Hoops Tonight - Top 25 NBA Players: Jalen Brunson REVIVED Knicks, Donovan Mitchell a LEGIT No. 1

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Jason Timpf continues ranking his Top 25 NBA players, featuring Donovan Mitchell of the Cleveland Cavaliers and Jalen Brunson of the New York Knicks. Jason discusses why Brunson is the best small guard in the NBA after Steph Curry and whether each player is good enough to be the No. 1 option on a championship team. Later, Jason answers listener questions during an NBA Mailbag segment and defends his Top 25 rankings so far.

Timeline: 00:00 - Introduction

05:51 - #17: Donovan Mitchell

20:13 - #16: Jalen Brunson

29:58 - NBA Mailbag

#volume #herd

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
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(01:43):
to Hoops Tonight. You're at the volume. Happy Tuesday, everybody. Oh,
all of you guys are having a great week so far.
We are continuing our player rankings today with number seventeen
and number sixteen. You guys know the drip before we
get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channels. You
don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on
Twitter at underscore JCNLTS. You guys don't miss showing bounce Man.
Don't forget about a podcast feed where if you get
your podcast in our Hoops Tonight, don't forget And it's

(02:03):
helpful if you leave a rating and a review on
that front and then keep dropping mailbag questions in those
YouTube comments so we can keep hitting them throughout the
remainder of the summer. Again at the tail end of
today's show, now that I'm back from vacation and we've
had our player rankings videos out on the feed for
a while, I took a bunch of mail bag questions
from the first three videos where you guys argued against
my rankings, and we're gonna go back and forth a

(02:26):
little bit. That's gonna be the format throughout the rest
of this list. It's gonna be a couple of players
and then mail bag kind of argument style. At the
tail end of the show, I had a couple of
people talking about how it's kind of weird how we
only have two or three players in each videos. In
each video, to be honest, it's just about filling time
in the summer. There's no rush here. It's August twentieth.

(02:46):
We've got like another month and a half before we
even get training camp opening up, or a little less
than a month and a half, and so we've got
some time to kill. And so we're gonna spend a
good chunk of that at the tail end of September
going through some of our season previews. But in the meantime,
we got some time to kill over the next couple
of weeks. So I'd rather talk about something that I
find really interesting, which is player ranking, instead of going

(03:07):
into something else that I don't find is interesting. And
I'd rather just get more in depth with it and
have more arguments with you guys, have it more interactive
and things along those lines. So we're gonna be kind
of just taking a few players a day and then
we'll argue about it at the end, and then we'll
move on until we get to the end of the list.
Today we start the beginning of a new tier. Now,
if you guys, remember I, as I did my kind

(03:30):
of like intro in the first video, I view everybody
on this list in four tiers. The top tier is
like your top tier superstars. These guys are guys that
I project to be perennial MVP candidates moving forward. Okay,
then there's the second tier or second tier superstars. These
are guys who can look like the top tier superstars

(03:52):
on any given night, but each of them have an
issue maintaining of that level of play. Whether it's because
of age, or it's because of health, or maybe it's
just something having to do with their mentality. Regardless of
what it is, that group of guys they can look
like MVP candidate type of players. You know, maybe half
the year, maybe a third of the year or whatever
it is, but they just struggle to remain at that

(04:13):
level the way the guys at the very top do.
The third tier is what we're starting today, and we're
gonna get more into that in a second. These are
players that can be the best player on a championship
team but need an overwhelming amount of support. And then
the last tier, which is all the players we did
leading into today, ending with that bam at a bio
in Victor women Yama video the other day. These are

(04:35):
guys that aren't good enough to be the best player
on championship teams yet, either because they're too specialized like
Bam as a defensive specialist, or guys like Dame and
Kyrie as kind of like small guards that struggle to
impact the game as athletes, or they're too young, like
a guy like Victor wen Minyama especially, but or Tyre's
Halliburton I think kind of fits that bill a little
bit as well, Tyres Maxy as well. Those guys all

(04:58):
have shots to move especially of the young players have
shots to move up the list in the long run,
especially Victor. I think Victor could be a top ten
player even sooner. I have a lot of people that
have criticized how low I have him on the list.
We're gonna get more into that in the mail bag.
I don't want to do it right now. But again,
like that last tier of guys, those are all guys
that are not capable of being the best player on

(05:19):
a champion championship team. This next phase of the list,
these are guys who I do view that can be
the best player on a championship team. They just need
an overwhelming amount of support. So, without any further ado,
let's get into it with number seventeen. Donovan Mitchell last
season played fifty five games. He also missed two playoff games,

(05:41):
so availability was definitely a little bit of an issue.
Last year for Donovan, he averaged twenty six point six
points per game, five point one rebounds per game, and
six point one assists per game as one of the
best passing season of his career, which we're gonna get
more into here in a little bit. He also averaged
two point three stocks per game. This was Donnie Mitchell's
best defensive season of his career. He really found a

(06:03):
way to impact winning without having to be kind of
on the ball right. Now, he did have some on
ball reps and he was very very aggressive on the ball.
He got a lot of steels. This was a guy
that kind of weaponized his athleticism in a very aggressive
sense on the ball. But where he really found a
defensive role for Cleveland was off the ball, and one
of his best traits is his athleticism, right, and so

(06:25):
what he found that kind of worked for him was
his ability to dig down into the lane, meaning like
if he's guarding a guy on the left wing and
someone's driving on the right wing, he will sink down
to the nail and swipe down at the basketball. But
he also has this speed and the ability to stop
on a dime and change direction to close out to
shooters from there. And so he actually had a really

(06:47):
useful role in the Cleveland defense as an off ball
defender is the guy he would dig down into the
lane and then recover out to shooters. Now, obviously he
could get a little over aggressive sometimes, especially on the ball,
and he makes he made some mistakes, but I thought
this was a big step forward for him on the
defensive end of the floor. Last year in Cleveland. He
was one of only three players in the league last

(07:08):
year Donovan Mitchell to average at least twenty five points
per game and at least one point five steals per game.
I thought that was a surprise. The first two guys
you won't be surprised to Shae Gilders, Alexander and Deer
and Fox. But the third guy to make that list
was Donovan Mitchell. So shout out to don for the
best defensive season of his career. His shooting splits. He

(07:29):
shot forty six point two percent from the field, thirty
six point eight percent from three, eighty six point five
percent from the line. That amounted to fifty four point
five percent in effective field goal percentage. That's just field
goal percentage weighted for threes, and then fifty nine point
five percent true shooting, which includes free throws as well,
which is really really good. So a nice efficient scoring

(07:50):
season for Donovan Mitchell. Some shooting stats from Synergy. His
jump shot he got one point zero six points per shot.
He was especially effective off the catch. He got at
one point one four points per shot off the catch
in jump shooting situations one point one seven points per
shot when guarded one point zero nine when he's open.
I found this interesting. Guys that like really elevate on

(08:13):
their shot, they actually tend to shoot a little bit
better when they're contested. And the main reason why is
they elevate really high on those kinds of shots. A
lot of times those kinds of players, when they find
themselves open, try to kind of relax a little bit
and don't jump as high, and that actually can end
up affecting their ability to knock down shots. And I
always think that's funny when you see guys like Donovan,
like really athletic shooters who are actually a little bit

(08:34):
more efficient off when they're when they're getting contested versus
when they're wide open. He was excellent off the dribble.
He got one point zero three points per shot. That's
forty percent overall and field goal percentage and fifty two
percent when you weait it for three, So really good
pull up shooting shot a really good forty seven point
four percent on long twos outside of seventeen feet and

(08:55):
then forty seven percent on short pull up twos inside
of seventeen feet. So dal I me ar fifty percent
on those pull up mid range jump shots that became
a really useful shot for him here In the last
couple of seasons, he had a decent floater shot, just
forty two percent on them, took about two per game.
Obviously not as good as some of his peers around
the league, but that's a decent enough. But he was
excellent going to the rim. For a guard his size,

(09:17):
he shot sixty one percent at the rim, including sixty
percent on layups. Usually small guards they're in the mid
to low fifties when you get into that layup range,
just because they're shooting over trees all the time. But
he was super efficient and high volume. He got three
point four restricted area makes per game. Among players in

(09:37):
the league that are below six ' five, only Tyrese
Maxi and John Morant, who only played in nine games,
had more restricted area makes per game than Donovan. Mitchell
series one of the best guys at getting to the rim,
and like, honestly the main thing that stood out to me.
I went back and watched a bunch of his drives
in when I was watching film on him yesterday, and like,

(10:01):
his footwork going to the basket is just absurd. His
ability to quick euro right to left or left to
right it this left to right euro on Devin Booker
that set Devin Booker flying into the stanchion and complaining
at the refs, and as Donovan's just making an easy
right handed layup on the right side of the rim,
and it was just an absurd move considering how fast
he was going downhill to then plant that left foot

(10:22):
and almost like kind of cut his speed and get
back to the right as Devin Booker was overreacting to
that left side and went flying. It's just an unbelievable
display of athleticism and footwork. He's got that wade pullover dribble.
I watched him do it to Austin Reeves where he
just pulled the ball right over his head and then
kind of slid over to the left side and put
it in off the glass. He's got those spin moves,

(10:43):
he's got those hop steps. He's just got really good footwork, which, again,
as I talk about all the time on the show,
like when you have athleticism, that's one thing, but footwork
is how you functionally get your athleticism to benefit you
on the basketball court. I talk about this with my
young players all the time, and I'm really emphasizing it
now because we're in our early phase of the season,
so there's a lot of new players. And like, if
you have an opening to the right or an opening

(11:05):
to the left for a pull up jump shot, meaning
like there's a little bit of space there that you
can get to, but you're only comfortable taking a jump
shot off of the dribble with right left footwork, then
you're only going to be able to get to that
spot going left. And if you see it right and
you have to chop your feet or you have to
hop into it, that little lack of efficiency is going

(11:26):
to allow a good defender to recover to you. And
like that's the thing, Like Donovan's a great athlete, but
he's got all of the functional footwork that actually allows
him to weaponize that athleticism. There are a lot of
freaky athletic small guards in the league that aren't even
close to sixty percent on layups. And again, it's not
about like making super tough shots over contests. There are

(11:47):
guys like that in the league, guys like Kyrie, guys
like Steph Right that are just really like shot makers
when they get to the rim. But for the most part,
it's about getting open layups. And how do you get
open layups by actually making moves in that short range
to shed defenders and to create space so that you
can just put the ball easily in off the off
the backboard. Let's get into some play type data, so

(12:10):
pick and roll. He was in the eightieth percentile last year.
He got one point zero three points per possession including passes.
Didn't quite make our high volume list, he was at
just eight hundred and eighty five possessions. But he had
really good chemistry, specifically with Jared Allen. They ran a
lot of action on the left side of the floor.
They saw a lot of ice coverage, which is again
where you see that guard defender deny the use of

(12:31):
the screen and force you back towards the sideline. But
Donovan had a really nice kind of like chemistry with
Jared Allen where he would just quickly rescreen and actually
screen Donovan towards the sideline, and he got a lot
of these easy pull up threes along that left wing
just because of that screen chemistry that he had with
Jared Allen. And that specifically is the kind of thing
that you need when you're gonna beat these kinds of coverages,

(12:52):
right like Hey, we come up the left side, we
know we're gonna see an ice We're gonna see an
ice coverage there. I need you either to make yourself
available to or I need you to screen me on
that kind of sideline side. And you saw a lot
of both of that. You saw the screens for those
pull up jump shots. Like I talked about, a lot
of times the big in those ice coverages on defense
would come up higher and so Jared wouldn't even bother

(13:14):
to set a screen. He would just kind of slip
into that like fifteen foot area when he'd catched there.
If the lowman wasn't there, he'd just ripped through and
dunk it. And if he was, he would just shoot
that little pop shot or that little short jump shot.
And Jared Allen was their most effective role man last year.
Not hard to figure out. Evan Mobley obviously still struggling
in that regard, but the chemistry between Jared Allen and

(13:35):
Donovan Mitchell is real. And that's now because of the
contract extensions for both guys going to be a staple
of Cleveland Cavalier basketball for a long time. In ISO situations,
Donovan Mitchell was the in the seventy fourth percentile. He
got one hundred and seventy four points one hundred and
seventy four possessions. You guys can go ahead and do
the math there for what that is on a points
per possession basis. I talked about his downhill moves earlier

(13:57):
in those ISO situations, just getting into the defender body
and then using those like kind of footwork elements to
shed that defender so that he can get into the basket.
His pull up jumper also just incredibly deadly. As we
talked about, I think Donovan Mitchell has the best step
back jump shot going to his left for a small
guard in the league in terms of getting separation. Obviously,
a guy like Steph Curry's a better shooter, but in

(14:19):
terms of the actual footwork and getting separation, Donovan has
this hard pound dribble through the legs to the right
where he like pounds it through the legs while gathering
it back to the left, So he's basically whipping it
and grabbing it and pulling it back to the left,
and he covers so much ground and he gets such
a wide base he goes straight up and down at

(14:39):
the end that it's actually turned into a really reliable
ISO type of shot for him. It's a piece of
footwork that I think a lot of athletic guards need
to have. It's just a basic I look at it
as like a jab step with a live dribble. So
you imagine you got a lot, you've got a triple threat,
and the defender's kind of playing a little bit off
of you, and you want to kind of establish your
rhythm and get a little more separation, you'll throw a

(15:01):
hard jab and then you'll go up right. Well, in
a live dribble situation, that's where that move comes into
the picture. Right, you're dribbling in that high hesitation and
you pound between your legs and pull back. It basically
functions as a jab step even though you have a
live dribble, and Donovan makes really nice use of that
in ISO situations, which made him an effective isoscore last year. Again,

(15:23):
he didn't make any of our high volume lists, but
he was very effective in both pick and roll and
ISO situations. It was the best playmaking season of Donovan
Mitchell's career. Not only did he average a career high
six point one assist per game, but this was also
the first time in Donovan's entire career that he had
an assist to turnover ratio over too, meaning for the
first time he had at least two assists for every turnover.

(15:46):
That's a big step forward for him, and a big
one that I noticed is those long steps at the
rim that I talked about, those euros and those spins
and those pullover dribbles and stuff like that. It allowed
him to slow himself down at the rim, which in
many cases brought over the low man more aggressively. And
he just got really good at making that kickout pass
to the weak side corner when you would get into

(16:06):
the rim. And then the second piece of it is
just that role chemistry with Jared Allen, which we talked
about earlier. He had an excellent playoff run. He was
flat out explosive. He went off for fifty in a
game against Orlando. He had a hyper efficient twenty nine
point game on the road in Boston to actually win
that game in game two of that second round series.
He averaged thirty points per game overall in the playoff

(16:28):
run on fifty eight percent for shooting. It was just
a casual reminder that Donovan's still one of the most
explosive guards in the league within that playoff context, where
his athleticism is more of a factor areas of opportunity,
he's still a volatile decision maker. His assist numbers cratered
in the postseason. He was down to four point seven
points per game. He still has a tendency to try
to solve problems in the game by hijacking things and

(16:51):
looking to score, especially early in the clock, like when
things start to hit the fan. That's when it'll start
to take a couple like early clock pull up jump shots,
and you know, you get a couple of misses there,
they can really kind of demoralize the team. And so
he's just not as good as a game manager as
some of his peers at the top of the league.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that he's
as explosive as he is. That's just his main area

(17:13):
of opportunity, and he is getting a little better each year.
And so here's the thing, Like I think Donovan's primed
to make some real noise in his prime, as if
we had into this phase where he's in his late
twenties early thirties, if he can stay healthy and maintain
a good chunk of his athleticism. I think he can
build that part of his game out and even go
up a level from where he's at right now.

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Speaker 2 (18:19):
Number sixteen. Jalen Brunson last year played seventy seven games,
averaged twenty eight point seven points per game three point
six rebounds per game, six point seven assists per game,
along with just two point four turnovers. As a matter
of fact, Jalen Brunson was one of only seven players
in the NBA to average at least twenty five points

(18:41):
at least six assists in fewer than three turnovers, So
in a kind of like a kind of exclusive company
in terms of hyper efficient, high volume shot creators shooting splits,
he shot forty seven point nine percent from the field,
forty point one percent from three to eighty four point
seven percent from the line. That amounted to fifty four
point three percent in effective field goal percentage waited for

(19:03):
threes and fifty nine point two percent true shooting. When
you add foul shooting into that, he averaged a career
high six point five free throw attempts per game. Really
a master of that low gathered using pump faced guys
at a position just adding to his efficiency in his
overall scoring volume by getting to the line. That was
the sixteenth most free throw attempts per game in the

(19:24):
entire NBA. Last year, shooting numbers perc Entergy one point
zero nine points per jump shot. He was at one
point three four points per catch and shoot jump shot,
which is insane. He shot forty five percent overall and
field goal percentage on catch and shoot jump shots that
amounted to sixty seven percent in effective field goal percentage
when you weigh it for threes, that was in the
ninety fourth percentile, So he's one of the best catch

(19:46):
and shoot guys in the league. Last year, he also
got one point zero two points per pull up jump
shot that was forty three percent in field goal percentage
fifty one percent when you weigh it for threes. And
then he was the best floater shooter in the entire NBA.
Last year he shot fifty five percent on floaters fifty
five percent. Remember we've just talked about Donovan Mitchell at
forty two percent. And he also had three hundred and

(20:07):
fifteen attempts, which is the only player in the league
to attempt over three hundred. So he's got the best
floater in the game. And it's not particularly close. And
when you look at the other guys that were in
the top five for volume, and these guys were all
below three hundred attempts. But these are the other top
five guys in the top five, Tyas Jones, Trey Young, CJ. McCollum,
Tyre Smaxi. Not a single one of them got over
one point zero four points per floater. Brunson was at

(20:31):
one point one point eight. That's a substantial gap. He's
just the best at it, or at least he was
last season, and then fifty five percent at the RAM.
That's solid for a small guard. It's kind of where
you expect. It's not very good, not very bad either.
He had three point seven attempts per game, which is
also in the restricted area, which is also solid for
a small guard who doesn't have a lot of speed

(20:51):
or quickness. Playtype data from Synergy ran fifteen hundred and
fourteen pick and rolls including passes, that was the most
in the entire NBA. He got sixteen hundred and seven
points out of them. That amounts to one point zero
six points per possession. This was in the eightieth percentile
for efficiency. He made a high volume list, obviously, as
the highest volume pick and roll player in the league.

(21:13):
Out of the fifteen players to run at least one
thousand ball screens including passes, Jalen Brunsond ranked seventh in
the entire NBA. Not a great ISO year for him,
though he ran four hundred and twenty two ISOs and
got just three hundred and seventy seven points including passes,
that amounted to zero point eighty nine points per possession.
He personally shot just thirty nine percent in those situations,

(21:35):
and inner high volume list he ranked twenty fourth out
of the twenty four players to run at least two
hundred and fifty ISOs. He was the worst high volume
ISO player in the league last year, but I view
this as mostly a blip in just kind of an
unusual circumstance because last year, the year before last, I
should say, he got one point one zero points per

(21:55):
ISO including passes, which ranked fifth out of the twenty
five players to run at least two hundred fifty So
he was one of the best high volume MISO players
in the league last year, and then in this year's
playoff run he was at one point zero four points
per io including passes, which is a really good number.
So in all likelihood, the ISO numbers last year were
just kind of a blip. I think a big part
of it too, was Julius Randall being out for basically

(22:16):
half the season, and so he just had a lot
of rescue possessions were ready to throw shit up at
the end of the shot clock, and I think that
probably hurt his efficiency in that regard to a certain extent.
The playoff run for Jalen Brunson was super impressive, yet
he averaged thirty two point four points per game, seven
point five assists to just two point seven turnovers. That
amounted to a respectable fifty four percent in true shooting percentage,

(22:37):
which was great considering the circumstances, like I talked about earlier,
especially with the injuries later in the playoff run and
then obviously not having Julius Randall as a substantial secondary
shot creator. The Philly series in particular was insane to me.
When you watch those first two games, the Sixers were
throwing the kitchen sink at him. He had a steady
diet of like six ' eight six ' nine athletic

(22:57):
wings that were chasing him over the top of screans
and applying back pressure, pressuring him on his way up
the floor, trying to funnel him into Joel Embiid, who
in a deep drop coverage can still be effective as
a defensive player. They were digging down in the lane
off of other players when he would drive it was
about as tough of a defensive look as you'll see
for a single shot creator, and he averaged thirty six

(23:18):
points and nine assists in that series, and that was
after a rough couple of games. If you take out
the first two games, he averaged forty two to ten
forty two points and ten assists in the last four
games of the series on fifty nine percent tru shooting.
It was a very, very impressive display of half court
shot creation from Jalen Brunson. And the Knicks just fell
apart with injuries. I strongly believe that they would have

(23:39):
made the conference finals. I think they would have beat
Indian five had they stayed healthy, But once Ojiananobi went
down in Game two, it was just basically over at
that point. His weaknesses Jalen Bronson doesn't really have the
ability to impact the game as an athlete in any capacity,
which obviously hurts his overall two way impact. But to
his credit, he does his job on defense and he

(23:59):
holds well enough on an island in ISO, mainly because
he's strong that he's not really a weak point either.
In addition to that, he's made himself one of the
best half court surgeons in the game. As we've discussed
at length at this point, he's a deadly drop coverage beater.
He can hit pull up threes when you duck under picks.
He can hit pull up twos when you chase over
the top. He's the best floater shooter in the league.
He's proven his ability to be a high level playmaker.

(24:21):
I think he's the best small guard in the league
after Steph Curry, and I think he's demonstrated that to
a great extent. The guys that I have above him,
I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people that
are They feel like I have Brunson too low. And again,
these guys are all in the same tier to me,
so we're kind of splitting hairs. But the guys that
I have above him are all bigger, better athletes, and
that goes a long way towards your ability to impact winning.

(24:43):
But I don't see much of a gap between him
and really anybody in this tier. This tier is all
very bunched up in that regard. But I think in
terms of just looking at the small guards in the league,
guys below like six ' five, I think that he's
the best small guard in the league. After Steph Curry.
Why is he above Donovan Mitchell. I think Jalen's a
better game manager and decision maker than Donovan Mitchell. That's

(25:06):
the main differentiator. He's far less susceptible to like those
five or six possession stretches that Donovan can have where
he just takes a bunch of bad shots and kind
of loses sight of the bigger picture. And that, to me,
especially in the playoff context, is super valuable. Jalen Brunson
has stamped himself as a legitimate number one on a
championship team this year by demonstrating that he can generate
enough offense to win a playoff series without a legitimate

(25:29):
co star. Again, I believe they would have made the
conference finals had they stayed healthy. But at the same time,
the Knicks are aware that he needs a lot of
support and he will have that this year. The addition
of Michale Bridges and Julius Randall coming back from injury,
either as a player or as a trade piece, and
also factoring the resigning of Ogananobi, that gives Brunson a

(25:49):
bunch of high level two way players that allow him
to focus on what he does best, which is just
being that half court surgeon. So again, he's incredibly good
at one specific thing, and if you can point him
and shoot him that way and account for everything else
with your role players, you give yourself a good chance.
And I'm really curious to see how that experiment works
this season. Etho, all right, let's get to the mail bag.

(26:19):
I've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight
looks like nine questions. We'll see maybe miscounting there, so
we'll see. Jason, I have to disagree with you for
not putting Drew Holliday on the in contention list. Dude
is one of the few guys with multiple championships on
different rosters. Arguably the best perimeter defender in the league,

(26:40):
played more on a stacked USA team than almost anyone
else in the contention list, contributes heavily to winning man
deserves his flowers. He should get on the possible top
twenty five lists. I totally agree. It was just an
accidental oversight on my part. He's better than a lot
of the guys that made my preliminary forty five lists,
so again, it was just an accident. That kind of
thing happens when you do what I do for a

(27:00):
living stuff just slips through the cracks and I make mistakes.
Kyrie was fifty to forty ninety playing next to the
most ball dominant player and is a much better defender
than Fox, as we just saw in the playoffs. What
real argument does Fox have over Kyrie? Well, for starters,
I disagree that Kyrie is a better defender than Fox.
Fox I thought he demonstrated, especially at that in that

(27:20):
Warriors series, that he has pretty considerable defensive upside, and
also with DeMar Derozen in the mix now is like
a high volume shock creator that can kind of take
some of those duties away from him. Now Fox will
have an opportunity to devote more resources in that direction.
I expect Dearon Fox to have the best defensive season
of his career this year. So again, I think Kyrie
is a good and useful defensive player. But I think

(27:42):
to Deer and Fox, especially within the context of what
Kyrie has is like playing alongside a secondary star where
he can focus his energy there. I think Fox is
a more capable and a more impactful defensive player. I
also think Fox is clearly a better basketball player overall,
especially as a primary shot creator. He's way more athletic,
his much better size for the position, he applies substantially

(28:03):
more rim pressure, which is one of the most valuable
things you can do offensively. I don't have to get
into it right now, but just getting to the rim
and occupying defenders and getting shots up on the glass
is so valuable to an offense, both for generating open
threes and offensive rebound opportunities. But one last thing. He's
also proven to be a much more durable and reliable

(28:24):
guy to lead his team over the eighty two game
stretch as well as four potential playoff rounds. So I
think Fox is a better basketball player. That said, to
your point, there is a real case that Kyrie is
a better number two alongside another star because of his
ability to play off the ball and because of his
ability to rescue possessions as a tough shot maker. And

(28:46):
that's a fair point. I have a male bad question
that I didn't put in today's show because it's more
relevant tomorrow. But I have a mail back question for
our next show that's regarding Devin Booker and Jalen Brown
that gets into this concept, and it's a legitimate counterpoint,
and I totally agree. But for the record, we're splitting
hairs here and I have Fox at twenty four and

(29:06):
Kyrie at twenty five, so I obviously don't see much
of a difference overall between those two guys. I just
think I think darreon Fox in a vacuum. If you
were drafting to start a again, there's thirty NBA teams,
there's thirty NBA teams, And if we were doing an
open draft and you had the twenty fourth pick, you're
picking to be the best player on your team. So

(29:29):
like Daron Fox is who you're taking in that spot
over a guy like Kyrie Irving. But that point about
Kyrie being a better number two is fair, and that's
a big part of why Kyrie is as high on
this list as he is. But at the same time,
I gave the slight nod to Fox. But again we're
talking about a very very tiny margin here, Guys, I
just don't understand how you can think Lebron can get

(29:50):
through a full playoff at this point as a top
five player. He looked fantastic in the Olympics, but that
was not as much of a grinder as the conference
finals and finals. Even in in the Olympics, he was
losing steam by the end of the gold medal game.
Once again not a slight he is thirty nine. It
is incredible how well he played. Lebron got away with
some cruise control in twenty twenty three and really wasn't
top five until Lebron wasn't top five Lebron until he

(30:12):
realized the Nuggets were not going to let him rest.
Without Davis, there was no way he even gets to
the most competitive sweep in NBA history. I think you
were greatly underestimating how much of a buzz saw the
NBA playoffs are, especially after an NBA season, and for
the Lakers a play in you see a bunch of
young players run up and not realize what they are
getting into. I think there are two LEPs, the physical
which is the second and third round, and mental buzzsaw

(30:35):
in the finals itself. I think ant ran into the
first one last year and Luca ran into the second one.
Lebron obviously knows, hence the cruise control twenty twenty three
and twenty twenty four. He knew the Nuggets would crush
him if he didn't try. I would add having this
playoff experience to rankings because I think it is important
for players to learn this as well as additional durability.
Think about the players who didn't make it through the

(30:56):
playoff grinder. Even Jordan had to learn about this. Ant
is better for experience and possibly Luca. I suppose it
is a plus that Lebron knows this. I also think
he helped I also think this helped Curry in twenty
twenty two a lot. There's definitely something to a superstar
getting to the finals and experiencing the pacing. So here's
the thing. There are a lot of people that I've seen.
There was a Celtics buddy of mine named Mike who

(31:18):
who told me that he thought that the twenty twenty
Lakers benefited from the gap, the break from the COVID shutdown,
because it gave them a chance to rest so that
they could get through the playoff run. Here's the thing.
Lebron is still yet to miss a single playoff game
in his entire career, So the idea that he can't

(31:39):
hold up for a two months playoff run is completely theoretical.
It's based on like he's old, maybe he won't do it,
but we've never actually seen him not be able to
do it. In twenty twenty three, he got hurt and
he played on it, and he still averaged twenty five,
ten and seven on fifty eight percentury shooting, and he
got stronger as the playoffs went on. In the Nugget series,

(32:00):
he average twenty eight, ten and ten and shot fifty
two percent from the field. So, like, here's the thing.
He definitely conserves energy in the regular season. And by
the way, that's why he won't be top five on
this list, even though I think i'd pick him top
five for a playoff series that starts tomorrow, right. That
has to be factored in because, as you mentioned, the
Lakers sometimes have to play in the play in. A

(32:22):
big part of why the Lakers have had to play
in the play in has been Lebron has to conserve
a certain amount of energy because he's old in the
eighty two. But when we get to the four rounds,
I understand skepticism he's gonna be forty blah blah blah blah.
But he's never missed a playoff game. So like, whatever
idea you might have about whether or not he can't
hold up that, it's just not it's just theoretical. At

(32:45):
this point. It's not actually based on anything that's actually happened.
But again, I don't have Lebron in my top five.
I have I'll give you guys, like a little tiny teaser.
I still have Tatum above Lebron in the eighty two
game context, even though I think Lebron is a substained
better like two week basketball player. Okay, so like, let's
I am factoring that in. I just think that within

(33:07):
the playoff context, I think it's unfair to Lebron to
be like, oh, but maybe he won't be available when
all these ever been has been available. Right mail back.
Question about your criteria for these rankings, Number one, Your
number one criterion is half court offensive creation. Doesn't that
reward helio centric players like Doncic and Marie who rack
up substantial counting stats but whose team offense is easier

(33:28):
to stop than five out offense if you prefer five
out as the more resilient offensive approach, shouldn't half court
criteria making be playmaking both on and off the ball,
like Curry and Tatum. I'd rather a star get involved
in the screening and cutting than simply the counting stats.
For the record, I agree with you in your overall
basketball philosophy that heliocentric basketball is not as overall effective

(33:49):
as like five out play with each other team based basketball.
That said, like Luka, Doncic is so so so so
so so so so so much better than Jason Tatum
as half court shot creator that even if I disagree
about the play style, it just still is a gap
that we have to account for. And so like again,
like when I talk about half court offensive creation, I'm

(34:10):
extending that to five out as well. And that is
why Steph you know, I still consider it to be
in the superstar tier, even though he's declined a certain
amount over the course of the tail end of last season. Like,
I still believe that that shot creation value of him
running around off of screens and the gravity and all
of that is still so profoundly impactful. I also think
Curry is going to shoot better this year. We'll see.

(34:32):
But like I want to be clear, like I'm not
favoring heliocentric players. I'm just saying that among all the
different things that I value, that elite half court offensive
creation is still the thing that I think is most
valuable in the league. Second part of your question, I
also think that leaving out defense, which you do discuss
when actually ranking and rebounding as explicit criteria as a
major mistake. I want my start to greatly impact all

(34:54):
parts of the game. Like Ad and Giannis, I'm not
leaving out defense. Just because I have half court shot
creation as more valuable than defense doesn't mean I don't
value defense. It's still in there. It's still part of
the equation for me. It's I mean, I had beam
At a Bio in my top twenty, right Like, I'm
not discounting that. I'm just saying that I think that
the half court high end offensive creation is the most

(35:15):
valuable piece that any single player can bring to the team. Hey, Jason,
can you explain why Dame is higher than Fox. I'm
just curious of the thought process in basketball reasoning. Thanks
and keep up the good work. I think Dame is
just a much better shot maker, which I think is
super valuable in the playoffs when things get tight. So,
for example, in Dame's last two playoff runs, He's attempted
thirteen to threes per game and made forty four percent

(35:36):
of them. That's insane. He's at thirty three points per
game on sixty two percentury of shooting in his last
ten playoff games. So here's the thing. I do think
Dearon Fox is a better regular season player right now
because he's a better athlete, he plies a lot more
rim pressure, he's a better defensive players, just more impactful
over the eighty two. That said, that playoff part of
it is part of it for me, and I just

(35:56):
think Dame is a better half court shot creator in
the playoffs, kind of similar to what we were just
talking talking about. So that gave him the edge for me.
But it's also worth mentioning that I have all these
guys in the same tier, so like, it's not like
I think Dame's here and Fox is here there, They're
right next to each other. I'm just giving the nod
to Dame. The tiers for me are designed to actually
signify a difference in the levels, if that makes sense.

(36:19):
Over analyzing on John Rant, In my opinion, Lillard and
Maxie are not just better than him just because their
shooting numbers are better. Wait, okay, hold on, Lillard and
MAXI are not better than him just because they're shooting
numbers are better. My list, they are multiple tiers below
jaw led backs back fifty plus win teams when he
last really played, and stats can't measure the difference his
mere presence on the court provides, given his insane speed

(36:40):
and athleticism. And he's a better defender than both Lillard
and Maxi before the toy but before twenty before the
twenty two to twenty three season, he was horrible, But
in that season his d was fine. We saw Maxi
without himbid he wasn't that amazing or winning games. And
Dame is getting older and was wildly inconsistent last year.
A couple of things. I actually do think Tyros Maxi
is better defender than Jaw. I do think Jaw's a
better defender than Day though I agree that Jaw is

(37:02):
a better basketball player when he's available than those guys.
I've said this on the show before, But like, I
think Jaw has like top ten potential when he's available.
The thing is, he has missed eighty six of the
grizzlies last one hundred and eight games, and that wasn't
just the suspension either, Like there are health issues there,
So like that's the main thing that has him this

(37:23):
far back on the list. I'm a huge believer in
what John Muran is capable of. He just needs to
prove that he can actually be available to his team
before he can be regarded that high on the list.
There's actual, like can't he stay healthy concerns with Jaw
that extend beyond even the suspension stuff. Thoughts on Maxi's upside.
I know you mentioned Jos's potential was higher, but I'm

(37:43):
curious how close that is. Like you said, he's a
great leader, a workaholic, and one of the best off
the cat shooters we've seen. If that off the dribble
develops while he's playing with someone like Embid, I can
see his playmaking improving as well, even if he's mid
at defense. At his peak, a player averaging twenty seven
to twenty eight with four rebounds and seven assists on
like sixty one percent shooting is MVP level stuff. The
main gap between Jaw and Maxi in my opinion. In

(38:05):
my opinion is the ability to stop on a dime
in the vertical pot. That makes Jaw much more dynamic
as a score in these short range which makes him
much harder to guard in my opinion. But I do
think Tyres Maxy has superstar upside. He's just got further
to go. I think he has to become a substantially
better passer than he is, and then that pull up
jumper efficiency like we talked about earlier, So like, if

(38:27):
you can improve dramatically in those two areas, I think
he can enter into that tier. But Jaw is just
Jaw's not as dependent on the jump shot because he's
just so dynamic with his ability to change direction, with
his ability to get downhill and then suddenly at five
feet just pop up off the ground and shoot a
floater like right there. Like He's just he's so dynamic
in that short range as a scorer, it just makes
him borderline impossible to guard. I take issue with the

(38:51):
methodology used here in which durability plays a factor into
how we rank players. If we are ranking players based
on basketball talent alone in a vacuum, then durability should
be a part of the equation. Injuries can happen to
anyone at any time. A better measure of how good
players are in a vacuum should assume health. That way,
we can compare the on court impact and the play
of these players and rank them accordingly. Ranking a player

(39:12):
lower due to availability is disingenuous to the idea of
ranking them in a vacuum, I disagree. The main thing
is we can't just we can't just assume. You said earlier,
you mentioned injuries can happen to anyone at any time.
That's true, But I think we all have to admit
that certain players are more susceptible to injuries than others.
That's just a fact that we can see in the
availability of some of these guys. Also the entire premise

(39:34):
of the list. What I mean by in a vacuum.
In a vacuum means from October first through to the
mid June through to mid June, all thirty franchises drafting
all four hundred and fifty players. Who are you taking?
So if a guy is like, really good for the
two months but has injury issues over the eighty two,
that has to be factored in. It just does. It's

(39:56):
in a vacuum within the context of a full season
from training camp all the way through to the end
of the NBA Finals, And so that to me is
why availability has the factor. So I'm not actually listening
to mailback question here because there was just a bunch
of these, But I had a bunch of people talk
about how I had Wemby too low and specifically why
I have Bam over him for this particular season. For

(40:16):
the record, I think Victor wimen Yama is very capable
of being the best player of the league in the
league sooner than later. I'm a huge believer in Wemby.
I'm a huge fan of Wemby. However, you guys know
how I feel about young basketball players, particularly when it
comes to making mistakes. I actually think you could argue
an overall winning impact over the eighty two games Wemby

(40:38):
absolutely should be higher that. I agree with you. I
think he's going to be in just a complete wrecking
ball for this eighty two games. However, when you get
into the playoffs, there are so many close games. There
are so many games that are decided by a handful
of possessions. So much of it comes down to execution,
and young players in particular have problem preventing mistakes and

(41:00):
replicating what works. They're a little bit more volatile, right. Bam,
for instance, is not gonna be nearly as impactful as
Wemby over the eighty two but for a playoff series,
he just has so much experience. He has NBA Finals experience,
he's played in I don't even know, like a dozen
playoff series. He's just been in so many of those
environments and you can count on him, for the most part,

(41:22):
to not make mistakes and to just do his job.
And so again, long term, Wenby's obviously way better than BAM.
Short term, in the regular season, Wemby's obviously way better
than Bam. But when I'm factoring in, like what it's
gonna be like in a knockdown, drag out, physical seven
game series in May, I just give Bam the slightest
edge because he's less mistake prone at this point. Wenby

(41:44):
still has a tendency to take a few bad shots.
There were some times in Foebo where he'd take a
kind of like a contested early clock three, you know,
or over penetrate and get into traffic and turn the
basketball over. Those sorts of things. Over the eighty two.
He can easily make up for it in the massive
sample size by being the wrecking ball that is Wemby.
But when you get into nut crunching time, that's where

(42:06):
it's like that mistake can be catastrophic, right, And so again,
just within the context of the goal of getting to
mid June. For just this season, I barely give Baym
an edge, but I think Wemby's gonna get I think
there's a good chance Wenby gets some playoff experience this year.
I think there's a chance he gets into that play
in picture, and who knows whins a couple of games,

(42:27):
he could get a seven game series. I just think
Wemby needs some experience. And by the way, guys, I'm
pretty consistent with this. You guys know, guys that are
below the age of twenty two, they're not gonna be
very high on my lists because that's just the way
that I see the game. I think young players struggle
to replicate what works, then they struggle to avoid making mistakes.
But don't take that as Wemby criticism. That's how I

(42:48):
feel about every young player. And I'm as big a
Wenby fan as you'll find out there. Hey, Jason, just
a bit of my two cents about Bam spot on
the list. Difference between Bam and AD is that he
doesn't have Lebron, James, Austin Reeves and d Low getting
him those easy buckets at the rim all game. He
hasn't had a high level playmaker since d Wade was
in the backcourt throwing him lobs. First of all, I disagree.

(43:09):
I think Jimmy Butler is a high level playmaker. Also,
AD is just a much much higher level offensive player
than Bam. Guys like BAM is incapable of doing what
Ad did to Jokic in the first round this year.
AD was going at Jokic repeatedly and cooking his ass
one on one forced Mike Malone to make a change

(43:29):
and take Jokic off of him. That's how good Ad
is as a one on one ISO slash post up player.
Bam has two thirty point games in the playoffs in
his entire career. AD has twenty three. So like, they
just aren't on the same tier as basketball players that
I don't see as much as I love Bam, Eighty's

(43:49):
just flat out better than him, and so like, I
don't think it's about playmaking. Again, he plays with Jimmy Butler,
who is one of the better playmaking wings in the league.
So I just don't see that as enough of an excuse.
Great breakdown on Fox, But there's no way Halle is
better than him. If we're going to believe in players
when they are extremely healthy, Fox averaged thirty points a
game before he's prayed his ankle. Holly is a terrible

(44:11):
point of attack defender. Fox is arguably one of the best.
Fox averaged two steals per game From the point of attack.
Fox is a closer, and Holly fades during big time moments.
Holly can't be higher than off two and a half
months of great basketball and completely disregarding the rest of
the season. We're not disregarding the rest of the season.
Halliburton is one of the best offensive engines in all
of basketball, even when he's hampered. When he's healthy and
playing on a good hamstring, he's arguably the third best

(44:34):
overall offensive engine behind that Jokich Luka tier like. That's
how good he is. He was the very best high
volume pick and role player in the entire league last
year when he was healthy, the Pacers at an offensive
rating of one to twenty four. He is incredible at
consistently getting the defense in rotation, which makes everything easier
for everybody on the court. Halliburton is the guy that

(44:56):
you can't just look at the box score. He is
an offensive engine who complete consistently gets the defense and rotation.
It's similar to the Caitlin Clark thing. Like Caitland, Clark's
offensive impact cannot be quantified just by points and assists numbers.
Like Tyre's, Halliburton is one of the best offensive engines
in all of basketball. Tyre's Darren Fox, to me, is
one of the best guards in the league, but I

(45:18):
don't think he kind of falls into that top tier
offensive engine list like Tyre's Halliburton does. He's got a
lot of issues, which is why Halliburton and Fox are
still close despite that gap. However, I do think that
Holly and what he brings as an offensive engine gives
him the edge there. All right, guys, that's all I
have for today. We'll be right back tomorrow with another
two players kind of a Actually, I think this one's

(45:40):
actually gonna come out on Thursday. A really interesting debate
between two players that are kind of different archetypes, playing
in very different roles but bring very different things to
the table. But I kind of view them right next
to each other and you could debate either way. I'm
excited to get into that with you, guys. I'll see
you tomorrow. Also, last thing, I did do a video

(46:00):
on two Suns podcast talking about the news that The
Acolyte was canceled after season one. So me and Luke
talked for like thirty five minutes yesterday, just kind of
getting into all the details of what that means for
Star Wars again. You can find that wherever you find
your podcasts under two Sons or on YouTube under two
Sons Podcasts. I always appreciate when you guys support over
there as well. All right, thanks guys, thanks for rocking

(46:21):
with me and the support. I will see you guys.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
In a couple of days.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
The volume