August 10, 2024 • 14 mins
A highly-decorated former NZSAS commander has opened up about the Kiwi unit's military operations in a new memoir.
Serviceman J details Jamie Pennell's recruitment story and training journey - and lifts the lid on the NZSAS's Afghanistan operations, including the deadly Kabul hotel siege.
Pennell says the selection process to join the unit was a difficult one - mentally, physically and spiritually.
"It's very brutal - and that's by design. Operations are quite difficult, so we have to replicate that in our selection process."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talk SEDB Right.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The New Zealand SAS is a highly secretive unit which
what goes on in the SAS stays in the SAS,
So much so that when my next guest was awarded
New Zealand's second highest military honor, the Gallantry Star, he
was only identified as Serviceman J. But now he's ready
to tell his story. Ex Commander Jamie Panell served as
a soldier and a leader in the New Zealand SAS
(00:35):
for eighteen years. He was deployed to Afghanistan numerous times.
His Gallantry Star was awarded for his role in bravery
and the Taliban's deadly siege on Carbell's International or Intercontinental Hotel.
Jamie has shared his untold story in a new book.
The book is called Serviceman Jay, and Jamie Panell is
in the studio with me. Now, good morning, how are you.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I'm very good, Thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So let's talk about that little elephant in the room.
First start, As a member of the SAS, you can't
talk about what you do, So how have you been
able to write this book?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It's taken a long period of time. I guess. I
started getting told by my friends, basically, people both inside
and outside the regiment, you know, hey, we think you've
got a story to tell. I think you should write
a book. And I mean I laughed it off, you know,
back in the day, but yeah, after a while, it
was quite resounding. But what really pushed me across the
(01:30):
line was when a good friend of mine who operated
with the in the squadron, Steve Eskin, he was killed
in the Porthill fires and that's in my book as well.
Fighting Porthill Fires in twenty fifteen. Unfortunately the monsoon bucket
wrapped around the tail rader and he went in. But
after his death, Paul Leskin, his father, reached out to
me and said, hey, Jamie, you know, can you write
(01:53):
something about Steve's time in the regiment as a soldier
because you're you know, you're insane squadron and you went
across a whole lot of different operations together. And I said, yeah,
you no worries. And from that point, yeah, it was
sort of you know, started writing that and then I thought, well,
come this farm as we'll just keep on going. So
here we are what.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Kind of person do you have to be to make
it into the esses.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
You've got to have a lot of grit. I mean,
selection is the most hardest from my perspective, physical, mental, emotional,
and spiritual journey you've ever taken in your life. It's
very brutal, and that's you know, by design, operations are
quite difficult, and so we have to replicate that in
our selection process. I guess what trumps what you need
(02:39):
to get in and stay in is this here? And
for your listeners who aren't looking at us, I'm pointing
at my head, my brain, and it's and it's having
control over that, because at the end of the day,
you know, regardless of how big you are, big or
musty or small you are, you know you need to
get control over your mind and that'll take you through
to the end. Your mind can be your greatest champion
(03:03):
and it can also be your greatest subversity. So once
you've got control of that, you know you're in. It'll
bode well, you know, for your journey in the regiment.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Why did you want to be an essays officer?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, you know, early on, very early on, when I
was a young fellow, I was always playing war as
kids do. When I put my application in right at
the age of seventeen and a half is when you
can put your application in to join the Army. I
actually put on my application form, which I had to
look at twenty years later, that I wanted to join
(03:35):
the es Seas And I'm not too sure why I
actually put that down at the particular point in time.
I think I might have known about the regiment being
out there. We lived out in west Aukland. You know,
they're out at hobsonbol and there's a special unit. But
I kind of, yeah, it just I don't know. I
guess it was in me, you know, that that's what
I wanted to do, and I pursued it pretty quickly. So,
I mean, I did my basic training in nineteen ninety four.
(03:58):
In nineteen ninety five, I did my core training into
the infantry, and then in nineteen ninety six I did
my first selection course and yeah, I mean a year
after really you know, joining the army, and then I
did my next one in nineteen ninety seven, so and
then I got through. So yeah, I guess, you know,
it being a special unit, operations attract me as well.
But you know, going that far back here, it was
(04:20):
very difficult to sort of pinpoint it.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
That selection process you mentioned it is so brutal. Is
there a particular point that often breaks people?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Is there the jerry cans?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
About the jerry can?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, so the jerry cans is a barrier test. I
mean that's a twenty hour barrier test. You're carrying all
your kits, so you're carrying about you know, thirty cag
is a kid on your back. So you've got your
pack and your webbing in your offe, which way is
about thirty kg's and then you've got to carry jerry
cans and you know you've got fill water filled with water. Yeah,
each you know, jerry cans are twenty leaders so that
equals twenty kg's and so you've got you know, six
(04:53):
jerry cans between five people. That means that the person
at the front carries two jerry cans for a period
of time and then you switch around, so yeah, ten hours.
You know, you walk out to a point and you
walk back, and that there is Yeah, once you get
past the barrier test, we get very low numbers leaving
(05:13):
at that point. And why would you you know, once
you've gone through that. So, yeah, that we've past that
point in time, you're kind of looking at the person
that's going to get to the end. But you know,
selection course is really just a foot in the door.
It's you know, I mean, we're just checking you.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
You did a tour in East team were then you
went to Afghanistan in two thousand and one. I'm a
bit surprised at how much you had to rely on
line read to get the resources and the things that
you need. Is our military really that under resources.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Not now, you know, I mean we get everything we
need and when we're you know, highly effective, and we
still were back then as well, highly capable. But I
guess it was just that point in time in history
that you know, the military haven't done much since Vietnam.
I guess, I mean we did, you know, we supported
UN operations around the world. It's a little bit different.
We had the Golf War there, which we supported as well,
(06:03):
But essentially, yeah, I don't think I think we forgot
what the regiment was all about, you know, I mean,
and probably you know, the defense force and what we
could actually do. And so yeah, we had to yeah,
you know, get you know, our hum v's or our
dumbees through you know, traysy line red and a couple
of bottles of whiskey. So the Americans were happy to
(06:24):
oblige with that. But you know, once we got those
those dumbees and we had to create them into fighting vehicles,
and so we had to go out to the dump
and you know, cut up old bed frames and bits
and pieces to make our whip amounts, and you know,
a bit of plywood to make boxes for our food.
But you know, the old Kiwi Ingenuity number eight wire
approach put us in real good stead.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
You were doing patrols looking for Taliban and weapons. Was
it easy to know who was Taliban?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Early on? It was the wild were so you know,
there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people
driving around the countryside with weapons. A lot of raw
opium was being transported about as well, So you don't
just you know, see weapons and engage. You know, there
has to be a threat. And so when you see
guys with weapons, they could be anyone. But you know
(07:12):
the Taliban will you know, if they start shooting at you, well,
then yeah, you know who you're dealing with the locals.
The locals aren't going to have a crack. You're not
gonna you're not looking at a conveyl of eight vehicles
with heavy weapons and you're just going to get to
have a crack at it for no reason. So a
lot of people didn't even know where we were there.
So we go into some of those deeper areas and
(07:33):
they'd be they'd say, well, who are you? It was
very strange.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, what was the landscape like? What were the people like?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Amazing? People are amazing, accommodating, some not all. It's a
tribal you know, it's quite tribal there. The Hazarans were
very pro the coalition once they knew what we're there for,
so they are very peaceful. We'd you know, have sit
down meals with them and meetings about things that we're
looking at or after. But in general, the Pashtun areas
(08:03):
were quite a high threat. Afghan Stan is an amazing landscape, mountains, beautiful,
bright blue lakes. Yeah, the people amazing. It's just I
hope that well, my hope for Afghanistan is that they
actually get their act together and you know, people can
go over there and experience that it's made. It'll be
(08:24):
just the best adventure playground you could ever you could
ever find.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You were awarded the New Zealand Gallantry Star, the second
highest military award. Can you tell me a little bit
about about why you got it? And was that the
most difficult circumstance you found yourself in?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yep, that definitely that operation was the peak experience. And
then obviously it's in the book. I mean, I'm not
too sure how I can break that down into a into.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
A short can we know?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's just it was just.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
It was a very sic Yeah, it was a very
significant event. I mean just I guess very briefly, nine
terrorists took over the Intercontinental Hotel and Cabul late at night,
killed a number of guests, took positions up around the hotel,
particularly on the roof, and basically waited for our arrival.
Took us ten hours. We went through the hotel. We
(09:16):
had a number of significant engagements, major gunbattle in a
stairwell on the rooftop and some pieces. Yeah, but it
was ten hours that sort of went in a heartbeat.
We had a couple of guys that got wounded from
it through significant events. One of the one of my
teammates got the direct brunt of a suicide vest being
(09:38):
detonated off one of the attackers. Another one got shot
through the side of the head. So it was a
big night, you know what I mean, And a lot
went on at the end of the day. You know,
it's not like I'm saying, Hey, I think I need
to getantry stuff for this. You know, we just do
the job and you know, the awards get handed out.
But at the end of the day. Yeah, like I
(09:59):
said before many times, is that you know, I went
across with the eighteen. You know, I had a great
bunch of guys, both badged and non badged. You know,
we're traveling with enablers, and you know, people like that
make you look good as a leader, you know what
I mean. And I hold that award for them for
the guys that didn't get recognized.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
When you talk about a big night, it's not the
kind of big night that most of us have. And
it makes you think what it is like to have
that lived experience and then just come back to New
Zealand to normal life and to fit.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Back in very difficult. That particular tour was the fourth
tour done to Afghanistan. The tours my early tours, the
first two tours, which were basically long range reconnaissance, reconnaissance
patrols in Afghanistan, you know, fact finding. The third and
the fourth were in Kabul, and that was all close
quarter to combat, so you're going from long range engagements
(10:50):
to short range and it was pretty intense. And those
spectacular tests were pretty intense because it was up close
and personal. So at the end of that one, I
remember coming back home and we were coming back home
pretty quick, in about a week. And so you know,
when you're on call and high tempo and those having
been through those lived experiences. You know, I'm sitting outside
Pepakura camp and you know, I'm going from a significantly
(11:13):
high threat environment carrying weapons with people watching my back
to standing outside the front gate of camp, no weapons,
no one there, and you know, my brain's three quarters
if not more, back in Afghanistan, you know what I mean.
And it's like a dream. Seriously, it's like a dream,
and it's like a dream for weeks. You know, that's
what happened to me. So you get home, you know,
(11:35):
you go to sleep in your beard, you wake up thinking,
and wake up in Afghanistan. You're not You're in New Zealand.
So trying to integrate back into society is a very
difficult process, which is why, you know, the minds. You've
got to get control of your mind and what's going on.
But at that particular point in time, we didn't really
know how to really assimilate back in. We kind of
(11:56):
had the tools, but they went deep enough. I mean,
I'm not too sure how guys with families were coping.
That would have been pretty difficult. Well, now they've got
a young fellow here and what that would look like
because it definitely takes a huge amount of time and
you have to know what's going on to be able to,
you know, to react.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Do we look after people?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, I think we do. Yeah, I think we do now.
I mean we've learned to our lesson. I mean, you know,
it's it's one of those things that all the supports here,
all the supporters there, you can take it if you want,
but you've got to meet that. You've got to meet
the army halfway or the defense halfway. And a lot
of the boys won't because the boys, you know, I'm
not going to talk to a psychologist about my problems,
you know, Man to man, It's just one of those
(12:39):
things that we have to get over ourselves. And you know,
it's lucky that we do have guys around that we
can talk to that have been through the same experience,
so we can sort of you know, decompress.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, hey, Jamie. After leaving the Defense Force, you started
working with high performance athletes. You work with the Warriors
for a little while there. Now you're at Dilworth School
developing their learning an outdoors program.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Is it really fulfilling? Is it great to be working
with young.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
People one hundred percent and do with a great school.
The philosophy is a great you know, which is what
drew me in. The boys are amazing, you know, we're
well resourced to learning it out. The Ball's program. You
won't see anything like this in Australasia and can bet
money on that. But it's just really good. Are good.
It's been like a reverse mentoring role. It's the boys
(13:21):
are helping me evolve as they should, you know what
I mean. But even more so because of my experience
as well. The approach that I have to take with
ten year old boys and then you know, seventeen year
old young men, you know, has to be completely different.
So there's a lot of calm and patience, and it's
really enjoyable, you know, going out there and just you know,
getting in and outdoors with these boys, watching them grow
(13:43):
over time, you know, because it's longitude norn scaffolded approach
that we've got with this program. And yeah, it's just
been amazing. It's liberating, gets me up every morning, a
lot of energy, you know, it's great. We're yeah, we're
doing really well. Haven't brought the Jerry cans out yet, No,
and I never will. We eat lots of pizza and
have ice cream though, and that's a great thing.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
J f Andel, thank you so much for coming in
a delight to meet you, and thank you so much
for the book. It's been very enlightening.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Serviceman Jay is in stores now.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talk SEDB Right.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The New Zealand SAS is a highly secretive unit which
what goes on in the SAS stays in the SAS,
So much so that when my next guest was awarded
New Zealand's second highest military honor, the Gallantry Star, he
was only identified as Serviceman J. But now he's ready
to tell his story. Ex Commander Jamie Panell served as
a soldier and a leader in the New Zealand SAS
(00:35):
for eighteen years. He was deployed to Afghanistan numerous times.
His Gallantry Star was awarded for his role in bravery
and the Taliban's deadly siege on Carbell's International or Intercontinental Hotel.
Jamie has shared his untold story in a new book.
The book is called Serviceman Jay, and Jamie Panell is
in the studio with me. Now, good morning, how are you.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I'm very good, Thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So let's talk about that little elephant in the room.
First start, As a member of the SAS, you can't
talk about what you do, So how have you been
able to write this book?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It's taken a long period of time. I guess. I
started getting told by my friends, basically, people both inside
and outside the regiment, you know, hey, we think you've
got a story to tell. I think you should write
a book. And I mean I laughed it off, you know,
back in the day, but yeah, after a while, it
was quite resounding. But what really pushed me across the
(01:30):
line was when a good friend of mine who operated
with the in the squadron, Steve Eskin, he was killed
in the Porthill fires and that's in my book as well.
Fighting Porthill Fires in twenty fifteen. Unfortunately the monsoon bucket
wrapped around the tail rader and he went in. But
after his death, Paul Leskin, his father, reached out to
me and said, hey, Jamie, you know, can you write
(01:53):
something about Steve's time in the regiment as a soldier
because you're you know, you're insane squadron and you went
across a whole lot of different operations together. And I said, yeah,
you no worries. And from that point, yeah, it was
sort of you know, started writing that and then I thought, well,
come this farm as we'll just keep on going. So
here we are what.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Kind of person do you have to be to make
it into the esses.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
You've got to have a lot of grit. I mean,
selection is the most hardest from my perspective, physical, mental, emotional,
and spiritual journey you've ever taken in your life. It's
very brutal, and that's you know, by design, operations are
quite difficult, and so we have to replicate that in
our selection process. I guess what trumps what you need
(02:39):
to get in and stay in is this here? And
for your listeners who aren't looking at us, I'm pointing
at my head, my brain, and it's and it's having
control over that, because at the end of the day,
you know, regardless of how big you are, big or
musty or small you are, you know you need to
get control over your mind and that'll take you through
to the end. Your mind can be your greatest champion
(03:03):
and it can also be your greatest subversity. So once
you've got control of that, you know you're in. It'll
bode well, you know, for your journey in the regiment.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Why did you want to be an essays officer?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, you know, early on, very early on, when I
was a young fellow, I was always playing war as
kids do. When I put my application in right at
the age of seventeen and a half is when you
can put your application in to join the Army. I
actually put on my application form, which I had to
look at twenty years later, that I wanted to join
(03:35):
the es Seas And I'm not too sure why I
actually put that down at the particular point in time.
I think I might have known about the regiment being
out there. We lived out in west Aukland. You know,
they're out at hobsonbol and there's a special unit. But
I kind of, yeah, it just I don't know. I
guess it was in me, you know, that that's what
I wanted to do, and I pursued it pretty quickly. So,
I mean, I did my basic training in nineteen ninety four.
(03:58):
In nineteen ninety five, I did my core training into
the infantry, and then in nineteen ninety six I did
my first selection course and yeah, I mean a year
after really you know, joining the army, and then I
did my next one in nineteen ninety seven, so and
then I got through. So yeah, I guess, you know,
it being a special unit, operations attract me as well.
But you know, going that far back here, it was
(04:20):
very difficult to sort of pinpoint it.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
That selection process you mentioned it is so brutal. Is
there a particular point that often breaks people?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Is there the jerry cans?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
About the jerry can?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, so the jerry cans is a barrier test. I
mean that's a twenty hour barrier test. You're carrying all
your kits, so you're carrying about you know, thirty cag
is a kid on your back. So you've got your
pack and your webbing in your offe, which way is
about thirty kg's and then you've got to carry jerry
cans and you know you've got fill water filled with water. Yeah,
each you know, jerry cans are twenty leaders so that
equals twenty kg's and so you've got you know, six
(04:53):
jerry cans between five people. That means that the person
at the front carries two jerry cans for a period
of time and then you switch around, so yeah, ten hours.
You know, you walk out to a point and you
walk back, and that there is Yeah, once you get
past the barrier test, we get very low numbers leaving
(05:13):
at that point. And why would you you know, once
you've gone through that. So, yeah, that we've past that
point in time, you're kind of looking at the person
that's going to get to the end. But you know,
selection course is really just a foot in the door.
It's you know, I mean, we're just checking you.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
You did a tour in East team were then you
went to Afghanistan in two thousand and one. I'm a
bit surprised at how much you had to rely on
line read to get the resources and the things that
you need. Is our military really that under resources.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Not now, you know, I mean we get everything we
need and when we're you know, highly effective, and we
still were back then as well, highly capable. But I
guess it was just that point in time in history
that you know, the military haven't done much since Vietnam.
I guess, I mean we did, you know, we supported
UN operations around the world. It's a little bit different.
We had the Golf War there, which we supported as well,
(06:03):
But essentially, yeah, I don't think I think we forgot
what the regiment was all about, you know, I mean,
and probably you know, the defense force and what we
could actually do. And so yeah, we had to yeah,
you know, get you know, our hum v's or our
dumbees through you know, traysy line red and a couple
of bottles of whiskey. So the Americans were happy to
(06:24):
oblige with that. But you know, once we got those
those dumbees and we had to create them into fighting vehicles,
and so we had to go out to the dump
and you know, cut up old bed frames and bits
and pieces to make our whip amounts, and you know,
a bit of plywood to make boxes for our food.
But you know, the old Kiwi Ingenuity number eight wire
approach put us in real good stead.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
You were doing patrols looking for Taliban and weapons. Was
it easy to know who was Taliban?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Early on? It was the wild were so you know,
there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people
driving around the countryside with weapons. A lot of raw
opium was being transported about as well, So you don't
just you know, see weapons and engage. You know, there
has to be a threat. And so when you see
guys with weapons, they could be anyone. But you know
(07:12):
the Taliban will you know, if they start shooting at you, well,
then yeah, you know who you're dealing with the locals.
The locals aren't going to have a crack. You're not
gonna you're not looking at a conveyl of eight vehicles
with heavy weapons and you're just going to get to
have a crack at it for no reason. So a
lot of people didn't even know where we were there.
So we go into some of those deeper areas and
(07:33):
they'd be they'd say, well, who are you? It was
very strange.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, what was the landscape like? What were the people like?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Amazing? People are amazing, accommodating, some not all. It's a
tribal you know, it's quite tribal there. The Hazarans were
very pro the coalition once they knew what we're there for,
so they are very peaceful. We'd you know, have sit
down meals with them and meetings about things that we're
looking at or after. But in general, the Pashtun areas
(08:03):
were quite a high threat. Afghan Stan is an amazing landscape, mountains, beautiful,
bright blue lakes. Yeah, the people amazing. It's just I
hope that well, my hope for Afghanistan is that they
actually get their act together and you know, people can
go over there and experience that it's made. It'll be
(08:24):
just the best adventure playground you could ever you could
ever find.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You were awarded the New Zealand Gallantry Star, the second
highest military award. Can you tell me a little bit
about about why you got it? And was that the
most difficult circumstance you found yourself in?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yep, that definitely that operation was the peak experience. And
then obviously it's in the book. I mean, I'm not
too sure how I can break that down into a into.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
A short can we know?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's just it was just.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
It was a very sic Yeah, it was a very
significant event. I mean just I guess very briefly, nine
terrorists took over the Intercontinental Hotel and Cabul late at night,
killed a number of guests, took positions up around the hotel,
particularly on the roof, and basically waited for our arrival.
Took us ten hours. We went through the hotel. We
(09:16):
had a number of significant engagements, major gunbattle in a
stairwell on the rooftop and some pieces. Yeah, but it
was ten hours that sort of went in a heartbeat.
We had a couple of guys that got wounded from
it through significant events. One of the one of my
teammates got the direct brunt of a suicide vest being
(09:38):
detonated off one of the attackers. Another one got shot
through the side of the head. So it was a
big night, you know what I mean, And a lot
went on at the end of the day. You know,
it's not like I'm saying, Hey, I think I need
to getantry stuff for this. You know, we just do
the job and you know, the awards get handed out.
But at the end of the day. Yeah, like I
(09:59):
said before many times, is that you know, I went
across with the eighteen. You know, I had a great
bunch of guys, both badged and non badged. You know,
we're traveling with enablers, and you know, people like that
make you look good as a leader, you know what
I mean. And I hold that award for them for
the guys that didn't get recognized.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
When you talk about a big night, it's not the
kind of big night that most of us have. And
it makes you think what it is like to have
that lived experience and then just come back to New
Zealand to normal life and to fit.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Back in very difficult. That particular tour was the fourth
tour done to Afghanistan. The tours my early tours, the
first two tours, which were basically long range reconnaissance, reconnaissance
patrols in Afghanistan, you know, fact finding. The third and
the fourth were in Kabul, and that was all close
quarter to combat, so you're going from long range engagements
(10:50):
to short range and it was pretty intense. And those
spectacular tests were pretty intense because it was up close
and personal. So at the end of that one, I
remember coming back home and we were coming back home
pretty quick, in about a week. And so you know,
when you're on call and high tempo and those having
been through those lived experiences. You know, I'm sitting outside
Pepakura camp and you know, I'm going from a significantly
(11:13):
high threat environment carrying weapons with people watching my back
to standing outside the front gate of camp, no weapons,
no one there, and you know, my brain's three quarters
if not more, back in Afghanistan, you know what I mean.
And it's like a dream. Seriously, it's like a dream,
and it's like a dream for weeks. You know, that's
what happened to me. So you get home, you know,
(11:35):
you go to sleep in your beard, you wake up thinking,
and wake up in Afghanistan. You're not You're in New Zealand.
So trying to integrate back into society is a very
difficult process, which is why, you know, the minds. You've
got to get control of your mind and what's going on.
But at that particular point in time, we didn't really
know how to really assimilate back in. We kind of
(11:56):
had the tools, but they went deep enough. I mean,
I'm not too sure how guys with families were coping.
That would have been pretty difficult. Well, now they've got
a young fellow here and what that would look like
because it definitely takes a huge amount of time and
you have to know what's going on to be able to,
you know, to react.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Do we look after people?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, I think we do. Yeah, I think we do now.
I mean we've learned to our lesson. I mean, you know,
it's it's one of those things that all the supports here,
all the supporters there, you can take it if you want,
but you've got to meet that. You've got to meet
the army halfway or the defense halfway. And a lot
of the boys won't because the boys, you know, I'm
not going to talk to a psychologist about my problems,
you know, Man to man, It's just one of those
(12:39):
things that we have to get over ourselves. And you know,
it's lucky that we do have guys around that we
can talk to that have been through the same experience,
so we can sort of you know, decompress.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, hey, Jamie. After leaving the Defense Force, you started
working with high performance athletes. You work with the Warriors
for a little while there. Now you're at Dilworth School
developing their learning an outdoors program.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Is it really fulfilling? Is it great to be working
with young.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
People one hundred percent and do with a great school.
The philosophy is a great you know, which is what
drew me in. The boys are amazing, you know, we're
well resourced to learning it out. The Ball's program. You
won't see anything like this in Australasia and can bet
money on that. But it's just really good. Are good.
It's been like a reverse mentoring role. It's the boys
(13:21):
are helping me evolve as they should, you know what
I mean. But even more so because of my experience
as well. The approach that I have to take with
ten year old boys and then you know, seventeen year
old young men, you know, has to be completely different.
So there's a lot of calm and patience, and it's
really enjoyable, you know, going out there and just you know,
getting in and outdoors with these boys, watching them grow
(13:43):
over time, you know, because it's longitude norn scaffolded approach
that we've got with this program. And yeah, it's just
been amazing. It's liberating, gets me up every morning, a
lot of energy, you know, it's great. We're yeah, we're
doing really well. Haven't brought the Jerry cans out yet, No,
and I never will. We eat lots of pizza and
have ice cream though, and that's a great thing.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
J f Andel, thank you so much for coming in
a delight to meet you, and thank you so much
for the book. It's been very enlightening.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Appreciate the time.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Serviceman Jay is in stores now.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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