January 23, 2024 • 38 mins
Discover the leadership secrets that can transform your team from functioning to phenomenal as I'm joined by retired Lieutenant Colonel Mark McMillian. With a storied 22-year military career and a passion for coaching as the founder of McMillion Leadership Associates, Mark offers a wealth of knowledge on the importance of clear communication and defined expectations. Our conversation is a treasure trove for anyone looking to inspire and guide teams to greatness, especially in high-pressure environments.
Navigating the rough seas of conflict with emotional intelligence—this is what separates good leaders from great ones. We unravel the complexities of managing stress and interpersonal dynamics in today's high-stress climate. Drawing from personal experiences, including stories from frontline employees like Mark's daughter during the pandemic, we spotlight the need for self-awareness and understanding of others' emotions. Whether you're leading a public-facing team or an internal corporate group, the insights shared here will equip you with the skills to create a more harmonious and effective work environment. Join us as we explore the power of emotional intelligence in leadership, an essential tool for anyone striving to excel in their role and foster a thriving team culture.
To connect with Mark McMillion, please visit McMillion Leadership Associates: mcmillionleadership.com
Please connect with me on:
1. Instagram: stephen.mclain
2. Twitter: smclainiii
3. Facebook: stephenmclainconsultant
4. LinkedIn: stephenjmclainiii
For more resources, please visit Finance Leader Academy: financeleaderacademy.com.
- To learn more about the Conflict Management and Emotional Intelligence training, you can find it here.
- On the website, you can download the Become a Finance Leader Guide. You can use this guide to build your Finance Leadership skills so you can help senior leaders develop and execute the strategy.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephen McLain (00:04):
This week I am sharing my interview with
speaker and author MarkMcMillion of McMillion
leadership associates. Markconducts training and speaks to
corporate teams and otherorganizations. We talked about
leadership, how to planeffective team meetings,
communication, and conflictmanagement. Please enjoy the
(00:27):
episode. Welcome to the financeleader podcast where leadership
is bigger than the numbers. I amyour host, Stephen McLean. This
is the podcast for developingleaders in finance and
accounting. Please considerfollowing me on Twitter,
Facebook, Instagram andLinkedIn. My usernames and the
links are in this episode's shownotes. Thank you. This is
(00:49):
episode number 117. And I aminterviewing army retired
Lieutenant Colonel MarkMcMillion. Mark is a seasoned
leader with over 25 years ofleadership experience, who is a
graduate of the United StatesMilitary Academy at West Point.
He was invited back later in hiscareer to teach at West Point.
(01:09):
As a veteran leader. He'slearned and practiced the soft
skills of leadership. Mark isthe principal of McMillion
leadership associates. And Hehas authored several books.
Please enjoy this incrediblediscussion in I'm sure you will
leave with a few insights youcan apply today. Welcome to the
finance leader podcast, I have aspecial guest and longtime
(01:32):
friend and colleague joining metoday, US Army retired
Lieutenant Colonel MarkMcMillion. After retirement from
the army, Mark founded McMillionleadership associates where he
gets to live out his passion ofteaching and inspiring others on
leadership, building trust,workplace culture, and many
other critical topics. Welcomemark to the finance leader
(01:55):
podcast. And please tell us alittle bit more about you. Hey,
Steve,
Mark McMillion (02:00):
great to be here. Great to see you. It's
been a while since we've seeneach other face to face. But I'm
really excited to be with you.
And I'm a big fan of the financeleader podcast. I love what
you're doing. About me, I know Igrew up in a small town, West
Virginia went through highschool, I was a big fish in a
little pond. Then I went to WestPoint, and found out that I was
not nearly as big of fish as Ithought I was. And I so I had to
(02:23):
sprint hard to keep up with thepack. And from there, I went
into the Army spent 22 years inactive duty as a field artillery
officer, loved it greatassignments, so many different
assignments, so many differentplaces. And then retired. And of
course, we served together mylast tour of duty with NATO in
Norway, which was magnificentcountry, magnificent Assam I
(02:46):
loved the work. But then Iwanted to come home to West
Virginia, and I wanted to comehome, I wanted to help West
Virginia as a state to getbetter. And I found out that
that's my mission, my calling inlife is to help others get
better. I'm not always going tobe I'm not going to be the guy
in the spotlight, I'm going tobe the guy helping others Excel
(03:07):
and do really well. And that'swhat I do now is I help
companies polish theirleadership skills and abilities
so they can execute better. Ihelp companies nonprofits, and I
do some individual coaching aswell. But that is where I
brought my life over a fewdecades. We don't need say how
(03:27):
many, but to help people getbetter. And that's what I tried
to do. Yeah,
Stephen McLain (03:34):
that's awesome.
Hey, I really enjoyed our timein Norway, you came in about the
year and a half or two yearsafter I showed up there one of
the things I wanted to ask youtoday, you have obviously served
in the Army just like I did. Butwhat are those some of those key
lessons that you learned fromyour army career?
Mark McMillion (03:54):
There are so many, I brought so many things
out of the army that helped methat I see sometimes lacking in
civilian companies. But I triedto help them. Three, three key
things that really come out forme are communication. The idea
is you really have to share withpeople what you want from them
share those expectations, setstandards and boundaries for
(04:17):
people. That was the firstthing. The second thing is
teamwork. And I've always lovedteams, I've always been part of
a team and I played football andbasketball growing up and in the
army, I think is the greatestteam of all. But that idea of a
group of people working togethertowards a common purpose. A
(04:37):
common goal is so powerful andquite frankly, that's one of my
biggest struggles since I leftthe Army as a solopreneur is is
that lack of team or what I dolove is I've been able to
integrate myself with some of mycustomers and clients as part of
their team. And the third pieceis really the commander's
intent, which is an extension ofcommunication. And that
(05:02):
Commander's Intent is sopowerful for a leader to
communicate with his or herpeople to let them know where
they're going. And if they do ifthe leader does that really
well, I know in the army, we saycommander's intent. And
sometimes in the civilian worldcommander has a low, negative
(05:24):
connotation to have imperious orwhatnot. But that's not what is
the leaders intent. And I thinkthat is a critical thing that
those are the three things thatI've really brought to bear and
help share with people in mywork with companies.
Stephen McLain (05:38):
No, I think that's a great list. One of the
things I think you really hit onwas that commander's intent or
leaders intent, one of thethings that I have noticed
working with corporate financeand accounting teams, is that
the lack of clarity on what theleader wants, if we were to just
nail down that leaders intent,we probably could avoid a lot of
(06:02):
the micromanagement, and alsothe lack of direction. But if
you really nail down thatCommander's Intent, or leaders
intent, to really, that leadertalks about what they really
want to accomplish either aproject or a task, then that
team could go ahead andaccomplish that task, knowing
what the final outcome issupposed to be, and not having
(06:25):
to always come back and askpermission, as they go ahead and
start accomplishing that task.
So I think that's a great, greatpart to include. As part of what
you learn in your army career,
Mark McMillion (06:37):
Steve, you used a couple of words that I really
love clarity, leaders have toachieve clarity in their
communication. And that leadersintent is the second part of
what you talked about how itempowers people, to get the
mission done, to do what theyneed to do to be successful in
(06:59):
that company. And that's exactlywhat the lesion is a great word,
you really, you really hit thenail on the head right there.
Stephen McLain (07:05):
We could probably talk the entire episode
about this. So but I do have acouple of more questions for
you. You did talk a little bitabout your transition to
civilian life after the armyonce you retired. But what are
some of the challenges that youhad to overcome?
Mark McMillion (07:22):
They've been mountains, it felt like
mountains, maybe they weren't,but it felt like mountains. One
of the things was was being asolopreneur that that that one
man band, and learning to do allthe stuff. I've never taken a
business class. No, myundergraduates in silver
engineering, I have a master'sdegree and some called cognitive
systems engineer, but nobusiness No, no marketing, no
(07:45):
accounting. No, say none ofthat's. So all that is, is stuff
that I had to delve into, andlearn the school of hard knocks
really, and quite, quitefrankly, I stumbled sometime,
but you learn failure is thatgreat opportunity to learn. And
I learned that. But the biggestthing was that as as I mentioned
(08:06):
earlier, was that lack ofcamaraderie of being that team
of having my team, my peoplearound me. And I'm very
fortunate, I have a greatfamily, I have four kids, and
they were all at home when Iretire. So I've always had my
own little tribe, so to speak,and my own family, but it's not
the same thing when you're outthere in the business world. And
(08:27):
I really, really missed that.
But that was the biggestchallenge. And then
understanding some of thedifferences in civilian culture
as a veteran, you know, fouryears at West one, which is the
military academy, 20 years andactive duty. My entire adult
life was deeply steeped inmilitary culture, and learning
that sometimes peoplecommunicate a little differently
(08:47):
in civilian world, learning thatpeople don't have that where
ranks on their shoulder or theircollar like like you do in the
army, and understanding that howcivilian companies work. Those
are the biggest challenges thatI've struggled with.
Stephen McLain (09:04):
No, that's great. Thank you for sharing
that. And of course, you know,on the finance leader podcast, a
passion of mine, and I know apassion of yours, is talking
about leadership. So one of thethings I wanted to ask you today
is why is learning leadershipimportant? Or why would learning
leadership be important to a newa want to be Team Manager,
(09:25):
particularly in finance andaccounting, where we normally
would focus on becoming atechnical expert and not
necessarily on our leadershipability, but please tell us what
you think about about learningleadership and why that's
important to a team manager outthere.
Mark McMillion (09:42):
Great question.
technical expertise is alwaysimportant, no matter what field
you're in, so I don't ever wantto downplay that. Too many
times, leadership, people talkabout leadership as if it's some
magic potion. But if you don'thave an underlying technical
expertise, you're too aim isgoing to understand that you
lack that technical competence.
(10:03):
So I don't want to downplay thatwhatsoever. But we'll take that
as a given. But the end of theday, companies, nonprofits,
they're groups of people workingin concert working together to
get things done, whether you'rean accountant, whether you're a
CFO, whether you're theComptroller, you've have to work
through other people. And that'swhat leadership enables you,
(10:25):
those are the leadership skills.
That can mean that clarity ofcommunication we talked about
earlier, the idea that when youcommunicate with some, you
appreciate their emotionalstate, you appreciate your
emotional state, to enable youto influence them positively.
And to get things done.
Unfortunately, what happens iswhen you enter that, when you
(10:50):
enter that company, that thatentry level, and that we're
technical competence iseverything. As you move up the
corporate ladder, you have tolearn as people skills. And if
you don't start learning them asyou go, you're going to run
yourself up to a cliff. Well,not Yeah, Cliff, but you're at
the bottom of the cliff. Andyou've got to figure out how to
(11:10):
get to the leadership top thatcliff. And that's a steep steep
climb. But if you do it as yougo, you're going to set yourself
up for success in the future.
Stephen McLain (11:21):
No, that's great answer. What the the other
follow on that, to that I thinkyou answered it started, the
answer was that one of thosefuture impacts on leading
learners leading leadership nowcan help with your career in the
future?
Mark McMillion (11:36):
Yeah, exactly.
And what you're gonna do, andremember, leadership's about
building relationships, fruitfulrelationships, relationships
that go above and beyond, Hey,Bob is see at the watercooler
every morning at the coffeemachine, where when you develop
those relationships, those arethe things that help you elevate
your game, help you elevateother people's games, and you
(11:59):
help other people get better.
And they're gonna appreciatethat as you go.
Stephen McLain (12:07):
You'll absolutely you also talked about
the difference between asuccessful leader and not? So
what do you think is adifference between being a
successful leader and anunsuccessful one? And then what
kind of advice would you give tothat new team manager out there
to start to achieve that longterm success? And I'm
particularly interested in whatkind of tools you could give to
(12:29):
a new manager? And then whereshould they focus when they
probably most of these managersdon't have enough time? To
really, to deal with all thetasks that they have to deal
with? How can they what kind oftools out there?
Mark McMillion (12:44):
I get asked that question a good bit by by
people, potential customers,other people just interested in
leadership. The things that Iemphasize, especially for young
leaders is time management, youhave to lead yourself before you
can lead others. And thatability to focus to achieve
(13:06):
clarity in yourself is criticalin order for you to achieve
clarity with others, and thatcommunication, good
communication. So many times Isee leaders stumble, because
they don't communicate meant oneof the two key giveaways that I
hear when I talk to clients.
Well, he should have known that.
(13:27):
Or the leader will say, well,everybody knows that. Typically
when the context was when one oftheir employees makes a mistake.
And when I hear those twophrases, those are red flags for
me, where that leader is notdoing a good job of
communicating. They're assumingsomeone knows a standard,
someone has something in theirexperience. We're not all the
same. And that difference inbackgrounds and experience.
(13:52):
That's what makes us stronger.
When a leader communicatesreally well. And by the way,
let's remember communication isnot always about transmitting.
It's also about receiving a goodlistening is a nother key
leadership skill that youdevelop, wherever you are,
whatever level you are, whereyou learn to listen to people
hear what they're saying, andnot just think about what you
(14:14):
want to say next. And I know I
Stephen McLain (14:20):
definitely think all of us are a little guilty of
that one. I had mentioned, as Iintroduce you to into the
podcast, and you also talkedabout some of your clients, but
companies reach out to you togive internal trainings to
speak. To give assessments. Youare asked to teach about
leadership and team culture,trust and many other critical
(14:42):
topics on developing effectiveteams in your assessments. What
do you consistently see on whyteams are not effective and what
are often the first actions thatleaders need to do to correct
that issue?
Mark McMillion (14:56):
I don't mean to beat a bit a dead horse but
community occationcommunication, communication, it
all starts with communication.
That's the first thing I talkabout. When I create a program
of instruction for a company, italways starts with communication
within that within that, though,is also the necessity to set
clear priorities. When leadersdon't set priorities, I use a
(15:19):
visual, I have a slide that Ilike to throw up, and it's got a
picture. The first picture is astagecoach with six horses just
gallop. And you can see they'rejust flying or everybody's
moving in the right direction.
That's a team with good clearpriority set by the leader. The
second picture is a wagon wreckwith horses, and they're all
(15:42):
tangled mass. That's, that'swhat a lot of teams look like
when leaders don't set thepriorities. Because you know,
this person pulls this way thisperson pulls that way. And even
if it doesn't result in a wreck,the idea is that when you have
members of your team pulling inslightly different directions,
you may still go forward. Butyou're not gonna go forward at
full speed as you can wheneverybody is on that same sheet
(16:06):
of music, and they all havethose clear cut priorities. So
prioritization, I think is areally underrated leadership
skill that many people overlook.
Stephen McLain (16:16):
Yeah, so what's a great tool in order to get
everybody on that same sheet ofmusic or that same priority?
What's a great tool that leadersout there can do or use?
Mark McMillion (16:25):
Well, I know as a finance guy, finance, people
are very attentive to thenumbers to KPIs yet leading
indicators, lagging indicators,and whatnot. Those are helpful
for the leader. And honestly,sometimes leaders don't
understand the numbers as wellas they ought to. So while
you're maybe a finance leader,you may be talking to the CEO or
(16:47):
the business owner about things.
Those are the things where youcan help that person understand
what's driving what a leader hasto understand if the leader
isn't asking the question. Andthis is kind of part of what I
call leading up. Sometimesleaders are not asking the right
questions. And that's where whenyou see things very clearly, you
can help them focus themselves.
(17:12):
By leading up asking questions,you don't tell your boss what to
do, of course, right, thatdoesn't work. But what you can
do is ask questions, and helplead their thinking to the to
what's important. And prioritiesare, what are should be what
drives your numbers to makethings happen.
Stephen McLain (17:30):
Nope, completely agree. I like that. The other
thing I wanted to ask you about,you have several books that
you've written and are inpublication, one of my favorites
that I've gotten in read, it'sabout conducting effective team
meetings. This is a particularlysensitive topic that I see all
(17:50):
the time I see it posted onLinkedIn, and other social
media, about why can't we havemore effective team meetings. So
tell us a little bit about thatbook and some of the key points
and where an organization canhave an effective team meeting?
Because I think it leads back tocommunication and clarity that
(18:10):
you had talked about earlier.
Mark McMillion (18:12):
It really does.
It really does. In fact, I wrotethat book out of frustration,
because I sat through, as I liketo say, 1000s of meetings. I'm
not sure that how much of anexaggeration that is over time.
And what I saw was, I thoughtmaybe that was an Army thing.
And then I started going to somebusiness meetings. I see. It's
everywhere. It we had thepandemic of bad meetings before
(18:36):
we had COVID. But the badmeetings, those are leadership
problem. I I'm glad you gave mea heads up and I brought that
with me. But that communication,it it takes discipline, Jocko
willing says, discipline setsyou free. And what he is talking
about, and I really love hiswork, is the idea that you set
(18:59):
those clear boundaries, and youstick to them. So everybody
says, Well, you know, to haveyeah, having a good agenda.
Well, yeah, of course, you haveto have a good agenda. But in
the book, I talk about having apre meeting instructions. And
that's where you tell people,hey, when you get here, this is
what we're going to talk about.
We're not going to sit aroundthe table waiting for you to
(19:21):
read up and do your homework.
Before we discuss it. That'swaste everybody's time. So
here's what I want you to do toprepare for them. I want you to
do your homework before we cometogether. So we're not figuring
things out and catching up witheverybody where we show up.
We're well versed in the topicand ready to go. The second
piece that see people come upshort in meetings, is what I
(19:45):
call pinning the Rose who hasresponsibility for what so we
talk about an issue we thrash itout, we look at the different
sides. And then at some pointyou got to look down the table
say, Lisa, I need you to takethe lead on this You have this,
you take this. And then I guessthe set the column as well like
Parts A and B, but the nextstep, and then the way ahead,
(20:07):
and that way head combined, kindof ties back to what we talked
about earlier with leadersintent. You know, this is where
we're going, this is thedestination. And that's for this
project for the company, for thecrisis does your, whatever
you're doing, the leader has tofigure out, here's where we're
going. The next step is the verynext thing we're going to do. So
(20:31):
as you finish your meeting, yougo through the topics, the task
says, Hey, Bob, you have this,Lisa, you have that, Joan, you
get this. So everybody has arose pin, and we know exactly
who's responsible for thosetasks, then we say, here's the
next step, it may be anothermeeting in a day while they go
work on those things. It may bemaybe waiting for someone to get
(20:55):
something else done to triggerthe next action. But it's a very
concrete step, you can't do outall the steps. That's not
reasonable. But you can get thatnext step. You can iron that out
and let everybody know,everybody's on the same sheet of
music. And then you have toweigh in and say, remember,
folks, this is where we'regoing. We want to be we want to
(21:16):
prepare to deliver product intime for the Christmas shopping
season. So we need to have theprototypes, all that stuff, user
testing all that completed aboutone November, so we're ready to
mass production, or whatever thetimeline might be.
Stephen McLain (21:32):
Yep, no, I like that. I think one of the other
parts of conducting a meeting isdecide on a meeting versus just
an email, I see that a lot onagain on posted on social media
is like, Hey, I just sat througha meeting where we probably
could have just done it, youknow, a phone call or an email.
(21:54):
I was. So what's the so what'sthe real trigger? To have a
meeting, we've gathered peopleaway from their day, to set
aside and discuss somethingversus just putting something in
an email and maybe a quickdiscussion or a phone call?
What's that? What's thattrigger? That we we grab people
(22:15):
out of their day to beat?
Mark McMillion (22:18):
That's a great question. And that's addressed
in the book as well. But theidea, why do we need a meeting?
Somebody says we need to have ameeting. Okay, well, let's let's
stop and think about that andsay, Well, why do we need to
have a meeting? Are we justsharing information, then that's
not a meeting, a meeting shouldbe you come together, and you
(22:39):
exchange information exchange,you should be duking it out a
little bit, there should be alittle bit of friction and
conflict, you know, argumentabout what's the best idea, hey,
what are the costs, if we do itthis way? What's the what's the
benefit if we do it that way,and that exchange of
information, that's for meeting.
Now, I'll also tell you the oneexception to that there are
(22:59):
times when a leader needs totalk to everybody. And it's,
it's not necessarily thatinterchange. But you know,
that's like a town hall meetingand the idea when when something
is happening, or a big event, ormaybe it's the holiday break,
the leader just wants to talk toeverybody all at once. But
generally speaking, we'retalking about smaller project
style level meetings. The ideais, do we need people to bring
(23:23):
things if not, let's just put itin an email. Let's distribute it
out there. And I know peoplesometimes suffer from email
fatigue. But when you make thispractice, when you set this
standard in your organization,when you bring the discipline to
bear, people will appreciatethat. And people will respect
(23:45):
that. And they know that you'renot sending emails out willy
nilly, and you're not CC andeverybody just because, yeah,
that question is, is thereinteraction required? If there's
not interaction required, thenyou probably don't
Stephen McLain (23:58):
need a meeting.
Right? Exactly. And I, and Imentioned the word email, you
know, a lot of companies now areusing other technology, you
know, like, Microsoft Teams, or,or some kind of other type of
technology instead of just anemail, but, but it's anything
that can capture the informationthat you need to share instead
of gathering everybody togetherout of their day. There's one
(24:20):
other issue with regarding themeetings and that's, I've often
got called to meetings when wejust want to get aligned. And I
think that's a habit of somepeople that they just want to
meet face to face and getaligned on a topic. And they'll
usually throw a 30 minutemeeting, grab people to just
kind of like, talk go over atopic. But the problem with that
(24:45):
is that when you start to getinto that habit of wanting to
just have a meeting to getaligned, you start to see your
calendar filled up with a lot ofthese types of meetings. So what
what's a good way to avoidYou're constantly filling up
your calendar with these 30minute alignment meetings.
Because alignment
Mark McMillion (25:05):
is so critically important. And that's that's
what makes priorities matter isthat's what priorities is they
help you get aligned. Somebodyis hand holding, you know, where
a leader is, thinks everything'sgoing wrong. When you work for
someone like that, that's whereyou have to be a little more
aggressive and push informationto them. But just have just
(25:30):
thrown in a 30 minute meeting, alittle catch up or whatnot, is
not, I don't think that'suseful, and it's not necessary.
What is important is to have inProgress Review set, and to
identify those milestones inthe, in the course of a project
or a plan of what you're doing.
The idea that, hey, we're goingto we're going to meet this, but
(25:53):
it can't be all the time, itshould be designated and planned
out. And really, barring somemajor change, you know, some
change in the environment, orthe operating systems or
whatever you're working in, youshouldn't need that when you've
set those clear priorities. Anda leader can do that, instead of
calling for that meeting. Justto touch base with your people,
(26:15):
one on one could be a phonecall, if you're if you're not,
if you're remote or notphysically together, faced, I'm
a big Africa face to face. Butthose are also opportunities for
that leader to, to touch basewith you to build those
individual relationships withtheir people. But just call them
people together to make theleader feel good. That's a bad
(26:36):
move. That's a bad move. And inlieu of that, is a leader can go
and visit individuals.
Stephen McLain (26:45):
You know, completely I don't know how I
like that. No, I like that.
That's a great answer. I thinkwe need to have fewer of these
alignment, on particularly smallissues, I think it goes back to
leaders intent. And if you havethe big picture aligned, I think
you can get the other smallerissues aligned a little bit
better. So yes, yes. So thankyou for taking us through, I
(27:09):
want us all out there to have alittle bit more effective team
meetings, because it's all aboutpreserving our time and focus.
And so we focus more time oncreating value, leading our
teams, instead of just going toanother meeting where we could,
you know, easily haveaccomplished the same thing and
an email or a quick phone calldiscussion. So I like that. One
(27:32):
of the other things that Iwanted to talk with you today is
that you and I have apartnership through finance
leader Academy, where you offeran on demand self paced course
that can help people deal withconflict management, and
particularly for public facingemployees. Now, I believe this
(27:52):
is a key leadership issue. Andthis is why I wanted to host it
on finance leader Academy. Thistraining was designed and
recorded during the COVIDpandemic when you're all wearing
masks. But I think that this isstill relevant today. There's
still a lot of tension, and alot of issues facing our public
(28:13):
facing employees. And and that'swhy I think it's so important. I
think that those employees whohave to face the public on a
daily basis, have to deal with apublic that's tense with it's
dealing with still dealing withthe after effects of the
pandemic, or even dealing witheconomic issues, like loss of
(28:33):
job or even inflation that we'redealing with right now. So can
you please just take me throughthe course of why you felt that
this course needed to be offeredthat I remember the reason going
back why this was so importantto you that you wanted to share
this type of training?
Mark McMillion (28:57):
Yeah, yeah. One, I am so glad that we partnered
together on that. I love that wewere able to do that. And I
appreciate your help, becauseyou brought some stuff to the
table that I could not get doneon my own. So huge. Thank you
for that. So yes, sir. And COVIDMy daughter was working in a
grocery store. She was afrontline employee. And she was
(29:19):
given no training, no guidancebecause no one knew and no one
was dealing with the problemsand stresses. But I'm sure you
remember where you were. Thereare people mask no masks, why
aren't you wearing a mask? Whyare you wearing that stupid mask
and just emotions? Sadly, oursociety just keeps escalating
(29:39):
going up in stress. It seemslike and you know, so a lot of
talk this year about inflationhas been layoffs, there's hiring
there's the Fed rate mortgagerates going up. The stress is
not going down in the worldaround us. So I think it's
imperative the leaders learn theconflict management skills that
we talk About in that course, alot of it comes down to emotion
(30:04):
to applied emotionalintelligence. And there's a lot
of models of emotionalintelligence out there. But I
simplify, I am very much on theside of pragmatism, I want to
know what works. I like theory,I love talking about theory. But
what works out there? First ofall, is you got to understand
(30:24):
yourself, you have to understandyour own emotions. Why am I
angry? Why am I irritable? Andwhen you start doing that, and I
give some, some ideas and sometechniques to help, check in
with yourself about where youare. And just acknowledging
those emotions and bringing themto the front of the brain and
said deep down inside that, theycall it the amygdala, the
(30:44):
reptile brain. But you bringthose that let you deal with
them, and you can mitigate andcompensate for them. You know, I
had a bad morning. My alarmdidn't go off, I slept late. The
dog got as leave and run the dogdown, bring him. So I'm kind of
hurry, Scurry. And I'm at work.
Like, if I just stop in aparking lot outside the office
(31:05):
and say, All right, all right.
Crappy morning. We don't sharethis with everybody else. And
just acknowledging that thatsets me up for success going in.
Because we've all we've allworked with people when they
have a bad day, they thinkeverybody should have a bad day.
No one likes that. No one likesthat. The second piece is
(31:26):
understanding when other peopleare having a bad day. And
realizing you may be all happy,happy, happy. But they're having
a bad day. You come in at thislevel, and they're down here.
There's some conflict there. Howdo you navigate that? And that's
the essence of that book, is howdo you recognize that and other
people, and then how younavigate that? What are some
(31:48):
things you look at some things Italk about our tone of voice,
some of the things I talk aboutour body language, and not
talking about micro expressions.
And if you saw a TV show a fewyears ago lie to me, which was
very entertaining. But it was aTV show. But I'm talking about
some very obvious things you canlook at and understand and
evaluate where people are. Andthat changes how you may
(32:10):
approach them in the moment. Andthat's what that whole course is
about. And we tried to build it,we broke it down into small
episodes. And we tried to makeit so it was easy to digest
right on your cell phone. Andthat's where we are with
Stephen McLain (32:25):
that. Yep, absolutely. So I know you're
originally designed the coursefor those, again, for those
public facing employees. But Ibelieve that the same principles
can be applied within ourcorporate teams, our teams that
have to deal with, you know, thestressors, of everyday work, and
dealing with each other andeverything, I think those same
(32:47):
principles that you cover in thecourse, can also help with
everyday teams and doing thework they're trying to get done.
Absolutely.
Mark McMillion (32:56):
In many times customer service is focused on
the public facing, but thereality is, in any company, you
have customers within yourcompany, whether you know
marketing has to talk tooperations was estopped, to
shipping, all those people arehave to work together. And
there's conflicts in everlean.
Why did they do that? What werethey thinking? So there's the
(33:16):
you get to the root cause ofthat, of course, you want to
learn and that almost alwayscomes back to communication. But
you also have to deal with it ina moment, when the guy comes and
says, I just got this, this isridiculous, I can't believe
let's deal with that in amoment. And those skills are so
critical. And it turns from aconfrontation, where you're
(33:39):
butting heads to you, there areways you can signal to someone,
hey, I'm not here to fight, I'mhere to get to a solution. And
it's amazing how the otherperson could transform. And
they're way up here to justfabricate. And once they see
that you're not ready to fight,you're ready to work. They can
(34:00):
come down so quickly, soquickly. And that's what
conflict management is reallyabout getting things done.
Stephen McLain (34:12):
I completely agree. I think this is this
topic of this type of trainingis really lacking out there. So
I think this could really help alot of our leaders, especially
our first time leaders and andfirst time managers out there
and this is probably a skillthat as you rise the corporate
ladder, you go from manager,Senior Manager to director to VP
(34:36):
that you'll be able to use thosesame skills and understanding
emotional intelligence and howthat applies. To be able to
manage the conflict that'swithin your own team. I saw I
think this is a great course. Wehave it on finance leader
Academy and like you said it'seasily digestible on the phone.
But thank you Mark for puttingthat putting that course
(34:57):
together and I think it's wouldbe a really good value add for
Are any of the teams that areout there, whether you're public
facing or not. So I reallyappreciate that.
Mark McMillion (35:06):
Conflict is everywhere around us. And it
seems like sometimes you can'teven go to the grocery store and
not eat. There's there's thatrisk of encounter. And it
doesn't have to always spiralup, it can level out and be
dealt with in time and place.
Yep,
Stephen McLain (35:24):
yep, completely agree. Mark, thank you so much
for joining me on the financeleader podcast, hey, please tell
us where we can find yourresources and where, where a
company could reach out to youif they wanted to bring you on
to, to conduct a conference ortraining or an assessment?
Mark McMillion (35:43):
Sure, thank you.
My website Macmillianleadership.com as MC million
like a million dollars, millionleadership.com is the best
place. And there's a Contactpage there along with reviews
about training speaking, as wellas some of the writing I do. The
books I you know, there's anaccompanying book on de
escalation, conflict managementthat's available on Amazon, all
(36:06):
my, my writing is available onAmazon, here's the meeting book
as well. And on Amazon, it'savailable in Kindle format, or
order hard copies like I havethere. That's the best place I'm
also on LinkedIn. I'm very, I'man avid LinkedIn user, I love
the platform. And then I writeit's behind a paywall. But
medium.com is I do a lot ofessays and shorter writings,
(36:30):
very much to the point. Butthere's a lot of leadership
stuff on there that I put out aswell. So those are the three
ways the website, my website,LinkedIn, and medium.com are the
three best ways to find some
Stephen McLain (36:46):
Mark, thank you.
Again, I'll make sure to add thelink to your website into the
episode show notes. Thank you,Mark. I appreciate all of your
systems and your input today.
And I really think what youtalked about today is really
going to help the community offinance and accounting
professionals and leaders thatare out there. Thank you so much
for joining us today.
Mark McMillion (37:07):
Well, thank you, Stephen. I love what you're
doing the fire. I love theniche. You're carved out with
finance leaders. I think it'soverlooked. I think people look
at finance too much as beancounters when they're people.
And they're part of teams. Ithink you're doing some great
work. Great service to thecommunity. Thank you for having
me.
Stephen McLain (37:24):
All right, thank you. Now that was amazing. I had
a great time interviewing markfor the podcast. He has a real
passion for helping others andbelieves how important learning
and applying leadership is inevery organization. Also, his
insights on conflict managementare so crucial, because we all
have to deal with adversity,stress and conflict continually.
(37:49):
I hope you enjoy the financeleader podcast, I am focused on
helping this community becomemore confident finance leaders
capable of transformingorganizations. You can find this
episode wherever you listen topodcasts. If this episode helped
you today, please share with acolleague and leave a quick
review. And until next time, youcould check out more resources
(38:11):
at finance leader academy.comand sign up for my weekly
updates. Don't miss an episodeof the podcast. And now go lead
your team. And I'll see you nexttime. Thank you
This week I am sharing my interview with
speaker and author MarkMcMillion of McMillion
leadership associates. Markconducts training and speaks to
corporate teams and otherorganizations. We talked about
leadership, how to planeffective team meetings,
communication, and conflictmanagement. Please enjoy the
(00:27):
episode. Welcome to the financeleader podcast where leadership
is bigger than the numbers. I amyour host, Stephen McLean. This
is the podcast for developingleaders in finance and
accounting. Please considerfollowing me on Twitter,
Facebook, Instagram andLinkedIn. My usernames and the
links are in this episode's shownotes. Thank you. This is
(00:49):
episode number 117. And I aminterviewing army retired
Lieutenant Colonel MarkMcMillion. Mark is a seasoned
leader with over 25 years ofleadership experience, who is a
graduate of the United StatesMilitary Academy at West Point.
He was invited back later in hiscareer to teach at West Point.
(01:09):
As a veteran leader. He'slearned and practiced the soft
skills of leadership. Mark isthe principal of McMillion
leadership associates. And Hehas authored several books.
Please enjoy this incrediblediscussion in I'm sure you will
leave with a few insights youcan apply today. Welcome to the
finance leader podcast, I have aspecial guest and longtime
(01:32):
friend and colleague joining metoday, US Army retired
Lieutenant Colonel MarkMcMillion. After retirement from
the army, Mark founded McMillionleadership associates where he
gets to live out his passion ofteaching and inspiring others on
leadership, building trust,workplace culture, and many
other critical topics. Welcomemark to the finance leader
(01:55):
podcast. And please tell us alittle bit more about you. Hey,
Steve,
Mark McMillion (02:00):
great to be here. Great to see you. It's
been a while since we've seeneach other face to face. But I'm
really excited to be with you.
And I'm a big fan of the financeleader podcast. I love what
you're doing. About me, I know Igrew up in a small town, West
Virginia went through highschool, I was a big fish in a
little pond. Then I went to WestPoint, and found out that I was
not nearly as big of fish as Ithought I was. And I so I had to
(02:23):
sprint hard to keep up with thepack. And from there, I went
into the Army spent 22 years inactive duty as a field artillery
officer, loved it greatassignments, so many different
assignments, so many differentplaces. And then retired. And of
course, we served together mylast tour of duty with NATO in
Norway, which was magnificentcountry, magnificent Assam I
(02:46):
loved the work. But then Iwanted to come home to West
Virginia, and I wanted to comehome, I wanted to help West
Virginia as a state to getbetter. And I found out that
that's my mission, my calling inlife is to help others get
better. I'm not always going tobe I'm not going to be the guy
in the spotlight, I'm going tobe the guy helping others Excel
(03:07):
and do really well. And that'swhat I do now is I help
companies polish theirleadership skills and abilities
so they can execute better. Ihelp companies nonprofits, and I
do some individual coaching aswell. But that is where I
brought my life over a fewdecades. We don't need say how
(03:27):
many, but to help people getbetter. And that's what I tried
to do. Yeah,
Stephen McLain (03:34):
that's awesome.
Hey, I really enjoyed our timein Norway, you came in about the
year and a half or two yearsafter I showed up there one of
the things I wanted to ask youtoday, you have obviously served
in the Army just like I did. Butwhat are those some of those key
lessons that you learned fromyour army career?
Mark McMillion (03:54):
There are so many, I brought so many things
out of the army that helped methat I see sometimes lacking in
civilian companies. But I triedto help them. Three, three key
things that really come out forme are communication. The idea
is you really have to share withpeople what you want from them
share those expectations, setstandards and boundaries for
(04:17):
people. That was the firstthing. The second thing is
teamwork. And I've always lovedteams, I've always been part of
a team and I played football andbasketball growing up and in the
army, I think is the greatestteam of all. But that idea of a
group of people working togethertowards a common purpose. A
(04:37):
common goal is so powerful andquite frankly, that's one of my
biggest struggles since I leftthe Army as a solopreneur is is
that lack of team or what I dolove is I've been able to
integrate myself with some of mycustomers and clients as part of
their team. And the third pieceis really the commander's
intent, which is an extension ofcommunication. And that
(05:02):
Commander's Intent is sopowerful for a leader to
communicate with his or herpeople to let them know where
they're going. And if they do ifthe leader does that really
well, I know in the army, we saycommander's intent. And
sometimes in the civilian worldcommander has a low, negative
(05:24):
connotation to have imperious orwhatnot. But that's not what is
the leaders intent. And I thinkthat is a critical thing that
those are the three things thatI've really brought to bear and
help share with people in mywork with companies.
Stephen McLain (05:38):
No, I think that's a great list. One of the
things I think you really hit onwas that commander's intent or
leaders intent, one of thethings that I have noticed
working with corporate financeand accounting teams, is that
the lack of clarity on what theleader wants, if we were to just
nail down that leaders intent,we probably could avoid a lot of
(06:02):
the micromanagement, and alsothe lack of direction. But if
you really nail down thatCommander's Intent, or leaders
intent, to really, that leadertalks about what they really
want to accomplish either aproject or a task, then that
team could go ahead andaccomplish that task, knowing
what the final outcome issupposed to be, and not having
(06:25):
to always come back and askpermission, as they go ahead and
start accomplishing that task.
So I think that's a great, greatpart to include. As part of what
you learn in your army career,
Mark McMillion (06:37):
Steve, you used a couple of words that I really
love clarity, leaders have toachieve clarity in their
communication. And that leadersintent is the second part of
what you talked about how itempowers people, to get the
mission done, to do what theyneed to do to be successful in
(06:59):
that company. And that's exactlywhat the lesion is a great word,
you really, you really hit thenail on the head right there.
Stephen McLain (07:05):
We could probably talk the entire episode
about this. So but I do have acouple of more questions for
you. You did talk a little bitabout your transition to
civilian life after the armyonce you retired. But what are
some of the challenges that youhad to overcome?
Mark McMillion (07:22):
They've been mountains, it felt like
mountains, maybe they weren't,but it felt like mountains. One
of the things was was being asolopreneur that that that one
man band, and learning to do allthe stuff. I've never taken a
business class. No, myundergraduates in silver
engineering, I have a master'sdegree and some called cognitive
systems engineer, but nobusiness No, no marketing, no
(07:45):
accounting. No, say none ofthat's. So all that is, is stuff
that I had to delve into, andlearn the school of hard knocks
really, and quite, quitefrankly, I stumbled sometime,
but you learn failure is thatgreat opportunity to learn. And
I learned that. But the biggestthing was that as as I mentioned
(08:06):
earlier, was that lack ofcamaraderie of being that team
of having my team, my peoplearound me. And I'm very
fortunate, I have a greatfamily, I have four kids, and
they were all at home when Iretire. So I've always had my
own little tribe, so to speak,and my own family, but it's not
the same thing when you're outthere in the business world. And
(08:27):
I really, really missed that.
But that was the biggestchallenge. And then
understanding some of thedifferences in civilian culture
as a veteran, you know, fouryears at West one, which is the
military academy, 20 years andactive duty. My entire adult
life was deeply steeped inmilitary culture, and learning
that sometimes peoplecommunicate a little differently
(08:47):
in civilian world, learning thatpeople don't have that where
ranks on their shoulder or theircollar like like you do in the
army, and understanding that howcivilian companies work. Those
are the biggest challenges thatI've struggled with.
Stephen McLain (09:04):
No, that's great. Thank you for sharing
that. And of course, you know,on the finance leader podcast, a
passion of mine, and I know apassion of yours, is talking
about leadership. So one of thethings I wanted to ask you today
is why is learning leadershipimportant? Or why would learning
leadership be important to a newa want to be Team Manager,
(09:25):
particularly in finance andaccounting, where we normally
would focus on becoming atechnical expert and not
necessarily on our leadershipability, but please tell us what
you think about about learningleadership and why that's
important to a team manager outthere.
Mark McMillion (09:42):
Great question.
technical expertise is alwaysimportant, no matter what field
you're in, so I don't ever wantto downplay that. Too many
times, leadership, people talkabout leadership as if it's some
magic potion. But if you don'thave an underlying technical
expertise, you're too aim isgoing to understand that you
lack that technical competence.
(10:03):
So I don't want to downplay thatwhatsoever. But we'll take that
as a given. But the end of theday, companies, nonprofits,
they're groups of people workingin concert working together to
get things done, whether you'rean accountant, whether you're a
CFO, whether you're theComptroller, you've have to work
through other people. And that'swhat leadership enables you,
(10:25):
those are the leadership skills.
That can mean that clarity ofcommunication we talked about
earlier, the idea that when youcommunicate with some, you
appreciate their emotionalstate, you appreciate your
emotional state, to enable youto influence them positively.
And to get things done.
Unfortunately, what happens iswhen you enter that, when you
(10:50):
enter that company, that thatentry level, and that we're
technical competence iseverything. As you move up the
corporate ladder, you have tolearn as people skills. And if
you don't start learning them asyou go, you're going to run
yourself up to a cliff. Well,not Yeah, Cliff, but you're at
the bottom of the cliff. Andyou've got to figure out how to
(11:10):
get to the leadership top thatcliff. And that's a steep steep
climb. But if you do it as yougo, you're going to set yourself
up for success in the future.
Stephen McLain (11:21):
No, that's great answer. What the the other
follow on that, to that I thinkyou answered it started, the
answer was that one of thosefuture impacts on leading
learners leading leadership nowcan help with your career in the
future?
Mark McMillion (11:36):
Yeah, exactly.
And what you're gonna do, andremember, leadership's about
building relationships, fruitfulrelationships, relationships
that go above and beyond, Hey,Bob is see at the watercooler
every morning at the coffeemachine, where when you develop
those relationships, those arethe things that help you elevate
your game, help you elevateother people's games, and you
(11:59):
help other people get better.
And they're gonna appreciatethat as you go.
Stephen McLain (12:07):
You'll absolutely you also talked about
the difference between asuccessful leader and not? So
what do you think is adifference between being a
successful leader and anunsuccessful one? And then what
kind of advice would you give tothat new team manager out there
to start to achieve that longterm success? And I'm
particularly interested in whatkind of tools you could give to
(12:29):
a new manager? And then whereshould they focus when they
probably most of these managersdon't have enough time? To
really, to deal with all thetasks that they have to deal
with? How can they what kind oftools out there?
Mark McMillion (12:44):
I get asked that question a good bit by by
people, potential customers,other people just interested in
leadership. The things that Iemphasize, especially for young
leaders is time management, youhave to lead yourself before you
can lead others. And thatability to focus to achieve
(13:06):
clarity in yourself is criticalin order for you to achieve
clarity with others, and thatcommunication, good
communication. So many times Isee leaders stumble, because
they don't communicate meant oneof the two key giveaways that I
hear when I talk to clients.
Well, he should have known that.
(13:27):
Or the leader will say, well,everybody knows that. Typically
when the context was when one oftheir employees makes a mistake.
And when I hear those twophrases, those are red flags for
me, where that leader is notdoing a good job of
communicating. They're assumingsomeone knows a standard,
someone has something in theirexperience. We're not all the
same. And that difference inbackgrounds and experience.
(13:52):
That's what makes us stronger.
When a leader communicatesreally well. And by the way,
let's remember communication isnot always about transmitting.
It's also about receiving a goodlistening is a nother key
leadership skill that youdevelop, wherever you are,
whatever level you are, whereyou learn to listen to people
hear what they're saying, andnot just think about what you
(14:14):
want to say next. And I know I
Stephen McLain (14:20):
definitely think all of us are a little guilty of
that one. I had mentioned, as Iintroduce you to into the
podcast, and you also talkedabout some of your clients, but
companies reach out to you togive internal trainings to
speak. To give assessments. Youare asked to teach about
leadership and team culture,trust and many other critical
(14:42):
topics on developing effectiveteams in your assessments. What
do you consistently see on whyteams are not effective and what
are often the first actions thatleaders need to do to correct
that issue?
Mark McMillion (14:56):
I don't mean to beat a bit a dead horse but
community occationcommunication, communication, it
all starts with communication.
That's the first thing I talkabout. When I create a program
of instruction for a company, italways starts with communication
within that within that, though,is also the necessity to set
clear priorities. When leadersdon't set priorities, I use a
(15:19):
visual, I have a slide that Ilike to throw up, and it's got a
picture. The first picture is astagecoach with six horses just
gallop. And you can see they'rejust flying or everybody's
moving in the right direction.
That's a team with good clearpriority set by the leader. The
second picture is a wagon wreckwith horses, and they're all
(15:42):
tangled mass. That's, that'swhat a lot of teams look like
when leaders don't set thepriorities. Because you know,
this person pulls this way thisperson pulls that way. And even
if it doesn't result in a wreck,the idea is that when you have
members of your team pulling inslightly different directions,
you may still go forward. Butyou're not gonna go forward at
full speed as you can wheneverybody is on that same sheet
(16:06):
of music, and they all havethose clear cut priorities. So
prioritization, I think is areally underrated leadership
skill that many people overlook.
Stephen McLain (16:16):
Yeah, so what's a great tool in order to get
everybody on that same sheet ofmusic or that same priority?
What's a great tool that leadersout there can do or use?
Mark McMillion (16:25):
Well, I know as a finance guy, finance, people
are very attentive to thenumbers to KPIs yet leading
indicators, lagging indicators,and whatnot. Those are helpful
for the leader. And honestly,sometimes leaders don't
understand the numbers as wellas they ought to. So while
you're maybe a finance leader,you may be talking to the CEO or
(16:47):
the business owner about things.
Those are the things where youcan help that person understand
what's driving what a leader hasto understand if the leader
isn't asking the question. Andthis is kind of part of what I
call leading up. Sometimesleaders are not asking the right
questions. And that's where whenyou see things very clearly, you
can help them focus themselves.
(17:12):
By leading up asking questions,you don't tell your boss what to
do, of course, right, thatdoesn't work. But what you can
do is ask questions, and helplead their thinking to the to
what's important. And prioritiesare, what are should be what
drives your numbers to makethings happen.
Stephen McLain (17:30):
Nope, completely agree. I like that. The other
thing I wanted to ask you about,you have several books that
you've written and are inpublication, one of my favorites
that I've gotten in read, it'sabout conducting effective team
meetings. This is a particularlysensitive topic that I see all
(17:50):
the time I see it posted onLinkedIn, and other social
media, about why can't we havemore effective team meetings. So
tell us a little bit about thatbook and some of the key points
and where an organization canhave an effective team meeting?
Because I think it leads back tocommunication and clarity that
(18:10):
you had talked about earlier.
Mark McMillion (18:12):
It really does.
It really does. In fact, I wrotethat book out of frustration,
because I sat through, as I liketo say, 1000s of meetings. I'm
not sure that how much of anexaggeration that is over time.
And what I saw was, I thoughtmaybe that was an Army thing.
And then I started going to somebusiness meetings. I see. It's
everywhere. It we had thepandemic of bad meetings before
(18:36):
we had COVID. But the badmeetings, those are leadership
problem. I I'm glad you gave mea heads up and I brought that
with me. But that communication,it it takes discipline, Jocko
willing says, discipline setsyou free. And what he is talking
about, and I really love hiswork, is the idea that you set
(18:59):
those clear boundaries, and youstick to them. So everybody
says, Well, you know, to haveyeah, having a good agenda.
Well, yeah, of course, you haveto have a good agenda. But in
the book, I talk about having apre meeting instructions. And
that's where you tell people,hey, when you get here, this is
what we're going to talk about.
We're not going to sit aroundthe table waiting for you to
(19:21):
read up and do your homework.
Before we discuss it. That'swaste everybody's time. So
here's what I want you to do toprepare for them. I want you to
do your homework before we cometogether. So we're not figuring
things out and catching up witheverybody where we show up.
We're well versed in the topicand ready to go. The second
piece that see people come upshort in meetings, is what I
(19:45):
call pinning the Rose who hasresponsibility for what so we
talk about an issue we thrash itout, we look at the different
sides. And then at some pointyou got to look down the table
say, Lisa, I need you to takethe lead on this You have this,
you take this. And then I guessthe set the column as well like
Parts A and B, but the nextstep, and then the way ahead,
(20:07):
and that way head combined, kindof ties back to what we talked
about earlier with leadersintent. You know, this is where
we're going, this is thedestination. And that's for this
project for the company, for thecrisis does your, whatever
you're doing, the leader has tofigure out, here's where we're
going. The next step is the verynext thing we're going to do. So
(20:31):
as you finish your meeting, yougo through the topics, the task
says, Hey, Bob, you have this,Lisa, you have that, Joan, you
get this. So everybody has arose pin, and we know exactly
who's responsible for thosetasks, then we say, here's the
next step, it may be anothermeeting in a day while they go
work on those things. It may bemaybe waiting for someone to get
(20:55):
something else done to triggerthe next action. But it's a very
concrete step, you can't do outall the steps. That's not
reasonable. But you can get thatnext step. You can iron that out
and let everybody know,everybody's on the same sheet of
music. And then you have toweigh in and say, remember,
folks, this is where we'regoing. We want to be we want to
(21:16):
prepare to deliver product intime for the Christmas shopping
season. So we need to have theprototypes, all that stuff, user
testing all that completed aboutone November, so we're ready to
mass production, or whatever thetimeline might be.
Stephen McLain (21:32):
Yep, no, I like that. I think one of the other
parts of conducting a meeting isdecide on a meeting versus just
an email, I see that a lot onagain on posted on social media
is like, Hey, I just sat througha meeting where we probably
could have just done it, youknow, a phone call or an email.
(21:54):
I was. So what's the so what'sthe real trigger? To have a
meeting, we've gathered peopleaway from their day, to set
aside and discuss somethingversus just putting something in
an email and maybe a quickdiscussion or a phone call?
What's that? What's thattrigger? That we we grab people
(22:15):
out of their day to beat?
Mark McMillion (22:18):
That's a great question. And that's addressed
in the book as well. But theidea, why do we need a meeting?
Somebody says we need to have ameeting. Okay, well, let's let's
stop and think about that andsay, Well, why do we need to
have a meeting? Are we justsharing information, then that's
not a meeting, a meeting shouldbe you come together, and you
(22:39):
exchange information exchange,you should be duking it out a
little bit, there should be alittle bit of friction and
conflict, you know, argumentabout what's the best idea, hey,
what are the costs, if we do itthis way? What's the what's the
benefit if we do it that way,and that exchange of
information, that's for meeting.
Now, I'll also tell you the oneexception to that there are
(22:59):
times when a leader needs totalk to everybody. And it's,
it's not necessarily thatinterchange. But you know,
that's like a town hall meetingand the idea when when something
is happening, or a big event, ormaybe it's the holiday break,
the leader just wants to talk toeverybody all at once. But
generally speaking, we'retalking about smaller project
style level meetings. The ideais, do we need people to bring
(23:23):
things if not, let's just put itin an email. Let's distribute it
out there. And I know peoplesometimes suffer from email
fatigue. But when you make thispractice, when you set this
standard in your organization,when you bring the discipline to
bear, people will appreciatethat. And people will respect
(23:45):
that. And they know that you'renot sending emails out willy
nilly, and you're not CC andeverybody just because, yeah,
that question is, is thereinteraction required? If there's
not interaction required, thenyou probably don't
Stephen McLain (23:58):
need a meeting.
Right? Exactly. And I, and Imentioned the word email, you
know, a lot of companies now areusing other technology, you
know, like, Microsoft Teams, or,or some kind of other type of
technology instead of just anemail, but, but it's anything
that can capture the informationthat you need to share instead
of gathering everybody togetherout of their day. There's one
(24:20):
other issue with regarding themeetings and that's, I've often
got called to meetings when wejust want to get aligned. And I
think that's a habit of somepeople that they just want to
meet face to face and getaligned on a topic. And they'll
usually throw a 30 minutemeeting, grab people to just
kind of like, talk go over atopic. But the problem with that
(24:45):
is that when you start to getinto that habit of wanting to
just have a meeting to getaligned, you start to see your
calendar filled up with a lot ofthese types of meetings. So what
what's a good way to avoidYou're constantly filling up
your calendar with these 30minute alignment meetings.
Because alignment
Mark McMillion (25:05):
is so critically important. And that's that's
what makes priorities matter isthat's what priorities is they
help you get aligned. Somebodyis hand holding, you know, where
a leader is, thinks everything'sgoing wrong. When you work for
someone like that, that's whereyou have to be a little more
aggressive and push informationto them. But just have just
(25:30):
thrown in a 30 minute meeting, alittle catch up or whatnot, is
not, I don't think that'suseful, and it's not necessary.
What is important is to have inProgress Review set, and to
identify those milestones inthe, in the course of a project
or a plan of what you're doing.
The idea that, hey, we're goingto we're going to meet this, but
(25:53):
it can't be all the time, itshould be designated and planned
out. And really, barring somemajor change, you know, some
change in the environment, orthe operating systems or
whatever you're working in, youshouldn't need that when you've
set those clear priorities. Anda leader can do that, instead of
calling for that meeting. Justto touch base with your people,
(26:15):
one on one could be a phonecall, if you're if you're not,
if you're remote or notphysically together, faced, I'm
a big Africa face to face. Butthose are also opportunities for
that leader to, to touch basewith you to build those
individual relationships withtheir people. But just call them
people together to make theleader feel good. That's a bad
(26:36):
move. That's a bad move. And inlieu of that, is a leader can go
and visit individuals.
Stephen McLain (26:45):
You know, completely I don't know how I
like that. No, I like that.
That's a great answer. I thinkwe need to have fewer of these
alignment, on particularly smallissues, I think it goes back to
leaders intent. And if you havethe big picture aligned, I think
you can get the other smallerissues aligned a little bit
better. So yes, yes. So thankyou for taking us through, I
(27:09):
want us all out there to have alittle bit more effective team
meetings, because it's all aboutpreserving our time and focus.
And so we focus more time oncreating value, leading our
teams, instead of just going toanother meeting where we could,
you know, easily haveaccomplished the same thing and
an email or a quick phone calldiscussion. So I like that. One
(27:32):
of the other things that Iwanted to talk with you today is
that you and I have apartnership through finance
leader Academy, where you offeran on demand self paced course
that can help people deal withconflict management, and
particularly for public facingemployees. Now, I believe this
(27:52):
is a key leadership issue. Andthis is why I wanted to host it
on finance leader Academy. Thistraining was designed and
recorded during the COVIDpandemic when you're all wearing
masks. But I think that this isstill relevant today. There's
still a lot of tension, and alot of issues facing our public
(28:13):
facing employees. And and that'swhy I think it's so important. I
think that those employees whohave to face the public on a
daily basis, have to deal with apublic that's tense with it's
dealing with still dealing withthe after effects of the
pandemic, or even dealing witheconomic issues, like loss of
(28:33):
job or even inflation that we'redealing with right now. So can
you please just take me throughthe course of why you felt that
this course needed to be offeredthat I remember the reason going
back why this was so importantto you that you wanted to share
this type of training?
Mark McMillion (28:57):
Yeah, yeah. One, I am so glad that we partnered
together on that. I love that wewere able to do that. And I
appreciate your help, becauseyou brought some stuff to the
table that I could not get doneon my own. So huge. Thank you
for that. So yes, sir. And COVIDMy daughter was working in a
grocery store. She was afrontline employee. And she was
(29:19):
given no training, no guidancebecause no one knew and no one
was dealing with the problemsand stresses. But I'm sure you
remember where you were. Thereare people mask no masks, why
aren't you wearing a mask? Whyare you wearing that stupid mask
and just emotions? Sadly, oursociety just keeps escalating
(29:39):
going up in stress. It seemslike and you know, so a lot of
talk this year about inflationhas been layoffs, there's hiring
there's the Fed rate mortgagerates going up. The stress is
not going down in the worldaround us. So I think it's
imperative the leaders learn theconflict management skills that
we talk About in that course, alot of it comes down to emotion
(30:04):
to applied emotionalintelligence. And there's a lot
of models of emotionalintelligence out there. But I
simplify, I am very much on theside of pragmatism, I want to
know what works. I like theory,I love talking about theory. But
what works out there? First ofall, is you got to understand
(30:24):
yourself, you have to understandyour own emotions. Why am I
angry? Why am I irritable? Andwhen you start doing that, and I
give some, some ideas and sometechniques to help, check in
with yourself about where youare. And just acknowledging
those emotions and bringing themto the front of the brain and
said deep down inside that, theycall it the amygdala, the
(30:44):
reptile brain. But you bringthose that let you deal with
them, and you can mitigate andcompensate for them. You know, I
had a bad morning. My alarmdidn't go off, I slept late. The
dog got as leave and run the dogdown, bring him. So I'm kind of
hurry, Scurry. And I'm at work.
Like, if I just stop in aparking lot outside the office
(31:05):
and say, All right, all right.
Crappy morning. We don't sharethis with everybody else. And
just acknowledging that thatsets me up for success going in.
Because we've all we've allworked with people when they
have a bad day, they thinkeverybody should have a bad day.
No one likes that. No one likesthat. The second piece is
(31:26):
understanding when other peopleare having a bad day. And
realizing you may be all happy,happy, happy. But they're having
a bad day. You come in at thislevel, and they're down here.
There's some conflict there. Howdo you navigate that? And that's
the essence of that book, is howdo you recognize that and other
people, and then how younavigate that? What are some
(31:48):
things you look at some things Italk about our tone of voice,
some of the things I talk aboutour body language, and not
talking about micro expressions.
And if you saw a TV show a fewyears ago lie to me, which was
very entertaining. But it was aTV show. But I'm talking about
some very obvious things you canlook at and understand and
evaluate where people are. Andthat changes how you may
(32:10):
approach them in the moment. Andthat's what that whole course is
about. And we tried to build it,we broke it down into small
episodes. And we tried to makeit so it was easy to digest
right on your cell phone. Andthat's where we are with
Stephen McLain (32:25):
that. Yep, absolutely. So I know you're
originally designed the coursefor those, again, for those
public facing employees. But Ibelieve that the same principles
can be applied within ourcorporate teams, our teams that
have to deal with, you know, thestressors, of everyday work, and
dealing with each other andeverything, I think those same
(32:47):
principles that you cover in thecourse, can also help with
everyday teams and doing thework they're trying to get done.
Absolutely.
Mark McMillion (32:56):
In many times customer service is focused on
the public facing, but thereality is, in any company, you
have customers within yourcompany, whether you know
marketing has to talk tooperations was estopped, to
shipping, all those people arehave to work together. And
there's conflicts in everlean.
Why did they do that? What werethey thinking? So there's the
(33:16):
you get to the root cause ofthat, of course, you want to
learn and that almost alwayscomes back to communication. But
you also have to deal with it ina moment, when the guy comes and
says, I just got this, this isridiculous, I can't believe
let's deal with that in amoment. And those skills are so
critical. And it turns from aconfrontation, where you're
(33:39):
butting heads to you, there areways you can signal to someone,
hey, I'm not here to fight, I'mhere to get to a solution. And
it's amazing how the otherperson could transform. And
they're way up here to justfabricate. And once they see
that you're not ready to fight,you're ready to work. They can
(34:00):
come down so quickly, soquickly. And that's what
conflict management is reallyabout getting things done.
Stephen McLain (34:12):
I completely agree. I think this is this
topic of this type of trainingis really lacking out there. So
I think this could really help alot of our leaders, especially
our first time leaders and andfirst time managers out there
and this is probably a skillthat as you rise the corporate
ladder, you go from manager,Senior Manager to director to VP
(34:36):
that you'll be able to use thosesame skills and understanding
emotional intelligence and howthat applies. To be able to
manage the conflict that'swithin your own team. I saw I
think this is a great course. Wehave it on finance leader
Academy and like you said it'seasily digestible on the phone.
But thank you Mark for puttingthat putting that course
(34:57):
together and I think it's wouldbe a really good value add for
Are any of the teams that areout there, whether you're public
facing or not. So I reallyappreciate that.
Mark McMillion (35:06):
Conflict is everywhere around us. And it
seems like sometimes you can'teven go to the grocery store and
not eat. There's there's thatrisk of encounter. And it
doesn't have to always spiralup, it can level out and be
dealt with in time and place.
Yep,
Stephen McLain (35:24):
yep, completely agree. Mark, thank you so much
for joining me on the financeleader podcast, hey, please tell
us where we can find yourresources and where, where a
company could reach out to youif they wanted to bring you on
to, to conduct a conference ortraining or an assessment?
Mark McMillion (35:43):
Sure, thank you.
My website Macmillianleadership.com as MC million
like a million dollars, millionleadership.com is the best
place. And there's a Contactpage there along with reviews
about training speaking, as wellas some of the writing I do. The
books I you know, there's anaccompanying book on de
escalation, conflict managementthat's available on Amazon, all
(36:06):
my, my writing is available onAmazon, here's the meeting book
as well. And on Amazon, it'savailable in Kindle format, or
order hard copies like I havethere. That's the best place I'm
also on LinkedIn. I'm very, I'man avid LinkedIn user, I love
the platform. And then I writeit's behind a paywall. But
medium.com is I do a lot ofessays and shorter writings,
(36:30):
very much to the point. Butthere's a lot of leadership
stuff on there that I put out aswell. So those are the three
ways the website, my website,LinkedIn, and medium.com are the
three best ways to find some
Stephen McLain (36:46):
Mark, thank you.
Again, I'll make sure to add thelink to your website into the
episode show notes. Thank you,Mark. I appreciate all of your
systems and your input today.
And I really think what youtalked about today is really
going to help the community offinance and accounting
professionals and leaders thatare out there. Thank you so much
for joining us today.
Mark McMillion (37:07):
Well, thank you, Stephen. I love what you're
doing the fire. I love theniche. You're carved out with
finance leaders. I think it'soverlooked. I think people look
at finance too much as beancounters when they're people.
And they're part of teams. Ithink you're doing some great
work. Great service to thecommunity. Thank you for having
me.
Stephen McLain (37:24):
All right, thank you. Now that was amazing. I had
a great time interviewing markfor the podcast. He has a real
passion for helping others andbelieves how important learning
and applying leadership is inevery organization. Also, his
insights on conflict managementare so crucial, because we all
have to deal with adversity,stress and conflict continually.
(37:49):
I hope you enjoy the financeleader podcast, I am focused on
helping this community becomemore confident finance leaders
capable of transformingorganizations. You can find this
episode wherever you listen topodcasts. If this episode helped
you today, please share with acolleague and leave a quick
review. And until next time, youcould check out more resources
(38:11):
at finance leader academy.comand sign up for my weekly
updates. Don't miss an episodeof the podcast. And now go lead
your team. And I'll see you nexttime. Thank you
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