August 23, 2023 • 25 mins
Join Eveline Oehrlich and Grant Fritchey, Product Advocate at Redgate Software, to discuss product advocacy, collaboration, and leadership.
Grant has worked for more than 30 years in IT as a developer and a DBA. He has built systems from major enterprises to distributed systems to small boutique companies. Grant writes articles on various data-related topics for SQL Server Central and SimpleTalk. He is the author of multiple books including, SQL Server Execution Plans and SQL Server Query Performance Tuning. He develops and presents complete structured learning plans to teach Azure, AWS, and other data-related topics to developers and other IS personnel. Grant is a Microsoft Data Platform MVP and an AWS Community Builder.
The Humans of DevOps Podcast is incredibly grateful to be voted one of the Best 25 DevOps Podcasts by Feedspot.
Learn more about getting DevOps certified at devopsinstitute.com
Grant has worked for more than 30 years in IT as a developer and a DBA. He has built systems from major enterprises to distributed systems to small boutique companies. Grant writes articles on various data-related topics for SQL Server Central and SimpleTalk. He is the author of multiple books including, SQL Server Execution Plans and SQL Server Query Performance Tuning. He develops and presents complete structured learning plans to teach Azure, AWS, and other data-related topics to developers and other IS personnel. Grant is a Microsoft Data Platform MVP and an AWS Community Builder.
The Humans of DevOps Podcast is incredibly grateful to be voted one of the Best 25 DevOps Podcasts by Feedspot.
Learn more about getting DevOps certified at devopsinstitute.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:02):
You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing thehumans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas, and learning,or the skil framework.
Grant Fritchey (00:17):
We still focus first on tech. And it's, it's
really hard to get into the ideaof like, okay, yeah, that's
important, right? It's veryimportant. But if you really
want to do this stuff, you'vegot to have communication skills
to
Eveline Oehrlich (00:33):
welcome to humans of DevOps podcast, I'm
evolutionarily Chief ResearchOfficer at DevOps Institute.
Today's episode is titled, froma DBA jerk to a collaborator. We
know, well stay with us, I thinkyou're gonna enjoy that. Because
today we have a very specialguest, Grant Fritchie is with
(00:55):
us. And let me tell you aboutGrant. Before we give him the
open mic to tell us a little bitmore about himself. So grant is
a product advocate advocatesoftware, he has worked for more
than 30 years in it as adeveloper and a DBA. He has
built systems from the majorenterprises to distributed
(01:18):
systems to small boutiquecompanies. So you can see he has
lots of experience, he writesarticles on various data related
topics for SQL Server Central,and simple talk. He is the
author of multiple books,including SQL Server execution
plans, and SQL Server Queryperformance tuning. He develops
(01:39):
and presents complete structuredlearning plans to teach assure
AWS and other data relatedtopics to developers and other
it or is personnel use aMicrosoft data platform MVP, and
the AWS AWS community builder.Welcome grant to our podcast
today.
Grant Fritchey (01:59):
Oh, thanks a lot for having me. I love this
podcast.
Eveline Oehrlich (02:03):
I am glad you are here. You know, I have been
a DBA. Myself. And that really,when I read your, your
introduction, when we found youthat really caught really caught
my eyes, because when I was aDBA, right out of graduate
school, at a very large techcompany, I felt very much the
(02:26):
same. So let me quickly sharewhat Grant had said about
himself. He said, I proudly weara nickname, The scary DBA. I got
that in part because people justfind me generally intimidating.
And in brackets, not sure why.But also, in part because I was
(02:47):
a jerk. I was one of those DBAsthat developers rightly complain
about. So that's the first partof what caught my eyes. And then
he said, and he of course, he'shere now, but I'm quoting now,
I'm all about teamscollaboration, and focusing on
that fact that everyone withinthe organization really does
(03:08):
have common goals. So quite aturnaround, right? So give us a
little bit more insight on thosetwo statements grant.
Grant Fritchey (03:20):
thing? Well, me I'm I am a slow learner, I
freely admit it. But back in theday, when they you know, there's
a joke, everyone cracks, youknow, what's a DBAs? Favorite
word? No. You know, I reallykind of live that life. I really
did. And it hurt me. I mean, itactually made it more difficult
(03:43):
for me to to do things wellwithin the organization I was
working for. And I learned whileI was there, that, you know, you
get better results if you workwith the people that you need to
work with. And the fact is, isthat we actually do all need to
work together. And it you know,it was a hard lesson, but it's
(04:03):
one I picked up on and ran with,to the point now where I just I
focus first on collaboration, Iwould much rather I would much
rather talk to people and andfigure out things that are going
to make us both happy and youknow, make it possible for us
all to achieve the goals that weneed to achieve rather than, you
(04:24):
know, I'm right, you're wrongkind of approaches. And it's,
you know, it's turned thingsaround for me in a big, big way.
I mean, I've been much moresuccessful since I adopted that.
Eveline Oehrlich (04:36):
So as a product advocate, that is of
course very different from a DBAbeing a DBA in an IT
organization. Tell us a littlebit about what does a product
advocate? Do? What does I usedto be a an evangelist, it sounds
a little bit like that. But tellus a little bit about what does
(04:58):
the product advocate actuallydo?
Grant Fritchey (05:00):
You kind of nailed it. My initial title was
evangelist, ah, absolutely, theyjust slightly changed it. It's
the idea is the same Redgatesoftware in this instance, makes
database development tools anddatabase management tools, and
cross platform, a whole bunch ofstuff. But the key here is that
(05:21):
as an advocate, I don't want tosimply teach you Red Gate tools,
what I want to teach you is whyyou may want to go to Red Gate
for your tools, because it'smore important you understand
what it is that we're doing, howwe do things, the way the
underlying database systemswork, and the way you know the
(05:42):
interactions occur and theautomation methodologies that
you have available. All of thatstuff is more important than
simply showing you how to useRedgate tools. And so my goal
is, and my remit from thecompany is to do a lot of
teaching on general topics, youknow, DevOps as a concept, you
(06:03):
know, database performancetuning as a concept, you know,
stuff like this, as opposed tostraight up, you know, here's
how you use our tools. Funnyenough, after I teach that, then
I go, Oh, by the way, our toolsmake all of that easier. And so
here's ways that can improve.You know, what you do through
the use of our tools, but wefocus first on education.
Eveline Oehrlich (06:26):
Love that. I do like the advocate title
better than evangelist. I, let'slike go in there. Because we'll
have that conversation over acup of coffee or an adult
beverage when you come visit me.All right, so great. So we all
think we know what collaborationis. And, you know, if I go out
(06:48):
here, and I asked some of ourfolks, hey, what do you think
about collaboration? They say,Oh, yeah, it's very important.
But what does effectivecollaboration actually look
like? What would you say?
Grant Fritchey (07:01):
Well, honestly, that's hard. Collaboration is
not difficult. It's easy to say,you know, oh, well, we're all
going to work together, we'll,you know, we'll sing Kumbaya,
we'll have a coffee, you know,and off we go. But in reality,
what's going to happen is that,you know, speaking strictly from
a DBA standpoint, for a second,the development team is going to
(07:22):
walk up and say, Hey, we need saprivileges? Well, your, your
answer is going to be no. Right?But But what your answer needs
to be to be collaborative is tosay, Well, why do you think you
need these? And what is it thatyou're trying to do? And let me
figure out how I can help youdeliver whatever it is that you
(07:43):
need to do, rather than simplysay, No, it's all about
achieving understanding with thepeople that you're working with.
That's why it's hard because it,it's frequently very difficult
to go for understanding,especially when someone walks up
and asks for something that yousimply can't give them. Maybe,
(08:07):
even if you wanted to. So likeessay privileges on production.
So it, you know, I mean, it doesget hard to figure that out. But
but it really is all aboutcommunication and understanding.
That's the driving tocollaboration. And until you're
working first, on yourcommunication, understanding
skills, you're going to have aharder time with your
(08:29):
collaboration skills.
Eveline Oehrlich (08:32):
Now the challenge is, and I remember
that, when, of course, I was,you know, I started out in
support on the HP 3000. Now thatgives away which company I
worked for, I guess. And then ofcourse, I became an ingress an
Oracle DBA. We never had, wenever really had time to
(08:54):
collaborate, it felt like I wasalways in a rush. I had to go do
whatever I needed to do towhatever. We did data warehouses
at the time. So strip the data,blah, blah, blah, right? It
feels like the time thechallenge of being very reactive
makes it very difficult tocollaborate. Would you agree
(09:14):
with that?
Grant Fritchey (09:16):
Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, the more reactive your
situation is, the less you'regoing to be able to collaborate
because collaborations,communication, and communication
takes time. And that's gonnaslow things down a bit. But
that's also why you want to belooking, I mean, we're sitting
here talking on the humans ofDevOps podcast. That's why you
(09:37):
want to be looking at stuff likeautomation as a mechanism to
free up some of your time tofind methodologies that are
going to make it so that you canfocus on the more important
aspects and not simply bereacting to non stop little
bushfires everywhere.
Eveline Oehrlich (09:55):
Yeah, I agree. So we do a Every year, we do a
fairly large project aroundskill building, we call it
upskilling. It, we just actuallyjust finished the report, it's
in draft, and it's with abeautifier, meaning a marketing
person who knows how to make itpretty. But in that research,
(10:20):
it's based on survey data. Andthere we found that
collaboration and cooperation isranked as the biggest skill gap
across a tea. That's the firstpiece of data and all while at
the same time our surveyrespondents voted that
collaboration and cooperation isthe third must the third must
(10:42):
have skill behind diversity andinclusion and problem solving.
So of course, problem solving.Yes, that is a something we do.
I think people go into itbecause we love to solve
problems. But again, one end,it's the biggest skill gap. On
the other end, it is the numberthree must have. Why is it so
(11:07):
difficult? What stands in itsway? We talked a little bit
about toil or right waist at thetime, the challenge? What other
things stand in its way to besuch a difficult or such a big
skill gap today?
Grant Fritchey (11:24):
Well, I think it's, I think it's down to the
way we approach it. A lot of thestuff we do is we focus first on
technology. And we ignore thefact that it's got to be humans
first, right it, you know, howto Donovan Brown put it it's
people, people process productsin that order. Right. So people
(11:44):
first, then your process, andthen your products. And I think
that we tend to reverse that,you know, we're nerds, right? I
mean, I and what do I careabout, I care about really cool
tech, and really cool solutions,and really cool mechanisms, new
code, and all this fun stuff.And we forget about the fact
(12:06):
that it is all about humans, andit's people that we need to
communicate with. And what wedon't do is work on those
skills, those those soft skillsthat allow us to collaborate to
allow us to communicate. And Ithink that that's why it's such
a huge gap. And I also thinkthat's why it's the third most
(12:29):
important thing. But funnyenough, we put it behind what,
you know, not diversity, that'sgreat, but we put it behind
problem solving. What's what'sproblem solving? Well, that's
all about doing the tech. So youknow, we still focus first on
tech. And it's, it's really hardto get into the idea of like,
okay, yeah, that's important,right? It's very important. But
(12:50):
if you really want to do thisstuff, you've got to have
communication skills to
Narrator (12:57):
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our community now.
Eveline Oehrlich (13:42):
You know that? That is, of course, music to my
ears, because when I introducemyself to my family, friends, in
what I do, they roll their eyesand they go, Oh, you code. Like,
I mean, it. That means I codeNo, I don't code. I can code.
(14:03):
But I talk, I collaborate. Iresearch, I do human things. I
have a lot of EQ, I have a lotof passion. I have a lot of
conversations. And sometimesthey're just like, startled,
they don't understand becausethey think that when you are in
it, you are a nerd and you code.Yes, we do that some of us do
(14:26):
that. Most of us have done itand right. That's part of it.
But I think that is a bigmisconception we have and
therefore we stay in that littlein that little cubicle because
there was an additional detailwhen we looked at the training
or the upskilling. Whatorganizations and team members
(14:49):
set in the survey response whatthey were focusing on is
technical skills. Right? Somight it goes exactly to your
point so can you This issomething you know, personal
postal question for me to you.Do you think people can learn
how to collaborate even ifthey're not good collaborators?
Or you are one of them? You? Yousaid you, you said you were a
(15:12):
jerk, obviously, because youwere thinking you were a joke,
but probably you weren't. Youjust had a job. But you learned
how to collaborate. So it'spossible to collaborate, right?
To learn. It's possible.
Grant Fritchey (15:23):
Yeah, I think it really is possible. And I talked
about my scary DBA nickname,because I kept that one. I don't
talk about my other nickname,which was a play on my name. You
know, my name is Grant, and theother nickname was rant. Meaning
I would go off and scream andyell, because people did stupid
stuff. It really is possible tolearn, but you do have to focus
(15:49):
on it. You have to it's one ofthose almost like, acknowledging
that you're an alcoholic. Right?It's the beginning to solving
that problem. Well,acknowledging that, you know,
yeah, I was a jerk, right? Ireally was. That was the
beginning of the solution. And,you know, it's just
understanding that you justcan't be, you can't be mean to
(16:11):
people you kind of have to be,you kind of have to be kind to
really make things work. Well.
Eveline Oehrlich (16:18):
That gets me into the next question. So what
have you found works best tofoster that as yourself as a, as
an individual contributor? Yousaid, be kind, what other things
Tips Tricks, do you findhelpful? To, to know or to test
yourself? Am I a goodcollaborator? Anything? You you
(16:40):
can remember? You did?
Grant Fritchey (16:42):
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love this one? That's a great
question. The one thing Ilearned, learned us again, a
long time ago, is a really hardconversation and a difficult
conversation in that momentwhere like, you need to
influence somebody, you know,and you're trying to
collaborate, use their language,to figure out the way that they
(17:03):
talk, figure out the way thatthey communicate, are they? Are
they more of a tell person ormore of an Ask person? Well, if
they're an Ask person, andyou're a tell person, change the
way you communicate to theirs,you know, ask them questions,
could move them towards whereyou need to move them, and use
their language. So if, if you'rea DBA, go and learn some
(17:27):
development language, understandhow source control works,
understand some of the detailsbehind compiling code, and you
don't even get get the languagethat they use. If you're a
developer, same thing go theother way. Why are DBA so
obsessed with backup? I mean,get, get a little bit of an
understanding of their languageand use that language when you
(17:48):
communicate with them. That's athat's a huge step forward in
terms of getting collaborationgoing. Because if you're if
you're using a more commonlanguage, it's much easier than
to see the other side and findthose places where, oh, hey, I
can help you. Not I'm simplystanding in your way or stopping
(18:09):
you or trying to find a wayaround you, I can help you. And
it makes it much easier to havethat communication and that
conversation.
Eveline Oehrlich (18:18):
What about a leader? Because we all know, but
we all know leader. So yeah,let's leave it at that. But what
can a leader do when he or shesees their challenges within
their team? Or between twoindividuals or whatever? What
What are your thoughts there?
Grant Fritchey (18:38):
Okay, so let's let's break leadership and
management and path. Yes. Andthen and let me try to answer
that question. Because I am awretchedly horrible manager, I
tried moving into that area, andI'm really, really bad at it. So
I'm not going to try to adviseanybody on how you manage
collaboration. But as a leader,you know, whether a team leader,
(19:02):
a technical leader, you know, athought leader, I mean, there's
a lot of leadership you know,there's there's that whole
business possibility versuspersonal responsibility,
personal responsibility, aleader, someone who's looked up
to thought upon as you know, oh,yeah, that's the person who runs
stuff in our organization.That's the first go to person.
(19:22):
Leaders have to set the example.They can't be cracking jokes
about you know, stupiddevelopers or anything like
that. You You've got to besetting the the kind of
communication you expect peopleto do. Second thing you have to
do is bought those moments wherethere's conflict, and where and
(19:44):
when you can rope the peopletogether and get them to, you
know, who communicate with you.Hey, what's the deal? What Why
are we having conflict here? Whyaren't we cooperating and figure
that bit out? Um, I've done itmultiple times from a technical
standpoint, you know, whenpeople are no, no, no, we need
(20:05):
to go left. No, no, no, we needto go right. And you sit them
down and go, Okay, well, hangon, we can't do both. So what is
the right path and work itthrough them on that it's, it
really is still back tocommunication. But as a leader,
your goal is you've got to setyou've got to set the, you know,
the tone that everyone else isgoing to follow.
Eveline Oehrlich (20:28):
I've heard this phrase, casting the shadow.
I think it was during my time atforest or where we did a great
workshop of casting shadows, interms of of leaders. All right.
Excellent. Love that. One morequestion. So this is, of course,
(20:48):
touching on our favorite or sofavorite topic on the pandemic,
right. So we won't be tuckedaway in our home offices
forever. And we were using andgetting back to offices slowly.
Some are not. Some are. Yeah.But my question is, what would
you say has changed in terms ofcollaboration since the
(21:09):
pandemic?
Grant Fritchey (21:11):
That's also a great question. So I've been
working remotely, my, thecompany's headquarters are in
Cambridge, England, and I livein Oklahoma. And so I've been
working remotely for 12 years.And when the pandemic hit, to my
whole thing was well, hey, youknow, Don MacLean, welcome to
(21:32):
the party pal. You know, it'sgreat to have you now in my
boat, where now you're, you nolonger have those hallway
conversations, you no longerhave that fast, fast, effective
face to face communication. Ithink the big thing coming out
of the pandemic, now that we'recoming away from it, I think the
(21:54):
big thing is, is that a lot ofpeople have a better
understanding of the difficultyof remote communication and
remote work. And as we move intothis more hybrid environment, we
all tend to think of, oh, youknow, Peggy's going to be
sitting at home, how do we bringher into this conversation
(22:15):
better? And because they've allexperienced it now, whereas
before, you know, I'm goinglike, hey, please, no one's
listening to me. No one'slistening to me. Now, they all
feel that way meant no onelistened to me when I was
remote. And so I think that Ithink that's roping a lot of
people into a better path.
Eveline Oehrlich (22:35):
That is a great one. Yeah, that makes me
think of I have to find thattonight. That was a great video,
I have to look at it YouTube, itis a funny one where a variety
of folks are in a meeting. Butthey're not in a meeting in the
space. They're like calling infrom different places. It's a
(22:55):
it's a, it's a comedy, 10minutes, laughing about making
jokes about that past of whereyou felt like you. I've been
home office since I would say 20years. And every time I'm in a
meeting, I wanted to saysomething. Nobody listened. And
this is exactly what I feel nowis like I'm part of it. So that
(23:16):
is that is one great outcome, ifI can say that that's an
oxymoron. But one great outcomeof the pandemic, right.
Excellent. Well, Grant, this hasbeen fantastic. I have one more
closing question has nothing todo. Well, maybe it does. What do
you do for fun?
Grant Fritchey (23:33):
Oh, I love radios. I am a amateur radio
operator. And I love playingwith radio tech. And I do all
kinds of crazy stuff with it.From analog work, to digital
work, stuff inside the housestuff outside the house. I'm not
even going to try to bore anyonewith all the details. But I love
(23:53):
my radios and I play with them alot. How
Eveline Oehrlich (23:56):
my colleague at Forrester, my former
colleague at Forrester was or isstill in that he actually put a
tower next to his house. Do youhave a tower?
Grant Fritchey (24:06):
No, not yet. Right now. Got a couple of small
antennas outside. But I've beenlooking at bigger one. For my
wife.
Eveline Oehrlich (24:16):
There we go. I was just going to say the
spousal unit will need toapprove I can understand that.
Well, this has been a greatconversation. Grant, thank you
so much for joining me today onhumans of DevOps podcast.
Grant Fritchey (24:31):
No, thank you. I really appreciate it. Like I
said, this is a great podcast. Ilistened to it.
Eveline Oehrlich (24:35):
Great. Thank you. Humans of DevOps podcast is
produced by DevOps Institute.Our audio production team
includes Julia Pape DanielNewman, Schultz and Brendan
Leahy. Shout out to myteammates. I'm humans of the
Rob's podcast executive producerEvelyn earlyish. If you would
like to join us on a podcastplease contact us at humans of
(24:56):
DevOps podcast at DevOpsinstitute.com. Please No, I did
not misspeak, any of that. I'mEvelyn earlyish. Talk to you
soon.
Narrator (25:08):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of
DevOps podcast. Don't forget tojoin our global community to get
access to even more greatresources like this. Until next
time, remember, you are part ofsomething bigger than yourself.
You belong
You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing thehumans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas, and learning,or the skil framework.
Grant Fritchey (00:17):
We still focus first on tech. And it's, it's
really hard to get into the ideaof like, okay, yeah, that's
important, right? It's veryimportant. But if you really
want to do this stuff, you'vegot to have communication skills
to
Eveline Oehrlich (00:33):
welcome to humans of DevOps podcast, I'm
evolutionarily Chief ResearchOfficer at DevOps Institute.
Today's episode is titled, froma DBA jerk to a collaborator. We
know, well stay with us, I thinkyou're gonna enjoy that. Because
today we have a very specialguest, Grant Fritchie is with
(00:55):
us. And let me tell you aboutGrant. Before we give him the
open mic to tell us a little bitmore about himself. So grant is
a product advocate advocatesoftware, he has worked for more
than 30 years in it as adeveloper and a DBA. He has
built systems from the majorenterprises to distributed
(01:18):
systems to small boutiquecompanies. So you can see he has
lots of experience, he writesarticles on various data related
topics for SQL Server Central,and simple talk. He is the
author of multiple books,including SQL Server execution
plans, and SQL Server Queryperformance tuning. He develops
(01:39):
and presents complete structuredlearning plans to teach assure
AWS and other data relatedtopics to developers and other
it or is personnel use aMicrosoft data platform MVP, and
the AWS AWS community builder.Welcome grant to our podcast
today.
Grant Fritchey (01:59):
Oh, thanks a lot for having me. I love this
podcast.
Eveline Oehrlich (02:03):
I am glad you are here. You know, I have been
a DBA. Myself. And that really,when I read your, your
introduction, when we found youthat really caught really caught
my eyes, because when I was aDBA, right out of graduate
school, at a very large techcompany, I felt very much the
(02:26):
same. So let me quickly sharewhat Grant had said about
himself. He said, I proudly weara nickname, The scary DBA. I got
that in part because people justfind me generally intimidating.
And in brackets, not sure why.But also, in part because I was
(02:47):
a jerk. I was one of those DBAsthat developers rightly complain
about. So that's the first partof what caught my eyes. And then
he said, and he of course, he'shere now, but I'm quoting now,
I'm all about teamscollaboration, and focusing on
that fact that everyone withinthe organization really does
(03:08):
have common goals. So quite aturnaround, right? So give us a
little bit more insight on thosetwo statements grant.
Grant Fritchey (03:20):
thing? Well, me I'm I am a slow learner, I
freely admit it. But back in theday, when they you know, there's
a joke, everyone cracks, youknow, what's a DBAs? Favorite
word? No. You know, I reallykind of live that life. I really
did. And it hurt me. I mean, itactually made it more difficult
(03:43):
for me to to do things wellwithin the organization I was
working for. And I learned whileI was there, that, you know, you
get better results if you workwith the people that you need to
work with. And the fact is, isthat we actually do all need to
work together. And it you know,it was a hard lesson, but it's
(04:03):
one I picked up on and ran with,to the point now where I just I
focus first on collaboration, Iwould much rather I would much
rather talk to people and andfigure out things that are going
to make us both happy and youknow, make it possible for us
all to achieve the goals that weneed to achieve rather than, you
(04:24):
know, I'm right, you're wrongkind of approaches. And it's,
you know, it's turned thingsaround for me in a big, big way.
I mean, I've been much moresuccessful since I adopted that.
Eveline Oehrlich (04:36):
So as a product advocate, that is of
course very different from a DBAbeing a DBA in an IT
organization. Tell us a littlebit about what does a product
advocate? Do? What does I usedto be a an evangelist, it sounds
a little bit like that. But tellus a little bit about what does
(04:58):
the product advocate actuallydo?
Grant Fritchey (05:00):
You kind of nailed it. My initial title was
evangelist, ah, absolutely, theyjust slightly changed it. It's
the idea is the same Redgatesoftware in this instance, makes
database development tools anddatabase management tools, and
cross platform, a whole bunch ofstuff. But the key here is that
(05:21):
as an advocate, I don't want tosimply teach you Red Gate tools,
what I want to teach you is whyyou may want to go to Red Gate
for your tools, because it'smore important you understand
what it is that we're doing, howwe do things, the way the
underlying database systemswork, and the way you know the
(05:42):
interactions occur and theautomation methodologies that
you have available. All of thatstuff is more important than
simply showing you how to useRedgate tools. And so my goal
is, and my remit from thecompany is to do a lot of
teaching on general topics, youknow, DevOps as a concept, you
(06:03):
know, database performancetuning as a concept, you know,
stuff like this, as opposed tostraight up, you know, here's
how you use our tools. Funnyenough, after I teach that, then
I go, Oh, by the way, our toolsmake all of that easier. And so
here's ways that can improve.You know, what you do through
the use of our tools, but wefocus first on education.
Eveline Oehrlich (06:26):
Love that. I do like the advocate title
better than evangelist. I, let'slike go in there. Because we'll
have that conversation over acup of coffee or an adult
beverage when you come visit me.All right, so great. So we all
think we know what collaborationis. And, you know, if I go out
(06:48):
here, and I asked some of ourfolks, hey, what do you think
about collaboration? They say,Oh, yeah, it's very important.
But what does effectivecollaboration actually look
like? What would you say?
Grant Fritchey (07:01):
Well, honestly, that's hard. Collaboration is
not difficult. It's easy to say,you know, oh, well, we're all
going to work together, we'll,you know, we'll sing Kumbaya,
we'll have a coffee, you know,and off we go. But in reality,
what's going to happen is that,you know, speaking strictly from
a DBA standpoint, for a second,the development team is going to
(07:22):
walk up and say, Hey, we need saprivileges? Well, your, your
answer is going to be no. Right?But But what your answer needs
to be to be collaborative is tosay, Well, why do you think you
need these? And what is it thatyou're trying to do? And let me
figure out how I can help youdeliver whatever it is that you
(07:43):
need to do, rather than simplysay, No, it's all about
achieving understanding with thepeople that you're working with.
That's why it's hard because it,it's frequently very difficult
to go for understanding,especially when someone walks up
and asks for something that yousimply can't give them. Maybe,
(08:07):
even if you wanted to. So likeessay privileges on production.
So it, you know, I mean, it doesget hard to figure that out. But
but it really is all aboutcommunication and understanding.
That's the driving tocollaboration. And until you're
working first, on yourcommunication, understanding
skills, you're going to have aharder time with your
(08:29):
collaboration skills.
Eveline Oehrlich (08:32):
Now the challenge is, and I remember
that, when, of course, I was,you know, I started out in
support on the HP 3000. Now thatgives away which company I
worked for, I guess. And then ofcourse, I became an ingress an
Oracle DBA. We never had, wenever really had time to
(08:54):
collaborate, it felt like I wasalways in a rush. I had to go do
whatever I needed to do towhatever. We did data warehouses
at the time. So strip the data,blah, blah, blah, right? It
feels like the time thechallenge of being very reactive
makes it very difficult tocollaborate. Would you agree
(09:14):
with that?
Grant Fritchey (09:16):
Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, the more reactive your
situation is, the less you'regoing to be able to collaborate
because collaborations,communication, and communication
takes time. And that's gonnaslow things down a bit. But
that's also why you want to belooking, I mean, we're sitting
here talking on the humans ofDevOps podcast. That's why you
(09:37):
want to be looking at stuff likeautomation as a mechanism to
free up some of your time tofind methodologies that are
going to make it so that you canfocus on the more important
aspects and not simply bereacting to non stop little
bushfires everywhere.
Eveline Oehrlich (09:55):
Yeah, I agree. So we do a Every year, we do a
fairly large project aroundskill building, we call it
upskilling. It, we just actuallyjust finished the report, it's
in draft, and it's with abeautifier, meaning a marketing
person who knows how to make itpretty. But in that research,
(10:20):
it's based on survey data. Andthere we found that
collaboration and cooperation isranked as the biggest skill gap
across a tea. That's the firstpiece of data and all while at
the same time our surveyrespondents voted that
collaboration and cooperation isthe third must the third must
(10:42):
have skill behind diversity andinclusion and problem solving.
So of course, problem solving.Yes, that is a something we do.
I think people go into itbecause we love to solve
problems. But again, one end,it's the biggest skill gap. On
the other end, it is the numberthree must have. Why is it so
(11:07):
difficult? What stands in itsway? We talked a little bit
about toil or right waist at thetime, the challenge? What other
things stand in its way to besuch a difficult or such a big
skill gap today?
Grant Fritchey (11:24):
Well, I think it's, I think it's down to the
way we approach it. A lot of thestuff we do is we focus first on
technology. And we ignore thefact that it's got to be humans
first, right it, you know, howto Donovan Brown put it it's
people, people process productsin that order. Right. So people
(11:44):
first, then your process, andthen your products. And I think
that we tend to reverse that,you know, we're nerds, right? I
mean, I and what do I careabout, I care about really cool
tech, and really cool solutions,and really cool mechanisms, new
code, and all this fun stuff.And we forget about the fact
(12:06):
that it is all about humans, andit's people that we need to
communicate with. And what wedon't do is work on those
skills, those those soft skillsthat allow us to collaborate to
allow us to communicate. And Ithink that that's why it's such
a huge gap. And I also thinkthat's why it's the third most
(12:29):
important thing. But funnyenough, we put it behind what,
you know, not diversity, that'sgreat, but we put it behind
problem solving. What's what'sproblem solving? Well, that's
all about doing the tech. So youknow, we still focus first on
tech. And it's, it's really hardto get into the idea of like,
okay, yeah, that's important,right? It's very important. But
(12:50):
if you really want to do thisstuff, you've got to have
communication skills to
Narrator (12:57):
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our community now.
Eveline Oehrlich (13:42):
You know that? That is, of course, music to my
ears, because when I introducemyself to my family, friends, in
what I do, they roll their eyesand they go, Oh, you code. Like,
I mean, it. That means I codeNo, I don't code. I can code.
(14:03):
But I talk, I collaborate. Iresearch, I do human things. I
have a lot of EQ, I have a lotof passion. I have a lot of
conversations. And sometimesthey're just like, startled,
they don't understand becausethey think that when you are in
it, you are a nerd and you code.Yes, we do that some of us do
(14:26):
that. Most of us have done itand right. That's part of it.
But I think that is a bigmisconception we have and
therefore we stay in that littlein that little cubicle because
there was an additional detailwhen we looked at the training
or the upskilling. Whatorganizations and team members
(14:49):
set in the survey response whatthey were focusing on is
technical skills. Right? Somight it goes exactly to your
point so can you This issomething you know, personal
postal question for me to you.Do you think people can learn
how to collaborate even ifthey're not good collaborators?
Or you are one of them? You? Yousaid you, you said you were a
(15:12):
jerk, obviously, because youwere thinking you were a joke,
but probably you weren't. Youjust had a job. But you learned
how to collaborate. So it'spossible to collaborate, right?
To learn. It's possible.
Grant Fritchey (15:23):
Yeah, I think it really is possible. And I talked
about my scary DBA nickname,because I kept that one. I don't
talk about my other nickname,which was a play on my name. You
know, my name is Grant, and theother nickname was rant. Meaning
I would go off and scream andyell, because people did stupid
stuff. It really is possible tolearn, but you do have to focus
(15:49):
on it. You have to it's one ofthose almost like, acknowledging
that you're an alcoholic. Right?It's the beginning to solving
that problem. Well,acknowledging that, you know,
yeah, I was a jerk, right? Ireally was. That was the
beginning of the solution. And,you know, it's just
understanding that you justcan't be, you can't be mean to
(16:11):
people you kind of have to be,you kind of have to be kind to
really make things work. Well.
Eveline Oehrlich (16:18):
That gets me into the next question. So what
have you found works best tofoster that as yourself as a, as
an individual contributor? Yousaid, be kind, what other things
Tips Tricks, do you findhelpful? To, to know or to test
yourself? Am I a goodcollaborator? Anything? You you
(16:40):
can remember? You did?
Grant Fritchey (16:42):
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love this one? That's a great
question. The one thing Ilearned, learned us again, a
long time ago, is a really hardconversation and a difficult
conversation in that momentwhere like, you need to
influence somebody, you know,and you're trying to
collaborate, use their language,to figure out the way that they
(17:03):
talk, figure out the way thatthey communicate, are they? Are
they more of a tell person ormore of an Ask person? Well, if
they're an Ask person, andyou're a tell person, change the
way you communicate to theirs,you know, ask them questions,
could move them towards whereyou need to move them, and use
their language. So if, if you'rea DBA, go and learn some
(17:27):
development language, understandhow source control works,
understand some of the detailsbehind compiling code, and you
don't even get get the languagethat they use. If you're a
developer, same thing go theother way. Why are DBA so
obsessed with backup? I mean,get, get a little bit of an
understanding of their languageand use that language when you
(17:48):
communicate with them. That's athat's a huge step forward in
terms of getting collaborationgoing. Because if you're if
you're using a more commonlanguage, it's much easier than
to see the other side and findthose places where, oh, hey, I
can help you. Not I'm simplystanding in your way or stopping
(18:09):
you or trying to find a wayaround you, I can help you. And
it makes it much easier to havethat communication and that
conversation.
Eveline Oehrlich (18:18):
What about a leader? Because we all know, but
we all know leader. So yeah,let's leave it at that. But what
can a leader do when he or shesees their challenges within
their team? Or between twoindividuals or whatever? What
What are your thoughts there?
Grant Fritchey (18:38):
Okay, so let's let's break leadership and
management and path. Yes. Andthen and let me try to answer
that question. Because I am awretchedly horrible manager, I
tried moving into that area, andI'm really, really bad at it. So
I'm not going to try to adviseanybody on how you manage
collaboration. But as a leader,you know, whether a team leader,
(19:02):
a technical leader, you know, athought leader, I mean, there's
a lot of leadership you know,there's there's that whole
business possibility versuspersonal responsibility,
personal responsibility, aleader, someone who's looked up
to thought upon as you know, oh,yeah, that's the person who runs
stuff in our organization.That's the first go to person.
(19:22):
Leaders have to set the example.They can't be cracking jokes
about you know, stupiddevelopers or anything like
that. You You've got to besetting the the kind of
communication you expect peopleto do. Second thing you have to
do is bought those moments wherethere's conflict, and where and
(19:44):
when you can rope the peopletogether and get them to, you
know, who communicate with you.Hey, what's the deal? What Why
are we having conflict here? Whyaren't we cooperating and figure
that bit out? Um, I've done itmultiple times from a technical
standpoint, you know, whenpeople are no, no, no, we need
(20:05):
to go left. No, no, no, we needto go right. And you sit them
down and go, Okay, well, hangon, we can't do both. So what is
the right path and work itthrough them on that it's, it
really is still back tocommunication. But as a leader,
your goal is you've got to setyou've got to set the, you know,
the tone that everyone else isgoing to follow.
Eveline Oehrlich (20:28):
I've heard this phrase, casting the shadow.
I think it was during my time atforest or where we did a great
workshop of casting shadows, interms of of leaders. All right.
Excellent. Love that. One morequestion. So this is, of course,
(20:48):
touching on our favorite or sofavorite topic on the pandemic,
right. So we won't be tuckedaway in our home offices
forever. And we were using andgetting back to offices slowly.
Some are not. Some are. Yeah.But my question is, what would
you say has changed in terms ofcollaboration since the
(21:09):
pandemic?
Grant Fritchey (21:11):
That's also a great question. So I've been
working remotely, my, thecompany's headquarters are in
Cambridge, England, and I livein Oklahoma. And so I've been
working remotely for 12 years.And when the pandemic hit, to my
whole thing was well, hey, youknow, Don MacLean, welcome to
(21:32):
the party pal. You know, it'sgreat to have you now in my
boat, where now you're, you nolonger have those hallway
conversations, you no longerhave that fast, fast, effective
face to face communication. Ithink the big thing coming out
of the pandemic, now that we'recoming away from it, I think the
(21:54):
big thing is, is that a lot ofpeople have a better
understanding of the difficultyof remote communication and
remote work. And as we move intothis more hybrid environment, we
all tend to think of, oh, youknow, Peggy's going to be
sitting at home, how do we bringher into this conversation
(22:15):
better? And because they've allexperienced it now, whereas
before, you know, I'm goinglike, hey, please, no one's
listening to me. No one'slistening to me. Now, they all
feel that way meant no onelistened to me when I was
remote. And so I think that Ithink that's roping a lot of
people into a better path.
Eveline Oehrlich (22:35):
That is a great one. Yeah, that makes me
think of I have to find thattonight. That was a great video,
I have to look at it YouTube, itis a funny one where a variety
of folks are in a meeting. Butthey're not in a meeting in the
space. They're like calling infrom different places. It's a
(22:55):
it's a, it's a comedy, 10minutes, laughing about making
jokes about that past of whereyou felt like you. I've been
home office since I would say 20years. And every time I'm in a
meeting, I wanted to saysomething. Nobody listened. And
this is exactly what I feel nowis like I'm part of it. So that
(23:16):
is that is one great outcome, ifI can say that that's an
oxymoron. But one great outcomeof the pandemic, right.
Excellent. Well, Grant, this hasbeen fantastic. I have one more
closing question has nothing todo. Well, maybe it does. What do
you do for fun?
Grant Fritchey (23:33):
Oh, I love radios. I am a amateur radio
operator. And I love playingwith radio tech. And I do all
kinds of crazy stuff with it.From analog work, to digital
work, stuff inside the housestuff outside the house. I'm not
even going to try to bore anyonewith all the details. But I love
(23:53):
my radios and I play with them alot. How
Eveline Oehrlich (23:56):
my colleague at Forrester, my former
colleague at Forrester was or isstill in that he actually put a
tower next to his house. Do youhave a tower?
Grant Fritchey (24:06):
No, not yet. Right now. Got a couple of small
antennas outside. But I've beenlooking at bigger one. For my
wife.
Eveline Oehrlich (24:16):
There we go. I was just going to say the
spousal unit will need toapprove I can understand that.
Well, this has been a greatconversation. Grant, thank you
so much for joining me today onhumans of DevOps podcast.
Grant Fritchey (24:31):
No, thank you. I really appreciate it. Like I
said, this is a great podcast. Ilistened to it.
Eveline Oehrlich (24:35):
Great. Thank you. Humans of DevOps podcast is
produced by DevOps Institute.Our audio production team
includes Julia Pape DanielNewman, Schultz and Brendan
Leahy. Shout out to myteammates. I'm humans of the
Rob's podcast executive producerEvelyn earlyish. If you would
like to join us on a podcastplease contact us at humans of
(24:56):
DevOps podcast at DevOpsinstitute.com. Please No, I did
not misspeak, any of that. I'mEvelyn earlyish. Talk to you
soon.
Narrator (25:08):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of
DevOps podcast. Don't forget tojoin our global community to get
access to even more greatresources like this. Until next
time, remember, you are part ofsomething bigger than yourself.
You belong
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