June 28, 2025 • 9 mins
A spate of new sentencing reforms will take effect today, including the sentence discount caps that promise to restore 'real consequences' for crime.
As part of the reforms, judges won't be able to reduce an offender's sentence by more than 40 percent for mitigating factors.
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says the Government's top priority is to restore law and order.
"Remember, people were very worried about disorder in their communities and streets and high levels of crime - and over the last 18 months, we've been doing a lot of things. But a big part of it is about ensuring there are real consequences for crime."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks a'b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Another suite of the government's tough on crime policies come
into effect today. This is a sentencing reform. They include
capping discounts judges can apply to forty percent, encouraging the
use of cumulative sentences, and a sliding scale of discounts
for guilty Please. On top of that, we have new
aggravating factors for judges to consider. There have been critics
of the reforms, as they argue this takes away the
(00:33):
power and judgment of the courts. Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith
is with us. Thanks so much for your time this morning. Minister,
Good morning, good morning, good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
How are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thank you. Now the discount changes and the capping are
probably the big controversy. Why have you decided to bring
those in?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Well, look, I mean the government's overall priority is to
restore law and order. Remember, people were very worried about
disorder in their community in streets and high levels of crime,
and over the last eighteen months we've been doing a
whole lot of things. A big part of it is
about ensuring that there are real consequences for crime, and
(01:11):
I think a lot of people were frustrated, you know,
reading about people being convicted of serious crimes like violent
assault or rape and then the judge discounting the sentence
there or a whole lot of reasons and the ending
up with a very light sentence at the end, and
then people are left feeling, well, actually, the consequences don't
really match the crime, and so what we've done is
(01:34):
put a limit on that discount so that people will get,
you know, a significant sentence if they do a significantly
bad crime.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So the sentence discounts are cap to forty percent. That
still feels quite high.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Well yes, but I mean the biggest discount that you
always need to have available is for pleading guilty, just
in terms of the overall efficiency of the courts and
the fact that you know, if you plead guilty, you
remove the victim of the crime having to go through
the whole process, sometimes extending for years to get through that.
(02:09):
And we've also got a parallel challenge which is trying
to speed up the processes of the court. So we
always want to have a discount of up to twenty
five percent for pleading guilty. But one of the changes
that we're making is that there was getting into a
habit where people were sometimes getting that big discount almost
on the morning of the trial, and so we're changing
it so that if you plead guilty at the earliest possibility,
(02:31):
yes you get twenty five percent potentially, but if you
plead guilty on the morning of the trial, you'd only
get five percent.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So do we actually have quite a problem with late
stage guilty please?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Ah. Yes, there's been a lot of that, and you know,
we've got big challenges right across the courts to try
and speed up the processes of justice so that people
can get on with their lives and get things resolved
and move on. There's been huge delays that were made
worse through COVID, and we've got a lot of efforts
trying to speed that up now. But fundamentally, this legislation
is about sending a very clear message that you know,
(03:04):
what had developed into it almost culture of excuses. You know,
if somebody beat somebody up or stole something from them,
it wasn't really their fault. It was you know, it
was because of things that had happened or something at
this or something that and our view is that obviously
people have to be personally responsible for their actions. Of course,
you've got to be conscious of the broader social challenges
(03:26):
that many people face. But if you're not holding people
accountable for their actions, then there's no way forward because
it just keeps on happening again and again and again.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
So what are you expecting of judges now? Is everybody
very clear about these expectations. We're going to have consistency?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Well, yes, I mean the judges still have some discretion,
of course, up to up to forty percent, but there's
an arrower band and so we're not going to we
won't be seeing the massive discounts that were sometimes seen
in the past. And so it's about Parliament sending a message.
Some people have said, oh, well, you know, that's sort
of interfering with the independence of the judiciary. It's not.
(04:04):
Parliament is responsible for the Sentence Act, you know, and
we could have at the moment we have a maximum
penalty and discretion underneath that maximum penalty. The Parliament could
just as easily have a mandatory sentence, or a minimum sentence,
or a whole lot of things. What we've decided to
do is just keep with the basic structure of the
maximum sentence with some discretion, but we want to limit
(04:25):
that discretion so as to send a message from Parliament
that we want a tougher response.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
When it comes to the culative sentencing for offenses committed
while on bail, in custody or on parole. You're encouraging
the use of these is that essentially those sort of
saying that judges, come on, you need to do this.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yes, I mean cumulative sentences. You know, if you've done
two crimes with a seven year sentence, you'd get fourteen
in total if you did one after the other. Now,
there are sort of real consequences for the prison population
and all that. But if you don't have any consequence
for your second offense, you've you're in jail, and there
(05:08):
are no consequences for beating up a prison guard as
a second offense, well then that's that's obviously a big problem.
So there's been a tendency over the past few years
for everything just to be added up into one offense,
and we're wanting to send a message that actually the
reality is, I mean, if you go back to what
we're trying to achieve, we want our whole goal and
(05:30):
justice is to have fewer victims of crime. That's a
number one goal. We want to reduce the number of
victims of crime. We're making good progress on that. But
you know, if you're going to do that, you obvious
starting point is that very small number of New Zealanders
who create multiple victims again and again and again, and
you all know about it. And so what we're trying
(05:50):
to do with the toughest sentencing framework is to frankly
keep that very small group of repeat offenders out of
public circulation for longer so that they can't create more victims.
It's what three strikes is about. But you know that's
the punitive, so it's not the only thing we're doing.
We're also putting some extra resources into better rehabilitation and
(06:12):
trying to deal with some of some of those long
term issues as well. You've got to do you can't
do one or the other, You've got to do both.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You mentioned prison population there. Obviously, Initially, these new sentencing
reforms could potentially mean we're going to see longer sentences,
We're going to have people get locked up for longer.
Are we ready for that? Are we prepared for that?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Can we do that yes, yes, yes, And you know,
our first budget we put extra resources into the one
point nine billion actually into having a new prison opened
up in Why Carrier and expanding room in our prison sentence.
I mean our goal. I mean, the previous government had
(06:55):
a goal of reducing the prison population no matter what happened,
and that was that's all very well, everybody wants to
have fewer people in prison, but it's got to follow
an actual drop and crime and you know, and so
that's what I think what led to the real concern
and sense of disorder was that we have were having
a big increase in actual crime and a reduction in
people in prison, and that that that that didn't compute.
(07:18):
And so yes, we're we're we're we're anticipating that prison
population will continue to rise for a while. We're budgeted
for that, but we think it's justified in order to
keep New Zealanders safe.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And you're confident that this is all going to restore
public confidence and in the courts and the system and
feeling safer.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Well, it's it's one one part of you know, many
things that we're doing to you know, along with three strikes,
along with giving the police extra powers to deal with
gangs in our community, along with a whole lot of
things that we're doing in the retail space. It's about
consistently sending a message that the culture of excuses is over.
We're focused on holding people to account and having a
(08:00):
tough law and order response, and at the same time,
we continue to be extremely focused on dealing with all
of the long term drivers along that. I don't know
if you think of youth crime, of course, the most
important thing you can do there is get the kids
to school. And that's why I've got such a big
focus on dealing with truancy and a whole bunch of
broader social issues as well, housing, emergency housing. All those
(08:21):
things are significant. But if you're not sending a clear
message that they're going to be real consequences for crime,
we're going to hold you to account and we're not
going to discount away your sentences with a whole lot
of excuses, apologizing ten times for ten different crimes and
all that sort of stuff. That's over.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, and Paul, look, I presume if you've already committed
a crime and you have been charged but you're waiting
to go through the courts, these will not apply to you.
It will apply today if you go at a crime.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well no, well well it'll apply for any new sentencing
that's coming up. Won't be going back into previous sentence
and anything like that, but if people are before the
court being sentenced then this will apply.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Fantastic, Thank you so much for your time, Very much appreciated.
That was Justice Minister Paul Godsmith.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks a'b.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Another suite of the government's tough on crime policies come
into effect today. This is a sentencing reform. They include
capping discounts judges can apply to forty percent, encouraging the
use of cumulative sentences, and a sliding scale of discounts
for guilty Please. On top of that, we have new
aggravating factors for judges to consider. There have been critics
of the reforms, as they argue this takes away the
(00:33):
power and judgment of the courts. Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith
is with us. Thanks so much for your time this morning. Minister,
Good morning, good morning, good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
How are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thank you. Now the discount changes and the capping are
probably the big controversy. Why have you decided to bring
those in?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Well, look, I mean the government's overall priority is to
restore law and order. Remember, people were very worried about
disorder in their community in streets and high levels of crime,
and over the last eighteen months we've been doing a
whole lot of things. A big part of it is
about ensuring that there are real consequences for crime, and
(01:11):
I think a lot of people were frustrated, you know,
reading about people being convicted of serious crimes like violent
assault or rape and then the judge discounting the sentence
there or a whole lot of reasons and the ending
up with a very light sentence at the end, and
then people are left feeling, well, actually, the consequences don't
really match the crime, and so what we've done is
(01:34):
put a limit on that discount so that people will get,
you know, a significant sentence if they do a significantly
bad crime.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So the sentence discounts are cap to forty percent. That
still feels quite high.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Well yes, but I mean the biggest discount that you
always need to have available is for pleading guilty, just
in terms of the overall efficiency of the courts and
the fact that you know, if you plead guilty, you
remove the victim of the crime having to go through
the whole process, sometimes extending for years to get through that.
(02:09):
And we've also got a parallel challenge which is trying
to speed up the processes of the court. So we
always want to have a discount of up to twenty
five percent for pleading guilty. But one of the changes
that we're making is that there was getting into a
habit where people were sometimes getting that big discount almost
on the morning of the trial, and so we're changing
it so that if you plead guilty at the earliest possibility,
(02:31):
yes you get twenty five percent potentially, but if you
plead guilty on the morning of the trial, you'd only
get five percent.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So do we actually have quite a problem with late
stage guilty please?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Ah. Yes, there's been a lot of that, and you know,
we've got big challenges right across the courts to try
and speed up the processes of justice so that people
can get on with their lives and get things resolved
and move on. There's been huge delays that were made
worse through COVID, and we've got a lot of efforts
trying to speed that up now. But fundamentally, this legislation
is about sending a very clear message that you know,
(03:04):
what had developed into it almost culture of excuses. You know,
if somebody beat somebody up or stole something from them,
it wasn't really their fault. It was you know, it
was because of things that had happened or something at
this or something that and our view is that obviously
people have to be personally responsible for their actions. Of course,
you've got to be conscious of the broader social challenges
(03:26):
that many people face. But if you're not holding people
accountable for their actions, then there's no way forward because
it just keeps on happening again and again and again.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
So what are you expecting of judges now? Is everybody
very clear about these expectations. We're going to have consistency?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Well, yes, I mean the judges still have some discretion,
of course, up to up to forty percent, but there's
an arrower band and so we're not going to we
won't be seeing the massive discounts that were sometimes seen
in the past. And so it's about Parliament sending a message.
Some people have said, oh, well, you know, that's sort
of interfering with the independence of the judiciary. It's not.
(04:04):
Parliament is responsible for the Sentence Act, you know, and
we could have at the moment we have a maximum
penalty and discretion underneath that maximum penalty. The Parliament could
just as easily have a mandatory sentence, or a minimum sentence,
or a whole lot of things. What we've decided to
do is just keep with the basic structure of the
maximum sentence with some discretion, but we want to limit
(04:25):
that discretion so as to send a message from Parliament
that we want a tougher response.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
When it comes to the culative sentencing for offenses committed
while on bail, in custody or on parole. You're encouraging
the use of these is that essentially those sort of
saying that judges, come on, you need to do this.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yes, I mean cumulative sentences. You know, if you've done
two crimes with a seven year sentence, you'd get fourteen
in total if you did one after the other. Now,
there are sort of real consequences for the prison population
and all that. But if you don't have any consequence
for your second offense, you've you're in jail, and there
(05:08):
are no consequences for beating up a prison guard as
a second offense, well then that's that's obviously a big problem.
So there's been a tendency over the past few years
for everything just to be added up into one offense,
and we're wanting to send a message that actually the
reality is, I mean, if you go back to what
we're trying to achieve, we want our whole goal and
(05:30):
justice is to have fewer victims of crime. That's a
number one goal. We want to reduce the number of
victims of crime. We're making good progress on that. But
you know, if you're going to do that, you obvious
starting point is that very small number of New Zealanders
who create multiple victims again and again and again, and
you all know about it. And so what we're trying
(05:50):
to do with the toughest sentencing framework is to frankly
keep that very small group of repeat offenders out of
public circulation for longer so that they can't create more victims.
It's what three strikes is about. But you know that's
the punitive, so it's not the only thing we're doing.
We're also putting some extra resources into better rehabilitation and
(06:12):
trying to deal with some of some of those long
term issues as well. You've got to do you can't
do one or the other, You've got to do both.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You mentioned prison population there. Obviously, Initially, these new sentencing
reforms could potentially mean we're going to see longer sentences,
We're going to have people get locked up for longer.
Are we ready for that? Are we prepared for that?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Can we do that yes, yes, yes, And you know,
our first budget we put extra resources into the one
point nine billion actually into having a new prison opened
up in Why Carrier and expanding room in our prison sentence.
I mean our goal. I mean, the previous government had
(06:55):
a goal of reducing the prison population no matter what happened,
and that was that's all very well, everybody wants to
have fewer people in prison, but it's got to follow
an actual drop and crime and you know, and so
that's what I think what led to the real concern
and sense of disorder was that we have were having
a big increase in actual crime and a reduction in
people in prison, and that that that that didn't compute.
(07:18):
And so yes, we're we're we're we're anticipating that prison
population will continue to rise for a while. We're budgeted
for that, but we think it's justified in order to
keep New Zealanders safe.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And you're confident that this is all going to restore
public confidence and in the courts and the system and
feeling safer.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Well, it's it's one one part of you know, many
things that we're doing to you know, along with three strikes,
along with giving the police extra powers to deal with
gangs in our community, along with a whole lot of
things that we're doing in the retail space. It's about
consistently sending a message that the culture of excuses is over.
We're focused on holding people to account and having a
(08:00):
tough law and order response, and at the same time,
we continue to be extremely focused on dealing with all
of the long term drivers along that. I don't know
if you think of youth crime, of course, the most
important thing you can do there is get the kids
to school. And that's why I've got such a big
focus on dealing with truancy and a whole bunch of
broader social issues as well, housing, emergency housing. All those
(08:21):
things are significant. But if you're not sending a clear
message that they're going to be real consequences for crime,
we're going to hold you to account and we're not
going to discount away your sentences with a whole lot
of excuses, apologizing ten times for ten different crimes and
all that sort of stuff. That's over.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, and Paul, look, I presume if you've already committed
a crime and you have been charged but you're waiting
to go through the courts, these will not apply to you.
It will apply today if you go at a crime.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well no, well well it'll apply for any new sentencing
that's coming up. Won't be going back into previous sentence
and anything like that, but if people are before the
court being sentenced then this will apply.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Fantastic, Thank you so much for your time, Very much appreciated.
That was Justice Minister Paul Godsmith.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks it B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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