February 1, 2023 • 42 mins
Change is constant and ever-evolving. Eveline Oehrlich and Hazel Chappell join forces to explore how you can humanize this process for success in today's dynamic climate.
Hazel is a woman business owner/entrepreneur and moved to America under years ago, landing in Austin, Texas. She is in the business of healthcare and Biomedicine with 20 years of experience where she has headed up ventures across Europe. including the UK, Sweden, Spain and Ireland and has a diverse network across America and globally. Hazel is CEO and Founder of ishca health Inc which provides consulting and advisory services around 3 key areas:
Hazel is a woman business owner/entrepreneur and moved to America under years ago, landing in Austin, Texas. She is in the business of healthcare and Biomedicine with 20 years of experience where she has headed up ventures across Europe. including the UK, Sweden, Spain and Ireland and has a diverse network across America and globally. Hazel is CEO and Founder of ishca health Inc which provides consulting and advisory services around 3 key areas:
- Continuous Change
- Cyber Basics 101
- Executive Advisory to C-Suite, Small Businesses
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Episode Transcript
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Narrator (00:02):
You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing thehumans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas and learning,or the SKIL framework.
Hazel Chappell (00:16):
So that was really, I will say, a turning
point. It was actually a knifein the heart for me, and I
decided just to look at what islocally around me and what how
can I actually have that worklife balance, which was hugely
important to me.
Eveline Oehrlich (00:34):
Hello, welcome to the Humans of DevOps Podcast.
I'm Eveline Oehrlich, ChiefResearch Officer at the DevOps
Institute. Our topic today isHumanizing Change, Innovating
Health and Care During DigitalTransformation. Thank you again
for listening to us and thankyou for being here. Today we
(00:56):
have with us Hazel Chapell. Ithink that is how you say your
name Hazel. Is that correct?
Hazel Chappell (01:02):
Yes. If that's the way you want it, that's fine
or chapel, whatever.
Eveline Oehrlich (01:06):
Oh, chapel, alright. I want to make sure
because sometimes, I used to besometimes a little bit of fun
and when people say my lastname, so chapel, alright, Hazel
Chapell. Great. Let me giveeverybody here a little bit of
an introduction of what aboutHazel, and then we just get
right into it. So Hazel is awomen business owner
(01:28):
entrepreneur and moved to NorthAmerica years ago today. She's
actually in Austin, Texas. Nowin a pre talk Hazel and I have
figured out that she actuallyspent her Christmas over in
Europe, where she doesn't resideanymore, but she has family. And
I actually moved and spent myChristmas over in the US so we
(01:49):
probably crossed each otheracross somewhere on the pond
Hazel through during the time.So she is in the business of
health care and biomedicine with20 years and more experience,
where she headed up venturesacross Europe to include the UK,
Sweden, Spain and Ireland andhas a very diverse network in
(02:12):
health care and biomedicineacross America and globally.
Hazel is the CEO and founder ofich HCA health Incorporated,
which provides consulting andadvisory services around three
key areas. continuous change,which of course is something
we'll talk a little bit aboutcyber basics one on one, and she
(02:33):
provides Executive Advisory to Csuite and small businesses.
She's also an adviser toAustin's Dell med Health
Innovation catalyst program,where she reviews and
contributes to a broad spectrumof entrepreneurial innovative
initiatives. She enjoys speakingon a variety of topics pertinent
(02:54):
to healthcare and biomedicinewith a key theme of digital
security in her delivery. Andthat's really how I found her
when I was looking around forsome experts in digital and
particular verticals. So Hazelagain, thank you. She's
passionate about reducing riskto businesses and keeping
(03:14):
businesses safe. She hasrecently been a guest Pam speak
with European Connected HealthAlliance on the topic of data
culture around cybersecurityIreland I actually was listening
to that was quite good.Additional asleep she sorry.
Additionally, she was presentingeducator to senior dexus Texas
data leaders on digitaltransformation includes
(03:37):
leadership. She is also a memberof a variety of topics and areas
let me mention a few. Bio NorthTexas, Texas interoperability
collaborative. Oh my goodnessOh, West Austin and awarded
Alaskan batch. England's digitalleadership network health
(03:58):
informatics Society of Irelandand a few other things such as
the H I M S. S. Austin chapter.Welcome to our podcast, Hazel.
Hazel Chappell (04:08):
Thank you, Eveline. Appreciate you having
me here.
Eveline Oehrlich (04:11):
Yes, delighted to have you. And I love that we
both have different accents. Sothis will be a lot of fun
because we can challenge eachother. I love Irish. Of course.
I love the Irish accent. And Iused to work at a company where
they had a lot of Irish folks.And sometimes we made we laughed
at each other when we saidcertain words but I promise I
(04:34):
will not laugh at you. And ifyou promise that you will not
laugh at me either. So the firstthing is QA. Am I saying that
correct? Yes, that is correct.It means water in Irish. I saw
that and found that out in yourpodcast or webinar you did. Tell
(04:56):
us more about the name of yourcompany.
Hazel Chappell (04:59):
Sure. are. So it's good is the Irish word
translated from the? Well, it'sit's the Irish word translated,
meaning water. Now it isactually spelled differently in
the Irish language. UISCE but Idid really think about how that
(05:20):
would be actually read. So Iwent with the phonetic spelling
of it. And while it means water,which is one of the basic needs
of life for health, it'simportant that it would be clean
water. And I just thought it waspertinent to the business that I
mean, and how for health andwellness.
Eveline Oehrlich (05:41):
great idea. Love that. If I need a company
name, I will reach out to younow, how did you get into an
involved in healthcare? Give usa little bit about your journey?
Hazel Chappell (05:52):
Sure. And so from a business point of view, I
had been working internationallyin technology, and also within
the financial industry. And atthe time, I was in London, and I
had worked in Bloomberg andReuters. And where I then was
currently in Merrill Lynch, andmy daughter, who was turning two
(06:15):
at the time said to me, Mom,when are you ever going to have
breakfast with me? Because youcan imagine within that
industry, the hours and the daysare long. So that was really I
wouldn't say a turning point. Itwas actually a knife in the
heart for me, being a mom, and Idecided just to take that step
and look at what is locallyaround me. And what how can I
(06:37):
actually have that work lifebalance, which was hugely
important to me. So it wasreally on the back of that, that
I ended up getting theopportunity within what's called
a trust in England. So it's oneof the large ecosystems. And
that's how I fell intohealthcare within the world of
(06:57):
what's now known as electronicpatient record and the beginning
of the digital world. So thatwas over 20 years ago.
Eveline Oehrlich (07:07):
Wow. Yeah, being a mother myself. similar
challenges, I decided to shiftfrom a technology vendor into
becoming an industry analyst andjoined Forrester in 2006. Little
did I know that I would be gone70% traveling. And I remember my
kids saying the same thing. Mom,when are you ever going to be
(07:28):
here for my soccer game? So yes,great, great, great change for
you, in my case, wasn't thatgreat. But I know my daughter is
so successful, despite the factthat I've been traveling. Now,
as I mentioned, I've been ananalyst for quite some time and
still function. Besides beingChief Research Officer at the
(07:49):
DevOps Institute, I still doquite a lot of work around
researching different topics.One, of course, is to digital
transformation. I heard you sayI think it was a net webinar, I
was watching The DigitalTransformation actually started
in 2003. In healthcare, Iactually was, was quite blown
(08:11):
away by that. But I believe youbecause you are there, I am not
in the vertical. So when youstep back and kind of look at
the topic of digitaltransformation, and when we
think about the maturity of zeroto five, like zero, non existent
and five, it's like highmaturity. Where would you say,
(08:33):
the health care in general, Iknow this is hard, because
there's so many differentaspects, but in general, from a
top down, where in terms ofmaturity is healthcare today,
even you are doing global work,maybe highlight some of the
regions, maybe Americas or NorthAmerica versus Europe? I think
(08:54):
that would be really great forus, our listeners, because some
of them might be in the healthcare vertical.
Hazel Chappell (09:01):
Sure. So I will just also pick up on you know,
that date 2003. And certainlylisteners would say no,
actually, it started before thenand which I would agree I joined
in 2002 or something like that.And I guess really the the
movements slash momentum hadalready kickstart for a variety
(09:24):
of reasons. When I was workingin the UK. It was about having
one patient one record due to anumber of significant, I suppose
patient safety incidents. Andthen of course, 911 came along
and one could argue that thatcertainly was the accelerator of
the need to have a more digitalfootprint and certainly within
(09:47):
healthcare. So I guess I'm oneof those people that has
actually come across or youknow, worked across the spectrum
from the digitization thedigital lives. nation, and where
we are in terms of digitaltransformation. So if you take
those three angles from us,certainly, I was heavily
(10:10):
immersed within the going frompaper, you know, what was called
in, and certainly in England,the Lord George records, in
other words, the physical paperpiles, right through to
digitizing those. I feel, Iguess, proud and informed and
(10:31):
been able to take lessonslearned from, from all those
areas really, and the journeythat you mentioned, from where
we are today, ironically, and Iwill look ahead from a
geographical point of view. Sothere are pockets of areas,
certainly within Europe. Youknow, I will say in Ireland,
(10:52):
within England, and certainlygoing abroad that are still
actually paper records, andcertainly within child health.
That is very much the case andlooking at how to integrate the
digital health aspect there. Itis really, you know, since since
my arrival here in America, Ican see that digital is the way
(11:15):
there are a few areas thataren't. And that's just to my, I
suppose linear lens, if I mayput it like that. So and then,
of course, then you takecountries like Australia that
are doing actually, you know,massive transformation. Now, I
will actually roll back as wellto Ireland and say that, I sat
(11:38):
on one of the governmentadvisory committees about as an
expert within the need toimplement or to have changed at
the forefront of their digitaltransformation journey. And it
was my privilege and honor tosit alongside that then CIO,
Richard corporate, who, in myopinion, is that local, global
icon for digital transformation.So it is, there are areas that,
(12:05):
you know, certainly beeninvolved in HIMS, as well and
Health Information ManagementSociety, they support it and
help accelerate that digitalmaturity from hospital providers
and organizations to achievingcertain levels. And what that
actually brings about whether itis to have full what we call
(12:29):
digital transformation andinteroperability of data, but
that can actually mean adifferent things subject to what
the technology is enabling aswell. So I guess really to
summarize, everlean, there is,there is so much more to do, I
would say maybe that we're in atwo to three, I have no doubt
(12:50):
that there would be people whowould actually, you know, who
are listening into this and go,Hey, you know, actually, I think
we're a little bit furtherafield. And that would be within
those areas pockets, which yet,again, is the siloed. There's
the siloed locations, which canbe the challenge to achieving
(13:10):
what the absolute ultimateobjectives of digital
transformation is about.
Eveline Oehrlich (13:16):
So yes, I'm sure we have some folks who
would say one or the other,right, in terms of the maturity,
but it is a fairly complex, asyou said, a topic with many
facets and many angles. And butI think, as you said to to
whatever to be three, I thinkthat indicates that, from your
(13:38):
perspective of a practitionerand an expert that are still
more to go. I did look thismorning quickly at the agenda in
Davos, as you I'm sure arefamiliar with the most beautiful
place in Switzerland, hopefullythey have some snow and they can
ski. Many leaders are visitingeach other and with each other
to make some challenges or toaddress some challenges. I did
(14:01):
not see a lot around particularverticals, but I will have to
research again for ourlisteners, take a look at the
W's and what's happening thereas always very good. World
Economic Forum has always very,very good content and knowledge
and details around digitaltransformation. All right now, I
(14:23):
was intrigued by your talk onhumanizing change. It was really
music to my ears because we atDevOps Institute are really
focusing on the human aspectsof, of these different modern
operating models such as DevOps,agile and so on. And so I have a
(14:45):
quote, I hope this is correct.You said humanizing change is a
vital part of any organization'sdigital transformation. Taking a
people centric approach has timeand time again shown to reduce
risk. minimize cost and foster aculture that embraces change not
only now, but also in thefuture. In an environment of
(15:08):
rapid and current unprecedentedchange, we provide the glue that
holds people together inchallenging times to deliver
critical outcomes. So don'toverlook your organization's
most important asset beforeconducting digital
transformation. This isabsolutely beautiful. I do know
(15:29):
and Gartner and others say thatthe challenges around digital
transformation is really theculture. So you're hitting, as
we say, in Germany, the nailright on its head, tell us a
little bit more about thishumanizing change? What do you
mean by that give us a littlemore color, because again, I'm
sure many of the listeners areintrigued by your statement and
(15:53):
want to understand more abouthumanizing change.
Hazel Chappell (15:57):
Sure. So I may get a little bit passionate
here. For me, so go with me onthis. So to me, I suppose as it
infers humanizing is really isall about the people. I found
when I was implementingelectronic health records across
any ecosystem, it wasn't aboutthe technology, we as humans are
(16:19):
individuals. So whether thereare commonalities that we have,
at the end of the day, we areintrinsically individuals. So
when I talk about the people, itcan be people in a variety of, I
suppose it can be broken down.So it can be actually your
customers, it can be the endusers, it can be the patients.
(16:42):
But when I talk about people aswell, I also talk about the
mindsets. And from that thing,you have to look up behaviors.
Now, a great person I'veadmiration for is Dr. Bob
Wachter, and he was brought inby the NHS in England to
actually assess and how toimprove the National Health
(17:04):
Service in England. And he spokeabout people can be the problem,
but people can also be thesolution. And that, clearly, the
fact that I'm, you know,recounting his phrase, and
certainly has resonance to withme, in essence, in my opinion,
and experience, people, thingsdon't work unless you involve
(17:27):
the people it is, you know, toactually have them engaged to
actually have them motivated tohave them informed, to have them
at what I call the core of whichis why that we have, you know,
user centric or human centricapproaches, is invalid to
actually accelerate or toexpedite and achieve on those
(17:50):
goals that an organization hasactually set out. And speaking
with some organizations, youknow, certainly within the last
two years, as well, where we'reexactly as I say, in an era of
unprecedented change, and thefew top cracy of work, when you
take all of that, it is really,absolutely important to ensure
(18:13):
that people are engaged, thatthey trust that they are
motivated. And what does thatthat actually look like? Or are
we actually looking at humans,and extrapolating their, their
true skills that perhaps aren'tused within the workplace? Well,
that's where we can then lookat, you know, costs and the
(18:36):
other aspects as well, reducingrisk to, to meet the business
needs. And I'll give you anotherincident, actually, if you take
a cybersecurity takedown or anincident, people look at the
technology and they startlooking at the logs and see why
this happened. And absolutely,you know, and I will take the
(19:00):
example and I'm sure many peopleacross the country who are
hospital systems have beenbrought down as well, to focus
on the needs of the workforceand ensure that they are well
looked after that they are keptthere working around the clock
to ensure that the system iskept up for patients and you
(19:22):
know, for the health ofpatients, etc. And sometimes
that can actually be forgottenthat it's not just about the
technology we need to focus on,whether it's the security
people, whether it's actuallythe clinicians, how do we ensure
the continuous care of thepatients and how do we support
(19:45):
the workforce to help us resolvethe issue in hand?
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Eveline Oehrlich (20:24):
You know, I just remembered a data point,
which was brought up by JohnClifton, who is the CEO of
Gallup, they did a researchproject. And they have been
doing this for quite a whilenow, I think I want to say maybe
10 years, and I just did apodcast with John Clifton as
(20:45):
well. He said that is 22findings in the 22 findings on
engagement, only 21% of peopleare engaged today at their
workplace. I found that sad, butat the same time, I do
(21:06):
understand why. Because there issome reasoning in that report.
But again, I find that really,really sad, and particularly in
the vertical, where you are, andwhat is so essential,
particularly after the pandemic,and what is in front of us
relative to all of that, thatengagement from both the folks
(21:29):
or from all the focus right, hasto be addressed. And so really
quite, quite a motivational andquite a passionate topic. So I'm
glad you have passion. And I'mlooking forward to additional
conversations on that. Now, astechnologists, as you said, Yes,
human humanizing change, and weneed to make sure that we engage
(21:53):
and make sure we have engagedfolks. What do you see in terms
of challenge across thehumanizing change, specifically
in health care? I mean, let mejust read really quickly, a
couple of things I experiencedrecently, my father in law, had
to be in a hospital the lastthree days for a surgery. And
(22:16):
that was a very pleasantengagement, because the people
there were extremely focused onlet's call it patient
experience, were two months ago,in a different hospital, the
experience was completelydifferent to different carriers,
or I don't know what the actuallanguages but to providers, I
think, is the right word, rightfrom both hospitals. One was
(22:39):
more. I don't know, just verydifferent. I don't want to go
into religion, because actually,one was a religious provider,
which was just a very pleasantexperience. What are some
challenges you see acrosshumanizing change within
healthcare?
Hazel Chappell (22:58):
That's a great question. And I can take it from
different angles, if I may. It'sfrom a business point of view,
and certainly within what Iwould call the senior management
and leadership suite, andspecifically within healthcare,
and I say that rather thanactually maybe more of the
(23:18):
Biomedicine or life sciencespart is actually the lack of
translation. And what do I meanby that when you actually take a
C suite, you have chief medicalofficer, you have Chief
Operating Officer, you havechief digital information
officer, so you've chief, youknow, Chief, CX, Chief of
(23:43):
chiefs, let's say. So withoutactually breaking that time,
you've technology ofoperational, you've, you know,
executive, and then of course,you've actually got the
clinicians in hand. And if youtake, for example, a topic like
cybersecurity, which I will addas well is not as prevalent, and
(24:07):
as regular on the agendas, as Iwould like to see. But that's
another area of passion for me.But when you take in somebody is
presenting that language to theboard. It is absolutely my
experience. And I'm veryconfident in saying that, that
the information that iscommunicated is not always
clear. I'm actually what does itmean by actually communicating
(24:29):
this information? And what isthe impact of that information
being communicated as well? Andthat is where that whether it is
actually we want we have adigital transformation program
that is starting up what doesthis look like? The need to have
somebody there translating andunderstand is absolutely
(24:51):
essential. And you know, I had agreat conversation with a leader
from the Department of Defenseyesterday and he absolutely
Nuclear agreed with me becauseeven from his world, and going
into commercial world as well,it is an area that, as I say, in
my opinion, is a key challenge.Also, as well that, you know, I
(25:14):
mentioned communications aswell, my experiences, what is
really communication look like?So if you take, I use the
analogy of cleanliness betweennaught and five, you have
somebody who thinks clean isgood, or two or three. And then
you have the other end of thescale five, which is perhaps
(25:34):
maybe a little bit OCD.Communication is like that as
well, though, when somebodythinks that communicate
effectively, actually isn't evermeasured how it's understood, or
is it expected that it isunderstood? And what does that
look like, within anorganization, I was brought in
(25:55):
to spearhead a failing programat one point. And one of the
first things that when I lookedat it was really, you know, and
you spoke earlier aboutworkforce not being engaged.
And, and it was really, becausethey didn't know what the
leadership were trying tocommunicate, they were only told
(26:16):
from their direct manager, thatthis is the instruction that
needs to be done. But having theoverarching vision and
objectives was was not veryclear. In terms of as well, I
was, you know, the hairs justwent up in my arms when you
said, I believe about thepatient experience. I'm a
(26:38):
patient as well. And I cancategorically say, that
irrespective of what providersystem, my goodness, it is
really, you know, sad actually,that how the patient walks in
the door. And the level ofinteraction is very, very
impersonal. And it really takesa variety of, I suppose people
(27:03):
to understand that everybody isa patient, there are global
leaders across the way who havecertainly transformed themselves
because of a loved one orexactly to your point that
you're able to now tell thestory around a family member
with a good or and thankfully,it was a very good experience.
(27:24):
And sometimes that can actuallybe the catalyst for leaders to
really become more empathic andhumble, irrespective of the
mentoring or coaching ortraining that they should be
getting. And my question is,well, why aren't you like that
to begin with, because we allwant to be treated as how we
would like to be treated, andhow we should be treating other
(27:47):
people in our everyday lives.You know, you mentioned
Eveline Oehrlich (27:52):
two key words, which are quite important. Of
course, one is communication.And I would add, actually
collaboration. And the second isempathy, as part of our work.
And as part of my work at theDevOps Institute, for the last
five years, we have looked atskills. And you know, of course,
we look at technical schools,and we look at classes, skills,
(28:15):
and framework skills, and allthose wonderful things. But we
also look at human skills, weused to call them soft skills.
But as you know, there's nothingsoft about soft skills, they're
really hard human skills arehard, and the top two must have
are communication andcollaboration, and then empathy.
But at the same time, whilethese are the top must have
(28:38):
skills, those are the biggestskill gaps across, wait about
3000 data data points this year,which to me, again, is for the
five years or five years, now wehave these two gaps, or there's
others. But these are two keygaps. And I do think your point
on leaders and leadership,understanding and having the
(29:03):
right perspective of what isnecessary, is something which
hopefully, we will see fromleaders in the future, in this
year and further on. We cannotcontinue this way. That's what I
would say.
Hazel Chappell (29:19):
And I would agree and if I can just pick you
up and drill down a little bitmore on that. So empathy to me
is around actually also havingthe emotional intelligence and
that to me is a very inherentskill or trait or personality
within somebody. Now, we can alllearn and we can read books and
(29:42):
understand it. But if I actuallytake as well, you know, the
book, what they don't teach youat Harvard Business, School, and
empathy and emotionalintelligence is one of those
things for me as well that whenyou take where certain
leadership are at a certain Ah,you know are our behaviors can
(30:02):
be a little bit, I suppose,solidified, that can be
ingrained on us. So suddenly tohave to turn and pivot to become
this empathic leader, and toactually become more humble, is
a big challenge and an uphillbattle for those leaders who are
currently in place. But it is, Itotally agree with you something
(30:23):
that has to happen to meet thedemands of the way that the
challenges that we'reencountering today, because our
Gen Z, and our, you know,millennials are coming in, and
they sometimes habit, so whetherit's through their dyslexia,
whether it's through who theyare, just as people are with
(30:44):
their global, you know,experience of becoming travelled
around and more knowledgeable,but actually, they become more
wise with that knowledge aswell, way ahead of our time.
That that is something that Isee is going to change a lot
further down the line. And Iknow that couldn't be perhaps a
contesting comment of mine.
Eveline Oehrlich (31:04):
And I see that with my daughters as well, as I
was said I was visiting withthem in the US with Christmas,
and both of them areprofessionals. One is an
architect. The other one is ananalyst for like, they say that
apple doesn't fall far from thetree. She's in service
management, actually. But Butboth have very different EQs
(31:25):
than what I would say I had whenI was their age, right, the 27
and 25. So absolutely, I thinkthe generational challenges
there will be will we who areI'm a baby boomer, can we learn?
Will we be open enough to adopt?I see that DevOps Institute as
well, we have many young folkswho I can learn from, and I
(31:46):
enjoy working with them, becauseI'm open, but not everybody can
be and will learn. And that getsme to another question. And I
know we are. This one is alittle bit around learning.
continuous learning is somethingwe talk a lot about, and a lot
of the HR or learning anddevelopment folks aware and
(32:08):
familiar with that. And in thislearning also is a key principle
within DevOps. Is that appliedwithin the healthcare industry?
Hazel Chappell (32:18):
Oh, my goodness, absolutely. Yes. And I would
actually say certainly withinbiomedicine and beyond as well,
why because it's bad stayingrelevant. There is so much
innovation, as we know, that'salready there, that's coming
down the stream as well. Andit's actually about, we need to
be prepared for the unexpected.So whether it is actually you
(32:42):
know, here in Austin as well,you've got the army futures
command, who are looking atinnovative ways of for out in,
you know, for the health oftheir soldiers out in the
warfield. And that is actuallyhappening within healthcare as
well. So even if you takediabetes, how it was treated
years ago, and where it is now,there is a need for clinical
(33:06):
continuous learning. But interms of businesses, well, you
know, I mentioned earlier aboutfew takasi, and workforce, and
how are we learning andadapting, you know, I was even
looking at the other day, the 20to 50 new buzzwords of 2020 3am.
(33:26):
I balk in one way, because insome cases, we have to use those
words in our daily deliveries orpresentations or whatever,
because other people will beusing them. But at the same
time, I'm a big fan of justkeeping it plain English. But
when we take, you know, webthree and Metaverse and
(33:50):
blockchain from a technologypoint of view, it is important
even for somebody like myself,who is not Well, shall we say,
let me put it the inverse. Thereare the technology experts out
there, there are the clinicalexperts out there. But it is
important that I have anunderstanding of what this is
about, to be able to do theadvisory and consulting as well,
(34:15):
you know, within the the area ofbusiness that I that I'm in. So
continuous learning as well,then from an individual point of
view view is always about beingself curious. You know, I have
actually created this diagramand this is purely from my
experience of gettingunexpectedly involved in
(34:37):
cybersecurity through anabsolutely awesome leader,
Charles Archer, and it wasactually the exposure to
cybersecurity, that helped to Isuppose, develop my curiosity
and in turn that motivated me.So when I look at that And then
(35:00):
the motivation continues mycuriosity to keep going and
become cyclical. So there, I'veapproached your questions from
different aspects. Butinherently, you know, I would
always encourage somebody tolearn continuously. And I guess
really, you know, an aberrationof mine is when people talk
(35:22):
about retiring or don't retire,or shall we say they step back
from their current job at acertain age, so nobody, I know
lots of people who never retire,continuous learning for them,
it's just, you know, it'sfantastic to actually see it in
the atrium for the health of themind, for actually, to my point
in staying relevant. So whetherit's technology, I've had the
(35:45):
opportunity to be involved in anabsolutely phenomenal effort
here within North Austin. Andit's about, you know, supporting
the age and the health andprevention of as well. So those
are different factors from ahealth point of view. And then
also as well, as I say,innovation is coming down the
(36:06):
line. So whether it is somethingfrom cell and gene therapy,
right through to twotechnologies. I will go back to
why I'm talking about continuouschange. It's not going to stop.
Eveline Oehrlich (36:20):
Yeah. So you said curiosity and excitement.
We do know and read about, youknow, quiet quitting, and
burnout and all of that. And Idon't want to belittle it,
because it's existing. But as wehave a lot of different
listeners from the digitalnatives, to Gen Z's to Baby
Boomers to maybe some folks whoare, as you said, stepping back,
(36:41):
I love that, because I don'treally like the word retirement,
I'll never will retire, I'lljust step back. But given that
there is also lots of curiosity,and you said you fell into the
cybersecurity because you werecurious, what would you advise
some of our listeners to thinkdo or take on to enter the
(37:01):
healthcare industry? Because thehealthcare industry vertical,
not just in the US, not just inEurope, across the globe, is
essential for all of us. Becauseas you said, we need healthy
people we need, we need ahealthy planet, but without
healthy people, we can't have ahealthy planet. So a couple
words for some advice, whatshould people think about when
(37:23):
they are due when they want toenter the healthcare industry?
Hazel Chappell (37:27):
So if I may ask you a question everlean. So that
I can answer your question morearticulately? Do you mean from a
technology point of view? Oractually from the care aspect?
Eveline Oehrlich (37:38):
Both actually technology? Of course, you know,
that's important. Like you said,cybersecurity, and whatever else
is in there. So maybe we gothere first. And then from the,
the, the other, the otherperspective, what type of
people? What do I need to thinkabout what skills should I have?
And how should I get in? WhatWhat should I learn? How should
(37:59):
I prepare? And yes,
Hazel Chappell (38:02):
so I guess contrary to what you might
think, I'm a great believer, I'mbeing cynical, but myself there.
I'm a great believer in talkingto people and seeking out the
right people who can give theirpoint of view. And, you know, I
have a daughter who's lucky nowto what area of her career is
(38:24):
she going to go in, and one canhave an inherent instinct of
maybe what good could look likeor what their skill set could
be, you know about, but it'salso in actually talking to
people and understanding, orsometimes unexpectedly, it's
having that experience that canreally just cement where their
(38:46):
area is about having theexperience, you know, this is
why they're interns out thereare internships I say, as well
to give that experience,volunteer some time, you know,
so whether it's first aid orwhether it is actually just I
you know, what can what can Ido? There was a point in my
career where I wasn't sure did Iactually want to go into
(39:10):
catering so I just literallytook I took a bone to Pro to
rang up the top hotels in Dublinand asked can I go and join in
their kitchens for a day, I waslucky that I was actually able
to join the executive chefs andone of Dublin's top hotel. And
to this day, if somebody gave meit to me as a present, it is the
(39:33):
most invaluable because I hadthe experience the understanding
and to really make thatdecision. So now cooking is my
passion rather than actually mymy my way of living. But so
that's what I would say justreach out to people don't be
afraid to, you know, the rightpeople will want to help and
(39:53):
actually support the youngerpeople coming about or whether
it is it's actually just acomplete change of career and
industry in some capacities,because now, a lot of days I see
for example, when I takeorganizations and look at their
cyber posture, you know, one onone, shall we say, it is
(40:15):
actually industry agnostic, itis using those commonalities.
And then actually, how can youmatch and transplant and
certainly my experiences, therewill be one person who you will
always remember their words andtheir sayings and maybe you
know, one day become theirmentor as well.
Eveline Oehrlich (40:35):
Beautiful. All right. I have one more question
for you completely different.You already mentioned something
you're doing for fun, which iscooking, but what else do you do
for fun Hazel?
Hazel Chappell (40:47):
Oh, wow. Now I have a big smile on my face. So
I it can be anything from half aday I flipped my daughter
because we literally and this isa very Irish saying when we're
together having fun, we can beto tittering twits to me
laughter is absolutely is youknow, raises the endorphins and
(41:11):
I am so so blessed that I getthat with my daughter so so
much. And when I have fun, am Ikind of need to, you know, I
suppose clear a few cobwebs. Ilove doing tennis. So to me
sport in any capacity, even ifyou're not sporty is good for
the mind and the soul. It can bevery relaxing as well. I'm a
(41:35):
little bit of a socialbutterfly, and it goes back to I
am very blessed to have goodpeople around me that yet again
and I'm unexpectedly findingmyself saying that laughter fun
humor is is how I expel anintern. Have fun. And also
(41:56):
remaining curious.
Eveline Oehrlich (41:58):
If you ever get close to Stuttgart Germany,
please ring me up. I'd love tohang out with you. I invite you
to come and we'll have fun andlaugh together. We have been
talking to Hazel Chapelle,global thought leader within the
healthcare industry. Hazel,thank you so much for joining me
(42:19):
today on humans of DevOps. Andfor our listeners humans of
DevOps podcast is produced byDevOps Institute. Our audio
production team includes JuliaPapp and Brendan Lay. I am the
Humans of DevOps PodcastExecutive roducer Eveline
Oehrlich. If you would like tojoin us on a podcast, please
contact us at Humans of DevOpspodcast at DevOps institute.com.
(42:43):
I'm Eveline Oehrlich talk to yousoon.
Narrator (42:49):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Humans of
DevOps Podcast. Don't forget tojoin our global community to get
access to even more greatresources like this. Until next
time, remember, you are part ofsomething bigger than yourself.
You belong
You're listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing thehumans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas and learning,or the SKIL framework.
Hazel Chappell (00:16):
So that was really, I will say, a turning
point. It was actually a knifein the heart for me, and I
decided just to look at what islocally around me and what how
can I actually have that worklife balance, which was hugely
important to me.
Eveline Oehrlich (00:34):
Hello, welcome to the Humans of DevOps Podcast.
I'm Eveline Oehrlich, ChiefResearch Officer at the DevOps
Institute. Our topic today isHumanizing Change, Innovating
Health and Care During DigitalTransformation. Thank you again
for listening to us and thankyou for being here. Today we
(00:56):
have with us Hazel Chapell. Ithink that is how you say your
name Hazel. Is that correct?
Hazel Chappell (01:02):
Yes. If that's the way you want it, that's fine
or chapel, whatever.
Eveline Oehrlich (01:06):
Oh, chapel, alright. I want to make sure
because sometimes, I used to besometimes a little bit of fun
and when people say my lastname, so chapel, alright, Hazel
Chapell. Great. Let me giveeverybody here a little bit of
an introduction of what aboutHazel, and then we just get
right into it. So Hazel is awomen business owner
(01:28):
entrepreneur and moved to NorthAmerica years ago today. She's
actually in Austin, Texas. Nowin a pre talk Hazel and I have
figured out that she actuallyspent her Christmas over in
Europe, where she doesn't resideanymore, but she has family. And
I actually moved and spent myChristmas over in the US so we
(01:49):
probably crossed each otheracross somewhere on the pond
Hazel through during the time.So she is in the business of
health care and biomedicine with20 years and more experience,
where she headed up venturesacross Europe to include the UK,
Sweden, Spain and Ireland andhas a very diverse network in
(02:12):
health care and biomedicineacross America and globally.
Hazel is the CEO and founder ofich HCA health Incorporated,
which provides consulting andadvisory services around three
key areas. continuous change,which of course is something
we'll talk a little bit aboutcyber basics one on one, and she
(02:33):
provides Executive Advisory to Csuite and small businesses.
She's also an adviser toAustin's Dell med Health
Innovation catalyst program,where she reviews and
contributes to a broad spectrumof entrepreneurial innovative
initiatives. She enjoys speakingon a variety of topics pertinent
(02:54):
to healthcare and biomedicinewith a key theme of digital
security in her delivery. Andthat's really how I found her
when I was looking around forsome experts in digital and
particular verticals. So Hazelagain, thank you. She's
passionate about reducing riskto businesses and keeping
(03:14):
businesses safe. She hasrecently been a guest Pam speak
with European Connected HealthAlliance on the topic of data
culture around cybersecurityIreland I actually was listening
to that was quite good.Additional asleep she sorry.
Additionally, she was presentingeducator to senior dexus Texas
data leaders on digitaltransformation includes
(03:37):
leadership. She is also a memberof a variety of topics and areas
let me mention a few. Bio NorthTexas, Texas interoperability
collaborative. Oh my goodnessOh, West Austin and awarded
Alaskan batch. England's digitalleadership network health
(03:58):
informatics Society of Irelandand a few other things such as
the H I M S. S. Austin chapter.Welcome to our podcast, Hazel.
Hazel Chappell (04:08):
Thank you, Eveline. Appreciate you having
me here.
Eveline Oehrlich (04:11):
Yes, delighted to have you. And I love that we
both have different accents. Sothis will be a lot of fun
because we can challenge eachother. I love Irish. Of course.
I love the Irish accent. And Iused to work at a company where
they had a lot of Irish folks.And sometimes we made we laughed
at each other when we saidcertain words but I promise I
(04:34):
will not laugh at you. And ifyou promise that you will not
laugh at me either. So the firstthing is QA. Am I saying that
correct? Yes, that is correct.It means water in Irish. I saw
that and found that out in yourpodcast or webinar you did. Tell
(04:56):
us more about the name of yourcompany.
Hazel Chappell (04:59):
Sure. are. So it's good is the Irish word
translated from the? Well, it'sit's the Irish word translated,
meaning water. Now it isactually spelled differently in
the Irish language. UISCE but Idid really think about how that
(05:20):
would be actually read. So Iwent with the phonetic spelling
of it. And while it means water,which is one of the basic needs
of life for health, it'simportant that it would be clean
water. And I just thought it waspertinent to the business that I
mean, and how for health andwellness.
Eveline Oehrlich (05:41):
great idea. Love that. If I need a company
name, I will reach out to younow, how did you get into an
involved in healthcare? Give usa little bit about your journey?
Hazel Chappell (05:52):
Sure. And so from a business point of view, I
had been working internationallyin technology, and also within
the financial industry. And atthe time, I was in London, and I
had worked in Bloomberg andReuters. And where I then was
currently in Merrill Lynch, andmy daughter, who was turning two
(06:15):
at the time said to me, Mom,when are you ever going to have
breakfast with me? Because youcan imagine within that
industry, the hours and the daysare long. So that was really I
wouldn't say a turning point. Itwas actually a knife in the
heart for me, being a mom, and Idecided just to take that step
and look at what is locallyaround me. And what how can I
(06:37):
actually have that work lifebalance, which was hugely
important to me. So it wasreally on the back of that, that
I ended up getting theopportunity within what's called
a trust in England. So it's oneof the large ecosystems. And
that's how I fell intohealthcare within the world of
(06:57):
what's now known as electronicpatient record and the beginning
of the digital world. So thatwas over 20 years ago.
Eveline Oehrlich (07:07):
Wow. Yeah, being a mother myself. similar
challenges, I decided to shiftfrom a technology vendor into
becoming an industry analyst andjoined Forrester in 2006. Little
did I know that I would be gone70% traveling. And I remember my
kids saying the same thing. Mom,when are you ever going to be
(07:28):
here for my soccer game? So yes,great, great, great change for
you, in my case, wasn't thatgreat. But I know my daughter is
so successful, despite the factthat I've been traveling. Now,
as I mentioned, I've been ananalyst for quite some time and
still function. Besides beingChief Research Officer at the
(07:49):
DevOps Institute, I still doquite a lot of work around
researching different topics.One, of course, is to digital
transformation. I heard you sayI think it was a net webinar, I
was watching The DigitalTransformation actually started
in 2003. In healthcare, Iactually was, was quite blown
(08:11):
away by that. But I believe youbecause you are there, I am not
in the vertical. So when youstep back and kind of look at
the topic of digitaltransformation, and when we
think about the maturity of zeroto five, like zero, non existent
and five, it's like highmaturity. Where would you say,
(08:33):
the health care in general, Iknow this is hard, because
there's so many differentaspects, but in general, from a
top down, where in terms ofmaturity is healthcare today,
even you are doing global work,maybe highlight some of the
regions, maybe Americas or NorthAmerica versus Europe? I think
(08:54):
that would be really great forus, our listeners, because some
of them might be in the healthcare vertical.
Hazel Chappell (09:01):
Sure. So I will just also pick up on you know,
that date 2003. And certainlylisteners would say no,
actually, it started before thenand which I would agree I joined
in 2002 or something like that.And I guess really the the
movements slash momentum hadalready kickstart for a variety
(09:24):
of reasons. When I was workingin the UK. It was about having
one patient one record due to anumber of significant, I suppose
patient safety incidents. Andthen of course, 911 came along
and one could argue that thatcertainly was the accelerator of
the need to have a more digitalfootprint and certainly within
(09:47):
healthcare. So I guess I'm oneof those people that has
actually come across or youknow, worked across the spectrum
from the digitization thedigital lives. nation, and where
we are in terms of digitaltransformation. So if you take
those three angles from us,certainly, I was heavily
(10:10):
immersed within the going frompaper, you know, what was called
in, and certainly in England,the Lord George records, in
other words, the physical paperpiles, right through to
digitizing those. I feel, Iguess, proud and informed and
(10:31):
been able to take lessonslearned from, from all those
areas really, and the journeythat you mentioned, from where
we are today, ironically, and Iwill look ahead from a
geographical point of view. Sothere are pockets of areas,
certainly within Europe. Youknow, I will say in Ireland,
(10:52):
within England, and certainlygoing abroad that are still
actually paper records, andcertainly within child health.
That is very much the case andlooking at how to integrate the
digital health aspect there. Itis really, you know, since since
my arrival here in America, Ican see that digital is the way
(11:15):
there are a few areas thataren't. And that's just to my, I
suppose linear lens, if I mayput it like that. So and then,
of course, then you takecountries like Australia that
are doing actually, you know,massive transformation. Now, I
will actually roll back as wellto Ireland and say that, I sat
(11:38):
on one of the governmentadvisory committees about as an
expert within the need toimplement or to have changed at
the forefront of their digitaltransformation journey. And it
was my privilege and honor tosit alongside that then CIO,
Richard corporate, who, in myopinion, is that local, global
icon for digital transformation.So it is, there are areas that,
(12:05):
you know, certainly beeninvolved in HIMS, as well and
Health Information ManagementSociety, they support it and
help accelerate that digitalmaturity from hospital providers
and organizations to achievingcertain levels. And what that
actually brings about whether itis to have full what we call
(12:29):
digital transformation andinteroperability of data, but
that can actually mean adifferent things subject to what
the technology is enabling aswell. So I guess really to
summarize, everlean, there is,there is so much more to do, I
would say maybe that we're in atwo to three, I have no doubt
(12:50):
that there would be people whowould actually, you know, who
are listening into this and go,Hey, you know, actually, I think
we're a little bit furtherafield. And that would be within
those areas pockets, which yet,again, is the siloed. There's
the siloed locations, which canbe the challenge to achieving
(13:10):
what the absolute ultimateobjectives of digital
transformation is about.
Eveline Oehrlich (13:16):
So yes, I'm sure we have some folks who
would say one or the other,right, in terms of the maturity,
but it is a fairly complex, asyou said, a topic with many
facets and many angles. And butI think, as you said to to
whatever to be three, I thinkthat indicates that, from your
(13:38):
perspective of a practitionerand an expert that are still
more to go. I did look thismorning quickly at the agenda in
Davos, as you I'm sure arefamiliar with the most beautiful
place in Switzerland, hopefullythey have some snow and they can
ski. Many leaders are visitingeach other and with each other
to make some challenges or toaddress some challenges. I did
(14:01):
not see a lot around particularverticals, but I will have to
research again for ourlisteners, take a look at the
W's and what's happening thereas always very good. World
Economic Forum has always very,very good content and knowledge
and details around digitaltransformation. All right now, I
(14:23):
was intrigued by your talk onhumanizing change. It was really
music to my ears because we atDevOps Institute are really
focusing on the human aspectsof, of these different modern
operating models such as DevOps,agile and so on. And so I have a
(14:45):
quote, I hope this is correct.You said humanizing change is a
vital part of any organization'sdigital transformation. Taking a
people centric approach has timeand time again shown to reduce
risk. minimize cost and foster aculture that embraces change not
only now, but also in thefuture. In an environment of
(15:08):
rapid and current unprecedentedchange, we provide the glue that
holds people together inchallenging times to deliver
critical outcomes. So don'toverlook your organization's
most important asset beforeconducting digital
transformation. This isabsolutely beautiful. I do know
(15:29):
and Gartner and others say thatthe challenges around digital
transformation is really theculture. So you're hitting, as
we say, in Germany, the nailright on its head, tell us a
little bit more about thishumanizing change? What do you
mean by that give us a littlemore color, because again, I'm
sure many of the listeners areintrigued by your statement and
(15:53):
want to understand more abouthumanizing change.
Hazel Chappell (15:57):
Sure. So I may get a little bit passionate
here. For me, so go with me onthis. So to me, I suppose as it
infers humanizing is really isall about the people. I found
when I was implementingelectronic health records across
any ecosystem, it wasn't aboutthe technology, we as humans are
(16:19):
individuals. So whether thereare commonalities that we have,
at the end of the day, we areintrinsically individuals. So
when I talk about the people, itcan be people in a variety of, I
suppose it can be broken down.So it can be actually your
customers, it can be the endusers, it can be the patients.
(16:42):
But when I talk about people aswell, I also talk about the
mindsets. And from that thing,you have to look up behaviors.
Now, a great person I'veadmiration for is Dr. Bob
Wachter, and he was brought inby the NHS in England to
actually assess and how toimprove the National Health
(17:04):
Service in England. And he spokeabout people can be the problem,
but people can also be thesolution. And that, clearly, the
fact that I'm, you know,recounting his phrase, and
certainly has resonance to withme, in essence, in my opinion,
and experience, people, thingsdon't work unless you involve
(17:27):
the people it is, you know, toactually have them engaged to
actually have them motivated tohave them informed, to have them
at what I call the core of whichis why that we have, you know,
user centric or human centricapproaches, is invalid to
actually accelerate or toexpedite and achieve on those
(17:50):
goals that an organization hasactually set out. And speaking
with some organizations, youknow, certainly within the last
two years, as well, where we'reexactly as I say, in an era of
unprecedented change, and thefew top cracy of work, when you
take all of that, it is really,absolutely important to ensure
(18:13):
that people are engaged, thatthey trust that they are
motivated. And what does thatthat actually look like? Or are
we actually looking at humans,and extrapolating their, their
true skills that perhaps aren'tused within the workplace? Well,
that's where we can then lookat, you know, costs and the
(18:36):
other aspects as well, reducingrisk to, to meet the business
needs. And I'll give you anotherincident, actually, if you take
a cybersecurity takedown or anincident, people look at the
technology and they startlooking at the logs and see why
this happened. And absolutely,you know, and I will take the
(19:00):
example and I'm sure many peopleacross the country who are
hospital systems have beenbrought down as well, to focus
on the needs of the workforceand ensure that they are well
looked after that they are keptthere working around the clock
to ensure that the system iskept up for patients and you
(19:22):
know, for the health ofpatients, etc. And sometimes
that can actually be forgottenthat it's not just about the
technology we need to focus on,whether it's the security
people, whether it's actuallythe clinicians, how do we ensure
the continuous care of thepatients and how do we support
(19:45):
the workforce to help us resolvethe issue in hand?
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Eveline Oehrlich (20:24):
You know, I just remembered a data point,
which was brought up by JohnClifton, who is the CEO of
Gallup, they did a researchproject. And they have been
doing this for quite a whilenow, I think I want to say maybe
10 years, and I just did apodcast with John Clifton as
(20:45):
well. He said that is 22findings in the 22 findings on
engagement, only 21% of peopleare engaged today at their
workplace. I found that sad, butat the same time, I do
(21:06):
understand why. Because there issome reasoning in that report.
But again, I find that really,really sad, and particularly in
the vertical, where you are, andwhat is so essential,
particularly after the pandemic,and what is in front of us
relative to all of that, thatengagement from both the folks
(21:29):
or from all the focus right, hasto be addressed. And so really
quite, quite a motivational andquite a passionate topic. So I'm
glad you have passion. And I'mlooking forward to additional
conversations on that. Now, astechnologists, as you said, Yes,
human humanizing change, and weneed to make sure that we engage
(21:53):
and make sure we have engagedfolks. What do you see in terms
of challenge across thehumanizing change, specifically
in health care? I mean, let mejust read really quickly, a
couple of things I experiencedrecently, my father in law, had
to be in a hospital the lastthree days for a surgery. And
(22:16):
that was a very pleasantengagement, because the people
there were extremely focused onlet's call it patient
experience, were two months ago,in a different hospital, the
experience was completelydifferent to different carriers,
or I don't know what the actuallanguages but to providers, I
think, is the right word, rightfrom both hospitals. One was
(22:39):
more. I don't know, just verydifferent. I don't want to go
into religion, because actually,one was a religious provider,
which was just a very pleasantexperience. What are some
challenges you see acrosshumanizing change within
healthcare?
Hazel Chappell (22:58):
That's a great question. And I can take it from
different angles, if I may. It'sfrom a business point of view,
and certainly within what Iwould call the senior management
and leadership suite, andspecifically within healthcare,
and I say that rather thanactually maybe more of the
(23:18):
Biomedicine or life sciencespart is actually the lack of
translation. And what do I meanby that when you actually take a
C suite, you have chief medicalofficer, you have Chief
Operating Officer, you havechief digital information
officer, so you've chief, youknow, Chief, CX, Chief of
(23:43):
chiefs, let's say. So withoutactually breaking that time,
you've technology ofoperational, you've, you know,
executive, and then of course,you've actually got the
clinicians in hand. And if youtake, for example, a topic like
cybersecurity, which I will addas well is not as prevalent, and
(24:07):
as regular on the agendas, as Iwould like to see. But that's
another area of passion for me.But when you take in somebody is
presenting that language to theboard. It is absolutely my
experience. And I'm veryconfident in saying that, that
the information that iscommunicated is not always
clear. I'm actually what does itmean by actually communicating
(24:29):
this information? And what isthe impact of that information
being communicated as well? Andthat is where that whether it is
actually we want we have adigital transformation program
that is starting up what doesthis look like? The need to have
somebody there translating andunderstand is absolutely
(24:51):
essential. And you know, I had agreat conversation with a leader
from the Department of Defenseyesterday and he absolutely
Nuclear agreed with me becauseeven from his world, and going
into commercial world as well,it is an area that, as I say, in
my opinion, is a key challenge.Also, as well that, you know, I
(25:14):
mentioned communications aswell, my experiences, what is
really communication look like?So if you take, I use the
analogy of cleanliness betweennaught and five, you have
somebody who thinks clean isgood, or two or three. And then
you have the other end of thescale five, which is perhaps
(25:34):
maybe a little bit OCD.Communication is like that as
well, though, when somebodythinks that communicate
effectively, actually isn't evermeasured how it's understood, or
is it expected that it isunderstood? And what does that
look like, within anorganization, I was brought in
(25:55):
to spearhead a failing programat one point. And one of the
first things that when I lookedat it was really, you know, and
you spoke earlier aboutworkforce not being engaged.
And, and it was really, becausethey didn't know what the
leadership were trying tocommunicate, they were only told
(26:16):
from their direct manager, thatthis is the instruction that
needs to be done. But having theoverarching vision and
objectives was was not veryclear. In terms of as well, I
was, you know, the hairs justwent up in my arms when you
said, I believe about thepatient experience. I'm a
(26:38):
patient as well. And I cancategorically say, that
irrespective of what providersystem, my goodness, it is
really, you know, sad actually,that how the patient walks in
the door. And the level ofinteraction is very, very
impersonal. And it really takesa variety of, I suppose people
(27:03):
to understand that everybody isa patient, there are global
leaders across the way who havecertainly transformed themselves
because of a loved one orexactly to your point that
you're able to now tell thestory around a family member
with a good or and thankfully,it was a very good experience.
(27:24):
And sometimes that can actuallybe the catalyst for leaders to
really become more empathic andhumble, irrespective of the
mentoring or coaching ortraining that they should be
getting. And my question is,well, why aren't you like that
to begin with, because we allwant to be treated as how we
would like to be treated, andhow we should be treating other
(27:47):
people in our everyday lives.You know, you mentioned
Eveline Oehrlich (27:52):
two key words, which are quite important. Of
course, one is communication.And I would add, actually
collaboration. And the second isempathy, as part of our work.
And as part of my work at theDevOps Institute, for the last
five years, we have looked atskills. And you know, of course,
we look at technical schools,and we look at classes, skills,
(28:15):
and framework skills, and allthose wonderful things. But we
also look at human skills, weused to call them soft skills.
But as you know, there's nothingsoft about soft skills, they're
really hard human skills arehard, and the top two must have
are communication andcollaboration, and then empathy.
But at the same time, whilethese are the top must have
(28:38):
skills, those are the biggestskill gaps across, wait about
3000 data data points this year,which to me, again, is for the
five years or five years, now wehave these two gaps, or there's
others. But these are two keygaps. And I do think your point
on leaders and leadership,understanding and having the
(29:03):
right perspective of what isnecessary, is something which
hopefully, we will see fromleaders in the future, in this
year and further on. We cannotcontinue this way. That's what I
would say.
Hazel Chappell (29:19):
And I would agree and if I can just pick you
up and drill down a little bitmore on that. So empathy to me
is around actually also havingthe emotional intelligence and
that to me is a very inherentskill or trait or personality
within somebody. Now, we can alllearn and we can read books and
(29:42):
understand it. But if I actuallytake as well, you know, the
book, what they don't teach youat Harvard Business, School, and
empathy and emotionalintelligence is one of those
things for me as well that whenyou take where certain
leadership are at a certain Ah,you know are our behaviors can
(30:02):
be a little bit, I suppose,solidified, that can be
ingrained on us. So suddenly tohave to turn and pivot to become
this empathic leader, and toactually become more humble, is
a big challenge and an uphillbattle for those leaders who are
currently in place. But it is, Itotally agree with you something
(30:23):
that has to happen to meet thedemands of the way that the
challenges that we'reencountering today, because our
Gen Z, and our, you know,millennials are coming in, and
they sometimes habit, so whetherit's through their dyslexia,
whether it's through who theyare, just as people are with
(30:44):
their global, you know,experience of becoming travelled
around and more knowledgeable,but actually, they become more
wise with that knowledge aswell, way ahead of our time.
That that is something that Isee is going to change a lot
further down the line. And Iknow that couldn't be perhaps a
contesting comment of mine.
Eveline Oehrlich (31:04):
And I see that with my daughters as well, as I
was said I was visiting withthem in the US with Christmas,
and both of them areprofessionals. One is an
architect. The other one is ananalyst for like, they say that
apple doesn't fall far from thetree. She's in service
management, actually. But Butboth have very different EQs
(31:25):
than what I would say I had whenI was their age, right, the 27
and 25. So absolutely, I thinkthe generational challenges
there will be will we who areI'm a baby boomer, can we learn?
Will we be open enough to adopt?I see that DevOps Institute as
well, we have many young folkswho I can learn from, and I
(31:46):
enjoy working with them, becauseI'm open, but not everybody can
be and will learn. And that getsme to another question. And I
know we are. This one is alittle bit around learning.
continuous learning is somethingwe talk a lot about, and a lot
of the HR or learning anddevelopment folks aware and
(32:08):
familiar with that. And in thislearning also is a key principle
within DevOps. Is that appliedwithin the healthcare industry?
Hazel Chappell (32:18):
Oh, my goodness, absolutely. Yes. And I would
actually say certainly withinbiomedicine and beyond as well,
why because it's bad stayingrelevant. There is so much
innovation, as we know, that'salready there, that's coming
down the stream as well. Andit's actually about, we need to
be prepared for the unexpected.So whether it is actually you
(32:42):
know, here in Austin as well,you've got the army futures
command, who are looking atinnovative ways of for out in,
you know, for the health oftheir soldiers out in the
warfield. And that is actuallyhappening within healthcare as
well. So even if you takediabetes, how it was treated
years ago, and where it is now,there is a need for clinical
(33:06):
continuous learning. But interms of businesses, well, you
know, I mentioned earlier aboutfew takasi, and workforce, and
how are we learning andadapting, you know, I was even
looking at the other day, the 20to 50 new buzzwords of 2020 3am.
(33:26):
I balk in one way, because insome cases, we have to use those
words in our daily deliveries orpresentations or whatever,
because other people will beusing them. But at the same
time, I'm a big fan of justkeeping it plain English. But
when we take, you know, webthree and Metaverse and
(33:50):
blockchain from a technologypoint of view, it is important
even for somebody like myself,who is not Well, shall we say,
let me put it the inverse. Thereare the technology experts out
there, there are the clinicalexperts out there. But it is
important that I have anunderstanding of what this is
about, to be able to do theadvisory and consulting as well,
(34:15):
you know, within the the area ofbusiness that I that I'm in. So
continuous learning as well,then from an individual point of
view view is always about beingself curious. You know, I have
actually created this diagramand this is purely from my
experience of gettingunexpectedly involved in
(34:37):
cybersecurity through anabsolutely awesome leader,
Charles Archer, and it wasactually the exposure to
cybersecurity, that helped to Isuppose, develop my curiosity
and in turn that motivated me.So when I look at that And then
(35:00):
the motivation continues mycuriosity to keep going and
become cyclical. So there, I'veapproached your questions from
different aspects. Butinherently, you know, I would
always encourage somebody tolearn continuously. And I guess
really, you know, an aberrationof mine is when people talk
(35:22):
about retiring or don't retire,or shall we say they step back
from their current job at acertain age, so nobody, I know
lots of people who never retire,continuous learning for them,
it's just, you know, it'sfantastic to actually see it in
the atrium for the health of themind, for actually, to my point
in staying relevant. So whetherit's technology, I've had the
(35:45):
opportunity to be involved in anabsolutely phenomenal effort
here within North Austin. Andit's about, you know, supporting
the age and the health andprevention of as well. So those
are different factors from ahealth point of view. And then
also as well, as I say,innovation is coming down the
(36:06):
line. So whether it is somethingfrom cell and gene therapy,
right through to twotechnologies. I will go back to
why I'm talking about continuouschange. It's not going to stop.
Eveline Oehrlich (36:20):
Yeah. So you said curiosity and excitement.
We do know and read about, youknow, quiet quitting, and
burnout and all of that. And Idon't want to belittle it,
because it's existing. But as wehave a lot of different
listeners from the digitalnatives, to Gen Z's to Baby
Boomers to maybe some folks whoare, as you said, stepping back,
(36:41):
I love that, because I don'treally like the word retirement,
I'll never will retire, I'lljust step back. But given that
there is also lots of curiosity,and you said you fell into the
cybersecurity because you werecurious, what would you advise
some of our listeners to thinkdo or take on to enter the
(37:01):
healthcare industry? Because thehealthcare industry vertical,
not just in the US, not just inEurope, across the globe, is
essential for all of us. Becauseas you said, we need healthy
people we need, we need ahealthy planet, but without
healthy people, we can't have ahealthy planet. So a couple
words for some advice, whatshould people think about when
(37:23):
they are due when they want toenter the healthcare industry?
Hazel Chappell (37:27):
So if I may ask you a question everlean. So that
I can answer your question morearticulately? Do you mean from a
technology point of view? Oractually from the care aspect?
Eveline Oehrlich (37:38):
Both actually technology? Of course, you know,
that's important. Like you said,cybersecurity, and whatever else
is in there. So maybe we gothere first. And then from the,
the, the other, the otherperspective, what type of
people? What do I need to thinkabout what skills should I have?
And how should I get in? WhatWhat should I learn? How should
(37:59):
I prepare? And yes,
Hazel Chappell (38:02):
so I guess contrary to what you might
think, I'm a great believer, I'mbeing cynical, but myself there.
I'm a great believer in talkingto people and seeking out the
right people who can give theirpoint of view. And, you know, I
have a daughter who's lucky nowto what area of her career is
(38:24):
she going to go in, and one canhave an inherent instinct of
maybe what good could look likeor what their skill set could
be, you know about, but it'salso in actually talking to
people and understanding, orsometimes unexpectedly, it's
having that experience that canreally just cement where their
(38:46):
area is about having theexperience, you know, this is
why they're interns out thereare internships I say, as well
to give that experience,volunteer some time, you know,
so whether it's first aid orwhether it is actually just I
you know, what can what can Ido? There was a point in my
career where I wasn't sure did Iactually want to go into
(39:10):
catering so I just literallytook I took a bone to Pro to
rang up the top hotels in Dublinand asked can I go and join in
their kitchens for a day, I waslucky that I was actually able
to join the executive chefs andone of Dublin's top hotel. And
to this day, if somebody gave meit to me as a present, it is the
(39:33):
most invaluable because I hadthe experience the understanding
and to really make thatdecision. So now cooking is my
passion rather than actually mymy my way of living. But so
that's what I would say justreach out to people don't be
afraid to, you know, the rightpeople will want to help and
(39:53):
actually support the youngerpeople coming about or whether
it is it's actually just acomplete change of career and
industry in some capacities,because now, a lot of days I see
for example, when I takeorganizations and look at their
cyber posture, you know, one onone, shall we say, it is
(40:15):
actually industry agnostic, itis using those commonalities.
And then actually, how can youmatch and transplant and
certainly my experiences, therewill be one person who you will
always remember their words andtheir sayings and maybe you
know, one day become theirmentor as well.
Eveline Oehrlich (40:35):
Beautiful. All right. I have one more question
for you completely different.You already mentioned something
you're doing for fun, which iscooking, but what else do you do
for fun Hazel?
Hazel Chappell (40:47):
Oh, wow. Now I have a big smile on my face. So
I it can be anything from half aday I flipped my daughter
because we literally and this isa very Irish saying when we're
together having fun, we can beto tittering twits to me
laughter is absolutely is youknow, raises the endorphins and
(41:11):
I am so so blessed that I getthat with my daughter so so
much. And when I have fun, am Ikind of need to, you know, I
suppose clear a few cobwebs. Ilove doing tennis. So to me
sport in any capacity, even ifyou're not sporty is good for
the mind and the soul. It can bevery relaxing as well. I'm a
(41:35):
little bit of a socialbutterfly, and it goes back to I
am very blessed to have goodpeople around me that yet again
and I'm unexpectedly findingmyself saying that laughter fun
humor is is how I expel anintern. Have fun. And also
(41:56):
remaining curious.
Eveline Oehrlich (41:58):
If you ever get close to Stuttgart Germany,
please ring me up. I'd love tohang out with you. I invite you
to come and we'll have fun andlaugh together. We have been
talking to Hazel Chapelle,global thought leader within the
healthcare industry. Hazel,thank you so much for joining me
(42:19):
today on humans of DevOps. Andfor our listeners humans of
DevOps podcast is produced byDevOps Institute. Our audio
production team includes JuliaPapp and Brendan Lay. I am the
Humans of DevOps PodcastExecutive roducer Eveline
Oehrlich. If you would like tojoin us on a podcast, please
contact us at Humans of DevOpspodcast at DevOps institute.com.
(42:43):
I'm Eveline Oehrlich talk to yousoon.
Narrator (42:49):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Humans of
DevOps Podcast. Don't forget tojoin our global community to get
access to even more greatresources like this. Until next
time, remember, you are part ofsomething bigger than yourself.
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