Interview With The Principal - Ken Lerner/ Principal Flutie

Interview with the Principal Juliet, Scooby Chris and Scooby Frank sit down with Ken Lerner (Principal Flutie) for his most in-depth Buffy interview ever. This joyful interview includes highlights from Ken’s colorful life and impressive career.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, hello.
I'm Juliette Psst.
We're going to sleep.
Want to come?
I'm so excited for you to behere today and to get to talk to

(00:29):
you.
Oh, thank you so.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Julia, I don't know if we were ever in a scene
together, were we?

Speaker 1 (00:35):
We weren't.
We never got to work together.
I came in season two and Ican't believe this is the first
time I'm getting to meet you.
We never got to overlap on anyother shows or anything.
Ken, you're from Brooklyn.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
I am, Can you tell from my English accent?
Yeah, no, I came out to LA in75.
Yeah, but Brooklyn, you knowalways maintaining the Brooklyn
accent and I lose it when I haveto.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah, yes, it's a professional necessity.
Yeah, exactly, it's inprofessional necessity, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Exactly, it's the thing that's in the background
all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
So, ken, tell us a little bit about your early life
, growing up and you grew up inan acting family, right, yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:15):
my brother, michael, was always acting in high school
and then at Brooklyn College,saw all of his productions and I
followed him from LafayetteHigh School where I was in it
was called the Sing where weperformed some musical stuff and
then Brooklyn College.
I did some acting there but itwas also the time of the Vietnam

(01:39):
War stuff going on.
So I minored in teaching but Igraduated with an acting degree
and also a teaching.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Did you ever teach?
Did you do any of that I?

Speaker 2 (01:52):
taught in the New York school system for a little
while.
I was a substitute teacher,which is a horrific.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
I was going to say that must've been crazy, was it
Horrible?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Just horrible.
I mean the kids, the secondthey find out there's a
substitute teacher, it's yahooDid you put that into your, for
your performance as a principal.
Believe me, I know teachingwell.
I mean, you know, I've been ateacher for a long time, so
being a principal is one stepabove that.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
And did you always know that you, even when you
were teaching, that you were aperformer and that you were
going to do that?

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, while I was teaching, I was studying with
Stella Adler with Stella Adlerand that was an amazing
experience.
She was a very, very toughteacher, but incredible.
I mean she was the lady of shereally believed in imaginary
circumstances.
I mean she was the lady of shereally believed in imaginary
circumstances.
So you had to write youreverything about any kind of

(02:48):
scene you were playing.
You had to write the wholebackground and you know it helps
and I you know I did thatpretty much on a lot of stuff
that I've done.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
I probably did it for Principal Flutie, I imagine.
So you write out your characterbio, like the whole history,
and all that, yeah, bio, what's?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
you know where I came from, what I've done, what my
aspirations are?
All the things that you knowwent on.
Now I don't know, did you getan opportunity to work with
Charlie Martin Smith, because hewas the director of my Buffy?

Speaker 1 (03:17):
I didn't work with him.
I worked with so many otherdirectors but never with him.
But I know you worked with himquite a lot.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, he was at the beginning of the whole
experience.
Yeah, to get back to you know,my brother was acting a lot and
then he went to.
He had a Fulbright scholarshipto England and Stacey Keach
greeted him at the airport.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Really.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, and he was the only person of that year actor
to go to Lambda and LondonAcademy, yep.
So that was his background.
Then he went, he was atBerkeley and then he was in LA
and I used to visit him in LAand then I said, ok, I've done
off-off-Broadway, I've studiedwith a lot of good people.

(04:00):
So I came out to LA and thenstarted working like crazy right
at the beginning.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
You were in Ron Howard's directorial debut,
Grand Theft Auto.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
I was.
That came out of.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
my first job was on Happy Days, yeah yeah, was it
Happy Days or was it VernonShirley?
No, happy Days.
Happy Days was first, yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Happy Days first, and those were the days when you
could play a lot of differentcharacters, and so I would be
Rocco Beruffi, then I'd comeback as Frankie Bing Bong, then
I was somebody else, and it'sjust that's the way it was, and
that was a great training ground, and the director was a
gentleman named Jerry Paris.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Oh, jerry, the Neighbor from Dick Van Dyke Show
.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
You got it.
Yeah, what a great man,unbelievable and just a real
mensch.
I mean, he was kind of like mymentor at the beginning of my
television career.
He was.
Always I would talk to himabout stuff and he was right
there.
And of course, gary Marshallwas on set.
Gary actually directed me athis theater called the Falcon

(05:01):
Theater.
He has a theater in Burbank andhe came in and directed Arsenic
and Old Lace.
Oh yeah, it was wonderful.
How fun.
What a great man.
So, yeah, no, those peoplereally cared.
And I'll never forget.
I was driving on Melrose and acar behind me honked, pulled up

(05:21):
beside me.
It was Jerry Paris and he saidyou're're gonna get a series.
How great.
But he was great.
I mean, joe, what, what youknow.
And then it was lowell gans whobecame.
Those guys wrote babaloo mandeland lowell gans yeah, and all
those people, yeah, and ron, uh,was talking about that.

(05:41):
He was directing, gonna directa movie and he asked me if I
wanted to be in it.
I said, sure, got to be in ahelicopter strange Roger Corman
movie that he directed andstarred in.
Every time there was a partthat I was right for in a Ron
Howard movie it went to hisbrother.
But I ran into Ron at a partyand my son, sam, was an actor.

(06:04):
I said this is a perfectopportunity.
I'm going to have Ron talk toSam about what it's like to be a
child actor.
And Ron was so kind enough tosit down with Sam and talk to
him about, you know, beinglevel-headed, and we, of course,
always.
My son was an actor, but he wasa regular kid, you know.
He played baseball, basketball,baseball basketball, and it was

(06:25):
all that he wanted to do it.
So we said, fine, sure.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
And you've worked with Sam on a number of things.
You did a Wells Fargocommercial and you also worked
on the Goldbergs together.
Have you worked together otherthan that?
And also with your daughter,Jenny?
I know she, as well as actress,director, producer too, we did
the Wells Fargo commercial.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Sam actually played me at the age of 35, and he was
22 or 24 at the time, so theyput a beard on him and they aged
me down to 64 and then to 80 or70, whatever it was, and I was
on a Segway.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Segway, oh Segway.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was on that, that whichscared the crap out of me.
But, um, it was amazing to seemy son 10 years older than what
he was and he really looked.
And he looks like that now.
Wow, the uh wells fargocommercial it was uh.
Yeah, that was wonderful, butworking with my son on the
goldbergs is one of thehighlights of my life.
I mean to work with your son.
You know, I did 30 episodes ofthe Goldbergs and he was regular

(07:31):
for eight years, started off asa co-star and just became a
regular.
You know, the only actor I everworked with.
That I could just tell.
You can't do it that way becausethat doesn't really work.
That way, because that doesn'treally work.
I've been crying and crying,laying here in the hospital bed,
that you get it.
That's how it's.
You know you can't do that withany other actor.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
You suddenly can get away with it, incredible though
for you guys to get to sharethat whole journey and that
experience in that way.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Wonderful.
I mean every morning that weworked on the show, getting you
know, going into our trailersand going into makeup, and it's
my son sitting there and I wouldalways ask the makeup people
has it been nice this week?
Is you know what's going on?

Speaker 1 (08:16):
You were checking up on him all the time.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, it was a great show.
It was a great show.
It's very sad that me and Mindyhave talked about the loss of
the show, because it was sowonderful to be on that with all
those people you know and mydaughter, jenny.
I did a play with Jenny.
It was wonderful working withher and she's now teaching and

(08:38):
running a Jewish camp and sheworks with kids and she got me a
granddaughter, which iswonderful.
My little Sadie.
So that's exciting.
So I auditioned for Friends andit was one of those auditions
where you go in the morning andthey say, okay, it was like

(08:59):
eight of us.
Everybody goes in, comes out,stay, because you're going to go
to work right after.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Go straight to wardrobe, right, like you're
going to send you out, yeahexactly.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
So I went in probably fourth or fifth, and I did what
I thought was good, came outand then, after everybody, they
came back out and said OK,everybody go home.
Ken, can you come back into theroom?
So that's a great sign.
I thought that was wonderful.
So the producers were all thereand the director and I said now
, guys, you know that I can'twork late on Friday night.

(09:32):
They said what are you talkingabout?
That's when we shoot.
And I said well, my daughter isin a play Little Shop of
Horrors and she's starring in itand it's her only performance
and I can't miss it.
So I'm very sorry.
I thought my agent worked thatout with you guys.
So I said no, and I walked out,walked into the parking lot and

(09:53):
the casting director camerunning after me and said Ken,
we want you, we want you to dothe part, we'll work it out and
we'll shoot out of order.
And so they did that on the dayof the shoot of order.
And so they did that on the dayof the shoot.
They said you don't have to bethere for the bow at the end of
the show.
They said we understand, andthey did it.
So I was able to shoot my stuffand get to see my daughter in
middle school in Little Shop ofHorrors.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Oh wow, that's great.
Nice to get at a point in yourcareer where you actually could
pull that like, where you couldactually say no, because it's so
tough when you're starting outas an actor.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, well, this one was tough, I'll tell you.
But also the money.
Friends is on forever and I getrecognized for Friends a lot,
but family comes first.
What a beautiful story.
Oh, I love that story.
It makes me seem great.
I'm not that great, but in themoment it just had to be done,

(10:44):
so that's what I did.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Well, and it was a testament to your work that they
wanted you enough and weregoing to change the schedule and
that you were able to wereputting your family first, and
that you were able to do both isjust.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, it was great, great show to work on Wonderful
people.
They were making a million anepisode.
I was making just a little less.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Just a little bit less Slightly, slightly Exactly,
and you worked on Any which Wayyou Can.
Can you talk about that alittle bit?

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, I never got to meet Clint Eastwood.
How about that?
My scenes were with a ferretand an actor named Harry Gardino
and I played.
I was the son of the head ofthe Italian mob.
The director looked exactlylike Clint Eastwood from the
back and it turned out he's hisstuntman and he directed this

(11:39):
movie.
And I never got to meet Clintand I always kept saying is
Clint coming?
Is he going to go do this?
No, clint's not going to meetClint.
And I always kept saying isClint coming?
No, clint's not going to behere, clint is not going to be
here.
Did you get to meet Clyde atleast?
Yes, oh, no, wait a second.
No, I met a snake and amongoose.
Yeah, that's what I met.
Yeah, it was a great experiencebeing in a Clint Eastwood movie

(12:02):
.
Sure.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, can you discuss a little bit about working on
the fabulous Baker Boys?

Speaker 2 (12:08):
The Bridges brothers and their father actually came
to the set Wow, that was anamazing experience.
And Michelle Pfeiffer I workedwith her husband a lot, david
Kelly, we shot maybe four orfive scenes.
I think three survived and Iunderstood when I saw the movie.
But Bo and Jeff were great towork with.

(12:30):
The cinematographer was MichaelBauhaus, who's very well known,
and he did some incrediblecamera moves and all of that and
it was a lot of first classproduction.
But my favorite movie that I'veever done was Unlawful Entry
because I played Kurt Russell'slawyer.
I had a fabulous role in it,worked with Kurt a lot, a great

(12:56):
part and a great movie.
And a friend of mine who I playcards with was the writer.
I got a great story.
I was asked by the director,jonathan Kaplan, who was a
friend of mine, who I workedwith on a few different things.
He said would you come in andread with the actresses who are
reading for the lead in UnlawfulEntry?
And so there was.
Every young actress in theworld movie stars were coming in

(13:19):
to read.
Elizabeth Shue came in andElizabeth Shue said to me would
you mind, because we wererehearsing it outside before we
went in, would you mind if Ikissed you.
I wasn't married at the time.
I said, yeah, that'll be okay.
So we did the scene.
She did a passionate kiss withme and she left.

(13:42):
And the casting director said Idon't know, it doesn't really.
She doesn't do anything for me.
And every man in the room saidtrust the testosterone.
He really nailed it and shewould have gotten the part had
it not been that madeline stowejust came out with all right a

(14:03):
movie that she did the MohicanThings.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it was a great movie and youknow Ray Liotta and Kurt
Russell.
I remember we were in a caronce.
He was talking to Goldie on thephone it was going to be the
break for Christmas.
He's talking to her abouttaking the jet to go to France
and I was saying I'm taking abus to go to Victorville for the

(14:25):
holidays.
A little bit of a difference,but wonderful guy.
Yeah, really enjoyed working onthat one.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
And what about your time on RoboCop 2?

Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, that was Irvin Kirshner, who's a huge.
He did Star Wars.
I believe, and yeah, that wasgreat.
I had not that much to do.
We shot in Houston.
I remember I was blown away bythe whole RoboCop thing, the
RoboCop, what he was wearing andall of that that.
You know, it was a veryinteresting movie and very

(15:01):
wonderful to work with IrvinKershner.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, and what was it like working with George C
Scott in Exorcist?

Speaker 2 (15:08):
3?
Unbelievable.
George C Scott was one of myheroes and we had a scene
together.
I was playing the head of thehospital and we had a scene
where, in rehearsal I'm supposedto walk in, george has his back
to me and in the room there areabout 15 bottles filled with

(15:30):
blood and plasma and that wassupposed to be his best friend,
who was killed and put intothese bottles by- the Gemini
killer.
Right, yeah, that was the scene.
I'm supposed to say to him whatthe hell are you doing here?
Get out, you shouldn't be here.
He's a detective.
So George said I don't want todo that.

(15:50):
The director said okay, george,what would you like?
And George said let Ken come in.
And he said what is your line?
And I told him my line.
You know what are you doinghere and I'm just going to turn
around and stare at him.
Now George C Scott has the mostintimidating stare of any

(16:12):
person because he shakes and hiswhole being was so intimidating
.
I believe the take that we usedwas me saying excuse me, sir,
what are you doing here?
He turned around, did thatshake, looking at me, and I said
OK, and I walked out, and that,I believe, is in the movie.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
That's the director is William Peter Blatty, who
also wrote Exorcist.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, that's an intense scene you two have in
that scene, because that's whenhe finally, like, breaks down.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, and obviously it was intense.
It sounds like the actual thatwhole and he was intense, it
sounds like the actual thatwhole and he was fabulous.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
He was like I heard all these stories about him,
about him being an alcoholic andabout all this, but his wife,
trish, was there and he was oneof those actors.
He would be playing chess,talking.
They said, george, we're ready,boom.
He would go on the set andright there, right there.
And I love that kind of workbecause it elevates you.
And I love that kind of workbecause it elevates you know,
when you're with somebody thatyou know.
It's like playing tennis withsomebody who's better than you,

(17:08):
so you just get better becauseyou know just their presence.
And he really improved thatscene.
I did a Columbo with Peter Falk.
You want to talk about beingintimidated.
So we're rehearsing the sceneand the scene is one where I'm
supposed to move from chair tochair and he follows me from

(17:29):
chair to chair.
And he said I don't like theway this is working.
All right, you play me and I'llplay you.
Oh, so I said Peter, you wantme to play Columbo?
He said yeah, I want to watchit.
So I did the scene and helooked to the writers and he
said all right, this is what yougot to do.

(17:50):
This, this, this, this I'll bein my trailer.
And then he came back and wedid the scene.
So playing Columbo to Columboso weird.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
What was that like?
It was amazing.
It was amazing.
Well, even this long later,when you went into Columbo, you
definitely channeled Columboright here.
Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
So what was it like workingwith Arnold on the Running man?
And how did you film that stuntwith the pen?

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Scared shitless it was.
I knew from the script that hewas going to stab me in the back
with the pen.
So they put on this big kind ofthing under my shirt and suit,
metal this way and wood down myback, and the idea was that
Arnold was going to, you know,write into it.
I'm nervous as hell about thewhole thing.

(18:43):
Arnold seems to be a differentspecies of human being.
I've never seen thighs that bigor arms that big, and so when
it came to it, I'm wondering ishe actually going to go through
the wood and into my?
So I do the scene and I'mreading all of this legalese and

(19:04):
legalese, and then he'ssupposed to sign it and he's
having a problem.
I said, okay, victim here, sign, sign right.
And then he goes.
And it didn't go through.
But I felt like it did look inmy face when I turned back to
him.
That wasn't acting, that waspure scared crap and I look like

(19:25):
a stiff hit.
Yeah and I go running off, andhe also is a little bit of a
jokester.
I had a scene.
Poor michael glazer was thedirector from starsky and hutch.
Yes, yeah, he was the directorof running man.
I'm supposed to come through adoor, so arnold thought it would
be funny if he smashed the doorshut and I couldn't get through

(19:47):
the door.
So the ball says action, ken.
Ken can't open the door.
And it was just that.
That was you know.
I mean, he just enjoyed it andyou know he was smoking cigars
the whole time and blowing smokein your face.
That's the governor of Oregon.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
It's exactly what you would think he'd be.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Exactly, you know, it was fun Again.
Running man was.
These are all I mean.
I was lucky in my career to bein some really wonderful stuff.
You know, beginning with HappyDays, I actually did.
My first movie that I did wascalled Hot Tomorrows.
That was an AFI movie directedby Martin Brest.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Oh wow, he directed Beverly.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
Hills Cop.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah yeah, he was at the American Film Institute at
the time and this was his thesis.
He handed in a 12-minute filmto them and we shot a 35-minute,
40-minute movie that he gotdonations from people and even
then I mean, the guy wasincredible and it was me and an

(20:54):
actor named Ray Sharkey I don'tknow if you guys know him oh wow
, yeah, so we were the two leadsand this was.
You know, I think I was here fora month, I did two happy days
and I did the lead in this movie.
I thought this town was theeasiest town in the world.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Work, work, work, great I mean you definitely hit
the ground running and it's socool what you were talking about
, the fact that you got to playthe three different characters
on happy days.
It's like summer stock orsomething.
I I wish that that still youwere able.
I once I was doing a series onthe wb and I got another role on
another series and because itwasn't scheduling, I I was

(21:34):
finished with that commitmentbut they said, oh, because she's
identifiable as this othercharacter.
Even though everybody wanted meto do it, I want the network
wouldn't let me do it and it'ssuch a crazy thing.
It's like that's the point ofbeing an actor, is that?

Speaker 2 (21:46):
you're exactly exactly.
Er, I did two differentcharacters.
Uh, nypd blue, I did twodifferent characters.
La law, I did two differentcharacters.
So there was always if theshows lasted long enough they
could bring you back right?

Speaker 1 (22:02):
yeah, because it was different than streaming,
because people waited week toweek.
So if it went on long enough,it wouldn't be the same thing
that you could track it, thatsame way.
So how did you get cast asPrincipal Flutie?

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Audition in the room, really had no idea what it was
going to be.
Kind of a mystery to me, thelady that was there who became a
big person at Fox, do you?

Speaker 1 (22:26):
remember, was it Gail Berman?

Speaker 2 (22:28):
That's it, Gail.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Berman.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, she was in the room I started doing the
audition and she was laughingand loving what I was doing and
I thought it was great.
Then they called and I got therole.
I think I had a conflict at thetime and I think my agents said
well, you should do this onebecause this is going to be good

(22:51):
.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
And yeah, and had you had a full script or did you
just have sides going in?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Just had sides.
Yeah, I didn't.
If I'm not mistaken, I just hadsides.
And then when I went to becauseagain this is the first episode
first everything, yeah, thesets were incredible, the big
cave that they had.
So you know, going in there, itwas just an amazing experience.
Who knew the phenomenon thatthat was going to be?

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, yeah, and for the people that don't know,
sides are just pages of a script.
Instead of getting the wholescript, sometimes you just get a
few pages that have a scene ortwo or three or four, but it's
just a few scenes.
So, of course, as an actor,it's always if you can have a
whole script.
It's so much more helpfulbecause you understand that the
world that you're in, you're notguessing a lot of the variables

(23:41):
when you're going in Absolutelyyeah, I mean I do a lot of
private coaching from my acting.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
You know I don't teach anymore, but a lot of
private coaching and anytimethey get sides I tell my young
students to get the script, getthe script, get the script,
script.
You know, do whatever you canto get more and more informed.
Even look at the sides of theother people.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yes, but always did that If I couldn't get a script.
You look at everything else.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
I was the guy stealing the sides for my cold
reading classes.
So I'd go in to read for oneand then I would take six or
seven sides that were sittingout there so I could use them
for my cold reading auditionclass Right.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Do you remember how the role was described to you?
Do you remember any of thespecifics that you were given
once you were hired or evenbefore you were hired?

Speaker 2 (24:33):
that carry over, I think it was more of a very
straight laced to the point finda principal took no nonsense
and stuff like that, and thatwas kind of my approach to
working on it.
And then on the set with SarahMichelle, things just started

(24:54):
evolving and it became looser.
I just came up with thisbusiness about her record and I
think it was my idea to rip itand then for continuity sake I
scotch taped it together andthey used that.
That I mean, that was awonderful moment.
She went right with it and youknow, I believe clean slate,

(25:17):
buffy, you know that's what youget here Things like that.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
First of all, it's just brilliant comic timing.
It's such great business.
It's wonderful that it came outof an organic acting moment and
you can feel that, because italso tells you so much about
your character.
It's basically the physicalmanifestation of how you say the
kids can call you Bob, but theydon't.

(25:41):
Like you're already, you knowall the things that you say in
the words, you get in thataction and it's like right from
the that first moment that wemeet you seeing that it's just
unbelievably wonderful thatdelicious moment, I think, when
they cast.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
When they cast me, they're not going to get that
much of a hard ass, they'regoing to get a little bit of
humanity and I think that comesthrough in my work.
So that was part of embracingthe idea of this girl who was
kicked out of her other schoolsand was coming into the new
school and to give her a chance.
And then, as time went on,things developed that we did.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
It's a great performance that really
characterizes this very specifickind of educator that's trying
to talk at the student's levelbut is really incapable of it.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Exactly, they're always trying to be your friend,
but they can't.
So, yeah, getting down on thatlevel, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
What do you think the key to the essence of the
character was for you?
Obviously it sounds like itdeveloped, and it developed
right when you were on set andyou were working in the scenes.
What do you think one of thoselike sort of that way in for you
?
That was that little kernelthat made it all sort of come
together.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Liking the, liking the kids and trying to
understand their teenage angst.
That was going on all the timeand, you know, dealing with all
of these different elements ofstrangeness that was happening
and trying to ground everybody.
So my job when everybody waspanicking was to try not to
panic up until a certain point.

(27:15):
Then, you know, all hell brokeloose, hell mouth.
But I think, more than anything, the authority, but also the
humanity, I think, was part ofit.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
What was like shooting at Torrance High while
the classes were in progress?

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Much better than when I shot a movie in Bulgaria,
where we shot at a prison.
And the alarms would go on.
We'd all have to stand to theside the prisoners would hope so
.
The alarms would go on, we'd allhave to stand to the side, the
prisoners would walk by, theywould count everybody as they
went and then they brought usback.

(27:54):
So working at the high schoolmuch easier.
I don't really remember toomuch interruption, I just
remember a lot of the times whenthere were school breaks, were
there bells happening while wewere working.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, yeah, there were, but they shoot in between
bells and stuff, right.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, I think I remember that.
I also remember it being veryhot.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
I once was playing a doctor and we were shooting at a
hospital and I had the lab coaton and to the left was where we
were shooting and to the rightwas the emergency ward.
These people came up and wererolling this gentleman in with
urgency and started asking memedical questions and I got
slightly apoplectic for a minuteand like you don't want to be

(28:39):
asking me, you want to be goingthat way, Like that way he
doesn't know what they're doing.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Wearing the lab coat.
You should know.
I mean, I've played so manydoctors and lawyers in my time.
The one thing that somebodytold me which is really true the
only people who will know thereal, real, real truth about
this is a real doctor.
But everybody else will buy it.

(29:07):
Whatever you're doing, I wasdoing irreconcilable differences
.
I had Ryan O'Neill on the table, knew all my lines, a lot of
medical lines, and the medicalprofessional who was there to
make sure everything was right.
He said no, you can't say that.
You can't say that.
You can't say that.
Here are the new words and itwas all medical jargon, huge

(29:32):
medical jargon.
So, for one of the first timesin my life, I took the paper of
what the lines were.
I put it into the cavity ofRyan O'Neill that was supposed
to be him laying on the.
You know, his head was here,his body was here and I'm
looking down at him and I'mspouting.

(29:52):
Well, you know, you have aninfarction of the and worked
fabulously.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
But you'd have to in that case.
I mean absolutely.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
There's no other way to do that you can't do that to
an actor.
No, it's wrong.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Especially with all of that kind of you know,
medical, really difficultlanguage that you're not used to
, saying there's nothing to hangon to.
Yeah, do you have a favoritemoment from the show?
Is it when ripping the reporttogether?

Speaker 2 (30:19):
That probably was my favorite Probably was my
favorite, I think when the hyenakids came across the table,
when they did all that kind ofmakeup on me with the scratches
and all that.
I think that was kind of fun.
Also, handling that stupid pig,Herbert, you know.

(30:42):
So.
There were, yeah, there werelots of you know memories of
that.
It's interesting because, asyou know, that studio where we
shot I think nothing else wasthere.
We were right, we were the onlyones using that facility.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
It was us.
We had it all.
You strike such a wonderfulbalance of humor and power.
We talked about it a little bitwhen you were saying that you
brought the humanity as well asthe authoritative figure One of
the examples in the Pact thelast episode that we get to see
you in the scene at the zoo,it's very comic.

(31:21):
And then you tell them thatyou're going to be watching them
and it is a powerful threat.
And how did you strike thatbalance and walk that line and
sort of get into the skin ofthat?

Speaker 2 (31:32):
I think it was kind of easy because those guys were
so weird and so raucous and socrazed, making noises and just
not being normal teen Well,maybe they weren't normal
teenagers, even far beyond thatto get them to pay attention and

(31:52):
to get them to really honor thezoo and to not do the stuff
that they wanted to do, that waseasy.
I remember those guys werereally good and, uh, scary, yeah
, scared the shit out of me andthat other scene with the zoo
sequences was that the la zoo?

Speaker 1 (32:13):
okay, yeah and when that, so the, when they do jump
over the desk and that wholedusting.
I mean you have so many shadesand colors and turns in this
scene as first you're sort oftelling them what to do, and
then when you start to sort ofget so out of unwieldy and it's
so dangerous and scary andthreatening your fear, that's so

(32:33):
palpable.
And then the scrapes on how wasit shooting that scene?
Because it's really such astrong scene.
And also I feel like at thispoint in the episode we've been
just learning more and moreabout your character.
We've just been bonding withyour character more.
So it's such a shock in termsof not expecting that.

(32:54):
And when they zoom in on yourlovely smiling face on the photo
of you on the desk, it's justsuch a sad moment.
But how you playing it, how didyou find all orchestrate and
find all of those colors?

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, I think the scary, the essence of knowing
that they were going to do whatthey were going to do and trying
to avoid it and trying to takecharge and trying to handle them
, I think made me be strongerand made me really.
And then, when things startedunraveling, I think my persona

(33:32):
lost my authority.
Losing that and getting thescratches and getting hurt and
knowing that things were reallygoing berserk Terrific was
terrifying.
You know, as an actor, you justhave to kind of go along with
it.
We're playing.
You know we have to go withwhat's going on in the moment,

(33:53):
and in that moment was fear.
They brought it and thechoreography was great.
The makeup on that show wasincredible.
As you know, I mean justunbelievable.
Just having that on my facegave me a.
As you know, I mean justunbelievable.
Just having that on my facegave me a little bit of what I
needed, for sure.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
How long did in terms of shooting that sequence?
Because obviously when you knowwe're shooting on television,
everything's moving fairlyquickly and we're doing a lot of
pages a day.
But how long did you have toshoot that sequence?
Do you remember, kind of, ifyou had a lot of takes and how
much coverage there was, and didyou do all the stuff without
the cuts and then the stuff withthe cuts?

(34:32):
How did the execution of that?

Speaker 2 (34:34):
unfold when we finally had the makeup and
everything.
We didn't have a lot of takesto do.
It would be because they'recoming across and hitting me and
I'm going down and all that.
So I think a lot of it was doneon them first and it was a long
scene, and then they came backon to me with that, all those

(34:57):
reactions and trying to, andthen it was a nice buildup.
I love scenes that have abeginning, middle and end, and
it had an end for sure.
So that, um, you know that,that, that memory, uh, I think
everything helped the way thoseguys were, the scariness of that
, the makeup, the wholesituation and the imagination

(35:20):
that all of that worked into it,you know yeah in the series is
an episode we just watched,teacher's Pet, and it's where
you're walking Buffy to a griefcounselor.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
You're just so brilliant in the scene where
you're trying to talk to her butyou keep reminding her and
yourself of actual policies asyou're trying to do this.
You could hug, you could giveme a hug, but actually you can't
give me a hug.
You see the conflict thatyou're going through of trying
to be a person but also keenlyaware of the school's policies
about being that.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Everybody there was.
You know it was a greatendeavor.
I think everybody was young.
You know I was one of the olderpeople and so being the older
people there and I guess havingmore experience that kind of
worked into the character and,yeah, interesting yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Did you know when you came in that you were going to
be going through episode six?
That that was the number ofepisodes?
Did you know that you weregoing to get eaten?
When did you find that out?

Speaker 2 (36:19):
That was like what those guys on the Sopranos would
say they would get a script andthey would, you know, keep
trying to see if their characterwould live.
I never even thought that thatwas a possibility.
And then I'm reading it,reading it, I'm going what?
And then the next thing I know,armin is showing up.
So it was a shock.

(36:40):
It was a surprise.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Why do you think Buffy has such legs with the
audience?
Because it's even more populartoday than when it was first on
and it just sort of grows, andduring the pandemic it was
trending.
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 (36:54):
I think the youth and being in peril, the classiness
of the way it was all shot.
The cast, everybody in the cast, everybody was really good shot
.
The cast, everybody in the castwere, everybody was really good
.
The writing was wonderful.
You know, girls really reallyreally kind of emulate, kind of
went with what Sarah was doingand what you were doing, what

(37:16):
you know, all the young peopleon the show, I think those that
you know made it work.
I had no idea that the show wasgoing to have those kinds of
legs.
If it was doing, if I knew that, I would have pulled a Joey
Pantoliano.
Joey Pants was in a movie.
Then he read the script and itsaid that he dies and was a

(37:37):
fugitive.
And Joey went to direct andsaid I'm not going to die, this
is a great movie, you're goingto do another one, so don't kill
me.
So they didn't and Joey got hisway.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
And he's in the sequels.
How has the fan reaction beento your role over the years?
Are there any memorable fanencounters that you've had?

Speaker 2 (37:58):
No, I run into a lot of when I've done those
autograph things, I run into alot of people that say well, I
have this autograph, thisautograph, this autograph, this
autograph.
I need you, I need this, andthey would pull out these
posters and, looking back on mycareer, it's one of the
highlights because it was such apopular show.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
It's wild.
We're doing a sequence wherewe're going to have the battle
of the Uber Buffy fans and we'vebeen getting people who want to
write in and compete and wantto be a contender in it, and we
just got one a few days ago andshe has watched Buffy through
between 50 and 100 times, wow,so she's definitely going to be

(38:36):
one of our contenders, becausethat's a lot.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
She might be the winner.
She might be the winner.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
You're good friends with Armin Shimmerman, who
played the part after me.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yes, and, by the way, Armin says hello, because I'm
dear friends with Armin andKitty as well.
He loves you so much and he wasso excited that we were getting
to do this.
He said to me that you werefirst of all, that he watched
the show because of you being init.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, I knew him yeah .

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, and then that you were instrumental in him
getting the role.
And for those of you thataren't immediately recognizing
Armin's name, armin playsPrincipal Snyder, the principal
after Principal Flutie Right.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
I don't remember, maybe I had said to Armin,
because Armin took my class, Ihad said to Armin, because Armin
took my class, my auditionclass, I believe, and then we
became friends.
There might have been thisscene class, I can't remember.
But I may have said to him youknow, there's this part on the
show that I know that they'regoing to.
You know, go with anotherprincipal, so you should look

(39:41):
into it.
That's probably what went down.
Oh wow, I did a reading of aplay in Aspen.
Now, if you know Armin, he's awhite knuckler when he flies.
Yeah, he's scared crackless.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
So is Chris, by the way.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
That's very relatable .

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Chris is trying to figure out how to white knuckle
his way from the East Coast.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
You can do it, you can do it, you can do it, you
can do it, you can do it Iappreciate that I'm trying to
figure out.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
I'm trying to figure out a way I can knock myself out
in the waiting area and thendrag me on the plane yeah, yeah,
when I was with orman, we hadto.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
we were flying into colorado, so it wasn't that far
for us to go, but I had no ideathat was what was going on with
him.
We did a two-character play.
It was great.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
First of all Armin just flew to and from Italy.
So he's obviously I think he'sgotten better, or he
white-knuckled it all the way toEurope and back.
I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Well, they did the Chris method, where they just
knocked them out.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
What was the play that you did?
Was it a two-hander?

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, it was a two-hander and it was a original
.
We did a reading of it in LAand the people who watched it
liked it so much they moved itto Colorado, so we did like two
shows in Colorado, which waskind of fun.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Incredible.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, yeah, I don't remember.
I mean when you talk to Armin.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
It's funny, when you get to a certain point with a
body of work too, that you startforgetting things like oh, I
did work on that, Like you know,which means that you worked
enough to have that happen.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well, the Goldbergs has helped me a lot.
But most of the time peoplelook at me and they say I went
to school with you, right, or doyou own a liquor store that was
, or did you know, my group?
Did you go to school with youknow?
Stuff like that?
I was once in a bank and I haddone a.
Um the commish, remember thatshow?

(41:42):
that was oh yeah, yeah, withmichael chickless.
Yeah, so I did an episode whereI was a child predator.
I was on line at the bank and awoman smashed me in the back
and I said what?
And she said you're not a verynice man.
And I said what?
And she said I saw that showand I said that's acting.

(42:03):
That's a role that's not meRight, that wasn a role that's
not me Right, that wasn't thenews, that was news.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
I think with Buffy for me the one benefit is I
played a vampire, so most peopledon't think that I am a vampire
, so that helps a little bit.
But I have had people have runacross a room screaming or
something and you're kind oflike, wait, why oh, have run
across?
A room screaming or somethingand you're kind of like wait why
you know.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Oh, you scared me so much and you're like I'm just a
person, I'm just an actor, but Ican't believe she hit you.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
That's just.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, she did, she absolutely hit me.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
She hit me in the back, well good thing she wasn't
a person who saw Running manand decided to reenact that bit.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Right, yeah, back.
It's a lot of work.
Do you have any high school ashell stories?
I think I was bullied in highschool and the reason why I had
problems was I just didn't knowhow to defend myself.
My father wasn't there.

(43:01):
My brother was an intellectualand read a lot of books, and so
you can't hit somebody with abook if they're coming at you.
I had a girlfriend who was thehead of the cheerleaders.
Turns out that the toughest guyin the school liked her.
He came up to me and duringlunch or recess or something and

(43:27):
he said you called my mother aname and in those days, calling
some guy's mother a name, youknow you can get killed for that
Especially at Bensonhurst?

Speaker 3 (43:36):
Yeah, bensonhurst, they don't play that.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
I said Dominic, wonderful name for a bully.
Dominic, look at me.
Do you think I would call yourmother a name?
He said I'm going to meet youafter school and then the buzz
came out that that was going tohappen and I did the most
honorable thing I could I calledmy mom and she escorted me out.

(44:00):
Then it was dropped and heactually started going out with
my girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
What?
Yeah, no, that's the end.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
I loved the end of the story till that part.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
It's okay, it's okay.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah, her loss.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
You know, that was that.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
She got Dominic the bully, so she didn't fare so
well there.
You got it.
Little did she know she didn'tfare so well there.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
You got it.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Little did she know.
Thank you, Ken, for sharingthat experience.
Was there ever a time in yourlife where you felt like an
outsider and where you felt likesomeone trying to fit in?

Speaker 2 (44:38):
I think that happens a lot, especially this is kind
of weird, but I think that youraudience this is a good thing
for them to hear.
When you're working with starsand you come onto a set and
everybody knows each other andyou're new, you feel so kind of

(45:02):
out of place until people comeup to you and people welcome you
, which is always something thatI've always done after that
feeling to make people feel athome anytime I'm on a set and
working with people, becauseit's really isolating and really
kind of scary.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah, when you come in for anything, whether it's
you know where you're coming infor a smaller part on a big film
or guest starring on a TV show,everything's sort of like a
well-oiled machine and you'rethe new.
You're like the new kid inschool.
Everybody has their thing andand you know it, it is.
You have to show up and giveyour hundred percent and find

(45:39):
your way within that which is isthat kind of feeling of.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
It's scary to be the new guy on the block.
You know in something to be thenew guy on the block.
You know in something and asyou get more and more
comfortable in your work and inyour career, I think you realize
that all of that angst ismisplaced and you need to get
rid of it because work comes outof just relaxation.

(46:07):
Relaxation, and you know thework is what's about.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if you you willalways find this, but I feel
like, um, you know, it's alwaysthat thing of like making the
bloodiest for not not literallybloody, but the deep the choices
that are going to involve youthe most, so that all that stuff
just slips away and you getreally invested in what you're
doing instead of all of theoutside forces.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, when I making hot choices, making the hottest
choice you can and connecting tothat and letting it feed you,
and so I do a lot of work on myscripts, I do a lot of interior
work and when I I teach, I'malways doing that.
I have a student now who's agreat story.
He, um came from chicago and uh, three weeks in I worked with

(46:58):
him in chicago, got a couple ofjobs, came here and uh, I helped
him and uh, he got a three anda half year contract on general
hospital Unbelievable.
And he's a major violinist andthey've used it on the show and
he's got a great career ahead ofhim and, um, it's wonderful to

(47:19):
watch.
You know, as an acting, haveyou ever taught acting at all?

Speaker 1 (47:22):
I have.
Actually, I have a coupleactors that I was coaching and I
have both of them have beenbooking so much work and it's I
feel like I'm I'm not a motherin in real life and I feel like
a proud mom in terms of it.
So it really I feel like I getso much out of it when they book
jobs.
I'm so excited for that.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Oh yeah, it's just such a wonderful feeling and
it's like you know you guidethem and then you know in, in,
inevitably it's going to be themdoing it and so, but you're
giving them of yourself and itreally does make you feel
fabulous.
I love teaching.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
For me also in my own life.
There's a lot of my life I feltlike an outsider in terms of
certain things about how I wasraised, and there's a certain
point where you kind of realize,oh, I don't really have to try
to fit in, you know, I don'thave to do that.
I mean, have you found that inany other areas of your life and
that as you get older, thatsome of that falls away and

(48:24):
becomes like it doesn't matter?

Speaker 2 (48:26):
As you get older, as the wonderful thing about age is
, you start losing some of thoseanxious, the things that make
you anxiety ridden, that youunderstand.
You can't do anything about it,you just have to.
Um, well, I can do this.
I was watching howard stern.

(48:47):
Howard stern had john ham on.
John ham said it took him 25,20 years, 25 years to go on to a
set and not be nervous, to justbe on the set, know that he's
good be present and not being sonervous right and you, and you

(49:07):
know, be able to deliver.
Now, nerves are good, you knowwe work with nerves, but I found
that really interesting.
And then there was an articlethat Jack Nicholson said if
there is one moment in a filmwhere he loses himself, not
aware of the camera, not awareof where he is, and it just, he

(49:29):
said, that happens once and he'sin every frame of movies and he
said it happens once thateverything else is technical.
You got to hit your mark.
You got this, you got that, andthen it's professionalism and
all that.
But I just found thatfascinating to hear that from
jack nicholson, that that ithappens, but it's fleeting and
it's that strange moment thathappens.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
It's funny I had so many thoughts from what you were
saying.
First of all, I think it's sucha great thing that you shared
that about John Hamm, because italso shows everybody that the
outside doesn't always people.
He looks like he's got theworld on a string, that he would
never have any of thosefeelings and we all do.
We all have, you know, it'suniversal, the kinds of feelings
that we have.

(50:12):
And then the other thing, thatwhat you're describing with Jack
Nicholson it's like Brando whenhe sort of looked at his
performance and said you know, Iwas in and out, I was in and
out, you know, but with I thinkus actors are a little bit and I
don't know Frank and Chris, youguys are actors too and I
always feel it's a little bitlike we're like those junkies
where we chase that high ofwhere it's so effortless and

(50:36):
free and fluid and stuff ishappening and you're surprising
yourself and there is nothingbut the choices working for you
and everything kind of juststreaming through you and you're
always kind of, you have thosemoments and then you're always
wanting to get to that state.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
No better feeling than that?
Yeah, no better feeling.
And it was like you said youare always chasing to get to
that place, but you know I havefriends that have said I was
great in this.
I don't think I've ever saidthat.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
I've never said that either.
Yeah, I don't think I've eversaid that.
I've never said that either.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, but I've had friends that say oh, I was great
, okay, good, yeah, wonderful,good for them.
Yeah, you know, there's alwaysyou watch your work and you go
okay, I could have done this, Icould have done that.
Well, that was okay.
You know, I think most peoplefeel that way.
But then you run across thatstrange actor that can't do
wrong.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
I want to know about this.
This job must have been unusualfor you.
You were in the video game LANoire.
Now what was the process ofshooting your work?
In that it was motion capture.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
So they put me in a motion capture.
They told me what was going tohappen.
They said me what was going tohappen.
They said the character isgoing to look like you.
We were on a mock I think theycall it a volume or something
and there was a table and Ithink the props were strange.
They were but they weren't, andyou're pouring and you know

(52:10):
talking the way I talk, and allthat.
They wanted New York, which wasBrooklyn.
I don't think that was aproblem.
So you know, and then I saw thefinal thing and it was
incredible.
My son, sam, did a motioncapture in a movie that in his

(52:31):
first movie, monster House.
Oh wow, he was Chowder inMonster House.
Oh wow, that kid.
That was motion capture.
So that was my first experiencewith motion capture, was seeing
it.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Oh, when he was doing it first.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
The director was Gil Kanan, who's now gone on to a
lot of other Ghostbusters.
He's doing the new SaturdayNight Live thing and my son has
kept friends with him and likethat.
But motion captures and veryinteresting.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Did you wear that sort of thing that looks like a
scoop Because I have done it tooand you wear it like a kind of?
It almost feels like you're ina scuba outfit with all those
little yeah, the black thingwith the ball.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
have done it too, and you wear like a kind of.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
it almost feels like you're in a scuba outfit with
all those little yeah.
And isn't it trippy to havethat thing on your head where
the camera is right there?
Did you have that?
And so at first I was like it'sin my eyeline.
It's so strange.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
And then they also say things like okay, smile now,
frown now, do this, now do that, and they just give you kind of
different emotions to dobecause they're clicking on the
computer and all you know.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
And did you look at the computer?
Because for me it's that 300,for me I was like I don't need
to have that much informationabout my 360 degree self ever.
Like it was so detailed, yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
I was fascinated by the whole thing and, of course,
watching my son do it andplaying in the volume and um,
just you know, uh, having fun.
He was nine or ten when he wow,I mean, that was one of those
jobs where, as a a father, I'mso proud of him.
But as a father I hated to puthim through the audition process
because it was never ending.

(54:14):
And then he finally got it.
We were on a family vacation upin Zion National Park and we
got the call from the directoreither it was Gil, or it was the
casting or his agent and theycalled and said he's got the
part.
And he went through hell.
And you know, you hate to seethat for a 10 year old, but he

(54:37):
wanted it.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Yeah, you know did you guys get to do your whole
vacation or did you have to comeback?

Speaker 2 (54:43):
No, no, we.
We had to cut his part a littlebit.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
There's always that thing.
We we always in our house endup saying like, oh, we should
book a vacation, becauseinvariably, whenever we book a
vacation, it'll be that a jobcomes through exactly at that
time and you can't do it.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
No question, law of averages, right.
So when you were in school, doyou remember what your principal
was like?

Speaker 2 (55:09):
I think in those days , principals, they weren't
around that much.
I think you know it was like weknew the assistant principal
because he would roam the halls.
What was he like?
He was a disciplinarian.
You know, don't do that, youknow, don't do that.

(55:34):
And uh, you know again,lafayette high school was one of
the biggest high schools everhere.
You know, we had, like I don'tknow, eight thousand nine
thousand I I there was someridiculous amount of people.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
So the principal um he wasn't stern with impeccable
comic timing.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
He never tore up any of my rooms and you didn't have
the desire to attack him overhis desk or anything.
So you talked a little bitabout you know, you talked about
Columbo and a number of otherthings.
You've basically guest starredon every major TV show.

(56:07):
I mean, it's unbelievable.
Are there any other particularones that you you know, any
stories that come to mind thatyou would want to share about
your time guest starring on?

Speaker 2 (56:20):
I mean, I worked with Dick Van Dyke on two, two of
his things and couldn't havebeen nicer, Couldn't have been
sweeter, and just wonderful.
I find that.
What's her name?
From Cagney and Lacey Tyne,Daly, Tyne, Daly.
What a wonderful woman.
She came over to me and said doyou want to rehearse?

(56:40):
I said yes.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
We rehearsed the heck out of the scene and then when
it was time to shoot, she wasvery giving and right there,
rehearse the heck out of thescene.
And then when it was time toshoot, she was very giving and
right there.
You know, uh, william hurt whenI did the doctor.
Uh, he was right.
Data good actors want torehearse.
Yeah, funny thing is, inworking on the goldbergs, judd
hirsch came on to uh aftergeorge passed away george siegel

(57:06):
and Judd was incredible,incredible storyteller,
incredible actor and wonderfulguy and I just I never knew him
and then became very close.
Really nice to work with peoplewho really care.
Wendy McCovey, she's incredibleand working off of her it was

(57:28):
like a real good tennis matchJust seeing how things go and
the writing was so great on theGoldbergs.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
You're in a very formative movie for me, as we
talked about when we justrewatched the pack.
I am deathly afraid of chimpsand that's because of the movie
Project X instilled a fear ofchimps in me that I still have
to this day.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
You know I did research.
Those were the days when Iwould do.
I drove all the way out to anarmy base to do some research
about what it was like to be anarmy, to be a gatekeeper for the
army, kind of like lettingpeople in and raising the the

(58:12):
the flag to come in andinterview them and all that.
So I spent time.
I did the same thing on aproject where I was playing a
cop.
I in those days I think actorswell, me, I was younger I would
really pursue trying to getpeople to help me what it's like

(58:33):
being a cop, sat in the officeof a detective, talk to him
about what that's like and allof that.
When I played lawyers, I jokedthat I did so many lawyer parts
I could pass the bar.
I mean, you know, they see thisface and they say lawyer.

(58:53):
And as I got older I became ajudge.
But she's job in television ormovies because you don't have to
go to wardrobe.
They give you a big black robeand so you just show up and
you're wearing that.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
I, like you, love, um , when you work with actors that
want to rehearse and want toyou know and and, just because
then when you are in the scene,you're exploring things and
you're not just sort of findingyour way, you're just you know
it's.
You can basically rehearse onfilm, as opposed to you know and
and and have a freedom with it.
When I was, we were doing aninterview with TV Guide for this

(59:32):
show and David Boreanaz wasended up making fun of me
because the reporter saidsomething about us being on set
and he goes well, this is Julieton set.
I work with music often, so heput on like and he was like do
you want to run lines?
Do you want to rehearse?

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Do you want to run lines?
Do you want to rehearse?
Do you want to run lines, doyou?

Speaker 1 (59:50):
want to rehearse?
Do you want to run lines, Doyou want to rehearse?
And he did it like 50 times.
I was like okay, all right thatcomes from your dance
background?

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Yeah, probably, but can you tell us a little bit
more?
I know it's been pepperedthrough the conversation, but
about Ken Lerner Studios yeah,when I was studying with Roy
London, I took his classes whenhe first started small classes
and then it got bigger andbigger.
He was seeing that I wasgetting job after job.
He said you're working a lot,aren't you?
I said yeah.
He said I have this thought I'dlike you to teach a cold

(01:00:32):
reading class for me.
So I was the first teacher thatRoy had, so people in his class
and Roy would offer you cancome to Ken and, you know, do an
audition class with him.
And so sometimes I was doing, Ihad people in my class who was
also in my scene class, in thescene class that I was with Roy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
So teaching and working with them in class.
That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
And that was when I started teaching and the love of
teaching happened.
And I tell you, as an actor,being able to teach, to not have
any other job and to just actand then being an acting teacher
, was incredible for me.
So it always.
I had my studio for like 20years.

(01:01:20):
I was partners with a womannamed Ivana Chubbuck oh yes, is
very popular now.
We were partners.
She was the second teacher forRoy.
Then, when Roy passed away,unfortunately from AIDS, we took
his students and then we splitup because I was acting more and

(01:01:42):
she wanted the acting All timeteaching, yeah, full-time
teaching.
Yeah, so, but then I wasteaching a lot and you know
teaching three classes a weekand had 25 people in my class
each.
You know each class it wasgreat.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
I read that you frequently were called upon by
networks, production companies,studios including Disney, abc,
nbc, cbs to privately coachactors for pilots, movies and
television.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Disney called me in to work with some kids at times
and they would send kids to me,which is always tricky because
you always had to have a motherin the room or a father and a
lot of the times, very hard toteach kids because they don't
have a history and everything isbeautiful.
Your building't have a historyand everything.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Your building is on a history right, Right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Yeah, so you know.
I mean that's basically.
You know, get a life, have alot of experience.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
And then come back.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Right, so yeah, so I did a lot of that onset coaching
.
What's your favorite genre?

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
to work in.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
You know, I get asked that I've been lucky enough to
do comedy and drama almost equal.
And so, um, I would imagine,probably comedy, because I
probably have done a little bitmore comedy.
I did loads and loads ofsitcoms, three camera shows and
all of that.
But, um, I like to work.
I mean I two weeks ago I did asmall movie called Auschwitz,

(01:03:12):
bagel.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
That's a grabber of a title, isn't that a great?

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
title Just about Jews at a funeral and I was the
rabbi and it was great and youknow it was a small movie and
you know there was a woman therewho was 95 years old named
Bunny Levine 95 years old, wow,and she knew her lines and you

(01:03:37):
know we had to help her walk andstuff like that, but it was.
You know, the love of actingnever stops.
You know, you don't retire.
I think we've chosen a greatprofession that we get a chance
to enlighten people's lives andbring joy, and I think it's a
really honorable profession thatwe do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
What else is a big part of your life these days?

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
My grandchild takes a lot.
We're going to see her tomorrow.
They live up in Simi Valley,which is about a half an hour
away.
That's the biggest change ofeverything and, I think, just
relaxing into being an olderactor.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
You've been with your wife since 1987.
And am I correct that she was areporter for the LA Times in
the 80s and 90s?
She worked in national parksfor half of the year and lived
in LA the rest of the year.
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Well, no she would go for about two or three months.
I said, if you want to do that,because she loves camping and
she loved Zion and Bryce myson's Sam his middle name is
Bryce she loves that area.
I was always going out withactresses.
That was, you know, I was ayoung actor and I was going.
That's who I met was young andthen I met my wife and she was a

(01:04:52):
journalist and her friends wereall journalists and it was a
whole different world and it wasexciting to be not.
Did you get the part?
What's the part?
Did you know it's the part, didyou?
get something's all differentyeah yeah, it makes a total
difference to be with someonethat doesn't understand the
business.
She thinks she can act well.

(01:05:14):
Yeah, and she was a reallyfeisty crime reporter.
She went to McDonald's.
The massacre in McDonald's inSan Diego.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Yeah, she actually, I think, interviewed the
Strangler.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Oh, the Hillside, Strangler Hillside.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Strangler Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Yeah, she was the LA Times Crime reporter.
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
So she saw some stuff .

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
What made her interested in that avenue in the
crime angle?

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
She was always fascinated by questions.
She's on the internet athousand times a day.
She's looking at the stuff andfinding out, and looking in the
dark web and finding out,whatever, whatever, that's just
a reporter curious person.
Yeah, they're a whole differentbreed, we don't know.
Just like actors are adifferent breed, reporters are a

(01:06:06):
whole journalist or a whole.
I went to a wake for a reporterjust the other day.
Michael Connelly was there.
He was a reporter that worked.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Yes, I just worked with Michael because I'm
recurring on.
Well, I had recurred on Boschand now I'm doing Bosch Legacy.
And yeah, Michael, his booksare all about that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Unbelievable.
Yeah, so my wife knew Michaelwhen he was a reporter, so
together, so he was there.
It's just a different mindset.
Yeah, they are so interested ineverything, we're interested in
who's the director and who'sthe director.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
No, but to be fair, you're interested in human
behavior.
It's not so in those areas.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
right yeah, You're curious You're interested in
human behavior.
It's not so in those areas,right yeah, curious You're
curious what makes people tick?

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
You know yeah exactly .

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
I always say everything I'm doing is research
, so places or meeting someonethat you're like.
Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
And it just does come .

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
You know what the weirdest thing is for actor?
Well, for me, whenever there'sit's horrible to say there's a
murder or an assassination orsomething like that, what does
he look like?
Can I play that part?
I mean, it's horrible, butthat's what you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
That's what I do.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
Oh, you know what I did?
I did Dahmer, that monster,right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Well, that was interesting to work on because
the part I played was based on areal guy, so I didn't search on
looking at the guy and seeingwhat he was like and I really
didn't look like him.
Looking at the guy and seeingwhat he was like and I really
didn't look like him and I triedto put on some kind of accent
and worked on with the directorworking on the monster thing and
reading the script Gettingbehind.

(01:07:59):
That was really interesting,exploring that kind of serial
killer kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
What would you say is a secret to having a long
marriage?

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
Compromise.
That really is what it's about.
You really do, because you'renot them, they're not you.
You're two different people.
You really have to understandthat sometimes it's just you
have to make allowances.
You're going to be your way,I'm going to be my way, and
that's how we have to meet up inthe middle.

(01:08:32):
Of course, having our kidshelps and dealing with those
problems and you know, raisingkids in this town is an
interesting prospect.
But I would say long marriageis compromise.
You just have to.
That's what it's about.
How long have you been married?

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
We have been married.
We always forget ouranniversary.
I'm like I think it's now Deb.
How long have we been married?

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
That's how long they've been married when you
have to ask that question?

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
It's the best thing that's ever happened to either
of us.
Like we really it's likeseriously but.
I think we've been married.
I think we've been married.
It's funny Both of us forgetour anniversary every year and
we're like, oh, it happenedagain.
But it's great because we bothdo, because I feel like every
day we're just thankful to betogether, so we don't really
need the anniversary to mark it.

(01:09:18):
But I think it's about 16 or 17years.
Oh, that's fabulous, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Good for you, he's the best.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
If you had a dream project, what would it look like
?
It?

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
would probably include my son and my daughter.
It's very personal, but I thinkthat would be working with
family.
I think would be the biggestthing that I would love to do.
And you know I've worked withgreat, great directors over the
years.
I think the wonderful thingabout a director who really

(01:09:50):
knows what they're doing is oneword can change everything, one
word to guide you.
You know, they come over to youand say Les, or you've met him
before, or whatever, and it justgoes right to the point and
they, you know it's like havinga real good acting coach in
front.
I think those are the bestdirectors Because there are are
the best directors Because thereare a lot of directors that

(01:10:11):
just know camera and lights andall that kind of stuff or that
overtaught.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
You know Al Pacino said when he was directing I
actually worked with him at theactor's studio, but he said that
the worst directors sometimesovertaught and tell you and he
didn't want to be that kind ofdirector when he was first
embarking on directing If theactors were doing a good job, he
just wanted to shape it whereit needed to, but he didn't want

(01:10:35):
to actually kill the thingsthat are working and sometimes
directors feel like they need tosay something or they need to
put a stamp on it and it canactually make things go and in
not the best direction I wouldlove to um be able to find a
project that I could do with myfamily.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
My son got into producing.
He's got a movie that he didfor Blumhouse that he produced
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
Wonderful yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
So it's going to come out soon.
He's going to see it in August,directed by Michael Landon's
son.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Wow, he directs Scream.
He's directed a Scream, okay,yeah, so it's a nice big movie,
so he's kind of getting intothat well, hopefully we'll get
to work together.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Yeah, nice, that would be amazing and this has
just been so.
You're just a joy to spend timewith.
It's flown by and I knoweveryone who loves buffy and
everyone who loves Ken Lerner isgoing to be so excited to hear
all of the riches that you haveshared and imparted today and

(01:11:38):
your humor and just everything.
It's just been so, soincredible.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
That's great.
I love your energy.
Every time that you've eversent back to me it's a whoopee
and yippee and I'm so happy andit just comes across.
And now, meeting you, it comesacross, so it's great.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
See you next week when we'll do it again.
Do it again and, mostimportantly, until next time, go
out and slay it.