Steven Joyce: former Finance Minister on the implications of Australia and Canada's election results

Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's re-election is cementing a belief US policy is influencing voters abroad. 

The Labor Party has secured a historic, and comfortable win over Peter Dutton's Liberal National Coalition - with Dutton himself ousted from his own Queensland seat. 

Over in Canada, Mark Carney secured the role of Prime Minister - with experts claiming anti-Trump sentiment helped propel his win.

Former Finance Minister Steven Joyce says the political right has learned the same lesson as the left about online 'echo chambers'.

"The broad middle of politics is much more pragmatic about what they want to see happen in the world, they're not so much interested in the culture wars - be they on the left or on the right."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News talks 'b SO.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
In the space of the week, we've seen both Canada
and now Australia reelect their incumbents center left governments. Are
we seeing a swing away from Trump style politics, the
Trump slump as it's been labeled to discuss. I'm joined
by former New Zealand minister and National Party MP Steven Joyce.
Good morning, Stephen, Thanks for your time this morning.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
No worries. Francesca, how are you.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm very good, thank you, especially after that very colorful
description of the Murray It's okay, no pressure. Are we
seeing a big swing in world politics here? Are there
links between these two victories? Do you think?

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah? I think there is, and not the way some
people would think, which is just sort of a wipeout
of the right. I think it is more that sort
of mega style populist politics, which I think is being
driven more by social social media in terms of people
believing it to be pop pillar and then they find

(01:08):
out later it isn't. And I think that's the same
as what happened to the left to be frank and
unfortunately from the rights perspective. They're learning the same lesson
the left. In between twenty seventeen twenty twenty two, Justin Trudeau,
Ja Cinder Radern and others all convinced themselves that their
view was the only view that matters. I think partly

(01:30):
off the back of what I call the social media
echo chamber, which is fundamentally that you only hear the
views of people that identify with you. There's been a
big switch round and now we're going the other way,
and the right as if you like, got hold of
social media and it's created an echo chamber of its
own now, starting with Elon Musk and x and people

(01:53):
convince themselves that, oh, the whole world agrees with us,
and then they find out that actually there's a broad
middle which never engages with social media. And this is
applies to both the left and the right. And social
media is sober guy and so so all encompassing that
you think that you have found a tribe, a large tribe,

(02:13):
that agrees with you, but actually the broad middle of
politics is much more pragmatic about what they want to
see happen in the world. They're not so much interested
in the culture wars, but they on the left or
right actually just want to get ahead for their families,
and that's the middle. And I think what we've seen
in these two elections is the middle has asserted itself

(02:35):
and said, right, this is broadly what we want, and
this is the crowd we think are going to be
best suiting us at this time. Now, it doesn't mean
it's going to continue. I'm not arguing that the left
has got a monopoly on this. I think they probably
had to learn the lesson three of four years ago.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
It's interesting, though, isn't it, Because neither party was in
a good position to win their respective elections if you
look at Canada and Australia, but it almost felt like
it was a last minute swing saw them do.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
So that point, I mean justin Trudeau was gone for
all money. He represented that sort of left identity that
people have had enough of and so he was gone.
And then Carney, when you look at it, he actually
swung right away from Trudeau's a legacy if you like.
He canceled a whole lot of stuff. He made it

(03:20):
very clear that he was about the center. He had
the advantage, of course, of Trump attacking Canada, which meant
he could lay out a store. But that applied to
his opponent as well, except that his opponent couldn't capitalize
on that. So that was Canada and in Australia similar
sorts of issues they had. Now Albanezy was not popular.

(03:40):
Elbow was struggling to survive this first term. He looked sluggish,
he looked slow, and then and then he actually hued
to the center. He dropped all the voice stuff and
he started talking about costs of living. He went into
the election with a better tax package than the Liberals,
you know, in other words, he was going to cut

(04:00):
taxes and they were opposing it, which is nuts. But
he'd basically said, oh, all the centers where it's out,
I better go after them, and he did a good
job of that. There's no denying it.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
The Trump slump. Is it a thing? Do you think
we're seeing an active move away from the style of politics.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
I think we're seeing an active realization that some of
the simple ideas of Donald Trump and his crew are
not going to work, and he's back pedaling rapidly. And
I think people are sort of realizing that, you know,
you put tariffs on everybody, fundamentally your costs go up.

(04:37):
And your consumers pay more, and it gets harder and
people lose their jobs and so on and so forth.
And he's backpedaling madly at this point. And I think
it's what happens when you know, and again, it can
happen on the left or right. You get sort of
slogan type politics which are really sort of you know,
we'll tax the ritual will or well, well, well we'll

(05:00):
put the tariffs up and the world cannot pay us
money and it'll be brilliant. I mean, it's the sort
of stuff you hear in a taxi or in a pub.
You just don't expect it to turn up necessarily in
the president of the United States. It has. And so
now we're in the process of working out that there's
a reason that these sorts of suggestions stay in the
pub or in the taxi, and that's because they don't
turn out to be that practical.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Steven, it's a long way out. But does this give
us any insights that could play into the New Zealand
election next year?

Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah? I think so. I think well only in the
sense that it reminds all politicians that the center is
where elections are won and lost. The playing to your
own based crowd only gets you so far. And that's
a little bit different than the MMP in New Zealand
because we have parties that can on the left and right,

(05:49):
that can play to their own crowd. But the battle's
won in the center, and that's where labor and national
and to some degree in New Zealand first play and
that's where that's where the battle is won. That doesn't
mean you, you know, people would say, oh, maybe that
means you can't do anything adventurous policy wise, and that's
not true, because there are lots of big issues that

(06:09):
need to be solved and some of them will involve
significant new policy initiatives. But what it does mean is
that you actually have to You actually have to persuade
the broad middle that these are the right moves. It's
not enough to persuade social media and everybody who's on
social media that it's a good idea, because they will
tell you it's a brilliant idea and then you'll lose.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Stephen One, I've got you this Aussie result. Does it
have an impact on our relationship with OZ or is
it just business as usual?

Speaker 3 (06:37):
No? I don't think it has an impact. It's interesting
between us in on in Australia. You know, we know
politicians reasonably well on both sides of the fence. I
actually know Anthony Alberanezi quite well from when we were
both Transport ministers and then subsequently when he was leader
of the Opposition. We get on pretty well. We disagree

(06:57):
on politics but on policy, but we get on pretty well.
He's a very friendly guy to New Zealand in the
same way I mean that probably dread the comparison, but
in the same way Scott Morrison was before him. He
understands New Zealand and New Zealanders. So I don't see
it massively changing, and there is anyway this sort of
fraternal thing that we have between our two countries.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Stephen Joyce, thank you very much for your time this morning.
Have we interrupted the bike rider?

Speaker 3 (07:24):
Have you finished the bike ride had finished and arduous
bike rider. I was riding along with the daughter.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
The best, the best kind. You were doing hard the
best kind of bike ride. Thank you so much for
your time. That was Stephen Joyce.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks the b from nine am Sunday
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,