December 7, 2024 • 13 mins
There's hopes the next Climate Change Commissioner can continue to hold the Government to account on climate action.
Incumbent Rod Carr is leaving the role today after five years, having led the commission since its establishment in 2019.
Carr says the nation is making progress - but it's not moving as quickly as it should be.
"Our domestic emissions were always going to be bigger than what we claimed we would be entitled to take from the atmosphere. That was originally slated to be more than 200 million tonnes over this decade - it looks like that gap has closed."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
After five years, Climate Change Commission Chair Rod car leaves
the role today. As he departs, I want to find
out where he thinks we're at in terms of meeting
climate targets, and he joins me.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Now, Rod, good morning, Good morning, Kiertra. Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Is this your final responsibility as the Climate Change Commissioner?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Yes, it is nailed, my last official duty.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Oh and it's lovely to have you with us. Tell
me where is New Zealand at in terms of our
climate targets.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Look, we've started, we're making progress, and we're not doing
as fast or as far as we need it.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So how are we looking to fulfill our twenty thirty
Paris commitment?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Well, the twenty thirty Paris commitment just to help listers
remember as a promise that started in twenty fifteen under
previous governments. That said then believes the contribution it needs
to make to hold global temperature rises well below two
degrees and as close to one point five as possible
(01:17):
is a claim to emit a certain amount of greenhouse
gases during this So we got to choose the number,
and we got to say that's what we think our
entitlement is. The trouble is that our domestic emissions were
always going to be bigger than what we claimed we
would be entitled to take from the atmosphere. The gap
(01:40):
was originally estimated to me more than two hundred million tons.
Over this decade. It looks like that gap has closed
to about one hundred million times this decade. The difference
between what we think we can do domestically and what
we promised the international community we would do internationally. The
challengem Neuze is how do you square that circle? And
(02:02):
you can reduce our obligation to others by doing more ourselves.
But we've run out of time to plant trees this
decade that would make a difference. So it's gross emissions reductions.
It's burning less coal, burning less fossil gas, burning less
petrol to drive our stuff around and having lower agricultural admissions,
(02:23):
or doing offshore cooperation because we think it would be
cheaper for New Zealand to help someone else do more
than they would have done rather than incur the cost
of doing it ourselves.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
What does that involve?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, Originally, the contemplation was by now there'd be some
sort of market for international credits, and the really hasn't
developed a market for international credits. A number of countries
have done bilateral agreements, so the swisted one with Chile,
I believe, and with South Africa where they said we
(02:57):
will pay for I think in the South African case
it was solar farms if you promise and actually turn
off a coul fired powers nation that you would otherwise
have been running. So those are the kind of bilateral
deals that don't involve trading and international credits. So what it.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Sounds like, we know what we need to do, So
how do we do that faster?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
You've put your finger on it. Domestically, we have to
reduce the combustion of fossil fuels in the open air
without permanent carbon capture and storage. And that's about the
stuff we burn to make electricity, the stuff we burn
in industry, and the stuff we burn at home. So
how do we go faster? The economics now make getting
(03:45):
off fossil fuels in family homes really quite compelling, and
given the major banks all have for homeowners access to
treat loans, that's just a matter of people doing their
homework and making some choices. When it comes to businesses,
it now is uneconomic to use coal to heat for industry.
(04:08):
There are much cheaper alternatives, so the economics of that
will drive pack change. And then when it comes to agriculture,
we now know that some land use practices, feeding practice
and different breeds of animals are also associated with lower emissions.
So while in the future we need new technology, in
the present we need to take up know in technology Lord,
(04:32):
where does.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
New Zealand certain terms of emissions on a global scale?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, because we are a little country with a small
number of people, the total emissions are pretty small. But
there are one hundred countries in the world whose emissions
are kind of as small as ours, either in total
or on a per capita basis. So little countries make
up about a quarter of global emissions. So you can't
(04:57):
just tell all the little countries they get a free
pass because all the little ones are as big as
one of the big ones.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Are all the little ones approaching this the same, whether
in a similar way that we are or the simmer.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Attitude, It depends whether they are developing or developed countries.
The developing countries make the point that they didn't contribute
to this problem, and therefore those who are richer and
more developed have more opportunities to reduce their emissions, and
the developing countries see the need for reductions. One hundred
(05:29):
and ninety six countries have signed up for commitments under
the Paris Agreement. But if you don't have many emissions
because you're a developing country, or you don't have very
much money, there may not be much you can do.
What the world observes is developed countries like New Zealand
that can afford technologies that already exist need to do
(05:53):
the job right.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
How are things under this government? Have the priorities or
policies in regards to climate changed.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Your government was very clear on coming into office that
they were committed to the institutional arrangements that Parliament put
in place in twenty nineteen. And remember one hundred and
nineteen members, all those present voted for the institutional arrangements.
That is, an independent climate change commission that would give expert,
(06:21):
evidence based advice to a government of the day. And
that advice doesn't have to be taken, but it has
to be provided in a way that all New Zealanders
consented and the government has an obligation to respond to
it in a timely manner, so the government is committed
to that. They also said they were committed to achieving
our twenty fifty target, which is net zero for all
(06:43):
long life gases into twenty four to forty seven percent
production in the biogenic mutain target emissions. So they committed
to that. And they also signed up for the first
three emissions budgets which had been put in place by
the previous governments. So that's the total greenhouse fas emissions
net of removals by forests that would be achieved between
(07:04):
now and twenty thirty five. So they really did adopt
quite a substantial series of commitments, and they have recently
and repeatedly said they would meet their international obligations under
the Paris Agreement that reserve the right to determine just
how they will do that.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Okay, so are you from the actions that you've seen,
do they seem to be following on what they've said
they're going to do.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
They also said, lot there are some things about the
way the previous government was approaching meeting these budgets and
targets that we don't like. So we've undone those things,
and shortly they will reduce their plan, which is their
way of achieving the budgets and targets they have agreed
(07:50):
to me and all New Zealanders will get to see
that plan, and those with experts advice will be able
to say whether they think the plan adds up to
meeting the budgets.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Okay, so you're feeling more or less encouraged under this government.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Look, I think every government has different approach. Some governments
want to see prices and markets and devolved decision making
play a larger part, and other governments perhaps are less
reluctant to allow losses and costs to lie where they
fall under market prices and would prefer more directed in prevention.
(08:25):
Know the party. Neither government is going for a corner
solution of all prices and only prices, or all regulations
and regulations. They live in a next economy and it
takes judgment by our elective leaders to make those trade offs,
and we get to choose which bundle of goodies we like.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Lord, is there a willingness from the public to do
what is required to meet the targets? That does feel
like there's a little bit of climate fatigue ticking.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
In yes, and I understand that. And if I had
one regret that I didn't understand sooner that New Zealanders
see and have come to see their climate responsibilities as
an obligation and a costly it is not. It actually
(09:08):
turns out the work that the Commission has done says
that this transition to lower emissions is affordable for New Zealand,
it has huge economic benefits in terms of household energy
builds and our health status, and that actually there are
very real opportunities for New Zealand to be better off
if we stop combusting fossil fuels in the open air,
(09:31):
then we stop planting pine trees everywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
So rod is maybe a little bit of your your
something that you might have done differently in this role.
Is Is it about communication and the way information is presented.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Definitely that has a part to play. We all are
to some extent at being in our own self interest,
our interests as individuals, business owners these communities, and we
connect more closely with the things that are closest to us.
So helping people see what's in it for them is
actually quite important. And those who are going to be
(10:06):
persuaded by the arguments that you have an obligation to
do this because of unborn generations to come, or you
have an obligation to do this because of our specific
islands will go underwater. Now, if those were persuasive arguments,
everybody could have been persuaded by Now, I think we
now need to get homeowners to understand fuers that their
(10:27):
energy bills will be lower under electrication than undercost or fuels,
that their transport costs will be lower in either very
lower missions vehicles or bat to electric cars which were
already available to them. And yet it isn't that everybody
can take up all those technologies. Tenants in houses face
the challenge that their landlord doesn't have really much of
(10:50):
an this center to deliver low energy cost to that household.
And not everybody can go to their bank can borrow
the money to put solar panels on their room. But
many who have not yet done that and can do that,
should do that. Rod.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
If you look back on for the last five years,
what are you happy about? What you and the Commission
has achieved.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well, I think the Commission has delivered what Parliament asked.
Parliament asked establish an organization which is independent that gathers
data and creates information, that builds models to help us
integrate this data, that engages with the community and consults
in the development of its space. Then provides advice to
(11:35):
the government and follows up with monitoring progress not against
its advice, but against the decisions that the governments of
the data are taken. So the Commission has no power
to tell anybody to do anything. We set no prices,
create no levees, extract no revenue, have no balancehip. So
(11:56):
we are literally telling governments, if you do these series
of things, you could reasonly expect this type of outcome. Now, government,
you make choices, but the choices got to wear that.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So Rod, when you finish this interview and you're officially finished,
your your your role here is the chair. What next?
What are you up to.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Later to after the pool shops, visit chemicals for the pool.
We've got solar panels on our house four years ago,
and the last call for the electricity week before we
send it to the good is to swing hole which
is now thirty two degrees. The grand terms, it's a
bath cool. So that's the kind of an energy technology
(12:41):
that is available, at least for some people.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
These days and I think more new Zealanders will pop.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
On to the options that could be Oh Rod, but
we really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you so much.
And that was Climate Change Commission Chair Rodka, who leaves
the role today after five years.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudgin, listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the poodcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
After five years, Climate Change Commission Chair Rod car leaves
the role today. As he departs, I want to find
out where he thinks we're at in terms of meeting
climate targets, and he joins me.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Now, Rod, good morning, Good morning, Kiertra. Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Is this your final responsibility as the Climate Change Commissioner?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Yes, it is nailed, my last official duty.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Oh and it's lovely to have you with us. Tell
me where is New Zealand at in terms of our
climate targets.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Look, we've started, we're making progress, and we're not doing
as fast or as far as we need it.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So how are we looking to fulfill our twenty thirty
Paris commitment?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Well, the twenty thirty Paris commitment just to help listers
remember as a promise that started in twenty fifteen under
previous governments. That said then believes the contribution it needs
to make to hold global temperature rises well below two
degrees and as close to one point five as possible
(01:17):
is a claim to emit a certain amount of greenhouse
gases during this So we got to choose the number,
and we got to say that's what we think our
entitlement is. The trouble is that our domestic emissions were
always going to be bigger than what we claimed we
would be entitled to take from the atmosphere. The gap
(01:40):
was originally estimated to me more than two hundred million tons.
Over this decade. It looks like that gap has closed
to about one hundred million times this decade. The difference
between what we think we can do domestically and what
we promised the international community we would do internationally. The
challengem Neuze is how do you square that circle? And
(02:02):
you can reduce our obligation to others by doing more ourselves.
But we've run out of time to plant trees this
decade that would make a difference. So it's gross emissions reductions.
It's burning less coal, burning less fossil gas, burning less
petrol to drive our stuff around and having lower agricultural admissions,
(02:23):
or doing offshore cooperation because we think it would be
cheaper for New Zealand to help someone else do more
than they would have done rather than incur the cost
of doing it ourselves.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
What does that involve?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, Originally, the contemplation was by now there'd be some
sort of market for international credits, and the really hasn't
developed a market for international credits. A number of countries
have done bilateral agreements, so the swisted one with Chile,
I believe, and with South Africa where they said we
(02:57):
will pay for I think in the South African case
it was solar farms if you promise and actually turn
off a coul fired powers nation that you would otherwise
have been running. So those are the kind of bilateral
deals that don't involve trading and international credits. So what it.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Sounds like, we know what we need to do, So
how do we do that faster?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
You've put your finger on it. Domestically, we have to
reduce the combustion of fossil fuels in the open air
without permanent carbon capture and storage. And that's about the
stuff we burn to make electricity, the stuff we burn
in industry, and the stuff we burn at home. So
how do we go faster? The economics now make getting
(03:45):
off fossil fuels in family homes really quite compelling, and
given the major banks all have for homeowners access to
treat loans, that's just a matter of people doing their
homework and making some choices. When it comes to businesses,
it now is uneconomic to use coal to heat for industry.
(04:08):
There are much cheaper alternatives, so the economics of that
will drive pack change. And then when it comes to agriculture,
we now know that some land use practices, feeding practice
and different breeds of animals are also associated with lower emissions.
So while in the future we need new technology, in
the present we need to take up know in technology Lord,
(04:32):
where does.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
New Zealand certain terms of emissions on a global scale?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, because we are a little country with a small
number of people, the total emissions are pretty small. But
there are one hundred countries in the world whose emissions
are kind of as small as ours, either in total
or on a per capita basis. So little countries make
up about a quarter of global emissions. So you can't
(04:57):
just tell all the little countries they get a free
pass because all the little ones are as big as
one of the big ones.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Are all the little ones approaching this the same, whether
in a similar way that we are or the simmer.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Attitude, It depends whether they are developing or developed countries.
The developing countries make the point that they didn't contribute
to this problem, and therefore those who are richer and
more developed have more opportunities to reduce their emissions, and
the developing countries see the need for reductions. One hundred
(05:29):
and ninety six countries have signed up for commitments under
the Paris Agreement. But if you don't have many emissions
because you're a developing country, or you don't have very
much money, there may not be much you can do.
What the world observes is developed countries like New Zealand
that can afford technologies that already exist need to do
(05:53):
the job right.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
How are things under this government? Have the priorities or
policies in regards to climate changed.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Your government was very clear on coming into office that
they were committed to the institutional arrangements that Parliament put
in place in twenty nineteen. And remember one hundred and
nineteen members, all those present voted for the institutional arrangements.
That is, an independent climate change commission that would give expert,
(06:21):
evidence based advice to a government of the day. And
that advice doesn't have to be taken, but it has
to be provided in a way that all New Zealanders
consented and the government has an obligation to respond to
it in a timely manner, so the government is committed
to that. They also said they were committed to achieving
our twenty fifty target, which is net zero for all
(06:43):
long life gases into twenty four to forty seven percent
production in the biogenic mutain target emissions. So they committed
to that. And they also signed up for the first
three emissions budgets which had been put in place by
the previous governments. So that's the total greenhouse fas emissions
net of removals by forests that would be achieved between
(07:04):
now and twenty thirty five. So they really did adopt
quite a substantial series of commitments, and they have recently
and repeatedly said they would meet their international obligations under
the Paris Agreement that reserve the right to determine just
how they will do that.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Okay, so are you from the actions that you've seen,
do they seem to be following on what they've said
they're going to do.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
They also said, lot there are some things about the
way the previous government was approaching meeting these budgets and
targets that we don't like. So we've undone those things,
and shortly they will reduce their plan, which is their
way of achieving the budgets and targets they have agreed
(07:50):
to me and all New Zealanders will get to see
that plan, and those with experts advice will be able
to say whether they think the plan adds up to
meeting the budgets.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Okay, so you're feeling more or less encouraged under this government.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Look, I think every government has different approach. Some governments
want to see prices and markets and devolved decision making
play a larger part, and other governments perhaps are less
reluctant to allow losses and costs to lie where they
fall under market prices and would prefer more directed in prevention.
(08:25):
Know the party. Neither government is going for a corner
solution of all prices and only prices, or all regulations
and regulations. They live in a next economy and it
takes judgment by our elective leaders to make those trade offs,
and we get to choose which bundle of goodies we like.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Lord, is there a willingness from the public to do
what is required to meet the targets? That does feel
like there's a little bit of climate fatigue ticking.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
In yes, and I understand that. And if I had
one regret that I didn't understand sooner that New Zealanders
see and have come to see their climate responsibilities as
an obligation and a costly it is not. It actually
(09:08):
turns out the work that the Commission has done says
that this transition to lower emissions is affordable for New Zealand,
it has huge economic benefits in terms of household energy
builds and our health status, and that actually there are
very real opportunities for New Zealand to be better off
if we stop combusting fossil fuels in the open air,
(09:31):
then we stop planting pine trees everywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
So rod is maybe a little bit of your your
something that you might have done differently in this role.
Is Is it about communication and the way information is presented.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Definitely that has a part to play. We all are
to some extent at being in our own self interest,
our interests as individuals, business owners these communities, and we
connect more closely with the things that are closest to us.
So helping people see what's in it for them is
actually quite important. And those who are going to be
(10:06):
persuaded by the arguments that you have an obligation to
do this because of unborn generations to come, or you
have an obligation to do this because of our specific
islands will go underwater. Now, if those were persuasive arguments,
everybody could have been persuaded by Now, I think we
now need to get homeowners to understand fuers that their
(10:27):
energy bills will be lower under electrication than undercost or fuels,
that their transport costs will be lower in either very
lower missions vehicles or bat to electric cars which were
already available to them. And yet it isn't that everybody
can take up all those technologies. Tenants in houses face
the challenge that their landlord doesn't have really much of
(10:50):
an this center to deliver low energy cost to that household.
And not everybody can go to their bank can borrow
the money to put solar panels on their room. But
many who have not yet done that and can do that,
should do that. Rod.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
If you look back on for the last five years,
what are you happy about? What you and the Commission
has achieved.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well, I think the Commission has delivered what Parliament asked.
Parliament asked establish an organization which is independent that gathers
data and creates information, that builds models to help us
integrate this data, that engages with the community and consults
in the development of its space. Then provides advice to
(11:35):
the government and follows up with monitoring progress not against
its advice, but against the decisions that the governments of
the data are taken. So the Commission has no power
to tell anybody to do anything. We set no prices,
create no levees, extract no revenue, have no balancehip. So
(11:56):
we are literally telling governments, if you do these series
of things, you could reasonly expect this type of outcome. Now, government,
you make choices, but the choices got to wear that.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So Rod, when you finish this interview and you're officially finished,
your your your role here is the chair. What next?
What are you up to.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Later to after the pool shops, visit chemicals for the pool.
We've got solar panels on our house four years ago,
and the last call for the electricity week before we
send it to the good is to swing hole which
is now thirty two degrees. The grand terms, it's a
bath cool. So that's the kind of an energy technology
(12:41):
that is available, at least for some people.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
These days and I think more new Zealanders will pop.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
On to the options that could be Oh Rod, but
we really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you so much.
And that was Climate Change Commission Chair Rodka, who leaves
the role today after five years.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudgin, listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the poodcast on iHeartRadio.
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