November 27, 2024 • 60 mins
Episode Summary: A 5-Star Cider Experience
Step into an unforgettable 5-star cider dining experience with Eric Bordelet, one of the world’s most acclaimed cider and perry makers. Recorded during an intimate cider dinner as part of the French Cider Tour 2024, this episode offers an extraordinary glimpse into Eric’s legacy and his passion for crafting exceptional ciders. From his renowned gastronomic cuvées to his philosophy on terroir and tradition, listeners will enjoy a behind-the-scenes look at what makes Eric’s work legendary.
In this Cider Chat Episode
- Eric’s philosophy of terroir and its impact on crafting ciders and perrys.
- The art of creating cuvées, including sweet, demi-sec, and brut varieties.
- The revival of rare traditions like cormé cider (sorbus domestica).
- The importance of biodynamic orchard care and sustainable practices.
- Insights on aging cider and perry for complexity and balance.
Behind the Scenes of an Intimate Dinner
Recorded during a private dinner in Normandy, this episode captures the essence of 5-star cider dining. As Eric poured his celebrated ciders and perrys, he shared stories of his sommelier roots, the influence of terroir, and his vision for cider-making’s future. It’s a rare opportunity to learn from one of the world’s top cider makers in a truly personal setting.
More Eric Bordelet Episodes on Cider Chat
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Never shake the bloody tree.
Just because it's too strong.
This is the way you can't shake it.
All the trees just said, thank you.
Hello, my name is Ria Windcaller andI am the producer and Cider MC of this
(00:23):
weekly podcast, where we speak withmakers, Cider enthusiasts and folks within
the cider trade from around the world.
Don't shake the apple tree says EricBordelet who brought us into this
year episode 435 of a Cider Chat.
That was a little clip from a longerpresentation that he delivered from When
(00:49):
he put on his sommelier hat once againduring the French cider tour, you know,
if you've been following along Cider Chatsince I returned from France in September,
Well, actually I returned in October.
Yeah, I went to Franceand I went to the UK.
We're going to be talking all about that.
Just, just hang in there.
Make sure you press the subscribe buttonbecause you don't want to miss everything
(01:13):
that happened, all the episodes coming outand what's going to be happening in 2025.
But before I get there, letme just bring you up to date.
If you're new to the podcast, I havebeen talking about this cider dinner
that Really was a moment in time forme and I have a feeling for a lot
of people at the table, too It wasa moment where I had an epiphany.
(01:35):
I saw clearly exactly how cider and foodpairings should work all all encapsulated
in that one moment and really I Igive all the credit to Eric because he
certainly really up leveled my game inthat way, which is why you could go back
(01:56):
last week's episode and the week before.
The week before was the ultimate guidefor pairing cider and Thanksgiving.
So it gave you a whole bunch ofdifferent ideas for pairing your food.
And then last week's episodewas on Michelin star chef.
I recorded with Ivan Vautier,who is a Michelin star chef.
(02:18):
He's based in the city of Caen,which is in Normandy, France.
And that also is just kindof on that same thread, that
same thread of cider and food.
But with Eric.
Despite all that like previous work andeven the conversation with Michelin star
chef, I had never really experienced,and, and those of you out there in
(02:41):
Ciderville know me, you know, I've hadsome experiences, you know, this is a
field in Cider, I've been, I've beenin this world for quite a while, and
I've had many Cider dinners, includingsome that I have hosted, but with Eric,
I totally got to see it in a differentway and I'm hoping I could kind of
(03:01):
keep on helping others see that too,because I know Out there, we all know
how magnificently cider pairs with food.
It just moves the dial up, all the way up.
The heat is on when you are justhitting it, right on the perfect
(03:23):
accompaniment, with the exact spices,the intensity of the food, be it
like a dessert or a little starter.
Oh yeah.
So we really did it.
And anyways, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, this is, this is what happenswhen you go on a Totally Cider Tour and
boy, did we really hit, hit it out ofthe park that day with Eric Bordelet.
(03:46):
So you're going to be hearing that.
I have some clips.
Of course it can do the wholedinner because this was yet another
cider dinner that started somewherearound, um, I think six o'clock.
We had Eric talking to us for aboutan hour, bringing out once again,
all these like cellar, uh, vintages.
In fact, I have one in my little Chay isa word that they use in France for cellar.
(04:11):
Two thousand and seven.
Sidra Argelette
2007 that is no wow wow and I tasted it atthe table and when he said Ria I have this
bottle for you I was like yeah and it madeMade it all the way from France to the
UK and then back to New England with me.
(04:34):
Safe and Sound the bottle itselfhas no label on it because he
pulled it out of the cellar.
And it looks like it has some blowoff from the cider, like that what
got onto the bottle and it stuck thereand being the artist that he is and.
Appreciating, you know, ourboth creative kind of mindset.
He just, I'm just leaving thison for you and here, enjoy it.
So I'll get a, I'll definitely get a photoof that somewhere up on social media.
(04:59):
You'd enjoy it too, because I knowif you're listening to Cider Chat,
you have that, that pulse of anartist, you know, this year we're
looking for the exquisiteness.
of life.
Yes, that's what we're looking for.
And um, yeah, you're going to enjoythis and you'll have to kind of
like tune your ear a little bit,listening to Eric because you know,
he's not a native English speaker.
(05:20):
He really delivered.
Yeah.
You're going to love it.
I'll talk a little bit more aboutthat as we get into that featured
conversation or featured presentation.
It was basically the recorder wasright on the table and he went to town.
Damn.
I mean, when you have a.
a person such as Eric who hadbeen the top sommelier in Paris.
(05:45):
Just think about that for a minute.
The top
sommelier in Paris, who then became acider maker, who is now in retirement
mode, kind of chilling out, relaxing,enjoying his life, able to like,
start seeing the possibility ofpassing his domain on to his children.
(06:09):
That is the goal.
That is what he is doing.
And then he comes to dinner.
And he's down in the cellarand he's super stoked because
he's gone to the restaurant.
He's tasted the product.
He knows what's going to go perfectly withthe dish that is being offered, pulling
out of his little treasure trove, thatexquisite cider or Poiré for that moment.
(06:35):
This is like beyond pinch me moment.
I don't know.
This is like, uh, I don't know.
Maybe I was taken down intothe ocean with the aliens.
I don't know.
I, I'm still wowed by it.
You know, it's like, uh, like two monthslater, I'm still wowed by that experience.
I just saw the light.
Yeah.
And, uh, I'm sticking to my story.
(06:57):
All right.
So we'll be getting to that again.
I'll talk a little bit more and Iwant to say welcome to Cider Chat.
If you're new to the podcast, definitelyhit the subscribe button, follow Cider
Chat on all the different social mediachannels on Facebook, on Instagram.
It's Cider Chat at CiderVille.
Uh, Think there's a bluesky account right now.
Haven't really postedanything there, but we will.
(07:18):
And of course on threads,yada, yada, yada.
It's all good.
And so good to have you out therein Ciderville following along.
So hang in there because we'll get tothat Eric Bordelet cider dinner shortly.
But first, as always, we have awee bit of news from out and about.
in Ciderville.
(07:38):
Okay, Ciderville, let's talk a CiderCon2025 because if you are involved in any
way in the cider world and listen tothis podcast, you got to know that this
is the event to mark on your calendar.
It takes place February 4th throughthe 7th, and we're taking over Chicago
for an unforgettable experience.
And guess what?
(07:59):
We're I've got a special dealjust for Cider Chat listeners,
so stay tuned for that.
This year's theme isCider's Balanced Future.
Planet.
People.
Profit.
It's all about the triple bottom line,ensuring Cider's future is not just
profitable, but sustainable for ourplanet and the people making it happen.
(08:20):
On the planet side, you'll find cuttingedge sessions like the one with Carlos
Flores on creating an experimental foodforest in a Chilean heritage orchard,
exploring biodiversity in apple growing,and Ashley Lindsey sharing farming
practices to optimize orchard soil health.
And from Massachusetts,our own Elizabeth Garofalo.
(08:43):
Diving into balanced orchardsustainability through
integrated pest management.
There's even a panel on waste reductionand sustainability, featuring insight
from Schilling Cider and Angry Orchard.
Finn River, Santa Cruz, and KeepsakeCider are all about covering solutions
for both big and small cideries.
And you know what?
This is just scratching thesurface of what's going to be
(09:05):
offered, so don't miss out.
Register now at ciderassociation.
org and be sure to use the promocode CiderChat at the checkout
for 30 off your registration
Just look at the additional registrationinformation section on the form.
This code is case sensitive, sotype it exactly as you hear it.
(09:28):
CiderChat one word and two capitalC's and the rest lowercase.
Or go to the show notes for thisyear episode 435 and see exactly
how to copy that promo code.
Remember, It's time tosign up for CiderCon 2025.
Check it all out at the CiderAssociation.
org website today.
(09:51):
It's time for
Who's Been Cross Promoting Cider?
If you have shared an episode from CiderChat out to your fans, to your social
media, or perhaps you have downloadedthe PDF that you can find at CiderChat.
com at the support page,you just post that.
in your tasting room, you take a photo,
(10:12):
and it lists all the ways thatCider Chat is helping to educate
everyone out there in Ciderville,not just enthusiasts or folks enjoy
cider, but hopefully makers too.
And then post it on yoursocial media thread.
We in turn, get to talk aboutyou and soon there'll be.
(10:33):
featuring this very topicabout cross promotion.
And every time you mentioned cider chat,we want to be able to return the favor.
So I think it's just a winwin all the way around.
And it's been busy this past yearsince I first initiated this little
campaign here, been trying to keepit all together on an Excel file.
I think I kind of lost my way a littlebit while I was overseas traveling
(10:56):
about, but I'm catching up here.
And most recently.
We saw that there was a postfrom the same organization, but
they have two different threads.
One is, well, exactly, we justtalked about the American Cider
Association who hosts CiderCon.
On Instagram, At Pick Cider andthey mentioned on their story,
(11:18):
the little gobble, gobble, gobble,gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble.
A piece that we had all about the ultimateguide for pairing cider for Thanksgiving.
And then shared that newepisode to their Facebook page.
So thank you very much for that.
You know, we just love theAmerican Cider Association and
everything they're doing there.
And Upcoming, we are going to havean episode with Michelle McGrath,
(11:41):
who is the current CEO of the ACA.
And she has some info for everybody.
If you haven't heard, she's going tobe moving on to a new position outside
of the American Cider Association andwhat that looks like, and also her
thoughts on CiderCon and other good news.
It's always special tohave Michelle in the house.
(12:02):
So do look forward to that.
that episode coming up.
And we also saw that Spacetime Meadand Ciderworks, which is based in
Dunmore, Pennsylvania, once againshared to their Facebook page, the
most recent episode of Cider Chat.
So thank you very much for that sharing.
You too can join this, just postout there into social media,
(12:24):
wherever you use social media.
If you can use the hashtag X promotecider and we will get notified, tag
Cider Chat and we take those photos,download it and we want to be able to
share who you are and the good news on theupcoming episode all on cross promotion.
It's kind of a nice feel good thingto do for everyone so yeah, get
(12:47):
in on it and cross promote cider.
today.
Up next is our featuredpresentation with Eric Bordelet.
This was recorded at the cider dinneras part of the French Cider Tour 2024.
(13:07):
And I'm Kind of imagining as youlisten to this, you might get a sense
of what a Totally Cider Tour is.
Uh, I will, I think I could brag, it'skind of magnificent in so many ways, but
you know, if you haven't, or if you haveany questions, I should say, definitely
go back a couple episodes where youcould hear folks who were just on this
(13:27):
tour talking about their experienceand I'll put a link in the show notes
to that, or just go to cider chat.
com in the little search boxand put French cider tour and
you should get some info there.
Needless to say, yes, Cider Chatdoes offer Cider Tours, both
internationally and nationally, andwe call them Totally Cider Tours,
(13:49):
and we are planning one for 2025.
Where's it going?
Well, uh, I'm not going to say just yet.
There's some folks who do knowbecause they have put their
name on the wait list already.
That's how it goes.
People go on a Totally Cider Tourand they want to go on the next one.
(14:11):
I always have something in myback pocket, so to speak, ready
to go out and about in Ciderville.
When the calling is thus, and, andright now the calling for all of
us is to roll to this conversationright now with Eric Bordelet.
We're going to go right into it.
What the setup was is we met for dinner.
We're on one long table and Erichad arrived early to talk to
(14:33):
the chef and to set things up.
And, uh, He wanted to speak forabout an hour before we had dinner.
So we were just kind of tasting theciders and then we had the dinner
and, uh, that was just incredible.
And then he left and then AgatheLetellier was there cause she had joined
our tour for that evening and she wasin the living room and we just had a,
(14:56):
like a fireside chat with Agathehe.
It was incredible, equally incredible.
But this one, we're focusing allon Eric, although you'll hear him
mentioned at the very end when he'stalking about Calvados, because he was
using the same distiller as Agathe.
And there's kind of a fun antidote there.
Uh, a couple of things.
You'll hear me whisper to himat one moment, are you going
(15:18):
to talk about minerality?
And he'll say, yes.
And there's going to be a momentwhere he's talking about the
sugar content in perry and howit changes from year to year.
And this was one of those reallyimportant pieces for me because
I had noticed how Bordelet poiréwas getting sweeter and sweeter.
And I'm not a big sweet toothfor fermented beverages.
(15:41):
I'm not really keen on that.
And he explained that a bit.
And now I get it.
I understand it.
I really saw.
The range when he was bringingout different vintages.
So that was a big wake up call for me.
And he'll also talk about.
A bocage and what a bocage is, isit really is a Norman word from
(16:03):
old Norman bocage means wood.
So you'll hear him mention that.
So if you're not familiar withthat word, that's what that means.
And I think that's about it.
We're going to just kind of do alittle deep dive in here, hear about
the art of blending as he sees it, alittle bit of a story about Cormier.
A.
K.
A.
Sorbus Domestica, and he does talkabout biodynamic farming, and why
(16:31):
or why not he doesn't talk aboutit, doesn't lead forward, and some
also personal reflections on turninga new leaf, retiring, and letting
his, his children take over, andhow he works that into his life.
So, a lot here in a little tiny bit.
Enjoy this and really truthfully Iwish you were there sitting next to
(16:52):
all of us with a glass in your hand.
So I'm going to imagine you doing that nowwherever you are out there in the world
as you grab a glass and join this chatwith Eric Bordelet of Normandy, France.
I start by the , SidreTendrewhich is a sweet sider.
Okay.
We have three thirsty cuvee and threegastronomic, cuvee gastronomic.
(17:16):
Cuvée means the the same blend everyyear, so the same quantity of each via.
For the, the blend for the GastronomyCuvée, apple, pear, or cormé.
Never mix the fruit, different kindof fruit, like cormé, apple, or pear.
I mix apple, 20 kind of apple,15 kind of pear, and 12 of cormé.
(17:37):
But never mix this.
I like to keep the pure apple,for example, the roots of
the pear tree going far away.
That's why it's double acidity.
And of course the branch is goingup, but for the apple, most of
the time the apple tree is like anumbrella, and the roots are the same.
(17:58):
So that's why I don't like to mix.
And the corm, it's another, it's bothways, . So that's why I I don't like
to mix, and I'm worried sometimesabout when I see hops with cider.
It's difficult for me.
But it's only me, the problem, okay?
So, we start with a sweet cider.
The thirsty cider, we have thesweet, the demi sec, and the brut.
(18:22):
In January, we blend the vat ofSeptember, October, November December, St.
Bern, in a big one.
After two weeks, we take the firstpart, To stop the fermentation and
it is this produce, produit, SidreTendre, three, four degrees of alcohol.
Two months after we take thesecond part and it's brut tendre.
Okay, and two more months it's brut.
(18:44):
Today I bring the sweet and the brut.
And after we have the gastronomycuvée Sidre Argelette.
Voilà.
What else?
About geology?
It's a Schidst andgranite cooked together.
It's 200 meters large and it'shalf way of the hill going to the,
the La Mayenne, the, the river.
And when you understand about Burgundy,in the middle of the half way, it's called
(19:09):
demi ponte, it's Grand Cru most of thetime because the complexity geologic, it's
much more interesting for the, the plant.
Any plant, grapes, apple is the same.
If you have the same variety on,only on granite, on the hill, or the
one with near the river, the samevariety, The fruit is not so nice.
(19:33):
Maybe too much problem.
In the middle, it's, it's goodbalance, and near the river, it's
bigger fruit, with the same variety,and it's not so much concentration.
It's because I have passed as awaiter, but after in a logical
way, sommelier, And after the wineschool, before to start the cider.
So that's why all I have my,my feeling, emotion, it's,
(19:56):
it's like a wine, a winemaker.
Well, that's some difference, but that'svery important because I catch maximum,
with a winemaker everywhere in France.
We have enough and Italy anddifferent place about cider.
You have been to learn the method.
Champagne was in Quebec.
But that was interesting and to seehow the evolution of cider was very
(20:20):
high level compared with France.
So France comes slowly about this.
But anyway.
You can start by the sweet ciderthat's , 2023 should be exactly.
Usually I have the apple juice ciderapple juice, but I didn't bring today.
We don't have any more.
We, we, in two monthswe will have some more.
(20:42):
I like to present the apple, thecider apple juice, exactly the juice.
We have before the fermentation.
And as well, it's interesting for maybeto teach some kids, some people, what is
the difference between the cider you, theapple you eat and the apple cider we use.
(21:03):
40 percent of sweet apple, 40 percentof bitter apple, and 20 That's the way
we plant in, in Normandy and Brittany.
But some people can do some sweetcider with sweet apple, but me,
it's always the sommelier behindthere, and he taste all the time.
I learned my job, not in the rightway, but tasting, it was always
(21:27):
the, the link about my, my job.
Taste before, taste after.
So it's the same juice.
And I just stopped the fermentationafter step after step, but it's
just the sugar make the difference.
The brute have the same balance, bitterapple, sweet apple, but I don't want to
make a sweet cider only with sweet apple.
It's just my expectation about thesommelier expect to have the balance.
(21:53):
Even sweet or brut.
The balance is the most important.
It's my feeling.
Voila.
Okay?
We, we like?
Yes.
About balance, we can say the mostof time I produce it's one hundred
twenty, one hundred thirty, depends onthe advantage, gram by liter of sugar.
(22:16):
About this This cider, it's maybe30 to 50, depends on the vintage.
The balance.
So, 30 gram or 50, depends onthe vintage, gram by liter, stay.
The fructose stay in this one.
We stop the fermentation.
We didn't add it.
The only thing we added is SO2 sometimes.
(22:38):
To, to, to have a regular SO2.
Between 50 and 80 milligrams by liter.
I found my balance after a few years.
I taste with more, with less,but I can't not use at all.
And there is different kind of SO2, eh?
You have the, the, the liquid one,and you have as well, we use the,
the one we burn, like they used to doit in, in a barrel a long time ago.
(23:02):
It's just to protect.
As soon we touch the fruit, we protect.
So that's why, you know.
And especially there is a winemakerwho helped me a lot to open many box.
It's Didier Dagueneau, who wasquite the master of Sauvignon.
Because he was very, clean techniqueand he do many trial, like I have
done , and he phone me every two weeks.
(23:24):
I didn't understand why, but he, he knewwhat trouble I will get and it take me 15
years to have , what the sommelier expectand what, what winemaker expect, you
know, take, take me 15 years to understandyour fruit, your terroir, your fruits,
your And technically, it's complex.
(23:45):
I forgot to say, everyfruit is chosen by hand.
One by one.
Three months of the harvest.
Start two weeks ago, andit starts the biggest job.
Twelve to sixteen people.
I should tell at the beginning,but it makes sense for me
to, to, to work that way.
(24:05):
Perfect.
So now it's a brute.
I didn't bring, bring a bruton.
I don't want you to confuse you toomuch, but it's just between this, okay?
If you, you can, if you don'twant to drink all, you can put in
your, in, in the water, a glassand after we take off, okay?
Because This thing, it's notnecessary to drink all because
(24:29):
The other glass, itshould be for the Perry.
That's why I have two glasses.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Voila.
.Right.
Voila.
You have some interestingstuff as well during the meal.
I bring different things.
So, I want you to taste all.
If you don't Don't worry,you just split in in this.
Voila.
Comme ça.
Okay?
Super.
(24:49):
Are you going to talk about it?
Well, why not?
But after, because I keep this for Perry.
Oh, okay.
There you go.
About the geology, I can saythat I, I, I have explained
granite and Schist cook together.
There you go.
And it's a red Schidst.
Like your argelette, that's thename of the cuvee we have next.
Argelette, that's a red schidst only.
(25:11):
But where we are, it's a mixture.
And as well, you have argelette.
Red schidst like this you have in inRiesling, in, in Ringo, in Ringo, Germany.
You have in North Rhone Valleyand some place in Loire Valley,
Muscadet, or Léon, and everything.
About cider, we can setthe color and everything.
The smoky taste, you can discover a littlebit more afterwards with , the argelette,
(25:33):
because the next cuvee, it's gastronomic,it's more complex and more, maybe, this
one is just brut, and could be three orfour more years, it could be better for
the brut, better, it's just brut, lessthan seven grams by liter of sugar, voila.
But it's Cider in Normandy and Brittany,it's more about the conservation, we can
(25:56):
say, to age, it's the tannin who makethe produce keep going and structure.
A, the tannin, most of time,it's a tannin like a red.
Because we are 40 percentof a bitter apple.
And that's why I, I hope to havethe, the tannin to age the cider.
(26:16):
And for the perry, it'sthe acidity who make aging.
And minerality and everything.
But, it's not the same minerality.
Minerality about smoky,rocky, the, the Schiffer.
And after, for the, the granite.
So, it's more deeper and more.
Like a white wine acidity minerality.
So that's why.
Mm-Hmm.
(26:36):
. I recommend most of time to havea glass insider to have a red wine
glass, especially the gas Argelette.
Big time Sierra glass for the lid,or the bo glass because needs space
to, to breathe and not to, to cold.
So, the thirsty cuvée it's okay, but thenext one it will be like a red burgundy.
(26:58):
The perry, it doesn't care.
Five degrees is still enjoyable becauseit's double acidity and it's more
interesting when it's cold as well.
It doesn't break the, the, the flavor.
Of Argelette.
It's 22, and Argelette, it's a gastronomycuvee, and you can see most of time when
I start my job, people, it was a veryrubbish packaging inside in France, and
(27:20):
I tried to do the shape of Dom Pérignonand for the Paris, the shape of Creux.
So it's, the sommeliers are moreproud to serve those bottles
on the gastronomic restaurant.
And I keep of coursethe shape and and voila.
So Argelette, it's, need , tobreathe, you just have to move
and do oxygen, it's interesting.
And during the meal as well, we willhave all the Argelettes, so you have
(27:46):
to remind how it's, So it's, it iswhen it's young and you will see a few
years after what's, it could happen.
It could.
Huh.
Voila.
And 20, this is 2022?
22.
It was very dry that year.
No, no, no, no, no, no, Ijust you mean about sugar?
No, the, the, the season, theseason was it like very dry?
(28:06):
Ah, the season.
The, the, ah oui, thatmeans very sunny year.
So I called sunny year or wet year.
This year is Normandy year, normalyear, and 22 was difficult to build up
because the fruit get very warm whenit's sunny and not too much grass.
So , we select a lot.
(28:27):
And we leave a lot of fruit on the floor.
Some vintage like 2003.
I just take the maximum fruit.
And I didn't care about the CD cap.
And I think for, for, to havethe maturity for feno Perfect.
You have to have the, the, to changeyour way, you pick up the fruit.
So it's Mm-Hmm, , you haveto be careful about this.
(28:47):
So we ca we do for thePerry and Argelette.
So for last five seven Vintage,it's more better balance.
Like 2003, or 2010, it was celebrated,you can feel it's more like honey or
more like caramel, you can feel it so,but I think you will see during the
meal, what's happened a few years after.
(29:08):
It's interesting.
But when I bottled this cuvee, it'snever dry or sweet when it's a good
balance ready to bottled, I do it.
So it could change, depends on the year.
I don't want people, if I put brutor semi, demi sec on this cuvee,
I don't want people remember this.
I do the balance like the terroir with thebest or the best explanation of the fruit.
(29:35):
Expression, you can say.
So, voila.
So, Argelette, I'm very free todo what I want in this cuvee.
But for last seven years,it's very more precise.
For myself, that's mymy knowledge about this.
Voila.
Different vintage, I wasmore Subir than, than react.
(29:56):
So, after experryence,I, I know how to react.
So, voila.
But very sunny vintage 22.
Voilà.
So it's pear.
150%.
Because we use very small pear,so that's why I said 150%.
It's voilà.
You can feel it's more acidity,double acidity and minerality
(30:21):
like a white wine for me.
So white wine glass,Riesling glass, it's perfect.
Voilà.
You can have some flavor of sauvignonsometimes, depends on the vintage, but I
don't, the most important, like I said,is to pick up the food in the right time
for the maturity phenolic we call, but inthe cellar it's quite similar approach or,
(30:42):
or not too much difference in the cellar.
Of course, the clarification is mucheasier for the perry, but sometimes
it's not because we still have somesweet pear sometimes, only sweet.
So the skin is very.
He pe and ery and we have veryparticular and special fruit sometimes.
(31:03):
But anyway at the end ofthe day, it is the acidity.
Wow.
That's why I hate to mix.
Some people do, but it's confusing after.
And I have to explain as well, take 100years for a pear tree to become adult.
25 for apple trees, butin a traditional way.
(31:23):
And that's a big problem, butanyway, it's We still plant tea
too, and we still plant every year.
And graft, and as well but in 20years, we'll have 40 of different
apples, 40 of different pear.
And we, we still improve the, the,the combinaison, or the orchard.
But it takes maybe two generationsto build up the orchard.
(31:46):
Voilà.
That's very important.
That's why, maybe, we have In this area,this area, it's 40 kilometers, square
meters, and it's I think the, the uniqueplace about how you can say, individu, or
different with a variation of pear trees.
They do, now, some in Brittany are Paysd'auge, but Pays d'auge is not the same.
(32:11):
So the pair doesn't like toomuch Argilocalcare sometimes.
And I don't know exactly,but it's not the history.
And, and that's why on my vat,I have a mammoth design because
I want to sell people the pair.
The tree was there in the prehistorictime, before the apple tree.
So, that's why here it'sthe, the, the, the noyo, or I
(32:32):
don't know, noyo, you can say.
It's the, the, the.
Roots.
The roots of the noyo, voila.
It's like to have a PinotNoir in Burgundy, eh?
Noyo is a pit.
We can have some Pinot Noir in south ofFrance, but it's not the same balance.
Don't say it's bad, say it's balanced.
(32:54):
I wanted to express, because it was notused in France, about terroir and rocks.
The plants love some rocks, andit starts in the rocks anyway.
So that's why it was interesting totalk about geology in this job, I think.
Yes, we have two geologists.
So you can discover it's22, before it was 23.
(33:17):
So you can catch thedifference of the vintage.
But, first of all, I should bringa 23, but most of time, granite, of
course, blend, make, makes The balancemuch more precise and our complex
and you can feel it's more creamy.
It's because of course the blendand different the balance of
(33:40):
the different variety togethermakes something more complex.
But as well, the vintage22 was more sunny vintage.
, we, most of time granite is take one yearbefore to sell because it's I'll explain.
It's called in a, in aperry, it's oxidoreduction.
(34:01):
It's H2S.
So it's going reverse and oxidation.
And it's good sign when youhave oxidoreduction because It's
the yeast produces SO2 and it'sprotect, because it's sensitive,
our produce to oxidation, voila.
What can I say?
Granite, it's, voila.
You will see as well.
(34:21):
During the meal, have a granite,but older as well, to see
how it's going, it's aging.
What can I say as well I don't liketo have the bubbles, Straight away
and too much CO2, but it's just me.
For me, if you have too muchgas, so many farmer side.
(34:43):
I've done farmer cider the firsttwo years, but the gas, the
CO2 mask, they are aromatic.
So that's why for me it is justa, well, it's like a cremo,
three to four kilos maximum.
And it's much more enjoyablewhen you have some food,
And while I didn't want to createtoo much Perry, just The balance is
(35:04):
like this I want people to forgetthe sugar has to be a good balance.
And if it's granite 23 andauthentic 23, the same balance.
Granite 22 or authentic22, the same balance.
Because some people said, Oh, it's moresugar in in a granite, but it's wrong.
That's why I said it's more creamy.
(35:26):
On the analyze, it's more extra thick.
So it's more concentration, but it'snot by the sugar, it's by the body.
So it's very importantto set that for myself.
So you're still okay?
Concentrate for one more.
And after I wanted to If we're afterthe aperrytif, you can care about what
(35:50):
cuvee you have and the vintage specialty.
And that could be unusual maybe foryou, I don't know, but now I'm quite
old and I can't, in different fair,I like to show to many sommeliers
in France because they don't know.
Cider can age and perry can age.
So that's why I bring thosevintage and people, ugh!
It's very surprising.
(36:11):
But to, to age cider or perry you have tobe very good at control in your cellar.
Of course from the beginning, theharvest, but Technically you have
to be because if the bad yeast orbad bacteria there, it can't age.
But that was a challenge for myself.
(36:31):
And as well to age cider, I have differentchallenges in this life after 34 years.
Yeah.
What's the oldest perry you've selled?
What, how long is the longest,like, that you've sold this perry?
I will answer on the table later.
Okay.
The bottle will answer.
Okay.
, I can tell you 20, 30 years no problem.
(36:53):
But if I remember the before22,000, I think I was.
I was not so good as a maker, so itwas not good enough to, to age or some
problem arrived because I was too young.
But after those vintage, I thinkyou can keep it this, no problem.
Temperatures in the cellar?
Of course, has to be the, like awine, has to be a regular temperature,
(37:21):
not live in a, in a, in a fridge.
Not a variation too much, and yeah,it's possible as a wine anyway,
but we try our best about it.
We have a good cellar to age, but wecan't, we need some money to get back,
so we can't age too much produce.
Everybody knows that one.
Oui, of course.
(37:43):
Because we pay tax aswell, it's all about this.
For the next one, you have toclean your perryglass with water,
and you will discover Cormier.
Maybe people know.
Voila.
In our area here on the, we couldsay Loire Valley, we call it Cormier.
So it's Latin, sorbusdomestica, and it's a cuisine.
(38:04):
We can say under apple and pear,you have quince, and another
one I forgot, Medlar, maybe.
Medlar, but voila.
And it's quite, in Italy, they have sorbo,and in East of maybe Czechoslovakia,
or there's a different place in Sicily.
Anyway, so, and in Le Mans, traditionallyin Le Mans, they used to do this
beverage in the 15th century, until1950, and not too much trees left.
(38:30):
So but I'd start in 2007,17, this produce again.
And so it's called, you haveto be used to the cormé.
You have to open a new box becauseyou can't compare with anything
because you never taste the fruits.
And And the beverage, soyou just have to open.
And I like to present when it's young,it's just, it's 23, maybe six months
(38:53):
bottled, and it's, it's, it teach youhow the fruit is at the beginning.
And the fruit is like the shapeit's called piriform or maliform.
But it's a shape of apple or pear, butthe the skin is like a Sherry or Mirabel.
Very delicate.
Voilà.
(39:13):
So that's a story from2017 and we taste 2023.
And at the end of the meal wewill taste another vintage.
Voilà.
How big are the sorbs you're getting?
It's like cherry.
Like the size of the cork?
Half.
So, yeah, you have some picture, I havesome picture on my phone, but most of
(39:33):
the time the fruit is this side, maximumthis side, but it's half of this one.
Some, some, some are like beans, beans.
No, it's crazy.
It's not crab apple, please.
When I've been in university, they toldme it's crab apple, maybe, but it's not.
It's a real fruit.
Voilà.
Cormier, who make the cormé, thefruit, and the cormier, the beverage.
(39:57):
Wow.
That's super smooth.
Super smooth.
I love it.
It's special and unique and youjust have to open a new box.
Yeah.
And after the box open, you will taste the2018 and you will see and it's huge trees,
most of time three, four hundred years.
And leaves are quite different, that'swhy on the label I, I, I just put
(40:19):
the, the leaves because it's differentleaves compared with the apple or pear.
It was concentrated in Le Mans.
Le Mans was a provincebetween Normandy and Brittany.
And now they call something else.
Stupid.
But Le Mans was, there is a history,a flag and everything about Le Mans.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we are just on the limit.
Not far away.
(40:40):
So how do you harvest it?
With Harvest Pick.
But this start two weeks ago.
And how, how?
By hand.
All by hand.
I forgot to say we choose thefruit, but it, it's very high.
The tree.
So when you say by hand, are youclimbing the trees is when they.
Or on the ground, yeah, which is verylabor intensive for this type of thing.
(41:01):
Wait, wait, wait.
So you choose on the floor?
Never shake the bloody tree.
Just because it's too strong.
This is the other way.
You can't shake it.
All the trees just said thank you.
That's just what's peaking.
It's just me.
Some place they do.
They shake of course.
(41:22):
Different way
now.
We were in the the ciderbar in Paris on Sunday night
and had the 2021.
What a difference.
Wow.
Between the two.
(41:43):
The, it's young.
That spread at home and 21 startto be, but after one or two years,
it's close, it's getting close.
You need one, two years to recover again.
So I don't know, it's a longtime it didn't taste 21.
I forget one or two years and after.
And the first year was twenty eightSeventeen, twenty seventeen, that's right.
(42:07):
Because we tried it in twenty eighteen.
Twenty eighteen.
Perfect.
I forgot, if you have somequestions, no problem, I can answer.
Because the chef is notready before fifteen minutes.
Okay.
Okay?
So, can you talk a little bit moreabout minerality, because that, just
in terms of taste, it's a difficultthing to, to talk about, and you have
(42:32):
an incredible vocabulary for that.
And we are tasting it, but how doesone describe that, especially for
when you're trying to, reach anaudience and bring people into cider.
There's a lot of commercialmakers here, but there's also,
you know, cider enthusiasts.
So we're trying to, like, figure out,how do we, how do we explain the taste?
(42:52):
Like, we're getting a caramel insome of the the poirets, you know?
It's like, really pronounced.
How do you explain that?
Good luck.
No, I just, I have explained pieceby piece when I I think people, if
they understood the maturity phenolicthat I, I catch in, in, in, with
(43:16):
winemaker, that's the most important.
After, it's your terroir who is talking.
So, if you, you, to catch theterroir in a cider, you have to
believe choosing a good, Timing thethe fruit, okay, after you have to
follow your juice, to be clean,
if you are not clean, if you have toomuch yeast, you couldn't catch it.
(43:38):
You, you just catch the, the,the bread or the, the we call.
You can catch differentkind of minerality.
You have the one about the smoky taste Itold about Schidst and argido calcare from
with the calcare from the Pays d'Auge.
It's another kind of minerality.
We could say Pays d'Auge, it couldexpress the minerality like champagne.
(43:59):
Because there is many placescalcare in champagne as well.
The depends what kind of minerality oryou have on your ground, but as well you
like, but you, but you have to, to know,your geology, especially your fruit.
In the past, the old people was select thevariety was great in this area and succeed
(44:21):
because the via in Pedo doesn't succeed.
Maybe in our place, I,I know it's not succeed.
And if we can exactly.
You s in my place, in my variety.
In your place.
We won't have exactly the same things.
Because of the ground.
Of course, and it's important.
And we don't have the sea.
(44:42):
You have to see the ecosystem.
It's not only the roots.
It's as well the area,if near the sea or not.
You have observation like a peasant.
Observe, observe, observe.
That's a main point as well.
That's why observe what is the bestyou want to show from your area.
I always say to young people, Bloodyhell, you have an area, you, from
(45:03):
there, you have, everybody has torecognize where the cider's from.
That's why I don't like the bloody mixturewith oats or, or with Sierra, there
is some cider maker make with grapes.
I don't know how youwork, but I, I, it's me.
We have a whole spectrum here on that.
You know, as usual, as usual, I havethe whole spectrum of people doing that.
Yeah, but you're sayingthat's what you do.
(45:26):
And that's what's really criticalto know is Eric has his own style
and yes, but I want to explainif you want to develop cider like
we talk about in the restaurant.
You have to develop your, yourecosystem, your terroir from your place.
You have the identity of yourplace or yourself from your place.
(45:46):
That's the only future for the cider.
If you start to do likeindustrial, do mixed and mixed
cocktail, there is this way.
Actually, that's why I'mquite, I know about this.
And cider, the other part, the cidercan evolve if this condition, I think.
We have the answer just to observe thenature where you're from and and if you
(46:07):
plant new stuff it's, it's, it's Youhave to think about different you have
to have a lot of knowledge to, to knowwhat kind of fruits develop in your area.
It's a lot in France,we may be lucky as well.
Not some, sometimes because traditionis heavy, but in the same time, the
old people was working for a longtime in this, with this place, and
(46:29):
plant, craft, and observe, observe.
That's the main point.
Wine, it's so easy, in three yearsyou have grapes and you can make wine.
In Normandy there is grapes now, andin Brittany they put grapes everywhere.
But I don't know, it's justto make fun, or, I don't know.
But I think we're all in agreement.
(46:50):
Well, I'm going to say in agreement,because on this tour, we have been to
all these different regions, , in Paysd'auge Breton and circling, you know, in
Domfront, then circling back to Domfront.
And I think everyone here wouldsay each Each region, each little
spot, had their uniqueness, andthat's why we're doing this tour,
to affirm exactly what you're saying.
(47:12):
That's the beauty of visitingeach maker and seeing, holy
smokes, castle, guildeau.
And, you know, having a ciderthere was It's so different than
coming down here into this region.
You're not in Domfrontais,you're in Mayenne.
Five, five, five hundredmeters from the Appellation.
(47:33):
Oh, geez.
Ay, ay, ay.
Right?
But that's how it goes.
That's why I don't putDomfrontais on my label.
It's not fair.
It's not fair.
They didn't accept me.
They don't want me in the band.
So, because five hundred meters.
And the geology is the same.
I could understand geology different.
But it's people who was in chargewas not open minded this time.
That's politics.
Yeah, politics.
But it's a big problem as well.
(47:54):
It's a problem, I agree.
It's one of the main problem.
Yeah.
People decide for you.
That's not fair.
So that's why I wanted todecide many things for myself.
Yeah.
And not have subventionfrom the Europe stuff.
And you have many help, but youare not free to do what you want.
So that's another problemin, in, in Europe, in France.
(48:15):
Can you talk about would you talkabout Oh, I think I've talked enough.
No, you haven't, we have, wehave a question down here.
I'm just interested in,you talk about soil.
Oui.
What about, in the United States,we call it cultural practices.
So what is happening in the orchard?
What's a planted around the trees?
What do you spray on the trees?
How are you Me?
in the trees, in the orchard?
How does orchard care?
I just keep the old age, agees.
(48:37):
Okay.
all the local chestnut or different trees.
And we practice biodynamic from 96,but for the ground, but it's not the
main point AB, we do organic for theplant, but it's not the main point.
And we don't want to beknown by, by this only.
We want to be more large and to, toobserve, but I, I I would explain, no,
(49:01):
just respect, try to respect the areabecause the neighbors doesn't care.
He has a tree.
He cut that.
On this limit.
They don't care.
And we try to have to keep the,the bocage normal, bash normal.
It takes many generation to build thisbocage, this ecosystem with the insect.
And it's worried me about this,this, and if you have a nice
(49:24):
area, that's the first point.
The, the balance of the ecosystem.
Mm-hmm.
. But that it's a lot of work.
And, and if the generation beforecut everything, change the ecosystem.
No chance, I think, to work too much.
Or you need chemical, you know.
I, I actually want totalk about work too much.
So, retiring for, for you, I,I see it's it's just difficult.
(49:50):
And there are, you know, alldifferent kinds of levels of people
where they're at here in this room.
So, do you have any advice for somebodywho has a cidery and they're thinking
about retiring take me more energyto transmit transmission and retiring
because I have to accept first and mymind is, he want to build up another
(50:12):
place, but my energy is knackered.
My body can't.
But anyway, Transmission takes me 3 4years to Juridically, fiscally, you have
different points and Psychologically,that's the most important Because,
and especially in the family, becauseit's my boy Julian He's worked with
(50:33):
me 8 years, Roman a few years, butIt's, it's, it's It's a lot of work.
It's, it's, it's has to be prepared.
We, we asked a company who is specializedto with, it's a referee who manage
everyone, the character of everyone.
That's the point, but thepoint but it take a long time.
(50:55):
He has to be prepared.
Like I prepared a cider, I think.
And because you have to, to teach aswell, they have to understand you.
My kids have to understand.
For a long time, theythey, they listen to me.
How do you get them excited?
Because I know some people here, youknow, want their kids and then the
kids kind of like, don't get excited.
(51:16):
So, is there like, Some good advicehere because I just exchange all the
time, show my emotion to my kids.
They catch it quickly.
And I was surprised that two, threeyears ago they decided to say, okay,
but so that's mean, I've done somework, but it's a big, it's heavy stuff.
(51:42):
Now, were they going offand doing other things?
I mean, cause sometimes that'sthe advice is allow them to
go try something else to see.
I don't know, but they have thedecision now, but I still been
involved for a part anyway.
It's not.
That, yeah, we have different exchangenow we share if each one bring
a If you have a problem, bring asolution, and we discover, it's not
(52:02):
mine, it's not Julian's solution.
He's just in the middle of the solution.
So it's great.
I have to enjoy because it's Iused to take this side in five
minutes and to see tack, tack, tack.
But now it's another work, butit start by myself a long time.
Well, I could see you actually lookless stressed than I've ever seen.
No, I see he's lookinglike healthier than ever.
(52:26):
This like the first time I'm like, Youknow, this guy actually looks like he's
retiring a little bit, but just a look.
I can't I can't believe it.
Yeah, no, but anyway, I just want tosay as well succeed I was thinking about
this today is I sacrifice my privatelife as well because Very hard time my
(52:49):
kids show me all the time at work BecauseI was doing in a restaurant 12 years,
but it's lunch and dinner, 12, 13, 14hours a day, and, but with big chef, so
I learn a lot, but a lot of energy, butI, I, I still continue the same rhythm,
but anyway, I'm, I'm done, I'm, I, tocreate and to do all the time at work.
(53:13):
I, I can't do something else,all or nothing, so, voila.
So, I think I was done for this.
And but not to continue.
I don't have any energy too much.
And my kid would be very good to structureto have a better balance for, for, for
structure, structuring and continue.
They realize what is on and because theyhave traveled, they have been abroad.
(53:36):
They have lived in Australia.
They have traveled everywhereand they have some.
They exchange with their kids.
They have been workingwith some winemakers.
So they, they, it's outside theyunderstood what I've done, not at home.
So it's taken, I always suggest to goabroad to, to learn another language
because it's open box here and mind.
(54:00):
Yeah, that's good advice.
I don't know, but it's I will explainthis different stuff, different clue.
But no, but it's a longprocess, like the cider.
Well, good luck to that.
But now I have the chance to present,it's just a few weeks ago, the Calvados,
the first Calvados will be out, so in U.
(54:21):
S., so hopefully will be in December,at least, with PM Sperry to New York.
One guy is just to all U.
S., and and he was the first CalvadosI've done, it was the Monsieur Jean Pierre
Ferrand, who worked as well to, Agatheheplaced for a long time and 7th generation
distillator and he teach me a lot.
(54:42):
He, he was Incredible person andvery, very well very interesting.
Difficult to manage, but Impossible.
Impossible, but So rich person aboutCalvados, aging, and everything.
He didn't want to come, it's too far fromPays d'Age, it's five hours in tractor.
(55:04):
I have to take a tractor.
Are you kidding me?
He didn't want to put hismachine on a truck, on a tractor,
five hours from Pays d'Age.
No, no, no.
It was a sketch, in June.
We stay at home three weeks and weall know it wasn't And after we we put
the machine to your place or before Idon't know but wow, that's why we know
(55:25):
each other Oh my goodness Yeah, yeah,yeah seven generation So many stories,
anecdotes, all about distillation, becausedistillation in Pays d'Auge, it's a real,
the roots of distillationof Calvados are here.
(55:49):
Yeah.
But I wanted to, because in myarea, it's single distillation, but
I wanted to double with the Perry.
only, or the apple only,you know, in the wild.
So you're just following what thisparticular region is doing versus, like,
in Pays d"auge because of the regionality.
Double distillation for me.
It's, I want, even if it's70 percent of alcohol, I want
(56:12):
to smell and smell the fruit.
And with double distillation,it's really good.
Right.
With single, you get the bad Ester.
That's why I'm, it's just my,my, my nose will make the meat
to expect a double distillation.
I didn't make enough tohave my own distillation.
It's just too expensive.
And what I saw the first Calvadosis aging from 96 and 99 in Paris.
(56:36):
So, next year you will see ifyou meet in some place, yeah.
Today was not a point, not yet.
Mm hmm, not yet, okay, great.
And, the barrels, the whatkind of wood are you using for?
Ah, oak, oak barrel only.
French oak?
Oui.
French oak is good.
I didn't want to try and I didn'twant to take too much risk.
(56:58):
Huh.
Some, I knew some winemakers have avery good tonnelier, so I just choose
the tonnelier because he serve some,I suppose if he serve winemaker, very
good winemaker, he must do good barrel.
Really?
Yeah.
Eric was on fire.
I just want to say it was so nice tosee him relaxed feeling content and
(57:21):
really in his stride Just really aginglike a fine bottle of cider and before
I roll out of here I just want to putone more little reminder to anyone out
there going to cider con 2025 when yougo to the website cider association
org Don't forget to use that promo codeCiderChat, all one word, two capital
(57:45):
C's, for 30 off your registration.
And while you're online, and you areperhaps shopping for some holiday
gifts, do know that Cider Chat hasa swag store with a whole bunch
of t shirts for your Cider friend.
You can find that on our website.
Also other cider gift options such ascider books and cider making equipment.
(58:09):
You can find all that@ciderchat.com.
And with that, I leave you here.
This is Ria Windcaller.
Signing off for now.
Looking forward to seeing you in cider.
We like cider.
(58:31):
We like
we love.
Or.
And having fun, there is a reason.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh, yes, there is.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh, yes, there is.
There is a reason whywe drink it like this.
Oh, yes, there is.
(58:51):
There is a reason.
We like walking through the orchards,dancing in the streets, smelling all
the blossoms, kicking up our feet.
We like cider.
We like ponds.
(59:13):
We like orchards.
Having some fun.
There is a reason.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason whywe drink it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason.
We like walking through the orchards,dancing in the streets, smelling all
(59:36):
the blossoms, kicking up our feet.
Oh yeah.
We like cider.
Oh yes we do.
We like palms.
Oh yes we do.
We love orchards.
having some fun there is a reason thereis a reason why we do it like this is
(59:59):
the reason why we do it like this thereis a reason why we're drinking like this
We like walking down the orchards,dancing in the streets, smelling all
the blossoms, kicking up our feet.
Oh yeah.
We like cider.
(01:00:23):
We like ponds.
Oh yes we do.
We like orchards, having some fun.
Yeehaw!
Never shake the bloody tree.
Just because it's too strong.
This is the way you can't shake it.
All the trees just said, thank you.
Hello, my name is Ria Windcaller andI am the producer and Cider MC of this
(00:23):
weekly podcast, where we speak withmakers, Cider enthusiasts and folks within
the cider trade from around the world.
Don't shake the apple tree says EricBordelet who brought us into this
year episode 435 of a Cider Chat.
That was a little clip from a longerpresentation that he delivered from When
(00:49):
he put on his sommelier hat once againduring the French cider tour, you know,
if you've been following along Cider Chatsince I returned from France in September,
Well, actually I returned in October.
Yeah, I went to Franceand I went to the UK.
We're going to be talking all about that.
Just, just hang in there.
Make sure you press the subscribe buttonbecause you don't want to miss everything
(01:13):
that happened, all the episodes coming outand what's going to be happening in 2025.
But before I get there, letme just bring you up to date.
If you're new to the podcast, I havebeen talking about this cider dinner
that Really was a moment in time forme and I have a feeling for a lot
of people at the table, too It wasa moment where I had an epiphany.
(01:35):
I saw clearly exactly how cider and foodpairings should work all all encapsulated
in that one moment and really I Igive all the credit to Eric because he
certainly really up leveled my game inthat way, which is why you could go back
(01:56):
last week's episode and the week before.
The week before was the ultimate guidefor pairing cider and Thanksgiving.
So it gave you a whole bunch ofdifferent ideas for pairing your food.
And then last week's episodewas on Michelin star chef.
I recorded with Ivan Vautier,who is a Michelin star chef.
(02:18):
He's based in the city of Caen,which is in Normandy, France.
And that also is just kindof on that same thread, that
same thread of cider and food.
But with Eric.
Despite all that like previous work andeven the conversation with Michelin star
chef, I had never really experienced,and, and those of you out there in
(02:41):
Ciderville know me, you know, I've hadsome experiences, you know, this is a
field in Cider, I've been, I've beenin this world for quite a while, and
I've had many Cider dinners, includingsome that I have hosted, but with Eric,
I totally got to see it in a differentway and I'm hoping I could kind of
(03:01):
keep on helping others see that too,because I know Out there, we all know
how magnificently cider pairs with food.
It just moves the dial up, all the way up.
The heat is on when you are justhitting it, right on the perfect
(03:23):
accompaniment, with the exact spices,the intensity of the food, be it
like a dessert or a little starter.
Oh yeah.
So we really did it.
And anyways, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, this is, this is what happenswhen you go on a Totally Cider Tour and
boy, did we really hit, hit it out ofthe park that day with Eric Bordelet.
(03:46):
So you're going to be hearing that.
I have some clips.
Of course it can do the wholedinner because this was yet another
cider dinner that started somewherearound, um, I think six o'clock.
We had Eric talking to us for aboutan hour, bringing out once again,
all these like cellar, uh, vintages.
In fact, I have one in my little Chay isa word that they use in France for cellar.
(04:11):
Two thousand and seven.
Sidra Argelette
2007 that is no wow wow and I tasted it atthe table and when he said Ria I have this
bottle for you I was like yeah and it madeMade it all the way from France to the
UK and then back to New England with me.
(04:34):
Safe and Sound the bottle itselfhas no label on it because he
pulled it out of the cellar.
And it looks like it has some blowoff from the cider, like that what
got onto the bottle and it stuck thereand being the artist that he is and.
Appreciating, you know, ourboth creative kind of mindset.
He just, I'm just leaving thison for you and here, enjoy it.
So I'll get a, I'll definitely get a photoof that somewhere up on social media.
(04:59):
You'd enjoy it too, because I knowif you're listening to Cider Chat,
you have that, that pulse of anartist, you know, this year we're
looking for the exquisiteness.
of life.
Yes, that's what we're looking for.
And um, yeah, you're going to enjoythis and you'll have to kind of
like tune your ear a little bit,listening to Eric because you know,
he's not a native English speaker.
(05:20):
He really delivered.
Yeah.
You're going to love it.
I'll talk a little bit more aboutthat as we get into that featured
conversation or featured presentation.
It was basically the recorder wasright on the table and he went to town.
Damn.
I mean, when you have a.
a person such as Eric who hadbeen the top sommelier in Paris.
(05:45):
Just think about that for a minute.
The top
sommelier in Paris, who then became acider maker, who is now in retirement
mode, kind of chilling out, relaxing,enjoying his life, able to like,
start seeing the possibility ofpassing his domain on to his children.
(06:09):
That is the goal.
That is what he is doing.
And then he comes to dinner.
And he's down in the cellarand he's super stoked because
he's gone to the restaurant.
He's tasted the product.
He knows what's going to go perfectly withthe dish that is being offered, pulling
out of his little treasure trove, thatexquisite cider or Poiré for that moment.
(06:35):
This is like beyond pinch me moment.
I don't know.
This is like, uh, I don't know.
Maybe I was taken down intothe ocean with the aliens.
I don't know.
I, I'm still wowed by it.
You know, it's like, uh, like two monthslater, I'm still wowed by that experience.
I just saw the light.
Yeah.
And, uh, I'm sticking to my story.
(06:57):
All right.
So we'll be getting to that again.
I'll talk a little bit more and Iwant to say welcome to Cider Chat.
If you're new to the podcast, definitelyhit the subscribe button, follow Cider
Chat on all the different social mediachannels on Facebook, on Instagram.
It's Cider Chat at CiderVille.
Uh, Think there's a bluesky account right now.
Haven't really postedanything there, but we will.
(07:18):
And of course on threads,yada, yada, yada.
It's all good.
And so good to have you out therein Ciderville following along.
So hang in there because we'll get tothat Eric Bordelet cider dinner shortly.
But first, as always, we have awee bit of news from out and about.
in Ciderville.
(07:38):
Okay, Ciderville, let's talk a CiderCon2025 because if you are involved in any
way in the cider world and listen tothis podcast, you got to know that this
is the event to mark on your calendar.
It takes place February 4th throughthe 7th, and we're taking over Chicago
for an unforgettable experience.
And guess what?
(07:59):
We're I've got a special dealjust for Cider Chat listeners,
so stay tuned for that.
This year's theme isCider's Balanced Future.
Planet.
People.
Profit.
It's all about the triple bottom line,ensuring Cider's future is not just
profitable, but sustainable for ourplanet and the people making it happen.
(08:20):
On the planet side, you'll find cuttingedge sessions like the one with Carlos
Flores on creating an experimental foodforest in a Chilean heritage orchard,
exploring biodiversity in apple growing,and Ashley Lindsey sharing farming
practices to optimize orchard soil health.
And from Massachusetts,our own Elizabeth Garofalo.
(08:43):
Diving into balanced orchardsustainability through
integrated pest management.
There's even a panel on waste reductionand sustainability, featuring insight
from Schilling Cider and Angry Orchard.
Finn River, Santa Cruz, and KeepsakeCider are all about covering solutions
for both big and small cideries.
And you know what?
This is just scratching thesurface of what's going to be
(09:05):
offered, so don't miss out.
Register now at ciderassociation.
org and be sure to use the promocode CiderChat at the checkout
for 30 off your registration
Just look at the additional registrationinformation section on the form.
This code is case sensitive, sotype it exactly as you hear it.
(09:28):
CiderChat one word and two capitalC's and the rest lowercase.
Or go to the show notes for thisyear episode 435 and see exactly
how to copy that promo code.
Remember, It's time tosign up for CiderCon 2025.
Check it all out at the CiderAssociation.
org website today.
(09:51):
It's time for
Who's Been Cross Promoting Cider?
If you have shared an episode from CiderChat out to your fans, to your social
media, or perhaps you have downloadedthe PDF that you can find at CiderChat.
com at the support page,you just post that.
in your tasting room, you take a photo,
(10:12):
and it lists all the ways thatCider Chat is helping to educate
everyone out there in Ciderville,not just enthusiasts or folks enjoy
cider, but hopefully makers too.
And then post it on yoursocial media thread.
We in turn, get to talk aboutyou and soon there'll be.
(10:33):
featuring this very topicabout cross promotion.
And every time you mentioned cider chat,we want to be able to return the favor.
So I think it's just a winwin all the way around.
And it's been busy this past yearsince I first initiated this little
campaign here, been trying to keepit all together on an Excel file.
I think I kind of lost my way a littlebit while I was overseas traveling
(10:56):
about, but I'm catching up here.
And most recently.
We saw that there was a postfrom the same organization, but
they have two different threads.
One is, well, exactly, we justtalked about the American Cider
Association who hosts CiderCon.
On Instagram, At Pick Cider andthey mentioned on their story,
(11:18):
the little gobble, gobble, gobble,gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble.
A piece that we had all about the ultimateguide for pairing cider for Thanksgiving.
And then shared that newepisode to their Facebook page.
So thank you very much for that.
You know, we just love theAmerican Cider Association and
everything they're doing there.
And Upcoming, we are going to havean episode with Michelle McGrath,
(11:41):
who is the current CEO of the ACA.
And she has some info for everybody.
If you haven't heard, she's going tobe moving on to a new position outside
of the American Cider Association andwhat that looks like, and also her
thoughts on CiderCon and other good news.
It's always special tohave Michelle in the house.
(12:02):
So do look forward to that.
that episode coming up.
And we also saw that Spacetime Meadand Ciderworks, which is based in
Dunmore, Pennsylvania, once againshared to their Facebook page, the
most recent episode of Cider Chat.
So thank you very much for that sharing.
You too can join this, just postout there into social media,
(12:24):
wherever you use social media.
If you can use the hashtag X promotecider and we will get notified, tag
Cider Chat and we take those photos,download it and we want to be able to
share who you are and the good news on theupcoming episode all on cross promotion.
It's kind of a nice feel good thingto do for everyone so yeah, get
(12:47):
in on it and cross promote cider.
today.
Up next is our featuredpresentation with Eric Bordelet.
This was recorded at the cider dinneras part of the French Cider Tour 2024.
(13:07):
And I'm Kind of imagining as youlisten to this, you might get a sense
of what a Totally Cider Tour is.
Uh, I will, I think I could brag, it'skind of magnificent in so many ways, but
you know, if you haven't, or if you haveany questions, I should say, definitely
go back a couple episodes where youcould hear folks who were just on this
(13:27):
tour talking about their experienceand I'll put a link in the show notes
to that, or just go to cider chat.
com in the little search boxand put French cider tour and
you should get some info there.
Needless to say, yes, Cider Chatdoes offer Cider Tours, both
internationally and nationally, andwe call them Totally Cider Tours,
(13:49):
and we are planning one for 2025.
Where's it going?
Well, uh, I'm not going to say just yet.
There's some folks who do knowbecause they have put their
name on the wait list already.
That's how it goes.
People go on a Totally Cider Tourand they want to go on the next one.
(14:11):
I always have something in myback pocket, so to speak, ready
to go out and about in Ciderville.
When the calling is thus, and, andright now the calling for all of
us is to roll to this conversationright now with Eric Bordelet.
We're going to go right into it.
What the setup was is we met for dinner.
We're on one long table and Erichad arrived early to talk to
(14:33):
the chef and to set things up.
And, uh, He wanted to speak forabout an hour before we had dinner.
So we were just kind of tasting theciders and then we had the dinner
and, uh, that was just incredible.
And then he left and then AgatheLetellier was there cause she had joined
our tour for that evening and she wasin the living room and we just had a,
(14:56):
like a fireside chat with Agathehe.
It was incredible, equally incredible.
But this one, we're focusing allon Eric, although you'll hear him
mentioned at the very end when he'stalking about Calvados, because he was
using the same distiller as Agathe.
And there's kind of a fun antidote there.
Uh, a couple of things.
You'll hear me whisper to himat one moment, are you going
(15:18):
to talk about minerality?
And he'll say, yes.
And there's going to be a momentwhere he's talking about the
sugar content in perry and howit changes from year to year.
And this was one of those reallyimportant pieces for me because
I had noticed how Bordelet poiréwas getting sweeter and sweeter.
And I'm not a big sweet toothfor fermented beverages.
(15:41):
I'm not really keen on that.
And he explained that a bit.
And now I get it.
I understand it.
I really saw.
The range when he was bringingout different vintages.
So that was a big wake up call for me.
And he'll also talk about.
A bocage and what a bocage is, isit really is a Norman word from
(16:03):
old Norman bocage means wood.
So you'll hear him mention that.
So if you're not familiar withthat word, that's what that means.
And I think that's about it.
We're going to just kind of do alittle deep dive in here, hear about
the art of blending as he sees it, alittle bit of a story about Cormier.
A.
K.
A.
Sorbus Domestica, and he does talkabout biodynamic farming, and why
(16:31):
or why not he doesn't talk aboutit, doesn't lead forward, and some
also personal reflections on turninga new leaf, retiring, and letting
his, his children take over, andhow he works that into his life.
So, a lot here in a little tiny bit.
Enjoy this and really truthfully Iwish you were there sitting next to
(16:52):
all of us with a glass in your hand.
So I'm going to imagine you doing that nowwherever you are out there in the world
as you grab a glass and join this chatwith Eric Bordelet of Normandy, France.
I start by the , SidreTendrewhich is a sweet sider.
Okay.
We have three thirsty cuvee and threegastronomic, cuvee gastronomic.
(17:16):
Cuvée means the the same blend everyyear, so the same quantity of each via.
For the, the blend for the GastronomyCuvée, apple, pear, or cormé.
Never mix the fruit, different kindof fruit, like cormé, apple, or pear.
I mix apple, 20 kind of apple,15 kind of pear, and 12 of cormé.
(17:37):
But never mix this.
I like to keep the pure apple,for example, the roots of
the pear tree going far away.
That's why it's double acidity.
And of course the branch is goingup, but for the apple, most of
the time the apple tree is like anumbrella, and the roots are the same.
(17:58):
So that's why I don't like to mix.
And the corm, it's another, it's bothways, . So that's why I I don't like
to mix, and I'm worried sometimesabout when I see hops with cider.
It's difficult for me.
But it's only me, the problem, okay?
So, we start with a sweet cider.
The thirsty cider, we have thesweet, the demi sec, and the brut.
(18:22):
In January, we blend the vat ofSeptember, October, November December, St.
Bern, in a big one.
After two weeks, we take the firstpart, To stop the fermentation and
it is this produce, produit, SidreTendre, three, four degrees of alcohol.
Two months after we take thesecond part and it's brut tendre.
Okay, and two more months it's brut.
(18:44):
Today I bring the sweet and the brut.
And after we have the gastronomycuvée Sidre Argelette.
Voilà.
What else?
About geology?
It's a Schidst andgranite cooked together.
It's 200 meters large and it'shalf way of the hill going to the,
the La Mayenne, the, the river.
And when you understand about Burgundy,in the middle of the half way, it's called
(19:09):
demi ponte, it's Grand Cru most of thetime because the complexity geologic, it's
much more interesting for the, the plant.
Any plant, grapes, apple is the same.
If you have the same variety on,only on granite, on the hill, or the
one with near the river, the samevariety, The fruit is not so nice.
(19:33):
Maybe too much problem.
In the middle, it's, it's goodbalance, and near the river, it's
bigger fruit, with the same variety,and it's not so much concentration.
It's because I have passed as awaiter, but after in a logical
way, sommelier, And after the wineschool, before to start the cider.
So that's why all I have my,my feeling, emotion, it's,
(19:56):
it's like a wine, a winemaker.
Well, that's some difference, but that'svery important because I catch maximum,
with a winemaker everywhere in France.
We have enough and Italy anddifferent place about cider.
You have been to learn the method.
Champagne was in Quebec.
But that was interesting and to seehow the evolution of cider was very
(20:20):
high level compared with France.
So France comes slowly about this.
But anyway.
You can start by the sweet ciderthat's , 2023 should be exactly.
Usually I have the apple juice ciderapple juice, but I didn't bring today.
We don't have any more.
We, we, in two monthswe will have some more.
(20:42):
I like to present the apple, thecider apple juice, exactly the juice.
We have before the fermentation.
And as well, it's interesting for maybeto teach some kids, some people, what is
the difference between the cider you, theapple you eat and the apple cider we use.
(21:03):
40 percent of sweet apple, 40 percentof bitter apple, and 20 That's the way
we plant in, in Normandy and Brittany.
But some people can do some sweetcider with sweet apple, but me,
it's always the sommelier behindthere, and he taste all the time.
I learned my job, not in the rightway, but tasting, it was always
(21:27):
the, the link about my, my job.
Taste before, taste after.
So it's the same juice.
And I just stopped the fermentationafter step after step, but it's
just the sugar make the difference.
The brute have the same balance, bitterapple, sweet apple, but I don't want to
make a sweet cider only with sweet apple.
It's just my expectation about thesommelier expect to have the balance.
(21:53):
Even sweet or brut.
The balance is the most important.
It's my feeling.
Voila.
Okay?
We, we like?
Yes.
About balance, we can say the mostof time I produce it's one hundred
twenty, one hundred thirty, depends onthe advantage, gram by liter of sugar.
(22:16):
About this This cider, it's maybe30 to 50, depends on the vintage.
The balance.
So, 30 gram or 50, depends onthe vintage, gram by liter, stay.
The fructose stay in this one.
We stop the fermentation.
We didn't add it.
The only thing we added is SO2 sometimes.
(22:38):
To, to, to have a regular SO2.
Between 50 and 80 milligrams by liter.
I found my balance after a few years.
I taste with more, with less,but I can't not use at all.
And there is different kind of SO2, eh?
You have the, the, the liquid one,and you have as well, we use the,
the one we burn, like they used to doit in, in a barrel a long time ago.
(23:02):
It's just to protect.
As soon we touch the fruit, we protect.
So that's why, you know.
And especially there is a winemakerwho helped me a lot to open many box.
It's Didier Dagueneau, who wasquite the master of Sauvignon.
Because he was very, clean techniqueand he do many trial, like I have
done , and he phone me every two weeks.
(23:24):
I didn't understand why, but he, he knewwhat trouble I will get and it take me 15
years to have , what the sommelier expectand what, what winemaker expect, you
know, take, take me 15 years to understandyour fruit, your terroir, your fruits,
your And technically, it's complex.
(23:45):
I forgot to say, everyfruit is chosen by hand.
One by one.
Three months of the harvest.
Start two weeks ago, andit starts the biggest job.
Twelve to sixteen people.
I should tell at the beginning,but it makes sense for me
to, to, to work that way.
(24:05):
Perfect.
So now it's a brute.
I didn't bring, bring a bruton.
I don't want you to confuse you toomuch, but it's just between this, okay?
If you, you can, if you don'twant to drink all, you can put in
your, in, in the water, a glassand after we take off, okay?
Because This thing, it's notnecessary to drink all because
(24:29):
The other glass, itshould be for the Perry.
That's why I have two glasses.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Voila.
.Right.
Voila.
You have some interestingstuff as well during the meal.
I bring different things.
So, I want you to taste all.
If you don't Don't worry,you just split in in this.
Voila.
Comme ça.
Okay?
Super.
(24:49):
Are you going to talk about it?
Well, why not?
But after, because I keep this for Perry.
Oh, okay.
There you go.
About the geology, I can saythat I, I, I have explained
granite and Schist cook together.
There you go.
And it's a red Schidst.
Like your argelette, that's thename of the cuvee we have next.
Argelette, that's a red schidst only.
(25:11):
But where we are, it's a mixture.
And as well, you have argelette.
Red schidst like this you have in inRiesling, in, in Ringo, in Ringo, Germany.
You have in North Rhone Valleyand some place in Loire Valley,
Muscadet, or Léon, and everything.
About cider, we can setthe color and everything.
The smoky taste, you can discover a littlebit more afterwards with , the argelette,
(25:33):
because the next cuvee, it's gastronomic,it's more complex and more, maybe, this
one is just brut, and could be three orfour more years, it could be better for
the brut, better, it's just brut, lessthan seven grams by liter of sugar, voila.
But it's Cider in Normandy and Brittany,it's more about the conservation, we can
(25:56):
say, to age, it's the tannin who makethe produce keep going and structure.
A, the tannin, most of time,it's a tannin like a red.
Because we are 40 percentof a bitter apple.
And that's why I, I hope to havethe, the tannin to age the cider.
(26:16):
And for the perry, it'sthe acidity who make aging.
And minerality and everything.
But, it's not the same minerality.
Minerality about smoky,rocky, the, the Schiffer.
And after, for the, the granite.
So, it's more deeper and more.
Like a white wine acidity minerality.
So that's why.
Mm-Hmm.
(26:36):
. I recommend most of time to havea glass insider to have a red wine
glass, especially the gas Argelette.
Big time Sierra glass for the lid,or the bo glass because needs space
to, to breathe and not to, to cold.
So, the thirsty cuvée it's okay, but thenext one it will be like a red burgundy.
(26:58):
The perry, it doesn't care.
Five degrees is still enjoyable becauseit's double acidity and it's more
interesting when it's cold as well.
It doesn't break the, the, the flavor.
Of Argelette.
It's 22, and Argelette, it's a gastronomycuvee, and you can see most of time when
I start my job, people, it was a veryrubbish packaging inside in France, and
(27:20):
I tried to do the shape of Dom Pérignonand for the Paris, the shape of Creux.
So it's, the sommeliers are moreproud to serve those bottles
on the gastronomic restaurant.
And I keep of coursethe shape and and voila.
So Argelette, it's, need , tobreathe, you just have to move
and do oxygen, it's interesting.
And during the meal as well, we willhave all the Argelettes, so you have
(27:46):
to remind how it's, So it's, it iswhen it's young and you will see a few
years after what's, it could happen.
It could.
Huh.
Voila.
And 20, this is 2022?
22.
It was very dry that year.
No, no, no, no, no, no, Ijust you mean about sugar?
No, the, the, the season, theseason was it like very dry?
(28:06):
Ah, the season.
The, the, ah oui, thatmeans very sunny year.
So I called sunny year or wet year.
This year is Normandy year, normalyear, and 22 was difficult to build up
because the fruit get very warm whenit's sunny and not too much grass.
So , we select a lot.
(28:27):
And we leave a lot of fruit on the floor.
Some vintage like 2003.
I just take the maximum fruit.
And I didn't care about the CD cap.
And I think for, for, to havethe maturity for feno Perfect.
You have to have the, the, to changeyour way, you pick up the fruit.
So it's Mm-Hmm, , you haveto be careful about this.
(28:47):
So we ca we do for thePerry and Argelette.
So for last five seven Vintage,it's more better balance.
Like 2003, or 2010, it was celebrated,you can feel it's more like honey or
more like caramel, you can feel it so,but I think you will see during the
meal, what's happened a few years after.
(29:08):
It's interesting.
But when I bottled this cuvee, it'snever dry or sweet when it's a good
balance ready to bottled, I do it.
So it could change, depends on the year.
I don't want people, if I put brutor semi, demi sec on this cuvee,
I don't want people remember this.
I do the balance like the terroir with thebest or the best explanation of the fruit.
(29:35):
Expression, you can say.
So, voila.
So, Argelette, I'm very free todo what I want in this cuvee.
But for last seven years,it's very more precise.
For myself, that's mymy knowledge about this.
Voila.
Different vintage, I wasmore Subir than, than react.
(29:56):
So, after experryence,I, I know how to react.
So, voila.
But very sunny vintage 22.
Voilà.
So it's pear.
150%.
Because we use very small pear,so that's why I said 150%.
It's voilà.
You can feel it's more acidity,double acidity and minerality
(30:21):
like a white wine for me.
So white wine glass,Riesling glass, it's perfect.
Voilà.
You can have some flavor of sauvignonsometimes, depends on the vintage, but I
don't, the most important, like I said,is to pick up the food in the right time
for the maturity phenolic we call, but inthe cellar it's quite similar approach or,
(30:42):
or not too much difference in the cellar.
Of course, the clarification is mucheasier for the perry, but sometimes
it's not because we still have somesweet pear sometimes, only sweet.
So the skin is very.
He pe and ery and we have veryparticular and special fruit sometimes.
(31:03):
But anyway at the end ofthe day, it is the acidity.
Wow.
That's why I hate to mix.
Some people do, but it's confusing after.
And I have to explain as well, take 100years for a pear tree to become adult.
25 for apple trees, butin a traditional way.
(31:23):
And that's a big problem, butanyway, it's We still plant tea
too, and we still plant every year.
And graft, and as well but in 20years, we'll have 40 of different
apples, 40 of different pear.
And we, we still improve the, the,the combinaison, or the orchard.
But it takes maybe two generationsto build up the orchard.
(31:46):
Voilà.
That's very important.
That's why, maybe, we have In this area,this area, it's 40 kilometers, square
meters, and it's I think the, the uniqueplace about how you can say, individu, or
different with a variation of pear trees.
They do, now, some in Brittany are Paysd'auge, but Pays d'auge is not the same.
(32:11):
So the pair doesn't like toomuch Argilocalcare sometimes.
And I don't know exactly,but it's not the history.
And, and that's why on my vat,I have a mammoth design because
I want to sell people the pair.
The tree was there in the prehistorictime, before the apple tree.
So, that's why here it'sthe, the, the, the noyo, or I
(32:32):
don't know, noyo, you can say.
It's the, the, the.
Roots.
The roots of the noyo, voila.
It's like to have a PinotNoir in Burgundy, eh?
Noyo is a pit.
We can have some Pinot Noir in south ofFrance, but it's not the same balance.
Don't say it's bad, say it's balanced.
(32:54):
I wanted to express, because it was notused in France, about terroir and rocks.
The plants love some rocks, andit starts in the rocks anyway.
So that's why it was interesting totalk about geology in this job, I think.
Yes, we have two geologists.
So you can discover it's22, before it was 23.
(33:17):
So you can catch thedifference of the vintage.
But, first of all, I should bringa 23, but most of time, granite, of
course, blend, make, makes The balancemuch more precise and our complex
and you can feel it's more creamy.
It's because of course the blendand different the balance of
(33:40):
the different variety togethermakes something more complex.
But as well, the vintage22 was more sunny vintage.
, we, most of time granite is take one yearbefore to sell because it's I'll explain.
It's called in a, in aperry, it's oxidoreduction.
(34:01):
It's H2S.
So it's going reverse and oxidation.
And it's good sign when youhave oxidoreduction because It's
the yeast produces SO2 and it'sprotect, because it's sensitive,
our produce to oxidation, voila.
What can I say?
Granite, it's, voila.
You will see as well.
(34:21):
During the meal, have a granite,but older as well, to see
how it's going, it's aging.
What can I say as well I don't liketo have the bubbles, Straight away
and too much CO2, but it's just me.
For me, if you have too muchgas, so many farmer side.
(34:43):
I've done farmer cider the firsttwo years, but the gas, the
CO2 mask, they are aromatic.
So that's why for me it is justa, well, it's like a cremo,
three to four kilos maximum.
And it's much more enjoyablewhen you have some food,
And while I didn't want to createtoo much Perry, just The balance is
(35:04):
like this I want people to forgetthe sugar has to be a good balance.
And if it's granite 23 andauthentic 23, the same balance.
Granite 22 or authentic22, the same balance.
Because some people said, Oh, it's moresugar in in a granite, but it's wrong.
That's why I said it's more creamy.
(35:26):
On the analyze, it's more extra thick.
So it's more concentration, but it'snot by the sugar, it's by the body.
So it's very importantto set that for myself.
So you're still okay?
Concentrate for one more.
And after I wanted to If we're afterthe aperrytif, you can care about what
(35:50):
cuvee you have and the vintage specialty.
And that could be unusual maybe foryou, I don't know, but now I'm quite
old and I can't, in different fair,I like to show to many sommeliers
in France because they don't know.
Cider can age and perry can age.
So that's why I bring thosevintage and people, ugh!
It's very surprising.
(36:11):
But to, to age cider or perry you have tobe very good at control in your cellar.
Of course from the beginning, theharvest, but Technically you have
to be because if the bad yeast orbad bacteria there, it can't age.
But that was a challenge for myself.
(36:31):
And as well to age cider, I have differentchallenges in this life after 34 years.
Yeah.
What's the oldest perry you've selled?
What, how long is the longest,like, that you've sold this perry?
I will answer on the table later.
Okay.
The bottle will answer.
Okay.
, I can tell you 20, 30 years no problem.
(36:53):
But if I remember the before22,000, I think I was.
I was not so good as a maker, so itwas not good enough to, to age or some
problem arrived because I was too young.
But after those vintage, I thinkyou can keep it this, no problem.
Temperatures in the cellar?
Of course, has to be the, like awine, has to be a regular temperature,
(37:21):
not live in a, in a, in a fridge.
Not a variation too much, and yeah,it's possible as a wine anyway,
but we try our best about it.
We have a good cellar to age, but wecan't, we need some money to get back,
so we can't age too much produce.
Everybody knows that one.
Oui, of course.
(37:43):
Because we pay tax aswell, it's all about this.
For the next one, you have toclean your perryglass with water,
and you will discover Cormier.
Maybe people know.
Voila.
In our area here on the, we couldsay Loire Valley, we call it Cormier.
So it's Latin, sorbusdomestica, and it's a cuisine.
(38:04):
We can say under apple and pear,you have quince, and another
one I forgot, Medlar, maybe.
Medlar, but voila.
And it's quite, in Italy, they have sorbo,and in East of maybe Czechoslovakia,
or there's a different place in Sicily.
Anyway, so, and in Le Mans, traditionallyin Le Mans, they used to do this
beverage in the 15th century, until1950, and not too much trees left.
(38:30):
So but I'd start in 2007,17, this produce again.
And so it's called, you haveto be used to the cormé.
You have to open a new box becauseyou can't compare with anything
because you never taste the fruits.
And And the beverage, soyou just have to open.
And I like to present when it's young,it's just, it's 23, maybe six months
(38:53):
bottled, and it's, it's, it teach youhow the fruit is at the beginning.
And the fruit is like the shapeit's called piriform or maliform.
But it's a shape of apple or pear, butthe the skin is like a Sherry or Mirabel.
Very delicate.
Voilà.
(39:13):
So that's a story from2017 and we taste 2023.
And at the end of the meal wewill taste another vintage.
Voilà.
How big are the sorbs you're getting?
It's like cherry.
Like the size of the cork?
Half.
So, yeah, you have some picture, I havesome picture on my phone, but most of
(39:33):
the time the fruit is this side, maximumthis side, but it's half of this one.
Some, some, some are like beans, beans.
No, it's crazy.
It's not crab apple, please.
When I've been in university, they toldme it's crab apple, maybe, but it's not.
It's a real fruit.
Voilà.
Cormier, who make the cormé, thefruit, and the cormier, the beverage.
(39:57):
Wow.
That's super smooth.
Super smooth.
I love it.
It's special and unique and youjust have to open a new box.
Yeah.
And after the box open, you will taste the2018 and you will see and it's huge trees,
most of time three, four hundred years.
And leaves are quite different, that'swhy on the label I, I, I just put
(40:19):
the, the leaves because it's differentleaves compared with the apple or pear.
It was concentrated in Le Mans.
Le Mans was a provincebetween Normandy and Brittany.
And now they call something else.
Stupid.
But Le Mans was, there is a history,a flag and everything about Le Mans.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we are just on the limit.
Not far away.
(40:40):
So how do you harvest it?
With Harvest Pick.
But this start two weeks ago.
And how, how?
By hand.
All by hand.
I forgot to say we choose thefruit, but it, it's very high.
The tree.
So when you say by hand, are youclimbing the trees is when they.
Or on the ground, yeah, which is verylabor intensive for this type of thing.
(41:01):
Wait, wait, wait.
So you choose on the floor?
Never shake the bloody tree.
Just because it's too strong.
This is the other way.
You can't shake it.
All the trees just said thank you.
That's just what's peaking.
It's just me.
Some place they do.
They shake of course.
(41:22):
Different way
now.
We were in the the ciderbar in Paris on Sunday night
and had the 2021.
What a difference.
Wow.
Between the two.
(41:43):
The, it's young.
That spread at home and 21 startto be, but after one or two years,
it's close, it's getting close.
You need one, two years to recover again.
So I don't know, it's a longtime it didn't taste 21.
I forget one or two years and after.
And the first year was twenty eightSeventeen, twenty seventeen, that's right.
(42:07):
Because we tried it in twenty eighteen.
Twenty eighteen.
Perfect.
I forgot, if you have somequestions, no problem, I can answer.
Because the chef is notready before fifteen minutes.
Okay.
Okay?
So, can you talk a little bit moreabout minerality, because that, just
in terms of taste, it's a difficultthing to, to talk about, and you have
(42:32):
an incredible vocabulary for that.
And we are tasting it, but how doesone describe that, especially for
when you're trying to, reach anaudience and bring people into cider.
There's a lot of commercialmakers here, but there's also,
you know, cider enthusiasts.
So we're trying to, like, figure out,how do we, how do we explain the taste?
(42:52):
Like, we're getting a caramel insome of the the poirets, you know?
It's like, really pronounced.
How do you explain that?
Good luck.
No, I just, I have explained pieceby piece when I I think people, if
they understood the maturity phenolicthat I, I catch in, in, in, with
(43:16):
winemaker, that's the most important.
After, it's your terroir who is talking.
So, if you, you, to catch theterroir in a cider, you have to
believe choosing a good, Timing thethe fruit, okay, after you have to
follow your juice, to be clean,
if you are not clean, if you have toomuch yeast, you couldn't catch it.
(43:38):
You, you just catch the, the,the bread or the, the we call.
You can catch differentkind of minerality.
You have the one about the smoky taste Itold about Schidst and argido calcare from
with the calcare from the Pays d'Auge.
It's another kind of minerality.
We could say Pays d'Auge, it couldexpress the minerality like champagne.
(43:59):
Because there is many placescalcare in champagne as well.
The depends what kind of minerality oryou have on your ground, but as well you
like, but you, but you have to, to know,your geology, especially your fruit.
In the past, the old people was select thevariety was great in this area and succeed
(44:21):
because the via in Pedo doesn't succeed.
Maybe in our place, I,I know it's not succeed.
And if we can exactly.
You s in my place, in my variety.
In your place.
We won't have exactly the same things.
Because of the ground.
Of course, and it's important.
And we don't have the sea.
(44:42):
You have to see the ecosystem.
It's not only the roots.
It's as well the area,if near the sea or not.
You have observation like a peasant.
Observe, observe, observe.
That's a main point as well.
That's why observe what is the bestyou want to show from your area.
I always say to young people, Bloodyhell, you have an area, you, from
(45:03):
there, you have, everybody has torecognize where the cider's from.
That's why I don't like the bloody mixturewith oats or, or with Sierra, there
is some cider maker make with grapes.
I don't know how youwork, but I, I, it's me.
We have a whole spectrum here on that.
You know, as usual, as usual, I havethe whole spectrum of people doing that.
Yeah, but you're sayingthat's what you do.
(45:26):
And that's what's really criticalto know is Eric has his own style
and yes, but I want to explainif you want to develop cider like
we talk about in the restaurant.
You have to develop your, yourecosystem, your terroir from your place.
You have the identity of yourplace or yourself from your place.
(45:46):
That's the only future for the cider.
If you start to do likeindustrial, do mixed and mixed
cocktail, there is this way.
Actually, that's why I'mquite, I know about this.
And cider, the other part, the cidercan evolve if this condition, I think.
We have the answer just to observe thenature where you're from and and if you
(46:07):
plant new stuff it's, it's, it's Youhave to think about different you have
to have a lot of knowledge to, to knowwhat kind of fruits develop in your area.
It's a lot in France,we may be lucky as well.
Not some, sometimes because traditionis heavy, but in the same time, the
old people was working for a longtime in this, with this place, and
(46:29):
plant, craft, and observe, observe.
That's the main point.
Wine, it's so easy, in three yearsyou have grapes and you can make wine.
In Normandy there is grapes now, andin Brittany they put grapes everywhere.
But I don't know, it's justto make fun, or, I don't know.
But I think we're all in agreement.
(46:50):
Well, I'm going to say in agreement,because on this tour, we have been to
all these different regions, , in Paysd'auge Breton and circling, you know, in
Domfront, then circling back to Domfront.
And I think everyone here wouldsay each Each region, each little
spot, had their uniqueness, andthat's why we're doing this tour,
to affirm exactly what you're saying.
(47:12):
That's the beauty of visitingeach maker and seeing, holy
smokes, castle, guildeau.
And, you know, having a ciderthere was It's so different than
coming down here into this region.
You're not in Domfrontais,you're in Mayenne.
Five, five, five hundredmeters from the Appellation.
(47:33):
Oh, geez.
Ay, ay, ay.
Right?
But that's how it goes.
That's why I don't putDomfrontais on my label.
It's not fair.
It's not fair.
They didn't accept me.
They don't want me in the band.
So, because five hundred meters.
And the geology is the same.
I could understand geology different.
But it's people who was in chargewas not open minded this time.
That's politics.
Yeah, politics.
But it's a big problem as well.
(47:54):
It's a problem, I agree.
It's one of the main problem.
Yeah.
People decide for you.
That's not fair.
So that's why I wanted todecide many things for myself.
Yeah.
And not have subventionfrom the Europe stuff.
And you have many help, but youare not free to do what you want.
So that's another problemin, in, in Europe, in France.
(48:15):
Can you talk about would you talkabout Oh, I think I've talked enough.
No, you haven't, we have, wehave a question down here.
I'm just interested in,you talk about soil.
Oui.
What about, in the United States,we call it cultural practices.
So what is happening in the orchard?
What's a planted around the trees?
What do you spray on the trees?
How are you Me?
in the trees, in the orchard?
How does orchard care?
I just keep the old age, agees.
(48:37):
Okay.
all the local chestnut or different trees.
And we practice biodynamic from 96,but for the ground, but it's not the
main point AB, we do organic for theplant, but it's not the main point.
And we don't want to beknown by, by this only.
We want to be more large and to, toobserve, but I, I I would explain, no,
(49:01):
just respect, try to respect the areabecause the neighbors doesn't care.
He has a tree.
He cut that.
On this limit.
They don't care.
And we try to have to keep the,the bocage normal, bash normal.
It takes many generation to build thisbocage, this ecosystem with the insect.
And it's worried me about this,this, and if you have a nice
(49:24):
area, that's the first point.
The, the balance of the ecosystem.
Mm-hmm.
. But that it's a lot of work.
And, and if the generation beforecut everything, change the ecosystem.
No chance, I think, to work too much.
Or you need chemical, you know.
I, I actually want totalk about work too much.
So, retiring for, for you, I,I see it's it's just difficult.
(49:50):
And there are, you know, alldifferent kinds of levels of people
where they're at here in this room.
So, do you have any advice for somebodywho has a cidery and they're thinking
about retiring take me more energyto transmit transmission and retiring
because I have to accept first and mymind is, he want to build up another
(50:12):
place, but my energy is knackered.
My body can't.
But anyway, Transmission takes me 3 4years to Juridically, fiscally, you have
different points and Psychologically,that's the most important Because,
and especially in the family, becauseit's my boy Julian He's worked with
(50:33):
me 8 years, Roman a few years, butIt's, it's, it's It's a lot of work.
It's, it's, it's has to be prepared.
We, we asked a company who is specializedto with, it's a referee who manage
everyone, the character of everyone.
That's the point, but thepoint but it take a long time.
(50:55):
He has to be prepared.
Like I prepared a cider, I think.
And because you have to, to teach aswell, they have to understand you.
My kids have to understand.
For a long time, theythey, they listen to me.
How do you get them excited?
Because I know some people here, youknow, want their kids and then the
kids kind of like, don't get excited.
(51:16):
So, is there like, Some good advicehere because I just exchange all the
time, show my emotion to my kids.
They catch it quickly.
And I was surprised that two, threeyears ago they decided to say, okay,
but so that's mean, I've done somework, but it's a big, it's heavy stuff.
(51:42):
Now, were they going offand doing other things?
I mean, cause sometimes that'sthe advice is allow them to
go try something else to see.
I don't know, but they have thedecision now, but I still been
involved for a part anyway.
It's not.
That, yeah, we have different exchangenow we share if each one bring
a If you have a problem, bring asolution, and we discover, it's not
(52:02):
mine, it's not Julian's solution.
He's just in the middle of the solution.
So it's great.
I have to enjoy because it's Iused to take this side in five
minutes and to see tack, tack, tack.
But now it's another work, butit start by myself a long time.
Well, I could see you actually lookless stressed than I've ever seen.
No, I see he's lookinglike healthier than ever.
(52:26):
This like the first time I'm like, Youknow, this guy actually looks like he's
retiring a little bit, but just a look.
I can't I can't believe it.
Yeah, no, but anyway, I just want tosay as well succeed I was thinking about
this today is I sacrifice my privatelife as well because Very hard time my
(52:49):
kids show me all the time at work BecauseI was doing in a restaurant 12 years,
but it's lunch and dinner, 12, 13, 14hours a day, and, but with big chef, so
I learn a lot, but a lot of energy, butI, I, I still continue the same rhythm,
but anyway, I'm, I'm done, I'm, I, tocreate and to do all the time at work.
(53:13):
I, I can't do something else,all or nothing, so, voila.
So, I think I was done for this.
And but not to continue.
I don't have any energy too much.
And my kid would be very good to structureto have a better balance for, for, for
structure, structuring and continue.
They realize what is on and because theyhave traveled, they have been abroad.
(53:36):
They have lived in Australia.
They have traveled everywhereand they have some.
They exchange with their kids.
They have been workingwith some winemakers.
So they, they, it's outside theyunderstood what I've done, not at home.
So it's taken, I always suggest to goabroad to, to learn another language
because it's open box here and mind.
(54:00):
Yeah, that's good advice.
I don't know, but it's I will explainthis different stuff, different clue.
But no, but it's a longprocess, like the cider.
Well, good luck to that.
But now I have the chance to present,it's just a few weeks ago, the Calvados,
the first Calvados will be out, so in U.
(54:21):
S., so hopefully will be in December,at least, with PM Sperry to New York.
One guy is just to all U.
S., and and he was the first CalvadosI've done, it was the Monsieur Jean Pierre
Ferrand, who worked as well to, Agatheheplaced for a long time and 7th generation
distillator and he teach me a lot.
(54:42):
He, he was Incredible person andvery, very well very interesting.
Difficult to manage, but Impossible.
Impossible, but So rich person aboutCalvados, aging, and everything.
He didn't want to come, it's too far fromPays d'Age, it's five hours in tractor.
(55:04):
I have to take a tractor.
Are you kidding me?
He didn't want to put hismachine on a truck, on a tractor,
five hours from Pays d'Age.
No, no, no.
It was a sketch, in June.
We stay at home three weeks and weall know it wasn't And after we we put
the machine to your place or before Idon't know but wow, that's why we know
(55:25):
each other Oh my goodness Yeah, yeah,yeah seven generation So many stories,
anecdotes, all about distillation, becausedistillation in Pays d'Auge, it's a real,
the roots of distillationof Calvados are here.
(55:49):
Yeah.
But I wanted to, because in myarea, it's single distillation, but
I wanted to double with the Perry.
only, or the apple only,you know, in the wild.
So you're just following what thisparticular region is doing versus, like,
in Pays d"auge because of the regionality.
Double distillation for me.
It's, I want, even if it's70 percent of alcohol, I want
(56:12):
to smell and smell the fruit.
And with double distillation,it's really good.
Right.
With single, you get the bad Ester.
That's why I'm, it's just my,my, my nose will make the meat
to expect a double distillation.
I didn't make enough tohave my own distillation.
It's just too expensive.
And what I saw the first Calvadosis aging from 96 and 99 in Paris.
(56:36):
So, next year you will see ifyou meet in some place, yeah.
Today was not a point, not yet.
Mm hmm, not yet, okay, great.
And, the barrels, the whatkind of wood are you using for?
Ah, oak, oak barrel only.
French oak?
Oui.
French oak is good.
I didn't want to try and I didn'twant to take too much risk.
(56:58):
Huh.
Some, I knew some winemakers have avery good tonnelier, so I just choose
the tonnelier because he serve some,I suppose if he serve winemaker, very
good winemaker, he must do good barrel.
Really?
Yeah.
Eric was on fire.
I just want to say it was so nice tosee him relaxed feeling content and
(57:21):
really in his stride Just really aginglike a fine bottle of cider and before
I roll out of here I just want to putone more little reminder to anyone out
there going to cider con 2025 when yougo to the website cider association
org Don't forget to use that promo codeCiderChat, all one word, two capital
(57:45):
C's, for 30 off your registration.
And while you're online, and you areperhaps shopping for some holiday
gifts, do know that Cider Chat hasa swag store with a whole bunch
of t shirts for your Cider friend.
You can find that on our website.
Also other cider gift options such ascider books and cider making equipment.
(58:09):
You can find all that@ciderchat.com.
And with that, I leave you here.
This is Ria Windcaller.
Signing off for now.
Looking forward to seeing you in cider.
We like cider.
(58:31):
We like
we love.
Or.
And having fun, there is a reason.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh, yes, there is.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh, yes, there is.
There is a reason whywe drink it like this.
Oh, yes, there is.
(58:51):
There is a reason.
We like walking through the orchards,dancing in the streets, smelling all
the blossoms, kicking up our feet.
We like cider.
We like ponds.
(59:13):
We like orchards.
Having some fun.
There is a reason.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason whywe drink it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason.
We like walking through the orchards,dancing in the streets, smelling all
(59:36):
the blossoms, kicking up our feet.
Oh yeah.
We like cider.
Oh yes we do.
We like palms.
Oh yes we do.
We love orchards.
having some fun there is a reason thereis a reason why we do it like this is
(59:59):
the reason why we do it like this thereis a reason why we're drinking like this
We like walking down the orchards,dancing in the streets, smelling all
the blossoms, kicking up our feet.
Oh yeah.
We like cider.
(01:00:23):
We like ponds.
Oh yes we do.
We like orchards, having some fun.
Yeehaw!
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