July 27, 2024 • 14 mins
Kiwi actress Lucy Lawless has taken a deep dive into the risky world of war journalism with her directorial debut.
Never Look Away is a documentary on ground-breaking New Zealand-born camerawoman Margaret Moth - and her risky journey capturing footage of conflict zones across the world.
Lawless says she's enjoyed every moment of putting this 'intense, joyful and rewarding' project together.
"All the extreme emotions you can have on a job, I had on this one. It took me a lot of places."
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks edb Right.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The last time I spoke to Lucy Lawlass, she was
neck deep in research for her first ever feature film.
The film Air is a story of keevy War correspondent
Margaret Moth, a story Lucy was obsessed with. She was
traveling the world interviewing and researching for the documentary. Two
years later, Never look Away has made its world premiere
at Sundance and is on its way to Kievy screens
(00:33):
this week as part of the New Zealand International Film Festival. Director, writer,
and producer of Never look Away is Lucy Lawla's herself,
and she joins me, Hi, Lucy, thanks for your.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Time, Yodda, Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
As I mentioned the last time we spoke, it was
about this time in twenty twenty two, and at that
point you were traveling, you were interviewing people, you know,
you were right in the middle of it all and
it was all quite full on. It's been quite intense,
hasn't it.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
It was really intense. It was the scariest, most um
heart breaking is the wrong word, but the most intense,
the most rewarding, most joyful, all the extreme emotions you
can have on a job I had on this one.
It took me a lot of places.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Have you enjoyed that side of it, of pulling it
all together and the research and the directing and the
producing and everything.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh, I've enjoyed every moment of it, I must say.
You know, obviously I didn't do it on my own,
so I had experienced editors sort of guiding me, and
a wonderful research assistant when Wen Lee, who I hope
to work with her again in some capacity. Anyway, all
I'm saying is it was an amazing team effort by
(01:47):
a lot of fabulous kiwis to bring the story of
New Zealand's least known famous person.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
For those who aren't familiar with Margaret Moth, tell us
about her.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
So Margaret Moth grew She was born in Gisbon and
then raised in Wanganui, and she had five siblings, born
to a couple who really never wanted children, and all
the things that transpired in her childhood made her somebody
who just was hungry for extreme life experiences sky diving
(02:23):
and X and drugs and roller skating like night roller
skating urban environments kind of behavior, you know, And eventually
she went off to war as a camera person and
found her metier. It's where she belonged. And then Madison's
(02:45):
used it's kind of a humph for who is this
person really?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And that was going to be my next question, because
she's a really complex character, isn't she? After everything you've
found out and what you know, what do you make
of Margaret Moth.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I don't know if it's nature or nurture, but the
thing that I think that she was struggling so hard
to escape her loveless, pitiless childhood actually became her superpower.
When catastrophe struck, it became her superpower and it's what
(03:24):
enabled her to survive and become redeemed in some sense
that she lived, learned to live a life of service
to other people instead of just consuming everything that came
in her way.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You've said that she was a woman with an enormous
appetite and no qualms. What do you mean by this?
Speaker 4 (03:50):
There was.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What do I mean by that? Well, she certainly enjoyed
the pleasures of the flesh and felt no shame about that.
She never wanted to have babies. I believe because of
her mother's utterances and experiences and you know, popping out
a baby every year or so. And I just never
(04:17):
wanted to replicate her mother's life in the life that
her sisters took. You know, they all left home at
fifteen or younger, they all were pregnant pretty quickly, and
she just wanted no part of that. So she actually
had to go to court and fight for the right
to be sterilized, and she did and never never regretted it,
(04:38):
never looked back.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
She lived such an authentic and courageous life, didn't she, Lucy.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, I mean here's the conundrum. She lived courageously in
that she was very honest about who she was or
the things she wanted to do, but she was still
hiding something, and she was very she kept things very
siloed off from one another, really compartment lies, and that
(05:06):
her work people never knew anything about her private life,
and they're all quite shocked when they saw the film
and vice versa. You know, she kept everybody's secrets, She
kept everybody distinct from one another. And so so I
mean authenticity, does you do have questions about that? You know,
(05:28):
like how comfortable was she really if you need to
hide elements of yourself from other people. But it's just
what she chose to do, and I don't think she
suffered any qualms about any of it was it was
all perfectly in line with her conscience.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It's a really interesting comment you make about people's reaction
to the film, Lucy that knew her.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, I think they're really shocked. A lot of them.
It took them a few a few viewings to come
to terms with it. You know, you're used to seeing
seeing you know, journalists or from CNN who have a
corporate identity were shocked that I would make a film
that showed the dirty laundry. But the fact is Margaret
(06:16):
was not ashamed of any of it, and so I
felt like I had a sacred agreement of compact with
Margaret or Margaret's ghost to tell the truth as I
saw it, without fear or favor. Is how she lived
her life, and I tried to carry that through in
(06:38):
the film. So there's things in there that anybody who's
trying to keep their image manicured or public consumption were
shocked that I would that I would portray on screen.
But I just felt like that was part of my
deal with Margaret.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I think Margaret would prefer that, And of course Margaret
passed away twenty ten. Wasn't it Lucy from cancer?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Right? Yeah, yeah, yes, there's a bit of a story
with that actually, which we didn't cover because it would
have bogged the film the pace of the film down.
But the life saving transfusion that she got in Sarajeva
when she was hit by a sniper's bullet while driving
to work with her comrades, it actually gave her hippatitis,
(07:26):
and in those days there was no good treatment for it,
and it caused suicidal ideation, all kinds of struggles through
that treatment, and eventually, in all likelihood, that contributed to
the cancer that she eventually died of. So that's one
of those weird wush me pull you elements of that
(07:49):
happen in a brave life like hers, you know, where
what doesn't you know, what doesn't destroy me makes me stronger.
But sometimes what saved me will also lead to my destruction.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
What is it about war correspondence Lucy like Margaret that
keep coming back to.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I couldn't find and I asked this of many of them.
You know, what's the commonality with people like you, and
they said, there's none. People come from happy childhoods, people
come from miserable childhood. There's no there's no real correlation
except that once they go most people and who choose
(08:28):
to go to that environment become trauma bonded to the job.
And that's only my observation, that's my concept. Nobody else
they might they might pooh pooh that, but in my opinion,
they've become trauma bonded to the job. And when you've
been in some kind of a global error with a
(08:49):
whole city is suffering the same experience, at the same time,
you kind of only want to be with those people
who understand what you've experienced. And so when they go home,
they're very abilities in in the normal world because nobody
understands what they've been through. And then when a conflict
(09:11):
kicks off, they want to get right back there because
their nervous system is tied to that that there's a
lot not a love of you, there's some sort of
a chemical romance going on with that level of stress
that their body just wants to wants to dance.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
What do you want people to take away from this documentary?
Because I think it's a fascinating subject. But you know,
I think Margaret's going to have an impact on people.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I hope. So there's these things I want them to
take away, and one is slightly it's the beet story
of the film, which is I want to a gender,
a respect for the profession, because in my opinion, there's
no self interest in those people being on the front line.
They're really doing it because they need the truth to
be told, they need to bear witness, they need to
(10:03):
document it. And from mar herself, I hope that people
look at her and go, wow, if she did so
much when so many things had been ripped away from
her beauty, her ability to communicate, her career, her teeth,
her tongue, all the stuff, and she achieved so much,
(10:24):
then who am I not to reach that little bit
aigh for the thing that I dream I dream of,
the thing that I desire is just outside your region.
If you reach a little higher, you might just get it.
So I hope that Margaret inspires them to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I know that you have been asked to direct before
and you sort of said no and things, and this
was the first time you've launched into a project like this.
I get the feeling you might be hooked on this
directing thing, now, are you.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I'm afraid I am. I think in the last twenty
five years. My first job was when I was eighteen,
so that would thirty eight years. But say in the
last twenty five years, while I was having kids and
all that stuff, I just I didn't have my full
(11:16):
bandwidth at my disposal. And I think something has happened.
When this story came up, it exploded something in my
mind and made me commit, even I had no idea
how I was going to pull it off, commit to
something well outside my list of desires, And it was
(11:38):
so intoxicating and so terrifying that I'm trawing and bonded
to the job myself. So I'm working real hard to
get back to that state of war asap.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
It is all it is going to be all about, though,
that subject, isn't it. I mean, that's what drew you
into this project. Marcro Moth just.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Her I must have. I must have taken in everything
I needed to know about her in that news report
when she was shot back in nineteen ninety two, And
because the minute I got that email saying do you
want to make a movie about my best friend who
(12:22):
died some years ago. I instantly jumped on it. I was,
to be honest, I was terrified that it was just
a form letter and that it had gone out to
a thousand other people and that they would get it,
and like, I'm normally just not that competitive, But something
possessed me in that moment and made me commit to
something outside myself. And I feel like, you know, Margaret
(12:46):
picked me up and booted me through the door and
made me do it because it was not kind of
of my making in some way.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
And now here we are, and here we are, and
congratulations on premiering at Sundance. It must be lovely though
to be able to bring it home to New Zealand
as well.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yes, finally, because we are who I made it for.
I just just thought it was such a shame that
this wild character, one of our own, went to the
ends of the earth, to the ends of human experience
and back and we don't really know much about it.
(13:25):
So I hope you'll enjoy.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well, what does this mean for Alexa Crow, because we're
also enjoying the last series of my life as Murder,
and you know, we don't really want that to disappear. Either.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Neither do I because I actually love watching that show.
You know, it's such kind of gentle, it's super accessible.
You don't have to you know, you're not going to
be in pain, and the world is full of pain
right now.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
And that show is just my little mitzvah. It's my little,
you know, little gift of love to not just the
world but my own career. You know, I've done a
lot of sex and violence and all that kind of
growth stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And and I just didn't want to do that when
we first when I was first approached about Alexa, So yeah,
I was like, let's make something good, Let's make something kind.
You know. It was Balm per Hour and Saul. So
I'm delighted that other people are enjoying it and getting
to see my beautiful city, getting to see Auckland as
(14:26):
a sexy urban environment very much.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So well, Lucy, thank you so much for your time today,
and best of luck with the documentary. I'm sure it's
going to do exceptionally well and be very very popular
at the film festival.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Thanks Fantasica, Thanks for time.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Never look Away makes its New Zealand premiere at the
New Zealand International Film Festival this week.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks edb Right.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The last time I spoke to Lucy Lawlass, she was
neck deep in research for her first ever feature film.
The film Air is a story of keevy War correspondent
Margaret Moth, a story Lucy was obsessed with. She was
traveling the world interviewing and researching for the documentary. Two
years later, Never look Away has made its world premiere
at Sundance and is on its way to Kievy screens
(00:33):
this week as part of the New Zealand International Film Festival. Director, writer,
and producer of Never look Away is Lucy Lawla's herself,
and she joins me, Hi, Lucy, thanks for your.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Time, Yodda, Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
As I mentioned the last time we spoke, it was
about this time in twenty twenty two, and at that
point you were traveling, you were interviewing people, you know,
you were right in the middle of it all and
it was all quite full on. It's been quite intense,
hasn't it.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
It was really intense. It was the scariest, most um
heart breaking is the wrong word, but the most intense,
the most rewarding, most joyful, all the extreme emotions you
can have on a job I had on this one.
It took me a lot of places.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Have you enjoyed that side of it, of pulling it
all together and the research and the directing and the
producing and everything.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh, I've enjoyed every moment of it, I must say.
You know, obviously I didn't do it on my own,
so I had experienced editors sort of guiding me, and
a wonderful research assistant when Wen Lee, who I hope
to work with her again in some capacity. Anyway, all
I'm saying is it was an amazing team effort by
(01:47):
a lot of fabulous kiwis to bring the story of
New Zealand's least known famous person.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
For those who aren't familiar with Margaret Moth, tell us
about her.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
So Margaret Moth grew She was born in Gisbon and
then raised in Wanganui, and she had five siblings, born
to a couple who really never wanted children, and all
the things that transpired in her childhood made her somebody
who just was hungry for extreme life experiences sky diving
(02:23):
and X and drugs and roller skating like night roller
skating urban environments kind of behavior, you know, And eventually
she went off to war as a camera person and
found her metier. It's where she belonged. And then Madison's
(02:45):
used it's kind of a humph for who is this
person really?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And that was going to be my next question, because
she's a really complex character, isn't she? After everything you've
found out and what you know, what do you make
of Margaret Moth.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I don't know if it's nature or nurture, but the
thing that I think that she was struggling so hard
to escape her loveless, pitiless childhood actually became her superpower.
When catastrophe struck, it became her superpower and it's what
(03:24):
enabled her to survive and become redeemed in some sense
that she lived, learned to live a life of service
to other people instead of just consuming everything that came
in her way.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You've said that she was a woman with an enormous
appetite and no qualms. What do you mean by this?
Speaker 4 (03:50):
There was.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What do I mean by that? Well, she certainly enjoyed
the pleasures of the flesh and felt no shame about that.
She never wanted to have babies. I believe because of
her mother's utterances and experiences and you know, popping out
a baby every year or so. And I just never
(04:17):
wanted to replicate her mother's life in the life that
her sisters took. You know, they all left home at
fifteen or younger, they all were pregnant pretty quickly, and
she just wanted no part of that. So she actually
had to go to court and fight for the right
to be sterilized, and she did and never never regretted it,
(04:38):
never looked back.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
She lived such an authentic and courageous life, didn't she, Lucy.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, I mean here's the conundrum. She lived courageously in
that she was very honest about who she was or
the things she wanted to do, but she was still
hiding something, and she was very she kept things very
siloed off from one another, really compartment lies, and that
(05:06):
her work people never knew anything about her private life,
and they're all quite shocked when they saw the film
and vice versa. You know, she kept everybody's secrets, She
kept everybody distinct from one another. And so so I
mean authenticity, does you do have questions about that? You know,
(05:28):
like how comfortable was she really if you need to
hide elements of yourself from other people. But it's just
what she chose to do, and I don't think she
suffered any qualms about any of it was it was
all perfectly in line with her conscience.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It's a really interesting comment you make about people's reaction
to the film, Lucy that knew her.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, I think they're really shocked. A lot of them.
It took them a few a few viewings to come
to terms with it. You know, you're used to seeing
seeing you know, journalists or from CNN who have a
corporate identity were shocked that I would make a film
that showed the dirty laundry. But the fact is Margaret
(06:16):
was not ashamed of any of it, and so I
felt like I had a sacred agreement of compact with
Margaret or Margaret's ghost to tell the truth as I
saw it, without fear or favor. Is how she lived
her life, and I tried to carry that through in
(06:38):
the film. So there's things in there that anybody who's
trying to keep their image manicured or public consumption were
shocked that I would that I would portray on screen.
But I just felt like that was part of my
deal with Margaret.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I think Margaret would prefer that, And of course Margaret
passed away twenty ten. Wasn't it Lucy from cancer?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Right? Yeah, yeah, yes, there's a bit of a story
with that actually, which we didn't cover because it would
have bogged the film the pace of the film down.
But the life saving transfusion that she got in Sarajeva
when she was hit by a sniper's bullet while driving
to work with her comrades, it actually gave her hippatitis,
(07:26):
and in those days there was no good treatment for it,
and it caused suicidal ideation, all kinds of struggles through
that treatment, and eventually, in all likelihood, that contributed to
the cancer that she eventually died of. So that's one
of those weird wush me pull you elements of that
(07:49):
happen in a brave life like hers, you know, where
what doesn't you know, what doesn't destroy me makes me stronger.
But sometimes what saved me will also lead to my destruction.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
What is it about war correspondence Lucy like Margaret that
keep coming back to.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I couldn't find and I asked this of many of them.
You know, what's the commonality with people like you, and
they said, there's none. People come from happy childhoods, people
come from miserable childhood. There's no there's no real correlation
except that once they go most people and who choose
(08:28):
to go to that environment become trauma bonded to the job.
And that's only my observation, that's my concept. Nobody else
they might they might pooh pooh that, but in my opinion,
they've become trauma bonded to the job. And when you've
been in some kind of a global error with a
(08:49):
whole city is suffering the same experience, at the same time,
you kind of only want to be with those people
who understand what you've experienced. And so when they go home,
they're very abilities in in the normal world because nobody
understands what they've been through. And then when a conflict
(09:11):
kicks off, they want to get right back there because
their nervous system is tied to that that there's a
lot not a love of you, there's some sort of
a chemical romance going on with that level of stress
that their body just wants to wants to dance.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
What do you want people to take away from this documentary?
Because I think it's a fascinating subject. But you know,
I think Margaret's going to have an impact on people.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I hope. So there's these things I want them to
take away, and one is slightly it's the beet story
of the film, which is I want to a gender,
a respect for the profession, because in my opinion, there's
no self interest in those people being on the front line.
They're really doing it because they need the truth to
be told, they need to bear witness, they need to
(10:03):
document it. And from mar herself, I hope that people
look at her and go, wow, if she did so
much when so many things had been ripped away from
her beauty, her ability to communicate, her career, her teeth,
her tongue, all the stuff, and she achieved so much,
(10:24):
then who am I not to reach that little bit
aigh for the thing that I dream I dream of,
the thing that I desire is just outside your region.
If you reach a little higher, you might just get it.
So I hope that Margaret inspires them to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I know that you have been asked to direct before
and you sort of said no and things, and this
was the first time you've launched into a project like this.
I get the feeling you might be hooked on this
directing thing, now, are you.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I'm afraid I am. I think in the last twenty
five years. My first job was when I was eighteen,
so that would thirty eight years. But say in the
last twenty five years, while I was having kids and
all that stuff, I just I didn't have my full
(11:16):
bandwidth at my disposal. And I think something has happened.
When this story came up, it exploded something in my
mind and made me commit, even I had no idea
how I was going to pull it off, commit to
something well outside my list of desires, And it was
(11:38):
so intoxicating and so terrifying that I'm trawing and bonded
to the job myself. So I'm working real hard to
get back to that state of war asap.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
It is all it is going to be all about, though,
that subject, isn't it. I mean, that's what drew you
into this project. Marcro Moth just.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Her I must have. I must have taken in everything
I needed to know about her in that news report
when she was shot back in nineteen ninety two, And
because the minute I got that email saying do you
want to make a movie about my best friend who
(12:22):
died some years ago. I instantly jumped on it. I was,
to be honest, I was terrified that it was just
a form letter and that it had gone out to
a thousand other people and that they would get it,
and like, I'm normally just not that competitive, But something
possessed me in that moment and made me commit to
something outside myself. And I feel like, you know, Margaret
(12:46):
picked me up and booted me through the door and
made me do it because it was not kind of
of my making in some way.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
And now here we are, and here we are, and
congratulations on premiering at Sundance. It must be lovely though
to be able to bring it home to New Zealand
as well.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yes, finally, because we are who I made it for.
I just just thought it was such a shame that
this wild character, one of our own, went to the
ends of the earth, to the ends of human experience
and back and we don't really know much about it.
(13:25):
So I hope you'll enjoy.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well, what does this mean for Alexa Crow, because we're
also enjoying the last series of my life as Murder,
and you know, we don't really want that to disappear. Either.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Neither do I because I actually love watching that show.
You know, it's such kind of gentle, it's super accessible.
You don't have to you know, you're not going to
be in pain, and the world is full of pain
right now.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
And that show is just my little mitzvah. It's my little,
you know, little gift of love to not just the
world but my own career. You know, I've done a
lot of sex and violence and all that kind of
growth stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And and I just didn't want to do that when
we first when I was first approached about Alexa, So yeah,
I was like, let's make something good, Let's make something kind.
You know. It was Balm per Hour and Saul. So
I'm delighted that other people are enjoying it and getting
to see my beautiful city, getting to see Auckland as
(14:26):
a sexy urban environment very much.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So well, Lucy, thank you so much for your time today,
and best of luck with the documentary. I'm sure it's
going to do exceptionally well and be very very popular
at the film festival.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Thanks Fantasica, Thanks for time.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Never look Away makes its New Zealand premiere at the
New Zealand International Film Festival this week.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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