Jason Timpf is joined by Overtime Elite General Manager/Head of Basketball Damien Wilkins to break down OTE's top prospects in the 2024 NBA Draft. Jason and Damien discuss why Alex Sarr should be the first overall pick for the Atlanta Hawks to pair with Trae Young, the best fits for Rob Dillingham following his breakout season with Kentucky, and why Tyler Smith is set up to be one of the biggest steals of the draft! The guys also share their thoughts on player development in the US and whether international players have taken over the NBA with Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo, and Luka Doncic leading the charge.
4:30 - Overtime Elite's growth
11:00 - How OTE prepares prospects
14:00 - Why Alex Sarr should go No. 1
28:00 - Rob Dillingham's best fits
39:00 - How Rob grew at OTE
44:00 - Why Tyler Smith is Draft sleeper
55:00 - Have international players overtaken American players?
(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.)
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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co slash MMA. All right, welcome to hoops tonight. You're
at the volume. Happy Monday, everybody. Hope all of you
(01:48):
guys had a great weekend. Well, it is time to
shift our attention towards the NBA Draft, and we have
a very special guest today to get that process started.
We have Damien Wilkins, who is the general manager and
head of basketball over at the Overtime Elite, and he
also I'd be remiss if I didn't say, is also
a veteran of over five hundred NBA games. We have
(02:10):
two overtime Elite prospects that are projected to go in
the lottery, as well as a third who is expected
to go in the late first round. And so we're
going to dive into those guys, talk a little bit
about Overtime Elite in general and their role that they
play in basketball development. I'm very excited. It's going to
be a fun one. So, Damien, I was talking to
you before we went live here. So most of my
(02:33):
listeners know that we don't focus a ton on the
draft until the week of and we focus primarily just
on the NBA kind of flow of the season, and
so I don't think a ton of people are super
aware of the spot that Overtime Elite fills in this space.
And last year with the Thompson Twins, suddenly you guys
came to the forefront with these two awesome lottery prospects
(02:54):
that both project to be longtime pros that have enormously
high ceilings. So tell us a little bit of out
overtime Elite in the space that it fills in basketball development.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh man, So for us, like overtime Elite is pretty
much defined as a developmental program, a very accelerated development program.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You know, we have.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
We started out in year one with three teams in
our league, and then we went from year one to
year two and had six teams, and we just finished
year three, season three and we had eight teams in
our league. So we've grown every year that we've been
apart of been in this space. But for us, in
our hub in Atlanta, we have three teams. City Reapers,
(03:42):
RWE and the Cold Hearts are the name of our teams,
our brands.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
That's in house.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
We have five other teams outside of our market outside
of our Atlanta market, one in New York, one in Arizona,
one in California, and two in North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Which make up our eight team league.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Within our hub here in Atlanta, our three teams and
thirty three players that are here on campus in Atlanta.
Everything we do here is customizable, from the academic piece
to the strength and condition and piece, to the social
branding and marketing piece into the on court player development stuff.
It is customized to each individual player's needs and based
(04:25):
on their strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Where they are.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
We meet our guys where they are the minute they
walk into the door, and we try to create in
them when they leave to be what we call an ote.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Guide, and that's what that entails.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Is basically, we've already we've leveled them up from a
branding standpoint, right, We've got them tons of followers and
marketing and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
We've built their bodies up as much as we can
build them up based on their baseline when they were here,
and we've turned them into exceptional basketball players on the
court through our training and development program. Again that's customizable
to them. But more importantly, we try to send them
out of here professional and successful people which are much
(05:14):
more confident than they were when they came in here,
much more real round, well rounded when they came in here,
and just someone that can contribute to any organization, sports
or otherwise once they lead. That is our ultimate goal,
you know, so far from a basketball and development standpoint,
I think we've done that. Everything we do here again,
(05:35):
it is you know, individualized for each guy that we
have here, and we spend a lot of time on
the court. We have about three and a half to
four hours of academics every day and then the rest
of the time you're doing some type of training on
the court. If you're not doing any social or marketing
or branding things. So our guys days are full, and
(05:57):
it's challenging.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
It's an iron, rub and iron environment.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You know, You've got a lot of guys that come
here from their you know, respective high schools, and they
come into this environment and they're no longer the best
player in the building anymore. You know, you're standing next
to and competing with or against someone next to you
every day that's either better than you or just as good.
And you know, we put our guys through extensive just
(06:25):
basketball training, all the things to help them become the
most professional that they can become.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, you know, I've been really impressed, and I think
that there's no way to look at it as anything
other than an overwhelming success when you see how these
guys immediately translate into other environments, Like the Thompson twins
both come in and like just immediately buy into the
team concept, play their role, behave like professionals. Like even
like Rob Dillingham just going into Kentucky and immediately becoming
(06:51):
one of the best pick and role players in the country.
You know, Alex going over to the NBL and just
immediately functioning as a professional. And I think that that
speaks very highly to just the type of preparation you
were putting those guys through. You know, I was listening
to a podcast you did earlier this year with Kevin O'Connor,
and I remember you were talking a lot about the
weight room, and like, how much this is kind of
(07:14):
a little bit of a detour here, but how much
do you think the weight room factors in in young
player development? I find it to be super under emphasized
around the country, and I think that, like I think
you can tell just by your guys's prospects coming out,
they're more developed in that regard. You have to be
strong to play against grown men. Is that something you
guys emphasize heavily?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Oh yeah, we focus a lot on it.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Our guys lift, They lift four times a week, sometimes
five times a week, and sometimes guys live twice a day,
you know, depending on their needs. We try to stress
that A lot a lot of guys come in here
very foreign to the weight room. You know, those old
myths that people talk about how weights throw your shot
off and all of that crap.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Like coming here with all of those those excuses.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
But we have a bunch of professionals in our training
on our training staff that know better, and then we
have people that have you know, professional and high level
basketball experience that can speak to those things and have
these guys like call Bs on a lot of that stuff.
So we have a heavy emphasis on the weight room
(08:21):
and getting stronger and understanding that this is a grime man,
and like your body has to be mature and develop,
and then it's injury prevention, right like, because just having
a strong body helps all of those things. So there's
a heavy emphasis on strength and conditioning in our program
and our guys in the weight room every day.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, I got lucky because I was super skinny and
I had a stress fracture in my foot between my
first two seasons, and so for two months I had
no choice but to just lift, and I put on
like twenty pounds of muscle. And when I went into
the next season, I was like, oh my god, everything
is so much easier. Like it's crazy how much that
goes under the radar. I think it's such an important
part of development. So one last thing before we start
(09:02):
getting into the players, like talk a little bit about
the other benefits you provide for the players. Because I
was doing some research and it seems like you guys
have things set up where they can, like we saw
with Rob Dillingham, go to college if they're not ready
to do something professionally right away, or they have like
scholarship programs available for players who don't decide to go professional.
Talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Well, we in year one, our only option was to
provide guys with what we call professional contracts. And obviously
at that time in IO wasn't as prevalent or even
really talked about as much. I don't even think it
was a thing. And you know, but those guys had
to give up their college eligibility in order for.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
That to happen.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
After that year one, we were able to work with
the NCAA and come up with a scholarship option for
our guys. And now we steer guys pretty much away
from the pro contract thing. We want to provide optionality.
I think that's how biggest advantage that we have. And
then some guys, you know, they still come in and
(10:04):
bet on themselves and selves and it's hard for us
to argue with that.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It's hard for us to say no, don't do that.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
I mean, if that's what they want to do, that
they've discussed with their family, agents, advisors and all of
those things. Then who are we just stand in the
way of that. But you know, obviously there's rules right
for the CBA to collective bargains agreeing.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So a guy can come here like Sayer Rob.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Dillingham his senior year, he could have stayed if he
wanted to done a postgrad year here and then gone
to the draft after that, because that's just what the
rules are. We have that option for our guys. And
some guys that did a post grad year here and
still went to college, they just wanted to be better
prepared for that. A prime example of that would be
(10:49):
Trey Parker who just went to North Carolina State. So
we provide optionality for our guys. A guy like Alex
Aar and Tyler Smith and he Dona Monza. Those guys
came here on professional contracts, graduated, stayed here and then
went on to play in the G League for a
year to better prepare for what they're getting ready for now.
(11:10):
So there's a lot of different and Alex are again
he went to PURT playing Australia from here. So I
think for us, the flexibility and optionality again is something
that is that gives us a huge advantage in any
other place, anywhere else in this.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Space vital because this is the range of age, like
between sixteen and twenty, that's the range where basketball players
entire destiny is, like you never know what's going to happen,
so much can change in a year, you know, and
like you can go from being a guy who's a
fringe prospect to a bona fide lottery prospect or vice versa.
So it makes sense to have that flexibility there for them.
(11:49):
So all right, let's get into let's get into Alex
ar and Rob Dillingham, Tyler Smith, three really fun prospect
prospects in this year's draft. So Alex Aar is in
contention for the number one overall pick. Why do you
think he's deserving of that spot?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Well, a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Number one, I'll just say it, I think he's the
best prospect in the draft. His size, his versatility, just
the things he can do on both sides of the basketball.
And you know, the biggest thing I'd say is that
he has all the things that where the NBA is
trending right like he has that when min Yama Porzingi's
(12:30):
you know, type of game in that it's super versatile.
He has size, he can step out and shoot the three,
he can stretch the floor, he can run the floor,
he can post up. He's long, so he can defend
the rim. I just think he has all the tools
to be that. I think he is like the best
prospect in the draft and probably the person that has
the brightest future in the highest ceiling.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Rob.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
You know, I know you're not getting in the Rob yet,
but I think Rob is probably the best score and
probably well not even probably, I would I would adamantly
say he's the best. He's the most confident player in
the draft, a guy that can just score from anywhere
on the court and literally has the shortest term memory
of anyone that I've ever met in my life missing
(13:18):
the shot and there's almost like forgot about it. So though,
you know, those two guys in particular, just I don't
bring a ton of value to any organization that's going
to pick them. But Alex is, to me, without question,
that consensus number one pick, and I think he's the
best player in the draft.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Well, defensively, he's already awesome, and he projects to defend
really well in a bunch of key NBA coverages, and
as we know, like the ability to guard and pick
and roll is like absolutely vital in the NBA, just
because the level of guard play that we see. But
what's fascinating to me is there's so much discussion around
him on the offensive end, and like whether or not
he's going to be able to develop into what a
(13:54):
good enough offensive player to be able to play the
four potentially if that's what he has to play, depending
on what kind of team he ends up with. I
am more optimistic with him mainly just because, like you mentioned,
the direction of the game is going, like so many
more of these teams are running five out offense and
in the five out system, like ball handling, shooting just
in general, like the ability to read and react and
(14:15):
just to to oversimplify it, to walk and shoot gum
as a big is like so important in the modern
NBA because you're operating in space so much more, the
balls in your hands so much more, and so like
I actually view him as the kind of like quintessential
modern NBA five out big in the sense that he's
comfortable with the ball in his hands, he can run, dribble, handoffs,
(14:37):
he can keep it if he if it's the read there,
if his big guy's showing on the other end of
the DHO, he can keep the ball and go to
the basket. I think I liked some of the reps
he was getting in the NBL too, with Bryce Cotton
and getting short roll reps and making passing reads out
of that. Like to me like the offensive development piece
will come down to his shooting. But also it seems
(14:58):
to me by the numbers that he's been making year
over year improvements. So talk a little bit about Alex's work,
ethic and how and the stuff he's putting in behind
the scenes to improve as a shooter.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, he came here as a very young, skinny kid.
Once he got here with us and year one that
we were here, and it was just like you could
see that he had all the talent. They had, the tools,
he had, the foundation. It was there and his brother,
I think, Olivier, I think you can credit a lot of.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You know, what he is, what he does on the.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Court, those his demeanor, his his work, credit a lot
of that to him as well having him in his life.
But Alex had all the tools already. It was just
a matter of maturing from a physical standpoint, because you
knew that he would play three, four, maybe some five,
depending on you know, the team he went to, uh,
(15:50):
you know, the offense, the schemes, all of those things.
So he knew he had to get better and stronger.
So he started lifting twice a day. And then you
can tell throughout the season and throughout the time that
he was Once his body started to develop a little
more and he started to get stronger than his aggression
level got better, right, He started to attack the basketball,
He started to average more rebounds, he started to post
(16:12):
up a lot more. He started to be way more
physical on the just just the offensive end of the floor.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
He was always good defensively. He was always could move
his feet.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
In fact, we would put him on you know, the
Thompson Twins during you know, the times that they played
each other, even in the finals. You know that the
year he was here, he was the guy that took
on that matchup and did a great job at it.
So defensively, he was never really lacking. It was just
he just needed, you know, to get more physical, and
(16:41):
I think he did that once he started to lift
a little bit more and put his body, you know,
through the test of just trying to build that strength.
You know, one of the best decisions that he made,
quite frankly, was to go and test those things out
in Perth in Australia because it was something that he
probably felt like he needed.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And there's not a lot of us that would disagree
with that.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Like he wanted to see how ready that he could be,
and we were bringing in much younger guys.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
The year after that that that he left, so for.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
A lot of reasons, it made sense, right And then
I think he went there and still was able to
play extremely well, play extremely hard. You know, the physicality
caught up, the weight room stuff started to catch up
to him, and then like that was one of those tests,
to be honest with you, were like he knew that
he had to be physically strong to play with those
(17:35):
guys at their aggression level. So he met them there
and now you know, he's just going to continue to
work that way because he's just a workhorse. He comes
from a great family. You know, he appreciates every opportunity
to get better. You can throw constructive criticism his way
and it's never going to be something that he's going
to be upset with he takes it well and he
(17:56):
just he's a He's a tremendous kid. So I think
he's just gonna be a great asset to anyone who
picks him to be honest.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, not to harp on the weight room thing, but
there's another element to it too. It's like confidence, like
when you've been lifting and you walk in the gym,
you're like, yeah, I'm big, Like I can hang with
these guys. You know, like I could see that that's
what causes him to be more aggressive because it's like
you just you just feel like a bigger, stronger man.
It gives you the confidence to do that sort of thing. Yeah,
the offensive development piece is going to be interesting because
like what would be really fascinating is if he did
(18:25):
end up functioning more as a wing, like as a four,
and you put him next to more of like a
bruising center. Then like if it not only in switching
schemes where he's guarding guys on the perimeter. And I'm
glad you pointed out that him getting reps against the
Thompson Twins, because that's kind of the exciting thing with
him is like he can really slide his feet he
could slide his feat well and he's got good instincts
and he can obviously contest really well with his length.
(18:47):
But like putting him next to a big, bigger center too,
Like you can imagine him kind of functioning as the
low man and an NBA defense working along the baseline,
like grabbing defensive rebounds, helping him pick and roll, closing
out the shooters in the corner. Like that's a new
thing we've seen in the NBA. Giannis has been doing
this for the Bucks forever. It's like that defender that
can like that can block shots at the rim, but
also like get to the corner and kind of be
(19:09):
in two places at once. It allows you to load
up the strong side without leaving anything open. It's such
a valuable archetype of player, and that's kind of what
I see him being. But let's let's get Let's get
one last thing with Alex card before we move on.
Do you like his fit with Trey Young, Like if
Atlanta were to keep the number one overall pick and
take him, do you think he fits out well there
with him functioning more as like a pick and roll.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Big Yeah, I do. I like him functioning with Trey's
a great pick and roll player. So to put a
guy like Alex Saar with his versatility, being able to
stretch the floor, being able to roll if that pick
and roll is switched somehow from whoever's guarden trade, it
just creates so many mismatch on opportunity, right, And then
(19:52):
you know, having a guy like Clint Capella down there
to protect the rim, only to have Alex Sar also
helping you protect the rim, and that's just it's a
lot of rim protection and the pain for them for
a team that's not very very, very good on the
perimeter defensively, right, And I think that's just valuable. But
(20:13):
him and Trey Young together, like again, I think it's
just it speaks to the versatility of what you can
do with that pick and roll, all the creativity that
you can have off of that pick and roll, off
Alex is popping, if Trey is dragging his man out
of Alex rowling, that they decide to switch, because so
many teams switch pick and rolls, now someone's going to
have to help. So I just think with Alex's versatility
(20:35):
on the offensive end and the things that he's going
to become, what he's going to become offensively because you
can see it even when in women Yama, when he
like from game one to Game eighty two was a
total different Victor offensively, right, Like it was just a
matter of reps and confidence and just getting to know
the layer of the land in the NBA game. And
(20:56):
I think that is what Alex can be.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I think there's some cor Larry's two with Victor play
in a year professionally against men and coming over and
the same sort of thing with Alex that I think
will help. Let's move on to Rob so has this
(21:26):
super successful season at Kentucky. Like, I don't think people
realize like how rare it is to have a guard
be as efficient as he wasn't pick and roll, like,
especially at the college level, because there's a lot of
volume scoring guards at that level, but they're usually not
super efficient. But like, he just had an awesome season
at Kentucky. So, tell us a little bit about your
experience with Rob Dealingham and like, were you surprised by
(21:48):
his success at Kentucky at all?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
No, I was the biggest thing that surprised me was
how well he accepted his role coming off the bench.
Oh and and you know, I'm I think Cal Party
that was a genius by him to bring him off
the bench and allow Rob to be Rob.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
You know, he's not a guy.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
That he probably thought that like, he couldn't put him
in the starting lineup with all of that, right, and
he still be able to be him. But having a
guy like Rob be your first player off the bench,
that just it makes your team deeper, right, and you
know him and Ree Sheppard running that second second unit.
It's just it may be lethal actually surprising that they didn't,
(22:30):
you know, go further in the tournament.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That's a whole nother story.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
But dude from Oakland hitting all those threes.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I think he I think he was great. I think
when he came here, I don't know if Rob would
have accepted that role as well as he did had
he not come to Ote first, Like I just I
just don't know if.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
He would have.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
He may have, but I don't I don't think he
would have. And I think that speaks to the development
piece that we do here. And it's like we were
able to show Rob and kind of tame like the
inefficiency right and help him to be more efficient. And
then I think once he saw that, and once he
(23:15):
start believing that, then he just became a different animal.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Because you get a guy with that talent.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
That type of confidence, that type of shot making ability
to also now be efficient in that, then it just
makes you that much more dangerous. And I think that's
what he turned into at Kentucky. And then, like I
said earlier, he's probably the most confident player right now
in the draft, Like Rob probably feels like he's you know,
I'm sure he feels like he should go number one, right.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
That wouldn't not surprise me at all. So I'm very
happy and excited for him to.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, the role that he had at Kentucky is interesting
to me because ironically, the player that he reminds me
the most of when I watch him is Malik Monk
in the sense that is like it's a lot of
like start stop quickness, like really quick first step, deceptively
super explosive too. He's that doesn't quite have the length
that Malik had, but his play style kind of reminds
me a lot of him. And and we've seen Malik
turn into a super useful NBA player in a role
(24:13):
in Sacramento where he kind of functions as the sixth man,
but then will also close games of most of the time,
just simply because like that dual dribble penetration of of
dearon Fox and him just kind of makes everything work.
And I mean, we've seen there's no shame in that
type of role. I mean, just and his deal is
is viewed generally as a discount around the league, and
(24:35):
it's twenty million a year, you know what I mean.
So like that, there's there's real value in that type
of player. I think. I think one of the things too,
is just that I think there's it's rare to find
a combination of real downhill like beat people off the
dribble quickness and lethal pull up shooting. Like most of
the time you find one or the other, like this
dude's a great pull up shooter, but just can't really
(24:57):
beat people off the dribble, or this guy's great beating
people off the dribble, but he's gotta suspect jump shot.
And so that combination, I think those two things together
are are gonna be really valuable. And then also like
he was one of the deadliest spot up players in
the league last year, like that that guy attacking closeouts,
hitting threes off to move off to catch, Like he
just has a real like kind of microwave offensive potential.
(25:21):
And so let's just put it this way. Do you
see his role in the NBA as being like a
Malik Monk kind of like hybrid sixth man, fifth closer,
or do you do you think he has the potential
to play like a bigger role is more of like
a starting point guard for an NBA team.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
I think that depends on what team he goes to, right, Like,
It's just I've been hearing a lot about the Spurs
and and and that thing. You know, they have some
really good guards already there from what I watched this season.
But I think also Great Popovich would be tremendous for
Rob right because of his basketball mind and expertise and
(25:59):
just not overall dollars of the game.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I think Rob is more like you said that Malague.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Monk, you know, lou Will Jamal Crawford type of guy
who can be your immediate six man, like a fifth starter,
you know, a a sixth starter rather and then like
someone that can be in the game in the fourth
quarter to help close. Like he's just that good offensively.
I mean, you can't leave him open. You know, he's
(26:24):
not a liability on the offense. You know, he plays
out of pick and roll, he can handle the ball
with when the team is pressing up the court.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
He makes free throws late in the game. I mean,
I wouldn't have.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Him on the bench in the fourth quarter, like if
I was coaching the team, Like he certainly would be
a valuable asset to any team that.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
He goes to.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
But certainly that six man role, and and and again,
that sixth starter is someone to me who that's him,
That's who he is.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Well, and to your point, there's a reason why you
do that. It's it's because at the beginning of the game,
when let's say, like for let's just take the Kings
for example, like they're flowing through Sabonis and Fox and
you know, Keegan Murray and Kevin Herder and like the
generally speaking, it makes sense for Malik to come in
with that second unit and now he's running the show
and he's being super aggressive, and then you can make
(27:20):
a call at the end of the game if it
makes sense for him to be out there like that.
That legitimately is a very common NBA role at this point,
Like how you start a game and how you finish
a game are very different things. As far as the
Spurs fit goes, I find it super fascinating just because
like so like the downside, there's a couple downsides with Rob, right,
it's he's a little undersized, and then there's the talk
(27:40):
about his playmaking, which I want to get to in
a minute, but with his size. One of the things
with the NBA now is like a lot of the
defensive guard position is about chasing over the top of
screens and kind of just being a pest, which I
actually think he can do pretty well. And what's fascinating
about him with with when bin Yama is like to
your point, like when you have that kind of length
(28:02):
on the backside, it's like you were talking about the Hawks,
like they have this weak perimitive personnel, but they've got
what if they had like a too big look with
all the size on the backside, Like I think, I
think that a guy like Victor winbin Yama would give
Rob Dillingham the best opportunity to be a functional defender.
Because everyone talks about defense on an island. It's not
on an island. It's a five man job. And so
if you can create a role for him within a
(28:25):
five man defensive job, he can be successful. So do
you agree with me, do you think that Rob could
be a sex a successful defender at the NBA level?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I do.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
I mean, like, listen, he's gonna be tested, right because
every everyone is, especially a guy that's that's that that
with his size or lack thereof, like, he's.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Gonna be tested.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
He's gonna have to guard some of the most skilled
guards in the league, you know, because that's just what
he's going to fall into. And even if they're not
some of the top guards in the league, Like there's
not a guy in the NBA that playing major minutes.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
It's just a bad player.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Have to guard somebody like and even if even if
even if you're not even assigned to guard a guy
that gets the ball a lot, or a guy that's
known to make plays. For instance, if he's guarden one
night he has a guard, they put him on PJ.
Tucker to try to quote unquote hide him. And that's
no knock on PJ. They just people just don't run
plays for PJ. Right, So if you put him on,
(29:25):
say a PJ. Tucker, like those guards are gonna find you.
That coach for that team is gonna find you. They're
gonna run some sets to have PJ come set a
screen to make you switch on to you know, a
ball handling, you know, premier showcase guard.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Like that's just what it is. Is.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
However, if you have a guy like women Yana behind
you at the rim, like you have more confidence in
your ability to be able to just kind of pressure
the ball a little bit more knowing that he's your
security blanket, you know. And besides that, since we're talking Spurs,
like the Spurs have never been a horrible defensive team,
like they they play defense. The foundation of what they're
(30:03):
done and what they have been successful at is defense
in Baltimore, and so those two, you know, that's if
all those things are working well together, Like, he's not
gonna be a guy that just constantly getting picked on.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And even if he is.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Again, like you have a seven foot whatever unicorn standing
behind you at the rim, who who loves blocking shots
so and not many people challenge him.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
We saw that last year.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
So guys almost have a layup and just decided, now
I'm gonna just dribble this back out on the other side,
so I think he'll be fine in that system. I
think he'll be fine in any system. But I do
believe the team that drafts him has to have some
type of, you know, solid defensive foundation already, some guys
who can guard hands, some rim protection, because you're gonna
(30:50):
ask him to handle the ball a lot, you know,
and make plays offensively, you know. And he's not the
greatest defensive in the player in the world, but I
think he's he's good enough to be able to guard
guys in space and keep guys in front of him
for you know, more than three to four seconds.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
He's active, and he's quick, and so like there's the
ball pressure element, like when you when you when you're
pressure in the ball, the risk is dribble penetration, right,
but when you have victor behind you, you can kind
of account for that. And then the other thing too,
is like their scheme set up for this sort of thing,
like they couldn't do it with Luca. I found this
fascinating in the in the MAVs playoff run, because like
they couldn't hedge and recover with Luca because Luca was
too slow, right, So like the shooter would just get
(31:29):
open in that sort of action, right, So like, especially
in the Boston series, they were just cooking Luca by
putting him in space. But like Rob is fast, So
like Rob could throw a hedge and get back to
a shooter and throw a good clothes out, you know
what I mean. So like his quickness in his activity
I think will will allow him to be a functioning part. Again,
like to your point, never going to be like a lockdown,
(31:50):
you know, Premiere, Like that's his job is to be
a defensive player. No, But like can he be a
functioning part of an NBA defense? I think he's capable
of it. It's just gonna be a question of whether
or not can build that out. So last piece before
we move on to Tyler Smith. The second big kind
of like criticism with Rob was just his willingness to
function as a playmaker. And we saw a big leap
(32:12):
in that department as he went to Kentucky. Just his
willingness to put to make reads in ball screens, into
trust his teammates and things like that. How was that
part of his development when he was with Overtime Elite.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I mean, listen, there, some guys aren't built to pass.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
That's the truth.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Like I mean, like, like you don't Rob Dillingham in
to lead your team and assists, Like that's just that's
just not who he is.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
You know my.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Uncle, you know, right, Dominique Wilkins, he wasn't. They didn't
pay him to pass, like they didn't pay Michael Jordan
to lead the team and assists. It's just some guys
that just like even you you take even a elikue monk,
like he didn't. He's not getting a new seventy eight
(33:05):
million dollar contract right now because of his passion ability.
And I think like what we do too often is
we try to find things that we can criticize people
on and say, well, we want he's not a he's
not a playmaker.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
He doesn't.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
He doesn't get enough assists. But Rob makes the right
plays for Robin's also, like everyone knows who Rob is.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
He's a scoring guard, you know. I mean I don't,
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I haven't checked stats recently, But I don't know if
Steph Curry leaves the Golden State and assists and you know,
he's still a hell of a playmaker, right, I think
it's ray mind if anyone, Like I don't know for sure,
but I'd have to check it, but I mean, it's
just some guys.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Who, like you have to live with who they are.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
And hope that they get better as time goes on
at things that you want them to get better at.
Robins is going to always make the right play, But
Robin's also to be the first option in Rob's mind,
like he's.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Coming off a screen looking to score.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
And if you work with any trainers or basketball be
talked to any basketball players anywhere, Like the first thing
that people tell you in a pick and roll is, hey,
you're the first option. They go under that screen, that's
a shot they get trailing your screen, get downhill and
get to the basket if someone steps up past. Like,
(34:28):
mind you just in that thing that I just described
to you, the third thing I said was past you
know what? So like, it's not a lot of like
Rob is gonna be Rob. Rob is gonna make the
right play. He's gonna always read, make the right read,
and if someone is open, he's gonna give him the ball.
But in Rob's mind, and I think in anyone who
anyone who drafts him knows that in his mind, he's
(34:52):
the first option when he has the ball because that's
what you bring U Rob Dillingham in for. That's what
you bring a Jamal Crawford to your team for it.
That's what you bring a lot will to your team for.
Not them say that those guys don't ever pass ball,
because they did. However, they passed the ball when they
drew two people on them, right, like like you're supposed to.
(35:13):
You've done your job. I have two people on the ball,
now I can pass it. I did my job.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
If it's me and you and I'm coaching, I like
all three of those guys that I just main to
take the shot or to make the play.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, I have one hundred percent agree with you. Like
if your score or your score, that's that is an
important archetype of NBA player. Like I don't want Kevin
Durant to just go out there and try to be Lebron.
I don't want him to do that.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I want him to go out there.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
And shoot the damn basketball right and like, like, honestly,
the way you put it is perfect. It's more about
just making reads in the sense that like one of
the most common coverages we're seeing in the NBA now
is that high drop coverage where they bring the big
up to the level and they bring the low man over,
and so there's either a pocket pass or a skip pass.
And as long as he can get good at making
that specific read, then he can function and pick and
(35:58):
roll and find openings for himself. But THEO is like,
if you shoot forty four percent from three and you
get a look at it, we want you shooting the
damn ball. We want you shooting because that's worth more
points than us to driving and kicking to a lesser shooter,
like and that that you need that alpha dog confidence,
you need that unwavering faith in your game, and like, yeah,
I agree with you. There's a there's a mandatory minimum
(36:21):
amount of like being able to make the reads that
you have to have. But I want to score to
be a score, all right, So we're gonna we're gonna
move on to Tyler Smith. I find him to be
a super fascinating player because he's kind of like a
tweener in the sense that he's like he's kind of
like a little bit of an undersized big but he's
kind of like a bigger forward. But I he's got
like some legit face up games. He's good at, like
(36:42):
like understanding angles and the pivots to get like easy
hook shots and little finger rolls around the bass kind
of kind of reminds me of some of your face
up game back when you were playing too. To be honest,
but like, I find him to be a fascinating player
because in the modern NBA, like we talked about earlier,
you kind of have these two bigs that are fromntioning
is dribble handoff guys on both sides of the four.
You get a lot of switches, and having a big
(37:05):
guy that can like take a smaller player down to
the block and get a bucket is actually a huge
advantage in order to like it's a coverage beater. It's
a if you in a switch, if you have the
small guy guard go on to the screen, or you
need him to go get a bucket. And so tell
us a little bit about Tyler Smith and how you
see him functioning as an NBA player.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
I think Tyler can be just as good as Michael
Porter Jr. And I think he's a guy that can
play some small ball four. I think he can play
the three, and I also think depending on the matchup
that you can put him at too. He can handle
the ball. He can shoot the ball again. He's a
versatile guy who's just super long. He shoots the ball
(37:45):
at a hot clip, and he can make plays when
he has the ball, like he rebounds and pushes, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Not you can't just leave.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Him open to to, you know, to force him to misshots.
He's not going to do that very often. I thought
he's out the ball very well Big Nite on he
shot the ball extremely well and finished up here shooting
the ball very well before he left. But Tyler just
continues to get better. He's one of those guys too
that needed the weight room, and you can tell now
(38:16):
that since he's been getting in and out of the
weight rooms, his game is just kind of starting to
blossom a little bit and he's starting to find his
aggression level. Speaking of Sacramento, like that's the team I
like him to go to because I would love to
see him playing with those guys and and maybe him
sometime at the four with Sabonus at the Vibe. You know,
(38:36):
you got a guy who can bring those fours out
of the paint, but also athletic enough to run with
that team. Or you can bring him into the second
unit with a Eligue Monk and have him in elite
kind of just be the premier guys in that within
that offense. Like he's just a cerebral, versatile guy who
really is like a plug and play type of player
(38:57):
because he just has all the those things. He's a
jack of so many trades, and I don't I'm super
excited to see where he goes and lands because I
think he's one of the guys that I will call
the sleeper in the draft.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Well, that's the fun part about going in the late
first round is you're going to go to a more
developed team, like and you're gonna be given a small
role that you can achieve in. It's it's it's always
more fun to see that the draft prospects that kind
of get an opportunity to go somewhere where they're on
national TV more often and they're playing in bigger games,
and that's how you get you know, Keegan Murray and
and those guys getting those opportunities.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, speaking.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Like, I think this draft is full of those type
of guys. The Keegan Murray's, the Jaden you know McDaniels,
the PJ. Washington's of the world, the Derrick Whites, the
Drew Hollidays, like guys that can come in and like
the Medy and you know, guys who can help you
win big games, not just regular season games, but will
(39:54):
help you win big games. Like you saw that like
this these playoffs that would be just witnessed was it
was old players galore, like a lot of the stars
they showed up. But like really, like those guys are
just named the guys that was like helping teams win,
you know, big games. And I think that's what this
draft has a lot of. And I think that's what
(40:15):
in particular that Tyler Smith can be.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, this this draft doesn't have the major splashy like,
oh my gosh, that's one of the greatest prospects in
the history of basketball type of thing going on. But
to your point, like those those fringe guys, those guys
that just are really high level role players, they almost
always end up being swing factors, Like we see playoff
series swing on the third or fourth best player on
the team all the time. You know what I mean,
(40:40):
It's it's just so vitally important. I mean, you mentioned
Michael Porter Junior earlier. I root for the Lakers. I
got sick of watching him make every damn shot. He
took that damn series of the first round right up.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Why did so many people hate when he makes shots?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Oh my gosh, man, I was so annoyed when he
was missing against Minnesota. So I thought it was fascinating
because when I was watching the film on Tyler Smith,
he did he was getting pushed off his spot a
little bit. So he's been putting in a lot of
work behind the scenes to bulk up.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yes, he has has been in the weight room a
lot of things.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
That's been one of his biggest emphasis over the summer,
and I know it was when in his last year here,
you know, trying to be stronger, getting stronger, being able
to not being pushed off his spot when he's attacked
the basket, not being bumped off his drive, things of
that nature. Because he's gonna have to be a guy
who can score at four levels with his size, his versatility,
(41:38):
his footwork and handle. He's a guy that like they're
gonna rely on him. I believe people are going to
rely on him and asks of him to be able
to be a guy that can score the rim, scored
the free throw line, scoring the mid ranging post, and
then a shoot three. So the weight room is going
to be very vital to his development. I continue telling
(41:59):
him that I hope he's listening.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I heard you. For his sake. I think he'll get it.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
I believe so as well. And again, like his his
his archetype, which is kind of like that matchup attacking
forward that can also shoot the ball, I think is
one of the most valuable archetypes that we see around
the league right now. And I think that there's a
lot of opportunity for guys like him to make good
money in the league if they put the work in
behind the scenes. All right, before we get out of here,
(42:39):
I had talked to you before we started the show.
This is something that's been really fascinating to me over
the course the last couple of years. And you are
very deeply entrenched in player development here in the US,
and obviously you've worked with players from overseas as well.
But as we know, if we were ranking the top
players in the league right now, you're probably going Jokic one.
(42:59):
You're probably putting Luca up there, You're putting Giannis up there,
You're putting like the American guys that are up there
are like Tatum, You know, Anthony Edwards is on the rise,
but I'm not sure he's there yet. And then there's
this KD, Lebron Steph group which is kind of tailing out.
So let me just let's let's start here. Actually, do
you do you agree that the majority of the top
(43:21):
players in the league are from overseas or do you
think the American players are underrated right now?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
I mean, just if I think about, like who I
think the top players in the NBA are right now,
I mean, to me, Luca Is is arguably the best
player in the league, right like Joka follows by, you know,
i'd say Joka, but like that's two guys, you know.
And then like in no particular order, I gotta throw
(43:53):
Jaylen Brown in there, Anthony Edwards in there, I gotta
throw Lebron and they I gotta throw Stephan there. I
gotta throw KD in there, I gotta Devin Booker in there.
I gotta you know, throw I mean, shoot, you got
Yannis too, I mean, but he's not even like I mean,
I just I still think.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
You gotta go through us. But I do believe.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
That, you know, international basketball players have gotten exponentially better,
and quite frankly, like that has a lot to do
with how they've come up. Like Luca ben has been
a pro since he was fourteen, you know, and you
know he's been playing with grown men, you know, since
he was you know, before he could drive. And that
(44:38):
system that that that ecosystem that they're in and and
and the way that they go about doing it, it's
similar to how we do things here at OTE.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
It's basketball, basketball, basketball and everything else. You know.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
That's not to mention, that's not to say that all
the things that everything else are less important, right because
academics are important, right, Like those things are important.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
However, it's like let's be efficient with it. And I
think that's what we've done.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
We kind of you know, copy that model in a sense, right,
Like they're like, let's just cut out all the fluff,
focus on the most important things that are that everything else.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
But focus on basketball.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
You go to a regular high school here in America,
as you know, it's like you're in school for eight
hours a day. You're sitting in classes, and half of
those classes you're not even gonna need or use the
stuff from it, right, That's the first thing. And then
you know, you get out of school and you can't
use the gym because the volleyball team is it's their season,
(45:38):
you know, or wrestling or you know, cheerleading or whatever
the case may be. So you don't have access to
a gym. And by the time you do get access
to a gym, your brain is fried. And so it's
the mind in your body is just tired, so you
don't you may not work as hard that day as
you would in a normal day.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Where you have access to a gym.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Us we give our guys access us to a gym
until about midnight, and their focus is on basketball player development,
getting bigger, getting stronger, getting faster, all of those things.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Most of their day that's taken up of those things.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
So I think that international players, I don't think it's
that they just it's just more talent over there there.
It is a lot of talent internationally, and I respect
and appreciate that talent. But I also think they just
have a system that's caught up to us now because
they like that system. Now you're starting to see that
(46:34):
that system has worked. Right, Like Luca at fourteen wouldn't
have been Luca who he is now.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Him at fourteen.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
He just stayed in that type of system every day
those years prior to coming over here, and you're just
seeing the I guess, the benefits of that work that
he put in back then. Right, Like he was built
to play professional basketball. He was prepared for it at
(47:01):
such a young age. And I think that's the model
that we're using. We're preparing our guys to be leaps
and bounds above the rest of the guys that's coming
in even in college, Like you get twenty hours a
week or something like that prior to the season start.
We have no cap on, you know, the work or
the time that our guys can put in in our building. Right,
(47:22):
Like you can go it's like you're at twenty hours
by Wednesday, you know what I mean. So it's like
it's just a matter of the time that you get
to put in. Those guys aren't internationally just born right
Luka Donchets.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
They worked that. They work to become that.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Like obviously, yeah, God sprinkled a little extra on him.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
They worked to be that. Can you imagine Anthony Edwards.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
In HOTE system from the time that he was a freshman,
I mean, he was already a monster as a high
school player, whole body developed, super athletics, strong, super talented.
But you take all of that and you give our
system to that, and you mix his skill level with that,
I mean he would be leaps and bounds above how
(48:09):
good he is right now. So I just think it's
a matter of accessibility, and I think it's a matter
of just the opportunity and the time that you have
to work on your game. But the international game is
certainly on the way. I looked at the teams they
showed the graphic ESPN show the graphic of the teams
on social media, like the Olympic teams, and like, it's
(48:32):
so many NBA guys on different Olympic teams that it's like, shit,
like this is gonna be. It's gonna be, it's gonna
be tough, you know, Olympic run for our for our team.
But then I look at our.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Team and I'm like, our team is ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
The USA team is stacked, so it's like you have
to be all twelve of those guys, you know, whereas
Canada has three guys from the NBA, Like, of course
they probably have some other guys that are just are good.
I'm sure, but you know, in terms of pinnacle of basketball,
they have, you know, I think it's three guys like
(49:11):
you know, yeah, Shaye, you gotta Jamal Murray, Paul Murray,
you have RJ.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Barrett, Dylks, I think that Brooks.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
You know, four guys, Dylan Brooks.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
So that's four guys right who one of them is
want and a half superstars. You have Shae who come
on his way to being that, and then you know
Jamal Jamal Murray who is missed the playoffs. You know,
those are the two guys. They're they're NBA role players
and I have a ton of respect for both of
their games.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
But like our team.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Has twelve legitimate stars, you know what I mean, It's
like that's gonna be hard to be So I think
we we we're certainly right there, and I think I
think still in the conversations as the best. But the
international guys was certainly, you know, neck and neck with us,
(50:05):
and they figured out the platform to be able to
get themselves and make themselves, you know, extremely prepared for
NBA basketball.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Yeah, I think the I think there's still a massive
gap between the US and all of the other countries individually,
but I do think you could say us versus the
world has gotten close, if not the world has taken
over because of those.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Times that gap business wide anymore.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Yeah, And I'm actually really glad I asked you because
you brought up something that I hadn't even thought about,
which is just like availability of resources. Because I coach
at the high school level here in Tucson, getting the
gym is such a pain in the ass, Like just
getting access to the gym is such a pain, and
like most of the time I have to go up
there super early in the morning and ask the kids
to come in before school to get extra skill reps
(50:52):
in because you're fighting with the volleyball team or or
whoever it is. That's even the football team now in Arizona.
Because it's so hot here in Arizona, the football team
will use the gym for their walk through. I'm like,
what are we even doing here? These are basketball courts. Like,
so it's there's definitely something to be said about Luca
from age fourteen being in a professional program and just
like learning how to play as a professional through that
(51:14):
entire process, and it just accelerates the entire thing. And
I mean to put it even further, like I agree
with you in the sense that I think the US
is bad and hopefully over time Elite will help address
this problem. But like we're bad at like identifying who
our prodigies are and like pulling them out of that
stupid high school system and putting them into a more
(51:36):
defined professional basketball type of system. Because that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Too, not about the prospect here overseas internationally, it's about
the prospect, and it's about what's best for the prospect.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Here, it's about what's best.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
For the agent, the parent, the advisor, the coach, and
everyone that's around them right internationally is selfless.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
They're like, no, go represent us right here.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
We're like, no, I have to keep you with me
so I can get something out of that, like and
and too often that's I think that's what we do.
Like it's teams that we tried to schedule to play
us here at OTE that won't play us because their
coaches are saying to us, we can't bring our players
in you guys building, because they're gonna like it too
(52:23):
much and then we'll lose them. Well, you want the player,
what what is it, Matt? But it is better for
the kid exactly because I think I feel like if
Duke called said coach and said, hey, we have a
head coaching job for you right now, you can be
the head coach of Duke University, that coach wouldn't hesitate
(52:45):
to take that deal or take that offer. But that's
the thing we we We we act like as if
we own players here, like like, no, it's my player,
so he has to do everything with me so I
can get something out of it, as opposed to like
Lucas Slovenia, They're like, no, go represent us, Go be
(53:07):
the best player in the NBA. Go compete for that,
so we can be proud of that, right Like, And
it's it's that that's a that's a large piece to
it that I just never will be able to wrap
my hands around my son, for instance, right he's just
turned sixteen years old.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
The freshman he was.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
He's here at OTE and just finished up his first
year here though Toe and ended up being a starter
for half the season and all of the playoffs. Youngest
guy we've ever had start in Ote. Like I could
have easily been like, no, I want you to stay
in normal high school and be the man and get
all this notoriety and attention and all of that, but
(53:46):
like no, like let's let's delay all that. Do what's
best for you now. So then by the time, like
you can, you will get exponentially better here competing against
these guys every day, and then by the time you're
a senior, you know, the show could be yours. So
like that's the selflessness, right, It's like give up, give
up that instant thing with that big fish, small pond mentality,
(54:10):
and go be a part of something bigger that can
help you in turn be a whole.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Lot more better.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, and you got to learn how to play with
and against really good basketball players, and so like putting
them in an environment like that, that's the advantage with
Luca going and playing with pros at fourteen, like because
if you had to for me, like, I find it
fascinating because I think our skill development in the US
is great, Like we are obsessed with skill development. We
produce so many guys who can dribble and shoot at
(54:36):
a high level, but I think the ability to play
with people is lacking a little bit in our American
basketball player development because of that, Like guys run off
to their AAU team and average thirty five points a
game on twenty five shots a game, and they don't
know how to play alongside other really good players like
you have to. You have to be able to function
(54:57):
next to good players, because that's what Division one basketball
is like. That is what playing overseas is like. That
is what playing in the NBA is like. And I
could I could sit here and complain about AAU basketball
and different things like that all day long, but I'm
gonna I'm gonna save your time. Uh, Damien, I sincerely
appreciate you taking the time to come hang out with
us for a little bit. Is there anything else you
wanted to shout out before we got out of here today?
Speaker 3 (55:18):
No, just man, just excited for our guys alumni. That's
in a couple of days. I'm just super excited for
those guys and and and and looking forward to seeing
you know, where they go, you know, and how well
and just ready to go.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah, we're gonna know a lot more here in a
couple of days. It's I can't believe it's right around
the corner. Feels like the finals. Just end it all right,
That's all we have for today, Damian, thanks again for
coming to hang out. That's all we got. Guys. We're
gonna be back tomorrow morning with Sam Bassini from The
Athletic to look at the rest of the first round
of the NBA Draft. I will see you guys.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Then the volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
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co slash MMA. All right, welcome to hoops tonight. You're
at the volume. Happy Monday, everybody. Hope all of you
(01:48):
guys had a great weekend. Well, it is time to
shift our attention towards the NBA Draft, and we have
a very special guest today to get that process started.
We have Damien Wilkins, who is the general manager and
head of basketball over at the Overtime Elite, and he
also I'd be remiss if I didn't say, is also
a veteran of over five hundred NBA games. We have
(02:10):
two overtime Elite prospects that are projected to go in
the lottery, as well as a third who is expected
to go in the late first round. And so we're
going to dive into those guys, talk a little bit
about Overtime Elite in general and their role that they
play in basketball development. I'm very excited. It's going to
be a fun one. So, Damien, I was talking to
you before we went live here. So most of my
(02:33):
listeners know that we don't focus a ton on the
draft until the week of and we focus primarily just
on the NBA kind of flow of the season, and
so I don't think a ton of people are super
aware of the spot that Overtime Elite fills in this space.
And last year with the Thompson Twins, suddenly you guys
came to the forefront with these two awesome lottery prospects
(02:54):
that both project to be longtime pros that have enormously
high ceilings. So tell us a little bit of out
overtime Elite in the space that it fills in basketball development.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh man, So for us, like overtime Elite is pretty
much defined as a developmental program, a very accelerated development program.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You know, we have.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
We started out in year one with three teams in
our league, and then we went from year one to
year two and had six teams, and we just finished
year three, season three and we had eight teams in
our league. So we've grown every year that we've been
apart of been in this space. But for us, in
our hub in Atlanta, we have three teams. City Reapers,
(03:42):
RWE and the Cold Hearts are the name of our teams,
our brands.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
That's in house.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
We have five other teams outside of our market outside
of our Atlanta market, one in New York, one in Arizona,
one in California, and two in North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Which make up our eight team league.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Within our hub here in Atlanta, our three teams and
thirty three players that are here on campus in Atlanta.
Everything we do here is customizable, from the academic piece
to the strength and condition and piece, to the social
branding and marketing piece into the on court player development stuff.
It is customized to each individual player's needs and based
(04:25):
on their strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Where they are.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
We meet our guys where they are the minute they
walk into the door, and we try to create in
them when they leave to be what we call an ote.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Guide, and that's what that entails.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Is basically, we've already we've leveled them up from a
branding standpoint, right, We've got them tons of followers and
marketing and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
We've built their bodies up as much as we can
build them up based on their baseline when they were here,
and we've turned them into exceptional basketball players on the
court through our training and development program. Again that's customizable
to them. But more importantly, we try to send them
out of here professional and successful people which are much
(05:14):
more confident than they were when they came in here,
much more real round, well rounded when they came in here,
and just someone that can contribute to any organization, sports
or otherwise once they lead. That is our ultimate goal,
you know, so far from a basketball and development standpoint,
I think we've done that. Everything we do here again,
(05:35):
it is you know, individualized for each guy that we
have here, and we spend a lot of time on
the court. We have about three and a half to
four hours of academics every day and then the rest
of the time you're doing some type of training on
the court. If you're not doing any social or marketing
or branding things. So our guys days are full, and
(05:57):
it's challenging.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
It's an iron, rub and iron environment.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You know, You've got a lot of guys that come
here from their you know, respective high schools, and they
come into this environment and they're no longer the best
player in the building anymore. You know, you're standing next
to and competing with or against someone next to you
every day that's either better than you or just as good.
And you know, we put our guys through extensive just
(06:25):
basketball training, all the things to help them become the
most professional that they can become.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, you know, I've been really impressed, and I think
that there's no way to look at it as anything
other than an overwhelming success when you see how these
guys immediately translate into other environments, Like the Thompson twins
both come in and like just immediately buy into the
team concept, play their role, behave like professionals. Like even
like Rob Dillingham just going into Kentucky and immediately becoming
(06:51):
one of the best pick and role players in the country.
You know, Alex going over to the NBL and just
immediately functioning as a professional. And I think that that
speaks very highly to just the type of preparation you
were putting those guys through. You know, I was listening
to a podcast you did earlier this year with Kevin O'Connor,
and I remember you were talking a lot about the
weight room, and like, how much this is kind of
(07:14):
a little bit of a detour here, but how much
do you think the weight room factors in in young
player development? I find it to be super under emphasized
around the country, and I think that, like I think
you can tell just by your guys's prospects coming out,
they're more developed in that regard. You have to be
strong to play against grown men. Is that something you
guys emphasize heavily?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Oh yeah, we focus a lot on it.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Our guys lift, They lift four times a week, sometimes
five times a week, and sometimes guys live twice a day,
you know, depending on their needs. We try to stress
that A lot a lot of guys come in here
very foreign to the weight room. You know, those old
myths that people talk about how weights throw your shot
off and all of that crap.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Like coming here with all of those those excuses.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
But we have a bunch of professionals in our training
on our training staff that know better, and then we
have people that have you know, professional and high level
basketball experience that can speak to those things and have
these guys like call Bs on a lot of that stuff.
So we have a heavy emphasis on the weight room
(08:21):
and getting stronger and understanding that this is a grime man,
and like your body has to be mature and develop,
and then it's injury prevention, right like, because just having
a strong body helps all of those things. So there's
a heavy emphasis on strength and conditioning in our program
and our guys in the weight room every day.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, I got lucky because I was super skinny and
I had a stress fracture in my foot between my
first two seasons, and so for two months I had
no choice but to just lift, and I put on
like twenty pounds of muscle. And when I went into
the next season, I was like, oh my god, everything
is so much easier. Like it's crazy how much that
goes under the radar. I think it's such an important
part of development. So one last thing before we start
(09:02):
getting into the players, like talk a little bit about
the other benefits you provide for the players. Because I
was doing some research and it seems like you guys
have things set up where they can, like we saw
with Rob Dillingham, go to college if they're not ready
to do something professionally right away, or they have like
scholarship programs available for players who don't decide to go professional.
Talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Well, we in year one, our only option was to
provide guys with what we call professional contracts. And obviously
at that time in IO wasn't as prevalent or even
really talked about as much. I don't even think it
was a thing. And you know, but those guys had
to give up their college eligibility in order for.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
That to happen.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
After that year one, we were able to work with
the NCAA and come up with a scholarship option for
our guys. And now we steer guys pretty much away
from the pro contract thing. We want to provide optionality.
I think that's how biggest advantage that we have. And
then some guys, you know, they still come in and
(10:04):
bet on themselves and selves and it's hard for us
to argue with that.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It's hard for us to say no, don't do that.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
I mean, if that's what they want to do, that
they've discussed with their family, agents, advisors and all of
those things. Then who are we just stand in the
way of that. But you know, obviously there's rules right
for the CBA to collective bargains agreeing.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So a guy can come here like Sayer Rob.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Dillingham his senior year, he could have stayed if he
wanted to done a postgrad year here and then gone
to the draft after that, because that's just what the
rules are. We have that option for our guys. And
some guys that did a post grad year here and
still went to college, they just wanted to be better
prepared for that. A prime example of that would be
(10:49):
Trey Parker who just went to North Carolina State. So
we provide optionality for our guys. A guy like Alex
Aar and Tyler Smith and he Dona Monza. Those guys
came here on professional contracts, graduated, stayed here and then
went on to play in the G League for a
year to better prepare for what they're getting ready for now.
(11:10):
So there's a lot of different and Alex are again
he went to PURT playing Australia from here. So I
think for us, the flexibility and optionality again is something
that is that gives us a huge advantage in any
other place, anywhere else in this.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Space vital because this is the range of age, like
between sixteen and twenty, that's the range where basketball players
entire destiny is, like you never know what's going to happen,
so much can change in a year, you know, and
like you can go from being a guy who's a
fringe prospect to a bona fide lottery prospect or vice versa.
So it makes sense to have that flexibility there for them.
(11:49):
So all right, let's get into let's get into Alex
ar and Rob Dillingham, Tyler Smith, three really fun prospect
prospects in this year's draft. So Alex Aar is in
contention for the number one overall pick. Why do you
think he's deserving of that spot?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Well, a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Number one, I'll just say it, I think he's the
best prospect in the draft. His size, his versatility, just
the things he can do on both sides of the basketball.
And you know, the biggest thing I'd say is that
he has all the things that where the NBA is
trending right like he has that when min Yama Porzingi's
(12:30):
you know, type of game in that it's super versatile.
He has size, he can step out and shoot the three,
he can stretch the floor, he can run the floor,
he can post up. He's long, so he can defend
the rim. I just think he has all the tools
to be that. I think he is like the best
prospect in the draft and probably the person that has
the brightest future in the highest ceiling.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Rob.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
You know, I know you're not getting in the Rob yet,
but I think Rob is probably the best score and
probably well not even probably, I would I would adamantly
say he's the best. He's the most confident player in
the draft, a guy that can just score from anywhere
on the court and literally has the shortest term memory
of anyone that I've ever met in my life missing
(13:18):
the shot and there's almost like forgot about it. So though,
you know, those two guys in particular, just I don't
bring a ton of value to any organization that's going
to pick them. But Alex is, to me, without question,
that consensus number one pick, and I think he's the
best player in the draft.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Well, defensively, he's already awesome, and he projects to defend
really well in a bunch of key NBA coverages, and
as we know, like the ability to guard and pick
and roll is like absolutely vital in the NBA, just
because the level of guard play that we see. But
what's fascinating to me is there's so much discussion around
him on the offensive end, and like whether or not
he's going to be able to develop into what a
(13:54):
good enough offensive player to be able to play the
four potentially if that's what he has to play, depending
on what kind of team he ends up with. I
am more optimistic with him mainly just because, like you mentioned,
the direction of the game is going, like so many
more of these teams are running five out offense and
in the five out system, like ball handling, shooting just
in general, like the ability to read and react and
(14:15):
just to to oversimplify it, to walk and shoot gum
as a big is like so important in the modern
NBA because you're operating in space so much more, the
balls in your hands so much more, and so like
I actually view him as the kind of like quintessential
modern NBA five out big in the sense that he's
comfortable with the ball in his hands, he can run, dribble, handoffs,
(14:37):
he can keep it if he if it's the read there,
if his big guy's showing on the other end of
the DHO, he can keep the ball and go to
the basket. I think I liked some of the reps
he was getting in the NBL too, with Bryce Cotton
and getting short roll reps and making passing reads out
of that. Like to me like the offensive development piece
will come down to his shooting. But also it seems
(14:58):
to me by the numbers that he's been making year
over year improvements. So talk a little bit about Alex's work,
ethic and how and the stuff he's putting in behind
the scenes to improve as a shooter.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, he came here as a very young, skinny kid.
Once he got here with us and year one that
we were here, and it was just like you could
see that he had all the talent. They had, the tools,
he had, the foundation. It was there and his brother,
I think, Olivier, I think you can credit a lot of.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You know, what he is, what he does on the.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Court, those his demeanor, his his work, credit a lot
of that to him as well having him in his life.
But Alex had all the tools already. It was just
a matter of maturing from a physical standpoint, because you
knew that he would play three, four, maybe some five,
depending on you know, the team he went to, uh,
(15:50):
you know, the offense, the schemes, all of those things.
So he knew he had to get better and stronger.
So he started lifting twice a day. And then you
can tell throughout the season and throughout the time that
he was Once his body started to develop a little
more and he started to get stronger than his aggression
level got better, right, He started to attack the basketball,
He started to average more rebounds, he started to post
(16:12):
up a lot more. He started to be way more
physical on the just just the offensive end of the floor.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
He was always good defensively. He was always could move
his feet.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
In fact, we would put him on you know, the
Thompson Twins during you know, the times that they played
each other, even in the finals. You know that the
year he was here, he was the guy that took
on that matchup and did a great job at it.
So defensively, he was never really lacking. It was just
he just needed, you know, to get more physical, and
(16:41):
I think he did that once he started to lift
a little bit more and put his body, you know,
through the test of just trying to build that strength.
You know, one of the best decisions that he made,
quite frankly, was to go and test those things out
in Perth in Australia because it was something that he
probably felt like he needed.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And there's not a lot of us that would disagree
with that.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Like he wanted to see how ready that he could be,
and we were bringing in much younger guys.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
The year after that that that he left, so for.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
A lot of reasons, it made sense, right And then
I think he went there and still was able to
play extremely well, play extremely hard. You know, the physicality
caught up, the weight room stuff started to catch up
to him, and then like that was one of those tests,
to be honest with you, were like he knew that
he had to be physically strong to play with those
(17:35):
guys at their aggression level. So he met them there
and now you know, he's just going to continue to
work that way because he's just a workhorse. He comes
from a great family. You know, he appreciates every opportunity
to get better. You can throw constructive criticism his way
and it's never going to be something that he's going
to be upset with he takes it well and he
(17:56):
just he's a He's a tremendous kid. So I think
he's just gonna be a great asset to anyone who
picks him to be honest.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, not to harp on the weight room thing, but
there's another element to it too. It's like confidence, like
when you've been lifting and you walk in the gym,
you're like, yeah, I'm big, Like I can hang with
these guys. You know, like I could see that that's
what causes him to be more aggressive because it's like
you just you just feel like a bigger, stronger man.
It gives you the confidence to do that sort of thing. Yeah,
the offensive development piece is going to be interesting because
like what would be really fascinating is if he did
(18:25):
end up functioning more as a wing, like as a four,
and you put him next to more of like a
bruising center. Then like if it not only in switching
schemes where he's guarding guys on the perimeter. And I'm
glad you pointed out that him getting reps against the
Thompson Twins, because that's kind of the exciting thing with
him is like he can really slide his feet he
could slide his feat well and he's got good instincts
and he can obviously contest really well with his length.
(18:47):
But like putting him next to a big, bigger center too,
Like you can imagine him kind of functioning as the
low man and an NBA defense working along the baseline,
like grabbing defensive rebounds, helping him pick and roll, closing
out the shooters in the corner. Like that's a new
thing we've seen in the NBA. Giannis has been doing
this for the Bucks forever. It's like that defender that
can like that can block shots at the rim, but
also like get to the corner and kind of be
(19:09):
in two places at once. It allows you to load
up the strong side without leaving anything open. It's such
a valuable archetype of player, and that's kind of what
I see him being. But let's let's get Let's get
one last thing with Alex card before we move on.
Do you like his fit with Trey Young, Like if
Atlanta were to keep the number one overall pick and
take him, do you think he fits out well there
with him functioning more as like a pick and roll.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Big Yeah, I do. I like him functioning with Trey's
a great pick and roll player. So to put a
guy like Alex Saar with his versatility, being able to
stretch the floor, being able to roll if that pick
and roll is switched somehow from whoever's guarden trade, it
just creates so many mismatch on opportunity, right, And then
(19:52):
you know, having a guy like Clint Capella down there
to protect the rim, only to have Alex Sar also
helping you protect the rim, and that's just it's a
lot of rim protection and the pain for them for
a team that's not very very, very good on the
perimeter defensively, right, And I think that's just valuable. But
(20:13):
him and Trey Young together, like again, I think it's
just it speaks to the versatility of what you can
do with that pick and roll, all the creativity that
you can have off of that pick and roll, off
Alex is popping, if Trey is dragging his man out
of Alex rowling, that they decide to switch, because so
many teams switch pick and rolls, now someone's going to
have to help. So I just think with Alex's versatility
(20:35):
on the offensive end and the things that he's going
to become, what he's going to become offensively because you
can see it even when in women Yama, when he
like from game one to Game eighty two was a
total different Victor offensively, right, Like it was just a
matter of reps and confidence and just getting to know
the layer of the land in the NBA game. And
(20:56):
I think that is what Alex can be.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I think there's some cor Larry's two with Victor play
in a year professionally against men and coming over and
the same sort of thing with Alex that I think
will help. Let's move on to Rob so has this
(21:26):
super successful season at Kentucky. Like, I don't think people
realize like how rare it is to have a guard
be as efficient as he wasn't pick and roll, like,
especially at the college level, because there's a lot of
volume scoring guards at that level, but they're usually not
super efficient. But like, he just had an awesome season
at Kentucky. So, tell us a little bit about your
experience with Rob Dealingham and like, were you surprised by
(21:48):
his success at Kentucky at all?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
No, I was the biggest thing that surprised me was
how well he accepted his role coming off the bench.
Oh and and you know, I'm I think Cal Party
that was a genius by him to bring him off
the bench and allow Rob to be Rob.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
You know, he's not a guy.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
That he probably thought that like, he couldn't put him
in the starting lineup with all of that, right, and
he still be able to be him. But having a
guy like Rob be your first player off the bench,
that just it makes your team deeper, right, and you
know him and Ree Sheppard running that second second unit.
It's just it may be lethal actually surprising that they didn't,
(22:30):
you know, go further in the tournament.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That's a whole nother story.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
But dude from Oakland hitting all those threes.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I think he I think he was great. I think
when he came here, I don't know if Rob would
have accepted that role as well as he did had
he not come to Ote first, Like I just I
just don't know if.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
He would have.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
He may have, but I don't I don't think he
would have. And I think that speaks to the development
piece that we do here. And it's like we were
able to show Rob and kind of tame like the
inefficiency right and help him to be more efficient. And
then I think once he saw that, and once he
(23:15):
start believing that, then he just became a different animal.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Because you get a guy with that talent.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
That type of confidence, that type of shot making ability
to also now be efficient in that, then it just
makes you that much more dangerous. And I think that's
what he turned into at Kentucky. And then, like I
said earlier, he's probably the most confident player right now
in the draft, Like Rob probably feels like he's you know,
I'm sure he feels like he should go number one, right.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
That wouldn't not surprise me at all. So I'm very
happy and excited for him to.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, the role that he had at Kentucky is interesting
to me because ironically, the player that he reminds me
the most of when I watch him is Malik Monk
in the sense that is like it's a lot of
like start stop quickness, like really quick first step, deceptively
super explosive too. He's that doesn't quite have the length
that Malik had, but his play style kind of reminds
me a lot of him. And and we've seen Malik
turn into a super useful NBA player in a role
(24:13):
in Sacramento where he kind of functions as the sixth man,
but then will also close games of most of the time,
just simply because like that dual dribble penetration of of
dearon Fox and him just kind of makes everything work.
And I mean, we've seen there's no shame in that
type of role. I mean, just and his deal is
is viewed generally as a discount around the league, and
(24:35):
it's twenty million a year, you know what I mean.
So like that, there's there's real value in that type
of player. I think. I think one of the things too,
is just that I think there's it's rare to find
a combination of real downhill like beat people off the
dribble quickness and lethal pull up shooting. Like most of
the time you find one or the other, like this
dude's a great pull up shooter, but just can't really
(24:57):
beat people off the dribble, or this guy's great beating
people off the dribble, but he's gotta suspect jump shot.
And so that combination, I think those two things together
are are gonna be really valuable. And then also like
he was one of the deadliest spot up players in
the league last year, like that that guy attacking closeouts,
hitting threes off to move off to catch, Like he
just has a real like kind of microwave offensive potential.
(25:21):
And so let's just put it this way. Do you
see his role in the NBA as being like a
Malik Monk kind of like hybrid sixth man, fifth closer,
or do you do you think he has the potential
to play like a bigger role is more of like
a starting point guard for an NBA team.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
I think that depends on what team he goes to, right, Like,
It's just I've been hearing a lot about the Spurs
and and and that thing. You know, they have some
really good guards already there from what I watched this season.
But I think also Great Popovich would be tremendous for
Rob right because of his basketball mind and expertise and
(25:59):
just not overall dollars of the game.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I think Rob is more like you said that Malague.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Monk, you know, lou Will Jamal Crawford type of guy
who can be your immediate six man, like a fifth starter,
you know, a a sixth starter rather and then like
someone that can be in the game in the fourth
quarter to help close. Like he's just that good offensively.
I mean, you can't leave him open. You know, he's
(26:24):
not a liability on the offense. You know, he plays
out of pick and roll, he can handle the ball
with when the team is pressing up the court.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
He makes free throws late in the game. I mean,
I wouldn't have.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Him on the bench in the fourth quarter, like if
I was coaching the team, Like he certainly would be
a valuable asset to any team that.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
He goes to.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
But certainly that six man role, and and and again,
that sixth starter is someone to me who that's him,
That's who he is.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Well, and to your point, there's a reason why you
do that. It's it's because at the beginning of the game,
when let's say, like for let's just take the Kings
for example, like they're flowing through Sabonis and Fox and
you know, Keegan Murray and Kevin Herder and like the
generally speaking, it makes sense for Malik to come in
with that second unit and now he's running the show
and he's being super aggressive, and then you can make
(27:20):
a call at the end of the game if it
makes sense for him to be out there like that.
That legitimately is a very common NBA role at this point,
Like how you start a game and how you finish
a game are very different things. As far as the
Spurs fit goes, I find it super fascinating just because
like so like the downside, there's a couple downsides with Rob, right,
it's he's a little undersized, and then there's the talk
(27:40):
about his playmaking, which I want to get to in
a minute, but with his size. One of the things
with the NBA now is like a lot of the
defensive guard position is about chasing over the top of
screens and kind of just being a pest, which I
actually think he can do pretty well. And what's fascinating
about him with with when bin Yama is like to
your point, like when you have that kind of length
(28:02):
on the backside, it's like you were talking about the Hawks,
like they have this weak perimitive personnel, but they've got
what if they had like a too big look with
all the size on the backside, Like I think, I
think that a guy like Victor winbin Yama would give
Rob Dillingham the best opportunity to be a functional defender.
Because everyone talks about defense on an island. It's not
on an island. It's a five man job. And so
if you can create a role for him within a
(28:25):
five man defensive job, he can be successful. So do
you agree with me, do you think that Rob could
be a sex a successful defender at the NBA level?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I do.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
I mean, like, listen, he's gonna be tested, right because
every everyone is, especially a guy that's that's that that
with his size or lack thereof, like, he's.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Gonna be tested.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
He's gonna have to guard some of the most skilled
guards in the league, you know, because that's just what
he's going to fall into. And even if they're not
some of the top guards in the league, Like there's
not a guy in the NBA that playing major minutes.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
It's just a bad player.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Have to guard somebody like and even if even if
even if you're not even assigned to guard a guy
that gets the ball a lot, or a guy that's
known to make plays. For instance, if he's guarden one
night he has a guard, they put him on PJ.
Tucker to try to quote unquote hide him. And that's
no knock on PJ. They just people just don't run
plays for PJ. Right, So if you put him on,
(29:25):
say a PJ. Tucker, like those guards are gonna find you.
That coach for that team is gonna find you. They're
gonna run some sets to have PJ come set a
screen to make you switch on to you know, a
ball handling, you know, premier showcase guard.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Like that's just what it is. Is.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
However, if you have a guy like women Yana behind
you at the rim, like you have more confidence in
your ability to be able to just kind of pressure
the ball a little bit more knowing that he's your
security blanket, you know. And besides that, since we're talking Spurs,
like the Spurs have never been a horrible defensive team,
like they they play defense. The foundation of what they're
(30:03):
done and what they have been successful at is defense
in Baltimore, and so those two, you know, that's if
all those things are working well together, Like, he's not
gonna be a guy that just constantly getting picked on.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And even if he is.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Again, like you have a seven foot whatever unicorn standing
behind you at the rim, who who loves blocking shots
so and not many people challenge him.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
We saw that last year.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
So guys almost have a layup and just decided, now
I'm gonna just dribble this back out on the other side,
so I think he'll be fine in that system. I
think he'll be fine in any system. But I do
believe the team that drafts him has to have some
type of, you know, solid defensive foundation already, some guys
who can guard hands, some rim protection, because you're gonna
(30:50):
ask him to handle the ball a lot, you know,
and make plays offensively, you know. And he's not the
greatest defensive in the player in the world, but I
think he's he's good enough to be able to guard
guys in space and keep guys in front of him
for you know, more than three to four seconds.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
He's active, and he's quick, and so like there's the
ball pressure element, like when you when you when you're
pressure in the ball, the risk is dribble penetration, right,
but when you have victor behind you, you can kind
of account for that. And then the other thing too,
is like their scheme set up for this sort of thing,
like they couldn't do it with Luca. I found this
fascinating in the in the MAVs playoff run, because like
they couldn't hedge and recover with Luca because Luca was
too slow, right, So like the shooter would just get
(31:29):
open in that sort of action, right, So like, especially
in the Boston series, they were just cooking Luca by
putting him in space. But like Rob is fast, So
like Rob could throw a hedge and get back to
a shooter and throw a good clothes out, you know
what I mean. So like his quickness in his activity
I think will will allow him to be a functioning part. Again,
like to your point, never going to be like a lockdown,
(31:50):
you know, Premiere, Like that's his job is to be
a defensive player. No, But like can he be a
functioning part of an NBA defense? I think he's capable
of it. It's just gonna be a question of whether
or not can build that out. So last piece before
we move on to Tyler Smith. The second big kind
of like criticism with Rob was just his willingness to
function as a playmaker. And we saw a big leap
(32:12):
in that department as he went to Kentucky. Just his
willingness to put to make reads in ball screens, into
trust his teammates and things like that. How was that
part of his development when he was with Overtime Elite.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I mean, listen, there, some guys aren't built to pass.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
That's the truth.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Like I mean, like, like you don't Rob Dillingham in
to lead your team and assists, Like that's just that's
just not who he is.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
You know my.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Uncle, you know, right, Dominique Wilkins, he wasn't. They didn't
pay him to pass, like they didn't pay Michael Jordan
to lead the team and assists. It's just some guys
that just like even you you take even a elikue monk,
like he didn't. He's not getting a new seventy eight
(33:05):
million dollar contract right now because of his passion ability.
And I think like what we do too often is
we try to find things that we can criticize people
on and say, well, we want he's not a he's
not a playmaker.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
He doesn't.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
He doesn't get enough assists. But Rob makes the right
plays for Robin's also, like everyone knows who Rob is.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
He's a scoring guard, you know. I mean I don't,
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I haven't checked stats recently, But I don't know if
Steph Curry leaves the Golden State and assists and you know,
he's still a hell of a playmaker, right, I think
it's ray mind if anyone, Like I don't know for sure,
but I'd have to check it, but I mean, it's
just some guys.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Who, like you have to live with who they are.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
And hope that they get better as time goes on
at things that you want them to get better at.
Robins is going to always make the right play, But
Robin's also to be the first option in Rob's mind,
like he's.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Coming off a screen looking to score.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
And if you work with any trainers or basketball be
talked to any basketball players anywhere, Like the first thing
that people tell you in a pick and roll is, hey,
you're the first option. They go under that screen, that's
a shot they get trailing your screen, get downhill and
get to the basket if someone steps up past. Like,
(34:28):
mind you just in that thing that I just described
to you, the third thing I said was past you
know what? So like, it's not a lot of like
Rob is gonna be Rob. Rob is gonna make the
right play. He's gonna always read, make the right read,
and if someone is open, he's gonna give him the ball.
But in Rob's mind, and I think in anyone who
anyone who drafts him knows that in his mind, he's
(34:52):
the first option when he has the ball because that's
what you bring U Rob Dillingham in for. That's what
you bring a Jamal Crawford to your team for it.
That's what you bring a lot will to your team for.
Not them say that those guys don't ever pass ball,
because they did. However, they passed the ball when they
drew two people on them, right, like like you're supposed to.
(35:13):
You've done your job. I have two people on the ball,
now I can pass it. I did my job.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
If it's me and you and I'm coaching, I like
all three of those guys that I just main to
take the shot or to make the play.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, I have one hundred percent agree with you. Like
if your score or your score, that's that is an
important archetype of NBA player. Like I don't want Kevin
Durant to just go out there and try to be Lebron.
I don't want him to do that.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I want him to go out there.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
And shoot the damn basketball right and like, like, honestly,
the way you put it is perfect. It's more about
just making reads in the sense that like one of
the most common coverages we're seeing in the NBA now
is that high drop coverage where they bring the big
up to the level and they bring the low man over,
and so there's either a pocket pass or a skip pass.
And as long as he can get good at making
that specific read, then he can function and pick and
(35:58):
roll and find openings for himself. But THEO is like,
if you shoot forty four percent from three and you
get a look at it, we want you shooting the
damn ball. We want you shooting because that's worth more
points than us to driving and kicking to a lesser shooter,
like and that that you need that alpha dog confidence,
you need that unwavering faith in your game, and like, yeah,
I agree with you. There's a there's a mandatory minimum
(36:21):
amount of like being able to make the reads that
you have to have. But I want to score to
be a score, all right, So we're gonna we're gonna
move on to Tyler Smith. I find him to be
a super fascinating player because he's kind of like a
tweener in the sense that he's like he's kind of
like a little bit of an undersized big but he's
kind of like a bigger forward. But I he's got
like some legit face up games. He's good at, like
(36:42):
like understanding angles and the pivots to get like easy
hook shots and little finger rolls around the bass kind
of kind of reminds me of some of your face
up game back when you were playing too. To be honest,
but like, I find him to be a fascinating player
because in the modern NBA, like we talked about earlier,
you kind of have these two bigs that are fromntioning
is dribble handoff guys on both sides of the four.
You get a lot of switches, and having a big
(37:05):
guy that can like take a smaller player down to
the block and get a bucket is actually a huge
advantage in order to like it's a coverage beater. It's
a if you in a switch, if you have the
small guy guard go on to the screen, or you
need him to go get a bucket. And so tell
us a little bit about Tyler Smith and how you
see him functioning as an NBA player.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
I think Tyler can be just as good as Michael
Porter Jr. And I think he's a guy that can
play some small ball four. I think he can play
the three, and I also think depending on the matchup
that you can put him at too. He can handle
the ball. He can shoot the ball again. He's a
versatile guy who's just super long. He shoots the ball
(37:45):
at a hot clip, and he can make plays when
he has the ball, like he rebounds and pushes, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Not you can't just leave.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Him open to to, you know, to force him to misshots.
He's not going to do that very often. I thought
he's out the ball very well Big Nite on he
shot the ball extremely well and finished up here shooting
the ball very well before he left. But Tyler just
continues to get better. He's one of those guys too
that needed the weight room, and you can tell now
(38:16):
that since he's been getting in and out of the
weight rooms, his game is just kind of starting to
blossom a little bit and he's starting to find his
aggression level. Speaking of Sacramento, like that's the team I
like him to go to because I would love to
see him playing with those guys and and maybe him
sometime at the four with Sabonus at the Vibe. You know,
(38:36):
you got a guy who can bring those fours out
of the paint, but also athletic enough to run with
that team. Or you can bring him into the second
unit with a Eligue Monk and have him in elite
kind of just be the premier guys in that within
that offense. Like he's just a cerebral, versatile guy who
really is like a plug and play type of player
(38:57):
because he just has all the those things. He's a
jack of so many trades, and I don't I'm super
excited to see where he goes and lands because I
think he's one of the guys that I will call
the sleeper in the draft.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Well, that's the fun part about going in the late
first round is you're going to go to a more
developed team, like and you're gonna be given a small
role that you can achieve in. It's it's it's always
more fun to see that the draft prospects that kind
of get an opportunity to go somewhere where they're on
national TV more often and they're playing in bigger games,
and that's how you get you know, Keegan Murray and
and those guys getting those opportunities.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, speaking.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Like, I think this draft is full of those type
of guys. The Keegan Murray's, the Jaden you know McDaniels,
the PJ. Washington's of the world, the Derrick Whites, the
Drew Hollidays, like guys that can come in and like
the Medy and you know, guys who can help you
win big games, not just regular season games, but will
(39:54):
help you win big games. Like you saw that like
this these playoffs that would be just witnessed was it
was old players galore, like a lot of the stars
they showed up. But like really, like those guys are
just named the guys that was like helping teams win,
you know, big games. And I think that's what this
draft has a lot of. And I think that's what
(40:15):
in particular that Tyler Smith can be.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, this this draft doesn't have the major splashy like,
oh my gosh, that's one of the greatest prospects in
the history of basketball type of thing going on. But
to your point, like those those fringe guys, those guys
that just are really high level role players, they almost
always end up being swing factors, Like we see playoff
series swing on the third or fourth best player on
the team all the time. You know what I mean,
(40:40):
It's it's just so vitally important. I mean, you mentioned
Michael Porter Junior earlier. I root for the Lakers. I
got sick of watching him make every damn shot. He
took that damn series of the first round right up.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Why did so many people hate when he makes shots?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Oh my gosh, man, I was so annoyed when he
was missing against Minnesota. So I thought it was fascinating
because when I was watching the film on Tyler Smith,
he did he was getting pushed off his spot a
little bit. So he's been putting in a lot of
work behind the scenes to bulk up.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yes, he has has been in the weight room a
lot of things.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
That's been one of his biggest emphasis over the summer,
and I know it was when in his last year here,
you know, trying to be stronger, getting stronger, being able
to not being pushed off his spot when he's attacked
the basket, not being bumped off his drive, things of
that nature. Because he's gonna have to be a guy
who can score at four levels with his size, his versatility,
(41:38):
his footwork and handle. He's a guy that like they're
gonna rely on him. I believe people are going to
rely on him and asks of him to be able
to be a guy that can score the rim, scored
the free throw line, scoring the mid ranging post, and
then a shoot three. So the weight room is going
to be very vital to his development. I continue telling
(41:59):
him that I hope he's listening.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I heard you. For his sake. I think he'll get it.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
I believe so as well. And again, like his his
his archetype, which is kind of like that matchup attacking
forward that can also shoot the ball, I think is
one of the most valuable archetypes that we see around
the league right now. And I think that there's a
lot of opportunity for guys like him to make good
money in the league if they put the work in
behind the scenes. All right, before we get out of here,
(42:39):
I had talked to you before we started the show.
This is something that's been really fascinating to me over
the course the last couple of years. And you are
very deeply entrenched in player development here in the US,
and obviously you've worked with players from overseas as well.
But as we know, if we were ranking the top
players in the league right now, you're probably going Jokic one.
(42:59):
You're probably putting Luca up there, You're putting Giannis up there,
You're putting like the American guys that are up there
are like Tatum, You know, Anthony Edwards is on the rise,
but I'm not sure he's there yet. And then there's
this KD, Lebron Steph group which is kind of tailing out.
So let me just let's let's start here. Actually, do
you do you agree that the majority of the top
(43:21):
players in the league are from overseas or do you
think the American players are underrated right now?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
I mean, just if I think about, like who I
think the top players in the NBA are right now,
I mean, to me, Luca Is is arguably the best
player in the league, right like Joka follows by, you know,
i'd say Joka, but like that's two guys, you know.
And then like in no particular order, I gotta throw
(43:53):
Jaylen Brown in there, Anthony Edwards in there, I gotta
throw Lebron and they I gotta throw Stephan there. I
gotta throw KD in there, I gotta Devin Booker in there.
I gotta you know, throw I mean, shoot, you got
Yannis too, I mean, but he's not even like I mean,
I just I still think.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
You gotta go through us. But I do believe.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
That, you know, international basketball players have gotten exponentially better,
and quite frankly, like that has a lot to do
with how they've come up. Like Luca ben has been
a pro since he was fourteen, you know, and you
know he's been playing with grown men, you know, since
he was you know, before he could drive. And that
(44:38):
system that that that ecosystem that they're in and and
and the way that they go about doing it, it's
similar to how we do things here at OTE.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
It's basketball, basketball, basketball and everything else. You know.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
That's not to mention, that's not to say that all
the things that everything else are less important, right because
academics are important, right, Like those things are important.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
However, it's like let's be efficient with it. And I
think that's what we've done.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
We kind of you know, copy that model in a sense, right,
Like they're like, let's just cut out all the fluff,
focus on the most important things that are that everything else.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
But focus on basketball.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
You go to a regular high school here in America,
as you know, it's like you're in school for eight
hours a day. You're sitting in classes, and half of
those classes you're not even gonna need or use the
stuff from it, right, That's the first thing. And then
you know, you get out of school and you can't
use the gym because the volleyball team is it's their season,
(45:38):
you know, or wrestling or you know, cheerleading or whatever
the case may be. So you don't have access to
a gym. And by the time you do get access
to a gym, your brain is fried. And so it's
the mind in your body is just tired, so you
don't you may not work as hard that day as
you would in a normal day.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Where you have access to a gym.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Us we give our guys access us to a gym
until about midnight, and their focus is on basketball player development,
getting bigger, getting stronger, getting faster, all of those things.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Most of their day that's taken up of those things.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
So I think that international players, I don't think it's
that they just it's just more talent over there there.
It is a lot of talent internationally, and I respect
and appreciate that talent. But I also think they just
have a system that's caught up to us now because
they like that system. Now you're starting to see that
(46:34):
that system has worked. Right, Like Luca at fourteen wouldn't
have been Luca who he is now.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Him at fourteen.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
He just stayed in that type of system every day
those years prior to coming over here, and you're just
seeing the I guess, the benefits of that work that
he put in back then. Right, Like he was built
to play professional basketball. He was prepared for it at
(47:01):
such a young age. And I think that's the model
that we're using. We're preparing our guys to be leaps
and bounds above the rest of the guys that's coming
in even in college, Like you get twenty hours a
week or something like that prior to the season start.
We have no cap on, you know, the work or
the time that our guys can put in in our building. Right,
(47:22):
Like you can go it's like you're at twenty hours
by Wednesday, you know what I mean. So it's like
it's just a matter of the time that you get
to put in. Those guys aren't internationally just born right
Luka Donchets.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
They worked that. They work to become that.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Like obviously, yeah, God sprinkled a little extra on him.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
They worked to be that. Can you imagine Anthony Edwards.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
In HOTE system from the time that he was a freshman,
I mean, he was already a monster as a high
school player, whole body developed, super athletics, strong, super talented.
But you take all of that and you give our
system to that, and you mix his skill level with that,
I mean he would be leaps and bounds above how
(48:09):
good he is right now. So I just think it's
a matter of accessibility, and I think it's a matter
of just the opportunity and the time that you have
to work on your game. But the international game is
certainly on the way. I looked at the teams they
showed the graphic ESPN show the graphic of the teams
on social media, like the Olympic teams, and like, it's
(48:32):
so many NBA guys on different Olympic teams that it's like, shit,
like this is gonna be. It's gonna be, it's gonna
be tough, you know, Olympic run for our for our team.
But then I look at our.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Team and I'm like, our team is ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
The USA team is stacked, so it's like you have
to be all twelve of those guys, you know, whereas
Canada has three guys from the NBA, Like, of course
they probably have some other guys that are just are good.
I'm sure, but you know, in terms of pinnacle of basketball,
they have, you know, I think it's three guys like
(49:11):
you know, yeah, Shaye, you gotta Jamal Murray, Paul Murray,
you have RJ.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Barrett, Dylks, I think that Brooks.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
You know, four guys, Dylan Brooks.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
So that's four guys right who one of them is
want and a half superstars. You have Shae who come
on his way to being that, and then you know
Jamal Jamal Murray who is missed the playoffs. You know,
those are the two guys. They're they're NBA role players
and I have a ton of respect for both of
their games.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
But like our team.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Has twelve legitimate stars, you know what I mean, It's
like that's gonna be hard to be So I think
we we we're certainly right there, and I think I
think still in the conversations as the best. But the
international guys was certainly, you know, neck and neck with us,
(50:05):
and they figured out the platform to be able to
get themselves and make themselves, you know, extremely prepared for
NBA basketball.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Yeah, I think the I think there's still a massive
gap between the US and all of the other countries individually,
but I do think you could say us versus the
world has gotten close, if not the world has taken
over because of those.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Times that gap business wide anymore.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Yeah, And I'm actually really glad I asked you because
you brought up something that I hadn't even thought about,
which is just like availability of resources. Because I coach
at the high school level here in Tucson, getting the
gym is such a pain in the ass, Like just
getting access to the gym is such a pain, and
like most of the time I have to go up
there super early in the morning and ask the kids
to come in before school to get extra skill reps
(50:52):
in because you're fighting with the volleyball team or or
whoever it is. That's even the football team now in Arizona.
Because it's so hot here in Arizona, the football team
will use the gym for their walk through. I'm like,
what are we even doing here? These are basketball courts. Like,
so it's there's definitely something to be said about Luca
from age fourteen being in a professional program and just
like learning how to play as a professional through that
(51:14):
entire process, and it just accelerates the entire thing. And
I mean to put it even further, like I agree
with you in the sense that I think the US
is bad and hopefully over time Elite will help address
this problem. But like we're bad at like identifying who
our prodigies are and like pulling them out of that
stupid high school system and putting them into a more
(51:36):
defined professional basketball type of system. Because that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Too, not about the prospect here overseas internationally, it's about
the prospect, and it's about what's best for the prospect.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Here, it's about what's best.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
For the agent, the parent, the advisor, the coach, and
everyone that's around them right internationally is selfless.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
They're like, no, go represent us right here.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
We're like, no, I have to keep you with me
so I can get something out of that, like and
and too often that's I think that's what we do.
Like it's teams that we tried to schedule to play
us here at OTE that won't play us because their
coaches are saying to us, we can't bring our players
in you guys building, because they're gonna like it too
(52:23):
much and then we'll lose them. Well, you want the player,
what what is it, Matt? But it is better for
the kid exactly because I think I feel like if
Duke called said coach and said, hey, we have a
head coaching job for you right now, you can be
the head coach of Duke University, that coach wouldn't hesitate
(52:45):
to take that deal or take that offer. But that's
the thing we we We we act like as if
we own players here, like like, no, it's my player,
so he has to do everything with me so I
can get something out of it, as opposed to like
Lucas Slovenia, They're like, no, go represent us, Go be
(53:07):
the best player in the NBA. Go compete for that,
so we can be proud of that, right Like, And
it's it's that that's a that's a large piece to
it that I just never will be able to wrap
my hands around my son, for instance, right he's just
turned sixteen years old.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
The freshman he was.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
He's here at OTE and just finished up his first
year here though Toe and ended up being a starter
for half the season and all of the playoffs. Youngest
guy we've ever had start in Ote. Like I could
have easily been like, no, I want you to stay
in normal high school and be the man and get
all this notoriety and attention and all of that, but
(53:46):
like no, like let's let's delay all that. Do what's
best for you now. So then by the time, like
you can, you will get exponentially better here competing against
these guys every day, and then by the time you're
a senior, you know, the show could be yours. So
like that's the selflessness, right, It's like give up, give
up that instant thing with that big fish, small pond mentality,
(54:10):
and go be a part of something bigger that can
help you in turn be a whole.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Lot more better.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, and you got to learn how to play with
and against really good basketball players, and so like putting
them in an environment like that, that's the advantage with
Luca going and playing with pros at fourteen, like because
if you had to for me, like, I find it
fascinating because I think our skill development in the US
is great, Like we are obsessed with skill development. We
produce so many guys who can dribble and shoot at
(54:36):
a high level, but I think the ability to play
with people is lacking a little bit in our American
basketball player development because of that, Like guys run off
to their AAU team and average thirty five points a
game on twenty five shots a game, and they don't
know how to play alongside other really good players like
you have to. You have to be able to function
(54:57):
next to good players, because that's what Division one basketball
is like. That is what playing overseas is like. That
is what playing in the NBA is like. And I
could I could sit here and complain about AAU basketball
and different things like that all day long, but I'm
gonna I'm gonna save your time. Uh, Damien, I sincerely
appreciate you taking the time to come hang out with
us for a little bit. Is there anything else you
wanted to shout out before we got out of here today?
Speaker 3 (55:18):
No, just man, just excited for our guys alumni. That's
in a couple of days. I'm just super excited for
those guys and and and and looking forward to seeing
you know, where they go, you know, and how well
and just ready to go.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah, we're gonna know a lot more here in a
couple of days. It's I can't believe it's right around
the corner. Feels like the finals. Just end it all right,
That's all we have for today, Damian, thanks again for
coming to hang out. That's all we got. Guys. We're
gonna be back tomorrow morning with Sam Bassini from The
Athletic to look at the rest of the first round
of the NBA Draft. I will see you guys.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Then the volume
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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