.
I wake up in the morning and I'mthinking I need to go to the supermarket.
So I need to call Becky whosupplies vegetable and say,
can I have this, this and this?
And I want to be in the kitchen makingnotes as well as trying things out.
And sometimes we try.
One million times failed, butI like that process because
it means I'm doing something.
And, um, I mean, I'm in that spaceof excitement where it's creative.
(42:02):
Um, and that writing is so different.
It's, it's just like, and it's notsomething that I've done before.
The last time I wrote anythinglike this was a dissertation.
Wow.
So really in at the deepend with writing a book.
Exactly.
So I do write with Instagram andthat, but it's always like fun stuff
and there's no structure to it.
(42:22):
And I think it's more like the structureparts of this as well, because you
can't just Right, right, right, right.
You know, you send it to Sarahand she's like, maybe, maybe we
should talk about it this way.
Okay.
And was that you?
Oh God, yeah.
It is.
Like I had like amazing, twoamazing people working with me.
(42:47):
I had Sarah and I had Susan as well.
And they're both like, very detailed, um,individuals which work for me because I
really like to know and planning as well.
You know, I like toknow, I plan everything.
I like to know what I'm doing today,tomorrow, and so on and so forth and that.
And I prefer talking to peoplerather than sitting down and
(43:07):
emailing or writing to them.
So that part I found really hardbecause once they've read over
your stuff, they have to send itback all in massive writing thing.
And then you have to read it, read itand sit down where I just want to pick
the phone and just say, let's talkabout this and why I'm not changing it.
And why I'm keeping that.
And now you have to document everything.
So those processes, I just.
(43:28):
Like, it's just not, it's hardto navigate and that, but I just
felt it was really important.
It's a new skills that I never thoughtI had as well, you know, um, cause I
wouldn't have called myself a writer atall, you know, and even now, like, it's
hard to think of myself as an author.
I'm a chancer who writes books.
(43:52):
Quote.
Yeah.
And you know, obviouslythey weren't published.
See other Sierra Leonian author you couldturn to for kind of inspiration book.
Exactly.
Were there any other books that youread, like either that came out recently
or that came out a long time agothat inspired you or kind of helped
you see what this book might be?
Yeah, so there are SierraLeonians who have done like
(44:14):
self self-publishing things.
Okay.
Where they've done like cookery books.
Oh great.
Um, where.
I've bought, I've gone on Amazonand had a look at their work
and seen what they've done.
But these are like really, really, Iremember I was speaking to my mom and
she was like, Oh, it's so and so, shewent to YWCA and she wrote a book.
So it's looking at those and the thingsthat, not necessarily the stories,
but the recipes that they've written.
(44:36):
And, um, some, some of it I look at and Igo, okay, some of it I don't necessarily.
Necessarily agree with.
Yeah.
And, and that some of it makes sense.
Some of it didn't make sense to meat all, and some of it's a completely
different style of cooking as wellfrom what I grew up with, so, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, but I would say quite a lot ofthe reference in terms of recipes
(44:58):
for the traditional, I think it allcame from my mom and my grandmother
because, um, they're the best.
at doing those dishes that I know.
In terms of, um, recipe book, I'ma massive fan of, um, Rick Stein.
Really?
Okay.
And I like books that dig into cultureand not just talking about food.
(45:18):
I like books that want to.
know a bit background about the peopleand the food that they eat and give you
a context so but I didn't really focusfocus on on books because I had a really
very clear idea also like I really wantedto make it Not just about the food and I
really wanted to focus heavily on SierraLeone And I said because there's not
(45:41):
really that it's quite hard like it'salmost like you're starting from zero Yeah
Yeah, completely and because at theheart of it is the trip that you made.
Yeah, absolutely Yeah, massivemassive massive and I have a very
clear idea about photos as wellthat I wanted and stuff like that.
(46:02):
So, and the good news is I hadKodjo who kind of gave me a lot
of control in places like that.
Sometimes I just find, you know, when itcomes to cookbook, it's quite similar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a lot of similarities, notnecessarily in a bad way, but I
also know that this is a new cuisinethat people don't know about.
(46:23):
And, um, it was very important for methat the style of the photo represents me.
Yeah.
And, um, and the style ofthe photo is very simple.
Yeah.
And it focuses a lot on the food.
I wanted all the focus,like, minimalistic props.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
And, um, you know, Claire understoodthat very, very much from the minute
(46:46):
that I said it, you know, what,and she's like, yeah, I get it.
That's what we're going to go for.
Go find your photographerthat is very much like that.
And Yuki just is, she's justan amazing photographer.
So she was able to really capture what Iwanted, um, in the, in the book as well.
(47:07):
I knew I wanted to focuson Sierra Leoneans.
But after that trip, it really, Iwas very 100% sure that I'd gone down
the right route of just making itabout the everyday Sierra Leonean.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And people that people wouldn'tnecessarily write about usually.
Yes.
Or people that usually...
Yeah, absolutely.
People won't capture usually, I wantedto capture that because for me I feel
(47:31):
like they're the real magic of SierraLeone and it's the people that will
welcome you into their home and theirspace with a massive grin on their
face not expecting anything but justbeing super super friendly and want
to feed you till you're Stomach first.
Really.
So the best kind of welcome,the the best kind of welcome.
(47:51):
Exactly.
So it was very importantfor me to showcase that
Lecker is hosted and produced by me.
Lucy Dearlove, thanks to my gueston this episode, Maria Bradford.
(48:15):
Her book's Sweet Salone is outnow published by Quadrille.
As part of the new monthly Lekker bookclub, I'll be writing about the book
over on the Lecker sub stack and Patreon.
Have you got a copy?
Are you reading it?
Have you been cooking from it too?
Come and chat about your favouriterecipes in the comments over
there or tag me on Instagram whenyou post your finished dishes.
(48:35):
I'd love to see them.
I'm really excited to cook from it myself.
And just one more reminder beforethe end of the show, you can sign
up as a paid subscriber to supportLecker on Apple Podcasts and
Patreon and also now on sub stack.
Links are in the show notes.
Your support is really helpfulin keeping the podcast going.
And to any paid subscribers whoare listening here, thank you so
(48:58):
much for your continued support.
It means the world.
Music in this episodeis by Blue Dot Sessions.
Lecker Book Club will be backin August with another delicious
read for your kitchen bookshelves.
Thanks for listening.
Before we start, I just wanted tolet you know that you can become
a paid subscriber of Lecker onSubstack, Patreon, or Apple Podcasts.
You'll get access to exclusive contentto listen to and to read, and your
subscription really helps support Lecker.
If you'd like to do that, headto leckerpodcast.com/support.
to find out more.
(00:23):
This is Lecker, I'm Lucy Dearlove.
Welcome to the Lecker Book Club.
Every month I'll be pickinga newly released food related
book and talking to the authorabout the process of writing it.
I'll also be cooking from the book.
and writing about that on Substack andPatreon, you can join me there as well.
(00:44):
This month on the first editionof the Lecker Book Club,
Maria Bradford's Sweet Salone.
I would say it's a book that isfull of amazing, delicious recipes.
It's full of culture.
It's full of stories about amazing people.
It's full of things that you probablyI've never heard or known about, you
(01:06):
know, the background, the historyand that of Sierra Leone, really.
And it's full of ingredientsthat will just be calling you.
Say, cook me, cook me, cook me.
Maria grew up in Sierra Leone andmoved to Kent, UK, in her late teens.
Sweet Salone is the first Englishlanguage book of Sierra Leonean recipes.
(01:28):
And in it, Maria wanted to share theunique nature of the food in her home
country, but also celebrate the country'speople, including her own family.
But it wasn't necessarily asmooth process writing the book,
as you'll hear her talk about.
We spoke about the culture shock Mariaexperienced on arriving in the UK.
What it was like encountering strawberriesand apples for the first time.
(01:52):
But it was Maria's deep rooted curiosityabout all kinds of food that eventually
led her on a path to training at Leith'sCulinary School and setting up her
fine diner and catering business, ShwenShwen, a Krio phrase meaning fancy.
It's this outlook and experience thatclosely informs the recipes in the
book, from traditional dishes learnedfrom her mother and grandmother.
(02:13):
to her very own brand of Afrofusion.
I met Maria in her publisher'soffice a couple of weeks before
publication and we sat down with acopy of Sweet Salone in front of us.
Obviously, Maria felt a hugeresponsibility writing about Sierra
(02:34):
Leonean food in an environmentwhere it hasn't really been
widely written about before.
But...
It was also an extremely personalexperience writing this book that at
times came almost too close for comfort.
I'm always thinking, oh, am I goingto remember everything that I said?
Well,
I think it's fine
(02:54):
if you don't.
I hope I don't.
There's a lot.
Yeah, there's a lot.
There's a lot of writing.
And it's that thing when you'rewriting, you're sending bits.
By bit.
Bit by bit.
Bit by bit.
And all of a sudden your bitby bit turns into a book.
Yeah, okay, so that's how it felt.
Yeah.
Right, okay.
Because there's a lot of youin this book, isn't there?
(03:14):
Like a lot of you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how did that feel, towrite that much of yourself?
It's um, it's a bit difficult.
Yeah.
Writing about yourself.
I do enjoy writing about other people.
But not necessarily.
Myself.
I, you know, I don't mind writing aboutmy family and my grandmother and stuff.
Because I feel like there'salways so much to say about them.
(03:35):
But then when it comes toyou, you always feel like it's
drawing that line, isn't it?
Yeah.
Where you don't come acrossas me, me, me, me, me, almost.
Right.
But you're still kindof telling your story.
Yeah, and is there almost a sense thatyou want to, like, protect that as well?
Yeah, of course.
Absolutely.
Because, um, I'm, I'm, I've alwaysbeen, like, even on social media,
(03:57):
I'm very protective of my personalspace and, um, and, um, what I share.
Because I just feel like it'svery easy for people to just
say, oh yeah, I know her.
Yes!
Yeah.
And you just, like, you just wantto leave a little bit for yourself.
But then all of a sudden,it's all in a book.
It's like, oh, this is where I was born.
(04:18):
This is my date of birth.
That was a bit hard.
Because I'm just like,they've got my full name.
Nobody has, I've neverput any of my full name.
Yeah.
Like what's on my passport.
And all of a sudden, my full name,my date of birth, it's in the book.
I'm like...
So why did you choose to include it?
Because you could have left that out.
(04:39):
I could have, but I think
it I could have leftthat out, but, um, yeah.
I don't know why I chose to include it.
I didn't write it, I think...
You know, I've alwaysbeen guided about that.
But even in interviews, people dopush because I think people just
feel like they need to know you.
Yeah, that's so true.
(05:00):
They want to know you,they want to know you.
And there's a lot of question aboutchildhood and um, and stuff like that.
Yeah.
So, yeah, before you know it, you're giveninformation that you don't want to give.
People get you in a room and yourpublishers you feel comfortable,
yeah, go for your coffee.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
(05:21):
And before you know it, you're spilling,you're telling them everything.
Yeah.
Find the details.
Mother's maiden name..
First pet.
Do you think
you could have written this bookwithout getting that close to yourself?
No.
Um, because, um, it's, it's really,it's, it's like digging, digging deep,
(05:49):
but, and, um, and also there's a lotof positive obviously that I wanted to
write about, um, when it comes to mychildhood, but it's also writing about
reality and the reality comes fromwriting and Going into other places
and just writing about those things.
Um, you know, trying to besuperhero for everybody.
(06:11):
But you open up, there are people whoread that and it resonates with them.
Especially when it comes tolike, things like immigration
stories and stuff like that.
You know, there are lots ofmigrants, um, here in the UK
and other parts of the world.
And it's just like...
I'm sure we all have similar storiesand similar feelings and, um, this
book is very much written where you,you're missing home, you're missing
(06:37):
food, you're missing people and all ofthat get blended into one and you find
yourself in this new world, in this newspace and you're trying to find yourself.
And how do you find yourself?
You find yourself through food, throughthe things which is so familiar,
not finding that initially such a.
(06:57):
A rude awakening, like, it'sjust like, I'm in a new place.
Yeah.
And
is it that's how it feltwhen you first got here?
It Yeah,
it was, absolutely.
It's not just like you're learningabout a new place, isn't it?
You're also learning new food,new cuisine, new ingredients.
Yeah.
Not necessarily as acook, but as an eater.
(07:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Somebody who just loves to eat.
Somebody who's grown around food.
Somebody who's grown aroundlots of family members.
I grew up in a housewhere there's siblings.
There's my mom.
My grandmother, there's lots ofaunties, there's lots of uncles.
Everything was surrounded about, aroundfood and everything was surrounded
(07:39):
around, um, celebrating food.
And all of a sudden, there are newand exciting ingredients, of course.
Like, I've never had strawberry,I've never had blackberry, and that.
So it's all new and exciting,so you should be enjoying it.
But at the same time, you're not ableto enjoy it because you're missing.
You can't relate to it.
(07:59):
Now I can relate to strawberry.
You know, now I'm a Kentishwoman, so I can relate to it.
You have to, it's the law.
Yeah, it's the law, exactly.
Now I can relate to it, now it'slike, in the summer if I don't eat
strawberry, I'm like, what's happening?
You know, if I go away and there'sno, I'm sitting in Sierra Leone,
I should be enjoying it, I'm like.
I wish I was eating strawberries,you know, but it's such a, it's
(08:22):
such a strange thing, isn't it?
Yeah, and it's so interesting you talkabout an ingredient like strawberry like
that because I think in this countrythere's There's such a lens on like, foods
that are quote unquote exotic, or like,non native, which is kind of most of our
foods, to be honest, because we importso much, we don't really grow that much.
Yeah.
But then actually, like, I think it canbe really easy to forget for people who
(08:45):
don't broaden their kind of horizonsin terms of what food they're reading
about and people that they're...
Reading that everythingis exotic to someone.
Yeah.
So.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Everything.
And I should say the berrieswere like, even the apple.
Right, right.
Like apple.
Yeah.
We do have apple, but it's imported.
(09:06):
Yeah.
Okay.
And um, yeah, it doesn't taste the same.
Yeah.
And apple in Kent, it's quite crunchy.
Yeah.
It's so lovely.
And then, I never knew therewas so many varieties of apple.
So many.
I just thought there was eitherpink or green apple, and that's it.
Because that's all I've seen.
Yeah.
So all of a sudden, there'sthese different apples.
(09:27):
And then, the things thatare really familiar...
And when you do approach them,like the papaya, the mango, the
exotic fruit, they taste horrible.
So it's like a
twisted version of everything.
It's just like, whatthe hell is happening?
It's like, all of a sudden, what Iknow tastes disgusting and what I don't
(09:51):
know, the things that I don't know.
Everything is upside down.
The things that I don't know.
It has the most amazing taste ever.
So it's so good.
So you quickly startlearning about things.
Um, you start reading.
I've always loved reading anyway.
So you quickly start typingand googling or researching.
(10:13):
Not really googling, therewasn't that much googling.
Researching and asking a lot of questionsabout, and being really curious.
I've always been curiousabout food anyway.
So asking a lot of questions.
But it's also weird whenuh, Teenage person is asking
someone why is strawberry?
Yeah, you think how do you not know that?
(10:33):
How do you not know that?
And thinking, yeah, you,you think of something.
No, I'm not.
But just like, you wouldn'tknow what guayavis and you
wouldn't know what this is.
Right.
I'm just saying like,yeah, what is strawberry?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're asking becauseyou want to learn.
And you want to learn.
Exactly.
You want to learn.
And you want to know.
(10:53):
And you're thinkingthese are all new stuff.
But then again, you know, I always saythat's my superpower because I don't
only know about all the exotic stuff.
I also have new knowledge and newpower of knowing all this new stuff
that a lot of people don't know.
So yeah, you know, I'm the best.
I know everything.
I'm like my own Google Exactly So, youknow, you know everything so, you know
(11:19):
everything that you've grown up aroundYeah, all these amazing exotic ingredients
we also know all this new stuff that youkeep picking so everything keep being
exciting and Everything is exciting andit's only when you find that comfort
and that balance and you start settlingbecause it takes some time to do that.
So you take that balance, you settleand once you're settled and then you
(11:42):
start thinking, okay, and that takes areally long time, I'm not going to lie.
And then you start learning.
It's a process.
It's a process.
It's absolutely a process.
And I think it's muchbetter when you're younger.
Yeah.
Than when you're older.
Yeah.
So I always feel terrible for people.
In their twenties, thirties, forties,coming to a new place because, um, I
(12:07):
know it must be really difficult becauseyou're settled in your way and probably
people had jobs, like I have uncles andaunties and people who are travelling
and they've had jobs before, theyhad a life, they had a home, they had
respect, they had people who looked upto them and all of a sudden they find
themselves in a place where they'renobody and it's quite a lot to process.
(12:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
For an adult.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So you were a teenager when you camehere and you've stayed here since then.
Yeah.
So all of these kind of Kentishingredients and other ingredients of
other counties of the UK, when did youstart cooking with those ingredients?
(12:52):
My very first job that I hadwas at an Italian restaurant.
Oh, really?
Very first.
I was, um, at a college in, um, Tombridge.
And then I had a job at WestSmalling, where I lived.
It was an Italian, little, smallItalian high street restaurant.
And it was the very first place that Ireally started, like, with ingredients
(13:14):
and seeing more different stuff.
How amazing, simplicity of cookingand using different ingredients.
I was just there to wash dishes, but ofcourse I was asking a lot of questions and
just seeing, you know, what they're doing.
Why are you putting this?
And why are you doing that?
And all of that.
You know, some of them werevery open to talk about it.
Some of them were like, get out ofmy way, go face what you're doing.
(13:36):
But I was doing the washing and becauseI was so interested as well, I was um,
helping as well with washing vegetables.
Yeah, I'm prepping vegetables,washing vegetables and, you
know, taking supplies in.
So you get to see all of that, but thenI had to leave because I went to uni.
But that kind of love for cookingand at home, I was still, you know,
(13:58):
all of a sudden I did find like the,the thing that I was doing more of
cooking was peanut soup, which is a.
We used a lot of peanutsto do like stews and soups.
So peanut soup, I couldfind peanut butter easy.
And then I had to find the right chili.
Yeah.
It was only bad side.
We don't really use bad side.
So to get the heat, in fact, I startedwith the bigger ones, the bigger red
(14:22):
ones thinking that, Oh, that must be hot.
No, it's not.
And then you move slowerand then it's like, Oh.
And then you try it out and it'slike, too much seeds, not the same.
Still, like, there's something missing.
But it's a little bit closer to that.
And then, you know, back then,supermarkets didn't even sell
Scotch bonnet chili at all.
(14:43):
So you start moving, moving,and then you're like, Okay, I'll
settle in with the, you know, this.
It's fine.
I'll make do with it.
It will do for now, but then it's comfort.
And so every time you cook thatpeanuts, I cook that peanuts, introduce
it to friends and new friends andthat their eyes just pop open and
(15:05):
they're so excited by this new flavor.
Ooh, I didn't even know youcan do peanuts, peanut soup.
I didn't know you can put peanutsin a sauce with chicken and
spices and put rice with it.
And.
It tastes this amazing andthey kept calling it curry.
I'm like, it's got nothing to do withcurry is, but yeah, but it's not curry.
(15:25):
I said, we don't call it that.
We call it soup.
And of course, soup in the Europeancontext is very different to us because
soup is not necessarily what we drink.
We don't have soup culture.
So when you say soup, it's somethingthat you eat with something else.
Yes.
Okay.
So it's navigating.
I swear, it's like, do youwant to come out for soup?
(15:46):
What?
Yeah, and I put a bowl of tomatosoup in front of me and I'm
like, uh, Where's the rest of it?
Where's the rest of it?
Is this going with rice?
Oh no, you just drink it.
Oh.
That doesn't make sense to me.
That's not food.
You just drink
(16:07):
it?
It's a very fair comment.
And whilst I was at unialso, I was cooking a lot.
Yeah.
You know, experimenting with,um, ingredients and that.
And then I found Peckham.
Ah.
Because I was living in Kent, so Ididn't know there was Peckham existed.
So I was more coming to London,when we come to London site view,
(16:29):
and it was more central Londonand stuff, and then found Peckham.
The day that I found Peckham, oh myGod, it was like, How come nobody, this
has been paid, nobody thought to tellme there was a place where I can come.
And the insane thing was I gotoff the train at Peckham and
there was people speaking Krio.
(16:51):
Wow, okay.
Was that the first timethat you'd heard Krio?
The first
time, exactly.
Do you know, like, it was justlike, whoa, this is like, it was
just such an amazing feeling.
I could have cried, seriously.
It was just such...
An amazing feeling, the hustle, thebustle, it just felt like I was in
Sierra Leone and it just felt home andI'd found my new place and I could find
(17:16):
ingredients that I could relate to.
There was plantain, there was cassava,there was this, I had so many bags, you
know, I wanted to buy the whole pack andtake it with me and it was so exciting.
Of course, then I started doing abit of cooking, but not necessarily.
Professionally, whichis for friends and home.
I started cooking professionally 2017.
(17:37):
Okay, and so what led you tothat part of your journey?
What sort of sparkedyou to take that step?
It was a lot of compliments and alot of, um, bussing around by family
members because, um, I was alwaysmaking stuff and they were all like,
Oh, you know, you should do this.
You should do this.
And then my cousin got marriedand she wanted me to do the food.
(17:58):
And then I did the food forher wedding for 60 people.
Wow.
And it was so amazing.
Well, from the guests.
Um, everybody kept asking peoplethat I didn't know, asking for my
card, asking how they can contact me.
I was like, what?
Really?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And then 2017, I started my firstInstagram post of her wedding.
(18:20):
Just posted a little something of mycousin's wedding talking about it.
And I was actually really shockedby how many people were liking.
What I was doing.
Then, of course, that encourages you todo more, to experiment a bit more, but
I was still working because I was doingaccounting and finance, so I still had
a job that I was doing, doing that bitby bit and just posting and they just.
(18:44):
more and more excitement.
And then I thought, you know, my husbandwas like, maybe, you know, these drinks
that people have been telling youis really nice, the chili sauce and
all of that, maybe you should bottleit and we do try farmer's market.
So I did.
And farmer's market again was amassive shocker and eye opener.
We just did a taster.
I ran out that day of farmer's markets.
(19:06):
I had lots of drinks and I ranout, I ran out of all the chili
sauce, ran out of all the drinks.
That's amazing.
And yeah, and just, uh, The interestand the hunger for people to learn
about new stuff as well was just, and Ididn't know British people liked chili
that much until that farmer's market.
They were putting it on everything.
(19:26):
So I was just like, okay.
We might not sell anychilis here, but we love it.
Love it, yeah.
So I was just like, I can, okay.
So, yeah.
Started from there, but it's, again,still, you know, I had this thing where I,
maybe it's African in me, but I just like,I've studied for everything that called
myself, you know, I've gone to school,gone and had a degree, blah, blah, blah.
(19:49):
So I just felt like, you know, Ineeded to dig deeper into this food.
I know a lot about food.
I know a lot about ingredients and I cooka lot from recipes and that, but I wanted
to go to culinary school just to dig more.
So I went to Leiths.
Wow.
Okay.
And what was that like?
Very exciting.
(20:09):
Yeah.
I always thought I was academicuntil I got to later and I actually
realised I was made for cookingbecause everything just kind of, it
was like a puzzle fitting in perfectly.
That must have been such a kindof lovely realisation to be
like, this is where I need to be.
It was just, uh, the best thingand I remember him saying like,
it's going to be stressful.
(20:30):
Um, and then I neveronce found it stressful.
Wow.
The only thing I found stressfulwas getting there because I
live in Kent and it's in London.
But once I'm there, I neverever found it stressful.
For me, I felt like it was aplace where I could go and relax.
That's how it felt for me.
It was just.
Things just.
Yeah, and so what, what doesthe training at Leith's involve?
(20:51):
It's very classic, classicFrench, I should say.
Yes, it's very classic,very classic French.
So, well, from there, before I went I knewvery much, like, it was really important
to me to showcase Sierra Leonean food.
I'd written lots of...
Letters to different restaurantsand different African chefs before
I went there, because I reallywanted to gain an experience in an
(21:13):
African kitchen to see how it's done.
But I couldn't really get anyone tocome back and say, yes, we'll have you.
So, um, which is why I went there.
It made sense to me and it stillmakes sense to me because, um.
I needed to kind of polish on, Iwas making mayo, I didn't know the
science behind it, for example.
(21:35):
I was doing things that I didn'treally know the science behind, or
if they go wrong, how you correct it.
Um, and the reasoning for that.
I had a knife skills, you know,of cutting potato leaf with my
hand and doing it perfectly in atraditional Sierra Leonean way.
But, um, I didn't have a European knifeskills that was for chef, um, you know.
(21:55):
So, it was good.
So I went there and pick upthose skills and just blend it
in with what I knew already.
There also, I realized that therewas a massive space for what I do.
Yeah.
Because, um, there were lots oftimes where I really wanted to have
a conversation with tutors aboutmy food and what I know as food.
(22:18):
It was easy for them to haveconversation with the Italian, the
Spanish and that, but not as easy forthem to interact with me with food.
That was very much.
My culture, my food, food that will,just like a baby would know, for example.
So, that was a little bit frustrating,I'm not going to lie, because um,
Um, you're in a space where you'remeant to be learning about food.
(22:39):
So of course, you want everybody involvedin that space to know a bit more about
people coming from different angles.
Yeah.
But there was that shortcomings, which,which I've spoken to them about, um,
and that, there was that, which wasmissing, but it still didn't take
away the fact that I learnt a lot.
Yeah, of course.
And um, I learnt a lot and I learnt that.
(23:02):
Also, there's room for what I do, there'sspace for what I do, and I think it's
very, very important that I am in thisspace, because people need to know
that there are other people across.
the barrier of food, this foodchain or hierarchy that's been done.
There are other people on theother side of that, and their
(23:22):
voices need to be heard too.
Absolutely.
And, um, so, yeah, it just mademe want to push even further.
Yeah, it's interesting you use the exampleof the sort of European knife skills
versus your knife skills, because I thinkthere can be a tendency, um, in, in the
UK certainly, and then I think in sortof Europe more widely, that there is...
The, the kind of like fine diningexperience is one thing, and it involves
(23:46):
one set of skills, one set of an outlookon food, an approach to ingredients,
and I think it's so exciting to havepeople like you coming in and saying
like, actually, no, this isn't theway it should be or needs to be.
Absolutely not.
Yeah, my knife skills mightmake you want to look away,
but it's still my knife skills.
Like, I've learned it from my mother,my grandmother, my great grandmother.
(24:10):
The rest of my family have been using thatknife skills for generation, generation.
Like, you know, we've had a foodidentity and a food culture that
runs over thousands of years.
And, um, we might be eating with ourhands and stuff like that, but there's
still a very strong food etiquette.
Yeah.
You know, when my husband is English,if I take him to Sierra Leone, I'm
(24:33):
constantly saying, you can't stick yourleft hand into food and eat with it.
You can't do this.
You can't do this.
So we have our own etiquettearound dining and food.
So, and to just dismiss that as notimportant or not part, not on the table,
I think it's frankly quite rude, actually.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
So, it's um, about a space that accepts.
(24:56):
that, you know, everyone'sfood is equally important.
You might not know about my foodculture and my food history and
that, but doesn't dismiss it.
Yeah.
You know, and me being, to behonest, I feel like, you know, me
or us, um, wanting to learn aboutother people's cultural skill.
It makes us, I don't know.
(25:18):
The bigger people, if you like, because,um, I'm, I'm taking an interest in
learning and I'm hoping that, you know,other chefs who have had those similar
trainings that I've had want to learn abit more about my cuisine and not just
jump on, because it's not a food trend,not just jump on it, but also like have
There's curiosity enough to learn aboutit, to learn about the ingredients,
(25:42):
to know what those cultural referencesmean to us and why we're doing A, B, C,
and Z, because that's what I'm doing,you know, I'm not just stepping into
this food world and saying I'm gonna,I don't want to do French cuisine, so I
didn't have any reason to go and learnabout French classics, but I thought
it was important in my journey to learnabout that if I'm going to be doing
(26:03):
mixing flavors and mixing techniques.
Yeah, that makes sense.
It makes sense.
Yeah.
I mean, it's almost kind of a shamein a way that we feel like that's
the kind of pinnacle of, like, chefculture, but I guess that's maybe
an argument for a different time.
So, I mean, I have to be honest,I think reading the book, really
(26:23):
revealed to me my own lack ofknowledge about Sierra Leonean food.
It's not a food I knowanything about, really, and...
It's new, so...
Well, I mean, it's not new.
Well,
yeah, so...
It's new for me.
But I, was that a lot of pressurefor you writing the book?
Because it feels like I kind ofhad a look and it didn't really
(26:44):
feel like there have been...
No.
many, if any...
There's not.
Right, yeah, that's what I thought.
So this is the first...
Sierra Leonean book publishedby an international publisher.
Wow.
So there was lots of pressure.
Yeah.
Because you're almost like settingthe standards for what, and you're
hoping somebody beats it all the time.
(27:04):
I'm hoping somebody does somethingthat's even more amazing.
But you want to do so much justice.
So there's lots of pressure andlots of research that goes into it.
And we don't have a culture ofpeople writing recipes down.
Right, I was going to ask you haveto earn it in African culture.
You really have to earn it for your mumto reveal what goes into that sauce.
(27:26):
She feels like you need tobe in the kitchen, burn your
hand a little bit, um, a lot.
Maybe have a few slices on your arm andreally earn your rights to those recipes.
And then once you've earned thoserights and you can say, I can cook,
you know, it's, it's just that culture.
And why not?
You know, it's, it's so importantto us because quite a lot of
(27:48):
time our food is so tied to.
Heritage and stuff like that.
So, of course, so they feellike you need to earn that.
So it's difficult navigating, because evenasking, like asking my mum, she'll tell
me the ingredients of some of the stuff.
I'm like, so why do you put this in this?
Oh, you should know all of this.
And she gets quitefrustrated about it too.
(28:08):
And it's just like, she justfeel like, why are you asking?
Are you an idiot?
You should know,
you know, you're a grown woman.
Why are you, I'm like, I'm doing a book.
I read to, I need to make sureit's accurate and stuff like that.
She's the person that you need to askbecause the information doesn't exist.
You know, there's no Googling.
Exactly.
There's no Googling.
Yeah.
So there's lots of that.
(28:29):
So there's lots of research, lots ofnavigating, lots of um, Also trusting
your own instincts with some of thestuff and reasoning behind it, you know,
there's a reason why they do everythingSo the reasoning it and it's through
this process as well that you learn youlearn to appreciate your own culture
as well and the depth of flavor and howwe get depth of flavor from our food
(28:52):
and You know how important ingredientsis because you grew up in a culture
where people just think what you'reeating It's basically a baseline food.
There's no integrity behind it.
There's no culture behind it.
And then, you know, you don'tbelieve it, of course, but then
(29:13):
it does take its toll sometimes.
And then you start digging intoyour own food, into your own
culture, and then you realize.
Wow.
You know, my ancestors were genius,geniuses because, um, there's a
lot of thought, lots of effort thatgone into everything that they've
been doing and why they put A and Btogether and why it works so well.
Why is it that when you put uguri andpalm oil together and it's boiling and you
(29:37):
can be anywhere, it just takes you home.
You know, it's such an amazing thingto realize all of a sudden, but writing
this cookbook really, really made me.
And, um, made me feel extremely proud.
I've always been proud of being SierraLeonean and an African, but it's,
um, it's, it really just take youone step into, you know, closer to
(30:01):
the people who had come before you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
Yeah.
I know exactly what you mean.
I think it's almost like, itfeels so incredible to think that
somebody made that discovery.
So I think you mentioned, is it ogiri?
Yeah.
And that's fermented sesame, right?
And just, you know, who, who did that?
Yeah, exactly, exactly, you know?
And cassava leaf, you know, cassava leaf.
(30:23):
And there, there are also like thingsthat if you eat it raw, it will kill you.
Who had thought, you know?
Who paid the price?
Who paid the price?
You know, how many people paid the priceto say don't eat it in large numbers?
If you eat it in large numbers, you'llget, so a smaller number is fine,
you'll have probably stomach cramps.
But if you eat it in large numbers,probably, yeah, yeah, don't sit there
(30:44):
and put a big bowl of raw cassava leafand eat it, it tastes horrible anyway.
But, that's the firsttime, who thought of that?
Talking about ingredients.
Was that something sort of that youhad to try quite hard to navigate
writing a book that is aboutSierra Leonean food in the UK?
Was, was there a balance between likewanting to make sure people use the right
(31:07):
ingredients and being aware there's notalways in, you know, particularly in
places outside of major cities, it'snot always the easiest to get hold of?
I think, which is why, um, I'vejust tried very, very hard.
So with the traditional stuff, I'vetried really hard to stay Stick to
it as original as it can be withoutcompromising it because I feel
(31:27):
like if you need to taste cerulean,you really want to taste cerulean.
I don't want to compromise that.
And I just feel like we'rein a world where you can find
things online quite easily.
So if you do a bit of research,you will find it, but I've
also made quite a huge effort.
to have a repository on my website sopeople have access to information where
(31:50):
they can get these ingredients, thestrange ingredients that they cannot find.
Um, they can find it.
And also, you know, without beingrude, I'm just like, well, I love.
Japanese food.
My daughter is hugely into Asian food.
When we want to cook those Asianfoods, we sit on the internet and
we research it and we find wherewe can get the ingredients online.
(32:13):
Yeah.
And we find it and we getit and we cook from it.
Yeah.
So there's no excuse.
There's no excuse.
So the people that really, really want to.
They will find it.
The people that don't want todig that deep, they are there for
fusion stuff that they can startwith, the street food, you know.
Saint Sprays, I justrealized, have been selling.
I went there, yes, it was two days ago.
(32:34):
I bought cassava, I bought plantain, Ibought red palm oil, I bought the cocoyam.
So, supermarkets are stocking up.
Yeah.
And the more books and the morepeople that realize that they can get.
You can cook quite a lot ofthese ingredients from just
things from the supermarkets.
Yeah, and I think that's, it'snice to kind of give people the
(32:54):
encouragement to look for it.
Yeah.
You know, I think the note about, youknow, if you do go to, in the book
about, if you do go into an Africangrocery store, like, make an effort
to talk to people and ask them becausethey will be happy to help you.
Oh, they will be.
They'll be really, reallyhappy to help because they want
people to walk into their shop.
Of course.
They want people to beinterested in their food.
food.
They want people to ask themquestions about their food because,
(33:17):
um, you know, it helps sell theirgoods, you know, and it helps.
It's a nice feeling to know thatyou're in the UK where you're in a
minority, but there's somebody who isalso interested in what you're eating
and not just the other way around.
Exactly.
You know, so.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, are there any recipes in the bookthat are particularly meaningful for you?
(33:37):
Would you like to talk me through?
You can pick a few
if it's easier.
Yes.
That's a tough one.
It's the worst question
I know.
It is.
Yeah.
So, I will start with cassava leaf first.
Okay.
Great.
And I think just because that one.
Oh, wow.
It's our national dish.
Okay.
Okay.
So, cassava leaf is like ournational dish and it's just.
(34:00):
So special to us, um, Sierra Leoneans.
And I have here also, um,the fish, fish bowl stew.
And this one is specially, you know,important because the days where
my mom will be like, Oh, you know,I don't have enough money today.
(34:20):
So we're just going to cook simple.
That's when we'll usuallycook this, the sauce.
And she thought it was something that.
just, Oh, I don't have money.
I'm broke.
But it was actually like our favorites.
Like it was like my favorite thing,the fishbowl stew that she did, like
lots of efforts and stuff goes into it.
(34:42):
But it's just such a, youknow, such a delicious stuff.
And for me, it just also just shows.
the magic and the resilienceof Sierra Leonean women.
Yeah.
And how, you know, you don't needlots and lots of, um, expensive
ingredients to make an amazing dish.
And, um, and also how we, wereally, we're not wasteful.
(35:06):
We use everything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're not, we're not wasteful at all.
So yeah, so fishbowl stew.
And then, you know, the Afrofusionthing, you'll be hard to choose because,
um, the Afrofusion part for me iswhere I feel like innovation and this
excitement about taking an ingredient.
(35:28):
So, Sereleinians and non Sierra Sierracan both have the joy of discovering.
You know, it's like, you know, soSierra Sierra know the traditional
bit, but the Afrofusion bit,there's things that they don't know.
They just know plantain.
Yeah.
So, turning plantain into a handpie and putting feta into it.
That's exciting.
And that always gets exciting.
(35:49):
Cassava, doing the croquettewith it and adding things like
pancetta and manchego cheese to it.
It's exciting.
Adding leeks exciting for me.
Yeah.
It's exciting for them.
So it's a new discovery.
So it's that thing where nonSierra Leoneans are like.
Thinking, oh, croquet,I know what croquet is.
But eating it with cassava in itand discovering new ingredients
(36:13):
and new stature food that canbe used to make those things.
But also Sierra Leoneans isvery much aware of cassava
and know what taste it is.
Yeah.
And knowing what panchetta is as well andputting those together and, and that so.
That's exciting.
So it's almost like it's amutual discovery for both sides.
Um, that's a really, I've neverquite thought of fusion like that
before because I think sometimes,I mean there's a lot of bad fusion.
(36:35):
I know.
Let's be honest.
But actually that's a reallybeautiful way of putting it and I've
never thought about it from thatperspective and it makes so much sense.
Yeah.
Like I love that.
Yeah, it's like this one, for example,this, this is um, So this is the mackerel?
Mackerel.
So beautiful.
So the sauce there is hibiscus.
Oh wow.
Yeah, so hibiscus petals in Sierra Leone,we have two different hibiscus, like
(36:58):
we have the white ones and the red one.
Okay.
The white one we use like insauces, uh, savoury dishes.
The red one we use mainly for drinksbecause, you know, we don't have
a dessert culture necessarily.
Yeah, I was very interested by that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you eat, you eat fresh fruits.
That's your lot.
(37:19):
Yeah.
So we make drinks for this, but creatingthis dish where we do cure fish, we do
smoke fish, but we don't necessarilysmoke fish or cure it to eat like that.
We usually cure it withsalt to you would say.
(37:39):
But it's taking very traditionalelements and sometimes even traditional
cooking methods and curing and doingit like this where it looks European.
Yeah.
And um, so it's both a new discoveryfor Sierra Leoneans and non Sierra
Leoneans because, Absolutely.
You know, it's um, Sierra Leoneans aren'tused to eating hibiscus in this way.
Yeah.
(37:59):
And it's the same way likeEuropeans don't know probably what.
that you can eat hibiscus like that.
A lot of people arefamiliar with hibiscus tea.
Yeah, and that's it.
And that's it,
yeah.
I loved what you said about gettingoff the train at Peckham Rye and
hearing Krio spoken because Iwanted to ask you about language.
So you speak three languages,English, Krio, and is it Mende?
Mende, yeah.
How was it?
Writing the book in one of thoselanguages, especially because you're
(38:23):
saying that Sierra Leone SierraLeone doesn't have a necessarily
like a huge written recipe culture.
So there's almost like a doubletranslation, you're maybe translating
from Krio or Mende, but then alsotranslating from non written to written.
Did it feel like that?
Well, we have like about18 different languages.
Right.
Right.
We also, like all my, like.
(38:46):
It's, it's terrible that I went to,it's actually terrible that I went
to school in Sierra Leone, did allmy formative years in Sierra Leone
but all my education was in English.
Right, okay, okay.
So, it was only when I left actually,I think it was A couple of years
after I left, I'd introduced learningtraditional languages at school.
(39:06):
That's such a shame.
Which is such a shame.
And, um, so all my language and, uh, andpeople widely speak, um, Krio as well.
But in some of, like, the reallytraditional recipes, the names and that.
Yeah.
Trying to translate that name, um, whichis mainly in Mende because my mother's.
So she will call it that particularname, but you might speak to somebody
(39:29):
else in a different region thatcalls it completely different.
But yeah, my only saving grace iswhen it comes to those leafy things.
And so Lillian's canchase me about that later.
Like those leafy greens, like mymother's tribe is like the best at it.
Right, so you've got the authority.
So I've got the authority.
So when it comes to like how it'scooked, um, like, you know, we're
(39:51):
the best at cooking those leafygreens and that, like the cassava
leaf, the potato leaves and that.
You want to eat it fromsomebody who is Mende.
Okay, okay.
So yeah, you can call it what you like.
Yeah.
But we've got names for it, and I've triedto put some of the names, um, in there,
like, but I've put more like the Krionames, which is cassava, we call cassada.
(40:12):
Okay, okay.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So that's, that's the creoname.
Yeah.
And, um, jute leaves, like,my husband usually jokes like
we like to double things.
Because um, jute leaves we call crin crin.
Yeah.
That's nice.
Like, I don't know why we've pluraled it.
Yeah?
Why not?
Because usually with plural youuse like the double thing, like
sand, we call it sand sand.
(40:32):
Oh,
okay.
So instead of adding an S,you might do, yeah, no, I
really like that.
That's great.
San San?
Yeah, it's San San.
Yeah, great.
Makes sense to me.
It's more than
one.
Yeah, um.
Walking we say waka waka.
Oh, yeah.
(40:54):
I love it.
Yeah, why just give you one?
Give you a double.
You say in the book that youfound it really hard to write.
Yeah.
Was that just because you found itdifficult to write about yourself or
was it the actual process of writing?
That is the actual process of writing.
Yeah, I mean it's hard.
It is very hard because for me I feellike writing involves like really
(41:17):
almost like forgetting everythingthat's happening outside and sitting
down and focusing on that one.
thing that you're doing.
Yeah.
And my brain doesn'tnecessarily work like that.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, I want to be, I'm moreexcited because I'll be lying in
bed and I'm thinking about recipes.
I've tasted something somewhereand I'm thinking, Ooh, I can
(41:38):
put this and this together.
I wake up in the morning and I'mthinking I need to go to the supermarket.
So I need to call Becky whosupplies vegetable and say,
can I have this, this and this?
And I want to be in the kitchen makingnotes as well as trying things out.
And sometimes we try.
One million times failed, butI like that process because
it means I'm doing something.
And, um, I mean, I'm in that spaceof excitement where it's creative.
(42:02):
Um, and that writing is so different.
It's, it's just like, and it's notsomething that I've done before.
The last time I wrote anythinglike this was a dissertation.
Wow.
So really in at the deepend with writing a book.
Exactly.
So I do write with Instagram andthat, but it's always like fun stuff
and there's no structure to it.
(42:22):
And I think it's more like the structureparts of this as well, because you
can't just Right, right, right, right.
You know, you send it to Sarahand she's like, maybe, maybe we
should talk about it this way.
Okay.
And was that you?
Oh God, yeah.
It is.
Like I had like amazing, twoamazing people working with me.
(42:47):
I had Sarah and I had Susan as well.
And they're both like, very detailed, um,individuals which work for me because I
really like to know and planning as well.
You know, I like toknow, I plan everything.
I like to know what I'm doing today,tomorrow, and so on and so forth and that.
And I prefer talking to peoplerather than sitting down and
(43:07):
emailing or writing to them.
So that part I found really hardbecause once they've read over
your stuff, they have to send itback all in massive writing thing.
And then you have to read it, read itand sit down where I just want to pick
the phone and just say, let's talkabout this and why I'm not changing it.
And why I'm keeping that.
And now you have to document everything.
So those processes, I just.
(43:28):
Like, it's just not, it's hardto navigate and that, but I just
felt it was really important.
It's a new skills that I never thoughtI had as well, you know, um, cause I
wouldn't have called myself a writer atall, you know, and even now, like, it's
hard to think of myself as an author.
I'm a chancer who writes books.
(43:52):
Quote.
Yeah.
And you know, obviouslythey weren't published.
See other Sierra Leonian author you couldturn to for kind of inspiration book.
Exactly.
Were there any other books that youread, like either that came out recently
or that came out a long time agothat inspired you or kind of helped
you see what this book might be?
Yeah, so there are SierraLeonians who have done like
(44:14):
self self-publishing things.
Okay.
Where they've done like cookery books.
Oh great.
Um, where.
I've bought, I've gone on Amazonand had a look at their work
and seen what they've done.
But these are like really, really, Iremember I was speaking to my mom and
she was like, Oh, it's so and so, shewent to YWCA and she wrote a book.
So it's looking at those and the thingsthat, not necessarily the stories,
but the recipes that they've written.
(44:36):
And, um, some, some of it I look at and Igo, okay, some of it I don't necessarily.
Necessarily agree with.
Yeah.
And, and that some of it makes sense.
Some of it didn't make sense to meat all, and some of it's a completely
different style of cooking as wellfrom what I grew up with, so, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, but I would say quite a lot ofthe reference in terms of recipes
(44:58):
for the traditional, I think it allcame from my mom and my grandmother
because, um, they're the best.
at doing those dishes that I know.
In terms of, um, recipe book, I'ma massive fan of, um, Rick Stein.
Really?
Okay.
And I like books that dig into cultureand not just talking about food.
(45:18):
I like books that want to.
know a bit background about the peopleand the food that they eat and give you
a context so but I didn't really focusfocus on on books because I had a really
very clear idea also like I really wantedto make it Not just about the food and I
really wanted to focus heavily on SierraLeone And I said because there's not
(45:41):
really that it's quite hard like it'salmost like you're starting from zero Yeah
Yeah, completely and because at theheart of it is the trip that you made.
Yeah, absolutely Yeah, massivemassive massive and I have a very
clear idea about photos as wellthat I wanted and stuff like that.
(46:02):
So, and the good news is I hadKodjo who kind of gave me a lot
of control in places like that.
Sometimes I just find, you know, when itcomes to cookbook, it's quite similar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a lot of similarities, notnecessarily in a bad way, but I
also know that this is a new cuisinethat people don't know about.
(46:23):
And, um, it was very important for methat the style of the photo represents me.
Yeah.
And, um, and the style ofthe photo is very simple.
Yeah.
And it focuses a lot on the food.
I wanted all the focus,like, minimalistic props.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
And, um, you know, Claire understoodthat very, very much from the minute
(46:46):
that I said it, you know, what,and she's like, yeah, I get it.
That's what we're going to go for.
Go find your photographerthat is very much like that.
And Yuki just is, she's justan amazing photographer.
So she was able to really capture what Iwanted, um, in the, in the book as well.
(47:07):
I knew I wanted to focuson Sierra Leoneans.
But after that trip, it really, Iwas very 100% sure that I'd gone down
the right route of just making itabout the everyday Sierra Leonean.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And people that people wouldn'tnecessarily write about usually.
Yes.
Or people that usually...
Yeah, absolutely.
People won't capture usually, I wantedto capture that because for me I feel
(47:31):
like they're the real magic of SierraLeone and it's the people that will
welcome you into their home and theirspace with a massive grin on their
face not expecting anything but justbeing super super friendly and want
to feed you till you're Stomach first.
Really.
So the best kind of welcome,the the best kind of welcome.
(47:51):
Exactly.
So it was very importantfor me to showcase that
Lecker is hosted and produced by me.
Lucy Dearlove, thanks to my gueston this episode, Maria Bradford.
(48:15):
Her book's Sweet Salone is outnow published by Quadrille.
As part of the new monthly Lekker bookclub, I'll be writing about the book
over on the Lecker sub stack and Patreon.
Have you got a copy?
Are you reading it?
Have you been cooking from it too?
Come and chat about your favouriterecipes in the comments over
there or tag me on Instagram whenyou post your finished dishes.
(48:35):
I'd love to see them.
I'm really excited to cook from it myself.
And just one more reminder beforethe end of the show, you can sign
up as a paid subscriber to supportLecker on Apple Podcasts and
Patreon and also now on sub stack.
Links are in the show notes.
Your support is really helpfulin keeping the podcast going.
And to any paid subscribers whoare listening here, thank you so
(48:58):
much for your continued support.
It means the world.
Music in this episodeis by Blue Dot Sessions.
Lecker Book Club will be backin August with another delicious
read for your kitchen bookshelves.
Thanks for listening.
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