September 7, 2024 • 10 mins
Regulation Minister David Seymour agrees Kiwis are struggling with current grocery prices - but doesn't think tighter regulations are the solution.
The Grocery Commissioner's recent annual report into the market highlighted a lack of competition and meaningful improvement amid soaring costs for consumers.
Seymour says more rules and regulations won't help improve the situation.
"What we need is more competitors and more competition. Actually, the more rules and regulations you put on them, the less likely that is."
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
EDB regulation Minister David Seymour is rubbish and calls for
tougher regulation in the grocery sector. On Wednesday, the Grocery
Commissioner released his first report into the state of the
supermarket sector and it was scathing. The Commissioner said there
had been little meaningful improvement and competition, and said he
would launch further inquiry into wholesale offerings to help. Commerce
(00:33):
Minister Andrew Bailey has backed the Commissioner's approach, but ACT
is promising a pushback and to discuss regulation. To discuss
this regulation, Minister David Seymour is with me now, thanks
so much for your time, David, Good.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Morning, Good morning Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
What were your thoughts on the report.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Well, you can see why they've done it. First of all,
people have been hard up for three or four years
now with inflation and it's the groceries that people really feel.
You know, you see people getting something having to take
it out of the trolley because they're budgeting. So so
there's an obvious political lightning rod the last government created
(01:12):
this grocery commissioner passed a pretty lengthy piece of legislation
called the Grocery Industry Competition Act. And then, of course
every year this grocery commissioner has to produce a report.
So he's produced one and said everything's terrible, we need
more rules and regulations. Well, hang on a minute. I
mean that was the basic story that we had when
(01:36):
he was put in place. And when he started doing
these reports, they created a whole lot of rules, such
as saying that the grocery store has to sell to
its competitors so that they can compete with them at
a greed price. And a whole lot of things got
put in place. And what's interesting about the report is
the only place where things seem to be getting a
(01:57):
little bit better is there's a bit more competition in Auckland,
because you've got your ethnic supermarkets, you've got your Pharaoh Fresh,
you've got your your cost Co. All of a sudden,
you see, maybe a light bulb goes on. What we
need is more competitors and more competition. But actually the
(02:17):
more rules and regulations you put on them, the less
likely that is. So what I would say is yep,
big problem, big political issue. But what we actually need
to do is take the real lesson, which is more
regulation has really done much. What does tend to work
is getting more competitors in. And you know my view,
we need to open up investment from overseas because there's
(02:39):
chances are the competitors going to come from there. So
we're doing that with the OA. We're going to change
resource management law so it's actually easy to build things.
So you can imagine an older for example, coming in
and building the distribution centers, building the stores and the framework.
But those are not putting in more rules. It's actually
taking the rules away, so it's easier to get more competition.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You may we should probably make it clear that you
weren't in support of the creation of the growtherymmissioner in
the first place. I'm presuming David, that your mind hasn't
changed regarding that role.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
No, well, I don't think that it was a good
idea to create them. That You've got to remember. Also,
I'm part of a comfort So ultimately, what are our
government supports? I support, But you know a few people
of usked or do you advocate for less regulation and
later rules so that you can get more business done? Well, yes,
(03:33):
I do. And I just make a point about values that.
You know, it's kind of easy to point out what's
wrong and say it's those guys alter and I've been
too successful, but that's too big, that've made too much money.
But I just feel at some point in New Zealand,
we're going to have to start asking ourselves, okay, sure,
how do we make it better? Oh?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I think that's exactly what people want to hear. As
a shopper, I would really like to know to see
some tangible difference in the next few months. You know,
when I leave the supermarket the impact it has on
my wallet. You made a comment that of regulation prices,
we would already have the cheapest groceries in the world.
So do you think that supermarkets are already overregulated or
are we regulating the wrong things.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I think a whole economy is overregulated, and that's why
the government has a ministry for regulation. At the sport
it's only quity people, but you've got someone out of
the thirty government departments who's actually saying to the others,
wait a minute. People are spending too much time on
rules and regulations and they're not spending enough time on
(04:37):
being able to get on with doing whatever it is
that I'm doing. I mean, I'm actually just on a
Sunday morning walk and I'm opposite an early childhood center
in the EPSOM electorate. I remember visiting it and they
told me that every morning they wake up they have
to follow three hundred and three rules. And people wonder
why we have cost problems with early childhood. The people
(04:59):
they're spend too much time on compliance, not enough time
bringing up, looking after and expanding the minds of small children.
So yes, I would say right across the board, we're overregulated,
and the solution to many of our problems is to
reduce the compliance time and increase their productive time.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So if we're going to create more legitimate competition without
the regulation and as you said, you know, open up
to overseas investments, clear up the resource management, make that
easier bringing competition. None of that is going to happen overnight.
That's long term thinking to have an impact on our
grocery sector, isn't it? Is there not a place for
(05:37):
what the Grocery Commissioner is suggesting when he is going
to consider asking, you know, can we require the major
supermarkets to help to sell wholesale products to their small
rivals at the same rate that they sell it to
their stores. Is that not a simpler, quicker way of
creating some competition, Should it not also be.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Considered Well, we have a version of that now, and
you know it appears to have worked. I went to
the opening of a supermarket Hamilton about six months ago,
which has benefited. Some of their products come from that,
so they've gone out as an independent grosser. But the
flip side of it is when Costco came to town,
(06:17):
they gave them a five year exemption from the requirement
to sell to others because Costco said, look, this is
just nuts. We got to work out the price of everything,
what's a reasonable price to deliver it, how soon do
they want it, what sort of batch sizes are they having.
All of that's going to affect the price. Of course, Actually,
we're not going to come to New Zealand if you
(06:38):
make us do that. So I just make the point
that you know, sure, you can say it's a great idea.
The government will step in and force some companies to
sell to other companies at a quote unquote fair price,
But when it comes to calculating that price, it's another
The bureaucracy and see if it really was there. And
actually the working example is that when we did get
(06:58):
a big competitor who I think we need a lot
more of the likes of Costco, they actually had to
be exempted from that rule. Because these rules don't just
help competition, they also hither it. Now, I just make
the point that there's a lot of areas where people
will say, well, the solution to this is going to
take five years. I point to the electricity situation. There's
(07:19):
no government can get more water in the dams overnight.
There are things you can do to get more investment
and energy, but that takes years. I look at the
housing situation. You know there's not a lot you can
do to get an extra fifty thousand houses built overnight.
I think most of the big problems that New Zealand
faces actually have multi year solutions. And then someone comes
(07:43):
along and says, and I'm not blaming you, but you say, oh,
I want something that works tomorrow. And then I say, well, yes,
but that won't actually solve the problem. And there will
always be some people I say, I don't care. I
just want action. I think, to be honest, if we're
going to get to be the place where we all
know New Zealand can and should we all dream more.
Then it is going to take some sort of more
(08:03):
on us thinking and so longer ser them thinking to
solve some of these issues.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Commerce Minister Andrew Bailey has backed the report and supported
the approach of the commissioner. Do you think he's jumped
the gun on those comments.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Well, I've seen what Andrews said officially, you know, his
press release on the Beehive website says that actually he's
actual less read tape and less regulation. So that a
few people in the media have tried to say that
me and Andrew are saying different things. I'm not sure
we are. But in any event, what neants to happen
if the government is going to make any policy changes
(08:37):
in response to the Grocery Commissioner's suggestions, then what happens
that's got to actually come to Cabinet, have the discussion,
make the agreement, and then potentially take a law to
Parliament that then gets debated by all the MPs, not
just the government, and if that passes through then it
becomes a law. So there's a bit of water to
(08:58):
go under the bridge. But I've just you know, when
people have asked me, I've just said, well, you know,
we have actually tried putting more rules and regulations on them.
Even the guy that's responsible for putting them on says
it hasn't worked. So maybe it's time to you know,
as they say, ty Hall, and think about all what
is the underlying problem? How can we solve it? And
I would say it's easier to invest from overseas and
(09:21):
easier to develop property under resource management law, and the
government is actually taking those things on I think, you know,
quite quite boldly, and I think it's long overdue.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Minister. Thanks so much for your time. Appreciate the chattel.
Let you get back to your walk. It's a nice
morning out there.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Isn't Yeah. Yeah, well look spring spring is here, and
you know the temperatures are getting higher and inflation and
interest rates are slowly getting lower. So I know it's
been a bloody tough winter, but I think we are
starting to turn the corner.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Thank you so much. That was David Seymour.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
live to News Talks. It'd be from nine am Sunday
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
EDB regulation Minister David Seymour is rubbish and calls for
tougher regulation in the grocery sector. On Wednesday, the Grocery
Commissioner released his first report into the state of the
supermarket sector and it was scathing. The Commissioner said there
had been little meaningful improvement and competition, and said he
would launch further inquiry into wholesale offerings to help. Commerce
(00:33):
Minister Andrew Bailey has backed the Commissioner's approach, but ACT
is promising a pushback and to discuss regulation. To discuss
this regulation, Minister David Seymour is with me now, thanks
so much for your time, David, Good.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Morning, Good morning Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
What were your thoughts on the report.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Well, you can see why they've done it. First of all,
people have been hard up for three or four years
now with inflation and it's the groceries that people really feel.
You know, you see people getting something having to take
it out of the trolley because they're budgeting. So so
there's an obvious political lightning rod the last government created
(01:12):
this grocery commissioner passed a pretty lengthy piece of legislation
called the Grocery Industry Competition Act. And then, of course
every year this grocery commissioner has to produce a report.
So he's produced one and said everything's terrible, we need
more rules and regulations. Well, hang on a minute. I
mean that was the basic story that we had when
(01:36):
he was put in place. And when he started doing
these reports, they created a whole lot of rules, such
as saying that the grocery store has to sell to
its competitors so that they can compete with them at
a greed price. And a whole lot of things got
put in place. And what's interesting about the report is
the only place where things seem to be getting a
(01:57):
little bit better is there's a bit more competition in Auckland,
because you've got your ethnic supermarkets, you've got your Pharaoh Fresh,
you've got your your cost Co. All of a sudden,
you see, maybe a light bulb goes on. What we
need is more competitors and more competition. But actually the
(02:17):
more rules and regulations you put on them, the less
likely that is. So what I would say is yep,
big problem, big political issue. But what we actually need
to do is take the real lesson, which is more
regulation has really done much. What does tend to work
is getting more competitors in. And you know my view,
we need to open up investment from overseas because there's
(02:39):
chances are the competitors going to come from there. So
we're doing that with the OA. We're going to change
resource management law so it's actually easy to build things.
So you can imagine an older for example, coming in
and building the distribution centers, building the stores and the framework.
But those are not putting in more rules. It's actually
taking the rules away, so it's easier to get more competition.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
You may we should probably make it clear that you
weren't in support of the creation of the growtherymmissioner in
the first place. I'm presuming David, that your mind hasn't
changed regarding that role.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
No, well, I don't think that it was a good
idea to create them. That You've got to remember. Also,
I'm part of a comfort So ultimately, what are our
government supports? I support, But you know a few people
of usked or do you advocate for less regulation and
later rules so that you can get more business done? Well, yes,
(03:33):
I do. And I just make a point about values that.
You know, it's kind of easy to point out what's
wrong and say it's those guys alter and I've been
too successful, but that's too big, that've made too much money.
But I just feel at some point in New Zealand,
we're going to have to start asking ourselves, okay, sure,
how do we make it better? Oh?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I think that's exactly what people want to hear. As
a shopper, I would really like to know to see
some tangible difference in the next few months. You know,
when I leave the supermarket the impact it has on
my wallet. You made a comment that of regulation prices,
we would already have the cheapest groceries in the world.
So do you think that supermarkets are already overregulated or
are we regulating the wrong things.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I think a whole economy is overregulated, and that's why
the government has a ministry for regulation. At the sport
it's only quity people, but you've got someone out of
the thirty government departments who's actually saying to the others,
wait a minute. People are spending too much time on
rules and regulations and they're not spending enough time on
(04:37):
being able to get on with doing whatever it is
that I'm doing. I mean, I'm actually just on a
Sunday morning walk and I'm opposite an early childhood center
in the EPSOM electorate. I remember visiting it and they
told me that every morning they wake up they have
to follow three hundred and three rules. And people wonder
why we have cost problems with early childhood. The people
(04:59):
they're spend too much time on compliance, not enough time
bringing up, looking after and expanding the minds of small children.
So yes, I would say right across the board, we're overregulated,
and the solution to many of our problems is to
reduce the compliance time and increase their productive time.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So if we're going to create more legitimate competition without
the regulation and as you said, you know, open up
to overseas investments, clear up the resource management, make that
easier bringing competition. None of that is going to happen overnight.
That's long term thinking to have an impact on our
grocery sector, isn't it? Is there not a place for
(05:37):
what the Grocery Commissioner is suggesting when he is going
to consider asking, you know, can we require the major
supermarkets to help to sell wholesale products to their small
rivals at the same rate that they sell it to
their stores. Is that not a simpler, quicker way of
creating some competition, Should it not also be.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Considered Well, we have a version of that now, and
you know it appears to have worked. I went to
the opening of a supermarket Hamilton about six months ago,
which has benefited. Some of their products come from that,
so they've gone out as an independent grosser. But the
flip side of it is when Costco came to town,
(06:17):
they gave them a five year exemption from the requirement
to sell to others because Costco said, look, this is
just nuts. We got to work out the price of everything,
what's a reasonable price to deliver it, how soon do
they want it, what sort of batch sizes are they having.
All of that's going to affect the price. Of course, Actually,
we're not going to come to New Zealand if you
(06:38):
make us do that. So I just make the point
that you know, sure, you can say it's a great idea.
The government will step in and force some companies to
sell to other companies at a quote unquote fair price,
But when it comes to calculating that price, it's another
The bureaucracy and see if it really was there. And
actually the working example is that when we did get
(06:58):
a big competitor who I think we need a lot
more of the likes of Costco, they actually had to
be exempted from that rule. Because these rules don't just
help competition, they also hither it. Now, I just make
the point that there's a lot of areas where people
will say, well, the solution to this is going to
take five years. I point to the electricity situation. There's
(07:19):
no government can get more water in the dams overnight.
There are things you can do to get more investment
and energy, but that takes years. I look at the
housing situation. You know there's not a lot you can
do to get an extra fifty thousand houses built overnight.
I think most of the big problems that New Zealand
faces actually have multi year solutions. And then someone comes
(07:43):
along and says, and I'm not blaming you, but you say, oh,
I want something that works tomorrow. And then I say, well, yes,
but that won't actually solve the problem. And there will
always be some people I say, I don't care. I
just want action. I think, to be honest, if we're
going to get to be the place where we all
know New Zealand can and should we all dream more.
Then it is going to take some sort of more
(08:03):
on us thinking and so longer ser them thinking to
solve some of these issues.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Commerce Minister Andrew Bailey has backed the report and supported
the approach of the commissioner. Do you think he's jumped
the gun on those comments.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Well, I've seen what Andrews said officially, you know, his
press release on the Beehive website says that actually he's
actual less read tape and less regulation. So that a
few people in the media have tried to say that
me and Andrew are saying different things. I'm not sure
we are. But in any event, what neants to happen
if the government is going to make any policy changes
(08:37):
in response to the Grocery Commissioner's suggestions, then what happens
that's got to actually come to Cabinet, have the discussion,
make the agreement, and then potentially take a law to
Parliament that then gets debated by all the MPs, not
just the government, and if that passes through then it
becomes a law. So there's a bit of water to
(08:58):
go under the bridge. But I've just you know, when
people have asked me, I've just said, well, you know,
we have actually tried putting more rules and regulations on them.
Even the guy that's responsible for putting them on says
it hasn't worked. So maybe it's time to you know,
as they say, ty Hall, and think about all what
is the underlying problem? How can we solve it? And
I would say it's easier to invest from overseas and
(09:21):
easier to develop property under resource management law, and the
government is actually taking those things on I think, you know,
quite quite boldly, and I think it's long overdue.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Minister. Thanks so much for your time. Appreciate the chattel.
Let you get back to your walk. It's a nice
morning out there.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Isn't Yeah. Yeah, well look spring spring is here, and
you know the temperatures are getting higher and inflation and
interest rates are slowly getting lower. So I know it's
been a bloody tough winter, but I think we are
starting to turn the corner.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Thank you so much. That was David Seymour.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
live to News Talks. It'd be from nine am Sunday
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.