June 15, 2024 • 8 mins
The Government's planned efforts to bolster mining efforts have attracted backlash from some voters.
Resources Minister Shane Jones recently unveiled a draft strategy for mineral mining - which is currently open for submissions.
Geology associate professor Martin Brook says there needs to be a proper 'adult conversation' about the nature of mining.
"Where we've got minerals that are required for manufacturing the technology and the products - we should be trying to feed those into the global supply chain as well as we can do."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mining it's been a hot topic of debate. Resources Minister
Shane Jones unveiled his draft strategy for mineral mining a
couple of weeks ago, which is open for submissions now.
Environmentalists are concerned of the impact that we'll have on
our country, but geology Associate Professor Martin brook is questioning
the ethics of offshoring our mining needs and he is
(00:34):
with me.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Now, good morning, Martin, good morning, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm really good. Thanks. Hey, let's have a little talk
about the ethics of offshoring our mining needs. Where are
we importing our minerals from at the moment and what
kind of conditions are they being mined under.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Well, we've bought just about everything, don't we. So we
order things on the internet and it turns upon the
doorstep or you know, we're going to Harvey Norman's. And
I think the main thrusts of the article were really
just start the conversation on on on this, on this
draft mining strategy and what we want to do, because
(01:13):
it's it's very convenient for us to be anti mining
and say we don't want mining here in New Zealand,
and that's that's possibly a good thing, but that just
means that all the mining occurs overseas and we're conveniently
offshoring our environmental footprints. And I don't think that's ethically
or un morally right because everything we use, from a
(01:36):
soup spoon to a smartphone and all the technology in
between that comes out of the ground, and even plastics
come from an oil field, So I don't I think
the problem is people have got now a disconnection from
the land and their daily lives, and they wouldn't have
had it in the past when we had a really
agricultural economy that have understood understood that everything comes from
(01:57):
the land, and it's it's not really anything revolutionary revolutionary
on you I would expect sort of primary school kids
to understand these concepts. But you know, I think we
need to understand that we can't just offshore our environmental
footprint and have this sort of pull up the rope jack,
we're all right attitude. I think that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
So we've got an obligation to share the load of.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Mining I think we're doing.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I think we should Yeah, where we've got minerals that
are required for manufacturing the technology and the products, we
should be trying to feed those into the global supply
chains where we can do where you know, we can
you know, reap whatever economic benefits there are, as long
as we're not harming our environment. That's that's the that's
(02:45):
the crucial thing I think technology. Oh sorry, go ahead,
I say, Martin.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Is it just about education? Because there's a mining has
become very politicized. You're either for it or you're against it,
and it doesn't seem to be any nuance in the
conversation in between. And I'm sure there is a difference
between good mining and bed mining as well that we
don't talk about. We just presume all mining is bad,
(03:11):
But I'm sure that there is good mining practices out
there that we should be talking about as well. Is
it just does it just come down to sort of
just reminding people and educating people a little bit more
about about as you say, how much we rely on
these minerals.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, I think it does come down to education, I think,
And I think it doesn't help where you've got politicians
declaring they're anti mining and all the rest of it.
While they're reading their speech from a smartphone, you know,
with a microphone with lots of copper and aluminium and
stealing it. I don't think that's helpful. And I think
(03:50):
really it needs an adult conversation because if we didn't,
if we were really anti mining, would be leader living
a neolithic existence as stone age people. It's that simple.
We need, we need mining for spectacles, for all our healthcare.
The list goes on. Even tooth Baste has got lots
of different minerals in it. So I think it is
(04:13):
an education thing and I think people really need to
have a pragmatic, grown up conversation about it, and that
starts with our politicians and Martin.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
We want to move on from fossil fuels, we want
to be prepared to do that transition to more sustainable
renewable energy, but that too requires resources.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Right it does. Yeah, we need to stop burning fossil fuels,
it seems from the climatologists. But you know, with green energy,
wind farms consume massive amounts of steel. So even three
mega wat turbine, which is not a big one, now,
that's got three hundred tons of steel in it, fifty
tons of copper and half a ton of value minium
(04:51):
each turbine, and the turbines that are going up I
think in Taranaki are four point two mega lots, so
they're even bigger. So each turbine's got hundreds of tons
of metal in them. And steel is I think, well,
it's mainly produced in using cocaine coal, so as well
as the metals, but cocing coal is used in the
(05:11):
steel manufacturing process. So yeah, wind farms are great, but
they consume massive amounts of metal and that's that's something
that people need to realize as well, that metal is
generally coming from overseas, and and you know, some of
the some of the worst problems in the world are overseas.
(05:31):
In developing countries, often the political problems to do with mining,
so tantle them. For example, which is in every smartphone
usually comes from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and
they've had issues in the Tanga province for well over
half a century. And in fact, it's a minerum rich
province in the Congo. Lots of lots of minerals come
(05:53):
comfort into the global supply chainet if the uranium from
the Manhattan Project came from there, and so you know,
when we consume lots of minerals and technology, we need
to understand that it has lots of impacts the world
that we're potentially fueling. So we can't be sanctimonious about
our lives here in New Zealand, Martin.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
If we do look at the critical Minerals List, do
we know what we actually have here in New zealandfully?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Well, I think there's probably the resource geologists will have
a good idea, But I think that's I think that
was the second thrust of Shane Jones's strategy to produce
a critical Minerals list, and I think that's already been
contracted out that work, so it'll be interesting to see
what it comes up with in what parts of the country.
I think there's probably a lot of people waiting to
(06:40):
see that get published.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
How big are the economic benefits here and how do
we weigh those up against the ethical and environmental concerns?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Well, that's the Trade Office, well, the International Energy Agency.
They think that usually for every one mining job, it
produces two to four other jobs in the economy, so
it has a bit of a multifier effect which is
worth considering. But you know, the environmental costs have got
to be considered obviously when you're in the you know,
(07:13):
we have good universities in this country. We've got some
great engineers, we've got great geologists, environmental scientists, all charters,
and you know, we have a very strong educational system
here and there's plenty of smart people in New Zealand
who I'm sure can manage minds and the environment in
a in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So you believe because because I think the environmental concerns
are very legitimated and we'd like to see that the
risk minimalized. So you're basically saying we probably do hear
the talent here to minimize risk.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well, yes, and it's getting the it's getting the regulation
settings right as well, and you know, monitoring and all sorts.
So you know, when you open a mine, you know,
the mind's open for a few decades and then it
closes and then you know you've still got a monitor
afterwards and do do that kind of work. So it's
(08:05):
not just opening a mind. Isn't just a potential problem
while it's operating. So closure and rehab and monitoring afterwards
of waterways and things, you know, that goes on for decades.
So you know, there's some serious things to consider, without
a doubt, but that they need to be considered and
discussed properly rather than hysterical rhetoric, which I don't think
(08:30):
is helpful.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Martin Broke, appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time.
That was Geology Associate Professor
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Martin brook For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudgin,
listen live Ton't Use Talks it Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mining it's been a hot topic of debate. Resources Minister
Shane Jones unveiled his draft strategy for mineral mining a
couple of weeks ago, which is open for submissions now.
Environmentalists are concerned of the impact that we'll have on
our country, but geology Associate Professor Martin brook is questioning
the ethics of offshoring our mining needs and he is
(00:34):
with me.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Now, good morning, Martin, good morning, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm really good. Thanks. Hey, let's have a little talk
about the ethics of offshoring our mining needs. Where are
we importing our minerals from at the moment and what
kind of conditions are they being mined under.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Well, we've bought just about everything, don't we. So we
order things on the internet and it turns upon the
doorstep or you know, we're going to Harvey Norman's. And
I think the main thrusts of the article were really
just start the conversation on on on this, on this
draft mining strategy and what we want to do, because
(01:13):
it's it's very convenient for us to be anti mining
and say we don't want mining here in New Zealand,
and that's that's possibly a good thing, but that just
means that all the mining occurs overseas and we're conveniently
offshoring our environmental footprints. And I don't think that's ethically
or un morally right because everything we use, from a
(01:36):
soup spoon to a smartphone and all the technology in
between that comes out of the ground, and even plastics
come from an oil field, So I don't I think
the problem is people have got now a disconnection from
the land and their daily lives, and they wouldn't have
had it in the past when we had a really
agricultural economy that have understood understood that everything comes from
(01:57):
the land, and it's it's not really anything revolutionary revolutionary
on you I would expect sort of primary school kids
to understand these concepts. But you know, I think we
need to understand that we can't just offshore our environmental
footprint and have this sort of pull up the rope jack,
we're all right attitude. I think that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
So we've got an obligation to share the load of.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Mining I think we're doing.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I think we should Yeah, where we've got minerals that
are required for manufacturing the technology and the products, we
should be trying to feed those into the global supply
chains where we can do where you know, we can
you know, reap whatever economic benefits there are, as long
as we're not harming our environment. That's that's the that's
(02:45):
the crucial thing I think technology. Oh sorry, go ahead,
I say, Martin.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Is it just about education? Because there's a mining has
become very politicized. You're either for it or you're against it,
and it doesn't seem to be any nuance in the
conversation in between. And I'm sure there is a difference
between good mining and bed mining as well that we
don't talk about. We just presume all mining is bad,
(03:11):
But I'm sure that there is good mining practices out
there that we should be talking about as well. Is
it just does it just come down to sort of
just reminding people and educating people a little bit more
about about as you say, how much we rely on
these minerals.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, I think it does come down to education, I think,
And I think it doesn't help where you've got politicians
declaring they're anti mining and all the rest of it.
While they're reading their speech from a smartphone, you know,
with a microphone with lots of copper and aluminium and
stealing it. I don't think that's helpful. And I think
(03:50):
really it needs an adult conversation because if we didn't,
if we were really anti mining, would be leader living
a neolithic existence as stone age people. It's that simple.
We need, we need mining for spectacles, for all our healthcare.
The list goes on. Even tooth Baste has got lots
of different minerals in it. So I think it is
(04:13):
an education thing and I think people really need to
have a pragmatic, grown up conversation about it, and that
starts with our politicians and Martin.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
We want to move on from fossil fuels, we want
to be prepared to do that transition to more sustainable
renewable energy, but that too requires resources.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Right it does. Yeah, we need to stop burning fossil fuels,
it seems from the climatologists. But you know, with green energy,
wind farms consume massive amounts of steel. So even three
mega wat turbine, which is not a big one, now,
that's got three hundred tons of steel in it, fifty
tons of copper and half a ton of value minium
(04:51):
each turbine, and the turbines that are going up I
think in Taranaki are four point two mega lots, so
they're even bigger. So each turbine's got hundreds of tons
of metal in them. And steel is I think, well,
it's mainly produced in using cocaine coal, so as well
as the metals, but cocing coal is used in the
(05:11):
steel manufacturing process. So yeah, wind farms are great, but
they consume massive amounts of metal and that's that's something
that people need to realize as well, that metal is
generally coming from overseas, and and you know, some of
the some of the worst problems in the world are overseas.
(05:31):
In developing countries, often the political problems to do with mining,
so tantle them. For example, which is in every smartphone
usually comes from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and
they've had issues in the Tanga province for well over
half a century. And in fact, it's a minerum rich
province in the Congo. Lots of lots of minerals come
(05:53):
comfort into the global supply chainet if the uranium from
the Manhattan Project came from there, and so you know,
when we consume lots of minerals and technology, we need
to understand that it has lots of impacts the world
that we're potentially fueling. So we can't be sanctimonious about
our lives here in New Zealand, Martin.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
If we do look at the critical Minerals List, do
we know what we actually have here in New zealandfully?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Well, I think there's probably the resource geologists will have
a good idea, But I think that's I think that
was the second thrust of Shane Jones's strategy to produce
a critical Minerals list, and I think that's already been
contracted out that work, so it'll be interesting to see
what it comes up with in what parts of the country.
I think there's probably a lot of people waiting to
(06:40):
see that get published.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
How big are the economic benefits here and how do
we weigh those up against the ethical and environmental concerns?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Well, that's the Trade Office, well, the International Energy Agency.
They think that usually for every one mining job, it
produces two to four other jobs in the economy, so
it has a bit of a multifier effect which is
worth considering. But you know, the environmental costs have got
to be considered obviously when you're in the you know,
(07:13):
we have good universities in this country. We've got some
great engineers, we've got great geologists, environmental scientists, all charters,
and you know, we have a very strong educational system
here and there's plenty of smart people in New Zealand
who I'm sure can manage minds and the environment in
a in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So you believe because because I think the environmental concerns
are very legitimated and we'd like to see that the
risk minimalized. So you're basically saying we probably do hear
the talent here to minimize risk.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well, yes, and it's getting the it's getting the regulation
settings right as well, and you know, monitoring and all sorts.
So you know, when you open a mine, you know,
the mind's open for a few decades and then it
closes and then you know you've still got a monitor
afterwards and do do that kind of work. So it's
(08:05):
not just opening a mind. Isn't just a potential problem
while it's operating. So closure and rehab and monitoring afterwards
of waterways and things, you know, that goes on for decades.
So you know, there's some serious things to consider, without
a doubt, but that they need to be considered and
discussed properly rather than hysterical rhetoric, which I don't think
(08:30):
is helpful.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Martin Broke, appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time.
That was Geology Associate Professor
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Martin brook For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudgin,
listen live Ton't Use Talks it Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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