PM Show HR 1 - Why Was Epstein Trying To Influence Trumps Case If They Were Friends

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Luck and Load Michael Verie Show is on the air.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
The question is what is the future of democratic leadership?

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Who is going to be effective?

Speaker 2 (00:18):
But we have dynamic, young new leaders where some of
the Chris Murphy is a top leader, and Cory Booker
is a dynamic leader. Brian Schatz is a dynamic leader.
I mean Elizabeth Warren, someone who's ideology I appreciate.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Now. We said we are anchoring ourselves in the moral traditions.
When we came out here over ten hours ago, Hakima
and I said, this is a bigger moment than politics.
This is a moral moment in America. And we were gonna.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Sit here for a long time.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
I didn't know we'd be sitting for ten hours. But
it's ten hours and we're still going, and we got
some great people here.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
This is who I grew up believing with my brothers.
This is our family's story. My apology is an apology
for not having been more sensitive about tribal citizenship and
tribal sovereignty. I really want to underline the point tribes

(01:51):
and only tribes determine tribal citizenship. It is an issue
of tribal sovereignty.

Speaker 5 (02:07):
And this shutdown hurt.

Speaker 6 (02:44):
It did, But unfortunately, I don't think there is a
way to save this country, to save our democracy without
there being some difficult, hard moments along the way.

Speaker 7 (02:58):
I got the eyes.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Some good ball over the weekend.

Speaker 8 (03:07):
Congratulations to the Texas A and m Aggie's for the
biggest comeback in Aggie history. Boy, they just about blew it.
I mean there they were in the big time, everybody watching,
and I thought they were going to blow it like
Kim Kardashian.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
But they didn't. Pulled it out.

Speaker 8 (03:26):
Marcel Reid, their quarterback, tweeting after the game, sorry about
the first half.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
I like a good sense of humor in an athlete.

Speaker 8 (03:33):
Well played, Marcel, well played, Texas A and m holding
on to the number three spot.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
I think they're better in Indiana. I'll tell you that.

Speaker 8 (03:42):
Oklahoma beating Alabama, throwing the playoff picture into quite the flux.
The number four Alabama Crimson Tide, having recovered from an
early loss and then marching back and looking like maybe
they weren't the Alabama of Nick saban Old, but they're solid.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
They're going to be there at the end. Oklahoma twenty
three to twenty one. With the win.

Speaker 8 (04:10):
All ut had to do was win Saturday evening and
hopefully they beat Arkansas. That's that's not given. And then
you've got the big matchup UT in A and N
the last game of the season, the storied rivalry that
had been ended because A and M went to the
SEC and then finally Texas back in the SEC. So

(04:31):
you've got that big game and for Texans, that is
the rivalry that is.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
The Civil War, the Oregon State, that is the.

Speaker 8 (04:41):
Auburn Alabama, that is Ohio State, Michigan. I mean, this
is one of these This is one of these rivalries
that you just loved to see and UT did blow it.
They absolutely blew it to a very good Georgia team.
Now it's because they have been in the past, but
a very good one. Michigan barely held on against Northwestern Northwestern.

(05:04):
Always like Arkansas or Kentucky, pops somebody per year that
they're not supposed to be USC beating Iowa, Georgia Tech
beat Boston College, Clemson beat Louisville.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Boy, how far they've fallen.

Speaker 8 (05:18):
Davo says he's not going to play in the portal,
and it looks like it's going to cost him. Harvard
beat Penn in case you were wondering about the IVY League,
and yeah, that'll be good enough for now. I will
say I'm fascinated by the coaching carousel. The idea of
Nick Saban coaching again is very intriguing. Where Lane Kiffin

(05:41):
will go very intriguing. These are what make college football
so darn much fun. But let's talk about real life
and government and policy in America, in the country we're
going to leave to our children, because that too, has
devolved into pure entertainment. When Donald Trump was elected, the

(06:07):
Democrats had to knock him off his game because Trump
came in this second time a different man. On the
first day, he was issuing executive orders. He wasn't waiting
around shaking hands, trying to play nice. He knew he
had to strike while the iron's hot. He started in
on illegals on day one, and he caught everybody's attention.

(06:30):
And the Democrats didn't know what hit him. It was
a blitzkreak. They had no idea and they were on
their heels. But slowly but surely, they said, hey, we've
got to do something. He's going to be the most
popular president of American history. Despite everything we've done to him.
We tried to kill him, we shot him, we dragged
him through thirty four indictments, we tried to bankrupt him.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
We've accused him of rape, we've accused him of.

Speaker 8 (06:54):
Tax cheating, which, by the way, now Eric Swaalwell turns
out he is allegedly a mortgage sheet as well.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Who knew.

Speaker 8 (07:03):
Well, you got to think the hypocrisy when these stories
were playing in the news every day, Big Tish in
New York and Eric Swalwell and these others who are
allegedly committing real mortgage crimes wagging their finger at Donald Trump,
you have to think, right, It'll be like a guy

(07:25):
who's got thirty mistresses said, hey, have you.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Seen this Tiger Woods story?

Speaker 8 (07:30):
Turns out he's messing around with a bunch of girls
and his wife Elin knocked him in the head with
his own golf club and he crashed his car. Well,
the Democrats tried to take Trump down and couldn't, and
they've tried everything, and the latest was that he was

(07:54):
a king. And then after that when they couldn't prove it, well,
he's a king. We don't want a king. The next
week everybody said, we kind of do want a king,
want a king who'll feed us, give.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Us free food?

Speaker 8 (08:03):
And they said, well, now he's trying to starve you.
The king's trying to starve you. Well, the newest is
the Epstein allegations. And that won't hold up either. But
that's the newest in a long line. Don't just keep trying.
They're gonna throw it against.

Speaker 7 (08:14):
The wall aside like a fish.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Whoever didn't hide, didn't? I find you're gonna rainy next.

Speaker 7 (08:30):
Keep me up in.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
Sow it down, picking old time.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
I gotta keep roll of those of winds. See the
winders stepping out of tempo, keeping breving bedom with the
song on the radio. I gotta keep road.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
I'm trying to love a way.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Look at all that away, Oh me Eddy Rabbit.

Speaker 8 (09:06):
Today Elvis Presley background singers made good day. President Trump
is pushing House Republicans to vote on releasing the Epstein files,
saying he has nothing to hide. He's not the only
one who says he has nothing to hide. Do you
remember when NBC News hosted a panel of Epstein victims

(09:26):
and then asked them if President Trump was involved. They said, no,
he wasn't involved.

Speaker 9 (09:33):
I do have to ask, and I know, and it's
just something that I think were compelled to at this
moment with the attention on President Trump, with these questions
are out a part in did anybody see or hear
of the President himself doing anything inappropriate as a related
to Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 8 (09:48):
Nothing these people say is honest, Nothing they do is decent.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Tell you what. Rather than the New York Post.

Speaker 8 (10:00):
An objective source that they would call conservative, let's go
to the Washington Post as liberal as it gets right headline.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Three days ago Friday.

Speaker 8 (10:13):
Epstein texted with House democrat during Cohen hearing. Document show
newly released documents from the convicted sex offender's estate include
text messages from him at Epstein that appear to influence
the lawmaker's questions to Trump's personal attorney at a twenty

(10:34):
nineteen congressional hearing. The newly released documents from Jeffrey Epstein's
estate show that the convicted sex offender texted with a
Democrat Member of Congress, Stacey Plaskett of the US Virgin Islands.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
She's technically a delegate, but she's considered a congressman.

Speaker 8 (10:58):
During a congressional hearing with Michael Cohen and that those
text messages may have influenced the congressman's questions of Cohen,
President Trump's former personal attorney. In the texts, Epstein appeared
to be watching the February twenty nineteen hearing in real time,
and at one point informed Plaskett, whose name is redacted

(11:21):
from the documents, that Cohen had brought up former Trump
executive assistant Rona Graff in his testimony.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
At the time, Cohen was.

Speaker 8 (11:31):
Testifying before the House Oversight Committee against his former boss,
alleging that Trump was racist, manipulated financial records, and directed
hush money payments to cover up his extra marital affairs,
allegations Trump denied. The president said on social media that
Cohen was lying. Before testimony began, Cohen brought up rona

(11:59):
keeper of the seats, Epstein texted, misspelling Graft's first name, Ronas.
Plasket responded quick, I'm up next. Is that an acronym?
She added, suggesting she would question Cohen soon. That's his assistant,
Epstein replied. The copies of the text messages were included

(12:20):
in a trove of thousands of pages of documents containing
Epstein's emails and other communications released Wednesday by the House
Oversight Committee. The messages show Epstein was invested in what
Cohen was sharing about Trump, the financier's former friend, during

(12:41):
his testimony. Trump has provided different accounts about why he
ended his decades long relationship with Epstein and has tried
to distance himself from the deceased sex offender, But he
has previously denied knowing about Epstein's abuse. So you know
what's interesting about this means means that Epstein was trying

(13:03):
to influence the public's opinion of Donald Trump. He was
trying to bring harm on Donald Trump. That is not
in dispute. You can tell that from the text messages,
but that is very telling. Think about this, Why is

(13:25):
Jeffrey Epstein trying to bring harm to Donald Trump? Epstein
is in prison at the time. Let me correct that
you are not taken to prison until you are sentenced.
You are taken to jail or a detention center. You're
not being incarcerated at that point. I mean, you wouldn't

(13:46):
know the difference. You're inside steel bars and they're giving
you bad food, and you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, but
you are not yet serving a sentence. You are detained
in a detention or as often called a jail.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
So it was in.

Speaker 8 (14:06):
July July sixth that Epstein was arrested on federal charges
of sex trafficking minors in New York and Florida. We
know that he had been arrested about a decade earlier
and did a kind of a little game where they
pretended he was in jail, but he could basically come and.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Go as he pleased.

Speaker 8 (14:29):
He was arrested July sixth, and he died August tenth.
You could argue that he committed suicide, but I've never
met a reasonable person with any knowledge of the case
who believes he committed suicide. Not one, not one. And

(14:53):
if you do, then I suspect you also think that
j Simpson was innocent, that Fauci had nothing to do
with the COVID shot. There are probably a few other
things that you think, but I don't know anybody that
feels that way. So why is Epstein trying to influence

(15:17):
the case against Trump, who at the time as a
sitting president. This is being missed because this is a
very important point. People are saying that Epstein was Trump's friend.
I think at one point they were collegial with each other,

(15:37):
Trump was very, very social. He made it his business
to know people, including powerful people and famous people. That's
how he became very famous. He interacted with other famous people.
But if Epstein is his friend, he wouldn't try to
take him down because think about about this. If he

(16:02):
expects that he's going to be given a pardon, he
would not want harm to come to Trump. How does
he know he's not going to get a pardon. If
Trump had anything to hide, he would do exactly what

(16:23):
Joe Biden did with his son Hunter.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Of course he had plenty to hide.

Speaker 8 (16:29):
He would give him a pardon under the agreement that
he never talked, but he was letting the system go
after him, and Epstein knew it.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
That's not the sign of a guilty man.

Speaker 8 (16:39):
If you're Donald Trump, here is he up and over
that four foot ditch and Michael Very show the Evil
can Evil stunt cycle rum ideal.

Speaker 6 (16:56):
Len amazing.

Speaker 8 (17:02):
Let's go back in the way back time machine to
January twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
It is an election year.

Speaker 8 (17:12):
Sorry, take that back, Yeah, yeah, January twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
That's right.

Speaker 8 (17:19):
So the fact that Trump runs for president three different
times throws me off, and the fact that he won
three different times is amazing, but we'll leave that alone
for now. It's January twenty twenty. We've just begun the
fourth and final year of Donald Trump's first term as president.
Things are looking good in the country. He has a

(17:43):
plan in place to get us out of Afghanistan. I
am surprised how many people don't recognize how popular that was.
And then when Joe Biden office, they bungled.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
The exit.

Speaker 8 (18:04):
They absolutely bungled the exit. August twenty sixth, twenty twenty one,
at cobbles Abbey Gate Airport, thirteen US service members were
killed and about one hundred and sixty Afghan civilians, ending

(18:28):
a war that resulted in over seventy six thousand deaths,
including twenty four hundred and twenty American service members. The
Biden administration bungled halfway through their first year what Donald
Trump had accomplished. And this is the nature of the

(18:50):
fact that we don't have kings or presidents or dictators
for twenty years, so the lack of continuity can be
a real challenge. FDR was the president who got us
into World War Two, but it befell Harry Truman to

(19:11):
make the decision to drop the bombs that ended the
final peace of that war, which would have been far
more bloody had those bombs not been dropped, something that
is not discussed enough when the America is awful crowd
who've had enough to say, they've said enough, they've.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Had their moment.

Speaker 8 (19:35):
The number of lives that would have been lost on
both sides, But I only care about the American lives
when I say America first, That's what I mean. The
number of American lives that would have been lost in
the continued fighting had we not dropped those bombs is significant.
The Japanese were a fierce, brave, heroic, proud, talented warrior

(20:02):
with good equipment and good training, and the war was
a fae to complete. It was going against the Japanese.
But the Japanese are a unique culture. They weren't simply
going to say, well, if we project this out, we're
going to lose. They were willing to fight to the death.

(20:24):
That's the kind of people they are. They are very,
very proud people. They're proud of their traditions. In fact,
I don't know of a people more proud of their
heritage and their traditions than the Japanese. Even the Chinese
and Indians, in my opinion don't compare. I don't know

(20:46):
why I said my opinion. Everything has my opinion, don't
need to say that. So the continuity was broken. Biden
comes in in bungles, a beautiful thing that Trump had
accomplished getting us out of the forever War. The Dan Crenshaw's,
the Lindsey Grahams, the Dick Cheneyese. They love forever wars.

(21:06):
They love to send your sins to your sons to
war for decades because it makes a lot of money
for the people who pay their bills. And they love disaber,
rattle and sound tough. And the rest of us are
weak if we don't support their forever wars, and the
rest of us don't understand the threat. We have to
fight them over there, otherwise we have to fight them here.
But while we're fighting them over there, we end up

(21:29):
owing so many of them for helping our service members
while they're there, that we bring all those people here,
and then so many of them end up being rapists,
con men, fraudsters. How about we leave the rest of
the world to the rest of the world and stop
trying to put our nose in everything. If you want
to make a payment to the big defense contractors. Just

(21:51):
make a direct payment. We don't have to waste all
the American lives of good young men in order to
do that. So it's January twenty twenty. Things are going
well in the country, foreign affairs, domestic affairs, the economy's booming.
It is an era of good feeling. And it was

(22:12):
widely believed that Trump will not be able to be
defeated in his second term in his reelection, and the
Democrats didn't have a good stable of candidates. So the
Democrats didn't have a good candidate waiting, and it was
believed it would be Biden, about whom Barack Obama, he
had been Obama's vice president, about whom Obama said, well,

(22:36):
if anyone can f it up, it's Joe Biden. Even
the one guy that should have something nice to say
about Joe Biden says he's a bubbling idiot.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
And he is he.

Speaker 8 (22:47):
Always has been. So the Democrats don't have a strong candidate.
They don't have a charismatic candidate. They've got a group
of also rans, one guy who was the mayor of
a little town who's claimed to fame. As he puts
his butt up in the air, an angry but unknown,
ugly senator from Minnesota named Amy Klobuchar, Pocahontas, a socialist,

(23:14):
whiny old white woman Bernie Sanders, also a socialist, which
is why they fought, because they're fighting over the same
votes with a crooked finger who looks like a crazy
old man. And then you had the intersectionality candidate, the

(23:34):
half black, half Asian half this half that what Rush
Limball called Willie Brown's mattress. And that left the only
thing the establishment thought they could win with was a
decrepit old white guy. So that's how they picked Biden.
These are good times in America. This is good times.

(23:57):
Trump's going to give us four more solid years.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
And what happened.

Speaker 8 (24:02):
They unleash COVID lockdowns, mail votes. They create the environment,
they lay the predicate. It's all a process. They create
the environment for the fraud in voting.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
And then a.

Speaker 8 (24:18):
Random case things like this happen all the time. Some
black guy in Minneapolis on the run from Houston where
he was a felon, in the middle of committing a felony,
drops fentonel down his throat, chokes to death as he
had almost done thirty days earlier. They blamed it on
the cops. The cops are bad. Trump represents the cops.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
You create a race war, the combination of all of that,
and they steal the election.

Speaker 8 (24:46):
So what you're seeing with all this Epstein talk, and
Trump's an Epstein guy. They called him the King. Nobody
bought it. They said he was starving people out. They
were the ones doing it. They said he cause World
War three? Look at the peace deals? Was it ten now?
So now they're in a rough situation. They have to

(25:09):
try something desperate. So that's why you're hearing about Epstein now,
not because they believe it. If they believed it, they
had four years in power. They could have stopped it.
If they believed that Trump was involved with Epstein. They
had power for four years. You don't think that pit
him to the wall. Well, Michael, they didn't want to
get the Clintons involved. They would sacrifice the Clintons to

(25:33):
burn Trump. Make no mistake about that. They didn't prosecute
Trump because they didn't have anything on Trump. And if
you're in power and you prosecute somebody, then you look bad.
But they're out of power now, so they just hurl
things at the Wall three.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Michael Bay did show on Bull Plump Changing Everyon.

Speaker 8 (26:47):
Over the weekend, President Trump went on truth Social and
called the whole controversy a Democrat hopes, saying it's a
distraction from what he sees as recent Republican wins even
pointed back to comminents he made aboard Air Force One
telling Republicans or telling reporters that Republicans should go ahead

(27:09):
and release everything. Get it out there, Just get it
out there. You'll never shut the Democrats up because this
is what they do. They're still claiming racism for everything,
but at least get it out there so the people
who are paying attention, who are reasonable, who wonder, can

(27:30):
rest assured. So here we are talking about the Epstein files.
To put out this fire and go to the next
one they create. While Trump has to do this, he's
trying to also do great things for America, which is
where our energy should be focused. I have never been

(27:52):
a Steven A.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Smith fan. I realize some people are. I'm not.

Speaker 8 (27:57):
I think he's a bluffer. I think his whole delivery,
in his style is all.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
You know.

Speaker 8 (28:02):
When Obama does his black preacher thing, that's not really him.
I think that Steven A. Smith talks in some way
and got himself trapped into this talk of being an athlete,
which he tries to pretend he is a more of
an athlete than I am, but he's not on par
with the players.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
He wants to palle around with. Enough bad about Steven A. Smith.

Speaker 8 (28:27):
He actually has some pretty good perspectives. Now it's all
a question of expectations. He's got some really stupid perspectives too,
and he's too quick to use race in everything. But
when he says something that sounds reasonable, it cuts through,
kind of like Bill Maher, because that's not what you
expected him to say. So he had something to say

(28:50):
that I think was more intellectually honest than anything the
Democrats have said about this issue. He says, the Democrats,
and there's sudden interest in the Epstein files they had
four years if they actually legitimately cared.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
The thing about it is, if the Democrats.

Speaker 8 (29:09):
Ever actually believed any of what they say, it might
be worth us having a real conversation.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
But they don't. Here's what he said.

Speaker 7 (29:19):
Ladies and gentlemen, keep in mind that the Epstein files
were in existence and free to have been opened during
the Biden administration. You were there for four years. How
come you didn't open it as a Democratic party?

Speaker 8 (29:33):
Then?

Speaker 1 (29:34):
What am I missing? I'm not saying.

Speaker 7 (29:37):
I know it's a legitimate question. Maybe I don't remember
the answer. Maybe my extraordinary producers should be able to
help me.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Doing a commercial break.

Speaker 7 (29:44):
But from my understanding, the same files that will open
for being open now, with the two hundred and twenty
pages of documents or whatever it is, with various emails
that could have been done when Biden was in office, Well,

(30:06):
why didn't you do it? If it's so important? Now,
what would the Democrat doing at that particular moment in time. See,
this is the kind of stuff that smells, because my
attitude is just deducing how much they despised Trump.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Is if there was some real bot.

Speaker 7 (30:31):
Dirt on him, since you went after him with the
thirty four felony convictions, which essentially was deduced to him
paying hush money to Stormy Daniel's, a poorn.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Star, just so she would have revealed.

Speaker 7 (30:44):
Their happenings with one another leading up to the election
in twenty sixteen. Okay, if you had something like that
that you were willing to parade him through the streets
with of course, if you had.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Something on him about Epstein, you to.

Speaker 7 (31:02):
Let it go earlier to make sure he didn't become
the forty seventh president.

Speaker 8 (31:05):
That's just my thinking from a logical perspective.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
But what do I know?

Speaker 8 (31:09):
The all shucks kind of works there partially because when
you are a commentator, you have an anticipation of what
people are going to say.

Speaker 3 (31:21):
Steven A.

Speaker 8 (31:22):
Smith has made a name for himself as primarily a
basketball commentator, but a sports commentator. He is a big asset,
a big property for ESPN. He makes them a lot
of money and he makes a lot of money himself
in the process. And so for him to start offering
political opinions, he is very well aware that there will
be people who will say, what do you know, You're

(31:44):
just a sports guy, And so if someone disagrees with
what he's saying, that's what they'll say. I know, because
if people disagree with something I say about sports, they'll say,
stick to politics. And it doesn't matter whether I'm right
or wrong, or whether my reasoning is sounded. People want
a way to diminish what you're saying, so they don't.

(32:05):
It's an ad hominem attack that way, they don't have
to address the merit of your point. People get very
upset that I am in favor of NIL and the portal.
I feel as a fan myself, my fan experience. I
might like vanilla and you like chocolate or strawberry or whatever.

(32:30):
For me, the fan experience this year is better than
years past, and that is directly attributable to NIL and
the Portal. You are also seeing teams that do not
typically compete prior to the last few years on the
national scale in the top five Indiana, A, and M.

(32:56):
You're seeing teams that were dominant Penn State, Oregon that
are not able to dominate the way they did Alabama.
I think you're seeing a greater degree of parody. You're
seeing more upsets. You're seeing teams and programs that couldn't
compete before now competing on the highest level Texas Tech.

(33:23):
To me, that's exciting. Which either way it doesn't matter.
I don't take it personally. I have opinions on a
lot of things. What is and isn't a sandwich was
a raging discussion this morning. I love the conversation. I
find value in the conversation. Some people don't, So we'll
get angry because they can't figure out how to express themselves.

(33:48):
They can't structure an argument. They don't have the data,
the experience, the knowledge, the analysis. So they will say,
what do you know? Sports a stick to politics? Well,
I know at least as much as you, because you're
a sports fan. If you're going to say that a

(34:09):
sports broadcaster has more knowledge than the rest of us.
So what he's saying there is I know what you're
going to say, Well, why does he know that?

Speaker 1 (34:17):
People are going to say that? Where do you think
that's going to come from?

Speaker 8 (34:21):
When he says Democrats had four years ago after Donald
Trump when they were in power, and they didn't, he's
not talking to Republicans. He's talking to black sports fans
because that's who's going and white liberal sports fans because
that's who's going to tell him shut up and dribble
focus on sports.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
What do you know?

Speaker 8 (34:44):
Because when Steven Ah Smith finishes a statement cocky as
he is, not only is he cocky, he tries to
project the image of being cocky because that's part of
his persona, the swagger. When he says that it makes
no sense they could have done this, But what do
I know? He is trying to cut off at the past,
what he knows they're going to say about him, because
they know